0:06

Take a ride through Northern Virginia these

0:08

days, and you might notice a very

0:10

specific kind of building. They're

0:14

these giant kind of warehouse buildings. They're

0:17

windowless, they're modern, you know,

0:20

they're sort of the size of the

0:22

height of small office buildings, but they're

0:24

just, they're popping up everywhere. Evan

0:27

Halper reports on the energy transition for

0:29

The Washington Post. He says

0:31

from the outside, these buildings might look

0:34

like your average warehouse, but

0:36

inside, it's more dystopian. It

0:39

probably looks like something you've seen in a

0:41

sci-fi movie. I mean, there's just lots

0:43

and lots of computer servers, and you know,

0:45

it's just shelf after shelf of computer equipment,

0:48

not a lot of people in there, not

0:50

a lot of employees. He's

0:53

talking about data centers, huge warehouses

0:56

full of computers that process everything

0:59

that happens online, every photo on your

1:01

iCloud, every app on your phone, and

1:04

increasingly, all the new

1:06

AI models being developed. As

1:08

Evan recently reported in The Post, all these

1:11

data centers are gobbling up a lot of

1:13

electricity, like a lot, a lot. And

1:16

as those new AI models get more

1:18

complex, they need even more power. And

1:20

the problem? There isn't enough

1:22

electricity to go around. They're running

1:25

out of power in Northern Virginia to supply

1:27

all the needs of these data centers. They

1:29

ran out in Silicon Valley a long

1:31

time ago. And so what's happening is

1:34

the companies are just moving to places where

1:36

there's power, places we never sort of expected

1:38

there to be data centers. They're

1:40

popping up all over Georgia, particularly

1:43

the Atlanta region. They're popping up in,

1:45

you know, Altoona, Iowa. They're

1:47

going to Omaha now because there was a big

1:49

power interconnect to Columbus, Ohio. So

1:52

they're just sort of spreading all over the country, not

1:54

just to tech hubs, but to communities that

1:56

were not known for the tech industry, but

1:58

had available power. No

2:01

one really saw this coming. Power

2:03

companies' projections for electric use didn't

2:05

account for the AI boom or

2:07

for the surge in U.S.

2:09

manufacturing. Factories

2:11

are getting built at a pace

2:14

not seen in decades, courtesy of

2:16

the Biden administration's signature infrastructure bill.

2:19

Oh, and there's more. Demand for

2:21

electric vehicles and other climate-friendly stuff is

2:23

going up. All

2:25

this means we need more electricity.

2:28

It's a concerning problem, and something is

2:30

going to have to give sometime soon.

2:33

We already knew that the power grid was in

2:36

trouble, that it wasn't being updated fast

2:38

enough, the infrastructure wasn't getting built fast

2:40

enough, but then this sort of

2:42

came out of nowhere. And so what's

2:44

happening is there's just not going to be

2:47

enough coming online fast enough to

2:49

do all the things that we want to

2:51

do. The challenge is that the power grid

2:53

is just not ready to move this much

2:55

power this fast. So

3:00

today on the show, the country is thirsty

3:02

for more electricity. Can the grid keep up?

3:05

I'm Emily Peck, filling in for Lizzie

3:08

O'Leary, and you're listening to What Next

3:10

CBD, a show about tech, power, and

3:12

how the future will be determined. Stick

3:14

around. I

3:29

want to just dig into electricity demand some

3:31

more, because electricity demand in

3:33

the U.S. was steadily increasing from 1989

3:36

to I think around 2007. And

3:42

then from 2007 on, electricity

3:44

demand in the U.S. was relatively flat.

3:48

Why was that? A lot of it has

3:50

to do with efficiency. The

3:52

level at which We've

3:54

been able to make appliances and the things we

3:57

use have become a lot more efficient. And So

3:59

even as. Population. Grows the

4:01

amounts of energy it takes to run

4:03

an air conditioner, run a heating system,

4:06

or run a dishwasher just keeps going

4:08

down and down as products become more

4:10

efficient and so that was a big

4:13

part of it. And then there was

4:15

also the issue of globalization and a

4:17

lot of manufacturing that used to happen

4:19

in this country stopped happening in this

4:22

country for a walk offs and you

4:24

can't discount so much energy the industry

4:26

requires the and run a cement plant

4:29

or to to makes. Electric batteries

4:31

are to do any of these big

4:33

heavy industries things, they just it just

4:35

takes an immense amount of electricity and

4:37

so as we off sort a lot

4:39

of that stuff to other countries, we

4:41

weren't meeting as much energy as we

4:44

had during periods when there was the

4:46

weather, were manufacturing booms and mouse and

4:48

us. So. Of as a

4:50

now electricity demand is just. it's

4:52

booming and there's a few reasons

4:55

for that their the the data

4:57

centers of course and why are

4:59

we seeing so many. Data.

5:01

Centers is is is is have anything

5:03

to do with like pandemic driven demand

5:06

from remote from remote work and streaming

5:08

and cloud. It's. A lot

5:10

of factors I'm I think people do

5:12

assume a lot of this is just

5:14

so there could be more pet videos.

5:16

The people can you sick talk and

5:18

stream Netflix and that is all related

5:20

have been. These things do take data

5:22

or it's wee bit during those things

5:24

for a while and at during quite

5:27

a lot of it. You know before

5:29

the pandemic and into the pandemic, but

5:31

this demand that we wrote about recently

5:33

this this real surge it it really

5:35

all. It has only shown itself in

5:37

the last if sixty nine months. and

5:39

a lot of that is driven

5:42

when it comes to data centers

5:44

by artificial intelligence that industry is

5:46

just developing so much more rapidly

5:48

than even the tech companies expected

5:51

a to and was kind of

5:53

arms race to as quickly developed

5:55

artificial intelligence as possible did it

5:57

has has all kinds of implications

6:00

There's also concern that if we don't

6:02

build these data centers and take

6:04

control of this industry, you

6:07

know, arrival kit, Russia can or China

6:09

can, China has lots of hydropower and

6:11

that's a concern too. So no one's

6:13

really working too hard to slow down

6:15

the development to this, but it

6:17

just takes an immense amount of power as

6:20

the artificial intelligence functions

6:23

become more sophisticated. So if

6:25

we can just like get nerdy a little

6:27

bit or like dig into that, I mean,

6:29

why do these centers use so much electricity?

6:31

What is the electricity doing and powering?

6:34

So when you want to do these kind

6:36

of artificial intelligence supercomputing

6:39

exercises and you want artificial

6:41

intelligence to sort

6:43

of perform at the

6:46

level of, you know, that goes beyond genius.

6:48

So they say artificial intelligence is already kind

6:50

of performing at like an IQ level equivalent

6:52

to like, you know, Albert Einstein. And

6:55

it takes just a ton of computing

6:57

power to make a computer that smart

6:59

and do all those things that smart,

7:01

just the data and the speed that's

7:03

needed. And

7:05

it takes an immense amount of power to bring

7:08

all that data in. And, you know, I mean,

7:10

I'm not a tech reporter or computer

7:13

scientist by any means, but the way

7:15

it's been explained to me is that as

7:17

these applications become ever more

7:19

sophisticated, they just require more

7:22

and more horsepower, computing horsepower.

7:25

Okay. And so besides AI, the

7:27

second big reason for the increase

7:30

in demand for power is manufacturing. And

7:33

this is a lot of it's coming

7:35

from the Biden administration and the inflation

7:37

reduction act and some other legislation. And

7:40

I know at Axios I've covered

7:43

sort of the boom in

7:45

building factories right now, all

7:48

these factories coming online to do all this different kind of stuff. I

7:51

guess what I'm asking is, you know, what is

7:53

the scale now of manufacturing that we're seeing in the

7:55

US? How is that impacting the power grid

7:58

and what kind of products are these? factories

8:00

producing? So the boom

8:02

in manufacturing is having a big impact

8:04

on the outlook for the grid. Since

8:07

the Inflation Reduction Act was passed,

8:10

the Biden administration says 200 factories have

8:12

been announced, 200 new factories. And

8:17

these factories, you know, we

8:19

haven't had a building boom of

8:21

factories like this in decades. And

8:24

so that boom was driven in large

8:26

part by these subsidies and the Inflation

8:29

Reduction Act, we wanted to bring all

8:31

these products that were being made in China

8:34

and other places abroad back to

8:36

the US, in part to

8:38

spur the economy and give the US

8:41

some more control over these supply chains,

8:43

but also, you know, for national security

8:45

reasons, as we're going through this energy

8:47

transition and we're more

8:49

and more relying on solar panels,

8:51

on batteries for our cars, on

8:53

heat pumps, on all

8:56

these things that involve

8:58

electrification and green

9:00

energy. The worry is

9:02

that if we don't control these supply chains and

9:05

we don't make these things here, we may not

9:07

be able to get these

9:09

products later or we may not be able to have

9:11

control over the prices. And so

9:13

you're just seeing this boom in factories

9:15

making everything from like industrial

9:18

batteries that help

9:20

store solar energy for power plants

9:22

to car batteries, to solar

9:24

panels, to you know, components for

9:26

wind farms. And these are all

9:29

things, I mean, if you're going to make

9:31

solar panels, you know, it takes multiple plants.

9:33

It's not just, you know, one plant, but

9:35

like everything else we're talking about, it takes

9:37

a lot of energy to make this stuff

9:39

and, you know, that's that's where

9:42

the tension is. And

9:44

so it's not just the factories

9:46

and the plants demanding so much

9:48

power, it's people like me

9:50

in our homes trying to

9:52

be environmentally conscious, switching to

9:54

more electric products, right,

9:57

like electric stoves, cars, heating

9:59

systems. Is that having an impact

10:01

also on the surging demand? It's

10:03

having an impact, but it had been baked in.

10:05

It was assumed we were all going to be

10:07

transitioning over to electric vehicles sometime

10:10

in the 2030s or early 2040s. The

10:14

plan was to make the power grid carbon

10:17

neutral in sometime in the 2030s also.

10:21

So these were all sort of planned and expected,

10:23

and it was looking like it was going to

10:25

be a big challenge to get the power grid

10:27

ready for all these things. But

10:30

it seemed not an insurmountable challenge.

10:33

As soon as all of this need

10:35

from the tech industry,

10:38

coupled with all of this

10:40

manufacturing that just a few

10:42

years ago we didn't expect to come back here happening at

10:45

the same time, what it means

10:47

is that the power we thought was going

10:49

to be there for all of us to

10:51

make this transition seamlessly is going

10:53

to be kind of harder to come by. And it

10:55

could mean that if

10:58

you get an electric vehicle, for example, it's

11:01

great you're driving an electric vehicle at zero emissions,

11:03

but it may take

11:05

much longer than we'd anticipated for

11:07

that electric vehicle to actually be

11:09

powered by solar power from your

11:11

utility. And the utility, because

11:14

they're short on power, may

11:16

be seeking permits from regulators to open

11:18

more gas plants and in a lot

11:20

of cases even coal plants. And

11:23

so you may be running the electric vehicle, which

11:25

is great, but the power that's juicing it is

11:28

coal or gas instead of solar. When

11:35

we come back, could the demand for electricity

11:37

slow down the transition to clean energy? I

11:50

mean, there's all this increased demand for

11:53

power because we're trying to shift to clean

11:56

energy. But at the

11:58

same time, the increase in demand means that that

12:00

energy companies can't keep up in a clean

12:02

way, and they want to keep the

12:05

old fossil fuel power plants, they're

12:07

running on coal and natural gas open. It's

12:11

hard to sort of square the circle there,

12:14

right? Is

12:16

the surge in demand throwing a

12:18

wrench in the conversion to

12:20

clean energy? The surge

12:23

in demand is definitely complicating the

12:25

energy transition. The plan to

12:27

bring in all this wind and solar power,

12:29

these plans are still moving forward, but we're

12:32

seeing because there's so much

12:34

demand and it's going up so fast that

12:37

even with all the wind and solar

12:39

and geothermal power that's planned to come

12:41

on the grid, it's

12:43

just not gonna be enough. And the

12:45

demand is just outpacing it.

12:48

And utilities are saying that we

12:50

just can't bring enough of this

12:52

renewable energy on as quickly as is going

12:54

to be needed. So we need

12:57

to delay retirements of some of these coal plants,

12:59

we need to delay retirements of gas plants, we

13:01

need to build some of these gas plants because

13:03

they're easier to interconnect with

13:05

the grid the way the infrastructure works

13:07

now. Mind you that this

13:10

is not without controversy, delaying the

13:12

retirement of a coal plant can be more lucrative

13:14

for them. And so there

13:16

is suspicion that are the utilities using

13:18

this moment to

13:20

just say, we need to

13:22

keep all this fossil fuel generation online when

13:25

there's questions about how true

13:27

that really is. And so this is playing out in a

13:29

lot of states, there are just fights

13:31

going on about the extent to which utilities should be

13:33

allowed to keep on this fossil generation

13:35

and the extent to which they

13:38

should be nudged to work

13:40

harder to bring more renewable energy

13:42

on quicker, even as the surge

13:45

in demand for electricity plays out.

13:48

But not to hammer this too much,

13:50

but I mean, if the demand to

13:52

produce renewable energy supplies like

13:55

electric vehicles or solar panels. is

14:00

basically creating a demand

14:02

for non-renewable energy sources

14:05

like coal and natural gas. I mean, this is

14:08

a problem. This is sort of straining

14:12

to find a metaphor, but it's like this

14:14

seems quite counterproductive. If we want

14:16

to speed up the transition to

14:18

renewables, but we can't do it

14:20

without the dirty energy supplies, that's

14:22

a big problem. How

14:25

is it being addressed? It's

14:27

a really complicated puzzle. What you're

14:30

seeing happen is companies that maybe

14:32

they're making clean tech, they're making

14:35

the batteries and the solar panels

14:37

and the electric vehicles and

14:39

even the tech companies that are building these

14:42

big data centers, they'll say, we're

14:44

running on zero emissions power. We

14:47

understand that we're part of the energy

14:49

transition and we're making sure that all

14:51

the power that we're using is zero

14:53

emissions. That sounds great, of

14:55

course, but there's a finite supply

14:58

of zero emissions power available. Even

15:00

if Microsoft claims it for this data

15:03

center, if a data center is taking

15:05

up the equivalent of energy

15:07

that it takes to power 80,000 homes and then

15:09

those 80,000 homes can't get

15:12

access to renewable

15:14

energy because Microsoft claimed it and there's just

15:17

not that much on their local grid or

15:19

not enough for everyone, they wind

15:21

up using the gas plant. When

15:23

you step back and look at the big picture, the

15:25

fact is there's a limited supply, there's a

15:28

big supply, but it's limited of renewable energy

15:30

out there. It

15:33

is a legitimate problem. Why

15:35

can't the power grid keep up with this growth?

15:37

I think we did an episode maybe

15:40

last year, months back, just about

15:42

how infrastructure is aging and it's

15:44

hard to get these plans to do

15:46

more. Is

15:49

that why the power grid can't keep

15:51

up with this? Why we don't have

15:53

enough energy to meet the demand? Yeah.

15:57

What's happening is we're just not building

15:59

transmission lines. him than eight and transfer

16:01

seasons at the pace we were before.

16:03

Some of it is related to supply

16:05

chains and challenges getting the steady enough

16:07

supplies, but a lot of it is

16:10

really just about the permitting so that

16:12

the Federal regulators don't have much authority

16:14

to just say we're putting power line

16:16

here and it's got to go through

16:18

these three states and we're going to

16:20

use eminent domain. and that's going to

16:23

be that. it's It goes down to

16:25

the states and the power grid is.

16:27

It's really interconnected, regional grunts and so.

16:30

One state may have lots of resources

16:32

for like a lot of wins or

16:34

a lot of son words. Good place

16:36

to build a solar farmer, wind farm

16:38

and but they need to get that

16:40

energy to another state Where the population

16:42

centers are the data centers. Or and

16:44

then the states wound up getting into

16:47

these big sites about. Okay, who's going

16:49

to pay for this transmission? How's it

16:51

going to work out as the company

16:53

going to pay? Why are these lines

16:55

doing screw? You know this ranchers property.

16:57

He doesn't want these things there and

16:59

so. Is all of these fights.

17:02

Evans. As another big, as soon

17:04

as the environmental review system right

17:06

now, landowners can file lawsuits that

17:08

take decades to resolve, which then

17:10

drags out the process of building

17:12

new infrastructure. Even more. And

17:14

so what you're hearing right now on

17:16

Capitol Hill is this big debate about

17:19

permitting For and that's exactly what I'm

17:21

talking about. It takes so can you

17:23

change the environmental review process? So the

17:25

lawsuits camp drag on for fourteen years

17:27

and it all sounds great and every

17:30

lawmaker to talk to will say we're

17:32

all for permitting reform. When it gets

17:34

down to it, you know this. This

17:36

means changing the rules and giving. You.

17:39

Know landowners and voters, less recourse and

17:41

less say in where are these Our

17:43

lands go And that's politically fraught. And

17:46

so yes, the infrastructures aging and the

17:48

reason it's aging is because there's a

17:50

somebody sites over and any proposal the

17:53

to build these. the power lines are

17:55

just the really hard to get built.

17:58

This is like another. Real

18:00

Estate. Horrible story in the United

18:02

States because everything is so local and all

18:04

these little these little fights on happen at

18:06

the state level. in the local level. Again

18:09

an ideal world. You'd have the federal government

18:11

coming in and sort of. Planning.

18:13

This stuff out better, right? Especially considering

18:15

all the money at stake or at

18:17

the federal level. Yes, I

18:20

mean that's the way they do it in

18:22

some other countries are you know? Obviously you

18:24

can go too far in the other direction.

18:26

I mean one of the concerns is that

18:28

in China they don't worry about what in

18:31

a local residents have to say about some.

18:33

Our plan is going to wear a transmission

18:35

lines during and they can just build whatever

18:37

they want where they wants I'm but that

18:39

brings all kinds of other issues but that

18:42

is concerned when it comes to dislike arms

18:44

race with a I like. China has so

18:46

much energy as they can just build our

18:48

plants whenever they feel. Like it where

18:50

they feel like it's an the concern

18:52

is will they have all the power

18:54

to do whatever they want and leap

18:57

frog The Us tech companies in artificial

18:59

intelligence develop. I local

19:01

authorities able to prioritize certain projects. I mean,

19:03

I know one thing we didn't talk about

19:05

that sticking up some. Powered. Men

19:08

Right Now is Crypto mining and.

19:11

You. Think that if you know local

19:13

authorities could prioritize they would maybe start

19:15

with the data centers that are powering

19:17

an eye on and streaming. or it

19:19

didn't the factories and sort of move

19:22

crypt of down the line. Are they

19:24

able to do that? That's

19:26

a really interesting question him and

19:28

one that's at every time I

19:31

ask. People were just really grappling

19:33

with and there was lot of

19:35

hand wringing over it. I mean

19:37

the answer right now is the

19:39

cats and in a lot of

19:41

places I'm Not only can the

19:43

authorities not decide okay, we want

19:45

to. Prioritize this project

19:47

because it's better for the economy

19:50

and better for the communities. Are

19:52

over this project when it comes

19:54

to giving power hookups to the

19:56

grid. They're even laws in some

19:58

places specifically prohibiting. Utilities from

20:01

prioritizing anything over anything in

20:03

there to protect in industry

20:05

like crypto mining. Lucas.

20:07

And I have is. I mean. Who's

20:09

gonna pay for all all this for

20:12

the updates in the power grid needed

20:14

to keep up with demands on you

20:16

know if we do succeed and ramping

20:18

up power production? Is that something. That.

20:21

You'll have to pay for in your electric bill

20:23

or exists if we do ramp up. Does that

20:25

mean male actor tell me the those town to

20:27

there's more power. Be. A That

20:30

isn't a really interesting question because

20:32

I was talking to or of

20:34

utility executive in Texas recently and

20:36

was asking about all of this

20:38

demanded who's going to pay for

20:40

it It is going to pay

20:42

for the infrastructure because the companies

20:44

that. Are using the factories

20:46

and the data centers that are

20:48

are causing this surge in demand.

20:50

You're saying we're going to pay

20:52

for all the infrastructure we use.

20:54

An anytime utility needs to bring

20:56

a whole bunch to power down.

20:58

Ah, because of us will mixer

21:00

where where footing the bill and

21:02

he said you know that's Canada

21:04

Us that's the public line but

21:06

you can't satisfy all of this

21:08

demand that of that's coming right

21:11

now without everyone's where it's going

21:13

up And he said just the

21:15

the price. Per unit of

21:17

power everyone expected to go up. And

21:19

it's not just the burdens, not just

21:21

of his shoulder by these companies that

21:23

are using massive amounts of, it's because

21:25

the enough when all this need for

21:27

power happens, all the superstructure needs to

21:29

be dealt. It's. Not just

21:31

a few companies to pay for it, everyone ones

21:33

that pay for. Some. Looking

21:35

at your the charts in your

21:38

story which have these projections of

21:40

demands on and. It's

21:42

like leave probably don't have enough to

21:44

supply of energy. And like on a

21:47

particle level. What does it mean? Like,

21:49

does this mean that you know a

21:51

i won't advances as quickly as it

21:53

needs to? Does it mean that there's

21:56

gonna be like rolling blackouts? Like how?

21:58

how worried should people be that the

22:00

Us doesn't have enough. You

22:02

know, An. Electric Power to meet the

22:05

demand of the demands we see coming online

22:07

in the future. What we're seeing

22:09

right now is it means that companies

22:11

that want to build some things are,

22:13

whether be a factory or a data

22:16

center. They're having to wait longer than

22:18

expected to be able to get the

22:20

power they need unless there's some changes.

22:22

Quickly added some infrastructure, get still quickly.

22:25

it's the wait times for getting up

22:27

our are going into it expands and

22:29

it's going to take longer and longer.

22:32

Some. Of them are starting to look at

22:34

what my can we build a small nuclear

22:36

plants on our property? Can we build our

22:39

and microgrid with us A Solar farms. There's

22:41

going to be some. Challenging.

22:44

Seasons that was to be me. Will

22:46

it mean that companies that need a

22:48

lot of towers gonna be told that

22:50

they can't get it isn't on the

22:52

time when they need And does it

22:54

say some? you know away to other

22:56

countries? Does it mean that the transition

22:59

towards cleaner energy for the rest of

23:01

us who want to use electric vehicles

23:03

and he pumps and our homes that

23:05

those things are going to be run

23:07

on coal and gas power long past

23:09

the point we expected them to. I'm

23:11

or does it mean we're rolling blackouts?

23:13

Yeah. I mean, we're already at a point

23:15

in this country where we're seeing when it

23:18

gets really hot in the summer with extreme

23:20

weather or really cold in the winter. You

23:23

know that these kind of rolling outages?

23:25

That's we're just not accustomed to. me.

23:28

Maybe in California, It was something people

23:30

are familiar with, but never seen him

23:32

in Texas. We're seeing them. and Midwest.

23:35

You know what? The the grid is

23:37

already so precarious, so this does layer

23:39

on a bunch of other potential problems

23:42

unless. This. Is a dress. Very.

23:44

Quickly. Yeah. I mean any time

23:47

the solution to a problem is build small

23:49

nuclear plant I'm thinking the problem is very.

23:51

Very big. Yeah

23:53

I think that's a that's of a suit points.

23:56

My last question for you. That.

23:58

I've been thinking about. Them I mean

24:01

for for hundreds of years now.

24:03

We. Leave use more and

24:05

more energy and power and that's that's

24:07

fields. Immense economic growth in

24:10

the United States, and you know,

24:12

in most developed countries, Are.

24:15

We sort of them. Are reaching the limits of I

24:17

know, Well. We're still

24:19

using more more cause I think

24:22

that's the thing we're We're figuring

24:24

out how to use it smarter

24:26

and smarter but of were just

24:28

using so much that we need

24:30

to start prioritizing arm which. You

24:33

know everyone is loath to do because we've

24:35

never had to do that before. We never

24:37

had to say it's a tape. It really

24:40

does make more sense to get this battery

24:42

plants in our community and this is going

24:44

to employ a lot of people. Ends in

24:46

a daily the Energy: A crypto mining facility.

24:48

Okay. Maybe they'll bring him some tax

24:50

revenue, but that doesn't really make as

24:52

much sense for communities of having to

24:54

make these decisions is just something are

24:57

not accustomed to. So whether we go

24:59

into route where we make those, start

25:01

making those decisions I'm we'll see but

25:03

a lot of people talking to your

25:05

server running for granted and are experts

25:07

in this are having a hard time

25:09

seeing how we get there but also

25:11

having a hard time seeing how we

25:13

keep the electricity system afloat without going

25:15

there. Have

25:18

been! Thank you so much. Thank you so much

25:21

for having me on. And

25:23

then helper as a business or quarter

25:25

at the Washington Post covering the energy

25:28

transition. And that's it for Saturday. Lutnick

25:30

Cbd is produced by Evan Campbell, Nsls

25:32

and Patrick for a Cell is edited

25:35

by Page Osbourne. Elisa month at me

25:37

as Vice President of Audio Sustain Tbd

25:39

as part of the larger Lennox Family.

25:42

If you're a fan of the So,

25:44

either Patreon become a slate plus memory,

25:46

just head on over to Slate. That

25:49

hands as what next has to Santa.

25:51

Will be back next week with. Another

25:53

episode I'm Emily Tech filling in for

25:55

Lydia Leary and you can catch me

25:58

around Slate Money every Saturday.