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shopify.com/tech, all lowercase. That's

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shopify.com/tech. Hey

0:31

Adam, you remember when I used to get a

0:33

letter like once or twice a week informing me that

0:35

the credit I applied for had been denied because

0:37

my account was frozen? I do

0:39

remember that. My social security number was out

0:41

there and there were at least

0:43

one person was trying like crazy to open new

0:46

accounts using it. And you never did forgive our

0:48

friend Herb for asking you to unfreeze your credit

0:50

for a project he was working on. You know,

0:52

that was bogus on my part Adam, because

0:55

Herb asked me to unfreeze my credit.

0:58

I was the one who forgot it was unfrozen. Which

1:00

brings us to the problem with Snap electronic benefit cards or

1:02

Snap EBTs. That's

1:05

right. They don't offer any of the protections that

1:07

I use to keep my own finances safe.

1:09

And they provide an important lifeline for people too.

1:12

And with that, welcome to What the

1:14

Hack, a true cybercrime podcast. I'm

1:16

Adam Levin. I'm Beau Friedlander. And I'm

1:18

Travis Taylor. Today

1:28

we have two guests on our show,

1:30

Michelle and Joy. Michelle

1:32

Solomon Medayo, she's the Director of Economic

1:34

Justice with the Homeless Persons Representation Project.

1:36

Thank you for inviting me on the show. Very

1:39

excited to be here. And

1:41

Joy is a social justice advocate in Maryland

1:44

who's worked on various subcommittees and task

1:46

forces to help increase access

1:48

to economic justice. Welcome to

1:51

our show. Thank you. Thank

1:53

you for this opportunity to come and speak with the guys. Both

1:56

of you have worked together on issues involving

1:58

economic instability, benefit, and support. its

2:00

programs and what you're here to talk

2:02

about today, the scams and fraud

2:04

that can take place within these programs.

2:06

Yes. I focus on

2:09

because I have experience with

2:11

public benefits, I kind

2:13

of can connect a little bit better and kind

2:16

of advocate for people who have

2:18

also been on public benefits before.

2:21

Snap, temporary cash assistance,

2:24

stuff like that. Michelle, can you give

2:27

us a brief overview of the Snap program? Snap

2:30

or Supplemental Nutrition Assistance

2:33

Program is

2:35

a critical anti-hunger, anti-poverty program in

2:37

this country. It's a federal program

2:40

administered through states and

2:43

it provides a benefit

2:45

for low-income individuals and families to

2:47

be able to purchase food at

2:49

grocery stores, at farmers markets. So

2:52

this is how a lot of

2:54

people in our country are able to afford

2:57

food. It's a supplement, so it

2:59

doesn't provide the full amount of food someone

3:01

would need for a month. It's intended

3:04

to supplement other income or

3:06

for some folks that we work with,

3:08

it is the only benefit that a

3:10

family receives. So for example,

3:12

a one-person household that has

3:14

no other income, the maximum

3:16

Snap benefit is $291. So

3:22

as we know, the cost of food has

3:24

only gone up in recent years and that

3:26

is not going to be able to cover

3:28

the full month. But it is a critical

3:30

benefit that is effective at reducing

3:32

childhood poverty and helping people

3:35

access adequate food in this country.

3:39

So Joy, you have experience receiving Snap

3:41

benefits. What has that been like? Yes.

3:44

There was like a lot of delay with

3:46

like the process to even get assistance. There

3:48

was just so many people trying to get

3:51

help that it was just like everyone

3:53

was having such a hard time accessing

3:57

these different things. study

4:00

that said that living at

4:02

the poverty line creates a level

4:04

of stress that is equivalent of a pulling a

4:06

week's worth of all-nighters. So what

4:09

happens to a family when they're already

4:11

struggling to make ends meet, they're not

4:13

making ends meet, and they have this

4:15

bureaucratic nightmare to get through? I mean

4:18

how difficult is it? It should

4:20

not be as difficult as it is. I

4:22

tell clients all the time who thank us

4:24

for the work that we do that you

4:26

absolutely should not need an attorney to get

4:29

food and cash assistance benefits. You should be

4:31

able to walk in or go

4:33

online and if you're eligible get

4:35

approved. But unfortunately we see all

4:38

sorts of issues with untimely decisions

4:40

on applications. Sometimes you can

4:42

do all the right things and still get

4:44

your case closed out and that's

4:47

where our office comes in. You know of

4:49

course if you're eligible for

4:51

food or cash benefits by definition

4:53

you already have very little to

4:55

no income. So

4:57

Joy we understand you've actually been

5:00

targeted by a SNAP EBT scam.

5:02

What happened? Yes so I received

5:05

SNAP benefits and just

5:07

recently I woke up

5:10

one morning because I usually checked my

5:12

card in the morning before I go

5:14

out to the grocery store and

5:16

I noticed that like 6 a.m. my

5:20

money for the food was just completely gone.

5:23

So I

5:25

actually reached out to a number

5:29

that's on my card and I kind

5:31

of just let them know you know

5:33

I had my benefit is gone. I'm

5:36

not sure what happened and they kind of made

5:38

a report for me. They

5:40

ended up telling me that it was from

5:43

Detroit so it was

5:45

completely out of state and they canceled

5:47

my original card. Now it was nice

5:49

because they did reimburse

5:51

it the next day but the

5:54

issue was that they had

5:56

to send out a new card which that took

5:58

like two weeks so I couldn't even and use the

6:00

benefit. So

6:05

we're here to talk about SNAP scam that's happening

6:08

across the country, is that right? Yes,

6:10

it's actually SNAP and cash

6:13

assistance. Okay, can you tell us a

6:15

little bit about what's happening? Sure,

6:17

I can tell you from the perspective of

6:19

what we've seen in Maryland, but we know it's

6:21

happening all over the country. So starting

6:23

in early 2022, we

6:27

started getting calls at the

6:29

Homeless Persons Representation Project from people

6:32

who were eligible for SNAP

6:34

and cash benefits, who

6:36

knew their deposit was coming on a

6:38

certain day, and then they checked their

6:40

card and there's nothing there. They would

6:42

go to the local department of social

6:44

services to find out what happened, only

6:46

to find out that the department deposited

6:48

the benefit on the card in

6:51

an hour or two after the deposit, it

6:53

was completely wiped out. For

6:58

someone who received SNAP benefits, a

7:01

family with children, let's say,

7:03

is at the grocery store in line

7:06

to purchase all the food that their family would

7:08

need for that week, hands over

7:10

the electronic benefit transfer card or

7:12

EBT card where the SNAP benefits

7:14

are deposited to the cashier,

7:16

and the cashier says, there's nothing

7:19

on here. So

7:21

what we came to find out is there

7:24

are a lot of scams going

7:26

on where a very

7:28

common one is card skimping and

7:31

card cloning. So the

7:33

EBT cards where the SNAP

7:35

benefits are deposited are usually

7:37

they just have the magnetic

7:40

strip on the back. So unlike

7:42

the more advanced technology that credit

7:44

cards have, like a microchip, the

7:47

EBT card just has a magnetic strip,

7:49

which means a person has to actually

7:51

swipe the card at the point of

7:54

purchase machine or at an ATM. All

7:56

you need is the card number, the expiration date, and

7:59

PIN code to withdraw. or transferred the funds on

8:01

the EBT. We've talked about skimmers

8:03

on the show before, but for our listeners who may not

8:05

know, how do they work? So the

8:07

skimming, card skimming scheme that we've

8:10

heard about is where bad

8:12

actors will place a illegal

8:15

skimming device on top of

8:17

a point-of-purchase machine. It's

8:20

almost impossible to detect, even if you know

8:22

what you're looking for. You

8:24

swipe your card at the gas

8:26

station, the corner store, the supermarket,

8:29

and without any

8:32

knowledge, your card number

8:34

has now been compromised if this illegal device is

8:36

on the machine. Sometimes there's hidden

8:38

cameras placed nearby, and so whoever

8:40

is operating these illegal devices now

8:42

can actually see your PIN number

8:44

after you type it in. Usually,

8:47

the way people find out is when they go

8:49

to the grocery store and they find out from

8:52

the register that there's nothing on their

8:54

card and they can't purchase any food

8:56

that much, if it's the benefits for the entire

8:58

month, or if it's cash benefits, a

9:01

person goes to the ATM to make a withdrawal

9:03

to pay their monthly rent, their utility bill, and

9:05

the balance is zero, even though it should be

9:07

the full month deposit. Do

9:10

these cards have transaction alerts on them

9:12

so that when a charge is made,

9:15

a text or

9:17

an email is sent to the holder of the

9:19

card? In Maryland, they did not. Travis,

9:22

how easy is it to get a skimming machine? Skimming

9:25

machines are illegal in a lot of places, but

9:27

unfortunately, they're not hard to get. You

9:29

can just order them online pretty easily

9:32

from some sketchy vendors, some

9:34

places from out of the country, but there's a

9:36

pretty low barrier to entry to getting them. So

9:49

Joy, while waiting for your new card,

9:51

did you have any recourse to or did

9:53

you actually have to wait those two weeks and there was no

9:56

other thing you could do? I did

9:58

go to like food pantries around. There's

10:01

a bunch of them in Baltimore City. They

10:03

have churches that give out food. I mean,

10:05

it's not like complete

10:08

meals, but they give out

10:10

fruits and vegetables and bread,

10:12

something that could work until

10:15

the benefits came back in, and I received

10:17

my card. Do you have a family?

10:19

I do. I have a seven-year-old son.

10:22

It's just me and him. So that's

10:24

also really time-consuming, I imagine, figuring out what

10:27

food banks to go to or pantries to

10:29

get what you need. Yeah,

10:32

and because right now

10:34

I'm not driving around

10:36

the city right now, so I kind of have

10:38

to find the ones that are close by, and

10:41

that's why there's really not that many options either,

10:43

because I got to go to the ones that's

10:45

the closest. Food pantries, while

10:47

they are very important, are

10:49

not an adequate solution to

10:51

benefit thefts, because just

10:53

like Joy mentioned, you have to

10:55

have physical access to go in

10:58

person, the ability to travel,

11:00

to physically pick up a box

11:02

to bring it back. You have

11:05

to have the time to do it. If

11:07

you're working or you are picking up your

11:09

children at the school bus or any other

11:11

reason and you can't be there at the

11:13

specific day and specific time when they're giving

11:15

out the food, or maybe you're there and

11:18

you're waiting in line, and finally when you

11:20

get to the front, you're told there's

11:22

nothing left. Also, we've heard from

11:24

folks that for cultural or

11:27

religious or dietary reasons, sometimes

11:29

the one-size-fits-all kind of food

11:32

box is not appropriate for

11:34

their families' needs. The other

11:36

thing about food banks and food

11:38

pantries is that they are run

11:40

by non-governmental agencies for the most

11:43

part. They're run by churches and

11:45

by other outreach groups,

11:48

and as such, that

11:51

is not what I would call a

11:53

social safety net at all. I

12:00

did not. There is an option that

12:03

you can go to a Department

12:05

of Social Services building and get a vault

12:07

card. I was actually going to do that,

12:09

but it came right before I was going

12:12

to try to go that way. And, Michelle,

12:14

could you explain kind of what the vault card

12:16

is and how you can get it? Yeah,

12:19

the vault card is just a, I think,

12:22

internal department term for it's like an emergency

12:24

card. It's taking too long

12:26

to get in the mail. You can pick

12:28

up a physical card in person at the

12:30

local department of social services. It's

12:33

supposed to be that anyone who experiences theft can

12:35

pick up a card if they want to any

12:37

time. But what we

12:39

have seen is inconsistent applications of that policy,

12:41

and some people are turned away and told

12:43

they need to wait at least two weeks.

12:46

And if the card has not arrived in the mail

12:48

by the end of two weeks, then they can get the card.

12:52

How hard is it to actually get into the SNAP program

12:54

itself and get those benefits? So, because

12:57

SNAP benefits are so critical, by definition, I

12:59

think you have to have 130% of

13:03

the federal poverty line or less

13:05

in total household income to qualify.

13:08

So, because families

13:10

and individuals applying have so

13:12

little resources and income

13:14

when they're applying, there are

13:16

federal timeliness standards. The

13:19

department administering the benefits has to make

13:21

a decision within 30 days

13:24

on most applications. That is what it

13:26

is supposed to take. Sometimes we do

13:29

see decisions taking 60 days

13:31

or more, which is, of course, unlawful.

13:34

But it can take usually

13:37

a month or more just to get

13:39

approved if you're eligible. And

13:41

usually if you're eligible, you get benefits

13:44

dating as of the date you apply. But

13:47

this is crazy. I mean, 30 days is a

13:49

long time. Seven days is a long time when

13:52

you have people living from paycheck

13:54

to paycheck. How long did it take

13:56

you to get SNAP benefits when you first applied? I

13:58

want to say... about almost 30

14:01

days, not a complete 30 days, probably

14:03

a little bit less than that time.

14:06

And during those 30 days, can you describe

14:08

for me what the stress level was like

14:10

waiting? I mean, it seemed was it low?

14:12

Were you in need at the time? What

14:14

was going on? At the time,

14:17

I was homeless. So it

14:19

was a little bit complicated, you know,

14:21

and in shelters, they

14:24

don't, you know, you kind of just eat

14:26

what they have, and they don't

14:29

really fit a lot of dietary needs as

14:32

well. They kind of just give you whatever they

14:34

have. There was food being provided, but I didn't,

14:37

you know, me and my son, we didn't always

14:39

eat. So it was it was kind of stressful,

14:41

but you know, we made it work. The

14:45

situation that makes snap cards and

14:48

other kinds of cash benefits essential

14:50

to some people is that there's

14:52

inequities in our society where

14:55

it's just not that easy to make enough

14:57

money to live in big cities. And

15:00

it's further exacerbated by something like

15:02

snap theft. So when

15:05

you were waiting for the new card, you know, your

15:07

day to day life resumed, tell

15:09

us about the reimbursement process,

15:11

Joy, like, what did you do?

15:13

How did you get your money back? Was it easy?

15:15

Was it hard? The card has

15:18

like the 800 number, you call them. And

15:21

then I kind of just explained to them

15:23

that I woke up and the benefits

15:25

were gone by like 6am. And

15:28

they ended up telling me, you

15:30

know, the money was taken in Detroit,

15:32

like I said before, they did end

15:34

up reimbursing me like the next day.

15:37

But because I didn't have like the new

15:40

card information, the card wasn't activated. So it

15:42

wasn't like I could use it virtually, or

15:45

anything. So it was kind of like just a

15:47

waiting game until the new card came in. It

15:49

seems like a big part of the problem here

15:51

is how the snap benefits are being administered. Is

15:53

there a better way to do it? It

15:56

would be nice if they could put a little more

15:58

security on the cards. like just how with

16:01

bank cards, we can lock them now, you

16:03

know, from our phones and stuff. And they

16:05

didn't give me any notification

16:08

that the money was taken until

16:10

I went into the app.

16:13

There is an app for you to

16:15

be able to keep track of your benefits,

16:17

like when they come in, but it

16:19

didn't like give me any notification that

16:21

a transaction was made

16:24

until I actually physically went into the

16:26

app. I just think they

16:28

should up on the security a little bit

16:30

more, maybe making it so we can lock

16:32

our cards, so it would be harder for

16:35

them to pull, but I don't

16:37

know how that process would work. So,

16:41

when someone's been a victim of this type

16:43

of scam, what's the Maryland

16:45

Department of Human Services doing to

16:48

address the entire issue of reimbursement?

16:51

So it's great to hear that, you

16:54

know, Joy received reimbursement a day after

16:56

the benefits for compromise and stolen, even

16:58

though she was not able to spend

17:00

it due to the inaccess

17:03

to a new card. The fact

17:05

that Maryland is now replacing stolen

17:07

benefits is huge, and it's the

17:09

result of a big collaboration in

17:11

writing a law that our governor

17:13

signed. So

17:15

back when, you know, benefit theft

17:17

was on the rise in Maryland,

17:19

at that time, the Maryland Department

17:22

of Human Services was not replacing

17:24

stolen benefits. It was awful.

17:26

The harm that was caused, you

17:28

know, lack of food and food

17:30

insecurity just affects everything. So

17:33

if you don't have enough food, you

17:35

can't eat. If you can't eat, how do you

17:37

show up to work? How do you show up

17:39

to school and learn? At the

17:41

time, victims of benefit theft had nowhere

17:43

to turn. They would go to the

17:46

department with saying, well, we aren't reimbursing.

17:48

So people would have to wait the

17:50

entire month without food, without

17:52

cash, and just wait until their next

17:54

month's deposit and hope that those benefits

17:56

were not compromised. And we did work

17:59

with some clients. clients who had, despite

18:01

getting a new EBT card, experienced

18:03

theft multiple times, in part

18:06

due to never finding out which

18:08

machines are compromised, people that we

18:10

worked with began experiencing evictions. You

18:12

don't have income, you can't pay

18:14

your rent, so you get an

18:16

eviction notice. Or you can't pay

18:18

your utility bills, you get an

18:20

energy shutoff notice. Even

18:22

if one day you can catch up

18:24

and pay back some of the back

18:26

bills that are piling up, you

18:29

now have late fees. It's impossible

18:31

to fully recover when you've experienced

18:33

this kind of theft. And

18:36

it's also just an

18:39

immeasurable impact on

18:41

your health. There are

18:43

short-term and long-term detrimental

18:45

consequences to food insecurity.

18:48

There's also the mental health component,

18:50

the anxiety and stress of not knowing where

18:52

your next meal will come from. I

18:55

worked with countless parents who skipped meals

18:57

just so they could make sure that

18:59

their kids ate food that day. The

19:02

harm was just immeasurable. And

19:04

so advocates collaborated

19:07

with people with lived experience of

19:10

benefit theft and lawmakers in Maryland

19:12

last year around

19:14

drafting a law that

19:17

would require Maryland to reimburse

19:19

benefits anytime they're stolen. So

19:22

this is food and cash benefits. It

19:24

requires them to be replaced very

19:26

shortly after the report is made.

19:29

It's a great law. And

19:32

we know it's working. To date, over

19:34

$20 million of stolen

19:36

food and cash benefits have been

19:39

replaced over 31,000 households

19:41

in Maryland. Maryland is

19:43

a small state compared to the rest

19:45

of the country. So it's very curious

19:48

to know the extent of this problem

19:50

on a national level. So Travis,

19:54

you are a person who likes facts

19:56

and figures. And I am guessing you

19:58

already have a few at your fingers.

20:00

fingertips. Snap Rod.

20:03

This sounds expensive, not just

20:05

expensive in

20:07

some weird, you know, conservative

20:10

political sense, but actually

20:12

fiscally expensive for the

20:14

government. Snap Rod eats

20:16

up 20% of the benefits that are

20:18

given. So

20:21

a fifth of the benefits, at

20:23

some point, we know in the

20:25

history of fraud, when it starts

20:27

to cost institutions enough money, there's

20:30

a tipping point, and then

20:32

there's solutions put in place. And I think

20:34

that what I'm hearing is we're starting to

20:36

hit that tipping point. And I think Joy's

20:39

idea is the right one. Have Snap cards

20:41

work the same way as a bank card.

20:43

You can turn a bank card off. You

20:45

can notify the bank when you think that

20:47

a card has been compromised.

20:50

You can get transaction alerts. If those things

20:52

are in place, it's a heck of a

20:54

lot harder to steal the funds. No, and

20:56

there should be an automatic requirement for,

20:58

at the very least, transaction alerts, because

21:00

if you don't know, you

21:03

can't do anything about it. Well,

21:05

and I also like Joy's specific idea of

21:07

being able to lock the card, because you

21:09

can lock the card, you keep it locked

21:11

until you get to the store. Problem

21:14

solved. Maryland did

21:16

introduce the card lock feature in

21:18

July, but we are still

21:20

continuing to see Snap

21:22

and cash theft continue on the rise

21:25

in Maryland. We don't have chipped cards.

21:27

I think that's a big one. I

21:29

don't think any state has the chip.

21:31

I know it won't reduce theft completely,

21:33

but certainly probably would reduce

21:36

a lot of it. You know, I'll point to

21:39

something, you know, the locks are new. And

21:41

when seatbelts were new, and you had to

21:43

use them because that was the law, and

21:45

it wasn't just optional, it took

21:48

a while for the accident figures to

21:50

reflect that change. And I think it's

21:52

probably the same with this. The fact

21:54

that people can lock the cards may

21:56

not be as widely known as

21:58

it should be, because it costs

22:00

money again to make something widely known.

22:02

You have to pay a comms professional

22:05

to get the word out, to do

22:07

a campaign. And so if

22:09

your goal is to get as many dollars

22:11

into the right hands as possible, you don't

22:13

wanna spend a ton of money on

22:15

outreach to make sure people know how to use

22:17

their cards. But if you're losing a fifth of

22:20

your budget every year on fraud, you have to

22:22

count the beans and figure out what's more cost

22:24

effective. And so I do think that that's part

22:27

of what we're looking at here. The bottom line with all of

22:29

this is when the government

22:31

enacts a program, state,

22:34

federal, you need to think

22:36

about all of the security measures that should

22:39

be in place to make

22:41

sure that people aren't stealing stuff.

22:43

And the fact that we have so much

22:46

fraud and so many scams going on, it's

22:49

one of those things where why wouldn't they

22:52

do it? Why wouldn't

22:54

they? Why shouldn't they? Why

22:56

haven't they done it? Anyone

22:59

who's experienced a fraudulent charge on their

23:01

credit card knows that almost

23:03

instantly when you call the card company

23:05

and report it without question,

23:08

you get apologies and that money back

23:10

so that the amount of harm you

23:12

suffer as a result is minimized, we

23:15

don't have those same protections on

23:18

the EBT card. One thing I think people overlook

23:20

a lot of the time too is that food

23:22

assistance actually does work as an economic stimulus. There

23:25

was another study that came out and said for every dollar

23:27

you're providing in that it generates a $1.30 for the economy.

23:31

So it's in our best interest to make

23:34

sure that these programs are accessible and also

23:36

secure. This is

23:38

a racial justice issue as well

23:40

because we know that in this

23:42

country, black and Latino households disproportionately

23:45

experience food insecurity due to systemic

23:47

barriers and inequalities. So

23:49

we really would like to see Federal

23:52

Response. I Think it's both a

23:54

federal and state response to the

23:56

rise of benefit theft. Whenever

24:12

I go to an A T M

24:14

or anywhere that requires my pin code

24:16

in addition to a credit card or

24:18

a debit cards, I do something that

24:20

probably looks very strange. I cover the

24:22

pad with one hand and I take

24:24

my other hand and I put it

24:26

down like this. He can't tell which

24:28

finger I'm using and then I go

24:30

like vest and I use different fingers

24:32

to hit the four buttons because I

24:34

do not want it recorded. Six aware

24:36

of the act. In a lot of

24:38

these gaming machines rely on a camera,

24:40

so I am actually. Behaving as as someone's

24:43

looking over my shoulder at all times. And

24:45

the reason I'm doing that is because studies

24:47

have shown to there might be somebody looking.

24:50

That's why does the default mechanism

24:52

should be one that helps protect.

24:55

The. User as opposed to the

24:57

user having to do something affirmatively.

25:00

In. Order to protect themselves. I think

25:02

the government surely needs to do better

25:05

here, but since we know this is

25:07

a threat that a lot of people

25:09

face, A lot of

25:11

people need to learn what is out

25:14

there to protect them and best practices

25:16

for keeping us safe as possible in

25:18

a fairly robust threatened vermin. First.

25:28

Of all we'd like to thank you

25:31

Joy for sharing your story was just

25:33

and the more the people talk about

25:35

this the more that the stigma around

25:38

benefit programs and being scammed the more

25:40

change that we can say And Michelle

25:42

thank you for the work that that

25:44

you're doing and hopefully we can see

25:47

more states make similar changes to prevent

25:49

these benefits camps. Thank you for having

25:51

me. This is clearly an issue I

25:53

cared deeply about and really appreciate this

25:55

platform the talk about raise public awareness.

25:57

Thank you for so kissing on the

25:59

sunniest. Well if people want to learn more

26:01

about what you do or where to find

26:04

you, where is the best place for them

26:06

to go? To. Check out the

26:08

website Homeless Persons Representation Project. it's

26:10

W W W.h P R P

26:12

Law.o R G as I'm Also,

26:15

if you feel compelled to action

26:17

from listening to this podcast, it

26:19

be great if you could call

26:21

your elected officials state and federal.

26:24

Let. Them know that Snaps and

26:27

Ten S are important antipoverty,

26:29

anti hunger programs that we

26:31

must continue funding and we

26:33

must reimburse benefits when they're

26:35

stolen. At the Federal level,

26:38

we must continue federal replacement. A snap

26:40

benefits or needs to be more sutter.

26:42

All support for states to be able

26:44

to strengthen the security. Of the cards, So.

26:47

This is you know, lawmakers,

26:49

Want. To respond to constituents and as

26:52

you call them and let them know this

26:54

is something that's important to you. I.

26:56

Think you'll be ploughed received. Take.

26:59

Him. And

27:07

else time for the. Tinfoil swarm are paranoid

27:09

take or to keep you safe. On

27:11

and off was. Sources reading

27:13

the news that Reddit made a deal to

27:15

supply Ghouls A I with their user content.

27:18

Read you. read about that, Travis. On

27:21

Reddit. Votel or

27:23

listeners. What? Reddit For those who have

27:26

been living under a bottle caps somewhere

27:28

on the bottom of Moonlight, tell him

27:30

what it is Sir So far read

27:32

it is a social media site where

27:34

people share content and then voted up

27:37

or down and comment and it can

27:39

be pretty intense, especially The Sovereign. It's

27:41

were there for custom politics, advice or

27:43

local news. It launched the Earth or

27:46

Facebook so there's almost two decades worth

27:48

of content at to split Sir Ai

27:50

have already. scrape the web and wikipedia

27:52

for content and social media networks

27:54

june so you know hoarding your

27:56

data is nothing new unfortunately just

27:58

like and matter Right, but

28:01

at this point Mark Zuckerberg has appeared

28:03

before Congress, like, multiple times. Meta's

28:06

data collection policies are pretty well known. Reddit

28:08

has a lot of smaller, more private communities

28:11

for help with mental health, substance abuse, you

28:13

name it. People share extremely intimate stories and

28:15

had no idea that it was going to

28:17

get vacuumed up when they posted. Yeah,

28:19

so now they're data grab. Well, there are

28:21

members only subreddit's direct messages. Are those going

28:23

to be part of this? We just don't

28:26

know how it'll be utilized or how or

28:28

when it'll be publicly viewable. And

28:30

the larger point here is the same one we've been

28:32

making all along. If it's

28:34

free, you're the product. Yeah,

28:37

well, actually it's more like if it's

28:39

free, you're an unwitting employee. Or

28:43

just because a company says in its privacy

28:45

policy that it won't share your data, they

28:47

can still change that policy. And

28:50

that's our 10 for us one. What

28:58

the heck with Adam Levin is a production of LoudTree Media.

29:00

You can find us online at adamlevin.com and

29:02

on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.