0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music

0:04

and more. I was

0:06

going to ask you, do you have like a guilty pleasure?

0:09

Yeah, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. I've

0:11

watched that rash. I know. Look,

0:13

of course, I'm a guilty pleasure. And

0:16

my guilty pleasures are usually associated with

0:18

sweet stuff. You know, tiramisu. I'm on

0:20

the search for the perfect tiramisu or

0:23

a tiramisu that's the better than the one I make. So

0:25

basically sugar, you're a sugar seeker. Yeah, but my

0:27

tiramisu, you don't want to drive after you have

0:29

it. Oh, that sounds great. Well,

0:32

let's talk about that recipe later. But

0:34

I do like the idea of people

0:36

sort of always like confess that they're

0:38

into sugar when actually it's like one

0:40

of the most fundamental things to our

0:42

biology. It's like, seek energy, seek sugar.

0:45

And that's what we're going to be talking about on

0:47

today's Watch That Rash. It is

0:49

indeed. Well, the opposite of that. Artificial

0:51

sweeteners. I'm health reporter Tegan Taylor on

0:53

Jagger and Turable Land. And I'm physician

0:56

and journalist Dr. Norman Swan speaking to you

0:58

from Gannickelland. So,

1:02

yes, Norman, we've been getting a couple of

1:04

questions. Actually, everyone seems to be asking about

1:07

artificial sweeteners. Chris is asking that he's heard

1:09

that they're not great for our health. He's

1:12

wondering about natural sweeteners like stevia.

1:15

And we also got a question today

1:17

from Sharon about whether substituting sugar for

1:19

sweeteners in her tea and coffee might

1:21

be good. Also, Sharon says

1:24

that our banter. Is very

1:26

amusing. So, Sharon,

1:28

maybe we will answer your question before Chris

1:30

is. I guess the

1:32

good place to start here would be like, why

1:35

are we so obsessed with

1:37

sweetness? Well, the

1:39

sweet taste and a taste for

1:41

sweetness is just fundamental in our

1:43

biology. We've got receptors for sweetness

1:45

on our tongue. Children

1:47

have a strong preference from sweetness

1:49

over bitterness. You've actually got to

1:51

train kids to acquire a taste

1:53

for bitterness, such as in vegetables

1:55

and so on. And one

1:58

assumes that it has survival value. that

2:00

we looked for calories and

2:03

preferred foods with calories to get us

2:05

through the lean times. Also

2:07

that it may well be that sweet

2:09

things are less likely to be toxic

2:11

and contain poisons. I mean there's all

2:13

sorts of reasons but we've certainly evolved

2:16

for a strong taste of sweetness. It

2:18

is interesting that it doesn't feel like it

2:20

could possibly ever have been the case because

2:22

it's so ubiquitous now. It's hard to find

2:25

any food that doesn't have like the sugar

2:27

in it but in nature sweetness

2:29

is pretty rare and so if you found

2:31

honey or really ripe fruit you're like get

2:34

this into you now, capitalise on this

2:36

opportunity. Yeah and it's just

2:38

so pleasant. It just

2:40

rings every neurological bell. Well

2:42

that just sounds like something a human would

2:44

say. Exactly. I was going to say about

2:46

the preference of sweet in young kids and we sort

2:48

of grow out of it a little bit

2:51

and I actually was really interested to know

2:53

why we would grow out of it. If

2:55

it is such a strong evolutionary driver like

2:58

why would we lose that taste for intense

3:00

sweetness as we get older? I don't

3:02

think we lose it. It's just balanced against

3:04

other sensations, other taste sensations but some people

3:06

don't lose it to a huge extent and

3:09

they really do consume a lot of sweet

3:11

stuff. I've just come back

3:13

from a couple of days in the United States

3:16

and it's extraordinary when you've got a

3:18

taste for Australian food and

3:20

people in America might not notice it but if you go to

3:22

America a lot of foods are

3:24

sweet which are not sweet here. I

3:27

know that you're a true Australian Norman because there's nothing

3:29

Australians love more than to talk about how much

3:31

better our food is here than it is in

3:33

America so congratulations. Thank you very

3:35

much indeed and as you know Scots don't

3:37

put sugar in their porridge, they put salt.

3:40

Not sure which is worth. So

3:43

I suppose what you get when you have

3:45

a species, humans, that are obsessed with sugar

3:47

and we have turned into an industrial society.

3:49

We make a lot of foods with sugar

3:51

in it and so the reason why we

3:53

have artificial sweeteners is because we're so obsessed

3:55

with sugar that we're trying to replace

3:58

it for ourselves without. The

4:00

calories the come along with sugar.

4:02

Yeah nothing revolutionary since this as

4:05

square off that as you said

4:07

we got it from funny we

4:09

got it from fruit and other

4:12

foods soon others we got a

4:14

whole Foods not added sugar was

4:16

developed over the centuries is the

4:19

production of sucrose sugar from sugarcane

4:21

from beat and so on where

4:23

you could actually artificially sweetened foods

4:26

without the use of fruit and

4:28

so on. And that's been. The

4:30

addiction that we've had for centuries.

4:32

and it's got a lot worse.

4:35

And of course, sugar. Table sugar

4:37

is half fructose and fructose. That

4:39

part of sugars incredibly toxic and

4:41

behaves like us, like a fat

4:43

in our bloodstream. I know that

4:46

it's bad as like a societal level and

4:48

then a lot of people have hill health

4:50

effects about it but I also really happy

4:52

mad about it because it does make. Sense

4:54

I strongly good. that's what am I

4:56

from one of these things? It's a

4:58

matter of degree, but it's also created

5:00

a sense that well if we don't

5:02

need tix sugar. Can we

5:04

use other sweeteners which are obsessive

5:07

as toxic? I'm a spent force.

5:09

Well let's talk about the artificial

5:11

sweeteners and I was really interested

5:13

said discover how old artificial sweetening

5:15

inside assist. Sort of artificial sweetener

5:17

is semi you're an Emmy Non sugar

5:19

sweetened right? So non sugar sweetness

5:21

as saccharin with their synthesised in

5:23

the eighteen hundreds eighteen Seventy nine

5:25

which was really interesting until they

5:28

thought that maybe cause cancer. Ah

5:30

but then from about the fifties

5:32

and sixties. It. Really exploded. Which

5:34

really isn't that much of a surprise because

5:36

that's when our Ultra prices. Food industry really

5:38

kicked off. As well, And so it makes

5:40

sense of that the Time A were. Also,

5:43

it's discovering that we can manufacture compounds that,

5:45

at least in our mouths. Feel

5:47

a lot like sugar. And you

5:49

find these artificial sweeteners in a

5:51

lot of different food. So it's

5:53

not just carbonated beverages, it's on

5:55

the table where you add it

5:57

to her coffee or your t.

6:00

It came yogurt. It's in cakes.

6:02

It's in all sorts of sense

6:05

that you might eat so we

6:07

obtain so you can consume quite

6:09

a lot of these artificial sweeteners

6:11

on any given day of the

6:13

week. and different kinds of or

6:16

a Spartan has become probably the

6:18

communist artificial sweetener around. Let's

6:20

do a bit of a breakdown of

6:22

the ones that were talking about. This

6:25

artificial leg truly synthesize sweeteners and in

6:27

his all sides plant based sweeteners and

6:29

a suitable have a similar thing in

6:32

common, which is that the substances that

6:34

taste very intensely slate to us humans,

6:36

so any need a little bit of

6:39

them to provide a similar level of

6:41

fitness. To shook on correct and

6:43

one of the townsend food industries

6:45

to meet artificial suit robot for

6:47

shall sweeteners which tastes like sucrose

6:50

I must be the sounds because

6:52

a lot don't and even the

6:54

ones that are pretty good don't

6:56

but nonetheless are sufficiently sweet that

6:59

the to get away with it

7:01

and stevia is the so called

7:03

natural one the plant based one

7:05

as opposed to the synthetic artificial

7:08

sweeteners. Do a little bit of

7:10

chemistry. Listen here. We probably

7:12

do a my the person gives

7:14

you probably not a necessity say,

7:16

but really what they're doing is

7:18

they're interacting with receptors on our

7:21

tongues. Stevia You terms of sweet

7:23

for sweet as like several hundred

7:25

times more sweet than table sugar

7:27

says incredibly sweet substance by their

7:29

A bit off target in terms

7:31

of our taste receptors, which is

7:34

why they don't necessarily own tastes

7:36

just like sugar, but that's what

7:38

they interact with. So the

7:40

reason. Why we turning to sweetness like this

7:42

is because we want fleet seeds. We don't

7:44

want to have to pay the calorie dense

7:46

price of. Secrecy now

7:48

stayed so. Why is there

7:51

a question around health effects if

7:53

they're not providing the calories. Sick

7:55

a day. Because. has more

7:57

to this you're adding a synthetic

7:59

so to our diet, I

8:01

mean, Stevie okay is natural, but you're

8:04

adding something synthetic to our diet, potentially

8:06

in large quantities and if you're

8:08

going to do that you want to know that it's

8:10

safe and the food regulators want to know it's safe.

8:12

Are you adding stuff to food? We

8:14

know what sugar does, do we know what these

8:16

artificial sweeteners do? So there's been a lot of

8:18

studies to actually find that out. Well

8:21

the WHO, the World Health Organization, put

8:23

out a review last year on the health effects

8:25

of non sugar sweeteners that made a really big

8:27

splash at the time. We actually discussed it on

8:29

the health report which you can listen to wherever

8:32

you get your podcasts. Distill us down Norman what

8:34

the kind of main take-home message was from this

8:36

WHO report. I need to

8:38

get technical here in terms of how

8:40

it's been studied. So

8:43

one way that artificial sweeteners have

8:45

been studied is to take large

8:47

groups of people who are followed

8:49

for many years and

8:51

their diet is analyzed and we know

8:54

what they've been eating by and large.

8:56

There's some inaccuracies in that. These

8:58

are called cohort studies. When

9:01

you look at cohort studies the

9:04

news is not particularly good. Changing

9:06

from sugar to artificial

9:08

sweeteners or having a dominantly artificial sweeteners

9:11

you don't rather than sugar does

9:13

not seem to affect your weight. It

9:16

looks as though that it increases the risk

9:19

of type 2 diabetes, coronary

9:21

heart disease and premature death

9:23

over an extended period of time. Not

9:25

by a huge amount but

9:27

by a bit. Can I jump in here and

9:29

ask a question because I had a question about this

9:32

that maybe you can explain to me. It

9:34

looks like there's links between using

9:37

artificial sweeteners and things like diabetes,

9:39

coronary heart disease, perhaps

9:41

higher BMI. When it

9:43

seems to me that the types of people

9:45

who are probably most drawn to using diet

9:47

products are people who perhaps are already

9:49

maybe at a higher BMI. They're trying to

9:52

lose weight and so could it be that

9:54

those things are linked to the non-nutritive sweetness

9:56

because people are already in that

9:58

category or is it that That driving that

10:01

link Driving that increase. In Risk

10:03

you go to the top of

10:05

seniority class immediately because what? you're

10:07

talking about his reverse causality and

10:09

it's one of the things that

10:11

damn cohort studies in a new

10:13

oh no, repeat what you said

10:15

with a sense weeks or so

10:17

good M guy from pleasure I

10:19

see. But essentially this isn't the

10:21

case that people who are more

10:24

likely to be obese, more light

10:26

have a how unhealthy what lifestyle

10:28

are they more likely to I

10:30

say, consume artificial sweeteners And it's

10:32

their risk. Factors that determine their

10:34

poor outcomes of the in an

10:36

artificial sweeteners are just something they're

10:38

trying to use to help them

10:40

along, but it's not on the

10:42

put a high risk any. We

10:44

know these cohort studies have tried

10:46

very hard to remove reverse causality

10:48

from their start on the East

10:50

and do that statistically, but he

10:52

can never do that perfectly and

10:55

they say these negative effects which

10:57

are not large by the way

10:59

but there there are maintained even

11:01

when you remove statistically. Reverse

11:03

causality, which is what you're talking

11:05

about them. So here's the other

11:07

contrast. when you the randomized controlled

11:09

trials, they don't show those effects

11:11

they actually show in the short

11:13

term. and most of these studies

11:16

are short term. A monotonous on

11:18

a high quality in the short

11:20

term, switching to artificial sweeteners actually

11:22

causes to lose a bit of

11:24

weight. Not much, just a little

11:26

bit of weight, but in is

11:29

possibly not sustains us. The studies

11:31

have only been short term. And

11:33

where the balance lines? Yes, we will.

11:36

What we're we're doesn't land if you

11:38

are trying to lose weight. Artificial

11:41

sweeteners are a handy add

11:43

on. Because she liked sweet

11:45

drinks and you switch to artificial

11:47

sweeteners is a clear benefit of

11:49

artificial sweeteners, at least in the

11:52

short term. However, in the

11:54

long term those benefit seem to

11:56

disappear and if anything a little

11:58

bit of ring. Actually

12:01

emergence there probably is a very

12:03

very small increase risk of cancer

12:05

and studies are all over the

12:08

place. So for example in Maine

12:10

the suggested that there's an increased

12:13

risk of small increase risk of

12:15

non Hodgkin's lymphoma, multiple myeloma but

12:17

in your these are not seen

12:20

in other studies and you if

12:22

you take all the stays on

12:24

cancer together your maybe increasing the

12:27

risk of cancer in these cohort

12:29

groups by about point. Two

12:31

percent. Something like that. So effortless.

12:34

Say you're in your forty's Stick

12:36

our thousand two in your forties.

12:38

Maybe it's forty forty five. people

12:40

will develop cancer deaths at baseline

12:42

as a baseline, and then if

12:44

you increase that by point, two

12:46

percent that maybe two or three

12:49

more people will develop cancer. I'd

12:51

have a thousand people in the

12:53

forties. so not huge and the

12:55

World Health Organization really has racked

12:57

back. It's our assessment of cancer

12:59

risk and they. Think is pretty

13:01

small slip. Put it in the great

13:03

T they possibly carcinogenic to humans, which doesn't

13:06

sound good when you look. At At.

13:08

that's the context. That is the

13:10

same category as l a zero and

13:12

didn't hide the labour and the group

13:14

said does that include things like red

13:16

meat and definitely carcinogenic includes. Alcohol

13:18

so I mean handed things that were

13:20

putting in our body is a long

13:22

way behind. Yes and the whole thing

13:24

with the votes have organization with me.

13:26

This is a date with daily intake,

13:29

missing additions, Huge. oh yeah and the

13:31

be very few people you to achieve

13:33

that increased risk of cancer, some vast

13:35

insects a compare to book the most

13:37

people would actually be consuming. Less

13:39

safe days tops out at around

13:41

five Latest artificially sweetened. Soft drink

13:43

a day which physically couldn't sit in

13:45

front seats. And services

13:48

divorce that russia propping up drinking that was.

13:50

I know that the answer to the question of

13:52

like. What savvy drinking is what our. Thoughts

13:54

is I am feeling that

13:56

something says he am I.

14:00

Am I killing myself faster if I have the one with

14:02

the sugar in it or if I have the one with

14:04

the not sugar sweeteners in it? Rather

14:06

than taking sucrose, in other words,

14:08

added highly refined sugar in your

14:10

diet, trading that for

14:12

artificial sweeteners, it's probably going

14:15

to be better for you in the short term. But

14:17

if you're taking vast volumes of stuff for years, it's

14:19

not necessarily going to be good for you at

14:21

all. It's really about volume.

14:25

And what about not artificial but still

14:27

things that aren't sugar sweeteners, other non-sugar

14:29

sweeteners like Stevia? There really hasn't been

14:31

that much research into Stevia. So we

14:33

know it's a pretty good sweetener. But

14:36

whether or not it's better for you than

14:38

the synthetic ones, we just simply don't know

14:40

that. It's not been well studied.

14:43

All right. So avoid your sugar,

14:45

but probably also avoid the artificial

14:47

and other non-sugar sweeteners. We

14:50

really are just drinking water, aren't we? Yeah.

14:53

Sucrose should just be a treat like when I invite

14:55

you over for my tiramisu. Just while

14:57

I'm waiting for the invite. What's the recipe? It's

15:00

probably not that much different from anybody else's recipe,

15:03

except that I'm not shy with sugar

15:05

and I'm not

15:07

shy with the really good coffee to

15:09

soak the Savoyard biscuits when you put

15:12

them in. And I

15:14

also use alcohol, usually

15:16

Kahlua, maybe Kahlua and

15:19

some brandy. And I warn

15:21

guests not to drive after they have it. And

15:23

it sits for 24 hours in the fridge.

15:26

It sounds like a real health food. You're

15:29

just ready to go and take on the world after you've

15:31

had it. Well, if you want

15:33

to email Norman to ask him for

15:35

the full recipe for his tiramisu or

15:37

to ask us a question, you can

15:39

email us. We are thatrash at abc.net.au.

15:42

Now, we've got to

15:44

tell you about this fantastic email because

15:47

you might remember our last Watch That

15:49

Rash was about plooks and pimples and

15:51

acne. And you

15:53

put out a call. I did. You were

15:56

calling them plooks, which I hadn't heard of.

15:58

That's the Scottish word for pimples. And

16:00

I issued a throw down to the world

16:02

saying if you had a grosser word for

16:04

zits to let us know and Maxim from

16:06

Russia Has emailed us. Yeah, Maxine's

16:08

a doctor and he listens to the

16:10

health report and watch that rash to

16:13

brush up on his Medical English. I

16:15

hope he's not using it for his

16:18

lives in Russia, but anyway, it's Maxine throws

16:20

us this long and very amusing email

16:24

and Apparently if you

16:27

really want to insult somebody you call them a

16:29

pimple in Russian So he gave

16:31

us the Russian you know of it and

16:33

we've had to research the pronunciation So now

16:36

Tegan is going to tell you so instead

16:38

of swearing foully You can call somebody this

16:40

and as long as they're not Russian They

16:42

want to have a clue what you're calling

16:44

them and it is my attempt at pronouncing

16:47

it is please Hey,

16:49

that's pretty good. Give us yours Bitch

16:53

You bitch get away from me And

16:56

it's a Russian for pimple So thank you

16:58

so much Maxim and thank you to everyone who sends an

17:00

emails to us that rash at ABC net

17:02

today you Well, you can send

17:04

us your love letters your feedback good feedback

17:07

only please and of course your questions that

17:09

we will answer on the show and If

17:12

you would like to see us in person and

17:14

you are in Brisbane on Friday night this week

17:16

You can if you come to our

17:18

live show it's at the World Science

17:20

Festival in Brisbane it's part of the

17:23

social science night at the World Science

17:25

Festival and You can

17:27

search World Science Festival social science to buy

17:29

your tickets buy your tickets come along

17:31

Maybe even ask your disgusting question to us

17:34

in person and if you can't we love

17:36

you anyway I've already had some disgusting questions and

17:38

everyone take it from yep indeed so for some

17:40

of you We'll see you on Friday for

17:42

most of you. See you next week. See you then You've

17:57

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