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1:01

Guys, you ever wish that in the middle

1:03

of a conversation that you had a lifeline?

1:05

Oh, most definitely. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, I

1:07

do. The good

1:09

news this week, we have the Attorney General

1:11

of the state of Vermont, Charity Clark, who's

1:13

going to be our lifeline when it comes

1:15

to the scams we all face. And

1:18

with that, welcome to What the Hack, a

1:21

true cybercrime podcast. I'm

1:23

Adam Levin. I'm Beau Friedlander. And

1:25

I'm Travis Taylor. Welcome

1:35

to our show, Attorney General Charity Clark

1:37

from Vermont. Thanks for having me. It's really

1:39

exciting to be here with you today. General

1:41

Clark, how would you like us to address

1:43

you during this podcast? You can call

1:46

me Charity. Excellent. You

1:48

were an attorney at a private firm, you know, a big

1:51

firm in New York. What

1:53

led you to pivot to public service? I

1:55

worked In the same building where

1:57

the Attorney General's office is today. Thank you. Because.

2:00

I work in the Governor's office in Vermont, so

2:03

my career really started out as a public servants.

2:05

I. Made my way to law school. And

2:07

then private practice including a a stint in

2:09

New York City. And then I made my

2:12

my way back to the Pavilion office building

2:14

and I and that's when I arrived for

2:16

my interview. My first shot back at the

2:18

Attorney General's office. I ran to the same

2:20

facility and who was there when I was

2:22

the Governor's office and usually he charities. You

2:24

changed a lot and always was a lot.

2:26

By that was almost ten years ago. Now

2:28

and I'm it's been awesome. Charity.

2:32

I remember when you are New York City, that's her. We

2:34

met. We lived in the same neighborhood we

2:36

had of mutual friend. When. You came

2:38

back Positive reaction to that. Had just become

2:40

a big city person. Know because I was

2:42

like ten years older. And

2:46

I did. You go back specifically

2:48

to pursue the Attorney General's slaughtered

2:50

You go back to practice on

2:52

Vermont. So I went back because I

2:54

was seven months pregnant. I. Wanted

2:56

my child to grow up in Vermont because

2:58

it's the best places on earth so I

3:01

possibly ski them by some cases. Rented a

3:03

car and a drawback to Vermont to sell

3:05

Storm. I

3:07

didn't have a job. I decided I

3:09

was gonna buy my own maternity leave.

3:12

And. Then when. My daughter was five

3:14

months old. I called. The Attorney General's

3:16

office and I got down there. So

3:21

I remember when you were floating the

3:23

idea of running for Attorney General. How

3:27

was that campaign in Vermont hundred ago? He.

3:29

Was pretty wild. That was the summer

3:31

of Twenty Twenty Two. Vermont

3:34

is a very liberal place, so

3:36

the real to elections in Vermont

3:38

generally are. The primary. The.

3:40

Primary in Vermont. His likeness

3:42

Second Tuesday August. I

3:44

found out there was once been open

3:47

seat when my then boss the attorney

3:49

general announced he wasn't gonna run and

3:51

gun. That early next so

3:53

I had to. Quit. My

3:55

job watch my campaign and. let

3:58

vermonters no way was and what i about,

4:00

convinced them to vote for me, and

4:02

raise a ton of money to do that all before August

4:04

9th. So it was the

4:07

wildest summer of my life. Sometimes

4:10

I still dream about it because it was

4:12

such a whirlwind. When you only

4:14

have like two and a half months to

4:16

win a statewide election, you can't plan everything

4:19

out perfectly. You have to roll in and

4:21

do your best. And that's not

4:23

a comfort spot for attorneys. We

4:25

like to be prepared and we like

4:27

to have vetted everything, Adam's nodding. It

4:30

was truly a whirlwind. But it was

4:32

also really fun. One of the reasons

4:34

why I was fun is because there were so many people

4:37

running for office. There were a ton of

4:39

open seats. So everywhere

4:41

I went, I would run into other people

4:43

who were all friends in Vermoxville, know each

4:45

other. So it was really, really fun. Like

4:47

we would march in a parade and it would be like marching

4:49

in a parade with all your friends. And

4:52

we had a ball. All

4:55

right. So Charity, we talk a

4:57

lot about scams on this show and we

4:59

know you're a fellow traveler with us. This

5:02

is so true. You're a scam

5:04

fighter and we appreciate that. In fact,

5:06

you just published a list of the

5:09

top scams to watch out for in

5:11

Vermont. Can you tell our listeners

5:13

a little bit about the top scams that

5:15

you've seen? I want to preface this

5:18

by saying I could literally talk to you

5:20

all day about scams. I feel passionately about

5:22

scams. One of the reasons

5:24

is because we know that education is the

5:26

best means of fighting scams. So people are

5:28

going to be talking a lot about scams

5:31

because I'm trying to tell people about them.

5:34

Scammers are largely overseas. We cannot track

5:36

them down. We can't shut them down.

5:38

Our best tool is

5:40

educating each other about scams.

5:45

The number one scam we encountered

5:47

at our consumer assistance program

5:49

in Vermont was the tech support

5:51

scam. We got twice

5:53

as many complaints about that scam than

5:56

number two. So we did by

5:58

far the hottest scam ever. No

6:01

reasons why, it's because it's very effective. So

6:04

that scam looks like this. You're on your

6:06

computer minding your own business when a pop-up

6:08

comes up and it says,

6:10

hey, you have a virus. Click

6:12

here. And either it's a phishing scam and

6:14

then they're going to try to get a bunch of information from

6:17

you that they can then

6:19

steal your identity with. They

6:21

say, I can help you with your

6:24

virus. Let me remotely

6:26

access your computer. And

6:29

once you allow someone to

6:31

access your computer remotely, they

6:33

can find your bookmarks, your bank

6:35

accounts, your emails, all of it,

6:38

like chilling tales from consumers who

6:40

called our office saying they watched

6:43

helplessly as the money was

6:45

getting drained from their accounts and transferred

6:47

to a scammer's account. We've

6:49

also heard a tale of someone tried

6:51

to click out of the

6:54

pop-up and the scammer hid

6:58

the link that you would click

7:00

on to allow them to access your computer remotely under

7:03

the ox. So when I

7:05

get one of those pop-ups, I turn my computer off.

7:07

Even if it's probably like so legitimate most of the

7:09

time. When I have a problem with my

7:11

computer, I drive it to Best Buy.

7:13

I never even allowed Best Buy to remotely

7:15

access my computer because I hear these chilling

7:18

tales, people losing hundreds of thousands of

7:20

dollars this way. How

7:24

many cases of the tech support scam have you seen?

7:28

Last year it was 531 reports of the tech support scam. And

7:34

that's just within Vermont? Yes, and

7:36

that's just recorded. We had a person

7:38

within the past few years who

7:41

lost about $600,000 in the tech support scam

7:45

that was the largest one that year. So

7:47

it really sticks with my head and it

7:49

was a sophisticated person and it was crypto

7:51

that they lost. We see a lot

7:53

of crypto in the top 10 scams when

7:56

we calculate the magnitude of loss. As

7:58

hard as it is, there's no consumer

8:00

protection with cryptocurrency. We

8:04

recently did a program with

8:07

a woman named Marsry, a former government attorney,

8:09

who fell victim to a

8:11

tech support scam. Supposedly another

8:14

member of the team was

8:16

affiliated with the bank that she

8:19

banked at and asked

8:21

if there was any way that

8:23

she noticed fraudulent activity occurring on

8:25

her accounts. She had

8:27

received an email which she never did. They

8:30

basically convinced her to allow them

8:32

to open a Coinbase account in

8:35

her name and that it

8:37

would be much more secure while they were sorting

8:39

out the fraud. If she could

8:41

move her assets over to cryptocurrency, she ended

8:43

up moving over $660,000 including her retirement accounts.

8:50

Thankfully this person was a

8:52

former federal employee, an

8:54

attorney who had been involved in many

8:57

different legal situations. So she did know

8:59

how to navigate it and she also

9:01

happened to have the funds to

9:04

pay an attorney to help her and

9:06

she came out relatively whole minus

9:08

the amount of money she had to spend

9:10

on legal fees to rectify

9:13

the situation. Tech

9:15

support scams are shockingly

9:18

effective. If they

9:20

hack into the right person they're getting

9:22

a lot, maybe millions of dollars. So

9:25

what else do you have on your list that maybe

9:27

our listeners aren't aware of? I

9:30

have my, I call it my Cherry Clark

9:32

red flag formula of what a scam is.

9:35

It's when someone you don't know is trying

9:37

to convince you to give them money urgently

9:40

and there's a sense of emotion.

9:43

So in that case the emotion is concerned

9:45

and that's part of why it's so effective.

9:47

It's like oh my gosh I have a

9:50

computer virus. I don't know anything about computers

9:52

and you're all worried you're not thinking you're

9:55

feeling. So you see

9:57

that all the time with scams people are worried

9:59

they're concerned. or the fake package scam.

10:01

You know, when someone's doing it as a phishing

10:03

scam, they say like, oh, you're getting a package.

10:06

You're excited. You're like, whoa, someone mailed me something.

10:08

Or I ordered something and I forgot. So those

10:10

emotions, that's like the first starting point

10:12

with an effective scam that you're in your

10:14

emotion. So we

10:17

have a variety of

10:19

scams, but they're all really familiar

10:22

to me, except there's one new scam

10:24

on our top 10 list this year.

10:26

It's the rewards credit scam. We're

10:29

hearing about this. It comes via email

10:31

from a supposedly legitimate retailer saying, great

10:34

news, you've got rewards credit. And it's

10:36

a phishing scam. Click here and fill

10:38

out this information so that we can

10:40

get you your rewards credit. But there's

10:43

no rewards credit. It's not really that

10:45

major retailer. We got a lot of

10:47

reports on that scam, 132 reports. When

10:51

our largest was 531, but that's a lot. So

10:54

wanted to flag that because I think that might be an

10:56

up and coming scam and it's on the rise. And

10:59

what do you think they're after in that scam? I

11:01

think they want your social security number and your

11:03

address, your name, the things that they could use

11:06

to open up a bank account, credit card and

11:08

steal money that way. Which

11:10

is why we always say freeze your credit

11:13

because even if they do have your social

11:15

security number, it's gonna stop a lot of

11:17

problems from happening. As

11:19

attorney general, what is it exactly that you do

11:22

about scams? I would say that

11:24

our real focus when it comes to scams is

11:27

our consumer assistance program. And every

11:29

state has essentially a consumer assistance

11:31

program. But in Vermont, it's located

11:33

at our university. The

11:36

people who are operating phones

11:38

and answering emails are students

11:40

who take a class called

11:43

consumer law in action. And

11:45

we have other consumer classes that we teach.

11:47

I've taught these classes before at UVM. And

11:50

we train them to be

11:52

little consumer lieutenants going out in

11:54

the world, knowing all about consumer

11:56

law and rights. They also are

11:58

helping people with their consumer. concerns.

12:01

Many of those concerns are not scams.

12:03

It's legitimate companies who did something

12:06

wrong, there was a miscommunication, you didn't get

12:08

what you were expecting. We call those complaints.

12:11

Then there's the scam reports. We

12:13

are using the scam reports to

12:15

educate people like I just did

12:17

telling you about the new rewards

12:19

credit scam. But also

12:21

we have a team

12:23

in place at the Consumer Assistance Program

12:26

who focuses on robocall scams. I'd love

12:28

to tell you a little bit about

12:30

our robocall team. Robocall

12:32

scams, just like most

12:35

scams, occur overseas and you feel

12:37

kind of helpless. How do you go after

12:39

them? We figured out a way. We

12:41

have gone after the telephone

12:44

carrier who's located here in

12:46

the United States who facilitates

12:48

the scam. Because of

12:50

our friends in the federal government

12:52

during the Social Security scam, they

12:55

operated with us as a team

12:57

and they did what's called a

12:59

trace back. Where you trace back

13:01

the number and if you have,

13:03

you know, within 24 hours you can see where

13:05

the number came from. We have now settled with

13:07

a few companies. One of them just went out

13:09

of business after we settled. We also have some

13:12

investigations going with those companies, some of the

13:14

worst actors that we see. The way that

13:16

we can tell it's a scam, the quantity

13:18

of calls that are less than a minute.

13:21

And then we do on our investigation

13:23

and learn more. That's kind of our

13:25

first clue. Their scams are so prevalent

13:27

but it feels good to be doing

13:29

something and to be addressing that the

13:31

harm that we know is there and

13:33

saying we don't have a tolerance for

13:35

you directing scam robocalls into Vermont.

13:44

So, Bo and Adam, you guys know I'm

13:46

a bit of a privacy geek, if you

13:49

will. Oh yeah. Yeah, you are. Yeah, totally.

13:51

I really just don't like the idea that

13:53

just about anyone can find you online, can

13:55

find out where you live or your email

13:57

address, your phone number, anything. I just think

13:59

that entire idea is super creepy. There's so

14:01

much of my data already out there, but

14:03

is there something that you can do? Yeah,

14:05

actually you can use delete me. Delete me

14:07

is a service that pretty much does the

14:09

heavy lifting for you where they go to

14:11

all the data brokers that they have on

14:13

file and just pull your data

14:15

and delete it on a regular basis. I

14:17

use it, I like it, and they make

14:19

it quick, easy, and safe to remove your

14:21

personal data online. We have with these data

14:23

brokers, they can accumulate huge amounts of your

14:25

personally identifiable information. And if all that information

14:27

gets into the hands of a bad actor,

14:29

that opens you up to a lot of risk.

14:32

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for what the heck. And we thank

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you for supporting delete me and what

15:01

that. Lauren.

15:04

Mike. So we host a podcast for

15:06

Wired called Gadget Lab. We do. We

15:09

do. Yes, that is

15:11

correct. Tell the good people some more about

15:13

it. Well, I think the good people should

15:15

definitely tune in every week because they get

15:17

to hear me roasting you. I know. All

15:20

right. No, really what Gadget Lab is, is

15:22

Mike and I tackling the biggest questions in

15:24

the world of technology. I like to think

15:26

of it as the best of Wired's journalism,

15:29

but in audio form. We cover the big

15:31

news of the week in Techland, but we

15:33

also offer our expert analyses and opinions on

15:35

all things consumer tech, whether that's mobile apps,

15:38

hardware, startups, cryptocurrency. Mike, what's

15:41

been a recent highlight episode

15:43

for you? We did a deep

15:45

dive on the group behind the massive Okta hack.

15:47

We also had a great conversation about Web3 and

15:50

the Metaverse. What stands out for

15:52

you? Never Metaverse you didn't like. I

15:55

really enjoyed our recent podcast about Peloton.

15:58

And Recently, the legendary Tech Journal. Kara

16:00

Swisher joined us to talk all about Elon musk

16:02

in the future of Twitter so I guess we

16:04

should help people how they can listen to our

16:06

pod. We release a new episode of Get

16:08

Alive every week and you can listen and

16:11

follow us on Apple podcasts, spotter Fi, or

16:13

were reported. Saturday.

16:20

We talk a lot on the show about

16:22

facial recognition. And the

16:24

issues with facial recognition technology and

16:26

the Vermont. Attorney General's

16:28

office is taking on a lot

16:31

of privacy issues associated with facial

16:33

recognition. Tell. Us about that. I

16:36

feel strongly about this issue. There's

16:38

two areas said think about. One

16:40

is legislation that advocating for and

16:42

I'm hopeful what'll get across the

16:44

finish line during the current legislative.

16:46

Session and for much the second is in

16:48

lawsuit the we have filed against. Accompanying and

16:50

probably are firmly rinse your and since he some

16:53

recognition which is called clear view a I. Merely.

16:56

A I is start up company.

16:58

they and screen scraped the internet.

17:01

For. A photograph. They. Use

17:03

an algorithm to create a

17:05

facial recognition system that can

17:07

identify people. They now has

17:09

amassed. Tens. Of

17:11

billions of photographs and. Apparently

17:14

are trying to face now everybody on earth.

17:17

We view this as

17:19

a violation of privacy

17:21

and had sued through.

17:23

The unfairness prong of the

17:25

Vermont Consumer Protection Act. Be

17:28

sued in March of Twenty Twenty. During that

17:30

time the pictures in the Clear View database

17:32

have just thrown in ground and one of

17:34

the things I want to emphasize is someone

17:37

listening to us may be thinking you pull

17:39

your profile picture on your Facebook page and

17:41

public that's not. All. Their.

17:44

Their algorithms is not discriminate and say

17:46

oh, this is a Facebook profile. it

17:48

literally just looks for pictures so as

17:50

i am sitting on a bench in

17:52

a park eating a sandwich my imagination

17:54

is like a sloppy egg salad sandwich

17:56

and i look ridiculous sitting on the

17:58

park bench I'm in the back of

18:01

a tourist photo. I don't know, my photo's

18:03

being taken, and yet it's being screen scraped in

18:05

Clearview's database. I have no idea it's there. I

18:07

think I'm having a sweet moment with my family,

18:09

having a picnic or something. And the other thing

18:12

about it is they're making money off of my

18:14

face. And I'm not getting a cut of

18:16

that money. That bugs me too. The

18:19

whole thing bugs me. Now, when I

18:21

think about what Clearview AI is doing,

18:23

I have different issues with it. Even

18:26

my Facebook profile picture. When I

18:28

posted it, I did not read

18:30

the privacy policy that Meta, then

18:32

Facebook, published about the use of

18:35

my photograph. I was

18:37

squeamish about seeing it pop up in

18:40

Google searches. We live

18:42

in a wild west of digital

18:44

commerce that is based

18:46

on our data. And

18:48

that is deeply problematic, not only because I

18:51

agree with you, I should get a cut.

18:53

If you're gonna use my picture to bolster

18:55

a database, you better give me some money

18:57

for it. But

18:59

the other thing is privacy and the

19:01

expectation of privacy. That's the strongest constitutional

19:03

way to go after these companies. But

19:05

the second one is intellectual property. Because

19:08

the photograph's mine. That's my

19:10

photograph. I have in theory the copyright

19:12

to that photograph. So how

19:14

about that? How about just sending them a big

19:17

bill? Can you do that, Jarenny? I'll

19:20

file an amicus brief in your case, Bo. Thanks,

19:23

I want at least 10 bucks. And

19:26

you can refer to the NIL

19:28

program for the NCAA. Yeah,

19:31

I was thinking name, image and likeness. And it's sort

19:33

of, you know, so it does come down to that.

19:36

There's another program that we learned about through

19:38

Cashmere Hill, the one where you could input

19:40

a picture of yourself and see how many

19:42

times it pops up. Yeah, that one was

19:45

pretty spooky, I think. That was Pim Eyes.

19:47

Correct. And you know what, the funny thing

19:50

is, I put you on Pim Eyes and I put Travis on

19:52

Pim Eyes, I put me on Pim Eyes, everyone. And

19:54

some of it's dumb, right? Because

19:57

I live with somebody who has their picture

20:00

place and when it popped up it was like

20:02

yeah that's this person whatever with you same thing

20:04

it was just like how many times you've been

20:06

on TV or whatever with me was a little

20:08

more concerning and with Travis

20:10

it was deeply concerning because Travis is

20:12

not I'm like I've been in

20:14

and out of public this or that but Travis hasn't

20:16

and so it was he was all over the place

20:18

I could figure out who he was I don't know

20:21

why I think I may have just been insulted but

20:23

okay it got you it didn't

20:28

get you very well but I

20:30

found you on there what does

20:32

the Attorney General of the state

20:34

of Vermont think about that? I am

20:36

disturbed by this and I would just

20:38

say you know in Vermont privacy is

20:41

part of our ethos here

20:45

about a hundred years ago Vermont was

20:47

given the opportunity to cave our

20:49

green mountains for tourism and town

20:53

meetings across the state were like no

20:55

thank you we're not gonna spoil our

20:57

beautiful green mountains and maybe

21:00

50 years after that we were

21:03

probably the first say I don't know if we're

21:05

the only state to ban billboards because

21:07

our beauty is not for sale our communities

21:09

are not for sale and our privacy should

21:11

not be for sale that's

21:14

just kind of where we are in Vermont

21:16

so I feel like you asked me for

21:18

my opinion thinking important thing

21:20

is my opinion is just reflecting a

21:22

Vermont value which is we all deserve

21:25

our privacy and we deserve to control

21:27

how our faces use it

21:30

really bugs me that someone would

21:32

be making off my data or

21:35

my face because it feels very

21:37

exploitative and unfair yeah also just

21:39

you know from the state that brought you

21:41

the floating bridge of Brookfield I

21:45

went to Mount Mansfield to the top of it because

21:47

it's so beautiful I'm obsessed without

21:50

Mansfield it's so beautiful and majestic 707

21:57

now a consumer group is calling on California to

21:59

take action again against the company for its

22:01

facial recognition technology. The nonprofit consumer Watch

22:03

Dogs sent letters to State Attorney General

22:06

Rob Bonta and the California Privacy Protection

22:08

Agency. Watch Dog accuses

22:10

the Clearview company of creating

22:12

an artificial intelligence facial recognition

22:14

software that violates privacy laws.

22:17

Concerns include mining personal data of

22:19

children and inaccurate facial recognition of

22:22

African Americans. Clearview promotes its technology

22:24

as high quality algorithms that are

22:26

accurate and help monitor... What's

22:31

the upshot of your case against Clearview? We

22:34

are in motion's practice right now and

22:37

trial is set for later this year. I

22:40

believe very strongly that our

22:42

Consumer Protection Act protects Vermonters

22:44

against this. I think

22:46

it's important that we advocate in the legislature

22:49

for changes to our laws

22:51

that will expand and address some of

22:54

these changing technologies in a way that's

22:56

maybe more specific than the Consumer Protection

22:58

Act. And it also

23:00

is important to raise awareness about these

23:02

issues. I don't think a lot of

23:05

people realize how much their data is

23:07

being collected. I don't think they know

23:09

what a data broker is. I don't think they realize

23:11

when they get a free app on their phone, it's

23:13

not free, they're trading their data for it. All

23:16

of that, I think, is something that we should be

23:18

continuing to talk about so people can realize what's happening

23:21

and what the potential impacts are because the

23:23

potential impacts are really disturbing as well. Not

23:25

only is it your data, there could

23:27

be a data breach and now your data is in

23:29

the hands of a bad actor, but

23:32

we also, there's a history

23:34

of outcomes that are discriminatory

23:37

for facial recognition software, some

23:39

of which are incredibly disturbing, people

23:41

getting arrested for being mistaken for

23:44

another person, that they very plainly are

23:46

enough. So it is

23:48

really disturbing. And as a woman,

23:50

the potential misuse of this

23:53

kind of technology for women

23:55

who are experiencing domestic violence or

23:57

intimate partner violence, and so

23:59

forth, also are very disturbing to

24:01

me. Well, just to start off,

24:03

I agree with you completely about the

24:05

privacy concerns here, but just to play

24:08

devil's advocate, are there actually legitimate uses

24:10

for Clearview technology? Well,

24:12

the use that is

24:14

the most compelling is the

24:16

use that they can use

24:18

the spatial recognition software to

24:20

find criminal actors. Like anything

24:22

in public policy, we need

24:24

to find out where the

24:26

right balance is. Should all

24:28

of us have our

24:30

privacy sacrificed so that it takes

24:33

less time to find a

24:35

criminal actor? I don't

24:37

think we've really had an opportunity to have

24:39

that robust conversation because Clearview

24:43

started acting before really

24:45

investigating what the outcomes might be.

24:47

And in fact, when they

24:49

started, they weren't focused on law enforcement.

24:51

They were focused on billionaire potential

24:54

investors. They were trying to convince to

24:56

invest in their startup, and

24:58

they weren't focused on the public good. They

25:01

were focused on their bottom line. They

25:03

realized they better just focus on the convincing

25:05

thing. But when you look around the country

25:08

at the lawsuits against them, it's really disturbing.

25:10

It's actually so fascinating to you. When you

25:12

think about other countries' experience

25:14

with privacy and how they're responding

25:17

to things like this, this threat,

25:19

it's really fascinating to think about

25:21

their history and their context, like

25:23

in Germany, in Europe, and how they're approaching

25:25

this compared to our country. It's almost

25:27

like people are being naive and they're not

25:30

as worked up as they could be because

25:32

they don't have the historical context that

25:34

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27:09

Charity, I know that Vermont is

27:11

moving forward. You've been a big

27:13

advocate of more stringent privacy regulation

27:15

in the state. There are a

27:17

number of states that have fairly

27:19

strict privacy laws, California being the

27:21

strictest, which is modeled

27:24

after the GDPR in Europe. But

27:27

what I worry about is we have this

27:29

patchwork of privacy laws in this country where

27:33

ultimately would it be better if there

27:36

were a federal law? Of course, the only

27:38

issue with the federal laws tends to get

27:40

so watered down by the time it shows

27:43

up. Bingo, bingo. That is

27:45

the problem. If California's laws could

27:47

be national, that would be wonderful.

27:50

The beauty of federalism is every state

27:52

has our own philosophy and ethos, and

27:55

it allows for that diversity to have

27:57

this federalism that we have. So yes.

28:00

There's some good to having a patchwork,

28:02

but I don't think the industry,

28:05

the privacy advocates, people

28:07

think it's better to have this patchwork.

28:09

It's very cumbersome for all, but

28:12

it does allow for that diversity of

28:14

viewpoint. And so I want

28:16

to acknowledge that the bigger problem is

28:19

our Congress struggles to

28:21

pass legislation. It's not just that

28:24

it's water never happens. That is,

28:26

I think, a larger problem. I

28:29

would never say to any state

28:31

legislature, don't worry, Congress will take care of

28:33

this. No, you should ask if you care

28:35

about something. So honestly, that's a bigger problem.

28:37

Well, we know that Congress can't agree on

28:39

the day of the week. And a few

28:42

years ago, I was in Washington, and

28:44

I said to them, where are we on

28:46

privacy? And the response was, we'll get some

28:48

activity on security. But nobody

28:51

can seem to agree what privacy

28:53

is here in Congress. So that's

28:55

pretty disturbing. One thing

28:57

I've heard you mention before is data minimization.

28:59

Can you explain what that is? Well,

29:02

the idea of data minimization is, it

29:06

begins with an acknowledgement that data breaches

29:08

are very common. We have a data

29:10

breach notification act in Vermont that's been

29:12

in place for 16 years, and the

29:14

notifications come to my office. Little

29:17

Vermont with our 640,000 people,

29:19

we get a data breach notification pretty much

29:21

every day. It's challenging to

29:23

protect yourself from a data breach. So

29:26

acknowledging that doesn't it

29:28

make sense to minimize the data that you

29:31

have. So if there is a data breach,

29:33

there's no harm to them. Data

29:35

minimization is a best practice

29:37

to protect our data from

29:39

potential data breaches. And

29:41

that means you should only collect data

29:44

you need, you should only use

29:46

it for the purpose you were collecting it for a course,

29:48

and you should only store it as long as you need

29:50

it for while it's still out forms from a

29:53

daughter of school. And they asked me for her

29:55

social security number, I'll just leave that blank. And

29:57

I think they're gonna have to beg me for it.

29:59

Why do they need it? her social security number.

30:01

So I don't give data when people

30:03

ask me. When I log on

30:05

to the American Girl Doll website to buy a

30:08

Christmas present and they ask me for my birthday

30:10

to make sure I'm a grown-up, I just make

30:12

up a date. And I always make

30:14

sure I say I'm younger than I am.

30:16

But yeah, I don't give data over and

30:18

then sometimes I'll get an email on some

30:20

random day that's now my birthday. Happy birthday,

30:23

Charity! Would you like to... There's a sale

30:25

on the American Girl Doll. Anyway, so data

30:27

minimization is basically that philosophy. It was codified

30:29

in California a few years ago and I'd

30:31

love Vermont to do the same. I think

30:34

that it helps us all if we

30:36

are acknowledging that best practice, putting it

30:39

in law and then following it.

30:41

When you go to the office of a

30:43

professional, in particular doctors and dentists, they'll ask

30:45

you for your social security number. We

30:47

don't give it. Well, I say you don't need it

30:49

and they say we do and I say no, no,

30:51

no. You need it to find me if I don't

30:53

pay my bill and there's other ways to find me.

30:56

So you have to be Clark

30:58

Kent when it comes to these

31:00

digital entities that want your information. Put the

31:02

glasses on, put the suit on, hide the

31:04

cape. It's none of their business who you

31:06

are. They don't need to know. We've

31:11

heard a lot of stories of people's

31:13

identities being used against them. Everything from

31:15

deep fakes to sextortion. People

31:18

feel scared and people feel like there's no way

31:20

to protect themselves. I

31:22

mean, this is something

31:25

that I have been really

31:27

concerned about. Sextortion, yes,

31:30

but in general there could be

31:32

so many ways that this could

31:34

be damaging for non-consensual pornography in

31:36

that sphere, but also in a

31:38

commercial sphere as well. People

31:40

don't, people in my opinion, there's

31:42

been a lot of focus on use

31:45

of deep fakes in a political context

31:47

for misinformation, election, tampering, stuff

31:49

like that. But I'd love to

31:51

touch on the commercial impacts. I am

31:54

concerned about the potential

31:56

impacts that deep fakes are going to have on

31:58

the marketplace. Remember what Then

32:00

we were younger and new. Bought.

32:02

And sold things on the phone. Some

32:04

will call you when try to sell

32:06

you some say and then robo calls

32:08

came along with are scams and now

32:11

known even answers the phone the in

32:13

fact that Roebuck Falls had. On

32:15

several have tried one.

32:18

Buying and selling on the phone. Was.

32:21

Devastating. The can you imagine.

32:23

Is. The use of good steaks

32:26

like this. Recently The New York Times

32:28

reporting. That. The Taylor Swift. it's

32:30

fake trying to as a phishing scam

32:32

rate on look for say cookware you

32:35

read that or a month. Or two

32:37

ago Tom Hanks I the issue a

32:39

statement saying he this dental company is

32:41

using my image to make a dictator

32:43

try to sell their dental product. That's

32:46

not me, I didn't consent in this.

32:48

I'm not promoting this products imagine of

32:50

stuff like that keeps happening and there

32:52

is this sense of just trust among

32:54

consumers. About buying

32:57

things online. Imagine his.

32:59

Skin deep sake technology had a

33:02

destabilizing impact on the buying and

33:04

selling of things on the internet.

33:07

So. I think. We

33:09

should be. You know, the throwing down

33:11

the red flag to say this needs.

33:13

To be addressed. Because of

33:16

the impacts are potentially devastating.

33:20

Good as an attorney general due to

33:22

to pump the brakes on this kind

33:24

of behavior but it is. It's lawsuit

33:26

based. What is it? Why?

33:30

Would say it's it's two things

33:32

one is on. we at least

33:34

in Vermont. the work really closely

33:36

with our wonderful legislature. And

33:38

in part that's because they are

33:40

a perfect time citizen legislature. So they

33:42

are there. Were. Days a week

33:44

from January to May maybe June. At

33:47

been and they all have a staff of their

33:49

own so with system they share like. a

33:52

bunch of lawyers and each to me has

33:54

a legal assistant they'll have their own team

33:56

then color chips that they don't have a

33:58

policy director they have no voice them. So

34:00

we often will be called in, testify or

34:02

weigh in on bills, have a lot of

34:04

subject matter expertise. So we kind of support

34:06

them in that way. The other is

34:09

trying to pursue action

34:11

against bad actors. Scammers

34:14

are very hard to find. But

34:16

there's a lot between a scammer

34:18

and a legitimate company. We have

34:20

a consumer unit with lawyers who

34:22

pursue actions against bad

34:24

actors, largely using the Consumer

34:27

Protection Act, which forbids unfair

34:29

and accepted acts in commerce. And

34:32

that is a main focus of

34:34

our consumer unit and a tool that we have to fight

34:36

this. There's one other thing that disturbs

34:38

me when you talk about deep fakes. And

34:41

that is a competitor can

34:43

destroy another company by

34:46

simply creating a deep fake of

34:48

the CEO of that company making

34:50

some outrageous statement that

34:53

could cause real harm.

34:55

And how do you fight that? I

34:58

mean, it's not even just having a destabilizing

35:01

impact on like the marketplace, it could literally

35:03

have a disabling impact on the stock market

35:05

for a reason like you just articulate it

35:07

and what guardrails are in place. Because the

35:10

Consumer Protection Act is all it's a great

35:12

law and we use it all the time.

35:15

But it doesn't have those very

35:17

clear guidelines. Thankfully,

35:19

President Biden has put in place his

35:21

executive order relating to AI

35:24

that is going to hopefully do work

35:26

in this arena. And he's also called

35:28

on Congress to take steps in this

35:30

arena. But I don't think any state

35:32

legislature should wait. We should all be

35:34

educating ourselves and acting so that we're

35:36

following the best practices. We're talking about

35:39

the visual deep

35:41

fakes. But there's also audio deep

35:43

fakes, which I find concerning in

35:45

a way they're easier because it's

35:47

just a voice not a voice

35:49

and a phagee. And it

35:51

seems like they're so easy to

35:53

make now that it's really disturbing.

36:03

Listen, I know we've taken an enormous amount

36:05

of your time. We deeply appreciate the time

36:07

you spent with us. Charity, any

36:09

final thoughts before you go? You guys

36:11

probably already talked about this, but I want to talk

36:13

about gift cards because

36:15

gift cards are

36:17

a very common tool that scammers use.

36:19

I'm not talking about an LO being

36:22

gift certificate. I'm talking about those cards

36:24

you get at supermarkets that are like

36:26

Visa. But if someone is

36:28

asking you for a gift card, it's a scam. A

36:31

payment via gift card is absolutely a scam.

36:33

Gift cards are for gifts, the third motto.

36:35

Your listeners probably know that already, but you

36:37

have it there if it's useful to you

36:39

because I think it is really important. It's such

36:41

a common way that people lose money. Again,

36:48

we cannot thank you enough for this. This was

36:50

great. We'll be looking out for all the great

36:52

things that you're going to continue to do in

36:54

Vermont. Well, thank you guys so

36:56

much for having me. This has truly been really fun.

36:58

I love talking about this stuff with people

37:01

who are so knowledgeable about it. It's fun. Great.

37:04

And run for governor, please, so that we

37:06

can get you into the White House. Oh,

37:08

God. I'm not leaving Vermont. It's too nice

37:10

here. See you later. Bye, guys.

37:12

Bye, Charity. Thanks so much. Thank

37:15

you. Bye. Okay,

37:17

guys. That was phenomenal. Now

37:19

it's time for the two of us.

37:22

One. Our

37:29

paranoid take away to keep you safe

37:31

on and offline. Okay. Peter

37:34

Thiel, not my favorite person. I can't believe

37:36

I just said that. Now I'm a dead

37:38

man. Clearview AI is certainly creepy

37:40

technology. I mean, it does have

37:42

its legitimate uses, but the thought of having your likeness

37:45

be indexed and cataloged just it opens up a whole

37:47

lot of cans of worms. Privacy

37:49

worms? Okay, guys. You're

37:52

both grossing me out. But let's just call

37:54

them privacy concerns. I like privacy worms, regardless.

37:56

I think we should go up for some

37:58

tips for... failing Clearview

38:01

AI and other facial recognition

38:03

systems. What do you got? Well,

38:06

you could cover your face with a

38:08

burka or a mama clava, can't you?

38:10

No. Remember Bertillian? So Bertillian was

38:13

this French guy who was an inspector or

38:15

something who figured out how to catalog criminals.

38:17

And it was all just measurements, like the

38:19

length of your elbow to your wrist and

38:21

the distance between your eyes. And these facial

38:23

recognition things work the same way. So if

38:25

your eyes are visible and your mouth is

38:27

visible, they may still be

38:29

able to get you. Strictly speaking, we're sort

38:31

of covering two different questions here. One

38:34

is how to foil facial recognition systems in

38:36

person, and the other is how not to show up

38:38

in Clearview's database. All right, so I'm

38:41

still thinking of this like traffic cameras, can't

38:43

you just like glue a leaf to

38:45

your license plate? Yeah, I mean, for instance, there's

38:47

some really weird makeup you can put on your

38:49

face that can throw off like your phone's facial

38:51

recognition. When it comes to systems like

38:53

Clearview, it's another matter entirely. Like they are very good

38:55

at picking things up. And

38:57

if you're not trying to raise suspicion,

39:00

cubist makeup and beads isn't the way

39:02

to go. I agree. What

39:04

else you got, Travis? Well, there are

39:06

sunglasses that block infrared cameras. And these

39:08

clothing with really weird patterns that can

39:10

throw out facial recognition by breaking up

39:12

your image. So they look hideous,

39:15

but they do have the effect of making a

39:17

camera think they're seeing a giraffe or a dog

39:19

rather than a person. This brings us back to

39:21

the problem of what to do if you're already

39:23

in a facial recognition database. One of the primary

39:25

data sources that they use is from photos posted

39:27

online. So if you have a social media account or

39:30

if you're just in the background of a picture like

39:32

Charity mentioned, and that's been posted online, it's safe to

39:34

assume that you're on the grid. And

39:36

you can't opt out, I'm guessing? Well,

39:38

the EU and states like California

39:40

with privacy legislation require you

39:42

to be able to do it. Yeah, and Clearview.ai does

39:44

have a form you can fill out to get your

39:47

picture removed, but you need to supply an image of

39:49

yourself. And again, if you happen to be caught on

39:51

camera, you go right back to being on their database.

39:54

Also, I don't like

39:56

the idea of having to send a picture of myself to

39:58

get a picture of myself removed. Right.

40:00

What's the message here? People are just

40:03

shit out of luck? Scandalous

40:05

nine-foot. I can't help it.

40:08

It's a shit out of luck moment. Well,

40:10

the message is that it's important for people

40:13

in government like charity to keep working on

40:15

greater privacy protections. And you can do a

40:17

few tricks like the ones we talked about.

40:20

But it's too big for one person to do alone. Also,

40:22

Elizabeth Warren, your buddy, is

40:26

trying to pass a digital version

40:28

of the CFPB which would protect

40:30

people. People's privacy specifically. But right

40:33

now, I think

40:35

we're kind of shit out of luck. And

40:38

that's our tin foil swan. What

40:50

the heck with Adam Levin is a production

40:52

of Loud Tree Media. You can find us

40:54

online at adamlevin.com and on Instagram, Twitter, and

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41:07

Tree.