0:01

In this next session will be

0:03

talking about death by suicide. I

0:05

want to take a moment to

0:08

one you in case this material

0:10

is not for. You. I

0:16

lost my husband of twenty five

0:18

years to suicide back in May

0:21

Have Twenty A T. A

0:25

was the most emotionally

0:27

devastating experience I've ever

0:29

had in my life.

0:32

And while I've done the worked and know

0:34

that there was nothing I could have done

0:36

to prevent it. But

0:38

I'm most curious about now as

0:40

I. Think about potentially

0:43

answering new relationships is no

0:45

one on the horizon but

0:47

just something I think about

0:50

am when I'm curious about

0:52

is what did I miss

0:54

and were behaviors that are

0:56

normalized and settle for because

0:59

he was so different from

1:01

man I had come to

1:03

know in my childhood and

1:06

early adulthood. You know I

1:08

often did the heavy lifting

1:10

emotionally and. Our relationship. Concerned

1:14

that are normalized behavior

1:16

that was may be

1:19

abnormal How could I

1:21

have saved myself from

1:24

such an emotionally devastating

1:26

experience. Like she I

1:28

had left sooner just trying

1:30

to get to the bottom.

1:32

Had a fake. This.

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others. Last one in just

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typically have less money available to

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pay their rent less. Money to

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go around periods really affects

2:23

the chances of building longer

2:25

term financial safety. Nets like

2:28

an emergency fund. For job

2:30

losses. Look to the disproportionately

2:32

high of six rates of black women. How

2:34

Sick. Stability. New

2:40

episodes every Wednesday. Louis

2:55

new so a disservice to your

2:57

city. How do you know? where

2:59

should we begin? Or how do

3:01

you know? Yeah, I started listening.

3:04

Somewhere in like twenty eight

3:06

Team? maybe twenty seventeen? And

3:09

I would play them sometimes at night and

3:11

will bring my husband. Something would resonate in

3:13

there for him. With

3:16

Mrs. Did you? who would

3:19

infantry too sweet dreams or

3:21

not, sweet dreams. Yeah,

3:24

just that. Everybody

3:26

struggling mad relationships take work

3:29

and was also hoping that

3:31

he could just unknown get

3:33

a. Glimpse. Or

3:36

here's something that might. Help

3:39

him not just us by

3:41

the him. As

3:43

he had a pretty tough Muslim

3:45

was a tough exterior but probably

3:47

was a little confused about what

3:49

was going to actually help him.

3:52

He was usually thinking that the

3:54

surface stuff you know the next

3:56

big job, next big title. The

3:59

next. Big salary at those

4:01

things were going to help

4:03

him with what. With.

4:06

His moves. With.

4:08

Him being depressed with

4:11

his anxiety. Was

4:14

that the main thing he grappled with

4:17

or was his anxiety about something. To

4:20

his anxiety was definitely always

4:22

around work. Whatever problems we

4:25

have typically stems from some

4:27

situation that he was having

4:30

at work, He just made

4:32

that his identity. And.

4:41

The his source of. Identity.

4:43

Men's a sense of

4:45

competence, self worth place

4:47

in the world's status.

4:50

Competence. All of that he

4:52

was a no. A young

4:54

man born in the projects

4:56

Porta Rican men only boy

4:58

and his family. His father

5:00

died when he was young.

5:03

He worked really hard to

5:05

make a life for himself

5:07

and to defend himself in

5:09

other ways, and he always

5:11

grappled with that being taken

5:13

away. And somehow he was

5:15

going to end up. In

5:18

the projects even if it wasn't even.

5:21

Something. Real Like it just seemed

5:23

like sometimes it was. Often

5:25

things that may be fabricated in

5:28

his head out. It's like the

5:30

fear we just. Take over.

5:33

So. He was. It's young men

5:35

of color. Who.

5:37

Came out of poverty and was

5:40

haunts. it's his whole life about.

5:42

Yeah. I will and I will say. Out. Of poverty

5:45

or he grew up with his parents.

5:47

His father was a police officer, but

5:49

his father died of cancer when he

5:51

was like sixteen years old. And

5:54

so he did see the people around

5:56

him that weren't doing well as always.

5:59

Like this. Dual personality like he

6:01

lived in a projects but he

6:03

went to a very prominent private

6:05

school for was always this living

6:07

in that world and then having

6:09

a come home and live in

6:11

a different world. Went.

6:14

The cool it when you think you continue

6:16

sierra fraud and you don't belong in you

6:18

gonna be signed out. Imposter

6:21

Syndrome. Is that a word

6:23

that was ever use? Know Never Use.

6:25

It because he was so brilliant.

6:27

He was so smart, he was

6:29

so bright. It was nothing that

6:32

he could not put his head

6:34

to and achieve and was always

6:36

striving. And so

6:39

I lost him. And twenty

6:41

eighteen. He. Hung himself in

6:43

our home. After. Several.

6:46

Months of really really deep.

6:49

Depression and anxiety. It was like the

6:52

worse I had ever seen on and.

6:58

He just couldn't. Couldn't

7:02

he couldn't see his way. Summer

7:04

here. This is really quite a.

7:08

And you try it for how many

7:11

years to help him? There.

7:13

So we were. We were married

7:15

for over twenty five years. We

7:17

had celebrated our twenty fifth wedding

7:19

anniversary and September and then he

7:21

took his life in May. Add

7:24

following year. And you try to help

7:27

him to see the lights. Are some right?

7:30

Yeah, it was always a was

7:32

episodic. You know, like over twenty

7:34

five years. There's you know. there

7:37

were these pockets of times when

7:39

he wasn't doing well as it

7:41

always was around for. You

7:44

know, Just wanna

7:46

ask you before because. This

7:49

has been such. An

7:52

enormous sum, devastating experience

7:54

for you. Is. That

7:56

what you want us to talk about today.

7:59

Is. This where the. Twenty five years

8:01

you've lived, We have five

8:03

years later. And

8:05

you're telling me I need to

8:07

process more. The suicide

8:09

of my husband's. What?

8:12

I did what I didn't do. What?

8:15

I wished he had experienced what I

8:17

wish for, had said or didn't say

8:19

we can go there. But. You

8:21

may have another question to I just wanna

8:23

make sure that we start where we need

8:25

to start. Yeah I think

8:27

where I am now. In

8:29

L five years later, I know

8:31

that there was nothing that I

8:33

could have done. Differently,

8:35

nothing I could have done to save.

8:38

Him. But what

8:40

I grapple with said day. Is.

8:42

What did I miss? What?

8:45

Did I miss? What Did

8:47

I? Allow. With.

8:50

Abnormal behavior. Did I

8:52

normalize? Of yours or of his.

8:55

Of his. Because. I

8:57

think ultimately now he's gone and

8:59

I'm the one last you know

9:01

and I struggle with could I

9:03

have done something? To save myself.

9:06

From. experiencing bet level of

9:08

trauma. In. Ah,

9:11

to come in and see that.

9:13

And yes, I've done a lot

9:15

of work in on very much

9:17

shield from knowing that. I.

9:19

Could have done something different to

9:21

have impacted helps. Now what I'm

9:24

concerned with is. What?

9:26

Happened to me. What have what

9:28

happened to me when he

9:30

did display behaviors that were.

9:33

Abnormal. Why did

9:35

not leave like com? Meaning

9:38

you know telling lies around

9:40

were like he was gonna

9:43

get fired or things that

9:45

just never really seemed to

9:48

be true. Also.

9:51

He would check out like. Just

9:53

basically emotionally. Be.

9:56

checked out nano some of that had a

9:58

lot to do with his anxiety and

10:01

depression, but there also were times

10:03

that we didn't have a very

10:05

active sex life. So

10:09

I think about, you know, when you're

10:11

in it, it seems like you don't

10:13

necessarily see it that

10:15

way, but when you're outside of

10:17

it and you start to see that, the

10:20

totality of it all. I

10:22

can be a fixer, I can

10:24

be a rescuer, and I

10:27

feel like I always did the heavy

10:29

lifting in the relationship, that I had

10:31

the emotional capacity to

10:34

do that. And I

10:36

just wonder sometimes if I didn't

10:40

do right by myself, didn't

10:42

do right for me. Someone

10:45

had pointed out to me, they said, well, but

10:47

if you had left and then he had taken

10:49

his life, you probably would feel that

10:51

somehow you should have been there. But

10:54

it's five years later

10:56

and I would like to at some

10:58

point be in a relationship. I'm

11:01

55, I had a lot more love

11:03

to give, and I just

11:05

want to make sure that I'm

11:08

right, you know, in terms of

11:11

making decisions and

11:14

not rescuing people and looking

11:16

out for myself. But

11:20

let me say here it correctly.

11:24

As I understand it, you

11:26

spend 25 years

11:28

or whatever years, you spend a lot

11:30

of years focused

11:33

on your husband, on his

11:35

mood, on his crisis

11:37

of self-worth, on

11:39

his panics about how

11:43

he was going to be dispossessed. And

11:46

you accepted a

11:49

disconnect between you and him because he felt

11:51

he had nothing to give, so

11:53

he didn't have much to give to you either.

11:57

You became his nurse, you

11:59

were constantly... watching for

12:01

him, tracking him, making sure

12:03

that he's not doing what

12:05

he ended up doing anyway. I'm sure

12:07

this was not a complete surprise or

12:10

is that accurate? Yeah, I

12:12

see your head shaking. Yeah, at

12:14

the end it was pretty obvious. Yeah.

12:17

Right. And basically

12:19

you put your needs aside because

12:22

he became the focus because

12:24

while he felt very, very weak

12:27

on the inside, he actually took

12:29

up a lot of space between the two of

12:32

you. And you

12:34

could not ask for any connection,

12:36

any intimacy, any

12:38

sexuality, any physicality.

12:42

And basically to keep him alive, a

12:45

certain deadness entered into you.

12:47

Yeah. And you wonder,

12:49

what did that mean for me to live

12:52

with that kind of abnegation?

12:56

And what effect does it have on

12:58

me today? I know

13:00

something about myself that I can

13:02

be a real caretaker of the

13:04

first degree, a fixer,

13:06

a rescuer, and I would

13:08

like to be in a

13:11

relationship, hence forward, where

13:13

somebody takes care of me for a change,

13:15

a little bit at least. Yes.

13:18

And I don't want to portray that the

13:21

25 years was all just horrific

13:23

because they weren't, they really weren't.

13:26

He was a good man. He was a

13:28

loving man. I never doubted that he loved

13:31

me and cared for me. I just knew

13:33

that he cared

13:35

for work a lot more. And I

13:38

didn't grow up with my dad and I didn't

13:41

grow up. I don't have any brothers. But the

13:43

men that I did know, it was

13:45

kind of like, okay, there's worse things.

13:47

Someone could chase after, you know, he's

13:49

chasing after education and titles

13:52

and credentials. And like

13:54

he's not chasing women. So, you

13:57

know, it's okay. I don't hear

13:59

any. blame from you. This

14:01

is not about a revisionism

14:04

of the marriage or a blame. This

14:06

is you saying, kind of taking stock

14:09

and saying, now that I can finally

14:11

think a little bit about me as

14:13

well, I want to know

14:15

what happened to me over this many

14:18

years in this relationship and what

14:20

do I want to pay attention to from

14:23

here on. I don't hear you trying to

14:25

say, I failed this because he did this

14:27

to me. We

14:36

have to take a brief break. Stay

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17:33

how did you become such a good rescuer, such

17:36

an amazing caregiver? Some

17:40

of it was meeting him, I think. Yeah, but you

17:42

had skills, or did you only hone your skills

17:44

with him? I

17:47

had been in the helping profession,

17:51

worked with cancer patients. And

17:54

I don't know, it's probably just

17:56

my heart. I think I've always just had a bit of

17:58

that. I can't say that it's been a long time. was

18:00

taught because I didn't really gain

18:03

that at home. But did you

18:05

learn it in your own growing up? Did

18:07

you have circumstances that made

18:10

you hone those skills? Yeah, yep.

18:12

I took care of my little sister oftentimes.

18:14

We were nine years apart. We

18:16

were nine years apart or we are? We

18:19

are, sorry. We are nine years apart. I

18:22

just want to make sure that I

18:24

know. And you said it with a smile,

18:26

actually. Your whole face just lit

18:28

up as you're thinking of

18:30

her. So tell me more. Because

18:33

this is a very different experience of

18:35

caregiving. So caregiving comes with

18:37

a smile and caregiving comes

18:39

with a sense of heaviness and

18:43

loneliness. You see,

18:45

you just showed me two experiences

18:47

of yours for caretaking. So

18:50

tell me about the smiley one. Yeah,

18:53

I have older sisters as well,

18:55

two older sisters. So just

18:57

having someone to kind of take

19:00

care of and someone

19:03

that I had to look out for that I

19:05

could help my mom kind of

19:07

be the helper. And I think the difference

19:09

in age, I mean, when she was time

19:11

for her to walk, I would like carry

19:13

her on my hip and my mother would

19:15

have to tell me to put her down

19:18

or she'll never walk. Or

19:20

if she would stumble, I would rush over

19:22

and my mother would say, don't you move,

19:24

let her fall and get

19:26

herself up. So and

19:29

I think about when I left the go away to college.

19:34

It was really sad to leave her. It

19:39

was difficult because you really felt

19:42

loving and responsible like

19:45

a momma, like a bigger

19:47

sister. Yeah. Yeah. And

19:50

today, today,

19:52

she's still my little

19:54

sister. Although

19:57

I've allowed that I've been able to step

20:00

back and realize that, you know, she

20:02

can walk alone. Exactly.

20:06

Exactly. But I love her and my other

20:08

sisters very much. You

20:12

see what I'm, what

20:14

I'm hearing is you've had more

20:16

than one experience of

20:18

caretaking. Not always does

20:21

it mean that you erase yourself, you

20:23

face yourself, and you

20:26

just have no needs. You have an experience

20:28

with your sister where care taking is not

20:30

about keeping someone alive, but

20:32

about helping someone grow. And it

20:36

comes with a smile and tenderness

20:38

and softness and juiciness. And

20:41

that you don't want to

20:43

erase that entire part of you

20:45

that you call the caretaker. Yeah,

20:49

and I experienced caretaking now

20:51

and I actually, I

20:53

have a wonderful neighbor. She's elderly,

20:55

she helps me grow and I

20:57

help her grow. And I

21:00

enjoy her spending time with her very

21:02

much. And, you know,

21:04

the other day she says something about the relationship

21:06

being one way or something. And I told her,

21:08

I said, you know, it's funny, our

21:11

relationship developed at a time after I

21:13

lost my husband and I take great

21:15

joy in being

21:17

there for her and helping out and things

21:19

like that. So yeah,

21:21

that's a good, I'm glad you pointed

21:24

that out because that is how I

21:26

do have different experiences. Giving

21:29

often is very much a form of

21:31

receiving. You know, in the case with

21:34

your husband, you feel I gave him

21:36

so much and he did, he gave

21:38

me a lot early on. But at

21:40

some point, he drowned in his own

21:43

sorrows and in his own challenges

21:47

and crisis around self-esteem

21:49

and feeling that he would never

21:51

really belong and he would never

21:53

have his place or that his

21:55

place was ever legitimate enough. And

22:00

in the course of that, he

22:02

stopped paying attention to you. Not

22:06

as a caretaker, but also as a

22:09

woman, as a sensual woman, as

22:11

a woman who would love to receive some

22:14

attention and some love and care. Yeah.

22:18

Even when I would like tell him sometimes, I

22:20

would just say like, what

22:23

am I supposed to do? Like,

22:26

he was just shrug his shoulders. Just

22:29

like walk away. He

22:31

literally had no answer.

22:35

And it didn't come from him. And you

22:37

said he had no empathy either? There

22:40

were times definitely in our marriage

22:42

that he lacked empathy for

22:44

sure. My stepdad

22:47

passed away and he was

22:49

supposed to show up for the funeral. He

22:51

didn't show up. He didn't call. He

22:54

didn't say he wasn't

22:56

coming. And I think

22:58

that's when I realized that like I'm

23:01

the heavy lifter. I'm the

23:03

one. He's just

23:05

not capable. The heavy lifter is a

23:07

word that you used, you

23:09

know, in your head a lot. But what

23:11

you're also saying is I was there for

23:14

him and he stopped being there for me.

23:17

He could barely be there for himself. And

23:20

he stopped being there for me. And

23:23

I have other experiences where being

23:25

there for someone feels

23:28

nourishing to me. With him,

23:30

I began to feel more

23:33

and more lonely and empty. Yes,

23:36

that is how it felt. And you're saying,

23:39

I don't want to feel like that when

23:41

I meet the next partner. You

23:44

have such a thirst for life and

23:46

so much love to give, but you'll

23:49

be less afraid when you meet someone.

23:51

At this moment, you meet a person and

23:54

in your mind, you're thinking of your husband

23:57

versus you meet someone and

23:59

you think. of your neighbor and

24:01

you think of your sister. And

24:03

who else? Are there other relationships

24:07

of giving and receiving in your life? Yeah,

24:10

I would say that most of my

24:12

relationships are pretty balanced.

24:14

Okay. So tell

24:16

me, why do you think about him as

24:19

the primary reference, besides the fact that he's

24:21

a man, besides the fact that you say,

24:24

I didn't have a father in the

24:26

presence of a man in

24:28

my life means something in particular? And

24:30

maybe that's not a besides. Maybe

24:33

that's actually really crucial. But you

24:35

have so many other examples in

24:37

your life and they need

24:39

to be right there on the forefront.

24:41

When the fear kicks in, they need

24:43

to talk to that fear and say,

24:46

Hey, I have

24:48

many fantastic experiences. This

24:51

was one. This is not the pivot

24:53

of my life. I

24:56

think maybe I give it so much weight

24:58

because he's the only man

25:00

that really loved me in that way. I didn't

25:03

have a lot of great relationships.

25:06

We met and married in nine months.

25:11

I was young in my early

25:13

twenties and he

25:15

was the first man that really

25:18

was genuinely interested in me. Do

25:21

you remember what that felt like? Oh

25:23

yeah. Yeah. I felt special. I

25:26

felt loved. I

25:28

felt a level of companionship

25:31

that I had never experienced

25:34

with anyone else. Were

25:36

you lovers? Yes.

25:38

Early on we were. But

25:41

I'd say a few years into the marriage, the

25:44

imbalance started in

25:46

terms of intimacy and

25:48

those sorts of things. And

25:50

he would withdraw and he

25:53

would become recluse and he

25:55

would be living

25:57

with a sense of dread that the

25:59

world under his feet. can instantly disappear.

26:03

You knew he wasn't doing this to you? When

26:07

I first experienced it with him, I would

26:10

say that I did think it

26:12

was personal. And that was

26:14

before there was ever any

26:17

talk about male depression or

26:19

anything like that. I thought

26:22

he was just me or

26:24

just not a happy person.

26:27

And we did break up for a short time.

26:30

It was like around 9-11 and I

26:33

just thought the world could end

26:35

tomorrow and here I am, stuck

26:38

with you. So I

26:40

did. We separated for a time. And

26:43

then we got back together and he was

26:45

better. He was better after that.

26:48

Was he in treatment? At

26:50

the end he was, but

26:52

during the marriage, no.

26:54

We would have episodes where we would

26:57

see a marriage therapist

26:59

or something like that. But he never

27:02

understood that the

27:04

problem was not going to be fixed

27:06

with the next big job or the

27:08

next degree or the next title. So

27:11

when he did get into treatment,

27:14

because he had had a couple

27:16

of attempts, but he still wouldn't

27:18

be truthful with the

27:21

psychiatrist or the psychologist. And then I would

27:23

sit in and I would say what I

27:25

observed and it would be so different from

27:28

what he had been telling them. How

27:31

lonely it must have been. But

27:34

it must have been so lonely

27:37

for him to think that he alone

27:39

can change this and that it's all

27:41

on his shoulders. Because

27:43

you see, I want to start to date

27:46

and I have grieved,

27:48

I have mourned, I have

27:50

processed and I want to now

27:55

live again and

27:58

love again and be loved and feel

28:00

special again. Is there

28:02

one particular moment when you think about

28:04

the time when you felt special and

28:07

energized with him? Is

28:09

there a moment like that that you can retrieve?

28:14

Oh, several. Several over the

28:16

course of, you know, 25 years.

28:19

And it took a while for me to reach

28:22

back to those memories because often

28:25

with such a tragedy, the

28:27

tragic way in which he died,

28:29

that becomes the

28:32

lens in which you see things. But

28:35

I do now, I do, you know,

28:37

as the last couple of years, I

28:39

do recall the good times and the

28:41

time. Tell me one, before

28:43

you even tell it to me, as

28:46

you bring it up to your

28:48

awareness, I want you to imagine how

28:50

you're bringing it from way back in

28:52

the past to

28:54

the front and bring it literally in

28:57

front of your eyes and hold

28:59

it in your hands and

29:01

look at it. So

29:03

it doesn't stay in the recesses of

29:06

your memory, but it

29:08

really begins to move ahead

29:11

and take precedence over other

29:13

memories. But really

29:16

see it. Don't just think about

29:18

it. Imagine it, see it, feel

29:20

it, remember it, go right back

29:23

there. And when

29:25

you really have it in front of you,

29:27

then tell me. Yes,

29:29

you can close your eyes and just

29:32

go to

29:34

that time when you felt

29:36

special, adored, seen, desired.

29:42

There were like many

29:44

times when he was able to

29:46

just show his

29:49

affection. It wasn't like sexual

29:51

intimacy. He had a special

29:53

whistle for me when we

29:56

were in like a department

29:59

store. like a, I don't know,

30:01

like a Marshall's a DJ Max or something.

30:04

And he would do the

30:06

whistle. And

30:12

that's how we found each

30:14

other. He would be whistling

30:17

for me. And I would

30:19

whistle back. And I would whistle

30:21

back. And

30:23

he would ask me if you, are you ready to

30:25

go? Stay there,

30:27

stay there, stay there. Say

30:29

it to me in the present tense. So

30:32

I hear him whistling and I'm whistling

30:34

back. I hear his

30:37

whistle. And I

30:40

respond back with my whistle. And

30:43

we would miraculously meet

30:46

somewhere. We

30:48

would follow the whistle. And

30:51

we would be able to, we would

30:53

find each other. And

30:56

once we found each other, he would

30:59

ask if it was okay. Like, are you ready

31:01

to go? You ready to go? And if

31:04

I wasn't ready to go, he could say I'd

31:06

be in the car. And

31:10

say to me as if it's now. It's

31:13

right in front of you. It's no longer just

31:15

in the past. I

31:18

feel like sometimes those moments

31:20

are more fleeting. But

31:23

I can remember like whole

31:26

conversations of things that

31:28

weren't good. But

31:32

the other things, they seem harder

31:34

to, like I remember them. I

31:36

know he loved me and cared

31:38

for me, but it seems hard. Would you be

31:40

willing to try something with me to

31:43

help ground the

31:45

other memories? Because

31:47

those are the ones you

31:49

want to take with you when you date

31:52

again. So

31:55

I'm going back with you to Marshalls.

31:57

We can start there. Because what's

32:00

are we in when we are at

32:02

Marshall or what season is it? What's

32:04

the day like? What are we wearing?

32:08

But you hear the whistle. I hear

32:10

the whistle because he whistled a lot.

32:12

No, no, in the present tense. I'm

32:15

going to ask it to you today. I am a young

32:18

woman. It's the first

32:21

few years that I've been with

32:23

my partner, my husband, and

32:27

we developed these little private

32:30

codes that couples have. You

32:33

know those little things that nobody else knows

32:36

and we know exactly what that whistle

32:38

means and the

32:40

whistle changes tones and it instantly

32:43

changes signaling and

32:46

it's intimate and

32:49

it's tender and it's just ours.

32:52

Yeah. Yeah. And I

32:54

see the smile on your face. I

32:56

imagine it because my eyes are closed. For

32:59

me to be at Marshall's with you,

33:02

I too have to close my eyes.

33:06

And then when we find each other

33:08

in the store, there's grace. Would you

33:10

like to go back? Then

33:13

you say, no, I want to stay a little longer. And he

33:15

says, okay, I'll wait in the car. And

33:18

so you know that

33:20

you can go play. It's like a kid that

33:22

goes off to play, but they

33:24

know that the adult is

33:27

there holding the fort grounded and I'll

33:29

wait for you when you come back. Yes.

33:33

Not too long. Not too long.

33:35

Not too long. No, no, no, not too

33:37

long. But it

33:39

allows me to feel completely safe

33:42

while I'm exploring the store, knowing

33:44

that someone is waiting for me

33:46

right outside when I'm ready to

33:48

come back. It's

33:50

delicious. Am

33:54

I seeing it? Are you seeing it? I

33:57

see it. You see it. And you're

33:59

wearing your body are you feeling

34:01

it describe to me the sensation

34:03

of the whistle and the free

34:06

time to roam around when he's

34:08

waiting for you and there's no

34:10

urgency and and your

34:12

needs are not too much and somebody's there

34:14

just for you and that feels

34:17

very special. Yes. It's

34:21

like I can feel it in my

34:23

upper body. Mm. Tell me more. I

34:25

can feel it around like my shoulders

34:27

and my heart and my neck. Um.

34:32

Mm. So you hold your

34:34

hands crossed over and you

34:36

are literally hugging yourself

34:38

as you felt hugged when

34:41

you could stay in marshes

34:43

with him. Just waiting for you

34:46

being there. Yeah.

34:49

Let it come out. Yes. Yes.

34:56

Mm. We

35:12

are in the midst of our session

35:15

and there is still so much

35:17

to talk about. We need to take

35:19

a brief break. So stay with us. Mm.

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37:37

esther. Sometimes

37:43

he would give me these things called

37:45

smooches on my head. Or

37:49

he had a nickname for me, but called

37:51

me moose. Just

37:53

weird little things that only we knew.

37:57

Little things, our little language, our little

37:59

ways. communicating.

38:03

And they were beautiful and they were special.

38:06

Do you see Moose right now? I

38:09

do. I do.

38:13

We had traveled somewhere. I think

38:15

we were in Minnesota somewhere and there

38:18

was this moose in the

38:20

store. And after that, it just

38:23

became a phase. And

38:29

Moose, can she go on

38:32

the dates with you? Oh

38:34

yeah. We

38:37

enjoyed dining

38:39

and going out and

38:42

just enjoying each other's company.

38:45

Yeah. Can

38:48

you do a deep breath into

38:51

Moose, the

38:54

dinners, the company? Just soak

38:56

it up. Just take it

38:58

in. Because

39:01

that too is part of your relationship

39:04

and that too is part of your

39:06

history. And that part is

39:09

slowly moving in front of

39:11

you and entering through your

39:14

arms into your body.

39:17

And it's going to accompany you. It's

39:20

part of the memories, but they've been

39:22

fleeting, as you say, and they need

39:24

to become more central. Or you want

39:26

them to be more central. When

39:29

you meet people, you want them to

39:31

meet Moose. You

39:34

don't just want them to meet the

39:36

wife of someone who

39:39

hung himself and who

39:42

felt so tortured

39:44

in his life. You want them

39:47

to see Moose. And

39:49

I think I do carry that with

39:51

me. I love the

39:53

smile. I like to

39:56

laugh. You have a beautiful smile,

39:58

you know? I'm

40:00

seeing it through Zoom, so imagine

40:02

if I saw it in real.

40:05

And it's a smell that

40:08

comes immediately when you think

40:10

of your sister, when you think

40:12

of Moose, when you think of the whistle. You

40:15

don't just remember it, you relive it.

40:18

Yes. I know I am capable

40:22

of loving again, but

40:24

part of me does feel like it'll never

40:26

happen again. Like that was just it for

40:28

me. It's like just a

40:30

little teeny part. Okay, well, we'll keep

40:32

it tiny. Yes. And

40:36

the truth is we don't know, but we

40:38

do know that when people walk in

40:40

the world with a smile like yours

40:43

and the radiance and Moose

40:46

and her joie de vivre, that

40:49

it attracts, we do know that. Yeah.

40:53

And that ray inside

40:55

of you, that radiance, wants

40:58

to go into the world now. It's not the

41:00

only part of you, but it's

41:03

one that you feel is yearning to

41:05

come out. What

41:07

would Moose say? Now does Moose

41:09

talk? I

41:12

don't know, he gave me

41:14

that name. It's

41:17

not a name I would call myself, but it

41:19

was cute. Right,

41:23

okay. And who is she? What does

41:25

she say to you? She's like, girl, get

41:27

it in gear. Get

41:29

it in gear. Yeah, all right. Now

41:32

do me a favor. Show me the body

41:34

of Moose. What's her

41:36

posture? How does she say this? It's

41:39

like, get it in gear, girl. Get

41:41

yourself together. There's lots of life to

41:43

live. There's lots of loves

41:45

to have, not just one, many.

41:49

Lots of loves to have. And-

41:52

She's feisty. She's feisty,

41:54

she's feisty. And that guy's

41:56

got my back. She's a life,

41:58

yes. Yeah. Very alive,

42:00

very alive. And she's got your

42:02

back, yes. And

42:06

she goes with you into this next

42:08

stage because Moose

42:10

didn't die with him. Moose

42:14

is alive with you. So

42:18

you go, girl, he's

42:21

a major part of your life, but

42:24

he's not the one who's going to date

42:28

with you. Moose goes on a date with you.

42:31

Is this a good place for us to start? Yes,

42:34

I think so. I

42:38

guess the end is

42:40

that, you

42:42

know, I wanted to know what did I miss. Moose?

42:47

I guess, but I mean what did

42:49

I miss in the relationship that, you

42:52

know. Parts of

42:54

the things you say you miss is Moose.

42:57

It's go, girl, I got you back.

42:59

We're going to live. We have lots

43:02

of loves to experience still. We're

43:05

hungry. We

43:07

cherish life. We

43:10

have the smile that wants to go into

43:12

the world. Moose

43:15

is what you lost. And

43:19

the whistles that come with that. But

43:22

the whistles is your playfulness. It's not

43:24

just him. And

43:27

my ability to kind of respond

43:29

to playfulness. And he

43:31

was a serious man, but he also

43:34

can have his moments of being playful.

43:36

And that's what I miss. And

43:39

that's what I'm going to find. I

43:42

want to be playful. I want

43:44

Moose with me. I want to,

43:47

you know, that body of yours

43:49

that instantly, like Moose, she sits

43:51

up and she's a force. She

43:53

charges. And I don't have

43:55

to be so serious all

43:57

the time. To you. Do

44:01

you still have the question, what did I miss? I

44:04

missed me. I lost me. I

44:06

forsake myself for

44:09

him is what I did. And I

44:12

don't know what it would have looked like if

44:14

I had done something different. I don't know

44:17

whether that would have looked like, I think,

44:19

up to this conversation that looked like leaving.

44:21

Like why didn't I leave? That was the

44:23

question that I kind of was thinking. But

44:27

now it's not about leaving

44:29

or going physically. It's

44:32

about leaving and going mentally and

44:34

how maybe I just allowed myself to

44:37

be, just

44:39

succumb to

44:41

his illness. Just

44:43

like it took him. You

44:45

know, it didn't take me in the same way, but

44:50

I succumbed to it as well. Yes,

44:53

his depression became his life and your

44:55

life. I couldn't have

44:57

said it better. What you say is

45:00

profound. It

45:03

certainly is because that's not what

45:05

I was thinking before I joined

45:07

the call. I was kind of

45:09

like, why didn't you go sooner? Why

45:11

didn't you leave? And you could have

45:13

avoided experiencing all of that. But nope.

45:20

And I'd say he checked out, but I checked out too. Checked

45:24

out from myself. I lost connection with

45:26

me. That's really

45:28

the bottom line. You

45:30

know what's very apparent? Every

45:34

time you speak from that place, it's

45:37

like the energy of Moose enters your

45:39

body. What

45:42

the hell happened with me? Yeah.

45:45

I lost. That's the

45:47

energy that accompanies you in your next phase

45:49

of life. It's

45:51

actually with me now. I

45:53

think sometimes I just lose it because

45:56

I think that

45:58

I did something wrong. where I think that I could

46:01

have done something different or something

46:03

better. So then I second guess. You

46:06

know. Do you feel

46:08

that this has given you a different,

46:13

a different what? Yeah. A

46:16

different perspective. A

46:18

different perspective on how

46:21

I responded in the situation. It

46:24

wasn't that I missed something in

46:26

him or something that I was busy

46:28

loving him taking care

46:31

of him and I just lost

46:33

myself. And I

46:35

will not do that again. For

46:37

no one. That's a

46:39

manifesto. I won't do

46:41

that, dude. Yeah, there's

46:44

nothing. There's no, there's no points

46:46

for martyrdom. Ha ha ha ha. No

46:53

points for martyrdom. So just want to experience love

46:57

again. There's

47:01

nothing I can promise you, but

47:03

that smile I can tell you will attract

47:05

love in

47:08

any form. Maybe not

47:10

romantic love, but all kinds of other

47:12

loves. You said in plural, there are other loves.

47:14

You will have other loves. I don't know which

47:17

form it will take. Yeah. And

47:20

I thank you very much. And

47:22

I thank you very much. Thank

47:24

you. Thank you, Esther. Thank you

47:26

so much. This

47:44

was an Esther calling. A one-time

47:46

intervention phone call reported remotely from two

47:48

points somewhere in the world. If

47:51

you have a question you'd like to explore with

47:53

Esther, could be answered in a 40 or 50

47:55

minute phone call, send her a

47:57

voice message and Esther might just call you. Send

48:00

your question to producer

48:02

at astairparelle.com. Where

48:06

should we begin with Astair Parelle is produced

48:08

by Magnificent News. We're part of

48:10

the Vox Media Podcast Network in

48:12

partnership with New York Magazine and the Cuts. Our

48:15

production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva

48:18

Welchover, Destri Sibley, Kyoeteketana,

48:21

Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan,

48:23

Kristen Mullough, and Julia Mott.

48:26

Original music and additional production by

48:28

Paul Schneider. And the executive

48:30

producers of Where Should We Begin are

48:32

Esther Parelle and Jesse Baker. We'd

48:35

also like to thank Courtney Hamilton,

48:38

Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and

48:40

Jackson.