Episode Transcript
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0:00
The concept of guilt is
0:02
an interesting thing to ponder. Sometimes
0:09
it's justified and rational to
0:12
feel guilty. If a young
0:14
child breaks a rule, but doesn't
0:16
want to admit it and get in trouble, the
0:18
look of guilt might be all over their
0:20
face and easy for a parent to read.
0:24
They did something wrong and they know
0:26
it. Adults
0:29
are often the same way. If you
0:31
do something to offend someone, or
0:33
you knowingly break the law, you
0:35
feel guilty because you are
0:37
guilty. But
0:40
sometimes we feel that way even
0:42
if we haven't done anything wrong.
0:46
This is often the case with veterans
0:48
who have been in war. They're
0:51
fighting shoulder to shoulder on the
0:53
front lines, and one day
0:55
their buddy right next to them gets
0:57
shot. One
0:59
person dies and
1:01
the one who gets to go home feels
1:03
intense guilt about that.
1:07
Or it might be a case where a person is
1:09
drowning, and a stranger jumps
1:11
in the water and saves their life, but
1:14
the stranger ends up drowning. The
1:18
person who was saved is left
1:20
to wonder how to deal with the fact
1:22
that they're alive because someone
1:24
else died. My
1:29
guest today is Haley. When
1:31
she was a teenager, she found herself
1:34
in a dangerous situation
1:37
In the end, she was the only
1:39
witness to two people getting
1:41
murdered right in front of her.
1:45
And those two people were killed while
1:47
they were trying to help keep her safe.
1:50
Real
1:55
people in unreal situations.
1:59
There is a girl hanging by
2:02
her broken leg from the telephone
2:04
wire. And I called nine eleven and
2:07
I said, I found a baby. I turned
2:09
around I see a gun pointed
2:11
at me close enough I could touch it.
2:13
She would hold out that's underwater all the time
2:15
and
2:15
levels the gun pulls the trigger. And
2:18
I go down. Her eyes were
2:20
full of tears. She didn't wanna
2:22
leave us. My hair catches on
2:24
fire. I swear to god, this is this image
2:26
is burning my head rest my life. I'm
2:31
Scott Johnson, and this
2:33
is what was that like.
2:43
You were a teenager when this happened, Are
2:45
you were you kind of a rules follower,
2:48
or were you more like a rebellious teenager?
2:53
Short answer, I was pretty rebellious
2:55
at the time. To
2:57
be honest with you, I hated
2:59
my teenage years. I absolutely
3:02
hated him. And the only thing that really helped
3:04
I feel like at the time was just
3:06
partying, you know, drinking,
3:09
and And that's the only
3:11
way that I could really have
3:13
any kind of enjoyment. How
3:15
old were you when this happened? I
3:17
was seventeen. I know there
3:19
were multiple people involved in
3:21
this situation. Who was there
3:23
or who was part of this? It
3:26
was my sister, Holly, and
3:28
her fiance, Johnny, and then they
3:30
had two roommates, Robert
3:32
and Robin. So there were four
3:34
people living in the house And
3:37
and then there were a few other people that
3:39
came into the story a little later.
3:41
We've got Virgil, who's
3:43
a friend of Robert, and
3:46
Forest was Virgil's cousin, and
3:48
then Gary was a neighbor. So
3:51
a lot of names to keep track of here, but
3:53
we'll we'll mention them as they as
3:55
they come in as part of the story. So,
3:58
Holly and Johnny, your sister
4:00
and and her fiance, We're
4:02
having a fourth of July party at
4:04
their house, but it really started kind
4:06
of the day before. Correct.
4:08
What happened on the third? July
4:11
the third? Well, I had
4:13
gone over there and ended
4:15
up staying the night. It's
4:17
typical fourth of July celebration. You
4:20
start shooting fireworks on the
4:22
third, and it carries on through that,
4:24
you know, that weekend. Usually, I
4:27
have been over at their house just
4:29
partying drinking? And
4:32
so the the next morning,
4:34
late morning or midday, the
4:37
group started drinking again. Yeah.
4:40
It was almost as soon as, you
4:42
know, everybody had gotten up and
4:44
was getting around eating breakfast,
4:46
you know, and and then
4:48
out came the beer at the
4:51
time it was just two point
4:53
beer. So, you know, it
4:55
was like water or we were
4:57
drinking it like water? And then
5:00
Virgil and Forrest showed up probably
5:03
between ten and noon
5:05
And again, Virgil is a friend of one of
5:07
the roommates, Robert. So
5:10
they were just coming over to to join
5:12
the party. Correct. Somebody
5:15
I think it was Robert, had a friend who
5:17
lived in some apartments and that, you
5:19
know, invited us over to go swimming.
5:22
However, we were
5:24
told to leave from the management because
5:27
Virgil was so belligerent. He
5:29
was stowing lawn chairs
5:31
into the swimming pool and just
5:33
causing all kinds of chaos. And
5:35
we were trying to calm him down
5:38
So he was the one that really made me
5:40
the most uneasy at the time.
5:42
So you're in a group. Obviously,
5:44
you know your sister and her fiance
5:48
how well did you know these other people?
5:50
Well, I didn't know Robert for that
5:52
long. Robin, I had
5:54
gone out with on a date
5:57
kind of sorta set up by Johnny.
5:59
And then I believe they worked together
6:02
at a glass company. I
6:05
probably knew them
6:07
for a couple of months.
6:09
So not close friends, but sort
6:11
of acquaintances. Right. Right.
6:15
We went back to the house. They
6:18
were sitting around the dining
6:20
room table, playing cards, drinking
6:22
beer for a little while. I
6:24
know later that evening, we had made
6:26
plans to go down to Riverside
6:29
Drive, which runs alongside the
6:31
Arkansas here in Tulsa.
6:33
We were gonna watch the fireworks
6:35
show from there. My
6:38
mom had dropped my brother off
6:41
and he was six years old at the time.
6:43
So we were babysitting
6:45
him. We
6:47
ate dinner at some point.
6:49
We
6:50
were going to watch a fireworks show
6:52
that they have, like, every year.
6:55
And so I I
6:57
remember we were fighting
7:00
to find a place to park We
7:02
ended up standing on
7:04
a sidewalk along some apartments, and
7:07
there were just so many people down
7:09
there, you know, to watch a fireworks show.
7:13
Forrest had picked up my brother at
7:15
one time and put him up on his shoulders.
7:18
Even as we were leaving the
7:20
event, I remember him
7:22
carrying my brother on his shoulders.
7:25
When your mom dropped your little brother
7:27
off, like you said, he's only six years old,
7:29
you think she had any concerns
7:31
about the group that she was
7:33
kind of entrusting your little brother too
7:36
with the drinking and drugs and
7:38
stuff like that, all that was going on at that time?
7:40
Or did she know about it? I think
7:42
she knew that we had been
7:44
drinking beer. She didn't think that I
7:46
was. Of course, you know. She probably
7:48
knew, but I'm just trying to hide
7:50
it. Because I was underage. So
7:53
I think my sister convinced her
7:55
that everything was okay
7:58
there. I
8:01
think there might have been some fireworks
8:04
that we shot off there for a
8:06
little bit But for the most part,
8:08
everybody was kind of winding down.
8:10
We had been drinking since
8:12
noon, so everybody was getting kind of
8:14
tired and was somewhere between
8:17
eleven and midnight at night.
8:20
Gary showed up at some point
8:22
after we had gotten back from the firework
8:24
show. And he's a a nearby neighbor.
8:27
Yeah. He lived up the street at some apartments.
8:30
And we talked for a little bit,
8:33
and then I
8:36
agreed to run up to the corner
8:38
store with him and get some some
8:40
more beer. So we
8:42
bought beer, But instead of
8:44
going back to my sister's house, we went
8:46
to his apartment. We ended
8:48
up just sitting around talking at his
8:50
apartment for a little bit. And then I told him, you know, I was
8:52
getting kind tired. I wanna go back
8:54
to my sister's house and
8:56
make sure everything was okay. For some
8:58
reason, I felt you know, responsible
9:01
for anything that might
9:03
have happened if they went to bed or whatever.
9:05
Was your little brother still
9:07
there? No. Sorry.
9:09
We dropped him off
9:11
at my mom's house
9:13
on the way back to my my
9:15
sister's
9:15
house, Holly's house. Yeah.
9:18
Pretty late night for a six year old.
9:19
Yeah. And it was by the time we
9:22
got out of the traffic and
9:24
everything pretty close to
9:26
to midnight, so we had
9:28
dropped him off already.
9:31
We went back to the house. Whenever
9:33
I walked in, I
9:35
noticed that Robert was asleep on the
9:37
couch right next to the front door,
9:40
and then Forest was setting up.
9:42
But there was no sign of his cousin,
9:44
Virgil. Someone
9:47
asked, like, where's Virgil?
9:49
And he said he took
9:50
off, he was tired, And
9:52
I thought it was kind of odd that he
9:54
would stick around after,
9:56
you know, him
9:59
not really, I mean, meeting everybody for
10:01
the first day. Although we did spend,
10:03
like, the entire day with
10:06
him, I was, like, you don't
10:08
really know anybody here. His
10:10
connection to the group has left.
10:12
Have sinus. Yeah. That does seem a little
10:14
awkward. Yeah. Yeah.
10:17
But I I think you're just
10:19
kinda trusting, you
10:21
know, that he's not
10:23
shady. And
10:25
so we me,
10:27
Gary, and Forrest, set over
10:29
the dining room table, which
10:31
was just off of the living room, of course.
10:33
And we said they're talking
10:36
at one point, Robert got up from
10:38
the couch and went to his room.
10:40
And then we were laughing
10:44
loud because I know Johnny
10:46
asked us to keep it down at
10:48
one point. And Gary
10:51
at some point mentioned going
10:53
to Keystone Lake And I thought
10:56
this is not a good time to be at
10:58
Keystone Lake in the middle of the, you
11:00
know, morning. How far away
11:02
was Keystone Lake? And why would he wanna
11:04
go there? It was
11:06
in West Tulsa, and so
11:08
it was probably a good
11:10
thirty minute drive out if
11:12
not more from where we
11:14
were. And, yeah, again,
11:17
I thought it was kind of odd that he would mention
11:19
that hindsight
11:22
I believe that he was trying to get us
11:24
out without causing
11:26
too much suspicion because
11:29
through the conversation that we were having.
11:32
And, you know, I didn't think anything of it at
11:34
the time that it that
11:36
forest would take me off
11:39
kinda separate me from Gary. And
11:42
he would say stuff like, you know,
11:44
I feel really close to you. I feel
11:46
like we're connecting you're
11:48
you're like a sister to me.
11:51
And I just figured, okay, you're drunk.
11:53
Go home. You know? And
11:55
I would just kinda yeah. Yeah. You
11:57
know, and and try to walk away
11:59
real smooth. He
12:01
tried kissing me a few times and I'd turn
12:03
my head or you know, kind of
12:05
leaned back away from him, not
12:07
letting allowing that connection as
12:10
it got later and later. I I know
12:12
that Gary was picking up on his odd
12:15
behavior. And
12:17
he kind of waited for Forrest
12:19
to walk away. And
12:21
he said, I really think that you need
12:23
to come to my apartment and stay
12:25
because it's not I don't
12:27
feel you're safe with him here.
12:30
And Right. Because Gary was
12:32
probably thinking about leaving anyway,
12:34
right? Because he lived nearby. Yeah.
12:37
I mean, the sun was coming up at this
12:39
time. We'd been up all night.
12:42
We had kinda quit drinking throughout
12:44
the conversation. And so
12:46
I was tired. I'd been up all
12:48
night. I was really tired. And
12:51
I thought, well, okay. If this
12:53
if this solves the problem and gets me
12:55
in, you know, some
12:56
sleep, will do it. And
12:58
were you comfortable with Gary
13:00
going and sleeping at his house?
13:02
Or were there any implications in
13:05
that offer?
13:06
He said that I
13:08
could crash on his bed. He would sleep on the
13:10
couch. There was nothing that he expected
13:12
out of this. Now,
13:14
but again, he just reassured me. He said,
13:16
I really don't feel safe leading
13:18
you here with with this guy
13:21
because his odd behavior.
13:24
So I felt safer with him
13:26
and the fact that he was looking out for
13:28
me, then what
13:30
I would have, you know, staying
13:33
there. Yeah. You're both kinda creeped out by
13:35
this third guy. Yeah. I mean, we were
13:37
having a good time. And then all of a sudden, it
13:39
just started getting weird So as
13:43
as we were getting ready to leave,
13:45
I was facing
13:47
Gary. Gary's back was against
13:49
the front room, the
13:51
front door. And
13:53
all I noticed was Forest coming up
13:55
behind him. And then all of a sudden,
13:57
he swung his arm up over his
13:59
head. And I
14:01
thought, what is he got? And
14:03
about, you know, the time that I'm
14:05
thinking this he's
14:07
bringing this hammer down on the back
14:09
of Gary's head,
14:13
then just real quickly,
14:15
he just does it down on the table,
14:18
grabs the hold of me by the neck,
14:20
and takes me around the
14:22
corner into a very small
14:24
kitchen. I mean, my mind
14:26
just disconnected as
14:28
soon as he hit
14:30
Gary and Gary just crumbled to
14:32
the floor. I I
14:35
couldn't think. I don't think I had a
14:37
thought. My mind just went
14:39
blank. I I
14:41
just kept on saying, you
14:44
hurt Gary. We need to check on Gary
14:46
as he's taken me around
14:48
the corner. At that
14:50
point, I thought I've I've gotta get away
14:52
from this. And I thought
14:54
if I could get him to focus on
14:56
Gary, that he would let me
14:58
go. And, you
15:00
know, for some strange reason,
15:02
I
15:03
you know, not thinking logically
15:05
I thought that he would care.
15:08
You know? I thought that he would
15:10
he would want to check on Gary.
15:12
Well, it it seems like it it's something
15:14
that just happened so quickly
15:16
and unexpectedly. It did.
15:18
That you you didn't have time to
15:20
process everything. Yeah.
15:23
And I think I just kinda
15:25
detached at that
15:27
point, but I must
15:29
have been yelling he
15:31
punched me a few times on
15:33
the left side of my face. He had me
15:35
pressed up against his counter,
15:38
and he held
15:40
this knife up to my face, which
15:43
he got out of a butcher block that was
15:46
right next to us. Pulled this
15:48
knife out, held it up to my face,
15:50
and said I want you. And then
15:52
he said it down on the counter
15:54
and just slug me a few times
15:56
in the face and I
15:58
kept, you know, I was yelling at that
16:00
point. I remember saying
16:03
something but the words
16:05
were incoherent as to
16:07
it, you know, like my brain and my mouth
16:09
weren't connecting. Why does
16:11
he started to take his third
16:13
swing, Johnny walked
16:15
around the corner, and
16:17
I thought, okay. Everything's okay.
16:21
And he grabs for
16:23
us by the arm. And the
16:25
last words that Johnny spoke was,
16:27
hey, man, be cool. As
16:30
he was grabbing his
16:32
arm for us, brought his hand
16:34
down, grabbed the knife, and then
16:36
just stabbed Johnny in
16:38
one motion. And
16:41
it went in so deep. I didn't
16:43
even see the blade
16:44
anymore. All I saw was the handle.
16:46
And so I really didn't know the
16:48
extent
16:49
because it didn't make sense what I was
16:52
saying, and then he just
16:54
slid it across his midsection. And
16:56
at that point, Johnny
17:00
jerked his hand and pushed
17:03
forest, and then he just
17:05
grabbed his stomach and went out the kitchen
17:07
door. You
17:10
know, at that point, mind was like,
17:12
get away. And so with,
17:14
I guess, the adrenaline
17:17
everything that I had, I pushed
17:19
forest off of me. How big
17:21
of a guy was
17:23
forest? Forest was over
17:25
six foot and close to three hundred
17:27
pounds, if not, three hundred pounds.
17:29
I mean, he was a big guy.
17:33
I think it was desperation, and
17:35
I knew that Gary was hurt.
17:38
And Johnny was
17:40
hurt. So I just followed the
17:42
path that I figured,
17:44
you know, Johnny went. And
17:47
whenever I ran out of the kitchen, I
17:49
ran, you know, directly
17:51
into the front room past
17:53
Robert. Robert was standing outside
17:55
his bedroom door
17:57
at the
17:58
time. Because of the commotion, you know?
18:01
And I saw
18:03
Johnny Ling on Robert's
18:04
bed, and so I
18:07
grabbed Johnny by
18:08
his hand, and I yanked him into the
18:10
bathroom, which was joined between
18:12
the two bedrooms. My Johnny
18:15
and Hollies bedroom on one side, and
18:17
then Robert on the other. And so I
18:19
locked both both bathroom
18:21
doors with these little
18:23
hooks. And
18:25
I popped Johnny
18:27
up on the toilet and just cradled
18:29
his head in my hand saying it's
18:31
gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay.
18:34
I kept assuring him.
18:36
I was trying to assure myself,
18:38
I think, too, that everything was
18:40
gonna be okay. And I
18:42
can remember looking down at
18:45
Johnny's stomach and
18:47
his his intestines were
18:49
out of his stomach.
18:52
And I thought if I just put, you know,
18:54
push them back in, that
18:57
would make him, you know,
18:59
better. I mean, that it
19:01
would be better. It sounds like for
19:03
all that's happened, you sort
19:05
of had a continued
19:08
sense of denial like,
19:10
if if we just do this, it's all gonna
19:12
be okay. Yes.
19:14
I was in complete shock.
19:16
But, yeah, denial was, like, I
19:18
was trying to
19:20
minimize everything that
19:23
happened. You know, my mind was,
19:25
I think, trying
19:26
to reason, but at the same
19:29
time, like, minimize what
19:31
was going on so that
19:33
I, you know, I
19:36
could make sense of it, I
19:38
guess. So you're trying to
19:40
hold his intestines in?
19:43
Yes. I was trying to push him back in
19:45
his stomach and then
19:47
my sister came and knocked at
19:49
her side of the
19:50
bathroom. You know, she was in
19:52
her room. And she knocked at the
19:55
door and she
19:57
said something to me and I said,
19:59
well, four is still out
20:01
there. We were whispering through
20:03
the door, and she said, no, he's
20:06
gone. And so I let her
20:08
in and I went out And
20:10
then at that time, my
20:13
dog started following
20:15
me around the
20:16
house. I picked up
20:19
the hammer.
20:19
And I was angry. And I
20:21
was also afraid that forest
20:23
was still around. And
20:27
so I know Robert had been on the phone
20:29
calling the police, and
20:31
I I went out
20:33
on the front porch. And I
20:35
was like, looking, I could hear the
20:38
sirens, but there was no sign. And
20:40
these people that were walking up the
20:42
sidewalk, I was like, Where's the police?
20:44
Where's the police? And they
20:46
just looked at me like, we
20:48
don't know. I mean,
20:50
it was they had no
20:52
clue what just happened in that
20:54
house. And so
20:56
I I went back in and
20:58
I was still, like,
21:00
I checked the door to see if I could
21:02
see forest. The back
21:05
door had been opened. Well,
21:07
the inside door was standing open and,
21:09
you know, the screen door, it looked
21:11
like, had been hit or
21:14
something. It was cracked. And
21:17
so I went back through the house
21:20
and the police finally arrived. And
21:22
whenever they came in, they said, ma'am, you're
21:24
gonna have to put the hammer down.
21:26
And so I I remember putting the
21:28
hammer down, and I went over and I
21:30
I shook Gary, and
21:32
I was like, Gary, Gary, get
21:34
up. And the policeman that was standing
21:37
beside him
21:38
said, ma'am, you can't do anything
21:40
to help him.
21:42
I know that Gary was on his side
21:44
whenever I shook him, and he just
21:46
kinda rolled over to his back.
21:49
And his eyes went up to the back of his head.
21:51
And I remember seeing
21:53
the puddle of blood that was beside
21:56
his head as I got
21:58
up. But again, it
22:00
wasn't alarming. I
22:02
mean, I think at that time, I had
22:04
just detached from all
22:06
all feelings, all
22:09
emotions. Like, I was freaking out,
22:11
I was mad, I was raging, but I
22:13
hadn't had really a time
22:15
process it. If
22:18
you haven't checked
22:20
out the compulsive storyteller
22:23
podcast yet, What are you waiting
22:25
for? I subscribed to the show a
22:27
while back as soon as I discovered it.
22:29
Since then, I've gotten to know the host,
22:32
Greg Lefebvre. And he's not just a wonderful
22:34
person, he's also a great storyteller.
22:36
We're a good match. He loves to tell
22:38
stories and I love to listen to
22:41
them. Greg tells a short personal story in
22:43
every episode about something that
22:45
actually happened in his
22:47
life. And he just has to tell someone.
22:49
He has to get it out there. In
22:51
fact, his therapist once told him that his storytelling isn't
22:54
just an interest. With
22:56
Greg, it's a compulsion. A
22:58
compulsion to connect with other people through
23:01
stories. That's why he chose to name the
23:03
podcast, the compulsive storyteller.
23:06
I really enjoyed a recent episode which was
23:08
called Movers Lament. This was
23:10
about the time Greg and his girlfriend decided
23:12
to start a moving business
23:15
But some of the jobs they hired for were kind
23:17
of wacky, and eventually they were thinking,
23:19
is this really worth what were
23:22
being paid? The episodes are just five to
23:24
twenty minutes long and you can go back
23:26
into the back catalog and pick a title to
23:28
start with. But also, make sure
23:30
you subscribe scribe so you get all the new
23:32
episodes as soon as they come out.
23:34
That's what I do, so I always get the newest
23:36
one when it gets released. You
23:38
can find it on any podcast app including
23:41
Spotify. Just search for the
23:43
compulsive storyteller, or just
23:45
visit the website the compulsive
23:47
storyteller dot com. And
23:49
thanks to the compulsive storyteller
23:51
podcast for sponsoring this episode.
23:58
Police said, ma'am, you're gonna have to pick your dog
24:00
up because every time you
24:02
know, I was pacing back and forth. And
24:04
every time we went by one of the police
24:06
officers, my dog would growl at him, but
24:08
he stayed right by my
24:10
side. And so I I off
24:12
in Holly's room.
24:14
They told my sister,
24:17
you're gonna have to calm her
24:19
down. So she got me and she
24:21
said, we need to come over here and sit down
24:23
for a minute.
24:24
I was just really upset
24:28
cringing a most. I mean, if that
24:30
makes sense. The
24:33
police wanted to take us downtown to
24:35
get statements And
24:37
so it was Robert Holly
24:40
and myself loaded us
24:42
up in the police
24:43
car while we were sitting in the police
24:46
car, they were loading they
24:48
brought Johnny out and loaded him up in
24:50
the
24:50
ambulance, but they had to get him stable
24:54
before they could move
24:55
him. I don't know what that meant at
24:58
the time because I I don't
25:00
think he was ever stable. But
25:02
he went to Hillcrest Hospital,
25:05
and we went downtown to
25:07
to give police reports.
25:11
I was the main witness that
25:13
saw everything.
25:15
I was involved in everything.
25:17
I kept on getting Gary's
25:20
name wrong, kept on calling him
25:22
Carrie or maybe that's what they heard
25:24
because, again, I was so
25:26
hysterical. Yeah. You're I can't imagine your
25:28
state of mind at that time. I mean,
25:31
you were running on adrenaline, I'm
25:34
sure, for a certain amount of time, and you had no
25:36
sleep at all that night. And now you've
25:38
gotta try to remember everything
25:40
for a police statement. That's just
25:42
gotta be so stressful.
25:45
Right. And again, like, my mind had
25:47
just that's the only way that I can
25:49
describe it is that I
25:51
detached my mind quit working.
25:53
So my thought process,
25:55
it just felt like I I
25:57
was just one step
25:59
behind everything. Like, I I, you know,
26:02
And it came out later, like,
26:04
from the police station, they took
26:06
his home, and I got a
26:08
little bit of sleep. But
26:11
my sister woke me
26:13
up to go and see Johnny in
26:15
the hospital. And when
26:17
we were sitting in the hospital, we
26:20
were kind of talking over a little
26:22
bit of what happened then
26:25
and she had made a comment to
26:27
me. And, you know, we were getting a lot of
26:29
the information of what was going on
26:31
with Johnny second
26:32
hand, like they would tell his mom and then
26:35
she would tell us.
26:36
So by some we had gotten there,
26:39
he had already been through
26:41
surgery. In fact, I think he was
26:43
still in surgery. And my sister
26:45
had made a comment. She
26:47
said, well, if you hadn't moved him,
26:50
off of the bed, he wouldn't have lost as
26:52
much blood. And
26:55
so that kind of stuck with me
26:57
as like it was my fault
27:00
that he was losing blood. We
27:03
started comparing what had
27:05
taken place. And whenever I had
27:07
ran out of the
27:07
kitchen, I ran past my sister like
27:10
she was standing right at the doorway and
27:12
I said I didn't see you. I
27:14
don't remember running past
27:17
her but she said I was standing
27:19
right there and then Forest came to
27:21
the doorway and still had the
27:23
knife in his hand. And she
27:25
said he was talking to the
27:27
knife. And he said, I told you not to
27:29
mess with me. And then she said,
27:31
he just turned around and went out the back
27:34
door. Honestly, I
27:36
vaguely remember running Pest Robert.
27:38
And so I feel like at the
27:40
time, I was just like,
27:42
my mind not catch up with everything that
27:45
had taken place. Everything
27:48
was so surreal. I
27:50
was in a haze. It seemed like for the
27:53
next week, just
27:55
trying to make this
27:58
a reality. So Gary
28:01
died at the scene. Is that
28:03
right? Correct. The other
28:05
kind of odd aspect
28:07
of this is that there was still
28:09
another person in the house,
28:11
which is the other roommate,
28:14
Robin, and he slept through the
28:16
whole thing. When did he
28:18
realize, like, did he just walk
28:20
out his door and there's a house full
28:22
of police in a crime
28:24
scene? Yeah. In
28:26
fact, we had actually forgot about
28:29
Robin. I mean, you know,
28:31
everything that had gone on,
28:33
we didn't realized that he was still
28:35
up there or that he was up there because he
28:37
lived off of the dining room
28:39
of some stairs in,
28:41
like, a second floor room, and
28:44
he had his own bathroom up
28:46
there, I believe. We had
28:49
forgot that he was up there whenever
28:51
the police took us.
28:54
And so from
28:56
his account, he had come down the
28:58
stairs and opened the door in a house
29:00
full of policeman and
29:02
investigators. And
29:05
so I remember watching it on the
29:07
news. He got so upset
29:10
because the the news
29:12
report was him being
29:14
brought out of the house escorted
29:16
by police and put into a police
29:18
car, and it looked like he
29:20
was the one that did it. You know?
29:22
And so I remember him being
29:24
upset about that. What a way
29:26
to wake up?
29:28
Yeah. One of the things you found
29:30
out later was that at the
29:32
time of the attack, you
29:35
were pregnant.
29:36
Yes. I had started
29:40
having symptoms, can
29:42
figure out what was going on. And
29:44
I thought, you know, somebody,
29:47
I I believe it was my mom at the
29:49
time, said something about, you
29:51
know, stress
29:54
from this
29:54
incident. So she took me to
29:57
her doctor,
29:59
and I found out Ben
30:01
that I was pregnant
30:03
And I I was probably
30:06
about three months maybe,
30:09
so it made that
30:11
you
30:11
know, that Johnny saved this baby
30:14
and didn't even know it. And you
30:15
didn't even know it at the
30:18
time? Yeah. I didn't. I
30:20
had had just a a brief
30:23
relationship with this person.
30:25
His name is David.
30:28
And I wasn't real
30:30
crazy about the guy. It was
30:32
just a fluke thing, but
30:35
whenever I found out I was pregnant, I
30:38
thought that, you know, I had to have this
30:40
baby. I mean, Johnny saved this baby.
30:42
He saved me, and he's
30:44
saved the baby. I mean, it was my mindset
30:46
at the time. My
30:49
mom asked me, like,
30:51
what are you gonna do? I
30:53
mean, she gave me very
30:55
little support and no options.
30:57
And so the only thing that I
31:00
saw doing was, well, I need to tell the dad
31:02
that he's gonna be a dad and
31:05
go from there. I think
31:07
at the time, I was dealing
31:10
with the PTSD. Unfortunately,
31:12
there wasn't a name for it
31:14
at the time. No
31:17
one really consulted or or
31:20
talked to me about seeking
31:23
help. I think any
31:25
kind of counseling at that time was for people
31:28
who could afford it out of pocket
31:30
expense because it wasn't really covered
31:32
by the insurance. I didn't have
31:34
insurance. I was dealing with
31:36
a lot of things that no
31:38
one would really talk to me about.
31:40
My mom had asked me
31:43
at some point, you know, exactly
31:45
what had happened. And I don't know that I
31:47
was really ready to talk about it with
31:50
anybody, but I gave her,
31:52
you know, kind of
31:54
a summary of of what
31:56
had taken place. And her
31:59
comment at the time was, well, if
32:01
you'd come home with me, this would not have
32:03
taken place. It wouldn't
32:05
have happened. And then
32:07
she just kind of, you know, made
32:09
this motion with her
32:11
hand and, like, oh,
32:13
well, what is done is done. It
32:15
seemed like people wanted
32:18
to talk about it less and less.
32:20
You know? Maybe they saw that
32:22
it upset me somehow
32:25
but I just didn't get a lot
32:27
of support. At a time
32:29
when you really needed it. Yeah.
32:33
I mean, you were dealing with a
32:35
lot of stuff, not to mention
32:37
the fact that Forest
32:39
was still out there. Right? He hadn't
32:41
been caught right away, and you were the only
32:44
witness that would be able to testify
32:46
that you saw what he
32:47
did. Correct.
32:49
I was so hyper vigilant. It's
32:53
not even funny. I was
32:54
I got to where I was afraid to leave
32:57
my house. And if
32:59
I did, it was, you
33:01
know, constantly checking over my shoulder.
33:03
It wasn't too long
33:05
after that that I moved out
33:08
of my mom's house to move in
33:11
with David. When I
33:13
told him I was pregnant, he
33:15
assured me, well, we'll just have
33:18
this baby, and we'll take good care of it,
33:20
and we'll raise it together, and, you
33:22
know, everything will just be peachy
33:25
king. And this probably
33:27
wasn't his words, but I
33:29
just felt like I was just
33:31
following along with whatever
33:33
I could feel
33:35
good about at the
33:35
time. Like, okay, that sounds
33:37
good. We'll we'll have this baby. But it
33:40
was a very toxic
33:42
relationship And I think it
33:44
just heightened the anxiety
33:48
that I was experiencing at the
33:50
time. He was not a very
33:51
compassionate person?
33:54
How long before Forest
33:57
was actually found
33:59
It was early nineteen
34:02
eighty eight. We got word that
34:04
he had been in
34:06
jail in Virginia. Funny
34:09
thing about this was that it had aired on
34:11
America's most wanted. I
34:13
guess it was
34:15
the end of eighty
34:18
seven because
34:18
it was, you know, still
34:21
a manhunt for this person. For
34:24
forest. And so early
34:26
nineteen eighty
34:26
eight, we got word that he
34:28
had been found in Virginia and that
34:31
they were holding him in
34:33
jail So this was two years
34:35
later.
34:35
Yeah. Two years later, and
34:38
I was a mom, and I was trying to
34:40
deal with figuring out
34:42
how to be a mom
34:44
and how to deal with
34:46
PTSD. And
34:48
again, didn't know everything that I was going through at the time,
34:51
the irritation, the
34:53
irritability, the anger, the
34:56
rage, the hyper vigilance,
34:58
everything was a symptom
35:01
of PTSD. And
35:03
the person that I
35:05
was he loved to argue. And so
35:07
that's why I say it was a
35:10
very bad toxic relationship.
35:12
First of all, I don't
35:15
think I was in the right mindset to
35:17
to have a baby, to
35:20
try to be raising this
35:22
child in a
35:24
healthy
35:24
environment. Along with
35:26
somebody who fought and argued
35:30
constantly.
35:30
Now, two years after right
35:33
before my daughter turned to, they started
35:35
well, they had subpoenaed
35:38
me to
35:39
start these proceedings
35:42
they were going to extradite him back sometime in
35:45
July.
35:45
So it it was most of
35:48
eighty eight
35:50
that was dealing with this rehatching of,
35:52
you know, this event? Obviously,
35:54
he was charged with murder.
35:58
Yes. Two counts of murder.
36:00
And how did he plead?
36:02
Well, he had pleaded guilty.
36:04
In fact, one of the news
36:07
articles, his defense, was nobody saying that he did
36:09
not do it. He admitted
36:11
to killing the two
36:14
people, but his
36:16
defense was that, well,
36:18
first of all, they tried to say it was due
36:20
to all the drinking and
36:22
alcohol and drugs that
36:24
were involved.
36:24
I remember
36:25
them wanting to shut that down really
36:28
quick because the prosecuting
36:30
attorney had said that he
36:32
had made
36:34
you know, a bull's eye with both victims accurately.
36:37
I mean, he hit with the
36:39
hammer and stabbed with the
36:41
knife, and there was
36:43
contacts with both times, but
36:45
they also tried to say that
36:48
he could contribute to
36:50
society and
36:52
his art. In his
36:54
poem writing. So those were
36:56
the two defenses that he was going
36:58
on. Both sound pretty
37:00
weak. Yeah. Did you find
37:02
yourself in a courtroom
37:04
with forest being in the same
37:06
room? Yes.
37:08
When I had to give
37:10
I think it was for the hearing that
37:14
they brought him into
37:16
the courtroom me
37:19
and my sister were setting side by side, holding hands,
37:21
like I gripped her
37:23
hand so hard. Whenever
37:26
I saw him, I noticed
37:28
that he had lost a lot
37:30
of weight. Like, he was down
37:33
under two hundred pounds. It
37:35
was shocking to see that.
37:38
That was one of the things
37:40
the attorney had told me was
37:42
that we're gonna
37:44
have to remind the jurors of his weight loss and
37:46
how big he was. So that was one of
37:48
the things that I
37:50
had to because
37:52
this little man could not press me
37:54
against a counter like that and
37:56
then proceed to stab
37:58
somebody too. Yeah. Being on
38:00
the run, looking over your
38:02
shoulder for two years,
38:04
that's gotta be I mean, I'm sure a lot
38:06
of that weight loss was just from the
38:08
stress. You do lose weight on the run. That's for sure.
38:10
You found out more about him.
38:12
Right? During the trial, yes.
38:17
One of the things that they had pictures
38:20
of was knives that
38:23
he had put in the furniture. Like, they had
38:25
a cushion raised up and they had a picture of
38:27
a knife that he had planted in
38:30
the couch. In
38:32
which Robert was sleeping on. There was
38:35
other knives that they had
38:37
taken pictures of like strategically
38:40
placed around the front room. And
38:42
this wasn't even his house. Right.
38:45
Did he do that
38:48
without anyone noticing? I guess when everybody when
38:50
me and Gary had left to the
38:52
store, he
38:55
started doing this as people were going
38:57
to bed because Holly and Johnny went
38:59
to bed shortly after
39:02
me and Gary had left to the store to get
39:04
beer
39:05
And, you know, Robert was passed out on the
39:08
couch. Robin was upstairs in
39:10
his room.
39:10
Yeah. He had just taken it
39:13
upon himself. He certainly can't deny
39:15
premeditation when he plants knives all around
39:17
the place. Howard Bauchner: Exactly. That was the
39:19
other thing where with the
39:21
drugs and alcohol, they were
39:23
saying there was no way that he could
39:26
plan this out, you know, that it
39:28
could be premeditated. So And
39:30
he had been in
39:31
prison before he had, and that was the other thing out
39:34
during the trial. Well,
39:36
actually, we found that
39:38
out in the newspaper clippings.
39:42
That he had been in prison
39:44
for the rape of a
39:46
telequal
39:47
woman, and he
39:48
was supposed to be serving a twenty
39:52
year sentence, but he got out on good behavior.
39:54
He was serving a twenty year sentence,
39:56
but how long was he actually in?
40:00
Eight years. How
40:01
long have he been out when you met him?
40:02
Two. He was out for two years. And
40:06
so when we were
40:08
doing the trial, the jury was
40:10
given two options for
40:12
sentencing. They were given
40:15
given life
40:16
which I believe would have
40:19
given him the possibility
40:22
of parole and
40:24
then there was death. So those were the only two
40:26
sentences the judge gave, the
40:28
jurors. There was another sentence
40:34
It was life without possible
40:37
parole. They
40:38
weren't given that because the
40:41
crime had happened before it
40:44
had been voted into
40:45
legislation? The jurors
40:48
thought that there is no way
40:51
we can allow this person
40:53
out on parole
40:55
again due to his
40:58
past record. That he would just
41:00
do it again so they
41:01
had to give him
41:01
death. I had
41:03
to give my testimony
41:06
two times
41:08
the the preliminary and the actual
41:10
hearing in front of the jury.
41:13
And I could
41:16
not make eye contact at all with
41:17
Forrest. I had to sit there with my
41:19
head down. I can
41:21
look at him. So he
41:23
was sentenced to death.
41:25
Yes. And
41:26
I thought
41:27
it was the end.
41:28
I thought I gave
41:31
Johnny justice, and he was going
41:33
to serve his consequence,
41:36
and that would be that.
41:40
So I was just from trying to my life back
41:43
in order the best that
41:45
I could. And
41:48
then they contacted
41:50
us again, and they
41:52
said that they had ordered a
41:55
rehearing, a retrial, Because of the sentence that
41:58
the judge at the time did not
42:00
give the jury, that was
42:02
his first appeal
42:04
was that they found that
42:06
technicality and
42:08
they had contacted me and I
42:10
went down and talked to him And
42:12
they
42:13
said, we just need your testimony. the only one
42:15
that matters. And I just
42:17
can't do it.
42:21
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42:25
host of obscura,
42:28
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Obscura True Crime and you
43:37
can't miss our logo. I
43:45
had
43:48
had another baby. So I was a
43:50
mom of two and
43:52
I was just trying to get my life back into
43:54
order and I just didn't think that I could
43:58
remember everything that was crucial at
44:00
the time. I had
44:02
started repressing a
44:04
lot of you know, the
44:06
memories of it, you know,
44:08
and So you just declined
44:10
to testify? I declined to
44:12
testify and and
44:14
he did get removed from the death
44:16
penalty, and they gave him life
44:18
without possible
44:19
parole. So he's still in prison
44:21
today? He's still in
44:24
prison. It strikes me as, you know, you had
44:27
Holly had commented that
44:29
Johnny lost more blood
44:31
because you moved him And
44:33
your mom reminded you that you should have gone home
44:35
with her that night and none of this would
44:37
have happened. But on top
44:40
of that, What about
44:42
survivor's guilt? I mean, these
44:44
two people that were murdered were
44:46
just trying to help you all
44:49
of that guilt must have just
44:51
been
44:51
crushing. It played a big
44:54
part
44:56
and how I moved forward.
44:58
I I carried a
45:00
very very heavy load of
45:03
of guilt and time,
45:06
you know, I thought about the
45:08
fact that he saved this baby
45:11
without even knowing it. It
45:14
seems so irrational for
45:16
the fact that I just hated
45:18
life so much at that time.
45:21
But yet they saved my
45:24
life for some reason. I
45:26
just
45:27
couldn't understand why
45:29
I was able to walk away
45:31
and they weren't. This was
45:34
obviously an extremely
45:36
traumatic event did you ever
45:38
get counseling that helped
45:40
you process that? I did
45:42
not. I
45:46
I
45:49
think whenever I was
45:51
going through my
45:53
divorce, I went to counseling for that
45:56
because I felt like a lot
45:58
of what I was dealing
46:00
with at that time was because
46:02
of the
46:03
divorce. And I just briefly mentioned this
46:06
as, like,
46:08
this is
46:09
something that happened to me in my
46:11
past and that my counselor at the
46:14
time never touched base on
46:16
it. So
46:18
I had developed a lot of
46:21
anxiety and
46:22
depression, poor
46:26
coping skills which led
46:28
to bad decisions
46:29
and everything down the
46:32
down the line. But
46:35
I never got counseling for
46:37
it? As we speak now,
46:39
we're toward the end of
46:41
twenty twenty two. How do you
46:43
feel like you're doing
46:46
now? Well,
46:50
I know that time isn't
46:51
always a healer.
46:54
And
46:55
if you
46:58
Well, for me,
47:01
not dealing with
47:04
something is
47:06
probably just as bad.
47:11
As going through it
47:14
almost. Because
47:16
whenever it does resurface, it seems like
47:18
it resurface with
47:19
vengeance. There's a
47:20
there's a lot that
47:22
I have thought
47:23
about over the last couple
47:26
weeks that
47:28
I hadn't really thought about in
47:30
years. I feel like
47:33
since
47:33
I was able
47:35
to forgive for us early
47:38
on that it has
47:41
helped me move
47:43
on from the trauma
47:45
I never reached out to him,
47:48
and I've never personally
47:50
sent him any acknowledgement
47:54
of forgiveness. But
47:56
in my own heart, I know that
47:58
I can forgive
48:01
that not so much that it releases from
48:04
consequence that he
48:06
has
48:06
to deal with. It it didn't take
48:09
away his punishment.
48:12
But it gave me peace. I
48:14
can only say
48:15
that I found that because
48:18
of I I
48:20
know that we are
48:21
in a very broken
48:24
world and that people
48:27
come from circumstances that sometimes
48:29
they have no control
48:32
over. One of his
48:33
defenses was that he was abused
48:35
by his father.
48:37
And I could
48:40
relate to that. Of course,
48:42
you know, I never wanted to go out
48:44
and kill
48:46
anybody or or hurt anybody, but I think we
48:48
deal with things differently.
48:51
And he had demons
48:53
that he was fighting just
48:55
like me. So I can
48:58
say it was more it
49:00
was more for me that I
49:02
could I could
49:04
justify forgiveness
49:05
for him. When the fourth
49:07
of July comes around now,
49:10
everyone thinks fireworks
49:12
and celebration that what you
49:14
think or does it always take you back
49:16
to that time? It
49:19
well, that was one
49:20
of the things that I felt
49:23
Yeah. always
49:24
it always brings that around.
49:26
And if I
49:27
didn't think about it, I felt bad for not
49:30
thinking about it.
49:32
Because of Gary and
49:34
Johnny losing their lives. And if I
49:36
didn't think about them, then I
49:38
wasn't honoring
49:40
them I
49:41
have found more peace with it lately. I still
49:44
think about it.
49:46
There is a couple of
49:48
July's that went by that it was wasn't
49:50
until, like, the next day that I
49:52
was, like,
49:53
oh, yeah. This marks the anniversary
49:55
of, you know,
49:57
had to do the math when my
50:00
daughter turned a certain age, then it
50:02
was always like, well,
50:04
that was one year marking because
50:06
she was born directly
50:08
after it. So I always
50:10
remembered like
50:12
she turned thirty five this year, so it
50:15
was thirty six years ago. So, yeah,
50:17
it still comes up as a
50:19
memory. It doesn't hold this
50:22
as much weight, but I stick close to the house. I don't
50:25
like to go in large crowds.
50:28
I feel
50:30
okay, celebrating it with my family here,
50:32
but it does have
50:35
some bad memories attached. It's
50:38
not like you're gonna you could ever forget it.
50:41
Right. It it might
50:43
be a little bit easier
50:46
every year, but I still
50:48
have so many symptoms
50:50
that was caused
50:53
from
50:53
that. I'm working through this PTSD
50:56
work and it it just shows
50:58
me everything that I was going
51:00
through that I was dealing with
51:02
at that time. It wasn't because I was a horrible person. It was
51:04
because I had
51:06
experienced this trauma,
51:08
this stress, and, you
51:10
know, I needed help. Everything was a
51:12
cry for help.
51:14
You have mentioned to me that
51:16
people, if they wish to, can contact you by email,
51:18
and we'll have your email address in
51:20
the show notes for this episode.
51:24
Thanks for sharing your story. Well, thank you,
51:26
Scott. Thanks again for listening.
51:32
Haley was eventually able to meet Gary's sister,
51:34
and she told her that Gary
51:36
died trying to protect her.
51:40
If you enjoyed this episode, you might like
51:42
episode sixty two. In
51:44
that one, my guest, Terry, had
51:47
just moved into her new place in New
51:50
Orleans and had only been there for a couple
51:52
of
51:52
hours. Then something
51:55
happened in the street right outside
51:57
her window. I was sitting next to
51:59
a window. So picture, I'm sitting
52:01
in the chair and it's
52:03
next to a window and I
52:06
pull the curtain back
52:08
and I look out the window to the
52:10
side and I see
52:12
this man being hit,
52:14
you know, being assaulted.
52:17
That's episode sixty
52:20
two titled Terry witnessed a
52:22
murder. And if you're someone who
52:24
enjoys actual nine
52:26
eleven calls, The
52:28
newest RAW Audio episode has just been released. This
52:31
is RAW Audio twenty
52:33
nine. And in this one, you'll
52:35
hear about a man who
52:37
gets attacked by his neighbor because of political
52:40
differences. Oh, we're telling him I'm
52:42
a
52:42
one. Where's your emergency?
52:44
My neighbor
52:45
just shot my
52:47
dad.
52:47
Your neighbor shot your
52:50
dad? Yes. A convenient
52:52
store clerk calls because a man
52:54
comes in the store with a gun.
52:57
Can you guys ask me to call the cops? Please walk
52:59
in there once again. Did you know you're calling
53:01
me
53:01
on one? Yeah. He asked me to call. He walked
53:03
behind the counter and asked me to call ask you to
53:06
call us? Yes. And a man calls
53:08
after an early morning argument
53:10
with his
53:10
wife. What's going on
53:14
there? A murder has
53:17
been committed. Oh, a murder
53:19
has been committed by
53:22
who? Funny
53:24
enough. Are you? You
53:26
can get raw audio twenty nine and
53:28
all of the other twenty eight episodes.
53:32
By becoming a supporter of the podcast at five dollars
53:34
a month. So if you wanna support
53:36
the show, you can do that at what
53:38
was that like dot com slash
53:41
support. At the end of this month, I'll
53:43
be in Orlando at the
53:45
podcast multimedia Expo.
53:49
That's January twenty six to
53:51
twenty nine. So if you're a podcaster
53:53
or thinking about a podcast and you're planning
53:55
to be
53:56
there, let me know so we can connect.
53:58
And now we end this episode like
54:00
we do every episode with a listener story.
54:02
If you have a story that's
54:05
interesting and you can tell in
54:07
around five minutes, record it on your
54:09
phone and email it to me
54:11
at Scott at what was that
54:13
like dot com. This week's story
54:15
is from someone who was taken to one of those weird wilderness
54:18
programs for
54:20
kids. Stay safe,
54:22
and I'll see you in just one week
54:24
because I've cooked up a bonus
54:26
episode for one week from today.
54:29
See you then.
54:31
Hi. My name is Shenade.
54:34
I'm thirty three years old. My name is
54:36
spelled SINE eighty. I know
54:38
it's weird. When I
54:40
was seventeen years old, about two thousand
54:42
and seven, two thousand and eight, I was sent
54:44
to a wilderness program for juvenile
54:46
delinquents in Idaho. Was woken up in middle
54:48
of the night about three AM, probably two strange
54:50
people I'd never met before in my life. They
54:52
had handcuffs, they showed me their IDs, and
54:54
they said, hey, you need to come with
54:57
us. And they wouldn't tell me where we were going. So I, you
54:59
know and I didn't know what to do. I really didn't.
55:01
I I asked them all my parents were, and they
55:03
wouldn't tell me. They're just, like, they know your they
55:05
know her year. They let
55:07
us in. And it's like, alright. Whatever.
55:10
So I get in the car with them and
55:12
we go to the airport and we
55:14
fly to Spoke in
55:16
Washington. From there, we drove to
55:18
Bonner's Ferry, Idaho. And like I
55:20
said, I have no idea what's going on this
55:22
whole time. There, I'm strip searched. I've never been strip
55:24
searched before. I've never been to jail. I don't even
55:26
have a felony. So this is all
55:28
very new to me. And I'm I'm
55:30
given a bunch of things
55:32
like a backpack, hiking
55:34
boots, a water bottle, I
55:36
mean, a bunch of stuff. Right
55:39
there, I am shown the community area.
55:41
It it kinda looks like a clock. I don't really
55:43
know how to explain it, but
55:46
it's like you know, at six
55:48
o'clock, you've got the mess hall. At one
55:50
o'clock, you've got the
55:54
four o'clock, whatever. Anyway, there's all these areas around
55:56
the circle. And we sleep
55:58
in tipies. Yes. Actual
56:00
tipies. One for the boys, one
56:03
for the girls. Of the responsibilities that
56:05
we were given, we had to
56:07
clean the outhouse, which was absolutely
56:09
fucking miscuffing. And we also had
56:11
to saw logs And when I say that,
56:13
I mean, like, we actually saw blogs. didn't sleep. The boys would carry
56:15
over these big ass logs from the forest. We didn't
56:17
chop them down or anything, but, you know,
56:20
they would somehow pull them
56:22
all over to the wood cutting
56:24
station and meet a partner we would saw
56:26
this big log with a
56:28
giant song. Also did a bunch of,
56:30
like, self improvement exercises and, you know, getting to know you games
56:32
and all that bullshit.
56:34
And then we also We
56:37
had to clean up after ourselves, after dinner. We
56:40
had to take the
56:42
trash to this dumpster that was about a
56:44
mile away, me, and
56:46
another person. We're on each side of
56:48
this trash can that was, like, eighty
56:50
pounds of liquid trash, and we'd
56:52
have to haul it all the way to this dumpster.
56:54
And I can recall
56:56
many times you
56:56
know, feeling like
56:57
my arm was gonna fall off at any point.
56:59
Also, in order to graduate, there were a
57:01
couple of things that we
57:03
had to do. The first part was we had to do this thing
57:05
called ticket to ride. And if you're familiar
57:08
with AA or recovery or a
57:10
fourth step, It's basically
57:12
that. Basically, we just had to write
57:14
down all the things we've done wrong in our life
57:16
and then they would mail it to our parents for
57:18
them to read every single last
57:20
horrific detail. As soon as that
57:22
was completed, we were allowed
57:24
to go on this hike, which was
57:26
required in order for us to get out.
57:28
So it's this week long hike
57:30
for Montana. Aside
57:32
from the fact that I absolutely hated it,
57:34
it was beautiful. It was the most beautiful
57:36
place I'd ever seen at
57:38
night. They let us sleep style at
57:40
one time and we got to see the entire night sky and there's
57:42
no light pollution out there. So
57:45
you saw everything satellites
57:48
the Milky Way, you name
57:49
it, we saw it.
57:49
We were traversing across
57:52
this this very steep
57:55
hill. So, like, I was walking across the steep
57:57
incline and I lost my footing
58:00
and I rolled all the way down this
58:02
damn hill and the only thing that stopped
58:04
me from
58:06
rolling any further was my face hitting a tree. And I woke up from
58:08
that. Well, not woke up. I didn't pass out, but
58:10
I came to from that
58:12
with blood running down
58:14
my
58:14
face. Thinking I'm dead. Like, this is it. This is the end. And
58:16
sadly, no, it was not the end.
58:18
After that, I realized
58:20
I had spray my ankle And
58:24
so I had to basically finish the rest of the
58:26
hike with the spring ankle
58:27
and, you know, cuts it out blood
58:30
on
58:31
my head. We came back and we were done basically. And
58:34
there was only one more thing we had to do. We had to
58:36
climb this giant
58:38
tower structure I'm terrified
58:40
of heights. I refused to do it.
58:42
I still did it, but I'm
58:44
like, no. I'm not gonna do it. Fuck
58:46
this. Like, everything was, like, forty or fifty
58:48
feet high. Like, I'm terrified. That was done.
58:51
Our parents were basically there. They showed up,
58:53
I think, maybe the next day or something
58:55
like that. And, you know, works. I saw them, and I was
58:57
really glad to see them. But at the same time, I was just like,
58:59
you know, die. Fuck you for doing this to me. So
59:01
we get home. And for
59:03
about two weeks, I think roughly about I was I
59:05
was an angel. You know what I mean? I I did
59:07
anything my parents asked me to do. I cleaned
59:10
my room. I did the
59:12
dishes to trash, you know, just normal shit. And then I
59:14
just, like, I'm done. I don't wanna do
59:16
this anymore, you know, so I
59:18
left. And I
59:21
ended up getting involved in drugs, really bad. Actually, I did heroin
59:23
for about two and a half years. I was
59:25
shooting it and sorting it. I did
59:27
go to rehab. The
59:30
very last time I used heroin was May twenty
59:32
third two thousand ten. I have not touched
59:34
it since and I'm extremely fortunate.
59:38
Because when I stopped using it, that was when the
59:40
crocodile and the carpet and all stuff was
59:42
coming out and people were dropping, like, wise.
59:45
So needless to say, I'm really grateful to be alive
59:48
today. Today, I am a nurse. I have a child
59:50
of my own. I've done it. I've,
59:52
you know, I beat the
59:54
statistic and I don't mean to sound like I have
59:56
control because I don't. But at the same
59:58
time, you know, I don't use hair when I'm
1:00:00
on daily basics anymore and I'm,
1:00:02
you know, I live a good
1:00:04
life today. I was angry at my mother and my parents, but
1:00:06
we've learned to, you know,
1:00:08
get through our issues. So
1:00:11
I'm really grateful that I got this opportunity
1:00:14
to speak my story, and I'm really
1:00:16
glad y'all got to hear it. So thanks for
1:00:18
sticking along.
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