Episode Transcript
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0:01
We we need to give you an African named. Josh Yeah,
0:03
we're fine. We need we need to
0:05
find something for you. Want
0:08
to call you call it like Mancha Mans
0:10
I would be a good South African mean
0:12
what does that mean? It means strength? Know
0:15
it gives. Actually, just you know. Why
0:19
you laughing at yourself if is
0:21
just. A. Straight.
0:27
A's way I was do about meet greet
0:29
last night at the club after the show
0:32
here and there was a big man big
0:34
big man tall man right and he was
0:36
so excited at he was like i've been
0:38
watch and on facebook and I'm so proud
0:40
of you and he grabbed my hand and
0:43
his hair was so big he was so
0:45
strong that i we both hurt my knuckle
0:47
pop. Ever. Had health or
0:49
his head of get him at all I
0:51
all outside of i bought our good of
0:53
good and I'll be there for the i
0:55
tried to adjust by oh but and that
0:58
it's funny and so for you that x
1:00
ray to be like obliterate. I
1:02
find that a lot of the African name's the people
1:04
have been given. Have. Actually,
1:07
Proved. True in some way. shape or
1:09
form. And. So I feel like if we
1:11
give you much lower than than you'll you know
1:13
how do you say money muscles. Money?
1:16
Muscles? Yeah. Just go ahead and get
1:18
both of them in one. I'm sorry,
1:21
what? Act.
1:24
You're listening to what now?
1:26
The podcast where I chatter
1:28
interesting people about the conversations
1:31
taking over our world will
1:33
start off by hitting some
1:35
fun news stories is a
1:37
i just a farce. And
1:39
can we finally start slinging
1:42
racist report cards and corporations?
1:45
But the big idea for
1:47
this week? Masculinity? Violent. and
1:49
why we keep seeing stories
1:51
of young people, especially young
1:53
men harming others. Out of a
1:55
sense of alienation from society. Will touch
1:57
on some serious themes today, but like.
2:00
We think having no matter the topic if you're
2:02
doing it was smart people you respect he can
2:04
always find a way for have a reward a
2:06
conversation. Now the
2:08
only thing I love more sense
2:10
healing back the layers of a
2:12
story is doing it's with my
2:15
favorite. Think of the Once again.
2:17
I'm joined by writer and journalist
2:19
Christiana Bug where Medina and Comedian
2:21
writer Strongest Man In The World
2:23
Josh. Welcome.
2:26
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on Hulu. What's
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up everybody? Happy podcast day. How y'all doing?
4:22
Happy podcast day. I'm doing well. Happy
4:24
podcast day. Josh, how's the road treating
4:26
you? Because I feel like you... I
4:29
mean like obviously we used to roll together on the road
4:32
all the time but these days you're like now you're like
4:35
road, road comic. How are you
4:37
feeling? Is it lonely? Is it
4:39
tiring? I feel
4:41
pretty good actually. I feel like my entire life
4:43
has been preparing me for this. I've slept on
4:45
a lot of couches. I've done
4:48
a lot of things in life
4:50
to get to this point and
4:52
I was a road dog the whole time without knowing it.
4:55
Right. My life has been preparing me for
4:58
this moment. All my life
5:00
this is what I've been preparing for.
5:02
Christiana, how's life treating you? How's the mom
5:05
world going? It's miserable.
5:07
OB has pinkeye. He's always
5:10
getting something so I had to go and get
5:12
him from school because like when you have pinkeye
5:15
as a preschooler you become an untouchable.
5:17
Like I think it's better to get COVID than pinkeye
5:19
at this point. Do
5:22
children know that they
5:24
have these issues? Do
5:26
they even remember it? Oh yeah. No, they know
5:28
they're disgusting. So now, OB's like running around trying
5:30
to put
5:33
his eyes on everyone because he knows he's got
5:35
something good in his eye. So they're like very
5:37
self-aware. I was thinking more like remorse. No,
5:39
no, no, no. He's like, I want you to have
5:42
eyes like me, mommy. I'm like, no, I don't want
5:44
to have green stuff coming out of
5:46
my eye. Stupid American. Yeah, it's another thing
5:48
that he's American, which is very weird. I
5:50
have an American child. Oh
5:53
yeah. Very strange
5:55
to have like, I didn't think I'd have
5:57
an American child. That's fascinating. I just assumed
5:59
your child was Smoke like you are now. I'm like
6:01
oh no, you haven't about it. I think that's. What He
6:03
wants? Something you like Mommy: Can I have
6:05
chocolate? Actually,
6:10
Live outside my business. Here I am
6:12
I was as I have. you do.
6:16
Oh my goodness Santana! Well I'm glad to
6:18
hear what the snow and pleasure live. I'm
6:20
glad I know maybe this is good This
6:22
is good I'm I'm I'm happy for one.
6:24
Welcome to welcome to episode everybody and will
6:27
come to everybody listening or we got a
6:29
fun show today as it's a interesting smoke.
6:31
Everything about it will be fun but I
6:33
think the conversations around it's will be fun.
6:35
I was have fun having. Conversations Regardless
6:37
of how difficult the Os and Us
6:40
for today's episode you know I I
6:42
think there's one big topic that's we
6:44
really need to get into and it
6:46
involves the stabbing that success in Australia
6:48
a few weeks ago which. You
6:51
know everyone agrees is really really
6:53
sad story that I think. Added
6:56
a little more texture to to.
6:59
You know, massive violence in a way that
7:01
that other stories oftentimes can't or don't I'm
7:03
so will be chatting about that as well.
7:05
But first I want to jump off with
7:07
a few. I'm. Sure, the fun
7:10
stories that like the life stories
7:12
that I think everyone should be
7:14
assessed should be aware of. My
7:16
favorite one easily easily easily is
7:18
I'm you both aware of. The
7:21
Amazon stores that would launched were you
7:23
could walk into a store. Pick.
7:25
Everything up, put it into basket and leave
7:27
without paying. You both remember this right? And
7:30
yes, because it felt like a trap. It.
7:32
Did Josh I remember you saying this? By the
7:34
way, it did feel like a transit as a
7:36
black man in America Gaidar just go in. To.
7:39
Describe what are we want to smoke and. See
7:43
what happens? See what happens.
7:45
But I'm. Yet. And
7:47
it was. It was amazing technology. you know Amazon
7:49
As I take as the said this is the
7:51
future of this is a I'm and and a
7:53
lot of people were angry obviously. Because.
7:56
They felt like this was another example. Of
7:59
Jobs. Being taken away from
8:01
people. well, I have good
8:03
news for the jobs people and bad news for
8:05
the Ai people. It turns
8:07
out. That's. It.
8:10
Was the team of about a thousand
8:12
people in India. Who. Was
8:15
hired. To. Just watch customers
8:17
shop and review their transactions. A.
8:20
I'd. Stood for all Indian.
8:22
And. It was just. Sitting
8:25
there was just a thousand Indian people
8:27
watching you in a store and then
8:29
they which is basically do all the
8:32
hard work. Seen. All those people
8:34
were like a as gonna kill us know a i
8:36
won't kill us. A few
8:38
people from India will kill us because they've been
8:40
hired. Oh
8:46
wow. The thing
8:49
I do like about Amazon is a
8:51
site a on Zealand's and kind of
8:53
to embrace being finance. To don't
8:55
like med let like that there's no
8:57
pretense with them at so they're like
8:59
oh yeah we mess with our competition
9:01
and we just holler people in india
9:04
and then if you concern us about
9:06
were like oh you're lying yeah like
9:08
is to say I just owning being
9:10
the bad guy with his refreshing Most
9:12
companies like all within a be good
9:14
to the environmental impact will apologize yeah
9:17
other companies will apologize they definitely fall.
9:19
There's just two camps of of have
9:21
Pr and how people move after a
9:23
scandal like this building. Amazon. Way and
9:25
Apple way. Apple knows that they're no longer
9:27
giving us such a good product that will
9:29
shut up. They know they changed the plugs
9:32
too many times. They know that like speed
9:34
of Sound like they they know they've got
9:36
a lot of guys because I like y'all
9:38
Y'all okay because they know they can't double
9:40
dip you can either have a bad product
9:42
and make us feel good about using that
9:44
are you can make us feel good about
9:46
you mean like the gay ass for you
9:48
have a good product and you don't care
9:51
about how? Yeah, Because I always and Amazon
9:53
is like. You. Caught us and what
9:55
you don't do about it has ss and
9:57
I bet you still want those trays in.
10:00
Today's those trades you order. If you
10:02
want to give you a quaint you
10:04
go shut up by. It's interesting. What
10:06
one of the only upsides of not
10:08
having a permanent abode for myself, not
10:10
having a home has been the fact
10:12
that I'd I'd barely use Amazon anymore.
10:15
I. She'd as he didn't realize how.
10:18
Am I addicted to Amazon? I was.
10:20
Actually, I was ordering everything for no
10:23
reason. I mean like everything
10:25
everything I would sit down on a chess and
10:27
then I'll be like ah man I wish I
10:29
could I wish I could put my seats on
10:31
something that was also a screen for my books
10:33
at the same and have gone amazon and of
10:35
like foothold a book screen device and it would
10:38
be there and I would order it and would
10:40
come to my house and I'll be like yeah
10:42
this is great I'm okay so in on the
10:44
one you want to talk about villains are this.
10:46
This was a great story This was I mean
10:49
I say great but the please for everyone listening
10:51
understand I mean you to know me when I
10:53
say great. Is sometimes it It.
10:55
It's not because it is good, is
10:57
just because it illuminates something that sparks
10:59
conversation. So I'm. Eat.
11:01
There is no denying. That
11:03
ah, there's a lot of racism
11:05
in hiring. Sites. But
11:08
there is also no denying that lot
11:10
of a time black people look crazy
11:12
when they say there is racism. In
11:15
hiring I think we we all know each
11:17
different versions of of what that feels like.
11:19
You know, like often out often say to
11:21
people. Racism is a lot
11:24
like I'm It's like it's like
11:26
an invisible bus. Ride
11:28
that only hits black people when they
11:30
cross the road. An older
11:32
white people who with them or like what happens you.
11:35
And. Then I can see a bus. And like there
11:37
was no bus. I don't know why you always do
11:39
this and that there was a busts. The bus is
11:41
the reason I could walk across the road and the
11:44
last. Why did the bus hit me and I don't
11:46
know why the posted messages and you feel like you're
11:48
crazy or this this this is it. That an amazing
11:50
story. There was a at the
11:52
study that was released nights and essentially
11:54
what happened was these researchers came out
11:56
and then they did release the study
11:58
And Twenty Twenty One. like trying to
12:01
figure out like you know how do
12:03
companies hire why do they hire etc
12:05
etc etc but but what they did
12:07
was they applied
12:09
to a bunch of companies
12:12
and they
12:14
basically generated resumes that
12:16
were all exactly the same however
12:18
the only thing they changed on the resumes was
12:21
they changed the names they changed
12:23
the names to be like
12:26
white names quote-unquote you know
12:28
like Brock and Chad and
12:31
then the other ones they chose like
12:33
names that are considered really black you
12:35
know and so they're like Demar and
12:37
like Kashanda and those types of names and
12:40
they submitted these applications to the same companies
12:43
in the same manner at the same time
12:46
and the results they got
12:48
back were crazy basically
12:51
what they found was
12:53
if you have a white sounding name like
12:55
the spread is 9% in your favor and that
12:58
you're more likely to get called in for the
13:00
interview but what was more
13:02
interesting than usual in these studies which we've
13:04
seen before is they broke it down by
13:06
the companies and it turns out and maybe
13:08
there's a little bit of good news by the way it turns out
13:11
that the 9% wasn't evenly
13:13
shared by every single company so there were
13:15
some companies where it was only like 3%
13:18
which is still not perfect but it was
13:20
only like 3% right but then there were
13:22
some companies and it was really interesting that
13:25
they were particularly in like
13:27
the field of like auto parts right
13:30
it was like car parts particularly in
13:33
those fields it was a 24% gap so if you had a
13:37
black sounding name you were
13:39
really up against it in getting an interview
13:42
at these auto parts companies and
13:46
I mean I as I said I said a
13:48
great story and what I mean by that is
13:50
it vindicates a lot of people for sure if
13:52
you're going for a job interview you
13:54
should change your name on the
13:57
application is what I think I
13:59
mean look Josh Johnson is pretty
14:01
much a win. That's
14:03
a pretty much a great name. That's a W
14:05
out, right? It's not until they see me because
14:07
even on the phone on the phone I give
14:09
them what they're what they're looking for No,
14:12
you you're fantastic. I remember when we hired you on the
14:14
daily show I was I was
14:16
like like we looked through the submissions and we
14:18
saw your writing and I was like man This
14:20
this guy's amazing and I was like he is
14:22
really in touch with the black experience This
14:25
is surprising. You don't normally see white writers who
14:27
are this in touch with the black experience You
14:31
know and I was like let's see this josh johnson
14:33
person and then you walked in and I
14:35
was like, huh? You you
14:37
are the josh johnson and and
14:40
then you started speaking then I was like, oh no, this is the josh
14:42
johnson And
14:45
uh Be
14:53
careful now Not
14:55
too much on josh. No, no,
14:57
no, but he knows You
15:00
know, it's you know, what's funny about this. So my mom my
15:02
mom had this so I
15:05
think one of the reasons my mom did
15:07
as well as she did in life is
15:09
because I mean
15:11
like most black south africans We
15:13
had what was you know The same way they say in
15:15
america like your your government name and then like your name
15:18
And so in south africa you had a traditional name that
15:20
was afforded to you by your tribe, you know christiana You
15:22
know what i'm talking about as well as nigerians But
15:25
you then you had like a biblical white name
15:27
that you had to have because the government had
15:29
no interest in learning names Like nombuisello and kosnati
15:32
and like, you know, no matan san. They were
15:34
like, no There's clicks in your names and they're
15:36
like no like I can imagine the apartheid government
15:38
back then They were just like listen, you
15:41
can have your name, but let's be
15:43
civil and choose something that everybody can
15:45
pronounce. Okay So there's
15:47
pops and and clicks in your name. That's not
15:49
gonna work. So they they forced Black
15:52
south africans to have a quote unquote, you
15:54
know, like white name And
15:56
so my mom's name is patricia All
15:59
right But the interesting thing about
16:01
it is like, I think
16:03
like you Josh, my mom was really
16:05
good at code switching on the telephone.
16:09
And so whenever my mom would call for
16:11
a job or for an interview or anything,
16:13
she'd phone as Patricia. And
16:16
then she'd speak on the phone and
16:18
she had like a very professional sounding voice. Even
16:21
with me when I phone my mom, even though
16:23
my name shows up on her phone, she'll answer
16:25
in a very... She'd be like, Patricia speaking good
16:27
afternoon, how can I help you? And I'm
16:29
like, hi mom. And then she's like, hello Pooty. And
16:32
it's like, she's immediately... I'm like, you
16:34
know, it was me all along. She's like, I don't know who's
16:36
calling me. I don't know who's calling me. I'm like, my name
16:38
is there. But I genuinely
16:40
think sometimes maybe
16:42
my family got like 10,
16:45
15, 20% leg up just
16:48
because my mom had a voice that you
16:50
couldn't discern as black on the phone. I
16:54
sometimes think about that. I had no
16:56
chance like Mbakwe. No, Mbakwe is like... You see
16:58
that they're like Nigerian
17:01
credit card fraud. No. She's not
17:03
coming here. Like I just had
17:06
no chance. Yeah, Mbakwe is like
17:08
a full on Mbakwe. Like people
17:10
hear your name and they're like, wait, is
17:12
that like Black Panther? Yeah,
17:14
I never like... My name always
17:16
gives me away, but I think
17:18
we should just reclaim it. That's the
17:20
new thing I'm in. Like I gave Obie
17:22
a very Igbo first name, because I was
17:25
just like, if you're going to be the
17:27
first Igbo president of America, you need to
17:29
have an Igbo first name. Yeah, that was
17:31
how I was dreaming. You went all in on that. Yeah,
17:33
I just think you should... Because the problem is
17:35
with... My name is a problem because like the
17:37
first name is Anglicized and
17:40
the second name is very like
17:42
Nigerian. And I'm just like, that
17:44
throws people off. It makes them
17:46
uncomfortable. Like big aside. Like Josh Johnson
17:48
to me, perfect name. Did you ever know a
17:50
perfect name? Christian Mbakwe, what are we doing? It's
17:53
true. You know what I'm saying? It's true. So I'm
17:55
just like, I'm just going to give him an ethnic
17:58
first name because the names have meaning. And.
18:00
History And I'm just like maybe I'll just have to
18:02
bribe someone to give him a job plate just as
18:04
our school and. So
18:07
you know what you noticed was great about the story
18:09
was. There been
18:11
many studies over the years that have shown
18:13
that there is racial bias in hiring. Pause
18:17
what was interesting but the study was they
18:19
named and shamed the companies involved like since
18:21
the auto dealers as like associational the read
18:24
the retailers and com pots and lot of
18:26
people had mixed emotions about the some people
18:28
like yes good to name and shame them
18:30
and then others are like know it's not
18:32
good to do this because they might be
18:35
no metastasize and those companies will become defend
18:37
our at like I personally I was like
18:39
yeah you should you should name and shame
18:41
them but I don't know a mullet with
18:44
the two of you think about this. Year.
18:46
I mean I think I think naming
18:48
is important because he up the also
18:51
to remember of all the companies that
18:53
there are in in the country you're
18:55
only naming a few. So it's
18:57
not as if you're doing the sweeping thing
18:59
of like we're naming and shaming every single
19:01
one of you and we're coming for you
19:03
sites. I find that the greatest lesson is
19:05
when you do dodged the bullet where you
19:07
we were. the company gets named and you're
19:09
a similar company and now your ideals. That
19:11
could have been Us Sigma So you basically
19:13
saying you you may go, you may go
19:16
an example of them. Just just yeah.
19:18
Is it out as missive? we're talking about
19:20
so few like it's not like this was
19:22
a thing carried out across every company in
19:24
one stays off wants to? You want to
19:26
break corporate kneecaps? that would you want to
19:28
be easy to lose the latest a few
19:30
just go from one you notice every every
19:32
now and then. Yeah I'm know what you're
19:34
capable of. I think that naming is so
19:37
important to you you'll get any movements and
19:39
the if there's some by that like almost
19:41
like a beacon as an example of like
19:43
this is what this movement is after dessert
19:45
type behavior buried them we don't like now.
19:47
You look at you with a of a
19:49
me to and Harvey Weinstein rice is yeah
19:51
air by that look like Harvey Weinstein Now
19:53
Gotta be on their best behavior. Of
19:58
they know what they look like. After
20:01
with their if they're on a beach
20:03
their light let me that do this
20:05
to people let me go ahead and
20:07
put on a song remains Let me
20:09
go ahead nothing but towards your professional
20:12
because you got a name of have
20:14
voice oh wow what do you. What?
20:16
Do you think about the the but was
20:18
not the burden per se but. I
20:21
see it as a joke. And I know
20:23
some people like good really offended even some
20:25
my friends I go you know the like
20:27
all what do we do about this if
20:29
you have a black named companies won't kill
20:31
you in for the interview and then i
20:33
say like i'm like wow old than you
20:35
just put fake names. When the
20:37
people like know Trevor, how dare you even
20:39
suggest the and understand where they're coming from?
20:42
I'll be honest with you. but I sometimes
20:44
wonder if. Winning a
20:46
battle. Is. How
20:50
can I put it? Okay I think of like the
20:52
trojan horse. My story of Detroit trojan Horse. I'm.
20:55
Sure there was some people who like this is dishonorable. We're.
20:57
Going to. Creep. Into the
20:59
belly of a wooden horse. And. Like
21:01
a bunch of cowards to infiltrate the
21:04
city. He didn't do
21:06
mean. Yes, But then the question is,
21:08
what? Like what are we seeking And I. I'm
21:10
not saying you, you can't do both, By the way, But.
21:13
I also wonder if this is a some merit
21:15
in sneaking and like getting the people and if
21:17
you know there's a if you know there's a
21:19
short cut or a hack. To
21:21
circumvent. Racism. should you take it's.
21:25
I think. On the say so
21:27
that that may result in a job
21:29
that my thinking is always been lights
21:32
is the are hostile to my name.
21:34
You're definitely going to be hostile to
21:36
my presence sites you think of anything.
21:38
Yeah, because I think that effect it
21:40
is indicative of something sepa. Like
21:43
their estimates that not afraid of.
21:45
Black name's they're afraid of
21:47
the. Possibility. Of black
21:49
people or foreign nestle otherness. And
21:51
yes, I can never sit. What?
21:54
You wanted like the ideal that you
21:56
have enough company. Right? Like I'll give
21:58
you an example. of like our show.
22:01
A black woman that was hired and
22:03
joined later said during her interview she saw me
22:05
walking past and I had my afro out. It's
22:07
actually in it and Enid was like, oh I
22:09
can work here. Oh that's amazing. Because the girls
22:12
have natural hair and have their afro out. And
22:14
that's a symbol like it's just it's just
22:16
some hair but it sends a message. And
22:19
to me if like if a
22:21
company culture or an institution is just resistant
22:23
to the name like that means how are
22:25
they going to feel when I show up
22:27
with my braids or my natural hair or
22:29
the actual real more quote unquote aggressive
22:31
symbols of blackness. That's not somewhere I would want
22:33
to be but also I know not everyone has
22:35
that choice right. People need jobs Trevor. So this
22:37
is kind of like a very privileged take to
22:40
be like I don't want to work somewhere where
22:42
they don't like afro hair or they don't like
22:44
black women. Other people it's just like I need
22:46
a job and your technique may be the thing
22:48
they need to do. I
22:50
completely agree with this but I also
22:52
sometimes wonder about the value of
22:55
infiltration. Yeah.
23:00
And what I mean what I mean about
23:02
this is like I think sometimes we take for
23:04
granted and you know you and I we always
23:06
have these discussions. I'm an eternal optimist and
23:08
I know it's a utopian idea
23:10
and I know that it doesn't always pan out but
23:12
like I think there's something magical
23:15
that happens to human beings when they come
23:17
into contact with other human beings who
23:20
give them a real idea of
23:22
what just one facet of
23:25
that group of people could be like. Yeah.
23:27
I mean that's been most of my
23:30
experiences mostly because of my name I
23:32
really do believe is that like I've
23:34
definitely had jobs where I looked around
23:36
and I was like the only black
23:38
person and I've
23:40
definitely shown up to places where people
23:43
are like you're Josh and I'm like
23:45
yeah and they're like oh okay. Like
23:47
it's a thing that happens that I'm
23:50
not saying I was like intentionally trying
23:52
to infiltrate. I've never like hidden who
23:54
I am or anything but you know
23:57
you go back to the analogy of
23:59
the Trojans. horse and what city burned
24:01
that night? You
24:06
slip in with that horse and you got it.
24:09
You killing the game now. Oh,
24:12
wow. Oh, man. Alright,
24:16
let's take a quick break. When
24:19
we come back, let's jump into
24:21
some of the bigger topics of
24:23
the week that have really gotten
24:25
people talking. Like ask
24:27
ourselves a question. Can
24:29
we have the conversations in
24:32
society? Are we equipped to have the conversation
24:34
necessary to deal with some
24:36
of the more difficult issues
24:38
that society is facing? My
24:42
thought is Josh
24:44
will figure it out. Oh, uh-oh.
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27:09
this story is a story
27:12
that, you know, is terrible and
27:16
has now left many of
27:18
the people involved
27:20
directly or indirectly asking questions
27:25
about where society is headed, and
27:27
particularly young men. But before
27:29
we get into discussing it, I mean, let's try
27:31
and get everybody on the same page. So, there
27:34
was a story that came out of Sydney,
27:36
Australia where
27:40
a young man went into
27:42
a shopping mall and
27:44
just went on a stabbing rampage is
27:46
the best way to put it. Like,
27:49
chased after people in the mall, tried
27:51
to stab as many people as possible, stabbed
27:53
six people to death, and then
27:56
I think injured more than a dozen. And,
27:58
you know, the police... came in, they
28:00
shot the kid dead and
28:04
immediately obviously the press went to
28:06
the dad's house and
28:09
they wanted to know, they're like, hey, do you know why
28:11
your son would go and kill a
28:13
bunch of strangers? And it's
28:15
one of the saddest videos you'll ever see because there's
28:17
this Australian man, he's standing outside his house and
28:20
he's addressing the crowd in a way that
28:22
I've seen very few parents address a crowd
28:24
when their child has been involved in something this
28:27
terrible. And he says to them, he
28:29
says, and I paraphrase, he says, I know
28:32
to you he's a monster, but
28:35
to me he's my son and I'm
28:38
loving a monster, I love my son. To
28:40
you he's a monster, but to me he was a very sick
28:43
boy. And then the
28:45
dad goes on to say, they say, do you know why he
28:47
would have done this? And he says, yeah, I do know why
28:49
he would have done this. And he's like, because he wanted a
28:51
girlfriend and he's really
28:53
frustrated and he has no social
28:55
skills. And then he talks
28:57
about his son's mental health and he says, when I
29:00
found out my son had mental health issues, I dedicated
29:02
everybody to serving him and I wanted to help him
29:04
as much as I could. But,
29:06
you know, my son moved away and he
29:08
says, and then I couldn't help him the way I wanted
29:10
to. And then, you know,
29:13
this happened in Sydney. And
29:16
I think the reason the story is so
29:19
interesting is because where
29:21
most times we can focus on the gun, which
29:23
I think is necessary because the tool that people
29:25
can use to do bad things should also be
29:27
limited so that the effect of the bad things
29:29
can be minimized. This
29:32
conversation I find was a
29:34
lot clearer and a lot more difficult and a lot
29:36
more painful because it made us ask
29:38
the question, is
29:40
there an epidemic amongst young men who feel
29:43
that they
29:45
cannot get with a
29:47
woman, do not have a girlfriend, do
29:50
not find themselves in loving relationships, are
29:52
socially awkward, do not know how to connect with
29:55
people of the opposite sex? And
29:57
have we created a culture that I think is a very important part
29:59
of the conversation? them and
30:01
is the internet the perfect
30:05
fertilizer that grows them into angry
30:07
men who believe the world has
30:09
done them wrong. It's
30:11
interesting, Christiana and Josh, you
30:13
are two of the people who I think have some
30:15
of the most thoughtful ideas
30:17
on this topic because we've spoken about it
30:20
for years. But
30:22
I wonder, Christiana, when you first saw
30:24
the story, what
30:26
were some of your thoughts? I mean,
30:28
the fact that five out of the
30:30
six people that were killed were
30:33
women was something I thought about a lot. One
30:35
of them was a mother who
30:37
protected her nine-month-old daughter who we
30:39
also stabbed. The
30:42
particular details were very horrifying.
30:45
The police were immediately like, it's not
30:47
terrorism, but I do believe it was
30:50
an act of terrorism against women specifically
30:52
and don't often think about misogyny
30:54
and the violent results of that as
30:56
a form of terrorism. I
30:59
felt like I'm at a unique intersection, not just being
31:01
a woman, but like a mother of a boy. It
31:04
was actually Trevor and I have a friend
31:06
and Josh called Joe Opeo. He
31:09
was my office mate. When he found out
31:11
I was pregnant with a boy, he
31:13
said, Christiana, you're raising a nuclear weapon.
31:16
He was like, don't
31:18
take your eye off the board. Oh,
31:20
man. That sounds like Joe. Yeah. It
31:23
was something that I always think about when I look
31:25
at my son and how sweet and
31:27
loving and caring he is. I think a
31:29
lot of boys lose that as they grow.
31:32
I think that lack of emotion only continues
31:34
into adulthood. It's something I really do think
31:36
about. I do think
31:38
that there is a crisis of masculinity
31:41
and I think that women are bearing the
31:43
brunt of that crisis. I
31:47
actually don't know what the solution is. There's
31:50
so many men that sit at home on their
31:52
computers all day. They actually don't have
31:55
male friends, like a male community that
31:57
they physically can see and
31:59
they just arrive at home. in these dark places of
32:01
the internet because that's the only place that they can
32:03
be seen and what's being seen
32:05
is their anger and hurt and that's what they
32:07
just lean into. So
32:10
yeah, you know, I often wonder and I
32:12
know this is like a crazy thing to
32:14
say sometimes and I don't think
32:16
that I can articulate it perfectly
32:18
but I think it's worth speaking about
32:20
nonetheless. We
32:22
never consider the
32:25
ramifications of moving from
32:27
one system to another rapidly.
32:29
You know, we used to live in a world where
32:32
men would get a woman. Just think about that for
32:34
a second. Men would just get a
32:36
woman. Families would just go,
32:38
my boy, I have found you a young lady
32:40
and she's from the house of Heatherton and she
32:42
will be a wife and you just had a
32:45
wife. There's some cultures in the world that still do
32:47
that. You are a boy, you become
32:49
old enough and you get a
32:52
wife. It is done, it's there for you,
32:54
right? We've lived
32:56
in a world where for a long time just
32:58
being a man meant that you had a job
33:00
because women were excluded from the workplace and so
33:03
the only people you were competing with were other
33:05
men. And when you look at all the changes
33:07
we've made, very positive by the way, very positive
33:10
changes we've made, I don't think
33:12
we've considered the ramifications of some of those changes
33:15
and how they've affected men who
33:18
now find themselves living a meaningless
33:20
existence. Because we say job but
33:23
really, job is just purpose,
33:25
it's just meaning. I don't
33:27
know if either of you have thought about this,
33:29
it's just like how
33:31
do we give somebody a purpose that maybe
33:33
isn't a job or is there even
33:35
a way to do that? I mean, I
33:38
can't speak to the actual way but
33:40
based on what you're saying
33:42
of purpose is no
33:45
one needs any man
33:47
in an American society, right, to be
33:49
the old version of how men need
33:51
it to be. Our bodies
33:53
though don't know what year it is and
33:56
so the fact that there's no real war that you
33:58
need to go fight and not war. is in
34:00
as if we're not at war because as Americans we
34:02
stay at war. We just do war over there. But
34:07
we don't need to be at war.
34:09
We don't need to struggle the way
34:11
that all of the built-up like hormones
34:13
and testosterone in the body are telling
34:15
you to struggle. We also don't need
34:19
procreation in the same way. Like
34:21
now marriages are mostly
34:23
love marriages and people
34:26
are very intentional about how many kids that
34:28
they have. And I think that some
34:30
of what we're seeing on a level
34:32
that affects all men because incel is
34:34
like not just a white male
34:37
thing or a white male attitude. It's something
34:39
that I think affects a whole swath of
34:41
young men. And I think that sometimes rightly
34:43
so I'm not saying this is bad but
34:46
they're sometimes being chastised to about a world
34:48
that they are not taking part in in
34:50
the same way. So a lot of times
34:52
when people take the
34:54
world to task all the men that
34:57
you're mad at already won. So
34:59
you're right. I've had feminist
35:02
friends talk to me about why we're so
35:04
screwed up and the men that did and
35:06
everything. I'm like yes you're right about that.
35:08
But who you're talking about is a senator
35:10
right now. They're not the dog walker that's
35:12
20 years old. That's interesting. And
35:15
this is not to make literally to not
35:17
make excuses. It's to try to find
35:19
somewhere in the conversation that is a
35:22
through line and a path through to
35:24
speak to men about what it is
35:26
about being a man that still matters
35:28
without getting into like the androotateness of
35:30
the world because then that's the last
35:32
piece of the puzzle that's the problem.
35:34
No. You know it's funny. I completely
35:36
agree with you and I think so.
35:39
So this is the thing I think we
35:41
struggle with in society sometimes. If
35:44
there is a group of people regardless of who they are. If there
35:46
are a group of people who
35:48
feel left behind who feel
35:50
disconnected as
35:52
society you can make the
35:55
mistake of thinking that those people have
35:57
no bearing on the rest of society.
36:00
But time and time again, we've learned that
36:02
those people at some point coalesce.
36:05
And oftentimes the coalescing takes
36:08
place at the behest
36:10
or like, you know, under the
36:12
guidance of somebody who's like wielding
36:14
that pain for good. You
36:16
can go through history and you can see it time and
36:18
time and time and time again. And
36:21
I think that's like a crucial, crucial thing for
36:23
us to think about in society. And
36:25
if you apply that back to the world
36:27
of men, young men who are angry, sometimes
36:30
these young men aren't supporting
36:33
people like Andrew Tate and chasing
36:35
after these internet, you know, influences
36:37
who are misogynistic. They aren't going
36:39
with them because they necessarily
36:41
think they'll make their lives better. They
36:44
relish in the fact that those
36:46
people are actively making women's lives
36:48
or successful men's lives or
36:50
who are making their lives worse. Do
36:53
you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh
36:56
my God, I could speak about this all day because
36:58
I've read a lot about it. By
37:00
the way, for those who don't know, you know, because
37:02
I didn't know when these topics first came up, Incel
37:05
is the name given to a
37:07
group of young men who
37:10
some have called themselves this and it's
37:12
become a group thing. But really the
37:14
full term is involuntarily syllabates. That's
37:17
what Incel really is, right? The
37:20
funny thing is that feminists care a lot about this.
37:22
I know there's this idea that feminists
37:25
completely hate Incels and talk down to
37:27
them, but a lot of feminist theory
37:29
in modern days trying to address this
37:31
need because we don't want these men
37:33
to kill us. So it's like self-interest. There's
37:35
that. Yeah. Josh, you spoke
37:38
about kind of like this very
37:40
primal and primordial urge men have
37:42
to dominate. Just testosterone, you have
37:44
to do something without energy. What
37:47
these feminist scholars talk about a lot is
37:49
the fact that unfortunately men aren't prepared for
37:51
the information age we're in, where it's all
37:53
about intellect. It's not about brute strength. Like
37:55
the men who have made it who are
37:57
at the top of the totem pole. They're
38:00
like the nerds, right? It's the age
38:02
of the nerd. Yeah. Yeah. It's like
38:04
Mark Zuckerberg. It's Jack Dorsey. Like men
38:06
aren't prepared for this new world where
38:09
it's like, we don't care if you
38:11
can lift 200 pounds. We
38:13
do care if you can code and use
38:15
your mind in a very abstract way. Yeah,
38:17
exactly. Cause like a Tom Hardy, Ooh, he
38:20
is very lucky he can act. But
38:26
you know, you know, to that point, Christiana, it's, I
38:28
think it's like a combination of what you
38:31
and Josh are saying, I think on the
38:33
one hand, yes, it's talking about preparing men
38:35
for a world where it isn't all about
38:37
their strength. But I also think we take
38:39
for granted the fact that we are still
38:41
animals. Yeah. So for instance, you look at
38:43
schools and how much they've
38:45
pulled back on physical activity. Oh, cool.
38:47
And I often think to myself, what
38:50
was the value of me as a
38:52
child having lessons in school where the
38:54
lesson was I have to run around
38:56
and chase other kids and catch a
38:58
ball and, and like wrestle other children.
39:01
It seems so stupid and
39:03
yet it's like functionally part of you
39:05
being viewed. You know what I'm saying?
39:07
Exactly. It's like even down to the
39:10
way that we would train a dog,
39:12
right? You want a puppy to be
39:14
around other puppies and to wrestle and
39:16
to learn how to nibble on them
39:18
because a puppy who is bit and
39:20
been bit by other puppies who are
39:22
teething becomes a dog that
39:24
knows how to gently nibble when you
39:26
go to feed it. Yeah. Also,
39:29
I've been like taking notes and stuff. I'm
39:31
such a nerd. But I, so, you know,
39:34
the dad said something. He was just like,
39:36
he just wanted a girlfriend. And, you
39:38
know, the discussion around that is very
39:40
controversial, right? Because he
39:42
was so heartbroken by it and he was just speaking off the
39:45
cuff. Like the feminist woman
39:47
is part of me is just like, no
39:49
man is entitled to a girlfriend, like no
39:51
man is entitled to a wife. But
39:53
it's really interesting if you read
39:55
about like the Tinder studies and
39:57
I'm I'm watching what the statistics.
40:00
are. But it's basically like 10%
40:02
of men match to 80% of
40:04
women. So basically women have a particular type.
40:07
Oh, you're going to get into something. You're
40:09
going to get into a topic that I
40:11
love. No, I love this. Keep going. Even
40:13
when we're talking about sex, when we talk
40:15
about quote unquote, body counts, a huge percentage
40:17
of women sleep with a small percentage
40:19
of men. That's just the reality. A
40:21
lot of men cannot and do not
40:24
get laid. Now we can discuss why
40:26
that is, but we should acknowledge that
40:28
there are implications to that about how
40:30
these men feel about women, about the
40:32
world and about themselves. And
40:34
Trevor, you mentioned earlier about like the arranged
40:36
marriage. And I think very much in like
40:38
an African system. I remember my first visit
40:41
to the village when I was like 13
40:43
years old. And there was one
40:45
of my dad's cousins, he's sadly dead now,
40:47
but he was deaf, but he had a
40:49
wife. And I remember saying to my mum,
40:53
like, remind you in Nigeria, you have to
40:55
understand it was just like, it wasn't like
40:57
this evolved thinking about deafness and disability. It's
41:00
a very ableist culture. And my parents said,
41:02
of course he has a wife, they find
41:04
a woman for him. I was like,
41:06
oh, I wonder how did he date? Because like he
41:09
struggled with language and stuff like that. I'm sure
41:11
if he was in the West, he probably would
41:13
have got the right therapy and maybe been able to
41:15
speak. And like, my mum and dad were like, no, in
41:17
our culture, we believe everyone deserves a wife. And as
41:20
problematic as there is, and we can discuss
41:22
that on a different level, the thing about
41:24
arranged marriages, it meant that like, nobody
41:27
was alone, right? It meant that
41:29
everyone was considered worthy of companionship
41:31
and partnership. But now we have
41:33
this world where women for themselves,
41:35
because they have the right to
41:37
are deciding who is worthy. And
41:39
it's a very small slither of
41:41
people who are seen as worthy
41:44
and the rest of the men
41:46
essentially feel thrown away. I really
41:49
don't know, but the statistics do show that
41:51
like, and I'm a very
41:53
picky woman, like, if my husband dies, that's it.
41:55
I'm not marrying anyone else. I'm done. man
42:00
for me but it's just like a lot of
42:02
men can actually not be
42:04
in relationship with women. We'll
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be right back after this. Apple
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43:31
okay so this is it's
43:34
funny that all three of us have been
43:36
obsessed with this topic but like have focused
43:38
on a specific area of it you know
43:40
on its own whilst overlapping with the other
43:43
ones in the Venn diagram. So
43:46
I've thought about this topic as
43:48
it pertains to globalization specifically so you
43:50
know me I love tech I love
43:52
love love technology and the
43:54
thing I'm constantly thinking about with technology is
43:57
what are the benefits of technology and then what
44:00
of the downsides that we neglect to think
44:02
about when we're thinking about the benefits. So
44:04
I think of this issue as
44:06
a tech slash transport
44:08
slash globalization slash everything issue that we
44:11
haven't considered. I don't know if you've
44:13
ever looked at a chart of
44:16
technology and how much it has evolved
44:18
in the history of humankind. But
44:21
if you if you look at it, from like,
44:23
let's say this point to this point, let's say this is the
44:25
beginning where human being started. And this is
44:27
where we are today, right? So
44:29
this is 2024. And this is like, whatever
44:31
100,000 years ago, almost
44:33
all technology is here. I'm
44:36
talking like cars, phones,
44:39
you know, trains, you know, blah, blah,
44:41
blah, blah, but then human beings started
44:43
here, right. And what
44:45
I think about when I look at this at this
44:47
gap is I go, the one
44:50
thing we have to acknowledge about technology is
44:52
that it is able to evolve faster than
44:55
we as humans actually can. Now
44:57
extrapolate that Christiana to what you were saying about
44:59
men and women. We do
45:01
know the downside, as you said, the downside of
45:03
living in a society where we give women to
45:06
men, is that while it may
45:08
be great for the men in that they
45:10
don't have to like look for women, many
45:12
women were in abusive relationships, many women were
45:14
trapped many women were prisoners. And so in
45:16
a way, we were putting the burden of,
45:18
you know, men's frustration on women. But the
45:20
thing we, I think we've taken for
45:22
granted that we never considered to your point with, you know,
45:24
80% of the women dating 10% of the men,
45:28
we never considered how,
45:31
like the limitations of choice, sort
45:34
of made everything work out
45:36
for people. But I think
45:38
what we've just taken for granted right now is these
45:41
technologies have funneled people in
45:43
unnatural ways. So
45:45
to your point, on an app, and
45:47
I know this from personal experience, I've been on a
45:49
dating app, where I am in
45:51
New York City, that's where I am. And I
45:53
tell the app, I'm in New York City, no
45:55
joke, the app will be like, look
45:58
at this lady in Thailand.
46:02
Now as Trevor, I would have never considered this lady
46:04
in Thailand. I didn't even think about dating somebody in
46:06
Thailand, but it's like, hey, what about this lady in
46:08
Thailand? And then I'm
46:11
like, I mean, maybe she looks like
46:13
a lovely lady and it's like, link.
46:15
But now, do you get what I'm
46:18
saying? It's created like a weird, it's
46:20
an artificial connection that has like robbed
46:22
society of its ability to balance itself
46:24
out. People sit online all
46:27
day and see people that they think they
46:29
can date when in fact they cannot, but
46:31
that affects their ability to choose people who
46:33
they actually can date. And so you
46:35
live in a perpetual cycle of, I should be, I could
46:37
be, I would be, and so I'm not. Also,
46:40
can I just say, the men are doing the
46:42
same thing, by the way. I know
46:44
plenty of women who are like, I'm struggling to
46:46
meet men because they see me and I'm a
46:49
normal person. I don't have a face full of
46:51
Botox and filler, which is completely fine. I'll probably
46:53
get there myself one day, but they're like, these
46:55
men see me and I'm not good enough. You
46:59
know, so we're all living in a world where
47:01
we're strangely not good enough for each other because
47:03
we've been exposed to a few that
47:06
nobody can actually get. Yeah, like
47:09
I think to what Christian said, I do
47:11
think just because I have
47:13
had experiences with friends and like you've
47:15
even mentioned Trevor, I'm like on the
47:17
internet in a very particular way and
47:19
have been since I was a teenager.
47:22
So I've made friends that I still
47:24
have never met in person. And
47:27
I've watched the change in some people that
47:29
were maybe gonna go down that route and
47:31
then veered off of it because they made
47:34
a connection with someone. So
47:36
it's not lost on me everything that Christian
47:38
is saying because I think it is right
47:41
and it is representative of a good portion
47:43
of these people, right? So as far as
47:45
the entitlement, I do think that
47:47
there are two things that, and these,
47:49
look, I will not be
47:52
offended if you need to cut this because
47:54
I would be heartbroken if somebody mistook my
47:56
words right now. But I
47:58
think in a way where if you... cannot find
48:00
and this actually applies to both men and
48:02
women so maybe I'm covered. But if you
48:04
cannot find a romantic partner in your life,
48:06
it is seen as a fault and a
48:08
failing on you and there's something wrong with
48:11
you whereas the most important relationships you'll ever
48:13
have in your life are relationship
48:15
with your parents, relationship with a romantic partner and
48:17
the relationship with your friends. And
48:20
I think that we need to start looking
48:22
at all these three relationships as things that
48:24
are not directly in a person's control at
48:26
all times because if you saw an orphan,
48:29
you wouldn't be like, you must suck because
48:31
you don't have parents. What
48:34
vibes were you putting out as a baby to make
48:36
two people leave? Wow. You know
48:38
what I mean? In earnest, yes, there
48:40
are a lot of guys that are exactly what
48:42
you two are talking about where it's like they
48:45
are the dude that doesn't work out but has
48:47
all of the comments ready on women's bodies and
48:49
stuff. And then there are people
48:51
that I promise you whether it's something
48:54
on the mental side, something
48:56
on the social anxiety side, something even
48:58
in the opportunity side of things, have
49:00
not been able to make those connections
49:02
that I think do need
49:04
a bit more of a compassionate mindset
49:08
in that let's
49:10
really figure out the story of why this
49:12
person has not
49:15
found anyone but I think that the
49:17
not having found it yet being a
49:19
strike against you only hurts
49:21
the confidence, only increases the anxiety
49:23
and only ostracizes a person more
49:27
from doing that thing. Josh, I'm
49:29
glad you say that because I think
49:32
about you a lot because you were one
49:34
of the first people that
49:37
made me have compassion
49:39
for incels. In a way, I
49:41
would be humanizing them. Not
49:44
because you are an incel. Until
49:47
I met you, Josh. I didn't
49:49
understand incels. You could have gone down there.
49:51
No, no, no. I think, Josh, what
49:53
you did is a thing that I
49:56
can do in my self-righteousness aside of
49:58
myself that is not good. that
50:00
when I disagree with someone's moral position,
50:02
I actually dehumanize them and
50:05
I treat them like an author and I dismiss
50:07
them. And you are
50:09
one of the first people that was able
50:11
to discuss in-sale culture in a really nuanced
50:13
way and talk about like the profound sense
50:16
of like male isolation, you helped me understand
50:18
that. And I appreciate you for it, especially
50:20
now I'm raising a boy because
50:23
I think like my son is similar to my
50:25
husband is similar to my father. I think naturally
50:27
he's kind of like a loner, he wants to
50:30
be by himself, so we have to always pull
50:32
him in to being with us and being with
50:34
friends. And I think that
50:37
a lot of people think the
50:39
salve to in-sale culture is these
50:41
men perhaps having girlfriends and being
50:43
entitled to, I actually think these
50:46
are men that lack community and
50:48
we are very okay with men not
50:50
having community. So
50:52
I think a lot of these men actually
50:55
need a community of other men that's
50:57
not online, they're just gonna radicalize
50:59
them. They actually need friends because
51:01
I don't think your joy and
51:03
fulfillment in life should hinge on whether
51:06
you have a romantic partner or not.
51:08
And I think it's actually so sad that
51:10
so many men do think that
51:12
this is where their true value can
51:14
be found because they have so
51:16
much to offer beyond that. So I do
51:18
actually have compassion for them. And
51:20
I do think, I agree with you that when
51:23
we see a man who is single and chronically
51:25
single, society puts a strike
51:27
against him in a certain way that
51:29
I think those men absorb that pain.
51:32
And my sadness is that women,
51:34
we bear the brunt of that. And as a
51:36
woman, I do feel afraid of
51:38
men because especially since the pandemic where
51:41
a lot of men were socially distancing
51:43
all alone, they were by themselves for
51:45
over a year, no one came over.
51:47
You know what I mean? They were
51:49
just by themselves. And then
51:51
one of the big questions is how
51:54
much does society,
51:56
you know, to Josh, what you were saying about like
51:58
the baby, how much does... society bear
52:00
the blame. And I
52:02
wouldn't dare to blame the people who were
52:05
attacked in what happened in Australia. I would
52:07
never say that and please don't misconstrue it
52:09
that way. But one of the more interesting things
52:11
that we've noticed in the last few
52:13
months was the parents
52:16
of the shooter in the
52:18
US. They were sentenced
52:20
to 10 to 15 years in prison each
52:22
found guilty of manslaughter because
52:25
of their actions surrounding
52:27
their child. And
52:30
that made me wonder, I was like,
52:32
well, what are we saying in society? Are we saying that
52:35
parents are responsible for the actions of their children?
52:37
Or are we saying all people are responsible for
52:39
the actions of the people around them? And
52:42
you know, Josh, I know you've thought about this.
52:44
I know you, you know, I know we constantly
52:47
hope to find solutions. But before we wrap
52:49
up, I just wondered if there
52:51
was like one, one thing you could
52:53
change like magic wand. And
52:56
I mean, other than and I mean, like
52:58
realistic magic wand, not like inventing people who love
53:00
you, which would be magical, will
53:03
be great. That's what we need to invent a dating app
53:05
that just actually connects you to people who like you for
53:07
who you are. What
53:09
would you change Josh? What's one thing you think
53:12
you would change that would have an outsized impact
53:14
in this world that would not
53:16
just benefit men, but as Christiana says benefit women?
53:20
I like as much
53:22
of a maybe non answer after the
53:24
conversation we've had, it might feel is
53:28
a prioritization above anything else, even
53:31
even for your parents as they're
53:33
raising you of community. I think
53:36
that so much of how we
53:38
get raised as people is like, you be
53:40
a good person, you get a good job,
53:42
you mean, whereas like, if I was a
53:44
parent, at least right now, looking
53:46
at the world the way it is, and as chronically
53:48
online as I am, if I had a kid, I'd be
53:50
like, find your people
53:53
above all else, because your people will take
53:55
care of you, your people will let you
53:57
know when you're going off on the wrong
53:59
path. Your people will you I
54:01
mean like you surround a person with nothing
54:03
but good people they almost in a weird
54:06
way They almost can't do too
54:08
much wrong in a sense. I think good.
54:10
Yeah good being the Yes,
54:12
the problem is people are finding the communities who
54:14
do the opposites. Yeah. Yes, exactly.
54:16
I like that actually I
54:19
like that Christiana as
54:21
a as as the mother
54:23
of a potential nuclear weapon I
54:26
can't believe Joe said that to you when you
54:28
were pregnant. I know Joe is a legend One
54:31
day we must get him on the podcast so he can terrify everyone. We
54:33
need to get him on yeah, right I
54:36
think it would create a society
54:38
where we raised our boys to be
54:40
more vulnerable and What
54:42
we welcome their vulnerability where we didn't tell
54:44
their molds. You'd be tough Don't
54:47
cry and all of that stuff Because
54:49
at the core of all of these
54:51
in cells these people that kill and
54:53
even rape and do these really horrible
54:55
things We know it's about power. That's
54:58
what they crave that they crave power and
55:00
I think they they crave power because they're
55:02
scared right and They're
55:04
afraid to say they're scared. So they
55:06
do these very violent and debase things.
55:09
But if we're raising boys Particularly
55:11
in their teenage years and be like, oh,
55:14
it's okay to cry. It's okay
55:16
to say you're sad It's okay to
55:18
say you're depressed It would be better
55:20
for all of us because then that
55:22
man can say hey, I'm scared Rather
55:25
than being ashamed of that fear and
55:27
going out and being violent to prove
55:29
he's super macho I'm a scared person
55:31
that that's what I would probably do.
55:33
Yeah, I I like both of those You
55:38
know as we as we move to to wrap this
55:40
up and I say wrap this up with a with
55:42
a tiny little asterisk I think we
55:44
should try and and and have a series
55:46
of episodes on the podcast Where
55:49
we delve into this one topic because I think at
55:51
the hearts of it honestly, and that's why I come
55:53
back to church. I You
55:55
should never take for granted the value of
55:57
feeling seen just
56:00
feeling like you are seen. And
56:02
there was something magical for me, at least I don't know about for
56:05
you, but for me growing up, there
56:07
was something magical about this church place where you
56:10
just, you were seen, you know, kids went
56:12
to a Sunday school, adults went
56:15
to the main church, Jesus
56:17
was for everyone, people came in nice cars
56:19
and trash cars and, and
56:21
while there are many downsides to, you know, what
56:23
people have used religion for, I
56:25
wish we would, we could find a
56:27
way to continuously create the
56:30
community of church that just helps people be
56:32
seen regardless of where they are in the
56:34
world and in their lives. Oh
56:36
my god, Trevor, you sound like my mom, she
56:38
literally called me like two hours ago,
56:40
like when are you gonna find a church? This
56:45
was really great. And you know,
56:48
I know it's weird to say this
56:51
sometimes, but I, if anybody listens to
56:53
this and feels like they're not seen
56:55
or they're struggling, I
56:58
will tell you as somebody who lived a lot of my
57:00
life alone, you know,
57:02
similar to Josh, that it's
57:05
strangely, how
57:07
can I put it? Although
57:10
you may be alone in many
57:12
moments, you'll be shocked at how many
57:15
people are having the exact same experience that you're having.
57:18
And if you use
57:20
the tools that are at
57:22
your disposal, you'll be shocked at how you
57:24
can connect with those people
57:27
and find the things that make you feel
57:29
less alone. For me, it was
57:31
technology, it was video games, and
57:33
then it was music and DJing,
57:35
and then some of my best friends now
57:37
come from playing soccer, you know,
57:39
just a pickup game, found a few guys in
57:42
a park, kicked a ball
57:44
with them. And now we've traveled the
57:46
world together and we're best friends. You
57:48
know, we've been robbed of that online, I think
57:50
we've been told that the likes and the follows
57:52
are the real things. But
57:55
I think we should never take for granted
57:57
the value of going out doing something.
58:00
and finding the people who want to do that thing with
58:02
you. And I think that makes you feel good. And we
58:04
know the difference. So yeah,
58:07
this was a really good conversation. I hope
58:09
we do more of it and hopefully
58:11
not only in the wake of like a
58:14
tragedy that's happened somewhere in the world. Yeah,
58:16
for sure. This was great. What
58:34
Now with Trevor Noah is produced by
58:36
Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero
58:39
Productions and Fullwell 73. The
58:41
show is executive produced by Trevor
58:43
Noah, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yaman and
58:46
Jody Abigail. Our senior producer is
58:48
Jess Hackle. Marina Henke is our
58:50
producer. Music, mixing and
58:52
mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank
58:54
you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for
58:56
another episode of What Now.
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