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splunk.com/resilience. So

0:44

Patrick, tell us who are you and what do you

0:46

do? My name is

0:48

Patrick George. I'm the editor in chief

0:50

of insideevs.com. And I'm a contributor

0:52

to The Atlantic and The Verge and a

0:54

few other publications. Patrick

1:00

is a car guy. He's covered the

1:02

auto industry for years. And these

1:04

days he's focused on electric vehicles. So

1:07

fair to say he's now an EV guy.

1:10

Thanks to his job, Patrick does a lot

1:12

of test driving. Last

1:14

week, he tested out a fancy Mercedes

1:17

EV. It was an SUV with

1:19

a six figure price tag. He

1:21

lent it out to his wife. She didn't love

1:23

it. She borrowed it for a bit to go

1:25

run some errands. And I asked her, I was like, just bring

1:27

it back with a full charge because we have to drive back

1:29

to New York City that night. And

1:31

I just had the worst time getting the

1:34

car to connect to any of the public

1:36

chargers that are near us in upstate New

1:38

York. And just kind of calls me

1:40

screaming, jumping up and down. She's like, the software won't

1:42

work. It won't connect to the car. And she's

1:45

like, did you know it was like this? And I

1:47

said, yes. But it's, you knew it was this bad?

1:49

I'm like, yes, I do. And she's like,

1:51

but it has to get better than this for

1:53

everybody or it's not going to work and no one's

1:56

going to go for it. I'm like, yes, exactly. So I

1:59

was like, welcome to my World. the a new

2:01

new new, perfectly sane and illustrate the problem that

2:03

that beguile this industry and many people who want

2:05

to do the right thing and drive electric but

2:08

have a lot of bro blocks in their way.

2:14

And that's the thing. More people want to

2:16

move away from gas powered cars. And

2:19

it's you're a lot of Americans actually

2:21

dead, buying more easier than ever before.

2:23

but nationwide. Are charging? infrastructure just

2:25

isn't where it needs to be. A

2:27

many Americans aren't so sure about making

2:29

the full set to see. So.

2:32

A lot of folks are turning a hybrid

2:35

vehicles that is both gas and electricity. And

2:38

not causing a problem for the automakers

2:40

for trying to go all in on

2:42

electric and not fuss around. that is

2:44

middle ground and more crucially for the

2:46

climate. Because hybrids lot

2:48

better than your typical internal combustion

2:50

engine silver allowing gas and if

2:52

we wanna say is our car

2:54

emissions in the coming. Years. Will.

2:57

Have to move on from them eventually. That's

2:59

the problem, which is that some car

3:01

companies. Want to make hybrids and

3:03

see this as as great bridge from

3:05

gas cars to fully electric cars. You

3:07

know you could build up for very

3:10

supply. You cut down on gas use,

3:12

cut down on the mission. In the

3:14

meantime, get people used to it and

3:16

another car Companies like General Motors and

3:18

and Volkswagen probably most notably are looking

3:20

at a nursing. Why are we have

3:22

to spend billions and billions of dollars

3:24

on building out events are building up

3:26

badly. Plants billie of software for these

3:28

electric vehicles. All of us really advanced

3:30

technologies will want to waste their money.

3:32

On, You know what's gonna be ultimately a dead

3:35

end rant on hybrid parks And so you know

3:37

some of these Parker buddies. They've got a great

3:39

you know why of hybrids to choose from of

3:41

that's what you want right now. The other ones

3:43

are just like sorry no you know here are

3:46

gas cars and here are he these and that's

3:48

the way we're going and you're just going etti

3:50

to kind of deal with it. Said.

3:55

Sam Zell. Patrick

3:57

explains why Americans more than twenty.

4:00

since Toyota introduced the Prius, have fallen

4:02

back in love with hybrid cars.

4:05

Will they ease drivers into an electric future

4:07

or will they run us

4:09

off the road? I'm Emily Peck filling

4:11

in for Lizzie O'Leary and you're listening

4:13

to What Next TBD, a show about

4:15

tech, power, and how the future will

4:17

be determined. Stick around. This

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5:54

a little bit let's just talk about like who's

5:57

buying what cars right now. What proportion of the

5:59

market is even? EVs right now. We

6:01

just got to the point where EVs are

6:04

about 10% of

6:06

the US car market, which

6:08

is the biggest suburban. So yes,

6:10

it's great for the US. I

6:12

think it's 12% in Canada. It's

6:14

significantly lower than Europe, or I believe there

6:16

are about 20% across the board there.

6:21

You know, some European countries, I think Norway, they're up

6:23

to like 90% now, like that ship

6:25

has kind of sailed in Norway. You

6:27

know, the Scandinavian countries, they're just lapping

6:29

us. They're always lapping us. At

6:31

everything. Healthcare, just got it all. The

6:34

whole nine yards. Yeah. You

6:36

know, China is rapidly moving to, you

6:38

know, these EVs. And they actually, they

6:41

do a really great job of hybrid

6:44

cars as well. And you said the proportion

6:46

in the US of EVs is 10%. What's

6:49

hybrids? What's the proportion of hybrids? As

6:52

part of this growth that we've seen this year, hybrids now

6:54

make up nearly 10% of new car

6:57

sales. And that's a number that's more than doubled

6:59

since 2020. So

7:01

if you're looking at EVs and hybrids

7:03

together, that's 20% of the new car market

7:05

in America, which is really fantastic to see.

7:07

Yeah, that's astonishing. The EVs

7:09

though, I still think of them

7:11

as pretty expensive. I think I read the average

7:14

price is like $50,000 for an EV. Is

7:17

that right? Are they still a

7:19

little too pricey for,

7:22

you know, for widespread adoption? Yeah,

7:25

you're exactly right. There's a few trends

7:27

that work fair that are really unfortunate for the

7:29

consumer right now. One

7:31

is that you're actually right that new cars in

7:33

general are more expensive than ever since the pandemic.

7:36

They've skyrocketed. I last I checked, I think that

7:38

the average new car price in America, you know,

7:40

all it is about $47,000, $48,000, just far higher than it's ever been. It

7:45

never was before. You know, your

7:47

average EV is still going to be

7:49

slightly higher than that. We are seeing

7:51

those prices begin to fall based on

7:53

the data. I've seen we're approaching what's

7:55

called price parity with gas

7:57

vehicles, like meaning costs to build these BZs.

8:00

EVs, it's getting closer to the cost of

8:03

what we're used to these days. And

8:05

they've gone down, many dealers are offering discounts

8:07

on their EVs, the automakers are seeing that

8:10

the sales are kind of up and down,

8:12

they're offering discounts and help. So it's getting

8:14

better, but on the whole, these EVs are

8:16

more expensive than their gas car

8:19

counterparts. I just drove

8:22

the Chevrolet Blazer EV in California,

8:24

which the ones I drove were about $63,000. You

8:27

can get a very nice gas Blazer for about $45,000. And

8:30

I can see a lot of Chevrolet consumers sort of looking at that

8:32

like, well, why would I spend $20,000 more on

8:34

the electric car? Well, I mean, you never have to

8:37

buy gas for it. That's a huge savings. It

8:40

is for sure. And I think that that's kind

8:42

of an undersold benefit to these things. So you

8:44

still pay for electricity when you

8:46

fast charge, but on the whole, this is

8:48

vastly less money than filling up, you know,

8:51

like a large gas SUV was. There's definitely

8:53

benefits there. Amid

8:56

all this, President Biden has done quite a

8:58

bit to move the U.S. toward EV

9:01

adoption. Under his

9:03

administration, the EPA instituted new rules

9:06

that force automakers to limit emissions

9:08

and encourage more EV production. The

9:11

president's landmark climate legislation provides a

9:13

chunky tax credit to Americans who

9:15

buy certain EVs. The

9:17

administration is also providing funding directly

9:20

to automakers to help them transition

9:22

to electric. And the

9:24

companies themselves have spent billions. But

9:28

while the market for EVs has grown, it

9:30

hasn't moved as quick as carmakers have wanted.

9:34

It's deeply confusing. And there's been kind of

9:36

this narrative that's ran away this year that

9:38

I haven't really loved, which is that this

9:40

has been a great year for EV sales.

9:43

It's been phenomenal. I think it's the best

9:45

sales your Tesla's ever had, for example,

9:47

by far. But we're not

9:49

seeing that it's just this permanent up and

9:51

to the right curve. It is kind of

9:53

an up and down thing. You've seen a

9:55

lot of early adopters who've got these things.

10:00

the wait and see moment, they're waiting for charging to

10:02

get better, they're waiting for the prices to go down.

10:04

And I think these automakers are

10:07

really struggling to develop cars at

10:10

prices people want and prices that they

10:12

can afford. I think people want affordable

10:14

cars, period, but they're not

10:16

getting them. They're really certainly not getting them in the

10:18

EV market. I think that's part of the appeal of

10:20

the hybrid right now is like you don't see those

10:23

sky high prices for these hybrid models. This is a

10:25

bit of a premium over gas car, but it's not

10:28

an unbelievable amount of money and you

10:30

don't need dramatic changes to your lifestyle yet either like

10:32

you would for a full EV. Further

10:35

compounding the problem is the fact that EVs

10:37

are still an emerging technology. Many

10:40

people are waiting for adoption to become more

10:42

widespread before making the jump. In

10:44

the next few years, we're going to see all

10:46

of these cars are actually going to change what

10:48

type of plug they use for fast charging. They're

10:50

all going to go to Tesla's type of plug,

10:52

which will give everybody access to the Tesla charging

10:54

network, which is excellent. So

10:56

if you buy one of these now, I don't want

10:58

to say you're going to be locked into a damn

11:01

technology, but I think leasing is only for three years.

11:04

Trying this out, getting used to the electric lifestyle, seeing

11:06

how this works for you. I think that's kind of

11:08

a smart play as this technology

11:11

matures and kind of becomes more for everyone.

11:14

There's probably going to be several iPhone moments for

11:16

electric vehicles. I suppose it's just one thing. I

11:18

think it's going to be faster

11:20

charging. You've got to

11:22

see the charging experience get better.

11:25

The part of the story I didn't tell you earlier

11:27

with my poor wife trying to charge this Mercedes was

11:30

you have to use a smartphone app

11:32

to pay for that and to activate it.

11:34

The smartphone app and the charging network and

11:36

your car software all have to work perfectly

11:38

in tandem. If any one of those

11:40

things fails, it's not going to work. It's like, okay,

11:43

objectively, this is not as seamless as

11:45

getting gas. It just isn't. I think

11:47

that making that experience much easier and

11:50

foolproof and seamless and ubiquitous,

11:53

that's what's going to do it, I think. Some

11:55

of these EVs are there. They're

11:57

close to it. a

12:00

lot of planning ahead to ask people

12:02

to do, especially if they're... Yeah,

12:05

I kind of think about the difference between me,

12:07

who does this for work and covers this, and

12:09

someone who might be a single mother with three children,

12:12

and is just trying to get them to school or activities or

12:14

whatever on time. It does not have a lot of backup. And

12:16

it's like, okay, you're expecting that person to work charging

12:18

into their life like they would now. Like,

12:21

we're going to make some concessions to make this

12:23

work for everybody. And I don't think we're

12:27

there yet. When

12:29

we come back, are hybrids a

12:31

path towards full EV adoption or

12:34

a detour from the future we want? Hey

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13:46

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13:48

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13:53

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plus. So

14:49

to get back to hybrids, can

14:52

you just explain to me, I read

14:54

about plugin hybrids and then hybrid

14:56

hybrids, and I don't understand what

14:59

is it just literally one you plug in the other you

15:01

don't have to recharge? You

15:04

nailed it, actually. The plugin

15:06

hybrids, like the battery can be

15:08

recharged by the gasoline engine, but they're really meant

15:10

to be plugged in overnight to give it a

15:12

full battery there. I think we're

15:14

going to see more and more of these get phased

15:16

out over the next few years. It

15:19

feels almost counterintuitive, right? But the automakers,

15:21

they don't seem to want to make them. They

15:23

had a huge moment in Europe in the

15:26

recent years where corporations were getting a lot

15:28

of subsidies to lease these in their corporate

15:30

fleets, and people just weren't plugging

15:32

them in. And so, you know, when

15:34

you don't do that, the car doesn't work right.

15:36

So you're driving around with a gas engine with

15:38

a heavier car. Now you're lugging around a dead

15:41

battery. And they were worse on

15:43

emissions, they were worse on gas. And I think that

15:45

that's just being sort of, I'm not

15:47

sure what kind of how much of a future those

15:49

have. Pure hybrids, like

15:51

most Toyota Priuses, Are

15:54

just going to recharge the battery themselves by normal

15:56

driving. by the gasoline engine, by braking. And That's

15:58

a really seamless experience. The car

16:00

he put gas it occasionally and you really

16:02

don't worry about it otherwise. That

16:04

any reporting you said. A lot of people feel

16:06

like they don't even need an easy because they

16:08

have a hybrid. It serves their needs. I mean,

16:10

what? What are those examples of? Thank. You

16:13

I think that would think it's interesting

16:15

with the latest generation of hybrids, we're

16:17

seeing what's really excellent cars and some of

16:19

these will run on pure electricity for.

16:22

Thirty. Forty miles. And if you look at

16:24

your average American like that, most of the

16:26

driving we do when a day is thirty

16:28

rain. We. Think we're all like out on

16:31

the road, attack Iraq or whatever. but once

16:33

is going to like the supermarket and I'm

16:35

all. Exactly exactly so it's there's this

16:37

week we have this weird obsession with road

16:39

trips and raise your see this bleed over

16:42

him into the T V world to I've

16:44

talked to. concept is like Bmw and toilet

16:46

It's like once we don't really wanna make

16:48

six hundred mile he these an environmentally of

16:50

kind of a disaster but like work will

16:52

get a seat we could do business with

16:54

you American say you want some. So I

16:57

think that people are a little bit unrealistic

16:59

with their expectations. but you know with with

17:01

hybrids as like as if you buy this

17:03

car you'd be surprised how much. Gas

17:06

you don't use in and there

17:08

were several models of civil. my

17:10

colleagues even. Who. Are hybrid

17:12

owners and ever down or they'll get a lawyer

17:14

on the car. Like what drives thing more you

17:16

need to run the gas edge of more the

17:18

gas the sale. why allow it it'll it'll tell

17:20

you it's like this. This needs to be ran

17:22

a little bit arm which I think it's quite

17:24

funny. I would imagine playing into

17:27

the popularity of hybrids. This.

17:29

Year was said. Very high gas

17:31

prices we just had mostly last

17:33

year, but people. Don't forget so

17:35

fast riot and in the had like five dollar

17:37

gas and in America that's real bad. So. That

17:39

must have played a role here too. Easy

17:42

for sure enough. Best friend I've seen throughout

17:44

my entire career. Farm Americans, you know, for

17:46

all of our our are many great qualities

17:48

and strengths. As a people we tend to

17:51

think about five minutes into the future only

17:53

arm and. Almost. Always what

17:55

we see as when gaskets expensive people

17:57

by priuses. As. Edward

18:00

Gaskets cheap again Bay by Homers and

18:02

Silverado said that's just what we do

18:04

and how we operate arm And as

18:06

you both know, it's like we've seen

18:09

a tremendous amount of ups and down

18:11

the gas prices in recent years. your

18:13

fracking kept gas very cheap for very

18:15

long time. Is it going up again

18:17

because of rising energy costs? So a

18:19

tipping point would be like a permanent

18:21

upwards shift and gas prices that makes

18:23

this permanently. More expensive at the

18:25

pump than it's ever been. Hiding

18:27

that would that would see a very

18:30

rapid shift to electric vehicles very quickly,

18:32

but I've who knows how war, if

18:34

that, Whatever happens. As consumers

18:36

are clamoring for have ads, assets, manufacturers

18:38

and a tough spot. Summer. Biggest

18:41

automakers like General Motors and Volkswagen

18:43

stopped producing. Hybrids are together as

18:45

they focus on T V is.

18:48

Now they're rethinking that. Approach. Those.

18:50

Automakers. They're kind of looking at the market and

18:52

they're wondering maybe we should do snape. Maybe we

18:55

should get out offer this offs in the people

18:57

in excess. That or Indian that. but I think

18:59

that they'd know that if they do that they

19:01

take that step. It's probably

19:03

get a delay. They are pure Heavey

19:06

investments, man. And maybe that would work.

19:08

Out. Okay for them. They

19:10

emphasis on for them because you know work we're

19:12

seeing. A bit of us were seeing the sort

19:14

of slower up and down pace with you the

19:16

the adoption that's not what they want to sing,

19:18

they want to see you know rapid phase out

19:21

of gas cars and a rapid adoption of even

19:23

to replace them and idol the those things are

19:25

gonna happen in straight lines anymore. So it's It

19:27

is a real dilemma police car companies to figure

19:29

out what to offer. Especially if they're

19:31

facing you know very strict fuel economy role

19:33

and emissions rule switches when a driver behind

19:35

this this whole thing is you know gaming's

19:38

park is a pass having the baby making

19:40

the same cars they made the fifties sixties

19:42

if you didn't regulate the stuff so you

19:44

know if you're big push to that zero

19:46

emission direction or stricter fuel com a rule

19:48

that root word morning when you do you

19:50

do hybrids are do he these or put

19:52

the consumer. Ah, Adopt one or the

19:54

other it it is a tricky situation. A Bm.

19:57

But. i mean the bigger picture here zooming out

19:59

is the climate Good luck to the auto

20:01

manufacturers. But I mean, is the fact that so

20:03

many more consumers are turning

20:06

to hybrids? I mean, is

20:08

that a good thing or a bad thing for the climate?

20:10

Like what does that mean in terms of meeting goals?

20:13

Yeah, great question. And and the best answer I

20:15

can give you is it's good news But it's

20:17

not as good news as it could be because

20:20

you know These these hybrids one of the

20:22

many benefits that I don't think we think

20:24

about too much is that they do create

20:26

far less emissions I

20:28

think that the current Toyota Sienna minivan is hybrid

20:30

only It is the only one you could buy

20:33

as a hybrid and you know It creates less

20:35

than half the carbon emissions than its predecessor, which

20:37

was a non hybrid like that's very impressive. That

20:40

is awesome progress Let's let's

20:42

let's take a W where we can right

20:44

now in the climate apocalypse, right? but

20:47

you know on a long term, you know this Slowing

20:50

down the adoption of full EVs

20:52

and moving us to a zero

20:55

emission market And even it

20:57

slows that down. That is bad news for the climate.

20:59

That is bad news for the planet Earlier

21:02

this week on inside EVs one of

21:04

our contributors the wonderful environmental journalist Molly

21:06

Taft You know had

21:08

a story about this and she kind of looked

21:10

at automakers like Ford and General Motors and Volkswagen

21:13

That might be slowing down their EV goals

21:15

a little bit And she

21:17

kind of wondered like what does this mean for? Climate

21:20

change and what she determined was you know

21:23

Like the cars that Ford sold globally last

21:25

year alone like worldwide over the course their

21:27

lifetimes They will generate more

21:29

greenhouse emissions greenhouse gas emissions than

21:32

the entire country of Taiwan in its

21:34

in one year That's

21:37

just Ford over the course of their lifetimes

21:39

one automaker So you're seeing how serious this

21:41

is and why why it's imperative

21:43

to replace these cars new cars With

21:47

zero emission once now, it's like you don't get rid of

21:49

all of the problems when you do that We know that

21:51

it creates a lot it takes a lot of emissions to

21:54

build electric vehicles What Do you

21:56

do with the countless gas cars that are gonna be on

21:58

the roads and in service for decades to come? I

22:00

have yet to get a good answer on that was

22:02

but it's like if we have to start somewhere is

22:04

the week with with this is not an action that.

22:06

Can be pushed off much longer I

22:08

think. So. What

22:11

I'm hearing I think as hybrids are

22:13

better than nothing but it would be

22:15

even better to just slits right over

22:17

Cvs and have zero emissions are sort

22:19

of zero missions because there's a lot

22:21

of the Mrs Evolves and building the

22:23

cars. and also I mean we haven't

22:26

really talked about it but there's climate

22:28

impacts for easy as separate some of

22:30

the fossil fuel as you re at

22:32

a mean and in mining a lot

22:34

of the minerals you need to build

22:36

the battery is creates it's own soreness.

22:38

Pandora's Box as. It does

22:40

for sure and a there's there's been massive

22:43

inroads have been made in the battery recycling

22:45

plants been out which is not going to

22:47

be can do for gas cars. You know

22:49

the inferior we could we could get repurchasing

22:52

lithium ion batteries. For very long time

22:54

the creek have a more sustainable ecosystem doing

22:56

that are not convinced as if you know

22:58

a silver bullet yet. Ah, But.

23:01

It, You're right it is. It is tricky

23:03

because this is seeing more hybrids on the

23:05

road is is good but it's it's not

23:07

be zero emission. Transformation we need. And

23:09

the more I've covered this stuff, the more I

23:11

really feel like this war see now is stuff

23:13

that we should be doing in the nineties. Back.

23:16

When we were really becoming can be cognizant

23:18

of the the realities of climate change. When

23:20

the first hybrids were coming out we spot

23:22

You know we should have All this industry

23:24

should have been going like largely hybrid in

23:26

a two thousand for example and building up

23:28

a zero mission. Ah, Infrastructure

23:31

and path forward in the last decade

23:33

between tens of. Fortunately our on on

23:35

multiple fronts does not wear wrath so

23:37

we're like family. The flight sets up

23:40

now. That a very difficult. Time

23:42

for this This This act. On

23:45

top of that in l thousand in. A. Room

23:47

of every interview Id right now is.

23:50

The. Election. Relax some. Yeah what?

23:52

Happened see these you know said

23:54

of republican administration. Be in charge. And

23:56

Twenty Twenty Five. Yeah. that that's this

23:59

is going to be very mostly

26:00

gas cars, this is still a

26:02

new-ish thing. It's hard

26:04

to understand the world of electric cars until you live

26:06

it, until you drive these things and you try it

26:09

and you see what charging is like. It's

26:11

like, oh, okay, I could actually make this work. And when

26:13

you see what home charging is like, there's a lot of

26:15

misconceptions, a lot of fear. And

26:18

almost everyone I've shown this technology

26:20

to or I've let them experience

26:22

it or drive it themselves, they kind of get it

26:24

after a while. So I think that there's, maybe

26:27

it's on the part the automakers or the dealers

26:29

even or policymakers to kind of educate people and

26:31

show them this is what it's like, this is

26:33

what you're in for. Probably

26:35

not gonna get stuck, it's not gonna ruin your life. Here

26:38

are the headaches you're gonna have to deal with, they are getting

26:40

better. It is kind of showing people a way forward. And

26:42

again, in the spirit of optimism, I

26:45

think one thing we can take away from the success

26:47

of hybrid this year is that people

26:49

do want to break up with gasoline. If

26:51

you give them a reason not to pay it the

26:53

pump, like they're gonna take it. And

26:56

I think that this, hopefully would be the ultimate

26:58

reason to be doing that. So maybe there's some

27:00

progress to be found in that trend as well.

27:07

Patrick, thank you so much. Emily,

27:09

thank you so much for having me on, this was wonderful. Patrick

27:14

George is the editor in chief at Inside

27:17

EVs and a contributing writer at The Atlantic.

27:20

And that's it for our show today. Your

27:22

next TBD is produced by Evan Campbell, Patrick

27:24

Fort and Anna Phillips. Our

27:26

show is edited by Mia Armstrong Lopez.

27:29

Alicia Montgomery is vice president of audio

27:31

for Slate. TBD is part of

27:33

the larger What Next family. TBD

27:36

is also part of Future Tense, a partnership

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of Slate, Arizona State University

27:40

and New America. If you're

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taking a little break for the holidays, but we'll

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be back in January. I'm Emily

27:55

Peck filling in for Lizzie O'Leary and you can

27:58

catch me on Saturdays at Slate Money. Thanks

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