0:02

I'm so excited to finally have

0:04

a fellow herbalist on the show again.

0:06

We've done a few episodes in our

0:08

history here with herbalists and it's

0:11

always so magical, the

0:13

softness and the depth of the conversation

0:15

and how we get to just

0:18

get a little woo and weird and

0:20

fun while also giving all of these

0:22

medicinal nuggets and bits of advice around

0:25

using herbs in your life. And

0:27

today's episode is no different. Amber

0:29

Magnolia Hill, she is one of

0:31

my favorite herbalists in the world.

0:33

I love her Instagram and her

0:35

blog and her products so much.

0:37

And this episode is like a

0:39

warm hug from a friend. She hand makes

0:41

these beautiful plant medicines for people who yearn

0:44

for knowledge about herbalism and want to deepen

0:46

their connection with their body and their ancestors.

0:49

And her big passion is body oiling.

0:51

So we're going to talk a lot

0:54

about the benefits of body oiling,

0:56

specifically with herb infused body oils, not

0:59

essential oils, but whole herbal plant

1:01

matter infused into oils the long

1:03

way so that you're getting the

1:05

full spectrum of plant medicine and

1:07

how that topical application of body

1:09

oiling not only helps the plant

1:11

medicine penetrate, but also protects

1:13

and soothes our nervous system just

1:16

by the practice of oiling itself.

1:18

We're also going to talk about why

1:21

herbalism is about our relationship with plants

1:23

rather than just using plants

1:25

from an A to Z dictionary to

1:27

treat specific ailments in this disconnected way

1:30

and why you need to learn how

1:32

to work with plants that are addressing

1:34

your personality, your patterns, your character, your

1:36

root causes, instead of taking a blanket

1:38

approach. We're going to talk

1:41

about plant communication, how to start speaking with

1:43

plants in a sense where you can sit with

1:45

a plant, you can get to know it, you

1:47

can start to get these little pings about what

1:49

it does or how your body is responding to

1:51

it. Rather than just reading about

1:53

plants in a textbook, we're also going to

1:55

chat about plants appearing to us in our

1:57

dreams and how there's so much wisdom there

1:59

and how you can encourage more of

2:01

that type of communication. And we're gonna

2:03

talk about the medicine of storytelling and

2:05

the experience in Amber's life that made

2:07

her realize the mythical power of plants.

2:10

She says something in this episode, which

2:12

is that plants do not come to

2:14

us unless we're ready for them, the

2:16

lessons that they're gonna teach us. And

2:19

let me tell you, I have had so

2:21

many plants come to me and flip

2:23

my life upside down. And it was only when

2:25

I was really ready to take the

2:27

next step because plants are powerful teachers. A lot of

2:30

them show us how to set boundaries. A

2:32

lot of them clear our visions so that

2:34

we can see really painful things that make

2:36

us have to take action. That's really hard.

2:38

But man, they are our greatest teachers. And

2:40

it's so nice to have an episode that

2:42

goes back to our roots and talks about

2:44

traditional herbalism. So let's get into it. Thank

2:46

you guys, as always, for listening. We're getting

2:48

really close to the holidays. I know Hanukkah

2:50

has already started, but I wanna wish you

2:52

guys a happy holiday, Merry Christmas. And we

2:55

got another episode coming for you guys

2:57

to wrap up the year next week

2:59

before the new year. Love you

3:01

all. Thank you for sharing the show and leaving

3:03

us a review. You're the best. Special

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thank you to Notion for sponsoring this

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in the shown us. Now let's get

5:22

into the episode. Of

5:25

are he writes. Noon,

5:28

New others moving to every

5:30

day. It's living my life

5:32

since. No.

5:37

At Health Is. So.

5:44

My guess today is Amber Magnolia Hell

5:46

who is an herbalist, an educator, a

5:49

mom, a storyteller and one of my

5:51

favorite humans to follow on Instagram in

5:53

in the podcast Rahlves. So please welcome

5:55

Ember Hi, Thank you so much for

5:58

being on the show Kyle. Thank

6:00

you so much and likewise. I am just so

6:02

happy to have you on today because I've been

6:04

a fan of you for a long time. I

6:07

feel like listening to your show

6:09

really makes me feel closer to the

6:11

magic of herbalism and

6:13

remembering and the fact that this

6:15

is sort of a birthright and ancestral right. And

6:18

I love the way that you speak about things. So

6:20

I can't wait to get into all of the juice,

6:22

but to start off the show, we

6:24

like to have a little astrology moment so that guests

6:26

can kind of get to know you in a fun

6:28

way. So can you please sign in with your

6:30

Sun, Moon and Rising signs if

6:32

you know them? Yeah, Aquarius Sun,

6:34

Aries Moon and Cancer Rising. How

6:37

does your Aries Moon feel? Because that's a tough one.

6:40

Yeah, you know my husband's an Aries Moon

6:42

as well, which is interesting. My dad's an

6:45

Aries Sun and it's always been a difficult

6:47

relationship with him. One

6:49

friend one time was like, that's why you're

6:51

always like starting new projects and businesses and

6:53

making things happen. I was like, okay, I'll

6:55

glom onto that. Oh,

6:59

that is such an Aries trait. I feel like

7:01

when Aries is in the Sun position,

7:03

it's even more so like I'm going to switch

7:05

industries today. I'm going to totally jump to a

7:07

new career. I'm going to start things, but when

7:09

it's in the Moon placement, I feel like

7:11

that's a little bit more grounded, but

7:14

I also feel like all of the

7:16

energy and sometimes anger and force that

7:18

can come with Aries kind of gets

7:21

pushed down. So like there's like some repressed

7:23

anger that I see in Aries Moon placement

7:26

and when they learn to harness it, they

7:28

are like the most embodied individuals ever.

7:31

Well, now I'm going to glom onto that. So thank you

7:33

because it resonates. Not

7:36

me calling, like do you have repressed anger? Okay,

7:40

amazing. Thank you for sharing that with us. I

7:42

always love to know people's big three and

7:45

I also find that most herbalists

7:47

and plant people tend to have

7:49

a very special herbal ally that

7:51

was either the first one to

7:53

speak to us, got us

7:55

into herbalism or perhaps really held us through a

7:57

tough period of time. And I find that that

8:00

herb tends to introduce us even better

8:02

than we can. So I'd love to

8:04

know what herb is your spirit medicine?

8:06

It's so hard to choose just one,

8:08

but I will choose the one that

8:10

felt like the initiator for me onto

8:12

the plant path. And that

8:14

was mugwort and

8:17

you too. Yeah,

8:21

no, it's pretty common. You know, when I've shared

8:23

that story, a lot of people come forward and

8:25

say, oh my gosh, me too, and this is

8:27

what happened. And it's always a magical story. And

8:30

so for me, I was in an herbal apprenticeship

8:32

with my teacher, Cammie McBride, who taught me all

8:34

about herbal body oils. And

8:36

I went down to this used bookstore in

8:39

our town with my now 16 year old

8:41

who was one at the time. And this

8:43

gorgeous book was on the shelf just singing

8:45

out at me, Herbal Rituals by Judith Berger.

8:48

Still my favorite herb book of all time.

8:50

It's extremely rare and hard to find now.

8:52

Very expensive if you find it online, but

8:54

she did set up a print on demand

8:56

so you can get it. But

8:58

that was in early November and that book

9:00

is set up month by month. And

9:03

it starts in November because in the old

9:05

pagan calendar, that one was the beginning of

9:07

the new year. And her

9:09

herb of the month was mugwort. And I

9:11

was just, oh my

9:14

gosh, like a loft on a cloud

9:17

of dreamy, mythic herbal mugwort

9:19

love reading that chapter. And

9:21

I remember finishing it and looking at my

9:23

daughter and saying, we're gonna go for a

9:26

walk. And I was just like, we're gonna

9:28

find mugwort. I just know we're gonna go

9:30

find mugwort. And we walked up past these

9:32

shitty little apartments that were at the top

9:34

of our hill and into this wooded hilly

9:36

area and came around a corner. And there

9:38

was a fucking huge stand of mugwort, like

9:40

mugwort taller than my head. It's like a

9:42

grandmother stand. I think I yelled

9:45

a little bit, screamed and danced

9:48

around and the joy was unbelievable.

9:51

I knew I was gonna find you. I set out to

9:53

find you. And 10 minutes

9:55

later, I found you. And ever

9:58

since then, I mean, mugwort So

10:00

it's deep physical medicine, but deep

10:02

mythic medicine as well. I'd love

10:04

for you to expand on that

10:06

because your business essentially is called

10:08

mythic medicinal. And myth

10:11

and storytelling is such a huge part of

10:13

your medicine. And I've heard you say before

10:15

that often it's even more important

10:17

than the plant constituents and the things that we

10:19

can read about a book in

10:22

a scientific lens that kind of validates what the

10:24

greater culture wants us to validate, that it's actually

10:26

the storytelling behind the plant that's often the greater

10:28

medicine. So can you speak to that in the

10:30

lens of Mugwort and just also in a general

10:33

lens in the way that you view herbalism? Sure.

10:35

So I always say that herbalism is vast. And

10:37

I think a lot of people when they're first

10:39

feeling old and wanting to step into it,

10:41

maybe as a career path, feel like they

10:43

need to be clinical herbalists because

10:45

we're going off the medical model. This is definitely

10:47

what I thought at the beginning. I'm going to

10:49

memorize what every plant is good

10:52

for, you know, and all the medicinal constituents of each

10:54

plant. And over the years I realized my brain doesn't

10:56

work like that. And I'm not good at that. I'm

10:58

not good at people sitting down in front of me

11:00

and telling me what their problem is and going, Oh,

11:03

you should use this and that. Even though as

11:05

soon as someone else says it, I'm like, well, of

11:07

course that's what she would be using. Everyone knows that,

11:09

you know, but what I realized

11:11

is that it's about our relationships with the

11:13

plants. And this is something all of our

11:15

ancestors would have known and then keyed into.

11:17

It's not like they had to take a

11:20

class on plant communication or plant relationships like

11:22

we do need to today because that knowledge

11:24

has been severed. But it's like that story,

11:26

you know, that story was so deep inside

11:28

of me. I have different stories of different

11:30

plants and that is where

11:32

it's alive for me. That is where

11:35

herbalism is alive is how I'm in

11:37

relationship with the plant. And

11:39

it means so much more than

11:41

memorizing these long lists of constituents.

11:43

And for people who think, yeah,

11:45

that sounds great, but like, I don't have

11:47

those experiences. I've never had those kinds of

11:49

experiences. I'm not like a magical, intuitive psychic

11:51

person. I know

11:54

for a fact doing this for 17 years

11:56

now that you don't need to identify as

11:58

any of those things. or ever have

12:01

had that kind of experience before. Like

12:03

it's in your blood, it's innate. Herbalism

12:05

is innate, it's our ancestral inheritance. And

12:07

if you just get out

12:09

into nature or sit with a plant,

12:11

you will have those sort of openings

12:14

in time. And then that

12:16

mythic path that we can walk

12:18

with the plants in our own

12:20

relationships, our own stories is, yeah,

12:22

like you said, deeper medicine to

12:24

me than this view, a Western

12:27

medical approach of, well, this chemical

12:29

is fitting into this receptor in my

12:31

body and having this effect. Like that's true

12:33

too. That's absolutely true too, but you can

12:35

just deepen it when you deepen your actual

12:37

lived relationship. Yeah, it's true. And when you're

12:39

in a clinical setting, which is, you know,

12:42

a lot of my schooling, we did a

12:44

lot of clinic my second and third year.

12:46

And so I would find that

12:48

when I was with a client working one

12:50

on one, and I would use my logical

12:53

brain and say, well, you know, they have

12:55

type two diabetes or blood sugar issues or

12:57

XYZ. So these sorts of herbs would be

13:00

perfect for them in the scientific literature. And I

13:02

would use that scientific mind. I wouldn't have as

13:04

big and beautiful of a result as if I

13:06

were to sit with them and use my intuition

13:09

and listen to the way that they were speaking.

13:11

And here, these

13:13

little nuances in their personality and in their emotional

13:15

and spiritual body and more so match them to

13:17

the plant that was going to hit them on

13:20

that spiritual level of where they needed bolstering. And

13:22

the way that I started to look at

13:24

people and match people to plants totally changed

13:27

and began to rely a lot more on

13:29

intuition than on materia medica. And I just

13:31

find that to be so much more

13:33

effective, especially nowadays and how I formulate

13:35

and all of that. So I love

13:37

that. That's also your, your viewing experience.

13:40

So speaking of connecting with plants

13:43

and hearing and developing our own

13:45

stories and relationships with medicinal plants,

13:48

I've heard you talk a lot about plant communication

13:50

with your teacher, Kami McBride. And I love that

13:52

you guys say you can only learn so much

13:54

from reading all the herb books and studying and

13:56

memorizing because when you memorize something, it doesn't stick

13:58

with you this time. same way as a

14:01

personal emotional experience, it just kind of sticks

14:03

to your bones forever. So I'd love for

14:05

you to talk about this concept and this

14:07

process of plant communication and kind

14:09

of share with us how we can sort of make

14:12

an offering to a plant or begin to say hello

14:14

to a plant. I know you mentioned sitting with them,

14:16

but what does this look like? What

14:18

can this look like and what experiences have you

14:20

and your community had in this

14:23

sense? Yeah, I often think my real

14:25

thought to herbalism or any like, I

14:27

don't know, pension for it I have

14:29

is just because I still have

14:31

my childlike wonder around nature. I

14:34

think everyone does once they get out into

14:36

it. It's like you can't not, you know?

14:38

So yeah, saying

14:40

hi to plants, like it's so simple

14:43

and I'm positive that 100% of

14:46

our ancestors pre a few generations ago

14:48

just did this all the time. Like

14:50

the world is alive, you know, it's

14:52

an animistic reality out there and all

14:54

of human consciousness for

14:57

so many years, millions or hundreds of

14:59

thousands, depending on how you're defining human,

15:01

everything was alive. It wasn't just the

15:03

other human beings around us. It wasn't

15:06

just the few species of animal that

15:08

we kept close to us. It

15:11

was literally everything in the landscape was

15:13

living. And we do feel that

15:15

now when we get out there. And you

15:17

know, I'm going to speak to psychedelic

15:20

experiences here too, because so for so

15:22

many modern people, a big

15:25

mushroom, psilocybin,

15:27

LSD type experience is what taps them

15:29

back into that sort of planetary consciousness

15:31

that we are a part of, but

15:34

are born into this completely

15:37

culturally broken Western world that tells us

15:39

we're not. So we

15:42

don't even have that framework, like those lenses

15:44

aren't on our eyes until they are again,

15:46

until we have some sort of experience that

15:48

opens us up to it. And you see

15:51

children do it naturally too, of course, when

15:53

I was little, I was just reviewing these

15:55

home videos from the early eighties when I'm

15:57

a little kid, and all I'm doing is

15:59

singing to flout. hours. And

16:02

clearly in this like enchanted

16:04

other world in my

16:06

little brain. And then boom, I

16:08

turn five and I go to school and all

16:10

of a sudden I'm not like that anymore. You

16:12

know, I'm like, it was really interesting to reflect

16:14

on this. Yesterday watching these videos, like I really

16:16

changed once I got just put in compulsory

16:18

public school and started getting that,

16:21

you know, moved out of my

16:23

consciousness, that way of knowing being

16:25

de-emphasized. And

16:27

so I'll tell you a story, like my

16:30

favorite plant communication story for myself. And this

16:32

was my very early days. Again, when my

16:34

teenager was a baby, I was studying with

16:36

Cammie. And I didn't think I was capable

16:38

of this. I was like, I'm not one of these people

16:41

who have those kind of experiences. But I read this book.

16:44

And I wish I could remember what book it

16:46

was, but I don't. It gave this meditation

16:49

to do where you imagine yourself

16:51

shrunk down teeny tiny. And you

16:53

climb into the roots of a plant. And then

16:55

you like climb up the plant, sort

16:58

of rest, you know, in the leaves or the

17:00

flowers and ask for a message. And

17:02

I did that. And I got the message.

17:04

I did it with Violet. My

17:07

daughter's middle name is Violet, the oldest one. And

17:09

we had violets springing up

17:11

around us. And this is the smell. I

17:14

couldn't decide if I was going to choose

17:16

mug word or violet when you asked earlier

17:18

what my main plant is. And

17:20

I got the message put me in your ears. I

17:22

was like, the hell does that mean?

17:24

Why would I do that? How would I do

17:27

that? I've never heard anyone talk about this. But

17:29

I was learning to make herbal body oils. So

17:32

I just cut up. I don't think I cut

17:34

them up because violet flowers are so delicate. I

17:36

soaked violet flowers in olive oil for a month.

17:39

And then I put it in my ears.

17:41

And I've had ear issues my whole life

17:43

since I was a young child. Just

17:45

constant, constant ear infections. And

17:48

I still have like tinnitus sometimes today.

17:50

And just my ears are a

17:52

point of childhood, like deep

17:54

childhood hurts, or you know, there's

17:56

something really deep there for me. And

17:58

so I put them in my ears. day the oil

18:00

was ready and then I was nursing

18:03

my baby one year old something to

18:05

sleep that night and I was singing

18:07

to her as I always do I

18:09

could still feel the oil in my

18:11

ears and suddenly one of my

18:13

ears, I think it was my right ear, just popped

18:17

and I could hear my voice changed

18:19

completely you know to my own mind

18:21

and tears started

18:24

rolling down my eyes this heat came into

18:26

my face my face was flushed and I'm

18:28

trying to not wake her up you know

18:30

when you're putting your baby to sleep it's

18:33

like the sacred precious time and so I'm

18:35

like continuing to rock and single I'm having

18:37

this major opening in

18:39

my ear after having put that violet oil

18:42

in there because a month previous I had

18:44

done a meditation where violet told me put

18:46

me in your ears and

18:49

I found out since then that you

18:51

know other people have had this experience with violet

18:53

as being a head ear like nose throat medicine

18:57

it's got that violet color

18:59

right like the chakras this head

19:01

head medicine so and

19:04

there's again mythology comes in like

19:06

colors and chakras and you know

19:08

it's it's making

19:11

meaning humans are meaning making animals and

19:13

when we approach herbalism through like a

19:15

more mythic lens we're making meaning of

19:17

our own lives our own experiences our

19:20

own bodies our own healing that

19:23

really helps me to understand the phrase mythic

19:25

medicine and the power of storytelling so

19:27

much more when you say that humans are

19:29

meaning making because I'm very

19:32

much like that I have to make meaning

19:34

out of every single experience that happens

19:36

to me everything that's bad it's my coping

19:39

mechanism is creating meaning and finding little

19:41

signs and oh this is why this had to

19:43

happen this connected me here it's the way that

19:46

I reflect and process and

19:48

you know some friends in my life have asked

19:50

me do you think that maybe you create too

19:52

much meaning or do you think that sometimes that holds

19:54

you back because you feel like everything has to have

19:56

a meaning and so you know it

19:58

makes you afraid if it doesn't or you can't

20:01

just take certain things at face value or

20:03

accept that sometimes things suck. They

20:05

have to suck for a reason, you know? And at

20:07

times I think they're right and then all of a sudden

20:09

I'll find the meaning and be like, nope, you were wrong.

20:12

Everything has a meaning and it just

20:14

helps me to get by. So it almost in

20:16

my brain relates to like the placebo effect in

20:18

a way because of how powerful our minds are.

20:20

And I think the placebo effect is a really

20:22

dry way to put it. Meaning

20:24

making is a much better way to put it. But it's

20:27

the way that we, when we do

20:29

attach a story or develop this story

20:31

like relationship with a plant or have

20:34

sort of a spiritual experience with one

20:36

or utilize a plant intuitively the way

20:38

that we felt or it told us to

20:40

you that it becomes so much more powerful

20:42

because of how strong not only our minds,

20:44

but our connection with this natural world is.

20:46

And when it's like your friend, when that

20:49

plant becomes your friend and you have an

20:51

inside joke or an inside story with

20:53

it, the medicine really is so much

20:56

stronger than just the constituents on paper.

20:58

Yes. And I know what you mean.

21:00

I think about that too. Like, am I over, am

21:02

I over meaning making? But

21:04

really it's, it's a resiliency

21:06

practice. Like people who can

21:08

find meaning in life are going to be

21:11

more resilient. And I think,

21:13

you know, it's really interesting because I lost

21:15

my very beloved mom in a car accident

21:17

seven years ago. And when

21:20

you lose someone, people like to tell you, you know,

21:22

everything happens for a reason and what's the deeper meaning

21:24

behind this? And that can feel really painful when you're

21:26

in the grief of it. And I especially think of

21:28

people who like lost a child or something, you know,

21:30

kind of like F you

21:32

dude, there's not happened for a

21:35

reason. But what is

21:37

true is that we can find

21:39

some meaning in everything, maybe not

21:41

right away, maybe not right away.

21:44

And when we do find, well, this is how

21:46

this impacted my life in

21:48

a way that turned out to be

21:51

geared towards growth, you

21:53

know, that's, that's meaning making.

21:55

And we can always go there. The people

21:57

who can't go there are unhappy people.

24:00

in a material medica that was written by someone

24:02

else that didn't have that relationship. And when you

24:05

use a plant in a way that it

24:07

teaches you, it's just such a magical moment,

24:09

especially when you need it most. That's

24:12

something Cammie says, like not every

24:14

use for a plant has been

24:16

written down. Yes,

24:19

yes. And I think not every use

24:21

will work for each and every person

24:23

either. Like someone that perhaps has an

24:25

ear issue that stems from a different

24:27

root cause may not have the experience

24:29

with violet that you had. And so

24:31

it just goes to show that how

24:34

that plant is alive and how that

24:36

plant is interacting with you and your

24:38

energy field and your unique needs and

24:40

speaking to you in this very personal

24:42

way that's just so beautiful. And

24:45

I was actually going to ask you that question because I see it

24:47

all the time that an herb will help

24:49

one person, but will

24:51

totally not help another will totally not have that

24:53

same effect on another person. And then people are

24:55

like, Oh, well, this doesn't work or herbalism doesn't

24:57

work. And I'm like, no, no, no, physically

25:01

and spiritually, you and that person are totally

25:03

different and that plant spirit might not have

25:05

been the right match for you. So I'm

25:07

sure you've seen that before. What's your take

25:09

on that? Yeah, absolutely. It's a relationship. It's

25:11

like, you know, your friend might love another

25:13

friend and you don't like that other friend

25:15

quite so much. It's just, it's not the

25:17

same resonance. Plants

25:20

have consciousness. Like we know this, this is,

25:22

this is science, you know, they're, they don't have

25:24

brains like we do, or they have brains that

25:26

are spread throughout their root

25:28

system where ours is one centralized place,

25:31

but they're alive, they have consciousness

25:33

and they have resonance and we

25:35

have resonance. Have you read Pam

25:37

Montgomery's book on spirit

25:40

plants, spirit communication? I

25:42

have not. Oh, it's one of the first

25:44

ones I read a long time ago. And then of course,

25:46

Steven Buehner has his book on similar

25:48

title, but about the resonance of the heart. Like

25:51

that's what these relationships are is beyond

25:54

thought, you know, below the level of conscious thought,

25:57

below the level, the

25:59

kind of intelligence that's specific to humans

26:01

that we think is so superior.

26:04

Yeah. It gets in our way and

26:06

trips us up a whole lot. So

26:08

that when we can drop

26:10

down into that level of knowing

26:14

and resonance is when we find, oh, well, that

26:16

plant didn't work for this, but this one sure

26:18

did. Yeah. I

26:21

always think of it as I have to

26:23

stop trying so hard to think about the

26:25

answer or trying so hard to intellectualize an

26:27

answer or a solution to something. And

26:30

I instead have to create the space for the

26:32

answer to just come through. Or I have to

26:34

connect with myself, connect with my heart, so that

26:36

I can hear the answer. I don't have to think it.

26:38

I just need to hear it. Oh my

26:41

gosh, that is my ongoing lesson.

26:45

I had an interesting experience

26:47

with plant communication during COVID.

26:51

I think COVID is when I started

26:53

to see myself as an herbalist in a different

26:55

way. I think it's because I

26:57

was actually so in my heart. I think it's

27:00

because I was so committed to being of service.

27:02

And it was a cause that

27:04

was so close to my heart. No, I followed

27:06

every single story you put up about your parents

27:08

during that time. Yeah. It

27:10

was channeling. It was a

27:12

different world. And I think, looking back, I

27:14

think I was able to access

27:17

a certain wisdom or connection with

27:20

certain plants and create remedies for my

27:22

community and eventually for my line because

27:24

I truly was so

27:26

in my heart and was just like, what can I

27:28

do to serve people right now and to give people

27:30

some medicine to get through this? Because we're all so

27:33

scared and so just kind of like

27:35

a deer in headlights in this moment. And

27:37

there was no ego involved. There was

27:40

no like, I want to make a great formula or I

27:42

want to, you know, like yada yada. It was just, how

27:44

can I be of service? And so the plants started speaking

27:46

to me at a rapid pace during

27:48

that time. And they also

27:51

started speaking to my fiance in an interesting way. I've

27:53

told this story before, maybe on the podcast. But when

27:55

we first got the news that my parents were sick,

27:57

we went into a local health food store and we

27:59

were. gonna just pick up a few extra tinctures

28:01

and things that we didn't have to

28:04

bring them to their house. And

28:06

he picked up corsadins and

28:08

he was like, your parents need this. And I

28:10

was like, what are you talking about? Like that's

28:12

for allergies or that's like, that's for

28:14

histamine. That's not, it's not for COVID. Like put

28:16

that down. And then eventually

28:19

orange peel started to really, really, really

28:21

speak to me. And I was seeing

28:23

orange peels everywhere. And I was putting

28:25

orange peels into my immunity that I

28:27

was making and telling people to brew

28:29

at home. And then all of

28:32

this science started coming out that confirmed both

28:34

what Nick had intuited in that health food

28:36

store and my deep connection

28:38

to orange peels during that time, showing

28:40

how the corsadin in orange peels helped,

28:42

you know, zinc to be absorbed and

28:45

to stop viral replication and how some

28:47

of the other bioflavonoids and

28:49

hisperidin, etc., in orange peel could actually

28:51

block the spike protein. So

28:53

that was an interesting moment. And I

28:55

also, as I was formulating a tincture

28:58

for some of the bacterial pneumonia that

29:00

I was seeing in certain people who

29:02

had both COVID and the secondary pneumonia,

29:05

I was formulating with herbs and I was like, I

29:07

know that this tincture is missing something, but I can't

29:10

figure out what it is. It's not strong enough. It's

29:12

not really gonna affect people the way

29:14

that it needs to. And I heard in my

29:16

head, a heroic disease requires

29:18

a heroic remedy. And I

29:20

just kept seeing poke in my head, just

29:23

kept seeing poke root. And I

29:25

was always really afraid to use poke root

29:27

with people because it's such a potent plant

29:29

and needs to be respected and used correctly.

29:31

And, you know, you have to really know

29:33

the individual, but something, you

29:36

know, poke told me essentially that like, this

29:38

is the time for me to step

29:40

up. And so I started to put poke root

29:42

in the tinctures that I was making at home

29:44

to give to my community and friends and family

29:46

members who were very sick as well. And

29:49

once I added poke root to the tinctures, people were getting

29:51

better in a matter of days. So it's

29:53

really interesting. That's amazing. And yeah, I

29:56

mean, poke root, you know, I've used

29:58

it for mastitis. I think. This is

30:00

probably what most people, I mean,

30:02

maybe just because I'm in like mom

30:04

community, but our drops of pokrut tincture,

30:06

you'll have a lump in your breast

30:08

that is so hard. The milk is

30:10

backing up. It can become infected if

30:12

it doesn't move out in time. It's

30:14

incredibly painful. You have a fever like

30:16

mastitis is mega if it gets away

30:19

from you. Four drops of

30:21

pokrut tincture and it can just be

30:23

gone. The best. And

30:25

that's why you have to, you know, people have to be very

30:27

careful, but I don't want anyone listening to this podcast to go

30:30

out and buy a pokrut tincture and start taking it.

30:32

It's a very low drop dose herb or low

30:34

dose herb to your point, just four drops can

30:37

affect microbial imbalances and

30:39

the lymphatic system in such a powerful

30:41

way. So I was just putting eight

30:43

drops of a pokrut tincture in my

30:45

two ounce lung tincture bottles for the

30:47

whole bottle. And even that was

30:49

just enough to have that synergistic effect. So

30:52

do you think then it was working

30:54

on the lymph system and that in

30:57

the lungs to just? I

30:59

think it was working on the lymph. And I

31:01

also think that there was, you know, poke is

31:03

just so good at clearing toxic heat. And

31:06

there's just once COVID gets to a certain level,

31:08

you know how it just it changes very quickly,

31:10

especially in a Chinese medicine lens. It's like starts

31:13

off as dry heat and then it's damp cold

31:15

and then it's damp heat the next day. Like

31:17

that's why it was so difficult to treat even

31:19

with Chinese medicine in China in the beginning because

31:22

you really have to formulate differently each day. So

31:25

I think once it gets to that stage where

31:27

it's lingering and it's stuck and it's creating like

31:29

that that film in people's lungs, you need a

31:32

strong herb like that that's going to clear

31:34

such toxic and damp heat. And

31:36

you know, regular damp clearing herbs are just never going to be

31:38

as strong as something like pokrut. Poke is really going to

31:40

poke it out of you. Yeah,

31:43

that's amazing. I remember too watching you

31:45

with yeah, making all the realizations about

31:47

the orange peel and stuff and I

31:49

just love the way your mind works.

31:52

You've got the science and you're able to translate

31:55

it for people. But then you also have like,

31:57

yeah, this intuitive understanding of things. And that was

31:59

like. so brilliant. I was just glued

32:01

to your stories during that time. I'm

32:03

so glad your parents are okay. If

32:05

you hadn't been in that space where

32:08

you were just of service, like I'm sure you

32:10

were in survival mode, but at the same time,

32:12

like your heart must have just been wide

32:14

open. Yeah, I think heart wise,

32:16

it was the best I ever felt in

32:19

an odd way. Like mentally and

32:21

emotionally it was some of the hardest times of

32:23

my life because I was so worried about my

32:25

parents, but heart space wise, I

32:27

don't think I ever felt that much gratitude

32:30

connection to community. I also just had people, you know,

32:32

messaging me each day, helping me out saying, Hey, I'm

32:34

an emergency room physician. How can I help you? I'll

32:37

give you some tips on how to advocate or, you

32:39

know, like I just had such a strong community

32:41

connection because again, we were all in something together.

32:43

And I think that was such a powerful

32:46

aspect of COVID happening to the world is that

32:48

we really had a reason to just all unite.

32:51

Yeah, those early, early days. And then, you know,

32:53

science started to come out and people are like,

32:55

well, I know more because this science is here

32:57

and I know more because of this. But in

32:59

that beginning, when we truly knew nothing and we

33:02

were just humans in the dark, those

33:04

early moments, I think were some of the most connected

33:06

I ever felt to my fellow humans.

33:09

So yeah, it was a really interesting

33:11

experience. Definitely heart space was wide open. And

33:13

I learned then that if I am going

33:15

to have the honor of speaking to plants

33:17

and having them speak to me that that's

33:20

the heart space I need to be in. They're not going to speak

33:22

to me when I'm in a place of ego. They're going

33:24

to speak to me when I'm in my heart. So

33:27

yeah, my formula that I am

33:29

proudest of is our extra potent

33:31

elderberry elixir. And I formulated that

33:34

during Standing Rock where they were

33:36

putting out calls for medicine. And

33:39

I was like, okay, these people, there are

33:41

mothers with babies out there in the cold,

33:43

you know, like I want to formulate the

33:45

most beautiful

33:47

potent heart warming, heart opening anti

33:49

viral elderberry medicine that I can

33:52

and I get just downloaded into

33:54

my brain because I was doing it from that

33:56

place of service. Not at all yet thinking I'm going

33:58

to turn this into a product. You

34:00

know just handwritten labels. I sent them with a

34:02

friend who was going out there I

34:04

don't know if I had really thought about that yet until you said

34:06

that but like yeah when you're creating from that place of service

34:09

It's just awesome to play That's

34:12

when you make the best medicine One

34:14

thing I want to talk to you about

34:16

is how plants impact us on not just

34:19

a physical level but on a spiritual and

34:21

emotional level, especially when it comes to things

34:23

like Setting boundaries and certain

34:25

things that we need to do for

34:27

our health that plant constituents can't

34:30

necessarily do for us But the spirit

34:32

of plants can push us to do

34:34

another plant that spoke to me in

34:36

in recent years was devil's club Do

34:38

you have a any relationship with devil's

34:40

club? No, it doesn't grow here I

34:43

know a lot of people have really profound experiences

34:45

with it Yeah I had originally

34:47

been very drawn to it during a

34:49

time where I was

34:51

dealing with a mix of some

34:54

PCOS esque hormone imbalances and also

34:57

severe codependency and I

35:00

was drawn to it because of the myth surrounding it

35:02

right I was drawn to it because of the storytelling

35:04

and because of the way that My

35:06

teachers described the doctrine of signatures and the fact

35:09

that there are these Huge

35:11

thorns on the plant that are

35:13

quite literally saying don't touch me This

35:15

is my boundary and that it teaches

35:17

people to do the same So I

35:19

was introduced to it as a spiritual

35:21

medicine for codependency and as something that

35:23

Protects you by helping you to see

35:25

the need for boundaries And

35:28

so I wanted to just kind of get your take

35:30

as an herbalist on What you've

35:32

seen that's possible when it comes to plants

35:35

impacting us on a spiritual level in this

35:37

way And if you think that plants are

35:39

actually treating our physical bodies or if they're

35:41

actually in reality treating our spirit and then

35:43

the physical Body is following what comes to me

35:45

is that they're bringing us Into

35:48

ourselves In

35:50

a deeper way bringing us into alignment

35:52

with our like original blueprint that gets

35:54

so Muddled in our

35:57

current culture. I'm always talking about how toxic

35:59

the ocean definitely

38:01

gave me heart before I had

38:03

to walk into those awful, horribly lit rooms with people

38:05

who don't care about me or know my situation or

38:07

want what's best for my child. So

38:11

for you, it was a medicine that connected you back to

38:13

your heart and just kind of kept you grounded in

38:15

the goal of the collective

38:17

good. I felt like I had a

38:20

friend, really. Like, it's so lonely in

38:22

those spaces. And I

38:24

just hated being in like a court setting and

38:26

the court building. And like, truly, like fluorescent, just

38:28

everything. I hated it. Having a yarrow, I mean,

38:31

this was a long time ago. I haven't thought

38:33

about this in a long time, but having my

38:35

yarrow flower essence with me, yeah,

38:37

helped me be like, Hey, this

38:39

is me. Everything

38:41

else happening right now is bullshit. And it's

38:43

going to be over with in an hour and it's

38:45

going to be over with in, you

38:47

know, years for now. Like I have myself and

38:50

I can ground into myself. Yeah, it's a really

38:52

powerful medicine that reminds you of who you are

38:54

and that you don't have to take on other

38:56

people's stuff and that this is

38:58

a fleeting moment. For me, though, the

39:01

best boundary medicine is herbal body oils.

39:04

And it doesn't matter which herb is

39:06

infused in the oil. It is the

39:08

fat on the skin that

39:10

draws a boundary around me and the rest

39:13

of the world. I always say

39:15

like, when you think of herbal medicine, people

39:17

think of teas and tinctures and all sorts

39:19

of things. But for me, herbal body oil,

39:21

by far, herbal body oils are my preferred

39:23

form of herbal medicine. I always

39:25

keep one. If I could only keep one, it would

39:28

be that. And that's part of the reason, like, you

39:30

know, I'm a really sensitive person. I'm an empathic person.

39:32

I'm an introverted person. And

39:35

so if I have a day where I'm

39:37

going to be out and about with big

39:39

energy, I will always oil my body in

39:41

the morning. And it's like it creates this

39:44

aetheric fear around me,

39:46

but it's not just aetheric. It

39:48

is physical. When fat hits the

39:50

nerves, it does create a barrier.

39:52

So like as, especially sound I'm really sensitive to,

39:54

as all these things are hitting me, they just

39:56

like glide off in a way that's not as

39:59

good as I am. they don't if I

40:01

didn't oil my body that morning. So

40:03

for me, herbal body oils are

40:05

the ultimate form of herbal boundary settings.

40:07

I love that. I was going to ask

40:09

you about herbal body oiling because I love

40:11

to work with St. John's Wort. Topically, I

40:13

love your St. John's Wort oil. And

40:16

just for those listening who perhaps haven't heard

40:18

of the power of herbal body oils, what

40:20

is an herbal oil? How does it differ

40:22

from essential oils? Because that's very important for

40:24

people to know. And how

40:27

did you get into oiling as

40:29

a form of herbal medicine? Yeah,

40:31

so very different from essential oils

40:33

and people often conflate the two

40:35

and often herbal body oil products

40:37

are just a carrier oil, grapeseed

40:40

oil, olive oil, whatever that someone has

40:42

dropped some essential oils into. And that

40:45

is just such an inferior product. You

40:47

know, I use some products that have

40:49

essential oils added for like scent medicine.

40:51

That's the only way I use essential

40:53

oils is for scent medicine. Or

40:56

if I have a headache, like right before we

40:58

get to this, I put some peppermint oil on

41:00

my neck and it helped like my headache

41:03

dissipated pretty quickly. But you know,

41:05

essential oils are just one part of the

41:07

plant. Plants have so many different

41:09

healing aspects to them. And the

41:11

essential oil is just one of

41:13

it. And, you know, super, super

41:15

distilled boiled down or however it's

41:17

extracted, there's different methods, but it's

41:19

very wasteful. And you only get

41:21

this one tiny little super concentrated

41:23

potent part of the plant. So

41:26

it could be hard on the kidneys and the

41:28

liver. And you know, this is why I don't

41:30

use them in my products, except for ascent medicine,

41:33

we have one a breast oil that has rose

41:35

essential oil in it if you want it. Whereas

41:37

when you are using a whole plant infused herbal oil,

41:39

you take the entire plant, you chop

41:41

it up, you pour your oil or whatever

41:44

fat you're using over it and let it infuse

41:46

for I do a month a

41:48

moon cycle. And that way you

41:50

get all of the medicine from the plant in

41:52

it and not just the little essential oil and

41:54

you can absolutely feel the difference. Like if you

41:57

took some grapeseed oil and drop

41:59

St. John's for essential oil in

42:01

it and rub that on your

42:03

body, it's not going to feel

42:05

nearly as healing, medicinal, nervous system

42:07

calming as if you do

42:09

a whole plant infused herbal oil. So

42:12

I learned about whole plant infused

42:14

herbal oils from my teacher, Cammie McBride.

42:16

I took a year-long apprenticeship with her

42:18

when my oldest daughter was a baby in 2007 and

42:21

I loved learning all the different modes of

42:25

medicine making, but the herbal body

42:27

oiling blew me away because

42:29

I was postpartum, I was young, I was

42:31

undernourished, I had been vegan throughout my pregnancy

42:34

and I was really recovering from years

42:37

of undernourishment. I had this fat

42:39

healthy baby but I was so skinny and pale

42:41

and weak and tired all the time and my

42:44

nervous system was just in a constant state of

42:46

overwhelm, very common for new mothers, very common for

42:48

anyone in our culture and I

42:51

could not believe the difference the

42:53

first time I oiled my body. I was

42:56

just blown away and I felt like why didn't

42:58

anyone tell me this before? Why didn't I grow

43:00

up in a culture where little children just they

43:03

know they can go over and pick up that

43:05

bottle of oil and feel better about themselves? Why

43:07

didn't my mother rub this oil on me when

43:09

I was little as I do for my kids

43:12

now? And I just knew like

43:14

this is the beginning of a

43:16

lifelong love affair. I'll do everything

43:18

I can to help spread the word of

43:20

herbal body oiling and I've

43:23

done that ever since and it's

43:25

endless. Like herbalism is vast, you know, there's

43:27

so many ways to play with it, so many different kinds

43:29

of fats and different plants you can put

43:31

in them as Cammie says for all

43:34

of human history. Human beings have

43:36

taken some kind of plant, some

43:38

kind of fat and put them

43:40

together and created healing balms, salves

43:42

and oils for their skin, body,

43:44

nervous system, sleep, children, childbearing, birth,

43:46

postpartum, pregnancy, it's just endless. I

43:49

love how you mentioned that the actual fat

43:51

itself, the oil itself is grounding to the

43:53

nerves and the nervous system and kind of

43:56

gives us that blanket or that armor of

43:58

nourishment but also the plant that

44:00

you choose to infuse into that oil as

44:03

an extra layer of nervous system restoration. So

44:05

can you tell us a little bit about

44:07

St. John's Wort and the benefits that St.

44:09

John's Wort oil specifically would have? Yes,

44:12

St. John's Wort is the queen

44:15

of herbal body oils. It's just everyone's

44:17

favorite if you've tried it. There's many

44:19

other amazing oils, but I tend to

44:21

add just a little bit of St.

44:23

John's Wort to them if I'm using

44:25

them. So Hypericum perforatum blooms at the

44:28

summer solstice. It is a pure

44:31

sun plant. It loves the sun

44:33

and it has this red

44:36

liquid in it called Hypericin. The Hypericin

44:38

is the main medicine that we're

44:40

getting when we use it. There's other ones, of

44:42

course, as there always is with plants. But

44:45

like if you crush the leaves of

44:47

the St. John's Wort plant, you'll get

44:50

this beautiful burgundy markings left on your

44:52

fingers. And that's the Hypericin. And so

44:54

it really brings into the body this

44:56

incredible warmth. Like it's so perfect for

44:58

the winter months because you've distilled the

45:01

summer solstice sunshine. And when you put

45:03

it on your body, it warms the

45:05

body immediately in a way that most

45:07

other oils don't. Actually, I would say all,

45:09

every time you oil your body, there's going

45:12

to be a warming effect, but it's more

45:14

profound with that. And it has this incredible

45:16

nerve soothing property. St. John's Wort

45:19

is specific to the nerves. You know,

45:21

a lot of people use it for

45:23

sciatica. I remember Cami years

45:25

ago saying that people called it the

45:27

chiropractor's herb. I know massage therapists will

45:30

always turn to it because it's going

45:32

to just create this incredible, incredible, I

45:35

need to do this right now, relaxation in

45:37

the nerves, the muscles, everything. And

45:40

of course, once we're in

45:42

that state, like for me, every single time

45:44

I've oiled my body, especially if I do

45:46

a full body oil, it's impossible to get

45:48

back into a sympathetic nervous system state. Once

45:50

I'm full it's a total

45:52

shift. And then of course, once that's

45:54

the healing state. So once you're there,

45:56

all sorts of other healings

45:58

can unfold. I want to

46:00

hear about your experiences with St. John's Wort.

46:02

Well, I have used St. John's Wort, of

46:05

course, topically as an oil for my nervous

46:07

system for times when I've just been anxious

46:09

and discombobulated and just needed to put myself

46:11

back together. And often I'll actually use it

46:13

in a bath. Like I'll put, you know,

46:15

a cap full of St. John's Wort oil

46:17

into my bath so that I can just

46:19

kind of let it soak into those open

46:21

pours, especially if I don't have the time

46:23

to kind of like sit there and love

46:25

on each and every part of my body.

46:27

I find that it really penetrates in hot

46:29

bath water. But I've used St. John's

46:31

Wort for seasonal depression for years and

46:33

years and years. And it's been one

46:36

of my greatest allies. And I think

46:38

it's very much a situation of matching

46:40

a plant to the human. Like

46:43

I am truly like St. John's Wort. I'm

46:45

a Leo. I need the sun to thrive.

46:47

I like to share that

46:49

happy, bright solar energy with people. I

46:51

don't bloom in the winter. I need

46:53

liver support. Like I'm someone with a

46:55

sluggish liver. So it's, you know, it's

46:57

so fascinating how St. John's Wort also

46:59

comes in that ability to speed up

47:01

certain liver pathways and enzymes. So it's

47:03

just been such an important mood

47:05

medicine for me. And I do grow it in

47:08

my backyard and it blooms of course, only in

47:10

the summer because I'm in New York, but I

47:12

have a small, small little plant

47:14

that I just tenderly care for. And I

47:16

always get like maybe over

47:18

the course of the summer, like a hundred

47:21

little flowers and I save them so that

47:23

I can make them as a tincture or

47:25

a tea in the wintertime. Wow.

47:27

And how long have you had that plant? Just

47:30

two years now. Okay. Because I wonder

47:32

if you're going to get the St. John's Wort beetle. You

47:34

might not. Oh, so we in summer

47:37

of 2021, my husband, Owen,

47:40

who's an incredible gardener, had this

47:42

whole gorgeous thriving St. John's Wort

47:44

garden on our property. I mean,

47:46

it was incredible. It was like the

47:49

most joyful, bountiful, beautiful thing.

47:51

And then last summer, 2022, it

47:53

just got decimated by the St.

47:56

John's Wort beetle. And

47:58

we finally started from other

48:00

people who grow this like herb farm and other

48:02

big companies like oh yeah you can't it

48:04

will like the second or third year it's not

48:07

gonna grow because the beetle will be established

48:09

by them so you have to like rotate fields

48:11

and get different sites and stuff

48:13

like that. Well maybe because mine's in

48:15

a pot and not in the earth. It's

48:17

been to you since it's not a huge

48:20

plot. Okay I'm very curious too because I'm

48:22

like it's just my like I saved my

48:24

few little buds so that in the winter

48:26

when I'm depressed I can make something out

48:28

of them. You reminded me about the liver

48:30

property. See this is like plants are so

48:32

multi-dimensional like I can't keep track of all

48:34

the especially things like St. John's Wort that

48:36

have so much healing to give and

48:39

I had shingles five years ago in

48:41

my trigeminal nerve in

48:43

my freaking head. It was

48:46

so intense and it took me like a week to

48:48

figure out what it was because I couldn't see the

48:50

wounds and I'm headache prone anyway so it was like

48:52

this was just the worst headache of all time. Anyway

48:55

as soon as I started taking St.

48:57

John's Wort tincture it turned around. Wow

49:00

I mean it's so antiviral too. You know

49:02

I have a tincture in my apothecary called

49:04

Mood Juice and it has St. John's Wort

49:06

and lemon balm since I love that combination

49:08

from Matthew Wood. There's many people that have

49:10

talked about it but St. John's

49:12

Wort and lemon balm together just the the antidepressant

49:15

qualities are really optimized

49:17

I think but I had someone or a

49:19

few people now use Mood Juice

49:21

for mood troubles and they came back

49:23

to us and said I had a

49:25

bunch of warts and my warts are

49:27

just gone. It's because St. John's Wort

49:29

and lemon balm are both so potent

49:31

and then I think in that always

49:33

makes me go back to like the

49:35

science brain and the biomedical model of

49:37

perhaps they're very much is a viral

49:39

element to cyclical depression as well and

49:41

perhaps there's some sort of microbiome or

49:43

viral biome modulating effects that the Sun

49:46

has on helping us win against the many

49:48

viruses that live within us and

49:50

maybe there's you know like there's that reason

49:52

why they work too but you know well we'll never

49:54

really know and it's all we know is that it

49:56

does work and that it calls to some of us

49:58

and it's such a gift. Yeah,

50:00

I was also using lemon balm during the shingles.

50:02

So those are my two, but more St. John's

50:04

for it. Were you in a really good mood? Probably,

50:07

because I wasn't in pain anymore

50:09

also, but it turned it around in

50:12

like a day. Wow. In

50:14

terms of the body oiling conversation, I wanted to ask

50:16

you, because I know you've talked about this before too,

50:18

if someone wants to make a body

50:20

oil at home and they want to get into this

50:23

practice, whether they want to use heat or sunlight or

50:25

whatever it is, what are

50:27

some good plants that they can start with other

50:29

than St. John's work, perhaps mug work, but there's

50:31

a certain type of quality that we should be

50:33

looking for. We want scented plants for the most

50:36

part. Yeah. First, I want to

50:38

say you can use sunlight, you can use

50:40

heat. I don't use either because both of

50:42

those things degrade the quality of oil. So

50:44

I use time. That's great to know. I always

50:46

set mine on the windowsill and thought you needed

50:48

the sunlight, but amazing. It's definitely

50:50

like people fight about that within the

50:52

herbalism community, but I'm just strongly on

50:54

the side of like, you know, I

50:56

worked at a natural foods co-op for

50:58

years. They opened a new store and

51:01

at first they had all the oils in this one place, but

51:03

the sun hit it every day. And so they had to move

51:06

the oil section because the sun, you know, it's

51:08

like we know this, we know that you keep

51:10

olive oil out of the sun and oils

51:12

degrade in sun. So I understand the thought

51:15

behind it is especially with like St. John's

51:17

ward is it's a solar medicine so the

51:19

sun will activate it, but I think time

51:21

activates it just as well. And

51:23

for me, like selling it on a mass scale,

51:25

I'm not going to do anything to

51:27

make it go bad. Faster.

51:30

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's

51:33

great to know. area

51:35

and are like, I can't put it on a windowsill. Good

51:38

to know that you can totally infuse a body oil

51:40

at home, just in a mason jar out of the

51:42

sun. So tell us more about the

51:44

process and what kind of plants we should be looking to

51:46

choose. So,

51:48

I mean, the process in essence

51:51

is so simple. You cut up the plant

51:53

and you cut it up finely because the

51:55

more edges of the plant come into contact

51:58

with the oil, the stronger the oil is going to be. be.

52:01

And then you pour the oil over it

52:03

and you let it sit. At least this is

52:05

how I do this. So I was taught

52:07

to do it. My teacher Cami does have a

52:09

method. So that's for fresh. Well, okay, so

52:11

now it gets complicated. I was gonna say

52:13

it's very simple in essence. But when you really

52:16

get into the weeds, then it starts to

52:18

get more complex. And my teacher Cami has an

52:20

amazing online course called handcrafted healing herbal body

52:22

oils, that if you really want

52:24

to get into this, I would say you take that.

52:26

But of course, you can find other videos and stuff

52:28

online. But Cami is the best. And

52:31

she really like stays with people through the

52:33

process and answers every question because you can

52:35

do it with like hops, you can do

52:37

it with ginger. I mean, there's you can

52:39

get into the most interesting plant oil

52:42

infusions. But yeah, for me, I've always

52:45

gone with St. John's wort,

52:48

mugwort, yarrow and evergreens. They

52:50

have this incredible sense they

52:52

all have amazing medicine. The

52:55

scent essential oils are preservative. So

52:57

you're adding that extra level of

53:00

the naturally occurring essential oils in the

53:02

plants, not adding little drops of essential

53:04

oils out of a bottle. But

53:07

all of those plants have strong

53:09

naturally occurring essential oils in

53:11

them that have the most amazing smell.

53:13

So yeah, we make a mugwort and

53:15

redwood herbal body oil that's just the

53:18

smell is so unbelievable. I used

53:20

to make pine oil. I haven't done that for

53:22

a while. But I love the evergreens because most

53:25

people's minds don't go there. They're pretty much

53:27

everywhere. I swear there's no herbs growing

53:29

around me like I'm in the

53:31

desert or wherever, but there's pretty much

53:33

evergreens everywhere. And it's very forgiving because

53:35

it does have such high essential oil

53:37

content. It's very hard for it to spoil

53:39

or go bad. And you

53:42

use fresh herbs in terms of everything

53:44

that you're saying here, fresh plant matter.

53:46

So Cami's been doing this for almost

53:48

40 years. And she she has her

53:50

list of plants that are much better

53:52

fresh plants that are much better dried

53:54

and plants that you should never do

53:56

fresh or never do dried. And

53:58

she has this really beautiful dry

54:00

plant method that involves

54:03

blending like in a blender the dry plants

54:06

with alcohol to further preserve

54:08

and to further bring out the

54:10

medicine and essential oils and

54:13

whatever oil you're using and we actually

54:15

use alcohol for our fresh plant infused

54:17

oils as well again because

54:19

it both adds preservation and

54:21

extracts more of the medicine that's really like

54:23

where you're up in your game and you're

54:25

getting serious start using

54:28

oil and learning about like a dried

54:31

plant blender method. Alcohol

54:33

is such an important solvent when it comes to

54:35

herbal medicine and I think a lot of people

54:37

are sort of turned off by it or can't

54:39

use it or they're just like why does alcohol

54:41

have to be in this it seems like it's

54:43

gonna be bad for me if there's alcohol especially

54:45

when it comes to tinctures but even

54:48

with my glycerin based tinctures we

54:50

always always extract in alcohol first

54:52

and then gently cook off the

54:54

alcohol and replace it with glycerin.

54:56

We never extract with glycerin because

54:58

alcohol is just this incredible solvent

55:00

for so many powerful alkaloids and

55:03

medicines in these plants so I love that you're

55:05

also utilizing that in a body

55:08

oil extracting method. Yeah

55:10

it really is like a next-level method. At the end

55:13

of the day we got to

55:15

do it the the alcohol extraction way

55:17

for most plants and you know it's

55:19

an interesting reframe of alcohol in

55:21

general because it can be so detrimental and then

55:24

it can also be so powerful when it comes

55:26

to medicine so it's an interesting duality

55:29

moment. Yeah totally.

55:32

Another question I wanted to ask earlier was do you

55:34

ever find that a plant

55:36

doesn't come to us until we're ready?

55:38

Like it's a plant won't reveal itself

55:41

to us or to a client or

55:43

a friend or whatever it is until

55:45

that person is kind of ready to

55:47

shoulder the ripple effects that

55:49

that plant may have on their life. Like I

55:51

even go back again to Devil's Club with this

55:54

because once you start working with boundary medicine people

55:57

are ripped away from your life or you're ripping them out of

55:59

your life or it's like like things just happen

56:01

and like sometimes that

56:03

level of teaching, you're just not quite ready

56:06

for. Yeah, I

56:08

mean, I would say that's like kind of true for

56:10

all of life, right? We're only

56:13

open to experiences when we're ready to be open

56:15

to them. But in herbalism,

56:18

you know, there'll be like trending

56:20

plants all of a sudden, like everyone's

56:22

talking about ghost pipe or a cotillo

56:25

or like the hot, sexy plant. And

56:27

you're like, I don't really have a

56:29

call to that. Yeah. But

56:31

then later you might actually have a really incredible

56:33

experience with it and deepen that

56:35

relationship. Exactly. I learned about

56:37

so many plants in school where I was like,

56:40

yeah, whatever, like cool. I'll take my notes, whatever.

56:42

And then later in life, I was like,

56:45

oh, now I see you. Like I did

56:47

not see you before. I am sorry. Like

56:49

I did not revere you the way I

56:51

should have. And that's when I'm ready

56:54

for it. And I think it's same goes for people. We're

56:56

not ready for certain people in our lives until we make

56:58

that space or get to a certain level and

57:00

certain plants and people are both teachers

57:03

and provide tough lessons sometimes. So

57:06

intense. I wanted to ask you what role

57:09

do you see for herbalism in our modern

57:11

day healthcare system? Cause I know that again,

57:14

you do talk a lot about the

57:16

dominant culture and how broken a lot

57:18

of it is, including our healthcare system

57:20

and healthcare culture. And I'd love

57:22

to know just what you see for the future

57:24

in terms of integrating herbalism, if that's possible. That's

57:27

a great question. I mean, at this moment, I

57:29

would say it does not feel possible. I

57:31

would say that the whole medical system

57:34

is extremely hostile

57:37

towards quote alternative

57:39

therapies. And I always have to

57:41

put that word in quote because of course, plant

57:44

medicine is the oldest form of

57:47

medicine on earth, 99.9999% of our ancestors, that

57:52

was medicine and modern pharmaceutical

57:55

medicine and modern medicine complex, which

57:57

of course saves lives. And it's

57:59

amazing. really is brand new in

58:01

human history, brand, brand, brand new.

58:04

And, you know, for economic reasons, starting

58:07

with the creation of the American Medical

58:09

Association and John D Rockefeller in the

58:11

1800s, that system has

58:13

demonized any form of, quote,

58:16

alternative therapy. So at

58:18

this moment, it does not seem to me like there's

58:22

ever going to be an opening.

58:24

And for myself and most people

58:26

I know, we just operate completely

58:28

outside that system unless there's emergency.

58:31

I don't know. What do you think? Do you

58:33

see an integration in the future? I

58:36

think that that ability to kind of translate

58:38

the science and be like, Hey, this is

58:40

what, you know, cultures have been

58:42

saying for thousands of years. Or, you know,

58:44

I heard you once on a podcast episode

58:46

talk about Ayahuasca and how there are thousands

58:49

of plants in a jungle. How could they

58:51

possibly have known let's put these two random

58:53

roots together? Cause only together will they create

58:55

this beautiful psychedelic medicine. And in these amounts,

58:57

and if you click at this exact way,

59:00

it's not like they, you know, sat there

59:02

and tried the thousands of different combinations that

59:04

are possible. So it's like, there is some

59:06

kind of reverence that has to be given

59:08

to that ancient wisdom. And so nowadays, I

59:11

think because science is

59:13

perhaps looking into, again, just

59:15

like plant constituents or clinical

59:18

trials a bit more, there's a

59:20

doorway to where we can touch

59:22

the right medical professionals who really do want

59:24

to do well and by their

59:26

patients and do right by this world and be

59:29

open to new information and are willing to be

59:31

open. I think that's our bridge to get there,

59:33

but you do then have to almost switch between

59:35

identities, like the identity of you that's going like

59:38

willing to play in that arena and is like

59:40

going to almost have to buck up and try

59:42

to prove yourself and like, Hey, but I know

59:44

this study, but I know this, but you can

59:46

take me seriously versus the part of you that's

59:49

like, screw all of that. I'm just

59:51

going to go lay in the grass and talk

59:53

to plants and just use my intuition and like

59:56

never interact with that system again.

59:58

Like it's very difficult. because they

1:00:00

do feel so separate. But I'm hoping because

1:00:02

I've been exposed to functional

1:00:04

practitioners and had the privilege and the

1:00:07

pleasure of working with some really talented

1:00:09

functional or integrative practitioners, I do hope

1:00:11

that we'll have more of those humans

1:00:13

in the future that kind of have

1:00:15

that bit of awakening and knowing and

1:00:17

want to understand and

1:00:19

want to lean into that part of themselves that's

1:00:22

telling them follow your intuition and not just

1:00:24

studies. Yeah. And I

1:00:26

mean, who knows what human society will look

1:00:28

like in 100 years? You know,

1:00:30

this is something I think about all

1:00:33

the time. I think probably most of us do,

1:00:35

especially with children though, it does

1:00:37

feel like there's room for

1:00:39

radical change. I want to go

1:00:41

back to the ayahuasca thing too for anyone who hasn't

1:00:43

heard that, just to be clear that when people

1:00:46

are asked, how did you guys know to

1:00:48

combine these two plans? Was

1:00:50

it trial and error? Was it, you know, however many

1:00:52

hundreds of thousands of combinations you could have tried, they

1:00:54

always say, no, the plants told

1:00:56

us. And that's true, like across

1:00:58

cultures for how did you know that this plant

1:01:01

was helpful for malaria that plant told

1:01:04

us? Again, like my fiance

1:01:06

is like that. So I swear he was born a

1:01:08

shaman. He was like, I've been having a lot of

1:01:10

nightmares. I'm going to drink parsley tea and I'm like,

1:01:13

parsley tea. Okay. And he's

1:01:15

just like, yeah, like it just called to me. It

1:01:17

just told me to drink it. And it like

1:01:19

completely cured his nightmares. And I've told that to

1:01:21

people on Instagram and people message me all the

1:01:23

time. Like I use Nick parsley tea hack for

1:01:25

nightmares and I totally stopped having them. And

1:01:28

it's like he just constantly is like, Oh yeah,

1:01:30

just use that herb for this. And then I'm

1:01:32

like, you're an herbless. And he's like, no, no,

1:01:34

nevermind. Like he doesn't want to be seen for

1:01:36

it. And that's why they talk to him because

1:01:38

he doesn't care. And there's always been people like

1:01:40

him. Yeah. And so those would be the people

1:01:42

telling you take that and then over time the

1:01:44

experiences add up and it becomes canon.

1:01:47

Exactly. Exactly. And in order to believe

1:01:49

in that paradigm, we have

1:01:51

to believe that people like that are

1:01:53

possible and that we all have that

1:01:56

ability within us. Right. And so that

1:01:58

gets into a tricky wrong. because I think

1:02:00

a lot of people don't believe that they

1:02:02

can connect in that way or have closed

1:02:05

themselves off. It's really work to remember and

1:02:07

know what we're all capable of and that

1:02:09

we're in constant relationship with nature.

1:02:11

Nature is just waiting for us to remember. We are

1:02:14

nature. Yes, we are

1:02:16

nature. I'd love to

1:02:18

know a current plant that you're having a

1:02:20

love affair with, what's calling to you and

1:02:22

what's in your personal apothecary right now? I

1:02:27

was looking at a catalog today of

1:02:29

plants, seeds, and I

1:02:31

almost got teary-eyed because I'm so

1:02:33

ready for spring. We

1:02:36

just got through this two-week snowstorm. We were snowed

1:02:38

in for two weeks. I feel like I haven't

1:02:40

seen anything growing in so long. I'm like, oh,

1:02:42

if you asked me this question in a month

1:02:44

or two, I'd have so many answers, but right

1:02:46

now I feel almost barren and bereft of

1:02:49

my plant allies. But

1:02:51

of course, there's the ones that I'm using in my

1:02:53

kitchen. I'm

1:02:55

really feeling like I want

1:02:57

to share that bee pollen is something

1:03:00

I'm just having such a

1:03:02

love affair with right now when

1:03:04

you get the really good soft

1:03:06

grains. Actually, the ones I have

1:03:09

are from St. John's where plants. Wow.

1:03:13

They're very orange, very

1:03:15

orangey compared to other mixes that I've

1:03:17

seen. I just feel like

1:03:19

it's such deep medicine for my

1:03:21

body. I'm thinking how it's a plant

1:03:24

product, but it would not come to

1:03:26

us if it weren't for animals. There's

1:03:29

such medicine in bees. Every

1:03:32

evening I have my bedtime snack is

1:03:35

a piece of raw cheese with some honey on

1:03:37

it. I was just going to

1:03:39

say that I saw someone on Instagram eating

1:03:41

raw cheese with bee pollen and honey on

1:03:44

it. I never saw that snack before. I

1:03:47

thought I made it up, but it's like people

1:03:49

in the pro metabolic space talk about it. I'm

1:03:51

sure many of us have landed on the same

1:03:53

thing. I'm

1:03:59

just like in excess. to see when

1:04:01

I'm eating that. The bee pollen is so...

1:04:03

I'm gonna have to eat that tonight now.

1:04:06

Yeah, do it. Raw cheese,

1:04:08

raw honey, bee pollen. I mean, kind of

1:04:11

the best of everything. Oh my goodness. Well,

1:04:13

thank you so much for just having a

1:04:15

little herby conversation with me here and teaching

1:04:17

us about body oils and St.

1:04:20

John's word and your first experiences with plant

1:04:22

communication and I'd love for you to tell

1:04:24

our audience where they can find you and

1:04:26

how they can connect with you. Okay,

1:04:29

thank you so much Olivia.

1:04:31

This was lovely. So mythicmedicine.love

1:04:34

is our website. We have our

1:04:36

line of herbal elixirs and

1:04:39

oils and earth essences

1:04:43

and I'm mythicmedicine on Instagram and then

1:04:45

I have a podcast as well called

1:04:47

Medicine Stories that you can find, you

1:04:49

know, wherever you find your podcasts. Love

1:04:51

it. Love it so much. Thank

1:04:54

you again for being on. This was wonderful.

1:04:56

Thank you so much Olivia.