0:00

You know, today's guest just sold something

0:03

to Brad Pitt. And I

0:05

wonder, like, why on earth didn't he think

0:07

that was a spoof? Well, in this case,

0:09

Brad Pitt was the real deal. But our

0:11

guest today did find himself in a real

0:13

conundrum. He was suspicious of Brad Pitt until

0:16

Bono confirmed it, though. All right, stay tuned,

0:18

because we're going to learn something about staying

0:20

safe if you have a small business. And

0:22

with that, welcome to What the Hack, a

0:24

true cybercrime podcast. I'm Adam Levin.

0:27

I'm Beau Friedlander. And I'm Travis Taylor. Tim

0:38

Bern, welcome to

0:40

our show. Thank

0:45

you. We'd like to get to

0:47

know a little bit about you. So first of all, where are

0:49

you coming to us from? We're

0:51

in, I have a company based in

0:53

Oakville, Connecticut. And we

0:56

build vintage industrial style furniture, pretty

0:58

much one of our kind pieces.

1:01

We do some manufacturing, but

1:04

it's all unique furniture. And

1:07

Oakville, if our listeners haven't heard of that,

1:09

where is that? Is that near Hartford? Where

1:11

is that in Connecticut? Close to Brass City,

1:13

which is Waterbury. Did

1:15

you say Bra City? I

1:17

did not. It said Brass. I

1:20

like, I heard Brisier, but that's

1:22

more me than you. That wouldn't surprise me.

1:24

It's better than Hat City, which we're also

1:27

next to. I'm also coming to you

1:29

from Connecticut. And you know, if you don't know

1:31

Tim Bern's work, his work

1:33

has been seen in stores like La

1:35

Labo, All Saints, Diesel, Ralph Lauren, Barney's,

1:37

the list goes on and on. He's

1:40

worked with many top name designers. He helped, his

1:42

lighting is in the Gramercy Park Hotel. And his

1:44

private sales, I don't know if we can talk

1:47

about them. Can I mention some of those? You

1:49

can mention them, yeah. I

1:51

believe you've sold things to a countryman

1:53

of yours named Bono and Malcolm Gladwell,

1:55

who's not a countryman of yours. John

1:57

Stewart, Meg Ryan, Bruce Springsteen, Jimmy Kimmel.

2:00

It's a really impressive list of people. The

2:03

work also seems very familiar. When I

2:05

first saw it, I thought, oh, I

2:07

know that work. Are you the first

2:09

person to do this design? Yeah,

2:12

pretty much. I started doing it in the 90s.

2:15

We were doing it before it was cool, and

2:17

then another company began to see what we were

2:19

doing. So we've been copied

2:22

by a lot of big chain, big

2:24

box copy, restoration, hardware, Clayton Barro,

2:26

companies like that. We were

2:29

doing one-of-a-kind pieces. We

2:32

never copied ourselves. We wanted

2:34

to always remain original because

2:37

the furniture we make is

2:40

made using the original pieces

2:42

that we redesigned to make it into

2:45

functional furniture, all based on industrial

2:47

items. Other companies latched onto

2:49

it and began to make their version

2:51

of it in multiples. We

2:54

actually named it Vintage Industrial. We didn't

2:56

even know what to call it. Then

2:58

it became used in the design world

3:00

as Vintage Industrial. What

3:02

is Vintage Industrial? We

3:04

see it as using

3:08

authentic industrial pieces that have been

3:10

redesigned into functional furniture. A lot

3:12

of the items we use are

3:14

cast iron, which are, you

3:18

know, it just has really great design

3:20

in it. It was made at a

3:22

time when the whole

3:24

process was, you had

3:26

a designer, you had the draftsman

3:29

who designed the layout for the

3:31

pattern maker who made the patterns,

3:33

who went to the foundry. From

3:36

the foundry, it went to the machine

3:38

shop, and then from the machine shop,

3:40

it went into assembly, where it was

3:42

turned into a machine. Now, at the

3:44

time, labor was cheap and

3:46

metal was expensive. So the

3:48

design incorporated a lot of

3:50

detail to use

3:53

the steel in The

3:55

best way possible. So They weren't going to

3:58

waste any of it. In.

4:00

That process really great design. can

4:02

add a bacon or a lot

4:04

of that will another nice items.

4:07

We onto that and began to

4:09

see. How you know I'm

4:11

a cabinet maker so I'll I could see it.

4:14

Incorporated. Into building furniture and

4:16

wix. So I guess what we did.

4:18

And I say we because you know which

4:20

means it's a little company so I like

4:23

doing and my guys in the construction of

4:25

it. So it by little

4:27

he means thirty thousand square feet are

4:29

looking the hotter bear hate downtown

4:31

area. So is vintage industrial like

4:33

steampunk or is that something? And

4:35

now now now now now. Steampunk

4:39

Atlantic putting lipstick on to pay

4:41

Bryce it's of in Athens over

4:43

Steampunk. I did it to me

4:46

as where they add items and

4:48

make it look better which said

4:50

no use whatsoever in the peace

4:52

where we actually. Would.

4:54

Strip the pace down and just leave the

4:57

skeleton of what it was. if it has

4:59

gears and wheels on it and they will

5:01

work. I we build these tables dell frank

5:04

up inside because got an order yesterday for

5:06

one and you can you just and you

5:08

can we just a table up and and

5:10

we put nice would on a winter's it's

5:13

while another slabs of. Cherry.

5:15

Ours are being go you know, really

5:17

nice basis so it's it. It works.

5:19

Whereas you know steampunk, they would put

5:21

cares on to make it up like

5:24

it's artistic which I don't think it

5:26

is. Sir

5:29

Tim, judging by your accent,

5:31

doesn't sound like you're originally

5:33

from Of Bill Connecticut. So.

5:37

Where. Are you from. Have to have

5:39

to tell the truth. You do, especially even if it

5:41

gets you arrested. Get a. Here's

5:47

my story. I'm Irish. I'm from

5:49

Dublin and emigrated here. and Nineteen

5:52

Eighty seven? Unemployment.

5:54

In Ireland at the time as approaching

5:56

twenty percent. So.

5:58

I tell of a comment. He didn't.

6:00

The land of plenty. Men: I

6:02

a sister live in and and in Connecticut

6:05

to I stayed with. A.

6:07

Revived on a Tuesday or that a Job on

6:09

a Wednesday. Very

6:12

monkeys. are you know one of us? Are

6:14

you still an Irishman? A dual citizenship and

6:16

I can leave any time and hot that

6:18

have a place today. We're

6:21

not always your on Iran, I'm in that our own.

6:25

Not only did I did some around

6:27

the world I'm Irish passport had just

6:29

have to enter exit United States have

6:31

a Us passport by a dual citizenship

6:33

so. I

6:42

have a memory I think I'll be able to to

6:44

have. Your. Were being at some

6:46

of the all sleep markets on Sixth Avenue

6:48

back and the day you were fixture there,

6:50

right? As in the

6:52

nineties? Yes, and we used to

6:55

were. The

6:57

I do You know I'm a cabinetmaker

6:59

and I can I get very bored

7:01

or come for gold, gold coast and

7:03

slices. Of didn't know

7:05

what they want. Anyway,

7:08

you know I pay was I was

7:11

always very interested of bread. Sure, I've

7:13

always loved it and. So.

7:17

I said a bind. Mid century modern and selling.

7:19

and on Twenty Fifth Street between Fifty Six at

7:21

a flea market in the eighties. And.

7:24

A lot of fun! Really enjoyed it

7:26

and got to know a lot of

7:28

dealers that's know a lot about furniture

7:30

and and ah. But

7:32

I begin to see industrial pieces of

7:35

showing up there in the original state

7:37

and. You

7:39

know, I was looking at it saying well I can actually

7:41

do a lot with. A piece.

7:43

And so I began to

7:45

source. Places.

7:47

To buy it and did a lot of industrial

7:50

out since lot of about whereas that are being

7:52

pulled down and then. A set

7:54

of the over the place and picking up

7:56

things and I couldn't tell you how many

7:58

times people have said. Why

8:01

are you buying that? They just thought it was

8:03

a piece of garbage. I pulled that thing out

8:06

of a field in upstate New

8:09

York, it was behind a factory,

8:11

and we pulled this, it

8:14

was like a cart out of a muddy field.

8:16

And we pulled it off, put it on my

8:18

truck, and we made it into a table

8:21

and sold it to a hedge fund in South Africa,

8:23

for an astronomical amount of money. Sounds like a good

8:25

gig if you can get it. We

8:27

do a lot of restoration of original pieces,

8:29

you don't have to do a lot to,

8:32

you know. But industrial pieces

8:35

are, they're all unique because

8:37

they come out

8:39

of factories, industrial settings, and

8:42

have been abused and beaten.

8:45

Sometimes it requires a lot of work to get

8:47

a piece to look really fantastic. You might get

8:50

two or three pieces and make one out

8:52

of it, especially with lighting. We buy lots

8:55

of old industrial lighting and the parts are

8:57

interchangeable, so you'd have to spend a lot

8:59

of work cleaning it and making one good

9:01

lamp, maybe a bit straight. And

9:03

then you can ask a good price on it.

9:06

Well, that's why Tim has 30,000 square

9:09

feet up there in Oakville. And most of

9:11

it's trash. So

9:15

do you only make original pieces that

9:17

incorporate artifacts from industry, or do you

9:19

make original pieces? There

9:22

is an item that we

9:24

bought from a school in

9:26

Pennsylvania about 15 years ago,

9:28

and people

9:31

really liked them. So we went ahead and

9:33

now we read, they were designed for children

9:36

in school, they were seats. So

9:38

we redesigned and made them bigger,

9:40

suitable for adults, so we have them manufactured.

9:43

That's not the only thing

9:45

we manufacture, but we sell a lot of them.

9:49

Well, that might bring us to our first topic,

9:51

Tim. Do you have a trademark on that? We

9:54

have a couple of patents, which

9:57

are basically useless to be honest with you. trademark.

10:01

We do have a trademark on our

10:03

name and our logo. That's about it.

10:07

You had somebody reach out about your trademark

10:09

recently, right? Yeah. In fact,

10:11

I have one here, which we

10:13

got in the other day from

10:16

the Patent and Trademark Bureau. So

10:20

what does this letter say? So we got

10:22

two of them. Our name

10:24

is trademarked and our logo is trademarked.

10:27

They want us to renew and

10:29

send the money with a little

10:31

investigation. We found out that we only send money

10:33

to the patent owners or renewals

10:35

or through an attorney. If we have

10:37

patents and they need to be renewed,

10:39

our attorney will let us know.

10:42

So we'll send their money and they'll renew it.

10:44

What kind of money was this? I don't know. I

10:46

don't know what

10:49

you were asking. They want us to get

10:51

in your trademark requires filing. They just want us to

10:53

sign the document and return it and then they would

10:55

send us a obviously if you

10:57

sign a return it, that means they got

10:59

somebody on the hunk. We actually heard

11:01

that last year, the US Patent and Trademark Office

11:03

saw four times as many of these types of

11:06

frauds, everything from collecting

11:08

payments, fishing for info,

11:10

even the selling off of illegally

11:12

registered trademarks. Didn't we have an

11:14

episode about trademark fraud? Nadine jewelry,

11:17

right? Yeah, she was a

11:19

gemologist. Yeah, she she had applied for a

11:21

trademark on her name and logo. And

11:24

she gets a phone call while she's driving,

11:27

presumably from the USPTO,

11:29

the Patent and Trademark Office, saying

11:33

that they saw her

11:35

application and they were willing to help

11:37

her expedite her application. Is

11:39

she were willing to pay something around

11:41

$480? Yeah,

11:44

that was it. And as we've seen a

11:46

bunch of times with other other scams, it's usually just

11:48

a little bit under 500. All

11:50

right. And that is so that they don't get nailed for

11:52

a more serious crime. Right.

11:55

So it really seems like these type of scams

11:57

are on the rise, right guys? Yeah. So

12:00

you sell stuff all the time to companies

12:03

and to private individuals and

12:05

you come across scams quite a bit as

12:08

I understand it, is that right? Yep,

12:11

probably once a month we get

12:13

a juicy one. What

12:15

does a typical juicy one look like? We

12:18

ship all over the world and

12:20

the furthest we have sent items

12:23

was to a remote area in New

12:25

Zealand. So

12:28

it's not unusual for us to get an email to

12:30

say, we are based in

12:32

Christmas Island, we would

12:34

like to buy, you know, we like your items

12:36

and we would like to purchase, you know, whatever.

12:40

You can have a ship to our warehouse in New

12:42

York where we will then have a ship to our

12:45

location in whatever, Christmas Island I

12:47

think was one and the

12:50

Bahamas, Barbados or whatever and

12:53

they'll say, do you take credit card? I

12:55

would say, no, we don't. The

12:58

only thing on international selling will

13:00

only take wire transfers. That

13:03

usually they walk to us.

13:05

Now what is it about the credit card? Adam,

13:07

you're nodding your head. Why does that work? They're

13:10

using a stolen credit card. So

13:12

they're getting a product essentially

13:15

for free on somebody else's dime. And

13:18

how common is it that you get these kind of

13:20

requests and where they're trying to buy something with someone

13:22

else's credit card? Maybe

13:24

we have each one of them out from

13:26

that kind of scam. Travis, how prevalent is

13:28

that? Is it the majority of black

13:31

market purchases of credit cards online? Is that what

13:33

people are doing? Is there buying a credit card,

13:35

buying goods, having a chip somewhere and making the

13:37

money on that? Is that the game? Yeah,

13:40

pretty much. That is the standard playbook there. Got

13:43

you. All right. So more recently,

13:45

you just had somebody try to try a wire

13:47

scam with you, Tim. Can you tell

13:49

us about that? This was a pretty good

13:51

one. I have it here in front of

13:53

me, and there's a series of 13 emails

13:56

back and forth, and they sounded very convincing

13:58

in the beginning. 13, that's

14:00

a lot of emails. This went on

14:02

for a bit. Seems like they must have been

14:04

pretty convincing. This is where things

14:07

went sideways. Lauren.

14:20

Mike. So we host a podcast for Wired

14:22

called Gadget Lab. We do. We

14:24

do. Yes, that is correct. Tell

14:27

the good people some more about it. Well, I think

14:29

the good people should definitely tune in every week because

14:31

they get to hear me roasting you. I know. All

14:34

right. No, really what Gadget Lab is,

14:36

is Mike and I tackling the biggest

14:38

questions in the world of technology. I

14:41

like to think of it as the

14:43

best of Wired's journalism, but in audio

14:45

form. We cover the big news of

14:47

the week in Techland, but we also

14:50

offer our expert analyses and opinions on

14:52

all things consumer tech, whether that's mobile

14:54

apps, hardware, startups, cryptocurrency. Mike, what's been

14:57

a recent highlight episode for you? We

14:59

did a deep dive on the group behind the

15:01

massive Okta hack. We also had a great

15:03

conversation about Web 3 and the Metaverse. What

15:06

stands out for you? Never Metaverse you didn't like.

15:09

I really enjoyed our recent podcast about

15:12

Peloton. And recently the legendary

15:14

tech journalist, Kara Swisher joined us to talk

15:16

all about Elon Musk and the future of

15:18

Twitter. So I guess we should tell people

15:20

how they can listen to our pod. We release a

15:22

new episode of Gadget Lab every week, and

15:24

you can listen and follow us on Apple

15:27

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slash Adam. Okay,

16:35

Tim, we're back. Walk

16:37

us through this attempted wire scam, step

16:39

by step. So it's not

16:41

unusual to get overseas emails. We have even

16:43

shipped to England, believe it or not. That

16:47

was a joke. In case you missed it, that was

16:49

Irish. You know, we've

16:51

shipped all over the world,

16:53

South Africa, New Zealand, Australia,

16:55

Hawaii, England, France, Europe, Germany.

16:57

So it's not unusual to

16:59

get overseas emails requesting quotes,

17:02

shipping quotes, and so forth. 99%

17:05

at a time, they're genuine. This

17:08

one we got, a guy who

17:10

sent us an email and he said basically

17:12

he has a client who's

17:15

very interested in buying our

17:17

swingout seats. Could you please

17:19

provide information pricing and

17:21

delivery lead times? You know, he

17:24

gave his name, company name, everything.

17:26

It seemed genuine. So we responded

17:28

that, yes, we have them in stock. If

17:30

you can give us the delivery in our

17:32

location, we can get our shipping quote and

17:34

give you a complete quote, which

17:36

we did. And okay. And

17:39

Tim, how many did he order? He wanted 40,

17:41

40. And is that a big purchase

17:43

or not? That would have been about 18, 19,000. Oh,

17:47

gosh. Yeah. So

17:49

we got it together and sent them

17:52

back to quote. And then he responded

17:54

saying, yes, our client has

17:56

approved this. We began to notice a couple

17:58

of things that were popping. Because

18:00

only in order he didn't specify.

18:03

Which type of see only sell or swing

18:05

and seats were you could buy, I grow

18:07

older old curry pay depending on where you

18:09

want to use. So. He did

18:11

not see that we were dead center

18:14

close and. So.

18:16

I never. Yeah, I respect them. Forward looking

18:18

for you know what seat they want and

18:20

they said just sit We we just wanted

18:22

exactly what you stayed on your website. Okay.

18:25

Ah, and now hold on. Is that a

18:27

red flag? Because if I'm spending nineteen thousand

18:29

dollars, Or. Eighteen thousand dollars.

18:32

I'm not going to say oh, just send me whatever.

18:36

Yes, That was a bit of

18:38

a red flag does so we went

18:40

ahead and send a quote because the

18:42

price has the same know auto you

18:44

know that was something we can finalize

18:46

you never indicated which it was so

18:48

damn we get we requests you generate

18:50

the invoice and forty on a secure

18:52

areas convenience. A client from

18:54

Cyrus to pay via. Wire.

18:57

Transfer forty years

18:59

alternatively. As a

19:01

Quickbooks integrated, same and system

19:03

invoice option if is available,

19:05

it will be preferable Sir

19:07

of he he is preferable

19:09

twice thrice. Therefore, we

19:12

kindly ask. You sit

19:14

here with us. Details.

19:17

To enable us to make payment

19:19

through the preferred method. Read.

19:22

Stuff Know you're saying that it's the

19:24

preferable part that's making you wonder what's

19:26

going on. The service? What's the parts

19:28

as make a new one Know cause

19:30

people say dumb stuff all the time.

19:33

Tim The war with quickbooks that's often

19:35

used and scams because it's coming from

19:37

a legitimate domain. Raise. And.

19:40

Adam you love quickbooks cause is it so

19:42

it's always so like hassle free and doesn't

19:44

have any any any Yeah I find it

19:47

very easy it's just a couple said I

19:49

would you don't accept with new died out

19:51

why can't figure out how to save it

19:53

or how to export it but other than

19:55

that. And. You know how to use it. And.

19:58

that's my but that's my point is that People

20:00

are familiar with it. They don't know all

20:02

the features on it, so it can be

20:04

a little buggy. Travis's point is the best

20:06

because when you are asked

20:08

to do something through QuickBooks, you're like, oh,

20:10

there's no question here what it is. Tim,

20:12

when you were looking at it, your first

20:14

thought was that the language

20:16

just seemed- Yes. It

20:18

seemed a little iffy and we do. A

20:21

lot of business on QuickBooks, it's and that an

20:23

invoice is paid online. He

20:26

came back, the language was like

20:30

in the first email, he says, so

20:32

we respond within 24 hours, we'll

20:35

respond to an email and he said, thanks

20:37

for your prompt attention. We

20:39

eagerly await your response.

20:42

Who the fuck says eagerly await

20:44

your response? So

20:46

looking back on the email, hindsight

20:49

is 20-20 obviously. So

20:52

then he responds after that. He

20:56

then says, we were prepared to pay QuickBooks.

20:59

Then I'm thinking, and he can back

21:01

charge if it's not right. Let me

21:03

look into who this company is. Tim,

21:06

what is back charging? If

21:09

the customers dissatisfied with the product,

21:11

they can claim

21:13

from the credit card company

21:16

to give

21:18

them back the money they spent because it's

21:20

not what they wanted. It can go to

21:22

the judgment on our part, we

21:24

can raise an issue and talk to

21:26

the credit card company or whatever. And

21:29

once he said that, that was a huge lag

21:31

for us. Maybe this isn't

21:34

the right person to be dealing

21:36

with here. Now,

21:38

the back charge for you just means

21:41

that they might say, we don't like

21:44

this and get your product back, I

21:46

still don't understand the problem. No, there's

21:48

no guarantee. Once they pay for QuickBooks,

21:50

We ship the item because they received the

21:52

item and then they'll say, this is not

21:54

what we want. It's in the back charge.

21:57

So There's no guarantee that you're gonna get

21:59

it back. They have your

22:01

stuff right and they get the money.

22:03

Price? Is there any recourse for you

22:05

in the sense of were happy to

22:08

return the money provided you return the

22:10

product. You

22:12

know we were never in that

22:14

situation. I think once it came

22:16

up. Where we were in

22:18

the rice and a bus used to back

22:20

charged declined to that my system to his

22:22

older logistics of and selling you know dealing

22:25

with that in the winter customised but that

22:27

is a potential for hims to what happened

22:29

next to disguise it he requested a great

22:31

books payment and then and I i'm like

22:33

old on a minute I went to a

22:35

want to look into this a little more

22:37

I saw who the company was a consulting

22:39

company I one I saw the email originally

22:41

I thought it was get designers as we

22:44

do business with designers and it won't tell

22:46

us who the client activists. That's what we

22:48

have. the client food like the you know

22:50

what am. I. Not that to shipping

22:52

address and and I went on. A

22:56

went on google. And. Saw that

22:58

it was an office block unless. What?

23:01

A Shipping A crazy, A huge crane Wayne's

23:03

Dean of the bounds of A over to

23:05

an office. but this is ridiculous. So.

23:08

I looked up the company in a

23:10

call. The company? I don't The guy

23:12

was it's. A free Daniel

23:15

ending up and a Pr consulting and

23:17

left a voicemail and he call me

23:19

back and he said our tanks a

23:22

call I made this is a scam

23:24

somebody it is using our names. And.

23:27

Since byproduct and he said of

23:29

see a look at. The

23:31

email they sent you. You

23:34

will see that the email address

23:36

my as us on the end

23:38

of us. So that he

23:40

had. A D P or

23:42

Consulting. Us. Dot

23:45

Com. Where. The

23:47

real companies? A Pr consulting? doubt

23:49

some. So. That

23:51

was it. We just didn't fall or true and

23:53

any malice if we didn't dare send a products

23:56

we haven't heard some dirt sense. That's

23:59

not a small the job to pack up that stuff and

24:01

ready the ship. Yeah, Well of. For

24:03

me I guys do not attempt at

24:05

Tim you didn't get lucky. You are

24:07

hyper vigilant. Is that accurate? Is that

24:09

kind of what has to happen when

24:12

you're in? He or she might. Yeah,

24:14

definitely. I just went on way too

24:16

long. I said caught this earlier when

24:18

we get an email from a company

24:20

is check out the companies especially with

24:22

the big order place. Guess. We

24:24

got a nice order of the table so i

24:26

called to design or just of over you things

24:28

and s nice tip. To. Realize

24:30

that it's not a scam and as to

24:33

genuine thanks to surf very high price like

24:35

a twenty two thousand other tables. As

24:37

wanna make sure that they want to go ahead

24:39

with it and did not just kicking the tires.

24:42

So. The end of the day tim. No

24:44

harm, no foul or well no after

24:47

we stop jumping around with excitement for

24:49

am concerts a nice big order. We.

24:52

Went ahead. Dot the

24:54

shipment ready, packed up and on. A

24:56

palliative. required my guys to take time

24:58

and get out and together. Costs: So

25:00

time back and forth with emails and

25:02

so time is money, rice and like

25:04

I could have been doing something else.

25:06

Rather than spend and a half a

25:08

day I can upper and order. Issue

25:11

of other clients so your time going to be

25:13

dedicated to are taken care of them. Have you

25:15

know we have a backlog of orders right now?

25:18

I'm extremely busy. It was a wizard fun. If

25:22

we're in your shoes and we have our and

25:24

we started a movement in furniture design and we'd

25:27

like to sell our stuff for a huge amount

25:29

of money, what do you do to avoid this

25:31

in the future? How do you save your time?

25:33

Sounds like we're all this does is it costs

25:35

you time and maybe money. But time for sir.

25:38

I mean we get a lot of emails every

25:40

you know. We get a big. I. Would

25:42

say we get ten inquiries everyday.

25:45

People. Buying things were selling were selling. I

25:47

have Zola time. Is. It looks

25:49

too good to be true. It probably years

25:51

if we get a big order like dad.

25:54

A juicy going to like a baseball stadium

25:56

or. Utah. jazz the soul of

25:58

they would they ordered a minute Quite

26:00

a few. We're in Hotel, Casino. We've sold

26:03

quite a few. So when we

26:05

get a big order, maybe investigate it a

26:07

little more before you do business with them.

26:09

Check the company out. Because immediately my assistant

26:12

said, well, that's a nice order, but do

26:14

you think it's a little fishy? And

26:17

so there was a

26:19

flag immediately that we didn't

26:22

investigate. But if you do

26:24

have an inkling that sometimes

26:27

not right here, follow the thread back to

26:29

the company and even give them a phone

26:31

call and talk to the person

26:33

who sent the email. Do

26:36

your homework. You

26:41

know, because there was like 30 emails

26:44

involved that we were knee deep into

26:46

it. You know, usually we're not. Usually

26:48

we can see them fairly quickly and

26:51

cook them all. And I mean, we

26:53

must get about 10 phone calls a

26:55

day from companies. People just wanting

26:57

to you to respond. It's a constant

26:59

thing. I mean, we get it like,

27:03

you know, like, for example, the

27:05

patent renewals, right? We get

27:07

false DOT renewals for

27:09

our truck from companies saying we need

27:11

to renew your information on your commercial.

27:14

We have a big truck. So with

27:17

renew that. First Dibs is a company we

27:19

do a tremendous amount of business, which is

27:21

a great resource for designers and architects. And

27:24

we've been with them since 2007. But

27:28

we will get something like here.

27:30

Johnny just wrote it out for me. My

27:32

grandmother is interested in purchasing. So,

27:38

you know, some

27:41

of them are so stupid that

27:43

you have to let I mean, we could find them

27:46

right. Well, you're clearly

27:48

very scam savvy and just wondering, is

27:50

that just natural or did

27:52

you learn that through hard experience? Well, I

27:54

am from Dublin. Or are

27:56

you a scammer in disguise? Yeah, no,

27:58

I know. Pretty much,

28:00

you know, I

28:03

grew up in Dublin, went to work in

28:05

England at 16 and spent

28:07

a lot of time in London in the 60s. So

28:10

fairly savvy when I was

28:12

being approached by people for

28:15

whatever. My God, we'll raise a flag

28:18

or a fart. I

28:24

was about to say, so you can smell a rat, but

28:26

then smelling a fart, I think is better. All

28:30

right, boys, come on. No more

28:32

potty humor, Adam. No flatulence here.

28:34

No, no, no. Lush

28:37

it away. So,

28:49

Tim, are there any other tools other

28:51

than gut and head that

28:53

you use to suss out potential scams and

28:55

fraud? I mean, what are some of

28:57

the best practices you'd suggest? I have a great

29:00

assistant, Johnny, who reads all the emails first and

29:02

then we go over both of them together. It's

29:05

good to bounce it off somebody else and get their

29:07

feeling on it. But also

29:09

follow through. If you do have

29:13

an inkling that something's wrong, follow the thread back

29:15

to the source, see if you can find if

29:17

the source is real and

29:19

not a phony. And

29:23

I mean, most companies

29:25

will provide if they don't

29:27

provide enough information, like the name of the company,

29:29

the name of the designer, a phone number, that's

29:32

usually a red flag too. But

29:34

this last one was very good. So.

29:38

Well, as we like to say on this show, if you

29:40

don't want remorse, go to the source. So, live in

29:42

proof. I

29:45

think we have what we need. Adam, can you do the thank you

29:47

and get out of here? Thank

29:51

you, Tim. Get out of here. No. That's

29:54

good. Anyway,

29:56

Tim, we really appreciate you taking your time

29:59

with us. and sharing some

30:01

good humor and wisdom. And

30:03

we certainly hope that everyone

30:05

should have a Johnny in their life to

30:08

make sure that they're not being

30:10

taken. Well,

30:13

I don't know about your phrasing of Johnny

30:15

in other countries that has a different meaning,

30:17

but however, I appreciate. That's,

30:19

that's, sorry. I appreciate

30:21

your interest in what we do

30:24

and turn it on with you

30:26

today. And thanks

30:28

again, take care. No, and Tim, speaking

30:30

about what you do, if people would

30:32

like to learn more about what you

30:34

do and see the work product

30:36

that you folks produce, where's

30:39

the best place for them to go? Well,

30:41

you can go on a website, it's get

30:43

back inc.com, g-e-t-b-a-c-k-i-n-c.com.

30:49

And you'll see everything that's

30:51

available right now. But if you do have

30:53

questions on something, maybe you

30:55

would be interested in that we

30:57

may have in our warehouse. You can always

30:59

send us an email at info at getbackinc.com.

31:02

And we will respond to you promptly. Get

31:06

back, Inc. I'm just curious, is

31:08

that referred to retribution

31:11

or the Beatles song? It, originally,

31:14

it really referred

31:16

to the speed at which

31:18

we're moving as people through

31:22

modern technology. I mean, technically, I'm

31:24

so lost when it comes to

31:26

computers, design that

31:30

was being thrown into scrap yards

31:32

and just passed up

31:34

and overlooked. I

31:36

think we've done a lot to educate

31:38

people on really, you

31:40

know, really good design of a past year and

31:43

it was overlooked, you know. What

31:46

went into making a piece

31:48

required a master craftsman to

31:50

make one piece that was gonna be

31:52

used in industry. And it was really

31:54

the backbone of, you know, an industrial

31:56

era in the United States. In

31:59

Fact, You. Know I percent

32:01

of the i was made in the

32:03

world were made Here is net not

32:05

forty eight States that has changed dramatically

32:07

as American history. I can do this

32:09

many of the country and. France

32:12

was very fluffy and are just he

32:14

had this is a. although

32:17

jump from of. And

32:20

nepotism although chef was a was posed

32:22

trillion plus and you know American industrialists

32:24

and also during to save more ward

32:27

and melted everything they could possibly get

32:29

their hands on. Where the war where

32:31

is he denied it states was a

32:34

huge man up with manufacturing and United

32:36

States when essential to the Second World

32:38

war so a lot of pieces remain

32:40

and we'd really like to get items

32:43

preset more for so. Long.

32:46

Ago. Thanks. To him Oh thank

32:48

you are right I'll see ya later

32:50

We're finished. Fans. You

32:53

can go now. Okay,

33:05

time for a Tinfoil Swan are paranoid

33:07

take away to keep you safe on

33:09

and offline service. Waiting for this this

33:11

week so would the Antique where I

33:13

find a a time and again is

33:15

that the internet has made as a

33:17

lot easier to conduct business but is

33:19

also provided fertile seals for all kinds

33:21

of scammers right? And

33:24

as tempting as it is just to

33:26

say stay offline, That's just not a

33:28

reality for businesses or individuals. So what

33:30

should people do to avoid wire fraud

33:32

specifically? Well, I think you've heard me

33:35

say this once. twice, smith thousand times.

33:37

But if you want to avoid remorse,

33:39

go to the source. Any tie your

33:41

bad to wire money, especially when involves

33:43

hundreds of thousands of dollars, call the

33:46

person you're sending a to confirm that

33:48

it's a real request and just double

33:50

check the email of a center. It's

33:52

fossils and phony. and voices from legitimate

33:55

domains but unless you're paying attention

33:57

getting an email from say what

33:59

the heck's.com Uh, and so

34:01

what the heck, pod.com. It's just not going to stand out

34:03

to you. Also no matter what

34:05

the size of your business, invest either

34:07

some time in educating your employees to

34:09

recognize scams or some money in having

34:12

someone else do it. You're really only

34:14

as secure as your least cyber

34:16

aware employee, which in some

34:19

cases might be you. Me?

34:22

The tricks. Nope. There's

34:25

always going to be an element of risk in sending

34:27

or receiving money online. You can't be a

34:29

hundred percent safe, but you can be a lot safer if

34:32

you go slow, pay attention and ask Adam

34:34

for money because he never checks. That's

34:36

actually not true. I've never met anybody

34:39

who's more aware of accounts payable and

34:41

receivable than Mr. Levin. I

34:43

am, shall we say, financially paranoid.

34:46

Just a bit. Or perhaps watchful. Well,

34:49

actually one other thing, which is that old

34:51

scam I can never remember the number. Remember

34:53

when somebody was just taking credit cards and

34:56

charging a very small amount? 84

34:58

to be exact. And you know what

35:01

happens when you do that to 600 people? You

35:04

make some money. Yes, you do. You do

35:06

need to look at your accounts and when

35:09

you're wiring money, you need to look at

35:11

the whole situation. Call

35:13

is this the right number? Are you receiving

35:15

it? Is this the right account number? Who

35:18

are you? Do I know you? And

35:21

yet again, if you get an invoice, even if

35:23

it is from say, QuickBooks

35:25

or anything that's a

35:27

legitimate domain, it is not necessarily going to

35:30

be real. And that's our 10th for us one. What

35:39

the heck with Adam Levin is a production of LoudTree Media.

35:42

You can find us online at adamlevin.com

35:44

and on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at

35:46

AdamK11. Thank

35:58

you. you