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1:04

Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

1:08

Hello and welcome to the latest of

1:10

our special guest episodes of When It

1:12

Hits The Fan with me, David Yelland.

1:14

And me, Simon Lewis. Now, on this

1:17

podcast, do you often hear us talking

1:19

about how to avoid career destroying disasters

1:21

that see you or your company or

1:23

your government across the front pages and

1:25

on the TV news headlines? We

1:27

hope you've also been helped by our

1:30

short episodes of quick wins. How to

1:32

avoid fan-hitting moments in your personal life.

1:34

But imagine if your job is to

1:36

create those fan-hitting moments and the bigger

1:38

the better. Here

1:41

on When It Hits The Fan,

1:43

we often talk about crises as

1:45

if they should be avoided at

1:47

all costs. But I guess today

1:49

is living proof that walking towards

1:51

the fan, braving its cut and

1:53

thrust Is often a

1:55

hallmark of people that affect change.

1:58

Maybe Even a necessary strategy. The

2:00

a few aim is to shake things up

2:02

a little. Dorothy Burns

2:04

early career was on local papers

2:06

and her big break was when

2:08

she joined the World In Action

2:10

team at Grenada Television in Manchester.

2:13

of course becoming at the time

2:15

the only woman on the team.

2:17

Her career later took her to

2:19

Channel Four Dispatches where she was

2:21

a commissioning editor. She was also

2:23

the editor of I See Visa

2:25

Big Story and had of News

2:28

and Current Affairs and Channel Four

2:30

and lazily editor at large on

2:32

the same channel. I think it's

2:34

sad to say that Dorothy has

2:36

a reputation as fearless and pioneering

2:38

on the having less Tv now

2:41

is what they call a head

2:43

of house at the University of

2:45

Cambridge where she is the Presidents

2:47

of Murray Edwards College. Oh. And

2:49

he also called a serving prime minister

2:52

a known liar and created all right

2:54

oh fan hitter. But. More of

2:56

that later. Dorothy. Burn! welcome

2:58

to when it hits the fan.

3:00

Thanks to join Yes, thank you

3:02

very much for having me a

3:05

list interesting for a journalist to

3:07

talk to people from: P R

3:09

the other side of the other

3:11

side dioxide. Well

3:13

it's great to have a with us

3:15

and maybe to start them in part

3:17

of the east. Also tell of oh

3:19

well the see you have distinguish role

3:21

is to make bold, controversial programs to

3:23

sake assumptions and saddens the status quotes

3:25

and I'm just wondering whether that's. Not a

3:28

bad way to describe yourself. Well, I

3:30

do like to shake things

3:32

up on I do like

3:34

controversy so long as I'm

3:37

on the site of Rights

3:39

and justice, and it doesn't

3:41

bother me being in the

3:43

eye of the storm so

3:46

to speak, so long as

3:48

people are not cruel. I

3:51

have some ceilings but I'm not

3:53

so frightened person know that comes

3:55

across very clear if I'm I'm

3:58

guessing that and you seem to

4:00

someone who actually almost likes. To.

4:03

Walk towards fan hitting moments which I

4:05

think it's a compliment but the recognize

4:07

that. On the Ice and a

4:09

lot of journalism. And I

4:11

many journalists to be

4:13

pusillanimous and I sing

4:15

the journalism suit be

4:17

much sprays her and

4:20

broadcast journalism should be

4:22

months. Fraser I think

4:24

that it's is the

4:26

role of journalists to

4:28

challenge people. And

4:30

they may, well, not

4:32

lighter but isn't. Do

4:34

it. And the ways

4:36

in which I have

4:38

challenge people haven't been

4:40

politically from the less

4:42

toward the right. Particularly,

4:44

they've been silencing assumptions.

4:46

Actually one of the most

4:49

controversial programs I ever made

4:51

was censored by Peter Hitchens.

4:53

a cold. Nelson Mandela beneath

4:55

the halo and you can

4:58

criticize and nobody in the

5:00

world even Mother Teresa of

5:02

Calcutta. And for a tell

5:05

you say something about Nelson

5:07

Mandela. Being may be wonderful,

5:09

but not. A very good president

5:12

and then things really hit the

5:14

fan. You to Dorothy

5:16

about rights and justice and so on. And

5:18

one of the things I've learned in the

5:21

couple decades his or less journalism is that

5:23

all the people that you may programs about

5:25

many of them with sitting rooms and they

5:27

would think that they were right and the

5:29

germs Wrong maps. I'm not saying that's the

5:32

case, but I think to assume that journalists

5:34

are always right and people on the other

5:36

side where we are now in the pale

5:38

wells er, I was wrong is a mistake.

5:41

Agendas I don't expect you to gray, but

5:43

have you ever thought about. That. I.

5:46

Don't. Think that Pr people are

5:48

all bad as well. That's

5:50

a religious or I won't

5:52

be going era. But the

5:55

fact is that they are.

5:57

Paid to speak. In

5:59

fact, The pair of a

6:01

person or a proton? yeah

6:04

I need I think Therefore,

6:06

it is very important that

6:08

journalists nearly blew kittens the

6:11

truth of what they're saying.

6:13

And I also think it's

6:15

very important that journalists point

6:18

out to people job of

6:20

who they are and where

6:22

they're coming from. I think

6:25

knocks essential and I think

6:27

I get very annoyed by

6:29

lazy. Journalism. Yeah, they peu pr

6:32

people on to talk about something

6:34

and don't tell the leaders the

6:36

listener so the viewers this is

6:38

actually a Pr person know I

6:40

agree. I agree there. but I've

6:43

learned over the years though that

6:45

there's a lot talk about political

6:47

bias and until about an hour

6:49

later because she been extremely courageous

6:51

and pointing allows. But what's often

6:54

not talks about is whether the

6:56

sounds of journalism and bull cast.

6:59

Basically. Investigated Broadcasts has gone up a

7:01

gone down over the years. I've

7:04

been in television journalism

7:06

for decades. And I

7:09

would say to day

7:11

he levels. Of accuracy

7:13

are much higher on.

7:15

That's partly because it

7:17

comes in for so

7:20

much criticism. In the

7:22

past for a were

7:24

afraid Dolls was being

7:26

sued for libel. You

7:28

know what happens when

7:30

you make. A. Program is

7:33

thought Pr. People nearly

7:35

all men in often. They must say

7:37

that strange isn't it is. This is.

7:40

Matt Hughes Trying to

7:42

pay off the slightest

7:44

little mistake you may

7:46

and then it's they

7:48

can find you made

7:50

the smallest era they

7:52

say overlooked that program.

7:55

Was proven to be

7:57

untrue. In the past

7:59

we had a much

8:01

for your Rain for

8:03

example. I did to programs

8:06

as a researcher about corporal

8:08

time and war crimes. Just

8:10

for World and that person.

8:13

We didn't give you my right to

8:15

reply on the day after the first

8:17

program ones how he was the President

8:19

avast. Yeah, name to where I'm

8:21

at my leisure number and

8:23

some pr person from the.

8:25

Australian embassy rang up and said

8:28

we understand that last night. You

8:31

made a program saying our President

8:33

was a war criminal. And

8:35

I said yes, that's right and they

8:37

said we missed it. Could you send

8:39

us a so fast as you mister

8:42

you are look out and put the

8:44

phone down. You could never do. That

8:46

the world is Times and America as

8:48

her monk room for your about I

8:50

may have one. the things change and

8:52

with a how away you are discussing

8:54

the I see around on data bases

8:56

are far more people on the Pr

8:58

signed in the sense that same longer

9:00

than there are in the media. I

9:02

mean they're are I would say overall

9:04

maybe three times as many I mean

9:06

by Kurt Waldheim store. Amazing just for

9:08

me. Now they will be Law Farms

9:10

So how much more difficult is it

9:12

to be an investigative journalists now than

9:14

he was when you so much. More

9:16

difficult. Because you are besieged

9:18

by. These people sometimes

9:21

they employed to companies

9:23

to firms of lawyer.

9:27

And they try to tell you.

9:29

To use. With. Complaints

9:31

before your program has

9:33

gone out. And then

9:36

asked to words they might send.

9:38

To. The Hundred Complaints. And

9:41

this has have really

9:43

stultify. An effect on

9:45

journalism. but. It also makes

9:48

it very expenses because you

9:50

have to employ lawyers, you

9:52

have to spend hours and

9:54

hours and I think it

9:56

is right that we should

9:59

be absolute. The accurate

10:01

but. These are people who

10:03

are trying to suppress truth. Let's be us.

10:05

You have to be pretty resilient, have done

10:07

the jobs you've done ethically. To be headed

10:10

a news network is your was. It is

10:12

something that you kind of ball way though

10:14

you knew you had a did it come

10:16

upon you. When you remove these top jobs

10:19

they just have to be resident. I think

10:21

if you're a woman. In

10:23

journalism you have to

10:25

learn. To be resilient

10:28

very early on and.

10:31

All. The time you're having to

10:33

stick up for yourself. And

10:35

it gradually makes you

10:38

more and more resilient

10:40

and therefore when some.

10:43

Man com sat you attacking you

10:45

in some way you've been attacked

10:47

said many times you know you've

10:50

been physically attacked. The things that

10:52

wants a law known as as

10:54

yeah, go on them. And I

10:56

think about another incident where Appear

10:59

of the Realm approach Channel Four.

11:01

And said he and

11:03

a group of his

11:05

friends. Regularly. Met

11:07

the B B C several. Times

11:09

a year to discuss Israel

11:12

with them because he and

11:14

his friends were a group

11:16

of people who are very

11:18

concerned about Israel. And

11:20

so they wanted to do

11:22

the same with me, say

11:24

wanted to meet me and

11:27

my top executives regularly to.

11:29

Talk about Israel. I'm I said well

11:31

I've got bad news for your channel

11:33

for we haven't got loads of top

11:36

executives. There's only me and

11:38

I'm busy. Sons A said

11:40

this pierre dead Now said

11:42

this is outrageous. We meet

11:44

the B B C and

11:46

we want to meet you.

11:48

I'm I said excuse me

11:50

if I go about spending

11:52

my time meeting men on

11:54

their friends. Were with

11:56

the end side get out the phone call

11:58

from a man on a. Me

12:01

and my friends were really interested in

12:03

coverage of especially the south. I

12:05

thought Conference of Israel? Yeah,

12:07

so. No, I'm not meeting you

12:10

and in the end up going on

12:12

about it and I said blue, I

12:14

have to decide at night what my

12:16

going to do. I'm a single parent.

12:18

Am I going to go home and

12:20

spend my time with my daughter? Or

12:22

am I going to hang out with

12:25

men and their friends? Let me to

12:27

think about. Yep, Yeah, yeah. I'm going

12:29

to spend my time with my daughter.

12:31

What you probably don't realize is that they

12:34

would have been a whole what's called an

12:36

appeal business a cascade of communications behind that.

12:38

So if you'd said yes there was a

12:40

been schools if not hundreds of people in

12:43

Israel around the community in in the in

12:45

the Uk would have known everything you'd you'd

12:47

said and that's not peculiar to to the

12:50

Israeli lobby. that's how Pr works his ass

12:52

and will not obvious and was a newspaper

12:54

this s I never realized when appeal person

12:56

cool me and when came to see me

12:59

with this conversation. But. It's not

13:01

just conversations as a in a paper

13:03

work and documents sent about anything that's

13:05

been said anyway. Let's talk about

13:07

your biggest fan hitting moment, your Mactaggart

13:10

speech and him her and twenty nineteen.

13:12

To give some context, this is quite

13:14

a moment in the media world with

13:16

the industry gather together in one place.

13:19

Previous Mctaggart some been given by Rupert

13:21

Murdoch is my don't James Murdoch other

13:23

people not cool my dog Anyway, you

13:25

started off when you stood up by

13:28

claiming the you a quote unquote the

13:30

first old lady to deliver the Mctaggart

13:32

lecture subtext only them and stay in

13:34

the industry The woman leave and again.

13:37

In your words, the man, move

13:39

on to their Mbs, obese and

13:41

fresh young wives and the coast

13:43

a real fans hitter was what

13:45

you then went on to say

13:47

about that then Prime Minister Boris

13:49

Johnson. Going. Back decades

13:51

Johnson has lied about the

13:53

he is. Ninety.

13:56

Ninety One. He. You bureaucrats

13:58

the jack to tell you

14:00

Demands for smaller condoms? rubbish.

14:03

The. A you set rules on the

14:05

shape of bananas. Nonsense.

14:08

Here. Is what we all need to decide.

14:11

What? Do we do when a known

14:13

liar becomes our prime minister? I

14:16

believe that we need to

14:18

start calling politicians are as

14:20

liars when they lie. If

14:22

we continue to be so

14:24

polite, how will our viewers

14:26

know that politicians are lion?

14:29

Dorothy. Town was a bit about the background

14:31

the preparation for the spurs. How are you

14:34

last? Where did you think when you were

14:36

Austin? How quickly did you decide to schools?

14:38

Prime Minister. A new law. Well,

14:41

I was asked quite late

14:43

on because they actually wanted

14:45

the very same as I

14:48

am female comedian to do

14:50

it and then eyes and

14:52

see probably were. So forty

14:54

five minutes of jokes line

14:56

that's not going to work

14:58

and I think they were

15:01

a bit desperate so I

15:03

saw Ozil expects. Me to

15:05

be really really serious cause I'm

15:07

the head of news and current

15:09

far. As soon as they can

15:11

even three or four jokes out

15:13

to me though, be grateful. And

15:15

I did think a lot about

15:18

what I wanted to say. and

15:20

it was really important to me

15:22

that I talked about sexism because

15:24

I had suffered some unseen women

15:26

suffer it in the industry. At

15:28

the last minute I decide to

15:30

zoc about the men oppose, but

15:32

most of. All the wants to talk

15:34

about truth is. And talk

15:36

about how politicians were

15:39

avoiding appearing on television

15:41

to be held to

15:43

account. and I thought

15:45

that was very bad.

15:47

For democracy because.

15:49

Three quarters of people then

15:52

on know rely on. Television

15:54

for their news. And

15:57

if they don't hear their

15:59

politicians. The nailed to a

16:01

common then how did they judge

16:03

the truth of what they're saying

16:06

on? I pointed out that Margaret

16:08

Thatcher see appear to and did

16:11

very long interviews and I was

16:13

remember Ken Clarke saying it was

16:15

just regarded as part of the

16:18

job. If. You were in the

16:20

cabinet. You. Have to put yourself

16:22

up for it. But. Actually,

16:25

I also believe that lots

16:27

of people sing all politicians

16:29

alliance they'll say oh all

16:31

politicians ally as that that

16:33

to the not the truth.

16:35

Politicians are people who avoids

16:37

the truth but they don't

16:39

necessarily out and out lie

16:41

and indeed the reason they

16:43

don't want to go on

16:45

T V is the you

16:47

see them square meng if

16:49

think they're in a big

16:52

interviews because they know they

16:54

can't fly. Lie but they

16:56

don't want to tell the

16:58

truth. But then along came

17:00

Boris Johnson and he was.

17:03

A whole different sort

17:05

of person. He

17:07

did not play by

17:09

the rules that other

17:11

politicians played by. Right

17:13

from the very beginning

17:16

of his career he

17:18

lied out or know

17:20

he lost his first

17:22

job. As. A journalist

17:24

on the Times for

17:26

printing a story that

17:28

was untrue and he

17:31

was. Sacked by the

17:33

then. Conservative leader I'm

17:35

Michael Howard from his

17:37

job as as as

17:39

as a spokesperson for.

17:41

Lion and now he

17:44

was Prime Minister. This

17:46

was something we hadn't

17:48

experienced before on. So

17:50

I asked the question,

17:52

what do we do

17:54

Know that we have

17:56

a a liar as

17:58

Prime minister. And

18:01

what's interesting? Is

18:03

that lots of people in

18:05

broadcast journalism were asking that

18:07

question but none of them

18:10

was asked in it publicly

18:12

On I felt it was

18:14

important is all the journalists

18:16

were talking about it. Prize

18:18

at play. That. We should

18:20

talk about it publicly. Well I think

18:22

that's very interesting because I'd like to

18:25

know When you finish fine tune your

18:27

speech, put your coffee cup to one

18:29

side and thought this is the speeds

18:31

I'm gonna give or receive. Gotten that

18:34

from journalist in since did you come

18:36

to know the distributor Gove any line

18:38

It was that phrase about the prime

18:40

minister being alone. Law? well it surprised

18:43

me, floats around call arsed because it

18:45

was true. And of

18:47

so it was an

18:49

absolute statement of fact.

18:52

I believe democracy depends.

18:54

On the Truth Yukon

18:57

Ah ah healthy. Democracy

18:59

In a world of politicians

19:01

lion, the two things do

19:03

not go together. I didn't

19:05

call him a notorious lion

19:07

lip. I didn't call him

19:09

a serial liar. That might

19:12

have been a bit rude

19:14

and I wouldn't be upset

19:16

the Prime minister. I just

19:18

called him a node liar

19:20

which is for a year.

19:22

And he backed it up with evidence Yes,

19:24

Will got lost in the mix. Of course

19:27

is that you also called Jeremy Corbyn a

19:29

coward for not giving interviews. Are you did

19:31

attack both. The. Then Labour leader

19:33

and the then and so to Prime

19:35

Minister by. I want to move on

19:37

to the reaction to the speech because

19:39

he was big on his up and

19:41

the most aggressive comments on that mactaggart

19:43

like to was a piece in the

19:45

Daily Mail on the Twenty Six cause.

19:49

I will be good. Who have

19:51

been Theresa May's Director of Communications

19:53

and who you are prisoners in

19:56

the Speech time? When he was

19:58

Theresa May's Narrative Communications. I've

20:00

got the Daily Mail article here

20:02

and he's rather rude about you.

20:05

He says towards the end of

20:07

that column, addressing you directly your

20:09

job is to see counts and

20:11

explain the opinions of others to

20:14

make sense of a complicated world

20:16

he carries on. My advice is

20:18

to focus on that, rather than

20:20

add your own contribution to the

20:23

already toxic levels of public debate

20:25

in this country. We. Should say

20:27

isn't as much a wreck on the

20:29

coast where we give later became a

20:31

ah darn to the Bbc and is

20:33

nicer the moment. but he was serious

20:35

that he would cold serving prime minister

20:38

unknown liar and so was the Daily

20:40

Mail. Way you surprised by that? would

20:42

you think about that while. I

20:44

was surprised that Theresa

20:46

May's P R Man

20:48

didn't like me criticizing

20:50

Theresa May. A Not

20:52

only did I criticized

20:54

Theresa May, I specifically

20:57

criticize her useless P

20:59

R Amazed I said

21:01

that! Ah, plan of

21:03

not appearing. On T V.

21:05

So the if people didn't see a

21:07

they would think she was upset liter

21:10

yes. Whoever thought of that plan

21:12

who was may be. Partly, Robert

21:14

Gibbs made a mistake because she

21:16

got voted out. Robbie

21:18

get been That article though

21:21

completely misunderstand what journalism is.

21:23

He says that it's the

21:25

role of the journalists to

21:27

explain the opinion of other

21:29

as know It's not as

21:31

liberal as a journalist to

21:34

seek out the facts and

21:36

tell the truth if you

21:38

hear a races speed not

21:40

my job to say. Now

21:42

let me look in to

21:44

the psychology of this racist

21:47

blow. It's my job

21:49

to tell you whether what

21:51

that races blue is saying

21:53

is true. And my

21:55

point about Boris Johnson was

21:58

he. Often says thing which

22:00

are not true and if

22:02

he's the prime minister. And.

22:05

We're not necessarily going to be

22:07

able to trust him to tell

22:09

the truth. What? Will happen.

22:11

For example, if there's an emergency.

22:13

oh wait a minute, there was

22:16

an emergency as safe as close

22:18

as it on T To all

22:20

this about things impose it Could

22:23

we really trust everything he said

22:25

where the east things all found

22:27

to be true. Him. Being.

22:30

In the i have a Storm is quite challenging

22:32

and me what was it like personal Vesuvius Robbie

22:34

good articles with a lot of stuff. How did

22:36

it feel dirty? Cause for the all on Sunday

22:38

the center of attention and I'm a journalist. I'm

22:40

used to be behind the scenes. What what was

22:42

it like to personally. My little bits

22:44

of same well of the

22:46

sun didn't editorial condemning me

22:48

on that people have had

22:50

gone to school with said.

22:53

Oh I wonder what you were doing?

22:55

Ah. But actually, the

22:57

other thing. I said in the

22:59

speech was the one that had people

23:02

coming up to me in the street

23:04

because I talked about. the men

23:06

a pause and walking down the

23:08

street and as a number the

23:10

next day women cat coming up

23:13

to me going thank you thank

23:15

you for talking about the men

23:17

oppose with regard to. Boris

23:20

Johnson. And calling him

23:22

a known liar Several journalists said

23:24

to me it's true, that is

23:26

a lie are you shouldn't have

23:28

said to other people's said to

23:30

me I would like to call.

23:33

Boris Johnson ally and but. The.

23:35

Bosses at my. Channel wouldn't allow

23:37

that. I think it's a

23:39

cultural say yes yeah I think

23:42

that's pretty stern the last feel

23:44

uncomfortable questions yet so it's has

23:46

journalists feel uncomfortable about using the

23:48

L word. Do think Mactaggart change

23:50

your life the so many things

23:52

have happened to since then. getting

23:55

all those things would have happened

23:57

to you if you had not

23:59

done. Speech, Oh, didn't you already on the

24:01

track towards Cambridge know things are doing that? I

24:04

don't think it was the speech that

24:06

changed my life. I think that was

24:08

all the men who attracts. Me: I

24:10

know I am one of

24:12

the few people who sued

24:14

Sang Robbie give Us and

24:16

because. I. Was asked to do

24:19

Desert Island is yeah wow Actually when

24:21

they wrote to me and said would

24:23

you like to death on and this

24:25

adults it was one of my friends

24:27

thinking oh she's got a bit beyond

24:30

yourself and they had to right buttons

24:32

and know it really really is says

24:34

islanders and then also I was asked

24:36

to write a little book based. On. The

24:38

media actor? Yeah, trust me, I'm not

24:41

a politician. And then

24:43

I was a proves to

24:45

apply to be the president

24:47

of a college. Marty Edwards

24:50

and Cambridge University on.

24:52

I didn't go to

24:54

Oxford or Cambridge. This

24:56

was extraordinary. So. I need

24:58

to sign The lying Prime

25:01

Minister. For helping to make me

25:03

a President See, this is why I

25:05

mean by benefiting from walking towards the

25:07

San because most people know walks of

25:10

life are to avoid controversy. Even journalists

25:12

birch with you need controversy that your

25:14

minutes was all about. Isn't that really.

25:17

Cool. If you tell people things

25:19

they don't want to hear and

25:21

you're going to move cause controversy.

25:24

But as a journalist is your job

25:26

yes to tell people things they don't

25:29

want to hear. A couple of months

25:31

ago I was in another country

25:33

with the editor of a paper. Their

25:35

am I said to him in your

25:38

country what would happen if you called

25:40

the prime minister's ally. And

25:42

he just when you just

25:44

wouldn't even. Think of doing it

25:46

and we still live in. That country

25:49

where you can speak truth

25:51

to power us and we're

25:53

really lucky and now I'm

25:56

We should use that freedom

25:58

because our freedom. As

26:00

journalists gives us a duty to speak

26:02

news to power your presence of a

26:05

women's college in Cambridge so you see

26:07

the least the next generation you see

26:09

them coming up. Are they gonna save

26:12

us. Yes, they are going to

26:14

save has not the elites of

26:16

Cambridge. Young people own.

26:18

I spend my time

26:21

now with six hundred

26:23

absolutely wonderful young women.

26:25

They are principled there

26:28

and tell a turn.

26:30

They really care about

26:32

the world and. They

26:35

are people still

26:37

believe and what

26:39

we mustn't to

26:42

is undermined. Young People's

26:44

beliefs in Democracy by avoiding

26:46

the truth. So it's

26:48

my job as a journalist

26:50

to point out the lies

26:52

to make them believe in

26:54

truth so that they believe

26:56

in democracy and can save

26:59

the country from people like.

27:01

For example just to name one Boris

27:03

Johnson and in terms of Your Style

27:05

of Communication because of a similar themes.

27:08

Also the series is how people communicate

27:10

and the was you're very good effect

27:12

communicated. does he go back as early

27:15

days where you were I see debasing

27:17

with kids were the schools what is

27:19

it has defined your style communications would

27:22

you say. What? I used to argue

27:24

a lot with my father. I'm in

27:26

the. As by Margaret Thatcher, Yes, I'm a

27:28

I'm glad one. On my mother used

27:30

to say the reason I have such a loud

27:32

voice is I had to. Learn to savages

27:34

And my father. But

27:37

also the nuns saw

27:39

the i could win

27:41

the national. Schools debating competition,

27:43

which I did go on to

27:46

do so. They brought a man

27:48

in. A knee made me

27:50

stand on the table and every.

27:53

Time I started speaking, T swore

27:55

up me and so it's it

27:57

at me. And his eyes.

28:00

No He said to me, don't

28:02

stop Don't stop It doesn't matter.

28:04

For men say it doesn't matter.

28:07

What they do, you just

28:09

have to keep going. That

28:11

really is the story of your careers, not your life.

28:13

Isn't that many? Just to guy. Yeah.

28:16

Just keep going till you drop. Dorothy!

28:19

Thanks so much for joining! I just thank you very

28:22

much So thank you. And

28:25

make sure you subscribe to when it

28:27

hits the fan on Bbc Sounds! A

28:29

Don't miss our next special interview episode

28:32

which will be with Pr Guru Matthew

28:34

for his thanks as always listening! See

28:36

you next time I'm when it hits

28:38

the fan. Size

28:48

This is casting young. I just wanted to

28:50

let you know that young again my podcast

28:52

for the video for his back on telescope

28:54

to bits of the story together as a

28:56

kid is only memory to silly show business

28:59

and say with relented. In Young

29:01

Again, we're joined by some of the

29:03

world's most intriguing people. Still was the Ceo

29:05

at Microsoft at the time and I

29:07

asked a simple question if. He's then

29:09

or you know knows what would

29:11

you tell yourself? Be very very

29:13

careful about people you surround yourself

29:16

with. I gave too much power

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