0:02

I'm a 33-year-old female who

0:05

struggles with feelings of not

0:08

being enough and just this

0:10

belief that I'm unlovable. I

0:13

struggle with dating.

0:16

I haven't been in a long-term committed

0:18

relationship, and I find myself continuing

0:21

to be in this cycle

0:23

where it's as if I'm being used

0:25

as some type of placeholder, where

0:28

the individuals I date are continuing

0:30

to look. And

0:34

the question that I have for you

0:36

is, why do

0:39

the men I date continue

0:41

to friend-zone me

0:43

and choose other

0:45

partners? Solare

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not intended to diagnose, treat, cure,

1:29

or prevent any disease. What

1:35

you are about to hear is actually a little

1:38

request. We need your help, and

1:40

it'll only take a couple of minutes of your time

1:42

to answer a few questions about where should we begin

1:44

and you. If

1:47

you would go

1:49

to estherperel.com/survey and

1:52

tell us a little more about how you

1:54

experienced this podcast. We would

1:56

be really grateful and in fact, it will help to

1:58

make the show stronger. It'll also

2:00

let us know the kind of things you want to

2:03

hear Esther speak to. Again,

2:06

that's estherperel.com/survey.

2:09

We'll also add a link to that survey to

2:11

the show notes of this episode you're listening to

2:14

right now, so you can do it afterwards. And

2:16

thank you so much. Hello.

2:33

Hi, how are you? Hi, good. Good,

2:36

good, good. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too.

2:41

And how do you know

2:44

me and find me and decide to

2:46

ask me your question? Well,

2:48

I was going through

2:51

a really tough time and

2:53

I wanted to read a

2:55

blog on relationships to kind of support me

2:57

through it. And

2:59

it just felt really cathartic. And tell

3:02

me what part of it, what, when

3:05

you said, I need support, I'm

3:08

going through something and

3:10

I need to talk about it. What

3:12

was it? I had just

3:14

ended a friendship with this

3:16

guy that I felt really close to.

3:20

We had met initially on a

3:22

dating app and we

3:24

ended up deciding that we would

3:26

become friends. It was

3:28

a beautiful friendship that we had. But

3:31

I, is it okay

3:33

for me to give some

3:35

context? Yes, more than

3:37

okay. Okay. So

3:40

my upbringing was quite rough

3:43

and I didn't grow up feeling loved.

3:46

My mom told me growing up that she

3:48

wished she never had me, didn't love me.

3:51

And I think

3:54

those experiences made me feel like I

3:56

wasn't enough. And

3:59

when I started dating. I

4:01

continued to have similar

4:03

experiences. I

4:06

would invest a lot

4:08

of energy into the

4:10

relationship, stating these individuals for long

4:12

periods of time. And

4:15

then they would

4:17

essentially kind of just lead me on, it felt

4:19

like, and then I would have to end the

4:21

relationship because I felt

4:24

like this wasn't going anywhere and it was

4:26

really hurtful and it was just really messing

4:28

with my self esteem. And they all

4:30

became confirmation of what your mom said. Yes.

4:34

They all became reenactments of

4:37

that, you

4:40

don't want me, you don't love me, I'm

4:42

unlovable. Yeah. Right?

4:45

Oof. And to add to

4:47

that, after I would

4:49

end a relationship with these individuals,

4:52

not all, but most, they

4:54

would end up seeking someone

4:56

else and they would choose

4:59

that person and that's their partner. And

5:01

it made me wonder, well, why not

5:03

me? What's wrong

5:05

with me? And this

5:08

brings me to the friendship

5:11

that I mentioned earlier, the one

5:13

that I had to like in the friendship with. So

5:16

I think I mentioned we met

5:18

on a dating app and

5:21

we went on a couple of dates and he let me

5:23

know that he wanted to continue to pursue me. And

5:26

then ghosted me, fast

5:29

forward. He

5:32

and I reconnected, I don't remember

5:34

how or why, but

5:37

we reconnected and he apologized

5:39

for his behavior. And it

5:42

seemed very heartfelt and

5:44

we connected over that meetup and it

5:47

just felt really good. And

5:49

we just continued to hang out

5:51

quite often on like

5:54

a consistent basis. And he was the one

5:56

who was initiating our hangouts, texting

5:59

me. And

6:01

I started to get

6:03

this thought, well, it

6:06

seems like he's rather interested. What

6:10

if we did give this thing a shot? But

6:13

I was too afraid to share that with

6:15

him. Some time

6:17

passed and my

6:19

feeling started to become stronger for this person.

6:22

So here's the thing. He brought

6:24

up that he wanted to

6:27

revisit another relationship.

6:30

And it made me wonder again, well,

6:32

why didn't this person consider me? And

6:36

that really hurt me. So

6:38

then I decided to just be open

6:41

and say, hey, I like you.

6:44

You're complaining about these terrible

6:46

relationships and how you feel like you'll never

6:48

find a person. And I'm right

6:50

here. The feelings were

6:52

not mutual. And

6:55

that was just really painful. And I had

6:57

to sit with myself and ask myself, do

6:59

I want to continue being friends with this

7:02

individual who has said

7:04

in the past that I have a lot of

7:06

those qualities that he's looking for, but

7:09

still is seeking something better?

7:12

Or at least it makes me feel like

7:14

he's seeking someone better. And

7:18

did he try to fight for the relationship

7:20

or at least for the friendship? He

7:22

was confused because I

7:25

ended the friendship rather abruptly. He

7:27

didn't understand at first why I

7:29

ended the friendship. We

7:31

did meet up later on because

7:33

I felt like we needed to

7:35

have an in-person conversation. And

7:39

he later explained to me that he

7:43

revisited a conversation with

7:45

one of his exes. That person said

7:47

no. And that's when

7:49

he realized that he was using me

7:52

as a placeholder because he felt like

7:54

that woman was doing the same thing

7:56

to him. And he didn't

7:58

realize and now he understands why. I

8:00

had to make a step back. And

8:03

he mentioned that he would like

8:05

to continue our friendship, but also

8:07

understands where I'm

8:09

at and doesn't want to continue

8:12

to hurt me. He

8:14

didn't know that he was hurting you. He

8:16

didn't know. I didn't know,

8:19

because there were two relationships going on, the one

8:21

with your own feelings and the one with him.

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10:53

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hormones. I wish people

10:57

realized that it wasn't just doom and gloom,

10:59

like that you're going to have this terrible

11:02

10 years of your life, because

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11:56

Can I ask you one other thing? Because

11:58

you asked me about giving me some... context.

12:01

What was the context of your mother's life?

12:04

That that's where she landed with

12:06

you? She

12:11

never felt loved. She

12:14

never felt loved. And that

12:16

was a big part of her story. And

12:19

I don't think she was

12:21

capable of giving that to me. I

12:25

don't think she thought I

12:27

deserved it because she didn't have it. And

12:30

was there a father or

12:32

a father figure? Yes.

12:36

He's absent. I know him. We

12:38

don't talk often. And I don't have

12:41

a relationship with my mother. We're,

12:44

we're estranged. Was she, was

12:47

she a placeholder? That's

12:50

a great question. I know

12:52

they weren't in love when

12:54

they had me and

12:57

they weren't ready to be

13:00

parents. And

13:02

have you had other

13:04

mother figures? I

13:07

have. Okay. Because you

13:09

in my experience, you wouldn't

13:11

be where you are without

13:14

other figures who do love

13:16

you, believe in you, support

13:18

you and value you. That

13:22

is true. Okay. And

13:24

do they go on a date with you

13:26

too, inside of you, or do you primarily

13:28

go with your mom and your absent dad?

13:32

I think it's

13:35

hard for me to

13:38

think of the mother figures that I

13:41

do have because I see the way

13:43

that they love their children and I

13:45

don't receive that same love. They aren't

13:47

always available for me when I need

13:49

them, when I'm going through something. And

13:52

that's also painful. Are they

13:54

relative? Some are.

13:58

Some are relatives. I have a a

14:00

godmom and a really

14:02

close friend's mom. Is there a

14:06

relationship where you don't experience

14:08

scarcity? No.

14:12

And with this friend, this was the first

14:14

time that I didn't feel that

14:17

way until I

14:19

did. But

14:21

that doesn't... You see, what

14:23

I'm looking for is... I'm actually

14:25

going to re-ask it. If you look at the

14:28

broad picture of your life, is

14:30

there someone with whom you don't experience

14:32

scarcity? Could

14:35

be a teacher, could be a friend, could be

14:37

a boss, could be a relative.

14:41

My parents? Okay.

14:45

And yet, I'm

14:48

not sure that because you said

14:50

so, it is so. What

14:53

I also am observing is you

14:57

checking it out every time. And

15:03

hoping to disconfirm, but

15:05

ending with confirmation. So

15:10

the real answer is no. Meaning?

15:14

I only have myself to

15:16

love me. No, you

15:18

have a lot of other people who love

15:20

you. But there's

15:23

a part of you that is

15:25

attuned to what may be

15:27

missing. That

15:29

part is very loud. Because,

15:31

yeah, it's that. And when

15:33

a date doesn't work out,

15:37

it goes right back to that. It

15:41

doesn't stay at, okay,

15:44

met someone. And

15:46

by the way, I think if it

15:49

had been a friendship, both of you

15:51

really valued the friendship. But

15:53

you, throughout the friendship,

15:55

began to feel like this feels more

15:58

than a friendship. And then... You

18:00

don't get to feel proud enough about

18:02

it because she's

18:05

poisoning it. She

18:07

that lives inside of you is poisoning it.

18:13

You're shaking your head. I'm

18:16

trying not to cry. You can

18:18

totally cry. I will cry with you. I

18:22

think you're right. It's very painful.

18:26

Even with me walking away from my relationship with her,

18:28

it's like she's still there. Yeah.

18:34

I mean, you can walk away physically. It's

18:36

the disentangling on the inside. The umbilical

18:38

cord is very elastic, you know, and sometimes

18:40

we don't talk to the person, but the

18:43

person continues to talk to us inside of

18:45

us. And

18:50

what makes the dating complicated and so

18:52

painful is that it becomes a reenactment

18:54

of your relationship with her every time.

18:57

It's as if, you know, she's right.

18:59

She's right. She's confirmed by

19:01

people who are complete strangers. No, no,

19:03

nothing is confirmed. It's not true. It's

19:06

disappointing. It's upsetting. It's lonely.

19:08

It's frustrating. But

19:11

it's not an indictment of your

19:13

self-worth. It's not a judgment of you,

19:16

a confirmation of you're not being lovable.

19:18

Not being lovable. That is not right.

19:23

But how do I shift that? Because

19:29

it's like, logically I can

19:31

understand. Are there

19:33

dates where you don't want to continue? Yes.

19:38

But I think it's

19:40

more so the long term. Like

19:43

the people I've dated for like six months,

19:45

eight months, but they

19:47

don't want to commit to

19:49

a partnership. They want to keep

19:51

dating. But are there times

19:53

when you meet someone and ask to want to

19:55

date you, saying no, not for me? You

20:00

do. But

20:02

you don't include

20:04

those in your experience

20:07

as much. You include much more.

20:10

The whole dating is

20:12

a confirmation, an indictment,

20:15

an affirmation of, am

20:18

I to be loved, or will other

20:20

people always be loved more than me? Other

20:23

people will be chosen above me. And

20:27

fundamentally, maybe she was right.

20:31

So you're not going on a date. It

20:34

looks like you're going on a date with a hymn,

20:37

but what's dominating the space is

20:41

the legacy of her. And

20:44

so the first date is

20:47

not light. It

20:49

instantly is a test. And

20:53

that makes it much more difficult, much

20:56

more painful, because what

20:59

should be okay, it didn't work out.

21:01

It's very disappointing, but it's not the

21:05

confirmation of my value.

21:07

It's just... And

21:09

the dating culture itself doesn't help.

21:13

And that's nothing to do with you personally. That just

21:15

means that it brings out a lot of crude stuff

21:17

in people. Not very

21:19

caring, not very considerate. But

21:24

a first date or a second date or

21:27

the beginning, the subtext

21:29

for you is so present that

21:32

there are three people at the table. In

21:34

a way, when you go out

21:36

next time, there needs to be you

21:39

having a little chat with her, saying,

21:41

I'm going out tonight, and you're not invited.

21:44

But it's internal, right? This is

21:46

not... Not every person

21:48

I meet is there to

21:50

prove or disprove you, Ma'am. That's

21:53

a big burden I put on everybody

21:56

that leaves me feeling sober rest afterwards.

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23:20

know, I often

23:22

think that first dates should not

23:25

be one-on-one. Can

23:27

you tell me why? Because

23:30

I think that it

23:32

puts a tremendous pressure. You

23:35

know, many first dates these days are like a

23:37

job interview. It's people

23:39

asking each other questions. It's

23:41

lifeless. It's not fun. It

23:45

doesn't elicit curiosity. You

23:47

sit in noisy places where you

23:49

can barely hear what people say often. You

23:52

have a life. You have friends. You

23:54

have things you love to do. When

23:57

you go on a date with somebody, bring in a friend. into

24:00

that life. You

24:03

learn a ton about them. You'll

24:05

be supported by your own friends. It won't feel

24:07

like I'm here at an exam. Away

24:11

from my life, away from my support.

24:15

To see if this person is gonna choose

24:17

me or not. You

24:20

know, because that's her sentence, right? I didn't

24:22

choose to have you. And

24:24

so that sentence goes with you to

24:26

every date. Will you choose me? Hi.

24:30

Hi. I feel it in my own belly.

24:32

It's like, oh, no. That's

24:35

not a date. You have a good social

24:37

life. You have friends around you. I

24:40

do. Okay. When you have

24:43

a date, and this I say to many

24:45

people, it's like, bring the date to your

24:47

friends. If it doesn't

24:49

work out, the date goes on and the friends

24:51

continue. And you say, oh, I still had a

24:53

nice day. But

24:56

also you learned a ton about the

24:58

person by

25:00

watching how they interact with others and how

25:02

they interact with the people of your life.

25:05

I know it's not a popular idea

25:07

at this moment, but I really,

25:10

way too often I hear about

25:12

how people find dating most

25:14

unpleasant. And

25:17

that's a sweet way of saying it. It

25:20

sucks. You know?

25:22

And I hear it from you. I hear it

25:25

from so many. And I'm thinking, let's

25:27

turn, this can be done a little

25:29

differently. It's

25:31

very hard. There's something

25:34

you want to go see. There's something you want to go

25:36

hear. Take the date with you on

25:38

the thing that you like. At least

25:40

you're not in the grip of the

25:42

person. Choosing

25:44

you or not choosing you. Choose your thing you

25:47

enjoy doing and then bring them in. So

25:50

you have a choice too. You

25:53

don't feel like you're at the mercy of. I

25:56

like that. Because oftentimes I do

25:58

feel as though... I

26:01

feel very anxious

26:03

and uncomfortable and

26:05

thinking about, what

26:08

are they thinking about me? I

26:12

really like that idea. And when

26:14

you're in that situation, they

26:16

only see a small fraction of you too. They

26:19

don't see this amazing woman who has

26:21

gone through so much and

26:24

has so much to give. They

26:26

don't see it. Your anxiety is a part

26:28

of you, but it's only a part of

26:30

you. And you're busy thinking, what are

26:33

they thinking? And so that's what you're thinking, is

26:35

what are they thinking? You're not even asking yourself,

26:37

do I like this person? Because you're busy making

26:39

sure, do they like me? And

26:42

therefore, they don't get to see you in

26:45

the full spectrum. And you don't

26:47

get to bring that person with you. And that makes

26:50

it less likely that they will

26:52

be another date. I

26:55

mean, it's kind of backfiring. Look,

27:00

this only touches a

27:02

small piece of everything you're talking

27:04

about. It's not a panacea, but

27:08

because that's the work you probably

27:10

do in the therapy as well. How

27:12

do you take that sentence? I didn't choose you.

27:15

You're a burden on me. And

27:17

then to hope that when you go on

27:19

a date, somebody will say, here's what I've

27:21

been waiting for for so long. I choose

27:24

you and turn over the whole predicament

27:26

that your mother put you in. And

27:29

every date is trying to answer to

27:31

that master story. So

27:34

I'm only touching a very small thing,

27:36

but I think that it would give

27:38

you a different experience. I'm

27:40

going on a date. I want to have

27:42

a nice time. I don't want

27:44

this date to be my self-worth

27:47

examination. It's

27:49

exhausting. It's

27:51

exhausting and it's depleting. It

27:54

pulls you down all the time and

27:57

makes you constantly feel, I'm not good enough.

28:00

I'm not chosen. And if you are with the

28:02

people who choose you and you bring that person

28:04

in with your own friends, it

28:07

mitigates it. It neutralizes

28:09

it. If

28:11

you choose something you love to do

28:13

and you say, come join me in

28:15

that, same. You

28:18

want your choices in

28:20

there so that you don't sit at

28:22

the mercy of, will you choose me?

28:26

Because then you're not dating. You're doing something

28:28

else, but it's not dating. How

28:33

are we doing, by the way? I

28:36

feel better. I feel, I think

28:39

the perspective of, one,

28:42

I've rejected people and

28:44

not really reflecting

28:47

on that has helped. Also,

28:50

changing the way that I date and

28:52

having a support system around me, I

28:55

think could take a lot of pressure off of me. And

28:58

if the person says, that's weird or

29:00

that's strange, or do you always do

29:02

that? I like variety.

29:07

Do you like you're always doing the

29:09

same thing? I try different things. And

29:13

if they say no, then they say, if

29:16

you're curious about a person, you generally

29:18

are curious about their, what you call

29:21

context. You're curious

29:23

about their world. So I'm

29:25

inviting you into a little snippet of my world.

29:30

But the main piece is

29:32

that dating cannot be the place

29:34

where you go with that sentence,

29:36

I didn't choose you. And

29:39

then every date is

29:42

trying to replace

29:44

that with, yes, you're the one

29:46

I choose. And then if they

29:48

don't, then the rejection feels so

29:51

acute because it stands

29:53

right in the front of this primal

29:56

rejection. It

30:00

does. I don't want to continue

30:02

to put myself through that pain. That

30:05

you shouldn't. I mean, it's easier

30:08

said than done. But

30:10

when it happens, I want you to go

30:12

and have exactly that same conversation like the

30:15

one we're having. That

30:17

part of you that

30:19

is constantly having a

30:21

conversation with her while you're having

30:23

a conversation with a

30:25

total stranger. No, this is

30:27

not the purpose of this. You're not

30:30

there with me all the time. And

30:32

I can have a choice about that. I want

30:35

to soften your voice a little bit. Hearing

30:38

you say that I have a choice, it's

30:41

like this weight has been lifted. Like

30:45

I can breathe. No,

30:48

because I think that

30:50

voice has controlled so much of my

30:52

life, not only in dating, but in

30:54

my career in other areas. And

30:57

it has

30:59

really taken a toll on me. Was

31:02

your mother as accomplished as you? No.

31:06

And in some way, she

31:09

tried to stop me. Will

31:13

you remember that? That

31:15

you got to where you are despite

31:19

and above and beyond? And

31:22

when she starts chatting at you,

31:26

you need to return to her. Have

31:29

a conversation with that. It's

31:31

the her that lives inside of you. But

31:36

it's a part. It's not all. And

31:39

that part, you have

31:41

a choice to sometimes say,

31:43

not today. You

31:46

always act as if you know everything, but

31:48

you don't. Yeah, she

31:51

doesn't know anything. She

31:53

hasn't been with me on this journey. I

31:57

love that feistiness that just suddenly came

31:59

out. Wow. That's

32:03

another part. I fought really hard to get

32:05

to where I am today. And

32:09

I do have supports

32:11

that have helped me. I

32:13

often like to tell myself that I did it

32:15

alone. But as I'm reflecting,

32:17

I don't think that's entirely true. No,

32:20

I did it without her. But

32:22

that doesn't mean I did it alone. I did it with the

32:25

help of a lot of people. And there'll be many more to

32:27

come. Yeah. It's great.

32:30

And it feels really good to acknowledge

32:32

that. I would hope so. It

32:35

makes me feel more connected with

32:37

my community and

32:42

more appreciative of myself. We

32:45

don't choose where

32:47

we come from. But we have

32:50

more choice in who

32:52

we become. You can't

32:54

undo where you came

32:56

from and what she felt and

32:58

how she rejected you.

33:02

But you have a lot of choice, more

33:05

than you think, about

33:09

how much that

33:11

becomes the driving motto

33:14

of your life and

33:16

how much you resistance to it.

33:18

And you're transforming it becomes

33:21

the motto of your life. You

33:24

can say, because I was rejected,

33:27

I feel low, I feel I don't

33:29

value myself, I feel not good

33:31

enough. That line is just defining

33:34

me throughout. Or

33:36

you can say, I was

33:38

rejected, I wasn't valued. And

33:41

I learned in ways that I did not

33:43

know were possible through other people

33:47

that there was a whole other way of me than

33:50

the one that she made me look at. This

34:01

was an Esther calling, a one-time

34:03

intervention phone call recorded remotely from

34:05

two points somewhere in the world. If

34:08

you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther,

34:10

could be answered in a 40 or 50

34:12

minute phone call, send her a voice

34:14

message and Esther might just call you. Send

34:17

your question to producer

34:19

at estherperel.com. Where

34:23

should we begin with Esther Perel is produced

34:25

by Magnificent Noise. We're part of

34:27

the Vox Media Podcast Network. In

34:29

partnership with New York Magazine and The Con. Our

34:32

production staff includes Eric Newson,

34:34

Eva Walshover, Destry Sibley, Huwete

34:37

Gatana, Sabrina Farhi,

34:39

Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller,

34:41

and Julianne Hoth. Original

34:43

music and additional production by Paul

34:45

Schneider. And the executive producers

34:47

of Where Should We Begin are Esther

34:50

Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd

34:52

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton,

34:54

Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and

34:57

Jack Z.