0:00

C I A as on a

0:03

mission Why? Because fifty four percent

0:05

of black Americans don't have enough

0:07

savings to retire So and collaboration

0:09

with big name artist like Wyclef

0:11

Jean T I A released paper

0:14

right New music inspiring a new

0:16

financial future with one hundred percent

0:18

of streaming sales going to a

0:20

nonprofit that teaches students how to

0:22

invest stream paper right now and

0:24

help close the gap. Did

0:29

you know Adam? that there are.

0:32

Scammers. out there who could have

0:34

one hundred percent get over on

0:37

us. I have no doubt there

0:39

are scammers out there that have

0:41

already gotten or Varanasi previous in

0:43

their name is all Travis best

0:45

at minimum, and you skimmed be

0:47

into putting up with you all

0:49

these years. Oh please, we both

0:51

scammed Adam all these years. I'll

0:53

second that emotion. And with that

0:55

welcome to what the heck, a

0:57

True Cybercrime podcast. I

1:02

Madam Eleven. I'm both read, manner.

1:04

And I'm Tribes taylor. Marjorie

1:11

Welcome, where are you coming to his

1:13

from. I'm in Chevy Chase.

1:15

Marilyn. right? Outside of Washington,

1:17

D C. And what

1:19

do you do there are you

1:21

do work? Are you retired? I.

1:24

Practice law with the Federal government for

1:26

forty two years. And I

1:28

retired in January of. When.

1:31

T A cheap. So I

1:33

am now. Formerly retired. Now

1:35

Cook Cook! Congratulations. Well.

1:37

Thank you You made it. And

1:40

I can add that retirement

1:42

is a privilege beyond expectation.

1:45

So so you're enjoying it so far.

1:47

Absolutely. I am wondering what

1:49

kind of law did you practice when you're when

1:52

you are working for the government? Either

1:54

this a mile wide and an eight inch

1:56

deep style. I did a little bit of

1:58

everything. I didn't find that. The Equal

2:01

Employment Opportunity which is

2:03

discrimination. I did conflicts

2:05

of interest switches. Financial Interests and

2:07

people who have to file

2:09

our financial disclosure forms. I

2:11

have procurement a lot of

2:13

procurements. Cinderella, State. So

2:16

was all around was a one

2:18

specific department said you were in

2:20

or does you can move through

2:22

the gun. Know a

2:24

while I was always associated with the It office in.

2:26

The General Counsel and the agency

2:28

that work that, yes, And

2:31

it was through the General Counsel's office.

2:33

That. I moved around throughout the

2:35

General Counsel's office. So.

2:39

Marjorie Looking at your resume, it seems like

2:41

you be a pretty tough person to target.

2:45

I certainly have the education

2:47

and they. Experience to have

2:49

A boy did a scam and

2:52

Silas coded. Does

3:00

strikes me that you're a lawyer.

3:03

The. Lawyers I know, And

3:05

now you're one of them. are very

3:07

detailed people. It's why usually I can't

3:09

stand the writing because they have to

3:12

include everything in every sentence and we

3:14

read slowly to. But the lawyer mind

3:16

is super detailed and it fires on

3:18

all kinds of cylinders all the time.

3:22

I'm curious. How did

3:24

the scammer initially contact you? So.

3:29

I was still an online research.

3:32

For. A

3:34

democratic group that was looking at

3:36

school board basis throughout the country.

3:39

I'd was late I am I had

3:41

for express donated as it's not unusual

3:43

and I recite south I was anxious

3:45

to get to the work I needed

3:47

to do get it done and can

3:49

get it in and other side need

3:51

my screen and was see a. lot

3:56

of blinking lights a lot of color

3:58

and it said your computer is and

4:00

cheese by hackers and

4:02

there's no way you can get around it.

4:05

Call this number for assistance. And

4:09

I didn't have time for this last thing.

4:11

So I took my monitor and I closed

4:13

it in the vain effort that this would

4:15

go away. I

4:17

should have rebooted. So

4:24

that's what happened. I called the

4:26

number and I got connected

4:28

with a supposedly

4:31

a Microsoft engineer and

4:33

I explained what had happened. And I said, can

4:35

you just clear my monitor so I can get

4:37

back to work? And

4:40

he said, well, let's see. And he goes

4:43

off and he pretends to be looking at

4:45

something in the background and he comes back

4:47

and he says, yes, you've been cheese. These

4:51

are people from China and from Russia.

4:53

And then he came in for the kill. So

5:00

Marjorie, at this moment, what are you feeling? I've

5:03

never been kidnapped, but I

5:06

would expect that the feeling would be

5:08

much the same. It was as though

5:10

I had a bag over my head

5:13

and I was captured.

5:18

I didn't realize it, of course. In

5:22

retrospect, though, that's exactly what happened

5:24

is that I was completely

5:26

captive and

5:29

they had me in the palm of their

5:31

hands immediately. Despite

5:34

all my education experience, alarm

5:37

systems, mother's advice,

5:40

I was. Where

5:46

were you? Were you online? Were you, were you

5:48

surfing the web? First

5:50

of all, I was physically located in

5:54

a house I have in the Poconos. So

5:56

I'm in pristine

5:59

condition. I'm. In

6:01

the staycation hello. I'm

6:03

on a computer and I'm surfing the

6:05

web. Or. Information

6:08

about. School. Boards in

6:10

Kansas and so. Do.

6:12

You know what site you are on when

6:14

all the bells and lights missiles went off.

6:17

I was using google. And I can tell

6:19

you that. And more than that, I

6:21

don't know. I don't recall. That

6:23

happens to a lot of us. were online, were

6:25

doing whatever we're doing, we're using the search engine

6:27

we usually use and then all the sudden bang

6:29

we have no idea where we are is. It

6:31

was a good bit of Bonfire of the Vanities

6:33

where you take the wrong exit. New I got

6:35

a O L. Ser

6:41

talking with a guy your computers

6:43

seized those the screen blocking everything

6:45

on your computer it says call

6:47

this number and needed. The

6:49

person on the other one claims to be a

6:51

Microsoft engineer. What? Did you sound like was

6:53

he being reassuring? Where is he trying to drive

6:56

into a panic study? some which he was in

6:58

the U S. I. Thought he was

7:00

in the United States. He.

7:02

Did not have an accent.

7:06

And he was fairly. Cool.

7:09

An email. He wasn't using

7:11

explosives language in any way.

7:13

But. He just came back and he suggested

7:16

been hacked. He said. Worried

7:18

about your bank accounts? And.

7:21

I said when that my bank account and

7:23

say said well as they say. Your

7:25

computer. Have they taken?

7:27

Information. Off your computer,

7:30

About. Your bank accounts Or your bank

7:32

account safe. We think

7:34

that. Your financial can

7:37

snipe be in jeopardy. And

7:41

he was doing it sort of by way of

7:43

a service. I do this every day, ma'am and

7:45

you don't. In my experience, they may have access

7:47

to bank. Right

7:50

right and is so. It

7:52

was his job very. Snowy. So

7:54

so. We. are and

7:56

con man territory mean this is the

7:58

thing that strikes me murder with all

8:00

of these kinds of scams. They

8:03

are the modern day equivalent of the

8:05

three-card Monty guy or you know

8:07

do you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge guy? They're

8:10

smooth operators. Marjorie,

8:13

did he ask you if your rank might be

8:15

in jeopardy or did he say we think

8:18

your bank account is in jeopardy? He

8:21

asked me whether I knew whether

8:23

my bank account was safe.

8:26

Okay, I get it. So what did you say when he

8:29

asked you that? I said well I don't know and he

8:31

said

8:33

well I

8:35

can help you if you want. I said what

8:37

can you do? And he said if

8:39

you want to give me the name of your bank

8:42

I can connect you to the bank's

8:45

fraud inspector and

8:47

he can help you ascertain whether

8:51

or not your bank account is safe. I'm

8:53

right there with you at this point Marjorie. I'm

8:55

like okay let's do that. And now you're on

8:57

hold while he's doing that? Yes,

9:00

I'm on hold and he has

9:02

put me on a special line

9:04

that's secure because

9:07

I'm calling him on my cell

9:09

phone, you know my iPhone

9:11

and he's telling me that I'm

9:14

going to connect you through a special line

9:17

because your phone may be hacked

9:19

as well. Okay, so he's enveloped

9:21

you in paranoia. You have been

9:23

taken hostage. I

9:25

have absolutely. And it's

9:27

all psychological. He got in

9:30

there. Didn't take 60 seconds.

9:32

Wow. And I felt like a

9:34

house of cards. Well

9:37

no, no, no, I don't like what you

9:39

just said. You didn't fall like a house

9:41

of cards. You walked into the

9:44

next moment the way any of us would and

9:46

that's the truth. 100% he lured you into

9:49

a trap. So now he's got

9:51

you on a secure line waiting to talk to

9:53

your bank correct? Quote unquote secure. Yeah, yeah because

9:55

the whole thing's a scam. Right. Yes,

9:58

I'm calling him. calling

10:00

the bank

10:02

fraud investigator

10:04

on his line. And

10:07

are you hearing a ring tone when he's doing

10:09

that? Or any music in

10:11

the background? Anything that would make you

10:13

feel like it was institution to institution?

10:16

No. No. So

10:19

what do you hear? Are you just waiting

10:21

in dead silence? As

10:24

I recall, yes. And

10:28

then someone picks up the phone

10:31

and identifies himself as

10:34

the fraud investigator for my

10:36

bank. Okay. And obviously they

10:38

now have the name of your bank. So that's an easy

10:40

one. Because that's how he could

10:42

connect me with this bank fraud manager because I

10:45

gave him the name of my bank. Did he

10:47

give you his name or any credentials or did he

10:49

just say he was the fraud investigator? He

10:52

gave me his name, Sam Billings.

10:55

Sam Billings. You were in the Billings

10:57

department. She

10:59

was with some professionals who had a script and

11:02

all they were doing was plugging in the bank

11:04

name. They had their names they used and they

11:06

were so you know you could have been he

11:08

could have been right. Sam Billings

11:10

quote unquote could have been right next to the

11:12

dude you called from quote unquote Microsoft and you

11:16

know winking and saying okay you got

11:18

it. What does he say? Give

11:22

me your name and let me check on your account. Okay.

11:26

And did he ask for your account number? No.

11:29

Okay. Great. So

11:32

what happened when he did check your accounts?

11:35

He came back and he said there

11:37

have been an incredible

11:39

number of expenses against

11:43

your account from

11:46

overseas from China or Russia.

11:49

And he outlined a couple of

11:52

things that were just absurd. I

11:54

mean so absurd that they were

11:57

so absurd. absurd

12:00

not to believe. Pornography,

12:05

expensive ski clothes, liquor.

12:11

I ain't sure. If you're going to

12:13

steal my account, go for

12:15

it. The bank would know

12:17

that you're not a regular consumer

12:19

of pornography and liquor

12:21

in China. He said to me,

12:25

the bank notified you about this. Oh,

12:27

interesting. I said, no, they didn't.

12:29

I haven't gotten an email from the bank. He

12:32

said, oh yes, and we got

12:35

a response that said these expenditures

12:37

were authorized. I said, well,

12:39

that's impossible because

12:41

it never happened. Okay. They're gaslighting you

12:43

at this point. This is like that scene in

12:45

the movie when they're like, and there's someone in

12:47

the attic and they're after the family jewels, literally.

12:49

Yeah. Adam, if I had

12:51

a bank calling me, the likelihood that someone

12:54

could say to me, we reached out to

12:56

you, especially if they said via email about

12:58

this issue, you've been informed.

13:01

I would have to believe they were right

13:03

because I'd never look at my email. I

13:05

have something like 10,000 unanswered emails. So- Or

13:07

you would believe someone has stolen your identity

13:09

and they've gotten into your email account. I

13:11

would think it was real. If I were

13:13

in your shoes, I'd be in your shoes.

13:16

I asked him how it could be that the

13:19

bank would send me an email that I never

13:21

received. He said they'd

13:23

spoofed your account. Aha. Yeah.

13:26

Travis, did you scam Marjorie?

13:29

No comment. No, he did not.

13:31

He did not. But this

13:33

is like the level of someone who

13:35

knows what's, they really were good. They

13:38

know what they're doing, these guys. You're

13:40

totally reacting the way any human being,

13:42

regardless of experience, education,

13:45

worldliness, you're

13:47

right on path with

13:49

what people would do. Lauren. Mike.

13:56

So we host a podcast for Wired called

13:59

Gadget Lab. We do. We

14:01

do. Yes, that is correct. Tell the good people

14:03

some more about it. Well, I think the good people

14:06

should definitely tune in every week because they get to

14:08

hear me roasting you. I know. All

14:10

right. No, really, what Gadget

14:12

Lab is, is Mike and I tackling

14:14

the biggest questions in the world of

14:16

technology. I like to think of it

14:18

as the best of wired journalism, but

14:21

in audio form. We cover the big

14:23

news of the week in tech land,

14:25

but we also offer our expert analyses

14:27

and opinions on all things consumer tech,

14:29

whether that's mobile apps, hardware, startups, cryptocurrency.

14:32

Mike, what's been a recent highlight episode

14:34

for you? We did a deep dive on

14:36

the group behind the massive Okta hack. We

14:38

also had a great conversation about Web 3

14:40

and the Metaverse. What stands out for

14:43

you? Never Metaverse you didn't like. I

14:46

really enjoyed our recent podcast about Peloton.

14:49

And recently, the legendary tech journalist Kara Swisher

14:51

joined us to talk all about Elon Musk

14:53

and the future of Twitter. So

14:56

I guess we should tell people how they can listen to our pod.

14:58

We release a new episode of Gadget Lab

15:00

every week and you can listen and follow

15:02

us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you

15:04

pod. So

15:09

Bo and Adam, you guys know I'm a bit

15:11

of a privacy geek, if you will. Oh, yeah.

15:14

Yeah, you are. Yeah, totally. I

15:16

really just don't like the idea that just about

15:18

anyone can find you online, can find out where

15:20

you live or your email address, your phone number

15:22

or anything. I just think that entire idea is

15:24

super creepy. There's so much of my data already

15:27

out there. But is there something that you can

15:29

do? Yeah, actually, you can use Delete

15:31

Me. Delete Me is a service that

15:33

pretty much does the heavy lifting for you where they

15:35

go to all the data brokers that they have on

15:37

file and just pull your data

15:39

and delete it on a regular basis. I use it. I

15:42

like it. And they make it quick,

15:44

easy and safe to remove your personal data online.

15:46

We have with these data brokers, they can accumulate

15:48

huge amounts of your personally identifiable information. And if

15:51

all that information gets into the hands of a

15:53

bad actor, that opens you up to a lot

15:55

of risk. And If you act now,

15:57

you can get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you

15:59

go. To join eliteme.com/w T

16:02

H News Promo code Debbie

16:04

Th The only way to

16:06

get twenty percent off as

16:08

you go to join elitemean.com/wth

16:10

and enter Promo code Wth

16:13

a check out that's join

16:15

to Leave Me Dot com/Wth

16:17

Promo code Wth which stands

16:19

for what the and we

16:22

thank you for supporting delete

16:24

me and what that. So

16:33

what happened next? Ah,

16:35

we talked about my bank accounts.

16:38

At. A checking account at in had a

16:40

savings account. And He

16:42

said. Essentially, if you

16:45

want me to help you. You.

16:47

Have to follow by directions. Tell

16:51

I said okay, what is it that you think

16:53

I should do. Good. Advice:

16:55

He would give me and he said

16:58

my assets were in jeopardy. Said the

17:00

best course of action is to do.

17:03

Because. We don't know. Although

17:06

he strongly suspect that these

17:08

scammers have my name. My.

17:10

Address my birthday, And.

17:12

My social security number. So they have.

17:15

To. Four. Or. Five. Most.

17:18

Important identifying. Information

17:21

about May plus you. They have your down

17:23

information at least that's what is telling you

17:25

because they're doing. They. Have access to

17:27

my account information and have made.

17:30

Unauthorized iced expenses on my

17:32

account. Therefore, The logical

17:35

thing to do is transfer your money.

17:38

Into a safe place in figure

17:40

out. Who. Is scamming you?

17:43

And. Like to job is to. Social

17:45

Security number. I'm

17:48

hearing. Sort. Of the

17:50

fact seat. Behind.

17:53

a life lock commercial and others were like

17:55

we have we know that people are afraid

17:58

of this this this this this this this

18:00

and this, and they know the social

18:02

security numbers out there, they know they're

18:04

findable, they know identity theft is on

18:06

the rise, and we're just going to

18:08

write a script that takes those things

18:10

into account and scare the bejesus out

18:12

of somebody. It sounds like what's going on here.

18:15

Well yeah, if you're a federal employee, your

18:17

social security number was leaked in the OPM

18:19

hack, which I believe was in 2016. Actually,

18:22

it was 2015. Ah, how

18:24

time flies. Okay, Captain Justice. You

18:30

did actually probably get some mail about that. Not

18:32

to mention the fact that if you were alive

18:34

the past few years, which you are, with

18:37

the Equifax hack, your information is

18:39

out there. Social security number, name,

18:42

address, cell phone contact information, email

18:45

address. What did he

18:47

suggest you do? I'm curious here. Well,

18:49

what he suggested was very reasonable.

18:51

I should move my assets from

18:53

my bank into

18:56

cryptocurrency, which

18:58

was safe and secure.

19:01

And as soon as this mess,

19:03

if you will, was cleaned up, we'll

19:06

move the assets back from

19:08

crypto into your bank, however

19:10

you wanted to allocate them. That's

19:13

a very complicated process to change your

19:15

assets into crypto. I'm curious,

19:17

had you ever had any experience with

19:19

cryptocurrency previous to this? I

19:22

have a son who works in cryptocurrency. It

19:25

wasn't it as though it was a strike

19:28

out of the blue. And you

19:30

knew how it worked. You knew that it was secure. You knew

19:32

it was traceable. Well,

19:34

I knew it was secure.

19:37

I had some confidence in

19:39

the median. It wasn't

19:42

unknown to me. I had had, I

19:45

should say, a number of lectures about cryptocurrency.

19:47

And so it didn't scare me to

19:50

say, OK, let's transfer assets into

19:52

crypto. And have

19:54

you invested in cryptocurrency before? No,

19:56

I had not. Although I had

19:58

just had a. conversation

20:00

with my son who is involved in

20:02

crypto. He said, you know, it can

20:04

be very dangerous, but if you have

20:06

some money that you can afford to

20:08

lose, I'd be willing to help you

20:11

invest in crypto if you're interested. So

20:13

we had had that conversation. How

20:16

did you transfer the money? He

20:19

said to me, we'll work to transfer

20:21

your assets into crypto. At

20:24

the same time, MicroSalt will work

20:26

on your computer to clean it

20:28

up the viruses. I

20:30

asked him how he thought I should proceed.

20:33

He said, go into your

20:36

local bank and

20:38

draw a wire transfer and

20:42

I will email you wire

20:44

transfer instructions and

20:46

you can transfer this money.

20:49

I will set up an account

20:51

for you at Coinbase and we'll transfer

20:53

your assets into Coinbase. I

20:58

go to the bank because I'm in

21:00

my little house in the Poconos. The

21:03

nearby bank is in a little town

21:05

called Holly, Pennsylvania. I

21:08

go to Holly and I execute

21:10

a wire. I

21:13

sit down across the table

21:15

from this bank manager and

21:17

I'm transferring $26,000 from my savings account

21:24

to this bank in New

21:26

York called Signature Bank. Signature is

21:28

going to transfer it to another

21:31

bank in Las Vegas and Las Vegas

21:33

is going to transfer it to Coinbase.

21:36

But all that you can see on

21:38

the instructions are that it's going

21:40

from me to Signature Bank in New York.

21:42

Which is a very well-known bank which unfortunately

21:46

collapsed. The woman looked at

21:48

me and said, oh what are you going to do with the

21:50

money? And I said I'm going to

21:52

put it in cryptocurrency and

21:54

she said, yeah a lot of people

21:56

are doing that. I said,

21:59

okay. And so

22:01

she executed the wire transfer exactly

22:03

as I asked her to. And

22:05

the interesting thing is, if I can put a

22:08

little color around this, is Holly

22:10

is a very impoverished little town.

22:13

If you look at its median income, it's

22:15

about $32,000 a year. And

22:20

this woman didn't know me. She had

22:23

never seen me. She

22:25

knew that I was a bank customer,

22:28

but she had no experience with

22:30

me whatsoever. And here I

22:32

am transferring $26,000 in a

22:36

town where most people don't see $26,000 in

22:38

cash in a year and

22:44

doesn't say anything except, what

22:47

are you going to do with some money? Oh,

22:50

crypto. A lot of people use crypto

22:52

these days. That's a

22:54

very curious statement on her

22:56

part. Not only that, but

22:59

one more thing is the bank closed

23:01

shortly thereafter for lack

23:03

of business. So

23:06

it isn't as though this was a busy

23:08

little bank, and I was just

23:10

one of many customers queued up at the

23:12

door. They had no

23:14

business. They had no banking business.

23:18

And yet I didn't attract any more attention.

23:21

So are you feeling at this point

23:23

that it just doesn't feel right? That,

23:26

you know, where are the safeguards? This is a bank? No,

23:30

not at this point. I was just happy

23:32

that the

23:34

transfer was executed, as

23:36

I asked. And

23:39

I didn't get any pushback from her. The

23:43

scammers had told me, of course,

23:47

two things before this transaction. Number

23:49

one is I can't talk to

23:51

anybody about what I'm doing because

23:53

I don't know who's. You

23:55

can trust. That's right. Who

23:58

has perpetrated the virus? that's infected

24:00

my computer and who has made

24:03

these withdrawals on my account. And

24:06

anybody that you talk to

24:08

could be a suspect. So

24:11

don't talk to anybody. And

24:13

when you go to the bank and you make this transfer,

24:16

if they question you, just say you're putting

24:18

it into crypto and push back on any

24:21

other inquiries they might make. Did

24:23

they direct you to this specific bank?

24:26

No, no, no, no, no. They just rehearsed me

24:28

though, when you go into the bank, what are

24:30

you going to say? What are you

24:32

going to do? What will you say if they

24:34

say? And how

24:36

will you deal with this situation? So,

24:40

you know, listen, I'm an attorney, right? I can put

24:42

one foot in front of the other. You don't have

24:44

to tell me how to make a wire transfer. Right.

24:47

So that part was easy. And

24:50

I did it absolutely

24:53

without a second thought. After

24:57

you made the transfer, did

25:00

you call him back? Did

25:02

you know who to call? Oh,

25:05

yes. He wasn't letting me far out

25:07

of his reach. Call

25:10

me as soon as you make the transfer and

25:13

I will let you know as soon as

25:15

it's received a signature bank and

25:18

I'll send you the password

25:20

for the account at

25:22

Coinbase. I mean, he

25:24

had me on a pretty tight leash. Right.

25:28

Yeah, nothing was being left to chance. Signature

25:37

bank, when it was in existence, actually

25:39

did get into trouble with the SEC

25:41

for facilitating money laundering, specifically

25:44

through crypto. So they

25:46

definitely had a reputation with that kind of practice.

25:50

I actually at the time had never heard

25:52

of Signature Bank. I have since learned that,

25:55

yeah, that it was closed

25:58

down for good reason. So

26:00

what happened when you wired the 26,000? What happened next? Well

26:07

that was going on. At some

26:09

point he transferred me back to

26:11

Microsoft because I have a

26:13

very infected computer. And

26:15

we got to clean up the

26:17

computer. So I've

26:19

been told I can't use my computer

26:21

until it's clean. What

26:23

he did is he remoted

26:27

into my computer. And

26:30

he put one of

26:32

those windows on... So

26:35

he could see your stuff. So he

26:38

would call and he would say, what

26:40

is the code that comes up on

26:44

the app? If you will. And

26:46

then that allowed him into my computer

26:49

and he could see my computer. And

26:55

that went on

26:57

from 9am to 5pm

27:00

every day for a month. What

27:03

was happening for that month? Like what

27:05

was going on? I'm

27:07

working on your computer march. This

27:09

is very complicated. And leave

27:11

your phone open for the entire time in case

27:14

I need to get back to you. And he

27:16

would call me like every two hours. So

27:18

my phone was open and my computer

27:20

was open. And he was

27:22

just going anywhere he wanted in your computer so far as

27:24

you know. That's right.

27:27

So far as I know. And to tell you the

27:29

truth, I don't think he

27:31

went anywhere. I think he just had

27:33

me on the string. You know so that he could

27:35

keep you from doing

27:37

an investigation or figure anything out, correct?

27:39

That's right. Or using my

27:42

computer. It gave the

27:44

whole aura of this virus and

27:46

being attacked. And you know this

27:48

serious situation that he had to

27:50

resolve. Before that

27:52

happens though, I was convinced to

27:54

liquidate my stock portfolio and my

27:57

annuity. The 26,000 was just a big deal.

28:00

beginning. It's just the opening bid. Yes, I

28:02

lost another 650,000 before it was over. When

28:21

did you realize that you had been

28:23

defrauded? So

28:25

all my assets have been transferred. My

28:28

computers declared clean. I'm

28:31

supposed to get back to this damn

28:34

building to talk

28:36

to him about transferring my assets

28:39

back from crypto into

28:41

my various accounts. It was supposed to call

28:43

me, it was the Friday of Memorial Day

28:46

weekend 2021 and he didn't call so I

28:48

called him and the line had been disconnected.

28:57

And I was so, the

29:01

cap came off my head and

29:03

I called the bank to see if

29:06

they had an employee by the name of

29:08

Samuel Billings and of course they did not.

29:13

It was immediately clear to me that

29:15

I had been scammed. And

29:18

so what did you do at that point? Did you let

29:20

other people know or? I

29:23

called the bank immediately and

29:26

I told them the whole story and they

29:28

asked me to go to the local bank

29:31

and make a statement to the bank

29:33

manager which I did too. And

29:36

the bank manager took

29:38

down the whole story and then she looked

29:40

at me and she leaned over her

29:43

desk and she said, if

29:45

you think this bank is going to pay you for your

29:47

losses, you're dead wrong. Whoa,

29:50

now there's bedside manner. And

29:54

you know I kind of had been in

29:56

the zone where somebody

29:58

does unauthorized purchases

30:00

on your credit card and

30:03

because they're unauthorized the

30:05

bank makes good on them and suddenly when

30:07

she said that I realized nobody's

30:10

gonna pay me for these losses I've lost

30:12

this and I

30:14

became rather all

30:45

of this has gone down now you realize that

30:47

you have been scammed out of over

30:49

six hundred and sixty thousand dollars worth of

30:51

money and what

30:55

happened next did you then reach

30:57

out to your family did you call a lawyer

30:59

I mean I know you are a lawyer but

31:01

did you call another lawyer what

31:03

happened I

31:06

reached out to family and

31:08

we all work through our own emotional

31:11

response to this my son

31:14

who is in crypto had a

31:16

friend in London who was a

31:18

crypto investigator so I

31:20

was able to give him enough information

31:22

about the funds that he was able

31:25

to pass that on to his friend

31:27

in London who offered to look

31:29

out for transfer from

31:31

Coinbase to anyplace else

31:34

I had a friend who son

31:37

was with the FBI and

31:40

through that connection I filed an

31:42

FBI report I filed a

31:44

report also with Maryland State Police

31:47

but I also got an FBI

31:49

investigator assigned to the case which

31:52

I was very anxious

31:54

to do because my son

31:56

learned from this investigator in

31:58

London that my crypto had

32:00

been moved from Coinbase to

32:03

Binance in Cayman Islands,

32:05

which is another crypto platform, I'm

32:08

sure you know. So if

32:11

I could get the FBI to move

32:14

quickly, maybe they could stop the funds

32:16

at Binance and recover

32:18

something. But of course,

32:20

nothing happens that fast. My son did

32:22

try calling Binance to convince that these

32:25

funds were for legal favor fraudulent

32:28

things. But Binance wouldn't talk

32:30

to him and said, if you want somebody to

32:32

talk to us, have the FBI call us. Did you

32:34

do that? I did. I tried

32:37

to convince this agent that he needed to

32:39

move fast. But you know, I've

32:42

worked in government, I know it has to

32:44

go up the chain, it has

32:46

to be approved. And by the time he

32:48

could move on it, I'm sure the funds

32:50

were long since gone. But

32:53

equally important is Binance is outside the

32:55

reach of the United States government. You

32:58

know, it isn't subject to any service

33:00

of process by the US government.

33:03

And so they coordinate

33:06

with the FBI only if they

33:08

happen to fall out of bed

33:10

on that day the right way. Otherwise, they

33:12

just, you know, blow off the FBI. Yeah,

33:16

now we're in the hole by well over $600,000.

33:18

You now know that you've been the victim of

33:20

a scam, you've

33:25

been in touch with law enforcement, you are

33:27

in that slow dance that

33:29

is pretty unbearable when you're trying to

33:32

get something like this settled and

33:34

figured out where do things stand

33:36

now. I

33:39

finally found an attorney. Everybody,

33:42

they seem to be general agreement that

33:44

I had a cause of action. But

33:47

there was not general agreement that anybody

33:49

wanted to take the case. And

33:51

I finally found someone who wasn't scared of

33:53

going up against one of the big banks.

33:57

A lot of attorneys make their money through

34:00

bank work and didn't want

34:02

to antagonize that relationship. So

34:05

this fellow was a

34:07

real warrior and said, let's do it. And

34:10

at first he didn't think I had a cause of action,

34:13

but he looked at it and he finally

34:15

agreed with me until we filed a suit.

34:17

We first went to the bank with a

34:19

demand letter and they said, go pound sand.

34:22

And so then we filed a suit and

34:25

they filed a motion to dismiss,

34:28

which is, I'm sure, you know, essentially

34:30

a motion that says there's no cause

34:32

of action here. Judge, you should just

34:34

dismiss the case. And

34:36

after 10 months, the judge came back

34:39

and said, there's enough in

34:41

the pleadings here to justify going forward.

34:45

And at that point, the bank decided that they

34:47

would talk to me. And so

34:49

we sat down and started negotiating a

34:52

resolution. And what does that look like? It

34:54

settled, took a while. With

34:57

the settlement and we realized you can't give

34:59

us the details of it with it. Did

35:01

you feel like you were fairly

35:04

treated? Probably

35:09

not. I realized that I had

35:11

done as best as I could do given

35:14

my resources. I could have turned

35:16

away from their negotiated

35:19

settlement and continued the litigation,

35:21

but there are no guarantees. Correct. And,

35:23

um, and I had already lost a

35:26

lot of money to get to this

35:28

point in the negotiation can already cost

35:30

me, uh, $85,000 in attorney fees.

35:35

So I had to take a hard look in the mirror

35:38

and decide, you know, you've done the best you

35:40

can given the circumstances and,

35:43

and pick up your marbles and go

35:45

forward. And

35:48

you mentioned this process took 10 months total. Uh,

35:51

during that time, were you in financial difficulty? No.

35:54

Thankfully. Thankfully. I

35:56

have enough of a pension from the government.

36:00

Social Security that I'm able to pay

36:02

my mortgage and put meals on the

36:04

table. And

36:09

if you're listening and you're thinking like, I couldn't

36:11

do that. No, Marjorie was fortunate that she had

36:13

the means to hire an attorney and, and, and

36:15

navigate the situation. A lot of people wouldn't be

36:18

able to. You

36:20

know, at the end of the day, based

36:22

on everything you've been through and what

36:25

you've experienced, what advice would

36:27

you give our listeners, especially,

36:29

uh, senior citizens

36:31

as to how to avoid

36:33

these kinds of scams? Lesson

36:36

number one, it's the first thing that help

36:38

desk always tells you to do. And

36:40

it's really reboot your

36:43

computer and don't listen to

36:45

anybody who tells you, you can't talk

36:47

to your family. Your family

36:49

is your backstone. There's nobody

36:51

in your family who is causing

36:54

a virus on your computer or healing

36:56

from your bank account. Your family are your

36:59

best friends and you should go directly to

37:01

your family. And then my

37:05

dear sweet mother always said, if in

37:07

doubt, don't. If

37:10

in doubt, don't. That is going to be our

37:12

anthem for this week. If

37:14

in doubt, don't. Don't.

37:17

Have you put any safeguards in place to prevent

37:19

this type of thing from happening again in your

37:21

life? There is a custom called

37:24

a trusted contact that

37:27

some institutions are putting into

37:29

place where you'd identify somebody

37:31

who they will contact in

37:33

case there's something that comes up that gives

37:36

them concern. And

37:38

I have that on one investment

37:40

that I've made. Going forward. Another

37:42

tool that I want to suggest to you

37:44

is hang up the next

37:46

time somebody says they have something this

37:50

important to deal with, hang up.

37:52

If it's really that important, they're going to call you

37:54

back. And, um, if we

37:56

call you hang up, if

37:58

Adam calls you hang up, definitely. In

38:01

the same situation, I do this for a

38:03

living, but I would say, that's cool. I'm

38:06

going to call you right back. And then

38:08

I would go on Google and I would

38:10

go past the sponsored listings that come up

38:12

first to the correct listing with the right

38:14

URL. And then I would call and

38:16

see what was going on. Another

38:19

thing that I really cannot stress enough.

38:22

There's two more things. Adam's going to say the

38:24

second thing without any prompting from me. The

38:27

first one is, you should set up

38:29

transaction alerts on every single financial account you

38:31

have. And I'll tell you how tight it should be.

38:34

On my banking accounts and on my financial

38:37

relationship accounts, I

38:40

am notified if one cent,

38:43

one penny moves. I

38:46

get a transaction alert for that. That's

38:48

something that can really help you in this

38:51

situation because then you'll know when they say

38:53

somebody's been making charges in this and that

38:55

and pornography or whatever. You can say, no,

38:59

they haven't because I have

39:01

transaction alerts. Is that through your bank? Usually

39:03

you can set it up on either the app or the

39:06

website for the bank. And you can do it for your

39:08

credit card as well. Some

39:10

people go notify me if the transaction is over

39:12

100. Go to one penny,

39:15

one penny. Because a lot

39:17

of times there'll be these teeny little transactions

39:20

that will escape notification if they're

39:22

under 100. So that's 0.1. And

39:24

2. Freeze your credit. Yes,

39:27

I have done that. Now but,

39:29

Adam's going to tell you a little story about freezing

39:32

your credit. Oh. Embarrassing

39:35

me again. Well, no shame zone. Now tell the

39:37

story. What's by the time? No,

39:40

I just recently, in

39:42

the past year, froze my

39:44

credit, which was a little embarrassing

39:46

since I spent about four decades telling

39:48

people to freeze their credit. It's

39:51

one of those things where we keep thinking about, I have

39:53

to do this. But we

39:55

don't necessarily do it. But it's a good thing

39:57

you did it. Did you freeze your

39:59

credit? credit after this incident

40:02

or before the incident? I

40:05

think my credit's been frozen for a long time. What

40:08

was it after the OPM breach that may have

40:10

prompted you to do it? Maybe.

40:12

Yeah. I can't remember, but

40:14

and you know, Adam, the freezing

40:17

of credit in this situation isn't going to

40:19

solve the problem. These scammers

40:22

had a great script. They had a very

40:25

good understanding of consumer behavior

40:27

and they used all of it

40:30

in order to do, you know,

40:33

an urgency scam basically. And

40:35

it's no shock that it worked. And there's

40:37

no shame in the fact that you suffered

40:39

this intrusion on your life. I'm really glad

40:42

to hear that you got through it. Yes.

40:44

Thank you. As we say, it is

40:46

a shame that it happened, but there's no

40:49

shame to you that it happened because

40:51

you responded exactly like every

40:54

human being we know would have

40:57

responded. Yeah. And

41:07

now it's time for a tinfoil swan. Our

41:11

paradigm take away to keep you safe

41:13

on and offline. All right. So after

41:15

hearing Marjorie's story, I think we should

41:17

discuss how to have the talk with,

41:19

uh, not just relatives, but everybody in

41:21

our lives. Scaring is

41:23

caring. Indeed. I

41:26

mean the reality right now is that anyone in

41:28

your family or your social circle can be a

41:30

target. A young, old, rich, or just flat broke.

41:32

Anyone you know can be in a scammer's crosshairs.

41:34

Right. Cool. So what's the lightning round look

41:36

like? Adam, you go. Never give away your

41:39

information, especially your payment

41:41

information to someone claiming to be calling on

41:43

behalf of your bank or your credit card

41:45

issuer. Okay. I'm going to go with do

41:47

you know what open source intelligence is? Of

41:50

course, you don't. Maybe you do. All right.

41:52

Here's the deal. People look stuff up about

41:54

you all the time. You might even do

41:56

it yourself to other people, but scammers do

41:58

it as well. So if you go

42:00

online, do a little inventory of what's out there

42:03

about you, know what it is, and shut down

42:05

the stuff that you can. Obviously,

42:07

that means don't over post on social

42:09

media. One thing that applies to

42:12

the scam that targeted Marjorie is that tech

42:14

support doesn't and won't contact you. As

42:16

someone who spent hours trying to get through

42:18

to live tech support agents, I can assure

42:20

you that they're busy enough with incoming requests.

42:23

They're not gonna actively seek out people having

42:25

technical problems. But most importantly, take your time.

42:28

And understand when scammers contact you,

42:30

they're usually trying to get you to panic.

42:32

Now in Marjorie's case, they were

42:34

trying to do two things at the same time. Calm

42:38

her down, but increase

42:40

her sense of paranoia and fear.

42:43

At the end of the day, you just gotta go slow.

42:47

And I think at every point,

42:50

in whatever it is that you're experiencing, think,

42:52

is this right? Is this the

42:54

way it should go? What happens if I

42:56

hang up? And that's our tinfoil swan.

43:09

What the Heck with Adam Levin is a production of Loud

43:12

Dream Media. You can find us online

43:14

at adamlevin.com and on Instagram, Twitter, and

43:16

Facebook at Adam K. Levin. Thank you.

43:27

Loud Dream.