0:02

Normally, this podcast is couple

0:04

sessions and individual sessions, but

0:07

I have a lot of other

0:09

conversations that are quite important and

0:11

interesting to me. And

0:13

here is one of them that I thought I actually

0:15

really want to bring it, put it on the feed,

0:18

and have you all listen to it. I'm

0:20

sitting and talking with

0:22

Brené Brown, researcher, professor, social

0:24

worker, and activist, host

0:27

of the podcast Unlocking Us. She's

0:30

doing a whole new series on how

0:32

do we live beyond human scale. And

0:35

she asked me a ton of

0:37

very thoughtful questions for which I

0:39

tried to be thoughtful in response.

0:43

And I invite you to listen in. Hi,

0:45

everyone. I'm Brené Brown, and this is

0:49

Unlocking Us.

1:01

This is the first episode in

1:03

a series that we're doing about

1:05

living beyond human scale, the possibilities,

1:08

the costs, and the role of community. It's

1:11

just going to be a series of

1:13

conversations about everything from social

1:16

media, what's great about it

1:18

and what is shi— showy about it,

1:21

AI, everything that's changing in

1:23

our work lives and in the

1:25

way that we produce information and

1:27

consume information, personally and

1:30

professionally. There are so many

1:32

possibilities around this crazy big

1:34

stuff happening around us, but

1:37

at the same time, I'm

1:39

not sure that we are

1:41

socially, biologically, cognitively, and spiritually

1:43

wired to live at

1:45

this kind of scale. And

1:48

so I am going to do several

1:50

podcasts that are Unlocking Us. We're going

1:52

to do a crossover episode and then

1:55

several podcasts on living beyond human scale

1:57

for Dare to Lead. The

2:00

first one is with Ester Perel and I'll tell

2:02

you more, but I'll just use her language from

2:04

this interview that you're getting ready to listen to.

2:07

I thought it was just an incredible way to

2:09

capture living beyond human scale.

2:11

Ester said, I have a

2:13

thousand friends, but not a single person to feed

2:15

my cat. It

2:18

seems like, again, there are

2:20

incredible possibilities and

2:23

there are some big

2:26

fat red flags that I'm experiencing and

2:28

feeling about the scale at which we're

2:30

living right now. Support

2:38

for Where Should We Begin comes from

2:40

Solare, a brand of supplements I use

2:42

myself. Solare has

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this and any stages formula. These

3:10

statements have not been evaluated by

3:12

the FDA and this product is

3:14

not intended to diagnose, treat, cure,

3:17

or prevent any disease. It's

3:20

easy to feel as if the world is falling

3:22

apart. The connection with

3:24

Marty Moskowain features conversations about

3:27

the bonds that hold us

3:29

together, the forces that drive

3:31

us apart, the conflicts that keep

3:33

us from exploring life's possibilities, and

3:35

the qualities that make us unique

3:37

and human. Listen

3:40

to the connection with Marty Moskowain

3:42

wherever you get your podcasts. So

3:46

this first episode is with

3:48

Ester Perelle and we recorded it live at

3:50

South by Southwest in front of the most

3:54

amazing audience. Just thank

3:56

y'all for everyone that was there. I know there was a huge line

3:58

and about 40% the people in line

4:01

were able because it was limited seating and

4:03

I have to say a huge obrigada to

4:05

the Brazilian fans that showed up in mass.

4:07

Just love y'all. Let me tell

4:10

you about Istair. She is a psychotherapist, New

4:12

York Times best-selling author. She is

4:14

recognized as one of today's most

4:16

insightful and original voices on modern

4:18

relationships. She's fluent in nine languages.

4:20

She helms a therapy practice

4:22

in New York City and serves as an organizational

4:25

consultant for Fortune 500 companies around

4:27

the world. Her TED talks

4:29

have honored more than 40 million views in

4:31

her best-selling books, Mating and Captivity and

4:34

The State of Affairs are

4:36

just kind of phenomenons. They've been translated

4:38

into over 30 languages and they

4:41

have been the source material for some

4:43

of the greatest conversations and debates that

4:45

I've ever been in with friends and

4:48

family. She's the host of

4:50

the podcast Where Should We Begin which is

4:52

available everywhere you listen to podcasts and

4:55

she also has a game and let me

4:58

tell you this thing's tricky. You pull out like a prompt

5:00

and you have to share your answers. I've

5:03

done it in a professional room which you got

5:05

to set some boundaries there and then personally it

5:07

is there's some hard prompts. I

5:09

will tell you another exciting thing about

5:11

Istair before we jump in. She shared

5:15

in our interview that she wants to go

5:18

on some first dates with the community

5:23

and so she is doing a tour.

5:25

It's called an evening with Istair

5:27

Perel, the future of relationships love

5:29

and desire and she is

5:32

describing it as a 3,000

5:34

person first date. She wants to talk

5:36

about love, desire, heartbreak, sex and all

5:38

the topics that she is so incredibly

5:41

gifted at talking about and so we will

5:44

put on the website page where you can

5:46

get tickets. After being with her

5:48

in person in front of a group of people I can say

5:50

that wow she's

5:53

just gonna go right there. Whether

5:55

it's just you I mean she and I have a relationship

5:57

off the stage and she'll go right there personally I know

5:59

but she'll go right there in front of hundreds of people

6:01

too. So I think it could be really fun. Let's

6:03

jump into the conversation. Hi.

6:12

Hello, Brittany. It's

6:16

been a while. We were just figuring

6:18

out the last time we were together in person

6:21

was five years ago today

6:23

here. So we got to

6:25

stop meeting like this. And

6:29

so much to talk about. So much to talk

6:31

about. I'm going to

6:33

jump right in because I have literally

6:35

just an hour and it usually would

6:37

take Esther and I about an hour

6:40

to order a sandwich. So we'll

6:42

just get started. So I

6:44

want to start with a story

6:47

that was a real life

6:50

rearranger for me. It's going

6:53

to be our topic and it's going to start

6:56

a whole series of podcasts I'm going to do

6:58

on the topic. So here's the

7:00

story. I'm getting

7:02

my hair done, highlighted, and I'm in

7:04

the foils. I'm in all

7:07

the foils and I'm

7:09

on the phone trying not to crush the foil into

7:11

the phone. And I've got

7:13

my laptop out and I look

7:16

up for a second and I say, hey, do you all

7:18

have a printer I can use? And I'm at the salon.

7:22

And this man that I've just seen one time looks

7:24

at me and says, wow, it feels

7:27

like you've really been shot out

7:29

of a cannon. And I'm

7:32

like, I'm sorry. And

7:35

he said, no, it's just,

7:37

I'm watching you and you

7:39

seem really busy

7:41

and stressed out. And I said, and in

7:43

your own bubble for

7:45

sure. And I said,

7:48

yeah. And he said, I think

7:51

you might have a human scale problem. And

7:55

I was, I was getting

7:57

increasingly pissed because I'm like,

8:00

No, right now I feel like I've got a you

8:02

problem while I'm trying to work and

8:04

get my hair done. Because it's

8:06

a long commitment, two hours is a long hair

8:08

commitment. That's why you have office hours at the

8:11

hair salon. That's why I

8:13

have office hours at the hair salon. Okay, fair enough.

8:16

So I said, what do you mean? I

8:19

closed the laptop, I turned the phone off, I put

8:21

it in my bag, and I said, what do you mean? And

8:24

he said, you know, I'm a private pilot. And

8:28

when you first learn to fly, you're in these little

8:30

two seater planes. And

8:32

if it's hot outside, it's hot in there. And if it's

8:34

cold outside, it's cold in there. And

8:37

he said, when you turn left, you have to move

8:39

your whole body left. And when you

8:41

turn right, your whole body moves right. And

8:43

if a gust of wind comes, you

8:46

can feel it under the plane. And

8:49

when you're going down, you

8:52

get kind of like disoriented because you

8:54

are just at human

8:56

scale. And

8:58

he said, but then it becomes not enough. So

9:01

you wanna fly something faster. And

9:04

you wanna fly something that goes higher. And

9:06

then all of a sudden you're in a jet. And

9:11

if you stay present, you

9:13

die. You actually

9:16

have to live 60, 90

9:18

seconds ahead of

9:20

the moment you're in because you're going

9:22

so fast and so hard and so high. And

9:25

he said, then it's controlled

9:28

flight into terrain. And

9:31

I was like, what? And

9:34

he said, that's an aviation term for when

9:36

a pilot crashes,

9:42

but they thought they had control of the flight to

9:44

the minute they were all dead. Controlled

9:47

flight into terrain. So

9:49

the flight never was always in control, but

9:51

they flew right into the side of the mountain or whatever. So

9:55

he has my attention. I mean. just

10:00

honestly, like controlled flight into terrain. How many

10:02

of you feel a little resonance with that?

10:05

Right. And so I left

10:09

there never not thinking about

10:15

the idea of human scale and

10:19

the cost of

10:21

living beyond how we are physically,

10:24

biologically, spiritually, cognitively,

10:27

emotionally wired to live. And

10:31

so the question I'd like for you to solve in the next

10:33

45 minutes, which is why

10:35

I'm starting this

10:37

series with you, is from social media to trying to

10:39

do something about

10:47

what's going on in a Congo, in Gaza, in

10:53

Sudan, in Ukraine. And we

10:55

are taking in information, AI. Everything

11:04

that we're living in right now feels beyond human scale. I

11:08

don't understand how we leverage

11:11

the possibility and

11:16

innovation inside of being beyond human scale.

11:18

It might have been beyond human scale

11:22

while also not crumbling.

11:29

And so do you see a human, I

11:31

mean, and this is, it's not like we

11:33

rehearsed this. So this is like, do you see

11:35

us trying to

11:38

live beyond human scale right now? When

11:40

I grew up, a scale was something you

11:43

stood on that gave you bad news. Yeah,

11:45

that is one of the scales, my least

11:47

favorite, yes. I

11:49

would answer it like this. I

11:52

see the multiple expressions of

11:54

yearning, of learning. of

12:00

longing, of loneliness,

12:03

of seeking connection, community

12:06

that is a response or

12:08

a reaction to the beyond human

12:11

scale. Okay, you gotta

12:13

say it again. Yeah. What

12:16

I see and what I do and

12:19

who I work with and

12:21

why I speak about what I

12:23

speak about is because the longing,

12:26

the yearning, the quest, the

12:29

sheer need for connection,

12:31

for community, for transcending the

12:33

burdens of the self that

12:36

have never been heavier, for

12:39

having freedom that is unprecedented but

12:41

also living with a tyranny of

12:43

doubt and uncertainty that is unprecedented.

12:46

That's what I am working with. I'm looking

12:48

at what's on the other side of this.

12:51

The bigger things go, the more

12:54

people are looking for something that

12:56

is actually nurturing. In my

12:58

world, the other AI

13:00

is the rise of artificial intimacy.

13:04

Wow. Artificial

13:07

intimacy is all the

13:10

experiences that we currently

13:12

have that are

13:14

so though experiences. They

13:17

should give us the feeling of something

13:19

real but they don't. I

13:21

am talking to you about something

13:23

deeply personal and you're answering me,

13:25

aha. Uh-huh,

13:28

thumbs up. And I

13:31

should be feeling connected,

13:33

open, vulnerable, but

13:36

in fact, you're there but you're not present.

13:39

And I'm feeling a certain kind

13:42

of loneliness. I'm feeling

13:44

this as if. I, another

13:47

way of talking about it is you're

13:50

there but it is almost

13:52

like what we call ambiguous loss because

13:54

instead of feeling connection with you, I

13:56

am actually grieving. I feel like something

13:59

is just. not happening. Ambiguous loss

14:01

is a term that was coined

14:03

by Pauline Buss about

14:05

grieving and the impossibility

14:07

of grieving. So you are there

14:10

sitting in front of me, I

14:12

see you, but you have Alzheimer's

14:14

and you are psychologically or emotionally

14:16

gone. So you're

14:18

physically there but emotionally absent.

14:20

Or you are deployed or

14:22

you are disappeared and you are

14:25

physically gone or miscarriage but

14:27

you are emotionally and psychologically

14:29

present. In both of these situations

14:31

I can't really resolve, are you there

14:33

or are you not there? This

14:36

is what's happening in many of the

14:39

interactions at this moment. And

14:41

that creates a particular kind of

14:44

loneliness. It's not the loneliness of

14:46

being alone, it's the loneliness of

14:49

being with people next to whom

14:51

you should not be feeling lonely

14:53

but in fact you do. That's

14:56

AI, my emotional AI. It's the

14:59

consequence of living in a contactless

15:01

world where there is very, very

15:03

little friction. Now I'm a sex

15:05

therapist too so I believe in

15:07

the importance of friction. It actually

15:10

makes for better sex, you know.

15:14

But if everything is supposed

15:16

to be polished and lost

15:18

then you don't get to

15:20

experience experimentation, doubt, friction,

15:24

conflict that are part of what

15:26

my friend Terry Real calls

15:28

fierce intimacy. And then

15:30

you start to have all these experiences of

15:32

artificial intimacy. I could go on but what

15:34

do you think of that? I mean

15:36

I think it, I see it every day. I think

15:40

I call it counterfeit connection in

15:42

my work. And I think one of

15:44

the things that's really hard about

15:46

counterfeit connection is

15:49

the loneliness it creates. We

15:51

are the most hyper-connected

15:54

group of people in human history and

15:56

the loneliest. Yes but I would switch

15:59

the order of the world, modern

16:02

loneliness masks as

16:04

hyperconnectivity. I

16:08

can have a thousand virtual friends, but

16:10

nobody to feed my cat. Nobody

16:13

to ask to go and pick up a prescription

16:15

at the pharmacy, but a thousand

16:17

people who are giving me likes and

16:19

dislikes and all kinds of things that

16:21

are now becoming the foundation of my

16:23

self-esteem. I

16:26

mean, that's a different kind of loneliness. It's

16:28

not about being physically alone. It's about being

16:30

misunderstood, unseen, rejected, ostracized,

16:33

all of that. I

16:37

definitely know something about that. No,

16:39

I mean, I do know that when

16:42

I went off social media for a year, it was

16:46

one of the best things that ever happened to me personally,

16:48

to be honest with you.

16:51

I'm really wrestling with it

16:53

right now because what I realized is

16:55

that I had so much more energy for

16:57

connections with people. In real life.

16:59

Yeah, that would hold my hair back

17:01

if I was sick and throwing up.

17:04

Would talk to me about my

17:06

mom's dementia journey. Would

17:10

feed my dog. And

17:13

it's almost like if we believe that

17:16

time and energy and focus is

17:19

finite, when

17:21

you live in that world online,

17:24

something's going to give in your real life. I

17:28

mean, something's got to give. And what's so ironic to me, as

17:30

I've been really, really been studying

17:32

social media and talking to a

17:34

lot of researchers in that area,

17:36

so I can better understand it.

17:39

Because what's interesting is that the

17:41

online relationships require

17:44

very little real

17:46

vulnerability. And

17:50

the in-person relationships are massive

17:52

pains in the ass. With

17:55

real people that require a ton

17:57

of vulnerability, a ton of tension.

18:00

a ton of friction and messiness,

18:03

bids for connection, missed bids

18:05

for connection, circle back apologizing.

18:08

Yet the irony to me is the

18:10

stuff that goes viral online are

18:13

normally intimate moments of

18:17

connection that we're missing. They're the

18:19

simple moments. I mean, how many

18:21

of you have sat in front of a dog or cat

18:23

video for 10

18:25

minutes and then sent it to

18:27

everyone and then have no idea where

18:29

your own dog or cat is in your house? And

18:33

if you're finding them, you're just finding them so they'll do

18:35

something funny so you can put it online and

18:38

figure out how many people like you. So

18:41

this is just

18:43

an interesting thing, right? Never

18:46

before have we commodified

18:49

and commercialized our

18:51

personal experiences to such a degree.

18:55

To such a degree that sometimes instead

18:57

of living life, we're

18:59

living experiences of which the value

19:01

will only come once we've posted

19:03

it. Oh my God. I

19:06

mean, if you're a snapper, this would

19:08

be the time to do it. Or

19:10

if you're a clapper, yeah, I mean, I

19:14

was with my daughter and we

19:16

were at a restaurant and

19:19

we were kind of talking to the people across the

19:21

aisle from us. And

19:23

our food came at the same time, two

19:25

different servers at the restaurant. And

19:27

we were just really looking

19:30

and then we looked over at them and the

19:33

woman immediately said, I think she was with a male

19:35

friend or partner, he immediately went for the

19:37

food. She said, stop, the phone

19:39

eats first. Oh yeah, let's take a

19:41

picture. Yeah, and then I

19:44

was almost like, oh yeah, yeah. Does

19:47

this meal exist if we don't photograph

19:49

it? And

19:52

Ellen was just letting, she's 20, my daughter's 24. She's like,

19:54

dig in. I was like, but

19:56

does it matter if it's good? If

19:58

everyone doesn't see it? and

20:01

know that we're eating good food

20:03

like she's like are

20:05

you having a existential crisis or a

20:08

research moment because I'm eating

20:10

I'm starving and I

20:12

was just like lost

20:14

in that question you know I

20:17

sat here two days ago with Trevor

20:19

Noah and all what he was emphasizing

20:21

was can we still have moments of

20:23

which the importance is bound

20:26

with what's actually happening in that

20:28

moment and not

20:30

in the sellable replicable

20:33

value that it will have of the

20:35

record can we have a situation

20:38

where we're not taking the picture of it

20:40

can we be at a concert and listen

20:42

to the music without having to see through

20:44

the phone and record it and we have

20:46

less and less of these mediated non

20:49

mediated experiences you

20:51

know eat but

20:53

I'm gonna tell you I think the phone is

20:55

a vulnerability

20:58

shield the

21:00

phone is a vulnerability sheet on occasion

21:02

yes yeah I think so I think

21:05

it's it's our

21:07

new body it

21:09

feels things it consumes things instead

21:12

of us it's in and I have to

21:14

fight it and

21:17

I'm old a yes I'm

21:19

not like 20 trying to reconcile this

21:21

stuff it's both it's it's

21:23

that and other things I mean I sit

21:25

on the subway in New York City and

21:27

it's like there's not a single person lifting

21:29

their head and on occasion when they catch

21:32

one but yes they quickly go back down

21:34

got some bit scary to make eye contact

21:36

people with people now you know where

21:38

is flirting come on you know it's

21:41

like she's gonna keep

21:43

on it back y'all do the commute

21:45

has become very boring inside there

21:48

needs to be all this so where is happen

21:50

but it's the flirting is not about the

21:53

narrow meaning of it it's where is

21:55

happenstance where is serendipity where

21:58

is spontaneity where is improv those

22:02

aspects of life that actually

22:05

enliven you, that give you energy, that

22:07

make you curious, that make you want

22:09

to approach the others, that make you

22:11

want to meet those that you don't

22:13

know. In that

22:15

sense, the phone becomes a real vulnerability

22:17

sheet, not just on a personal level,

22:19

but on a social level. Because

22:23

when you stand in line, you meet

22:25

people that you otherwise would not meet,

22:27

and you start to talk with people.

22:29

And we call it small talk, but

22:31

that small talk is actually what allows

22:34

us to develop social skills. And

22:36

as we become more and more atrophied,

22:39

we seek refuge in this phone. At

22:41

the same time, this phone is also

22:43

what is allowing families across the globe

22:45

at this very moment to be in

22:47

touch with people who are in dire

22:49

circumstances or who are in a celebratory

22:52

circumstances who they can't participate

22:54

in. So it's disconnect and disconnect.

22:57

It's both at the same time. But

23:01

what happens is when I'm sitting

23:03

with you and I do this as

23:06

I'm talking to you, what I'm

23:08

basically saying is you matter but

23:10

not that much. You're

23:13

important but not really. There

23:15

is this and there is that. And

23:17

that is the kind of loneliness, that is the

23:19

kind of feeling not worthwhile that

23:21

starts to creep in on people.

23:24

That starts to make people feel anxious. And

23:26

from there, people want to talk about a

23:29

mental health crisis. And I'm thinking, is that

23:31

really so? Is there a mental health crisis

23:33

or is there a normal behavior and a

23:35

normal response to a crisis situation? Yeah.

23:39

Yeah, yeah. The

23:43

piece I showed last year, actually, when I

23:46

was here was the still-faced experiment. If

23:49

you don't know, it's a two-minute

23:51

video on YouTube by Etttronic, a

23:53

developmental psychologist who does research on

23:56

infants. And the child plays with the mom.

23:59

And at some point, they say to the mom, now you do

24:01

a still face. And within literally

24:03

30 seconds, the child has

24:06

reached out, the child has smiled,

24:08

the child has tried to make

24:10

contact, and then the child totally

24:12

lose their composure, their whole spine,

24:14

this loses it, because the

24:16

connection has been broken. And then

24:18

when the mother reengages, the child

24:20

follows. When we sit

24:22

with people, and we basically kind

24:24

of are ghosting them in real

24:27

life, they're sitting there, but we

24:29

are busy, one second, and

24:31

you cannot listen. You cannot pay

24:33

attention. One of the

24:35

things that makes us not feel

24:37

lonely is when you feel that

24:39

somebody deeply cares about who you

24:42

are and what you are. And

24:44

that means singular focused attention, deep

24:46

listening. Why? Because the listening

24:48

is not just what happens to the

24:50

person who listens, the listening is what

24:52

shapes what the person will tell. The

24:56

listener creates the speaker, the

24:59

openness, what you

25:01

divulge, how you connect, how vulnerable you

25:03

are. And so that's another way in

25:06

which the phone becomes a vulnerability with

25:09

holder, not just your own, but

25:11

that of the person that you are with. So

25:15

true. I

25:18

said it differently, but it's that

25:20

idea. I know, we're

25:22

tracking, y'all tracking? Yeah. She

25:25

knows me, she understands. I do. I

25:29

speak a stair. Attention

25:32

is such an undervalued form of

25:34

love. Attention

25:36

is an amazing quality,

25:39

because much of the time, when

25:43

people suffer or struggle,

25:45

they don't need fixing because

25:47

some things can't be fixed and

25:49

not in the moment. So all

25:52

they need is a witness. Attention

25:55

is witnessing. To be

25:57

seen and known. To be seen, it's inhaled.

26:00

If somebody next to you, you're

26:02

weeping, you're doing your thing, but they're standing

26:04

there. They don't have to say much of

26:06

anything. And that standing there and the fact

26:08

that they can hold it, meaning that they're

26:10

not getting reactive to it and want you

26:12

to get better fast because they can't tolerate

26:14

it, that is what

26:16

makes us feel not alone. People have suffered

26:19

from the day human beings had existed. There's

26:21

nothing new. But

26:23

they always knew that the suffering needs to take

26:25

place in the company of others. And

26:28

these days, we do too much suffering alone.

26:32

That's the modern loneliness too. Why?

26:35

Because there's less religion, there's

26:37

less places where we go

26:39

collectively. This moment here, this

26:41

quiet in this room, everybody feels it.

26:43

We are breathing the same air after

26:46

years of not breathing the same air

26:48

because we all wear potential contaminants. There's

26:50

a phone. We

26:53

shall wait. Hello,

26:58

I'm in community right now. Exactly.

27:02

And we feel it. We

27:05

know we are supported by the presence of

27:07

these people. They have reactions to what we

27:09

say. They feel it with us. They agree.

27:11

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27:14

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at masterclass.com begin

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masterclass.com begin. Two

29:57

thoughts are coming to mind. team

30:00

meeting and one is about Dave Grohl. Who's

30:02

that? The

30:07

lead singer for the- Who is the American foreigner for

30:09

you? The lead singer for the

30:11

Foo Fighters. The farmer drummer of

30:13

Nirvana. Yeah. So I'll

30:15

go with the team meeting first. So one of

30:17

the things that happened when I took my

30:20

social sabbatical is also at

30:23

the same time doing a lot of

30:25

really important couples work.

30:28

And we, Steve and I were real, coming

30:31

out of COVID, very difficult season for

30:33

many partners, right? Just

30:36

tough. It's mating in captivity. On

30:41

the best day. Yeah.

30:45

So really hard season, doing

30:47

a lot of work, really working

30:49

on one thing, noticing and responding to

30:51

bids for connection. And

30:55

so we're doing that. I think

30:57

you should explain what is bids for connection.

30:59

Oh man, I think you should

31:02

explain what bids for- I mean, I learned it

31:04

from the Gottmans. Yes, it's a very, actually

31:06

the best way in short to bids for

31:08

connection is not just to be nice. And

31:11

it's in the middle of a fight. We're

31:15

having an argument, we're having a fight. And in

31:17

the midst of this, I'm reading this newspaper, this

31:20

article, who reads the newspaper?

31:22

Article. And I say, did you

31:24

read this? Or I'm making

31:26

myself a cup of tea. And I say, do you want a

31:28

cup of tea? That's a

31:31

bid for connection in the middle

31:33

of conflict. So it's

31:35

not just the obvious bids for connection that

31:37

you make when you say, I think of

31:39

you, how are you, thank you. It's the

31:41

way that you maintain the connection when the

31:44

thread is frayed. Yes,

31:46

and in those moments, I'm

31:50

like, okay, so how do you do that? It's

31:52

like, get your shit together, and then you're hosting

31:54

a podcast. You're not in

31:57

therapy, pull it together. But

31:59

Y'all could watch it, it would be.. Oh good right now. I'm

32:02

I think for me is also

32:05

in the moments of the bid

32:07

for connection turning toward yeah. Vs.

32:09

Turning away like did you read the I

32:11

like things are kind of frosty were in

32:14

the like the Cold War and then see

32:16

might say you did You read that article

32:18

in the paper I thought of you. And

32:21

then same snowed. Tell me

32:23

about it or send it to me. I'd like to read it

32:25

turning toward that rather than same. I don't have

32:27

time to read the days right now, so that's a

32:29

very important or two of the bids You don't like.

32:32

Honor? I am Mst. Nice. To be able to

32:34

read the paper today? it has or that

32:36

A lot of work. I don't know who

32:38

would respond like that. Us.

32:43

Renee be known for you not to

32:45

be alone. May I ask something? How

32:47

many of you has says like this?

32:51

But people are. See

32:54

another long. And

32:56

and you know how like when there's a bid?

32:58

I didn't know this until. I like understood the

33:00

architecture of the dead and how it works.

33:02

Like I had to do things. Positively

33:05

first ago and my researcher sees it first.

33:07

and then a or two later, my emotions

33:10

cats up with us. but. Or.

33:13

A site. How's that feel? Like. It

33:15

feels smart but I wonder if the

33:18

hypothesis that no, no, no no and

33:20

how does it feel? ah spot on.

33:22

Now are some like. Feel.

33:25

Far superior, So.

33:29

When I came off a sabbatical. I.

33:32

Was also simultaneously working on bids.

33:34

So one of the things that

33:37

happen is I lost a tolerance.

33:39

I've got a couple of my

33:41

team members here. I lost a

33:43

tolerance. For. In the middle of

33:45

very difficult rumbles at work. People

33:48

starting to type on their laptop or

33:51

checking their fans. By. Became

33:53

re sensitized to and so now I'm notoriously

33:55

like stay, do we need a call on

33:57

Adult Swim because I see people checking your.

34:01

And it is worth it. Easy be down. I'm

34:03

happy take a five minute break but I've become

34:05

so we since. It to it that

34:07

it. Almost feels like a punch to

34:09

the throat when people do it. Spits,

34:12

You know? I think that's when you see

34:15

do we need a break Suddenly people actually

34:17

are aware of what they're doing because we've

34:19

gotten to a place where we don't even

34:21

know we're doing it. Did

34:24

I so cs and is so in power

34:26

foods as that moments that you don't even

34:28

realize that you know. Presence.

34:32

Which is why these gatherings. which

34:34

is why coming in community which

34:36

is why it's understanding that whatever

34:38

the vid that do not responding

34:41

to and the way that you

34:43

over intellectualized that sees us human

34:45

experiences the Lexus expenses. This is

34:47

Norman. This is not an unusual

34:49

thing that just needs to be

34:52

talked about in the office of

34:54

the therapists behind closed doors. And

34:56

what's that so happened is that

34:58

vulnerability is entering the smaller and

35:00

smaller spaces when you know. It

35:02

was We begin is an attempt to

35:05

open, disturb the office and to bring

35:07

you in there and have you be

35:09

a sly on the wall and listening

35:11

to the conversations and avenger but his

35:14

experiences of others so that you can

35:16

actually see yourself and see less alone.

35:19

As loves that the

35:22

normalized normalizing so many

35:24

things that we think

35:26

us pathologize actually normal

35:28

human experiences. And.

35:30

Especially in the realm of relationship

35:32

susan to be experienced, skin or hard

35:34

brig. Nz Betrayals

35:37

Nice and Love. Yeah.

35:39

Hundred quieted. Love them. He does a

35:41

human experiences these don't need to be

35:43

psychologists only and putting a therapist or

35:46

says. That.

35:48

Is a piece that goes together with

35:50

social media is the psychology this and

35:52

of our society. Yeah, I mean

35:54

I wonder about that because on

35:56

the one hand, The more

35:59

information the world hi. It's

36:01

really good to see. Who could say wow, I've

36:04

got some of the symptoms. This is what's happening

36:06

for me at it. So helpful And on the

36:08

other hand, you definitely. See these

36:10

over pathologizing of normal

36:12

human response to hard

36:15

same story. So. The

36:17

publicity does a d stigmatization,

36:19

the the taking people are

36:21

the same and secrecy the

36:24

less positive things is the

36:26

way that we take normal

36:28

range of human experiences and

36:30

make them problematic and facilities

36:32

and psychologists. and then we

36:35

try to weaponize the psychology.

36:37

That's. The next by his you can

36:40

weaponize it on other people to send

36:42

you put people in boxes and you

36:44

think that they don't scenes is named

36:46

them something as if this is it

36:49

for lice, weed seeds. We have phones

36:51

that fluidity doesn't participate enough anymore. How.

36:56

Related. Is

36:58

the pathologizing? Assume

37:01

an experience in response to

37:04

human experience and the individualization

37:06

of the world. Very

37:09

very months. Say.

37:12

More. That's

37:15

my express his either. Across

37:20

it. Wow.

37:23

It's so it's a see through here

37:25

is set to me: Assess assess. Assess.

37:29

So I think that one of

37:31

the insisting transitions that has taken

37:33

place is that for a long

37:35

time. We. Live primarily

37:37

in tribes and in communities that

37:40

is still does taste for the

37:42

majority of the world but not

37:44

in our western corners and in

37:46

the traditional model. The

37:49

authorities clear it some some religion

37:52

and it's some some social hierarchies

37:54

and the stories are cleared. The

37:56

answers are given to the big

37:59

questions and. Three main categories of

38:01

answers has to do with what

38:03

do we do with what we

38:05

cannot understand, what do we do

38:07

when we suffer, and what do

38:10

we do with easel. Those

38:12

are probably the three most important

38:15

sources. concerns that religion has addressed

38:17

for us and it gives you

38:19

set answers. There's not much freedom

38:21

nutlets, person and express, and the

38:23

there's a ton of certainty. Oh,

38:26

I love the that. Part I

38:28

hate the answers, but I love the certainty

38:30

frets. It, that's it. And then

38:32

we move and we gain. We individualize.

38:34

End of individual becomes more and more

38:36

of the Simpsons person and to censor

38:39

units of concerns but that individuals now

38:41

has to sign the big answers themselves.

38:43

To the question of he was just

38:45

a question of morality, to the question

38:47

of suffering and to the question of

38:50

what do you do we discussed that

38:52

is just too complex to put in

38:54

a little. It's mean. And

38:57

that puts a burden on the says

38:59

that creates tremendous amount of doubt and

39:01

uncertainty. but at the same time, we

39:03

don't want to give up that freedom

39:06

because we like to be able to

39:08

generate multiple stories and multiple. Truths.

39:12

That. We. Become more more

39:14

anxious and we become more and

39:16

more isolated. Do.

39:18

We also become more

39:21

susceptible. To. Crazy

39:24

theories that. Answer those things is

39:26

to things that happen. We become

39:28

more recognized in our uniqueness in

39:30

ways that we were not before.

39:32

When you need to conform to

39:35

a community, nobody wants to know

39:37

your authentic self and we become

39:39

more subdued, amenable to. Other.

39:41

Stories that Don't seats a large stories

39:44

because neither is a free market. The

39:46

stories. By

39:48

people who don't always have

39:50

the experience to tell the

39:52

stories. But.

39:55

They have good branding

39:57

and marketing service. I.

40:01

Think if you need it's individualism.

40:04

Secularization. And

40:06

capitalism still sweet together. That.

40:09

Are kind of creating a quite a soup. That's

40:12

one hell of a braid. Yep!

40:16

I mean that platz together? Really tight.

40:18

Yes! Yes,

40:22

Sir. Dave Grohl. So.

40:27

I asked him if he would do this.

40:29

Really weird same with me. At.

40:33

A Cel. With. That the sheer

40:35

this is that was this. Year. Austin

40:38

City Limits of Music Festival thank

40:40

you Yeah and he is like sure

40:42

and as actually planet because now

40:44

when we go on stage or figured

40:46

out of the case. And

40:48

so what I wanted. I've been studying. This

40:53

idea by a meal Durkheim

40:55

of collective effort Essence uses.

40:57

So collective effervescent is when people come

41:00

together. When they first started studying net,

41:02

they thought it was like some kind

41:04

of magic or something scary. They saw.

41:06

It's always in community. Often

41:09

at church where people came

41:11

together and left individual our

41:14

sector a motion to join

41:16

collective emotion. And

41:18

so I didn't really interested in this

41:21

idea of collective effervescent, especially as it

41:23

pertains to music. And

41:25

Dance And Dance. Music and

41:28

dance for sure. And so.

41:30

What? We did is. I

41:33

was in research studies that

41:35

study globally what song. Globally.

41:39

Oh what a great place! Yeah. Do

41:41

people just seeing together randomly no

41:43

matter what's happening? Like what

41:45

would you guess is the number

41:48

one song in Germany? Is.

41:50

Close Three cleric as one of

41:53

them Country Roads Number one song

41:55

saying by Germans in. October best

41:57

across Germany. Right?

42:00

So what we what I did is

42:02

I put together a playlist. I put

42:04

together like ninety seconds of the song

42:07

to see with this audience would. Do

42:09

and David I were onstage talking about the

42:11

response so I would play a song and

42:13

see what people would do and with everything

42:15

from like Welcome to the Jungle by Guns

42:18

and Roses to Sweet Caroline see you take

42:20

me Home Country Roads are sadly say I

42:22

ended with Garth Brooks because it was a

42:24

Texas is that and David never heard that

42:26

song. Friends

42:29

in low places neither does I see

42:31

at offing of are you sometimes get

42:33

this. But people were

42:35

like listening to us talk about

42:37

the theory of Collectors effervescent. And

42:39

the second the music came on,

42:42

The. Lived it's they

42:44

were embodied. Holding hands with

42:46

people that if it's how they

42:48

worked with arm in arm. And

42:51

then it would stop. and they. Would get more cognitive

42:54

and we would talk about. Elements of

42:56

the song. A good heart, a single

42:58

ball, Whatever. That thing is. Burst.

43:02

Think you certain elements that researchers know

43:04

contribute to sing along like the Freddie

43:06

Mercury. Wembley. The

43:09

i like his set at lie

43:11

that age. Where. He

43:13

even did his vocal exercises like

43:15

stood litter and the whole audience

43:17

was completely insane. And.

43:19

So ones are things that I'm.

43:21

Sad that out. His.

43:27

We ask people to put their phones away day than

43:29

I did. And.

43:32

People. Were kind of standing there like. Button,

43:37

they got it and they listen. And

43:39

they last. And they did all these

43:41

things together. And it's like we're

43:44

missing so much. As

43:46

collective jaw way. As

43:49

we start to lose the capacity. To.

43:52

Be Together. With.

43:54

Out. The. Meteor

43:56

of Technologies. Are

43:58

you see the quick? your view relationship

44:01

determines the quality of your life. Now

44:05

I say the quality of your relationships

44:07

determines the quality of your life and

44:09

in real life. I R L. And

44:12

I'm going on tour. I

44:15

have a great you have to tell me about

44:17

that because I was like a stair per hour

44:19

on tour. Rb

44:22

the opening off with the Foo Fighters. Let's

44:24

Go. You

44:27

come you can you know and

44:29

a has on my mind to

44:31

sing with the audience for exactly

44:33

death. I know that sensitive critics

44:35

either vs and I am a

44:37

person who loves to sing in

44:39

groups as when and part of

44:41

the tour is to be. Together

44:44

to breed the same here to

44:46

see the he does some some

44:49

the person next to to understand

44:51

that so many of the experiences

44:53

that we are grappling with a

44:55

collective experiences and that they are

44:58

not meant to be dealt with

45:00

alone in the positives, in the

45:02

rejoicing and that celebratory aspects of

45:04

life and indus painful assessing aspects

45:07

of life This is. Completely.

45:10

Why I want to be in person

45:12

in real time and in real life

45:14

with an audience to discuss love, sex,

45:16

desire, Hard briggs, The stuff that's we've

45:18

all gone through and too often when

45:20

we go to with we think it's

45:22

just happening to me. I

45:26

mean that set. So we going to. Eight.

45:29

Cities he's not to you

45:31

yet The surface. you know,

45:35

I'll find you and has meant that

45:37

they're keeping ass in old suppose I

45:39

mean that Y and Z of First

45:41

Subways a tour And because I am,

45:44

I cannot bear the thought of talking

45:46

to a green dots on the screen

45:48

anymore and imagining people laughing without hearing

45:51

anything. It's. Just

45:53

so. Numbing, Numbing,

45:56

You talk about being and body to

45:58

people you know, we com we, We

46:00

are together. We don't listen with our

46:02

ears. By the way, we listen. We

46:04

diverse. We just heard it here. Yes, Yes! He

46:07

takes when you do that that

46:10

she so is inside of me

46:12

that makes me wanna say something

46:14

else. That is the day is

46:16

ugly. States is moving in community.

46:18

Death is being human semi. Feudal

46:21

fall and I do think. We.

46:24

Are living beyond human scale?

46:26

I think Ally is going

46:28

to really. Pull

46:30

listen to avoid taxes beyond. Human

46:33

scale it already is, but I

46:35

do things that we can leverage.

46:37

The possibility and the innovations of

46:39

that spa still stain. Embodies

46:42

and Healthy and happy as long

46:44

as we have human scale. Community

46:47

and human scale Real relationships

46:49

I think to me. I'm

46:52

putting you, do you? holding

46:54

the tension? A paradox that

46:56

I can explore a world

46:58

that so much bigger than

47:01

me. And

47:03

so. Tremendous.

47:07

And. My billie to do that while.

47:09

Remaining whole is

47:11

completely dependent. On.

47:14

The scaled relationships and community that

47:16

I dealt. To me, that

47:19

and sin. As.

47:22

Having both, but having to reconcile

47:24

them feel like my work at

47:27

least personally. That. I am interested

47:29

in a I. I do loves machine learning. I

47:31

love what's happening. I did good every session here

47:33

and be like sad and I'm gonna run that

47:35

through this and I'm gonna do some spice. On

47:38

and then I'm gonna neurolinguistic program

47:40

the shit out of that and

47:42

like I'm intuit. By.

47:44

Am. But. Then I'm going

47:47

have a dinner party. With.

47:50

My real friends. And

47:52

know technology and my cards?

47:54

Oh your cards are an

47:57

idiot. Know since. Your

48:01

car is give new meaning to stack the deck.

48:03

If you're going to use her cards, you make

48:05

sure you know what's on the top. Five or

48:07

six. Xiadao

48:10

heard that were there like story into conversation

48:12

starters. You do not want to do that

48:14

with some of those with people you do

48:16

not know. Well. We

48:18

are out of practice. With outside the sky

48:20

as I can't do that. The

48:22

reason I'm bringing up the prices?

48:25

because you gonna be a to

48:27

dinner and you're actually gonna have

48:29

a meaningful conversation that connects? I

48:31

mean you're a storyteller. Stories. Create.

48:33

Bridges Suck. The Nixon decreased intimacy

48:35

and their son and said that

48:37

it can be my thoughts any

48:40

tides. It's that it's about the

48:42

quality of the conversation and then.

48:45

You. Go know. Also know that

48:47

burden of the things that is

48:49

difference at least for now. With

48:51

the words of my seen sources,

48:54

the world of relationships is that

48:56

relationship questions are often not binary.

48:58

they're not ones and zeroes state

49:01

be reduced in an either or

49:03

and a more complex the release

49:05

and six some personal to interpersonal

49:07

to internationalists The more it demands

49:10

the ability to hold the contradictions

49:12

to hold the paradox and that

49:14

it's. Not a problem that you says

49:17

that the Thera ducks the two minutes.

49:20

Who. Will say

49:22

I. Support.

49:32

For less of we begin some

49:34

some babbel if you wanted to

49:36

teach it so to communicate would

49:38

you pay them with people or

49:40

a computer? Battle is a science

49:42

back language learning up with lessons

49:44

created by real people for real

49:46

conversations and he does not rely

49:49

on artificial intelligence to build. It's

49:51

ten minutes, listens, Instead, their

49:53

hand crafted by more than

49:55

two hundred language experts focused

49:57

on teaching phrases and vocabulary

49:59

skills. Actually need to communicate.

50:01

I've used that myself, believe it

50:03

or not, even though I speak

50:06

nine languages. but there are some

50:08

languages that I don't know, like

50:10

poses. My parents only spoke Polish

50:12

when they didn't want me to

50:15

understand. hence I wanna learn. It

50:17

is a special limited tangent for

50:19

you right now. Get fifty five

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50:24

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50:31

rules and restrictions

50:33

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50:39

For where should we begin? Comes from shopify.

50:42

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50:44

and businesses need different things at

50:46

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business no matter what state you're

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in shopify.com/justice. I

51:48

want to be mindful of time yes so

51:50

I have some questions for yell a minute

51:52

wait let me ask you know what you're

51:54

going to sing or of asking about the

51:57

singing on and I'll how you I When

51:59

we did the Brady the Wilderness tour I

52:01

don't know if anyone here without that. We

52:04

did a joint seeing you there so we.

52:06

Saying. I think I

52:08

should have done the World Record book. I'm

52:10

looking for someone on my teams week making notes

52:12

like we need to get a world record book

52:15

to this for the biggest pounds. The Zandt

52:17

sing along. Of all

52:19

time because at the end we

52:21

saying if I needed. You by Townes

52:23

Van Zandt. Together. At

52:25

sort of the music in the lyrics. And

52:28

it was. I still look at videos from that and

52:30

it was the most. Amazing. Experience

52:33

So do you know what you're going to? same?

52:36

Size. Two ounces. One

52:39

is, I actually wrote a song. Of

52:44

had a lot of son. A lot of

52:46

fun. You are in danger. Of a

52:48

said I'd. All the best way

52:50

I see that were don't have to

52:52

deal with right? Side note of the

52:55

has a cessna write my own but

52:57

the other one is that I was

52:59

doing a retreat recently as a weeklong

53:02

retreat on relationships and at one point

53:04

of tourists and was going to something

53:06

alone. And. I

53:08

remembered as a song that I had

53:10

just been taught a few days before

53:12

and I basically as the whole route

53:14

to sing it's to the stores and

53:17

any just really says. This.

53:20

Is way too big

53:22

for you to carried

53:25

his own your own

53:27

so you do not

53:30

carry this. Oh little

53:32

no room. To

53:41

cc most southerly as under twenty seats

53:43

are. seeing this to this woman and

53:45

says and does it usually eat Nothing

53:47

needed to be said so I don't

53:50

know that I will. It's not prepared

53:52

in advance but I thought is that

53:54

moment happens to someone else This is

53:57

the song that needs to be some

53:59

It. That you eaten we

54:01

can't take you. saw a way

54:03

that weekend. Three years the community

54:06

around you that makes the sorrow

54:08

worth bearing. So.

54:10

That's nice A.my other son the when

54:12

I wrote is very sun itself is

54:14

it's basically I have all my lines

54:16

say more and put it in a

54:19

real good pop tune. Can

54:21

you give us like a little

54:23

preamble here: Are you saving it

54:25

for the tour? Know that I

54:27

want to do it again. I

54:30

am literally having the most weirdest

54:32

goosebumps Serendipity moments about. It is

54:34

written down so you'll see why

54:36

I'm having this moment At the

54:38

very end of our conversation you

54:40

A for some rapid fire. A

54:43

suitcase and very bad intrepid say

54:45

if I know. We've

54:47

done it before. Same sex with

54:50

us. Yeah, this is not a

54:52

therapist for tech. This

54:54

is were like oh well he ccc.

54:58

I. Never have the best the most the only

55:00

I guess ten things popping in my head at

55:02

the same time. I know, but that's why we

55:04

love you. Because we

55:06

do too. But we live in a world. Of

55:09

like bumper stickers and slogans and we

55:11

reduce ourselves than other people to them.

55:14

So. You give me as

55:16

many answers to these as you want. Or it

55:18

did. Still, Some.

55:20

Curious about as got have your

55:22

first to answer from. We did this

55:25

on unlocking that's a couple years ago.

55:27

Still on the blank form a vulnerability

55:29

is. Getting.

55:33

My sister than just sits. Having

55:36

my tears, some. That. Not

55:38

sure yet these they want to stream. And.

55:41

Wondering where is this old and take

55:44

me. Through. Said.

55:48

It's listen again. Is

55:51

I had another thought that just. As

55:56

soon as I finish. Okay,

55:59

about. The ability is. In my

56:01

worlds where I grew up does

56:03

under rubble day. That.

56:07

Was one thing that's I learned

56:09

from my parents when they said

56:12

they talked about their experiences in

56:14

the concentration camps in the nazi

56:16

cubes and it was clear when

56:18

the vulnerable die only to seiters

56:21

surveys and that has been a

56:23

real challenge for me to. To

56:25

actually have a different set of answers?

56:34

On. That was a vendor vs Say

56:36

and that was that was owner Building

56:38

in Vulnerability is in the moments. Yeah.

56:41

As a mother, that's not an easy thing.

56:43

As a size of me, it probably is

56:45

not an easy think either. Yeah, as a

56:47

child of me, Too. And.

56:51

I'm a big prayer person paramedics a

56:53

person, but one of the things I

56:55

pray for a lot and it's kind

56:57

of my. Take on the

57:00

world around vulnerability is that vulnerability.

57:03

We. All need at the same. But.

57:05

The world as hostile. A

57:07

hostile place for some people. vulnerability. And

57:11

it should be a birthright, not a

57:13

privilege, To be able

57:15

to be vulnerable. Because. It

57:17

is the connection to every experience.

57:20

A We want more. us, more

57:22

love, more joy, more belonging, more

57:24

art, more. Requires.

57:26

Vulnerability yet. In

57:29

a world with. Systemic. Racism.

57:32

With homophobia me like a due to

57:34

the number of clans laws right now

57:37

been it's pushed into the legislative system

57:39

like. Vulnerability

57:41

is dangerous. For. Many

57:43

people. And it robbed

57:45

them of not just that experience, but

57:47

all of the experiences that vulnerabilities flows

57:49

from. And so. It's

57:51

just now when people call and say

57:53

hey we want to do dear to

57:55

lead The first thing we asked is

57:57

great are you willing to green organization.

58:00

The armor is not rewarded or retired.

58:03

But sometimes it is weak players in

58:05

the moment. In the moment for sure

58:07

they'll have lenses. There are moments when

58:10

to be vulnerable when his. Julio

58:12

and then do is the next

58:15

moment when discuss everything you've pushed

58:17

down in order to surveys. Comes.

58:20

Out Dances O'hare tix I

58:22

mean is so hard. Miss

58:25

a story really quick about a second grade

58:27

teacher who. To. Me

58:29

with one of the most amazing people

58:31

that we've seen do some of the

58:33

work that we do. She

58:35

has her has been made or

58:37

cook best. And.

58:41

When. The kids come into their class. They.

58:44

Don't have coats on it, but they

58:46

hang. They're invisible armor on it. Oh.

58:50

And then they are in her class.

58:52

but when they leave their given. A

58:54

couple months to put it back on

58:57

because. She can ensure the safety and

58:59

other classes in their lives. but she

59:01

went to create a space and said

59:03

this visual of that is so like.

59:06

Okay says you must there

59:09

are called to be very

59:11

brave. But. Your

59:13

fears real? You can feel it in

59:15

your throat. What is the very first

59:17

thing you do? The.

59:21

First see I do is I boosted that's

59:23

will. Raise

59:27

your hand if you relate. Yes I'd

59:29

This is the second thing I do

59:32

is I breed and asserting I do

59:34

which is the most important when his

59:36

I hum. I.

59:38

Hum melodies in my head. A

59:42

melody associates me a little bit. Some

59:44

the thing that is Greg A. Assess.

59:49

Slam you can't hum and things at

59:51

the same time. So

59:54

you getting a you regulating by

59:56

hum is. His.

59:59

Name. No no no no idea

1:00:02

is that it's very you know.

1:00:04

But honestly when you you create

1:00:06

a barrier, a space between the

1:00:08

thoughts that is creating the anguish

1:00:10

and your nervous system. So I

1:00:13

am not somebody who can get

1:00:15

my thoughts to move away and

1:00:17

all of that, I've them to

1:00:19

sussex his homies. So but the

1:00:22

humming. Quiet. Since me.

1:00:24

And. License A lot of keepers. I'm

1:00:27

on a platter said he said you

1:00:29

called plunges and you go like this

1:00:32

and new some you can stay another

1:00:34

excess two minutes to. I

1:00:38

will not be able to report that. Means is you

1:00:40

know when it's you hum, you hear your

1:00:42

voice, some insider you do and death is

1:00:44

that. It's like the voice of the you

1:00:47

to in utero. When you

1:00:49

have the baby is the first Stingier

1:00:51

series device of your mother insights and

1:00:53

when you hum few recreate that experience

1:00:55

of the voice inside. Strength.

1:00:59

Class. Has

1:01:02

never as to these sorts of business. And.

1:01:05

He is helpful right having of

1:01:07

your try humming. And

1:01:10

then try it. I

1:01:12

know how to find good songs because I'm. Such. A

1:01:14

life? Yeah. Okay,

1:01:16

so last Tv show that you

1:01:18

binged and loved. I. Actually

1:01:21

went back to what's again see

1:01:23

the world of bridge on flea

1:01:25

bag. I mean

1:01:27

We? I mean no I met her

1:01:29

and and as I decided now that

1:01:31

I know you and you are this

1:01:34

person here and there I need to

1:01:36

go and watch the whole series again.

1:01:38

Is so smart. It's brilliance.

1:01:41

And. Talking about making what's

1:01:44

personal, communal. It. Was

1:01:46

so normalizing in many ways. That scene

1:01:48

with the sister in the shirts and mean

1:01:50

it's. A Swiss? what's my

1:01:52

favorite? Seen as a sister

1:01:54

with a haircut to hook.

1:01:57

yeah she's like is awful.

1:02:00

The branch. Has.

1:02:02

A. Okay, favorite movie? Do

1:02:04

have one. Know

1:02:06

and has Silva and I'm I'm image

1:02:08

of sinicize and I don't have a

1:02:10

save his movies. What? Movie would you tell

1:02:12

us to watch if we haven't seen it? I

1:02:15

didn't Right now I would see

1:02:17

what's anatomy of a saw what

1:02:20

zone of interests. That's

1:02:22

the so silver brain anatomy of a thaw

1:02:24

and zone of insists that of interest for

1:02:27

setting. Oh poor saying so did you watch

1:02:29

for things which isn't as as and putting

1:02:31

it on the list. Okay,

1:02:35

I'm scared to watch it for some real. At

1:02:37

here's the thing and it's a new

1:02:39

as one of my hand us when

1:02:42

they've to teach the run relationships and

1:02:44

six sweaty. I have a list of

1:02:46

about two hundred twenty size movies that

1:02:49

I get to the students. It's an

1:02:51

updated list that starts when I saw

1:02:53

the Scanners in the seventies about movies

1:02:56

about relationships about love, desire, infidelity, betrayal,

1:02:58

all the subject so writes about and

1:03:00

their transposition. Sussex and. That's

1:03:04

my kind of their have a favorite that yeah.

1:03:06

You must have so many. Is

1:03:09

there anything that you would say just stands out?

1:03:11

To you as boy. They. Get this

1:03:13

wrong. I don't

1:03:15

know any of you have ever. What's Night Porter?

1:03:18

Night. On him, anything in

1:03:21

the audience, It's a movie

1:03:23

that really saved me. it's Charlotte

1:03:25

Rampling and Did Bogart and it's

1:03:27

a reenactment of the nests and

1:03:29

then scene of she was the

1:03:31

guards in the camp and and

1:03:33

in meet again in a hotel

1:03:35

by flukes and then decree a

1:03:37

disorders reenactment of the trauma. It's

1:03:39

a trauma movie. For

1:03:42

me it's a sin that as is

1:03:44

as really I mistake of recommending when

1:03:46

I talk to my boys and my

1:03:48

husband and as as we talked about

1:03:50

movies that really club for currencies another

1:03:53

one of those in know and I

1:03:55

guess I watched it way too young

1:03:57

and one of my sons went to

1:03:59

watch this. The insisted get it

1:04:01

is like what's it was a

1:04:03

horrible experience with him. And

1:04:07

I realize recommending movies East Village

1:04:09

did more. Because

1:04:11

you see a film at a particular

1:04:14

moment in your life. Yeah, who knows.

1:04:16

Why does are the seems. That says

1:04:18

some. They seem to, but not. You.

1:04:20

Know. That and never watched him

1:04:23

again. That's the other thing because then

1:04:25

his team's oh my dust. Guess

1:04:27

what was that of where was I that? I thought this

1:04:29

was a. I expect. Okay,

1:04:32

favorite meal of all time.

1:04:36

Oh sees it means is

1:04:38

a good. Best. Stuff

1:04:40

they still. Very

1:04:43

simple whom meets with the olive

1:04:45

oil than just like. Give

1:04:50

us a snapshot of an ordinary moment

1:04:52

in your life. That's. Really

1:04:54

joyful for you. I'm a

1:04:56

builds and girl who less busy the

1:04:59

to define Sig Belgium out of the

1:05:01

girls so I bite or everywhere in

1:05:03

New York City. And

1:05:05

one of my great pleasures is a

1:05:08

to as soon as severe stations and

1:05:10

put on my helmet and I begged

1:05:12

done. And

1:05:14

am Monday thousand Access to start and

1:05:17

less instance and it's I can put

1:05:19

the lives of music in my ears

1:05:21

to. it's just an ordinary moments and

1:05:23

I'm alone and nobody can stop. Me

1:05:26

too movement to say that. Lose. It's

1:05:29

it's a moment of for know in the

1:05:31

studies as real pleasure twice a day. I

1:05:34

can see it. Can you picture it? Up

1:05:37

with a high heels. Out

1:05:39

I wouldn't have imagined it.

1:05:41

Any other way. And

1:05:44

then you talked about your song that he

1:05:46

sang to this woman. One

1:05:49

of my favorite songs as you'll Never

1:05:51

Walk alone. And

1:05:54

I'm wondering if you're excited

1:05:56

about Liverpool? beating. Man.

1:05:58

City Today. As

1:06:00

we speak. Or

1:06:03

with. Which sports or with how.

1:06:06

Are you not a free? Are you not

1:06:08

a football fan? A Premier League European football

1:06:10

fan? I. What's

1:06:13

the World Cup? But I don't I

1:06:15

am a big fan of the word

1:06:17

sucks, but I don't follow. Little no,

1:06:19

no, none of that. It's any Cs

1:06:21

did not succumb. To

1:06:23

play tennis? Yes, Do political, no. I

1:06:26

insist on continuing to place. Then it

1:06:28

is. I'm one of those yeah that

1:06:30

they were com a moment when I

1:06:32

will leave. Me. five years and

1:06:35

in five minutes. So yeah, I was

1:06:37

really hoping she's gonna be a Liverpool

1:06:39

fan because any Liverpool fans of the

1:06:41

audience. Party

1:06:43

of any man cities and.

1:06:46

Okay good we when as as. Where

1:06:49

I live near los base there

1:06:51

is one rest saw that is

1:06:53

Argentina. One restaurant that is Brazil

1:06:55

is one reason or the new

1:06:57

wrong. And

1:06:59

one read saw that is

1:07:01

Mexico Oh yeah, that's the

1:07:03

world. Subsidize the world sizes

1:07:06

and Morocco and a few

1:07:08

other new features. Any of those

1:07:10

are some serious football restaurants. Right there.

1:07:12

Yeah so I I do followed that

1:07:15

but not the Liverpool things are his

1:07:17

sister is therefore I'll yell. Move.

1:07:32

Would it's ah thank. You know, I'm

1:07:34

still thinking about and still thinking about

1:07:36

ai. Not artificial intelligence, but artificial

1:07:38

intimacy. I'm thinking about the billie

1:07:41

to hold the paradox of exploring

1:07:43

a world. That so

1:07:45

much bigger than us, while

1:07:47

also. Trying to say whole and tethered

1:07:49

to what's real and my everyday life.

1:07:51

He now. It's like I'll be seen

1:07:53

in my house thinking about Ai and

1:07:56

ways to use Juri of Machine Learning

1:07:58

and then get sick. I am. The

1:08:00

dishwasher before I leave like were traveling back

1:08:02

and forth. It feels like at the speed

1:08:04

as. Hard

1:08:06

and that's the way I'm feeling.

1:08:08

You can learn all about Astaire

1:08:10

An Easy. Learn more about the

1:08:12

tour that she's going on. How

1:08:14

to get tickets for that on

1:08:16

the episode page on Burn a

1:08:18

brown.com I appreciate you being here.

1:08:20

Think the series is gonna be

1:08:22

really interesting. I'm in the open

1:08:24

up comments. I mean one thing

1:08:26

I want to tell ya is

1:08:28

sad part of me trying to

1:08:30

survive. Been. Thrust,

1:08:33

Into bigger than human scale but

1:08:35

maintain comedian connection. Is. Opening

1:08:38

up the website with comments that having

1:08:40

discussions their i'm also playing with the

1:08:42

idea of getting also sold More and

1:08:44

more newsletter to the community where we

1:08:46

can do surveys together and and talk

1:08:48

to each other in different and son

1:08:50

an innovative ways. But if you go

1:08:52

to bringabout.com you'll learn more about Astaire.

1:08:54

We always have transcripts or the podcast.

1:08:57

you can look up her books and

1:08:59

then you can also talk about what

1:09:01

you learn. I'm excited. To. Hear

1:09:03

more especially questions that you have. Or

1:09:06

eight. Say. Awkward raven kind

1:09:08

and of see next time. I'm

1:09:18

lucky enough to produce Hibernate Brown

1:09:20

Education Research Group. The music is

1:09:22

by Carry Rodrigues and Gina Chavez.

1:09:25

Get new episodes as soon. As they're

1:09:27

published by Following a Mocking

1:09:29

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1:09:31

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1:09:33

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1:09:35

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