0:05

Brad. For scala used to be a bit of

0:08

a nobody. A. Web designer without much

0:10

of a public profile. According

0:13

to Forbes, he was literally stalking

0:16

the web design section of a

0:18

Borders bookstore in San Antonio, Texas

0:20

trolling for customers. Been.

0:22

In twenty twelve or scowled got

0:24

a customer of very big. One

0:27

We need somebody. That.

0:30

Literally will take this

0:32

country and make it

0:34

great again. Bratwurst girl

0:36

is the digital. Campaign

0:38

operatives who helped engineer

0:40

Donald Trump's Twenty Six

0:43

Team Presidential victory. Grants

0:45

Burke is a global investigative journalist

0:47

for the Associated Press. He teamed

0:50

up with Cambridge Analytical if listeners

0:52

remember and how propel Trump to

0:54

the White House eight years ago.

0:57

Now her scale is back

0:59

and Garage says this election

1:01

is bringing a I with

1:04

him. Or I've actually build software

1:06

and built artificial intelligence and machine learning

1:08

now to build our own platform and.

1:10

Or what he says his

1:13

company can do is to

1:15

how generate customized emails are

1:17

through oceans of data to

1:20

figure out how voters are

1:22

feeling and fine persuadable voters

1:25

and also amplify the social

1:27

media posts of influencers who

1:29

have perspectives that you know

1:32

are in line with his

1:34

candidates. Which typically are among the most

1:36

conservative around the world we've been doing

1:38

and over the next few years and

1:40

freshly forty four, you're going to see

1:42

some of those revolution research technology come

1:44

out of our side. and actually we

1:46

were to win his yourself. as

1:55

ai technology becomes more sophisticated it's

1:57

become a tool candidates are rush

1:59

to around the globe. And

2:02

Pascal, with his multiple tech

2:04

companies, has become a key

2:06

player in the political AI

2:08

arms race. This has

2:10

some election officials worried, not

2:13

about another Trump presidency, but

2:15

about the use of AI itself. You

2:18

know, as these generative AI services

2:20

get more and more sophisticated, officials

2:23

are worrying that they could be used

2:25

to steer voters to avoid the polls,

2:27

for example, or erode the

2:29

public trust in what they can

2:31

see and hear. But honestly, there's

2:33

not much in the way of

2:35

federal regulations around the use of

2:38

AI tools to support campaigns. Today

2:45

on the show, why AI is the

2:47

latest in election tech and

2:49

how Brad Pascal became its

2:52

unofficial spokesman. I'm Shayna

2:54

Roth, in for Lizzie O'Leary, and you're listening

2:56

to What Next TBD, a show

2:58

about technology, power, and how the future

3:00

will be determined. Stick around.

3:15

This episode is brought to you by

3:17

Progressive Insurance. Hey listeners, whether

3:20

you love true crime or comedies,

3:22

celebrity interviews, news, or even motivational

3:24

speakers, you call the shots

3:26

on what's in your podcast queue, right? And

3:29

guess what? Now you can call

3:31

the shots on your auto insurance too.

3:33

Enter the name your price tool from

3:35

Progressive. The name your price tool

3:38

takes you in charge of your auto insurance by

3:40

working just the way it sounds. You

3:42

tell Progressive how much you want to

3:45

pay for car insurance, then they'll show

3:47

you a variety of coverages that fit

3:49

within your budget, giving you options. Now

3:51

that's something you'll want to press play on.

3:54

It's easy to start a quote, and you'll be able

3:56

to choose the best option for you fast.

4:00

just one of the many ways you can

4:02

save with progressive insurance. Quote

4:04

today at progressive.com to try the name

4:06

your price tool for yourself and join

4:08

the over 28 million drivers who

4:10

trust progressive. Progressive Casualty

4:12

Insurance Company and Affiliates price and

4:15

coverage match limited by state law.

4:21

Apple Card is the perfect cash back

4:23

rewards credit card. You earn up to

4:26

3% daily cash and every purchase

4:28

every day. That's 3% on your

4:30

favorite products at Apple, 2%

4:33

on all other Apple Card with Apple Pay

4:35

purchases and 1% on anything

4:37

you buy with your titanium Apple

4:39

Card or virtual card number. Visit

4:42

apple.co/card calculator to see how

4:44

much you can earn. Apple

4:47

Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank

4:49

USA Salt Lake City branch subject

4:52

to credit approval terms of high.

4:58

Let's go back to 2012. Facebook

5:00

goes public. Barack Obama arguably

5:02

the first to really use

5:05

social media to propel his

5:07

campaign is president and

5:09

Brad Parscale has built a web page

5:11

for the Trump family. The

5:13

Trump family liked his work. According

5:16

to Forbes he worked on sites

5:18

for Trump international Realty the Eric

5:20

Trump Foundation even Melania Trump's skincare

5:23

line. Then Trump

5:25

decided to run for president. So

5:28

ladies and gentlemen I

5:34

am officially running for

5:38

president of the United States

5:41

and we are going to make our

5:44

country great again. And

5:47

when it came time to recruit for

5:49

the Trump campaign Parscale was ready to

5:51

serve. Parscale was

5:54

actually one of the first hires

5:56

and he was the person who

5:58

really spearheaded this ambitious. an

6:00

orthodox digital initiative that was

6:02

called Project Alamo, that

6:05

basically used this extensive database

6:07

of social media

6:09

accounts to target voters with

6:12

Facebook ads. Then

6:14

in 2020, in the middle of Donald

6:16

Trump's re-election campaign, Pascal had

6:19

a break with Trump. What

6:22

happened? Well, so if folks

6:24

remember, back in June of 2020, COVID

6:27

was raging. The campaign

6:29

had promised that there would be

6:31

a huge turnout for a Trump

6:34

rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It didn't

6:36

happen. Apparently a bunch of folks

6:39

signed up using fake accounts

6:42

and then never showed up to

6:44

the rally. Trump was really enraged

6:46

by this. And Pascal

6:49

ultimately was replaced as his

6:51

campaign manager. Pascal's

6:53

personal life kind of unraveled from

6:55

there, and for a while

6:57

he decided to quit politics. So

7:00

then, you can kind of fast-forward

7:02

again a little bit. There's

7:04

the January 6th attacks. Pascal,

7:07

whom we hadn't really heard a whole lot

7:09

from, he expressed some regret about his role

7:11

in getting Trump elected in 2016. He

7:15

texted a friend that he felt guilty

7:17

that he'd helped Trump win. But

7:19

now, Pascal is helping

7:22

Trump get elected with his

7:24

company, Campaign Nucleus, and he's been

7:26

really singing Trump's praises on GOP

7:29

podcasts. So what

7:31

changed? Well, I think,

7:33

you know, from our reporting, Campaign

7:37

Nucleus has been building its AI-powered

7:40

platform for a number of

7:42

years. And so essentially,

7:45

Pascal found

7:47

a willing set of

7:50

clients in the Republican

7:52

landscape here in the United States, as

7:54

well as among conservative candidates

7:56

around the world, who really wanted

7:58

a better mousetrap. right, who wanted

8:01

to be free from what they

8:03

perceived as Silicon Valley tech companies

8:05

throttling their access to

8:07

their platforms, you know, taking their accounts

8:10

off of Twitter, etc. And

8:12

so Parscale offered a kind of

8:15

soup to nuts, one stop

8:17

shop campaign digital platform, particularly

8:20

marketed to conservative candidates. Is

8:24

what campaign nucleus is promising? Is it really

8:26

revolutionary? Or is he just kind of bandwagoning

8:28

off the hype of AI? Well,

8:31

you know, I should be clear, Shana, there are

8:33

Democrats who are experimenting with AI,

8:35

you know, Biden's campaign is looking

8:37

at this too. So to some

8:40

degree, having a campaign vendor say

8:42

that they're using AI to do

8:44

a number of different things, you

8:47

know, and it's really competitive election

8:49

cycle is not surprising, right? So

8:51

there's different ways that AI could

8:54

have uses, I think for campaigns of

8:56

all stripes, what Parscale

8:58

is promising, however, goes beyond

9:01

that. So he, for example, in

9:04

a recent presentation that we

9:06

were able to obtain, said

9:08

that his company is

9:10

actually better at fundraising than

9:13

Salesforce is, for example. And

9:16

that he has a whole

9:18

other app that he's going

9:20

to be spinning out that will essentially be

9:23

a door dash model for

9:26

people who are going to collect ballots.

9:28

So I think it's, you know,

9:30

it, it all sort of remains to be seen, but

9:32

there's some pretty interesting claims out there. You

9:36

touched on something that I would like to dig into a

9:38

little bit more, which is the use of influencers.

9:40

I know when I think of

9:42

influencers, I think of people on

9:44

TikTok and Instagram trying to sell

9:47

me different products while they tap on

9:49

them with their fingernails. Is,

9:52

is that kind of the vibe that we're

9:54

getting from their use of influencers or what

9:56

are we talking about here? Well,

9:59

what my colleague And what Alan and

10:01

I found is that influencers

10:03

are actually becoming kind of

10:05

key political gatekeepers that campaigns

10:08

are trying to court in

10:10

2024. So

10:12

Brad Parscale, for example, says

10:14

that his company, Campaign Nucleus, can

10:17

help clients quote, promote your message

10:19

with the largest anti-woke

10:21

influencer network. And

10:24

he said that he can use

10:26

AI to craft media

10:28

distributions that said there were something

10:30

like 2 billion plus aggregate followers. But

10:33

we're still in the dark about just

10:35

who is in this influencer network and

10:37

how it works. So we're going to

10:39

be digging into more of that on

10:41

all sides in the months to

10:43

come. I'm curious, how

10:46

big of a role is Campaign Nucleus

10:48

and Parscale's other companies playing in the

10:50

election so far, including outside of Trump,

10:53

just like globally with the 2024 election?

10:56

How big is their influence? Well, you

10:58

know, one thing that we found particularly interesting

11:00

was that he had said that he was

11:03

especially active in the Balkans, which

11:05

is fascinating given that area's

11:07

long simmering ethnic tensions, proximity

11:10

to the Ukraine-Russia conflict.

11:13

He also said he was helping Israel, which

11:15

we found quite noteworthy given the war in

11:17

Gaza. And then Campaign

11:19

Nucleus is also looking to hire

11:21

an intelligence analyst we saw in

11:24

a job posting in Latin America.

11:26

So we're really curious to hear

11:28

more about this. Should

11:30

anyone have any more information? Please get in

11:33

touch. After

11:38

the break, it isn't just the

11:40

technology of political campaigning that is

11:42

changing. There's an entire

11:44

new ecosystem of people online

11:46

growing their political power. Apple

11:55

Card is the perfect cash back rewards

11:57

credit card. You earn up to 3% daily. cash

12:00

at every purchase every day. That's

12:02

3% on your favorite products at

12:04

Apple, 2% on all

12:06

other Apple Card with Apple Pay purchases,

12:09

and 1% on anything

12:11

you buy with your Titanium Apple

12:13

Card or Virtual Card number. Visit

12:15

apple.co.ca to see how much you can

12:17

earn. Apple Card issued by

12:22

Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt

12:24

Lake City branch. Subject to

12:26

credit approval, terms apply. Coming

12:30

soon from Slate Podcasts. So,

12:33

first it was Dade County. Voters

12:35

in the Miami area repealed civil rights for

12:38

gay people by a 2 to 1 margin.

12:40

In the late 1970s, cities

12:42

around the country began rolling

12:44

back anti-discrimination laws that protected

12:47

gay people. And then it

12:49

was Wichita, St. Paul, Eugene.

12:51

Successful campaigns against the gay community would

12:54

shock us all. A state

12:56

senator from California watched the laws

12:58

fall and saw an opportunity. Homosexuality

13:01

is a most repulsive

13:04

lifestyle. His name was

13:06

John Briggs, and he wanted to

13:08

deliver the anti-gay movement its biggest

13:10

prize yet. California realized

13:12

that they were coming for

13:14

us. I'm

13:17

Christina Cotarucci. This season

13:19

on Slow Burn, we'll explore how

13:21

a nationwide backlash against gays and

13:23

lesbians led to a massive showdown

13:25

in California. Now it's something called

13:28

Proposition 6, the Briggs Initiative.

13:30

It would call for firing any

13:32

teachers in California who practice homosexuality.

13:35

Your life as you knew it would

13:37

be destroyed. We've got to fight back.

13:39

We can't let this happen in California.

13:44

The Briggs Initiative would be the first

13:46

statewide vote on gay rights. With

13:51

so much at stake, young people became

13:53

activists. We were all coming

13:55

out all day long, every day. And

13:58

activists became leaders. Melbourne

14:08

season nine games against Spriggs

14:10

how may Twenty second. Wherever

14:13

you listen. If we lose here,

14:15

it'll be fifty years before we

14:17

ever get back of her. Like.

14:21

To drag Queen say take out the

14:23

earrings, sharpen the nails. There ain't no

14:25

go back. If

14:28

you. Want to understand what is happening in

14:30

the United States? right now? You really need

14:32

to understand what's happened at the clients, the

14:35

law, and the Supreme Court. A battle between

14:37

democracy and whatever this cage match is that

14:39

we're witnessing. It's gonna be won and lost

14:41

at the ballot box, but is also going

14:44

to be won and lost. In the courtroom.

14:46

And Dahlia Lithwick as host. Sleep

14:49

Legal Process Anarchists and we are

14:51

doubling our outlet. springing you weekly

14:53

episodes from here on in because

14:55

how else can we keep an

14:58

eye on them? Many child of

15:00

Donald Trump, the conservative legal movements

15:02

assault on advice, the Supreme Court

15:04

latest slew of environmental getting gun

15:06

safety is this Ratings cases on

15:09

the docket. Fall

15:11

Amethyst wherever you get your podcasts

15:13

new episodes dropping every. Saturday.

15:15

Morning. So.

15:19

If per scale had his way. What

15:22

would the future of elections look

15:24

like for Republicans is clearly on

15:26

their side. And

15:29

I mean this is no surprise, her skull

15:31

is still. In the Matrix work the

15:33

our campaign told us is that

15:35

he is not making is no

15:37

day to day decisions. The arm

15:39

she's not somebody. Who's. Sort of calling

15:42

the shots as you will. Ah,

15:44

I'm as to what exactly the

15:46

campaign pursues from week to week,

15:49

but you know she is close

15:51

to talk republicans as well as

15:53

senior officials at the campaign and

15:55

that the earn seats according to

15:58

folks who we spoke with. You

16:03

have! She is a

16:05

I powered platform campaign

16:07

nucleus really but com

16:09

you know a mainstay

16:11

of. Republican campaigns. So

16:13

for example, in January he

16:15

told a crowd at are

16:17

Really Grassroots Christian event at

16:19

a church in California that

16:21

their movement needed to has

16:23

quote our own a I've

16:25

from creative large language models

16:27

and creative imagery. we need

16:29

to reach our own audiences

16:32

with our own distribution. Our

16:34

own email systems are own

16:36

taxing systems. Are own ability

16:38

to place Tv ads. And lastly, we.

16:40

Need to have our own influencers.

16:42

So for us you know that

16:44

was really a glimpse of the

16:46

Ai future that he envisions. What?

16:50

Are the differences and how the

16:52

two parties. Are using a I?

16:54

So how is how Republicans are using a

16:57

I'd? Different from how democrats are doing

16:59

It mean are they actually doing different

17:01

things or is it more a matter

17:03

of the amount of a being used.

17:06

I think that. You. Know a lot

17:08

of that remains to. Be seen on because

17:10

there is so little in the

17:12

way of regulation. For the use

17:14

of this kind of technology in

17:17

our elections. Much as this

17:19

may be. Oh stuff we

17:21

find out in a long

17:23

after served presidential races called

17:25

ah but I think there

17:27

are as the goal debates

17:29

going on on both sides.

17:31

We're particularly focused are reporting

17:33

on the Republican side on

17:35

Bread Proud per scowl because

17:38

he's been such an important

17:40

campaign operatives for. Our trump

17:42

over the last eight years, you

17:44

know she has really embraced a

17:47

I as a way to arm.

17:49

you know power campaigns

17:51

through fund raising the

17:53

through motivating voters through

17:55

getting supporters out to

17:57

the polls you know

18:00

He sees this, I think, as a real full

18:03

suite of opportunities where

18:05

AI can boost

18:07

a campaign. Some Democrats,

18:09

I think, are excited about

18:12

similar things, but

18:14

there is this tension particularly in

18:16

the Biden campaign

18:19

around deploying generative

18:21

AI in the field.

18:23

I think that there's been a lot that

18:26

the Biden administration has done to sort of

18:28

shape AI regulation

18:30

through executive action.

18:33

They are just really wanting to

18:36

see how they can use it to build

18:38

audiences, generate content for

18:43

volunteers to share in the field. They

18:45

say that they want to use it

18:47

in ways that maximize AI's capabilities but

18:49

don't cross ethical lines. It

18:53

feels like we're kind

18:55

of opening a Pandora's box. I mean, that's

18:57

kind of how all use of AI feels

18:59

to me, but especially in elections. I

19:02

mean, if both parties start using AI

19:05

consistently with little regulation like there is

19:07

now, how do we have

19:09

a functional election anymore? Is

19:12

it possible to have both? I think

19:14

this is a real question, you know, especially

19:17

as people turn to chatbots

19:19

to get basic information about where

19:21

their polling place is. And as we've

19:23

seen in our previous reporting, don't necessarily

19:25

get factual answers back. And

19:29

as folks tuning into their

19:31

favorite Netflix show are bombarded

19:34

with ads that are

19:36

telling them things that aren't true

19:38

about candidates, we are in a new era.

19:42

Part of this

19:45

is computational propaganda that's been

19:47

around in various forms in

19:49

previous election cycles now just

19:51

being supercharged by

19:54

large language models that

19:56

can help campaigns

19:58

better target. exactly which

20:00

misleading ads should be shown to whom.

20:04

But I think it's really a situation where

20:06

it's buyer beware, all of us as

20:09

voters and citizens really need to be

20:13

thinking long and hard about the messaging that

20:15

we're getting and what might be behind it,

20:17

regardless of where it's coming from. What

20:20

do you think happens to Pascal after the

20:23

election? Well,

20:25

I think right now, he

20:27

is in a good

20:29

spot with the Trump campaign. Thus

20:32

far, companies that

20:34

he's affiliated with have been

20:37

paid more than $2.2 million by

20:43

the Trump campaign, the Republican

20:45

National Committee and related political

20:47

action and fundraising committees. So

20:49

I would imagine that he

20:52

is hoping to make

20:54

himself and his platform more

20:57

and more indispensable. Unfortunately,

20:59

Pascal did not talk with us. And

21:02

what the Trump campaign was willing

21:05

to say was that they

21:07

use a set of, quote,

21:09

"'proprietary algorithmic tools' like many

21:12

campaigns across the country to

21:14

help deliver emails more efficiently

21:16

and prevent sign-up lists from

21:18

being populated by false information.

21:21

But what's interesting here is that Trump

21:23

himself has

21:25

gone on TV and called

21:28

artificial intelligence, quote, so scary

21:30

and dangerous." So I think

21:33

we're all gonna be watching to

21:35

see what kind of

21:37

role Pascal and other vendors

21:40

who use AI tools play

21:43

in that campaign, as well as

21:45

in Biden's and others across the world.

21:48

Thank you. This

21:54

is Ron Spark, Global Investigative Journalist for

21:56

the Associated Press. Thanks for coming on

21:58

the show. From I've seen on

22:01

my pleasure. Derived.

22:05

Smart as a global investigative journalist

22:07

for The Associated. And

22:09

that's if I showed what next

22:12

Tbd is produced. By Evan Campbell's

22:14

Anna Phillips and Patrick Said Or

22:16

Show is edited by Page Osborne.

22:19

A Leash Montgomery, his Vice President of. Audio

22:21

for slate Tbd. Is part

22:23

of the larger what next family. If

22:25

you're a fan of the Shell, I

22:28

have a request for you become a

22:30

Fleet Plus member. Just head on over

22:32

to sleep.com. Next post. Back

22:36

Sunday was another episode I'm center

22:38

on. Coming.

22:52

Soon from Slate podcast. So

22:55

first it was Dade County. Voters

22:57

of the Miami area. Civil rights

22:59

for gay people have to one

23:01

margin. In the late Nineteen

23:04

seventy, cities around the country began

23:06

rolling back anti discrimination laws that

23:08

protect against. People to know it

23:10

was Wichita St. Paul, Eugene.

23:12

Successful campaigns against a gay

23:14

community would shock the solve.

23:17

A state senator from California

23:19

watched the last fall and

23:21

saw an opportunity. Homosexuality

23:23

is that most repulsive

23:26

lifestyle His. Name was John

23:28

Bread and he wanted to deliver.

23:30

The anti gay movement is biggest

23:33

prize yes California. Realize that they

23:35

were common. For us. On.

23:38

Christina Ricci. This season on

23:41

Slow Burn will explore how

23:43

a nationwide backlash against gays

23:45

and lesbians lead to a

23:47

massive showdown. in california now have

23:49

something called proposition six the rings

23:51

and as all firing any teachers

23:54

in california success homosexuality your life

23:56

as he knew it would be

23:58

destroyed with We got to fight

24:01

that we can't let this happen

24:03

in California. The

24:07

Briggs Initiative would be the first statewide vote

24:09

on gay rights. With

24:13

so much at stake, young people

24:15

became activists. We were all

24:17

coming out all day long every day. And

24:20

activists became leaders. My

24:23

name is Marty Delt and I'm

24:25

here to introduce you. The

24:30

Briggs Initiative will be open on September 9,

24:34

season 9. Gays against Briggs. Out

24:37

May 22 wherever you listen. If

24:40

we lose here, it'll be 50 years before we ever get back

24:42

up again. Like

24:46

the drag queens say, take out the earrings, sharpen the

24:48

nails.