0:01

What you are about to hear is a classic

0:04

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0:06

Perel. None of the voices

0:08

in this series are ongoing patients of

0:10

Esther Perel's, and each episode

0:12

is a one-time counseling session. For

0:15

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0:17

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0:19

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0:22

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0:24

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1:30

You know, the first couple of years that we were dating and

1:32

were together, we had a lot

1:34

of really good sex. I consider us

1:36

really sexually compatible. It

1:39

was amazing because I was like, oh

1:41

my God, I've met somebody who's, you know, as intuitive

1:43

as I am. And then,

1:46

like about a year later, it started to peter off. You

1:49

know, I got a really high stress

1:51

job and my reaction to

1:54

stress was to kind of like just lock my sex

1:56

drive away and be like, I can't think about that.

1:58

I don't want to deal with it. that I just

2:00

took one more thing on my to-do list and I have a million things.

2:04

There's some block around sex that's really hard. And

2:06

the day-to-day, so we'll go, you know, months. We

2:09

started to get into this dynamic where I would

2:11

ask and then feel kind of rejected because I

2:13

would get a no. I've

2:16

put on weight in the past five years and I

2:18

don't feel good about my body, so it's harder to

2:20

like think about initiating

2:22

sex. I

2:25

was like, I don't want to initiate all the time. I

2:27

want you to initiate. I think that was

2:29

hard for her because that was like a really different role

2:31

that she hadn't ever occupied and I

2:33

was shifting the rules on her and it was really, I think

2:35

I was asking a lot. This

2:39

is a couple that is together 17 years.

2:44

They are a strong couple, deeply

2:46

connected, close friends, very

2:49

tied with each other, haven't

2:51

gone through major life-changing experiences

2:54

together. Who

2:56

also identify the lack

2:58

of sexual interest and relevance at this

3:00

moment in their life and

3:03

the multiple factors that have influenced

3:05

it, including body changes. I

3:08

know we get seen as a straight couple, we're not a straight

3:10

couple. So like one of my very things

3:12

about therapists are that they're going to think everything has

3:14

to do with me being trans, which it doesn't and

3:16

it's frustrating for both of us. And

3:18

at the same time, you know,

3:21

it's not perfect. Like I still do have things

3:24

about my body that feel uncomfortable. And

3:26

so I'm sure on some level I'm

3:28

not as secure like in me.

3:32

You know, I remember once we were

3:34

sexually intimate and I

3:36

touched him and he said, don't touch

3:38

me like that. You're touching you like a girl.

3:41

And it really freaked me out. And I was like,

3:44

then I don't know how to touch you. I don't

3:46

know how to have sex with you in a way

3:48

that makes you feel good about your body. This

3:54

is where should we begin with Esther Perel. We

4:03

actually met doing theater and

4:06

we got cast in a play together. We didn't

4:08

have any scenes together. I

4:10

thought you were straight at the time for one because

4:12

she kept talking about her ex-boyfriend. And

4:15

I didn't know that you liked me. And

4:19

so I said, I've been thinking about kissing you a

4:21

lot. And then we made out

4:23

for three hours. And that was

4:25

the beginning of our 17 year

4:27

relationship. You were

4:29

dating across the spectrum? It

4:32

was sort of my first

4:34

relationship, relationship with someone

4:37

at the time who was a woman.

4:41

If not totally unidentified.

4:43

You identified as what at that time? I

4:46

was really butch. So I was a very, I

4:48

guess... You identified as a butch. As a butch. Which is

4:50

sort of a zone. And it says

4:52

what for you? To me

4:54

it meant like masculinity that was

4:56

who I was. But I knew I was

4:58

in this other body. But butch

5:01

also to me was the relationship that

5:03

I could have with a woman who was femme.

5:06

And it might look like something that looked heteronormative

5:08

on the outside, but it was different. If

5:11

someone pushed me, I'd push them back. And I'd

5:13

play pool. And I'd wear my leather jacket. And

5:16

I was probably at the time, I can see how I overcompensated

5:20

my masculinity because I really needed to be

5:22

seen a certain way. In

5:24

the way that after I transitioned, some of that went away

5:26

and I just felt like I didn't have

5:28

to prove it so much anymore. And I could just be myself. I

5:31

didn't have to wear a leather jacket if

5:33

I don't want to. I don't have to

5:35

sit with my ankle on my knee. It

5:38

was just more ease to everything after

5:40

I transitioned. I

5:43

did not. I had a

5:45

reluctance to be like, oh, I found the one. I

5:47

found the one person I'm going to be with for the

5:49

rest of my life. I'm 21. This is too

5:51

early. Can I ask you something? Yeah.

5:53

Did you see? I

5:56

didn't think this was going to be the one. So

5:58

When he transitioned, did you... The have a

6:00

feeling that it was a continuation of

6:02

the same relationship or did you actually

6:04

have the sense of oh, I have

6:06

another partner Oh Now I mean that

6:09

it was like the one saying that

6:11

did not feel like a question. Ah,

6:15

I mean I think for him he had a lot of fear

6:17

that I would leave. I. Never

6:19

identified as well as the I never

6:21

identified as someone who was only and

6:23

you know it. It didn't shake me

6:25

in that way. It's so there was

6:27

never a question. In

6:29

my mind that I would. Leave.

6:32

This is love of my life. Nicholas's

6:34

whenever I think. About my future. I

6:36

think about this person and. And that

6:38

is still the chemist. Okay, so

6:41

love didn't move. Loved in laser

6:43

and attraction. I.

6:46

Thought actually that there would

6:48

be saying is. That.

6:50

I would miss about. His

6:54

body. That.

6:56

Actually didn't. Turn out

6:58

to be. Like when

7:00

he thought top surgery I thought I would

7:03

have a really hard time. Does he know

7:05

any of this? You. Do. His

7:09

breasts were. I

7:11

knew that he was uncomfortable with some. I

7:13

knew that he. Did. Not have

7:15

the same relationship to them that are. It's

7:18

if as as the by. By

7:20

the time he got the surgery.

7:23

She. Had been taking hormones.

7:26

He. Started wearing like a surgical binder. Every

7:28

day and. It

7:30

really changed the shape of his

7:32

chest of it wasn't. It

7:35

wasn't a woman's body that I

7:37

was living at had already. It

7:40

just took like a shift in. My.

7:42

Brain that I'm like oh this

7:44

is now This is a man's

7:47

body and. And

7:49

there are sort of two. Things.

7:52

That helps me and terms of the

7:54

way that his body was changing and

7:57

one was. I'm. You.

7:59

Know this is. The person that as can be with

8:01

for the rest my life. my body isn't going on

8:03

the same. My. Body's gonna change more.

8:05

Going to get all together like his body

8:07

isn't gonna. Stay like this anyway.

8:09

And then the other. Saying.

8:12

That helps. Was thinking

8:14

about. Parents. And

8:17

when their kids hit puberty, is there

8:19

a part of you that wishes they

8:21

could stay married and be no? Pre.

8:25

Beer then pre different

8:27

smell of their skin.

8:31

Yeah, of course, there's a part of you

8:33

that wishes that you want them to stay

8:35

a little kid by it. They're.

8:37

Just becoming. More. Themselves,

8:40

they're becoming who they're supposed to

8:42

be. We. Will change

8:44

We really those we

8:46

grow older and or

8:48

been stays steady and

8:50

are appearances Sept two

8:52

it on. Get.

8:55

Us announced he. Of

9:00

Edu. Which part of it's. Citizens as

9:02

own. Pick a person. You pick a story.

9:04

We can go right back to the beginning.

9:07

What? Do you. I.

9:11

Have a sense right away. but she saw me.

9:15

Like. The me on the inside that I never

9:17

really felt like people could see. like for the

9:19

first time somebody was not. To.

9:21

Sing what they needed me to be but

9:23

was genuinely seeing who I was. Interesting that

9:25

person. I'm out so. Or.

9:28

Of person that it ever happened. And

9:31

know you steal kiss. We

9:34

do, but it's not always like that.

9:37

Funny. To say sometimes think congress or

9:39

niches each other like your parents' decision. Like

9:43

I wanted packs a finisher and I when

9:45

I was just the way we used to,

9:47

but it's hard to figure out how to

9:49

make that just happen. That

9:53

slit the birds leave the house.

9:55

No pics. Now. The

9:58

people. It happens

10:00

when we've been together for two or

10:02

three days and we're on vacation and

10:04

work is gone and we're not home.

10:07

That becomes possible again. Really kissing feels

10:09

like kissing again. Um, but

10:12

it, it feels somehow, I don't know, it's gotten

10:14

very hard in the, in the day

10:16

to day. What would happen if

10:19

you took her face and you kissed it the way you want

10:21

to kiss it? She

10:25

would shrug me off or

10:27

say not right now or, and

10:29

also part of me can't feel like it's hard for me to

10:31

feel it in myself. Like I used to have a very high

10:34

sex drive and I used to want to have sex all the time. This

10:38

is before hormones. Yeah, before hormones. And

10:40

as a butch, I think I very

10:42

much understood my role in sex as

10:45

the top and the initiator and all those things. And then

10:47

after I transitioned and also

10:50

we had been together a number of

10:52

years, there was a part of me that's like, I

10:54

don't want to initiate all the time. I want her

10:57

to initiate, which I think was really hard. It was

10:59

a change of rules. And I

11:01

don't think that was a really comfortable place for you to be.

11:05

Once he transitioned, he

11:07

was allowed to no longer abide

11:10

by the strict, stereotypic narratives of

11:12

masculinity as to how a man

11:14

should act sexually. For example,

11:17

he became

11:19

much freer to decide, do

11:22

I want to initiate? Do I feel

11:24

like initiating? I love for my partner

11:26

to initiate as well. I no longer

11:28

need to be the initiator as

11:31

the marker of masculinity. I just

11:33

am. At the

11:35

same time, sexual scripts in

11:37

couples change frequently. And

11:41

in this couple, it's very

11:43

tempting sometimes to assume when

11:45

you have a very dominant

11:49

identifier, trans,

11:51

that everything has

11:54

to be related to the

11:57

fact that he is

11:59

trans. rather than to

12:01

understand that there may be places where

12:03

this is more central and other places

12:05

when it is more context than

12:07

cause. We

12:16

have to take a brief break. Stay

12:18

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14:00

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at checkout. He

15:07

needed to feel like I was attracted to his

15:09

body as it was changing. He needed to feel

15:11

like I wanted to have sex with him. I

15:16

was trying to figure out

15:18

what does that mean if I'm the

15:20

seducer, you know, and also

15:23

had moments of like, why

15:25

do we have to change the way that we have

15:27

sex? Can I give

15:30

me the reverse for a moment? The

15:33

dominant story is I liked

15:36

his being the pursuer. I

15:39

wasn't always comfortable being the initiator. That's

15:42

the dominant story. And

15:44

part of what I want us to do today

15:46

is to emphasize the lesser obvious

15:49

parts. Because when you travel, when

15:51

you're on vacation, when you are relaxed, you can

15:54

find each other. So you have it. It's

15:56

in the system. What

15:58

you're asking is how do we bring the... vacation home

16:00

on occasion. Think

16:03

of one time when you were the

16:06

initiator, the one that

16:08

affirms him. And

16:10

when you felt good about it, when

16:12

was it? For

16:18

your birthday, I just

16:21

said, I'm gonna give

16:23

you a little job tonight. A

16:26

regular or a special? Anything

16:28

at all. Any,

16:33

any sexual activity is special at

16:35

this point. Start

16:38

with the basics. But

16:42

yeah, so, and

16:44

then I think I texted you during the

16:46

day that was like looking forward to tonight.

16:49

So you played with him? Yeah,

16:51

I mean like flirted a little and

16:53

then. And the face that

16:55

you have now is a face

16:57

of enjoyment. Not just a face

16:59

of I owe this to him after all it's his

17:01

birthday, but really is I

17:04

own my desire and

17:06

I'm going to build this anticipation with him.

17:09

And I'm going to let him fantasize

17:11

about it throughout the day, look forward

17:13

to it, anticipate it. And with

17:17

that, increase the tension and

17:19

the intensity. And

17:21

then, like when I

17:24

think about initiating, sometimes

17:26

I'll think, oh, I could

17:28

go for a little sex right now, like I

17:30

could have, you know, I'm feeling a little something.

17:33

My assumption is that if I

17:36

go to you and say, wanna

17:40

make out? He'll

17:42

say, whoa, I need time

17:45

to get there. Like

17:47

I'm not, I can't just jump into it,

17:49

you know? And that's a

17:52

deterrent for you? Yeah, it feels

17:54

like a deterrent. It feels

17:57

like I'm putting pressure on you. to

18:00

get to a sexual place. A

18:04

little bit. She's got the

18:06

pulse. Is that a mark? Yeah,

18:09

yeah. For

18:11

me, it's I feel like I have

18:14

buried my sex drive somewhere that I can't even

18:16

find it sometimes and so if

18:19

there's no sexual energy whatsoever, and then all of

18:21

a sudden she's like, let's make out. I feel

18:24

like I can't find it. I feel

18:26

shitty for not being able to just pull it out and

18:29

be ready to have sex, but I can't figure out

18:31

how to... But that's not

18:33

unusual. That one person

18:37

is in the mood. One person is hungry. One

18:39

person wants to take a walk. One person wants

18:42

to talk and the other person wasn't there at

18:44

the same time with the same thing and the

18:47

whole communication is actually

18:50

about bringing the other

18:52

person into the experience. So

18:55

whatever you would want in order to

18:57

get in the mood to join her

19:00

can start now. Yeah, that's

19:02

true. There have

19:04

been you know, so many years where there's so

19:06

much sort of pressure around it that we

19:08

both jump to this place of

19:10

like feeling

19:13

guilty or feeling like I anticipate

19:18

a moment of like I'm

19:20

not doing this right. I

19:22

think sometimes it feels like I just

19:25

have to be there. There's no easing

19:28

me into the place. Probably

19:31

because I'm not good at saying can

19:33

we slow down and can I have these

19:35

things first? Yeah, and why not? I'm

19:40

really terrible at asking for like I want this

19:42

or this would help. I don't know. I'm just

19:45

I'm bad at it. At

19:47

what? I just want

19:49

to make sure I understand

19:51

this. Is

19:53

it about saying bring me there?

19:56

Take me slowly? Turn me on?

19:59

Yes. Make it happen. Yeah, it's

20:01

like, I don't know, like if it's asking too

20:03

much or it's Or

20:05

you have endorsed a masculine

20:08

view that you should just I

20:11

mean, on some level, I think I feel like, oh,

20:13

a good partner would be ready to

20:15

go, which I mean, in my mind, I know that

20:17

that is not totally logical, but it's just it used

20:20

to be so the case that I was always ready

20:22

to go. And so I think

20:24

I get mad at myself for not being ready. And

20:27

I feel like

20:29

you're not seeing me. And that's

20:31

hard. I guess that's like the very opposite of the

20:33

first time when we kissed and I felt totally seen.

20:35

And now I guess I don't

20:37

feel that. And

20:39

what is at stake in saying

20:42

slow down? That

20:47

she will then

20:49

say nevermind. And that

20:51

will be it. And we won't have any sex and

20:53

it won't go anywhere. And it will never happen for

20:57

another three months or four months or something. Where

21:00

did you learn not to ask? I

21:04

don't know. I don't know. I'm

21:07

bad at asking. And I think there are times when

21:09

I have asked for something. I

21:12

think, oh, I asked for this certain kind of

21:15

play. And then she

21:17

never went there again. I think she hates it. I don't

21:19

think she really likes doing it. She was just doing it

21:22

for me. Do

21:24

we know that she doesn't like to

21:26

do it? Or you basically asked

21:29

a question and offered your own answer. Yeah.

21:32

And part of me thinks I

21:34

told you I like it. But left

21:38

your own devices. You don't go there. So maybe you

21:40

don't. So I think you don't like it. And you've

21:42

never asked. No,

21:45

I guess. You prefer to assume. She

21:48

assumes that you don't

21:50

really want to. You

21:52

assume she doesn't know.

21:54

You're making out with

21:56

your assumptions. Yeah,

22:00

I don't it's so weird because assumptions here

22:02

somehow it feels bizarre that the

22:04

person I trust the most and makes me the

22:06

most happy and I would tell anything to is

22:08

the one person I feel the most nervous around

22:10

when it comes to sex. Yes, I'm glad

22:13

we think it's bizarre. It

22:17

is but I don't know. This

22:20

is the anatomy of one

22:22

of the common sexual impasse.

22:27

I won't initiate, she says,

22:30

because if he's not instantly responding to

22:32

me with the same enthusiasm, then I

22:34

feel that I'm putting pressure on him

22:36

and I'd rather not. So I don't

22:38

bother. He won't

22:40

tell her slow down. Let

22:42

me get into it. Let

22:44

me build my own steam

22:47

because if he tells her what he wants, she will say,

22:49

I won't bother. Drop it. And

22:54

so both of them experiencing

22:57

the vulnerability and the embarrassment

22:59

of putting themselves out there,

23:02

assuming that the other person may not

23:04

respond in kind, end up

23:06

retreating as a way to protect themselves. And

23:08

that creates one of the most entrenched logics

23:10

of sexual avoidance. Would

23:12

you care to check rather than assume? I mean, both of

23:15

you are here.

23:18

But then part of it feels like I'm doing

23:20

all the work. Like I'm checking,

23:22

I'm asking, then I'm checking. Each of you will

23:24

do a small gesture. And if the other one doesn't

23:27

immediately respond in kind, you pull back, you

23:29

assume rejection, you don't respond. If

23:36

the other one doesn't immediately

23:38

respond in kind, you

23:40

pull back, you assume rejection, you assume

23:43

the other one isn't interested. I pressure

23:45

him. I make her do things

23:47

she doesn't like. If you really trust

23:49

each other, as much as you

23:51

both say you do, ask. It

23:56

seems easier said than done.

23:59

Yes. Because the

24:01

only way it becomes easier is

24:04

by doing it. Not

24:06

the sex. At this

24:08

point, you don't need to do sex. And by

24:10

the way, I never think sex is just something

24:12

you do. I think

24:14

it's a place you go. And one

24:16

of the places where you are both going at

24:18

this moment is through rejection,

24:22

lack of interest, lack of

24:24

being seen, all negative thoughts.

24:28

I think when we're not together, when

24:30

I travel and stuff, then if sex

24:34

is a place we go, then I imagine that when we

24:36

come home, we will be in that place. Not the act

24:38

of it, but just the energy of

24:40

it and the flirtation of it and that stuff. But

24:43

then when we come back together, immediately

24:45

it's through the day-to-day, this is what happened

24:47

at work, and this is this, and this

24:49

is the chore. But that's not what blocks

24:52

you. That's normal life. But

24:55

blocks you is that when you transition from

24:58

the domestic to the erotic,

25:00

you transition with a bucket

25:03

of negative thoughts, negative

25:05

anticipation, which then

25:07

acts as a confirmation bias. What

25:11

you're afraid will happen will happen because

25:13

you're making it happen. You

25:16

will cut and curtail every step.

25:21

I can feel myself doing it as you're saying this.

25:23

Good. I'm like, yeah, okay, but

25:25

I'll ask for what I want, but she's going to be

25:27

thinking about work. I'm going to say,

25:29

oh, let's think about what we might do this weekend and

25:31

have some time where we could be in bed more. Then

25:34

she's going to be like, yeah, but I have to

25:36

do this email. She's going to be checking Facebook. Then

25:40

I'm going to feel

25:43

like, well, she doesn't care about having sex with me

25:45

and she doesn't want

25:48

to. This is stupid to ask. I should

25:50

just go do something in

25:53

my own world or go watch some porn

25:55

or just take care of it myself. Now

25:58

let's play this out. Yeah. Do

26:01

it. I

26:03

feel harder to do it. You

26:05

met in theater. Excuse

26:07

me. Can I write my lines down

26:10

at first and then I act them?

26:12

Not improv. I don't improv at all.

26:15

This is not improv. You've been doing

26:17

this for many years. This is a

26:19

terrible scene you've been playing. I'm just

26:21

going to try to redirect it for

26:23

a moment. The

26:27

research on sexuality and the work

26:29

of Emily Nagoski has really put

26:31

forward this idea of the dual

26:34

control system. The

26:36

dual control system is that when it comes

26:38

to sexuality, we all have an accelerator and

26:40

we have breaks. We

26:42

have that which heightens the

26:44

excitement and the enthusiasm and

26:47

that which heightens the inhibitions

26:49

and the stifling. And we

26:52

tend to think that we will

26:55

be more interested, we will have more sexual

26:58

energy if we heighten

27:01

the accelerator. But in

27:04

this couple and in most

27:06

cases, it actually is about

27:08

loosening the breaks. And

27:11

when he says, I feel like I'm doing

27:13

it right now, he's basically showing me his

27:15

break system. We

27:22

are in the midst of our session

27:24

and there is still so

27:26

much to talk about. We

27:28

need to take a brief break. So stay

27:30

with us. This

27:41

episode is brought to you by Visit

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at visitwilliamsburg.com. Hi

28:07

everyone, I'm Brené Brown and this is Unlocking

28:09

Us. In this podcast

28:12

we'll explore ideas, stories, experiences,

28:14

research, books, films, music,

28:17

anything that reflects the universal experiences

28:19

of being human, from the bravest

28:21

moments to our most broken-hearted moments.

28:24

Some episodes will be conversations with the people who

28:26

are teaching me, challenging me,

28:28

confusing me, maybe ticking me

28:30

off a little bit. And some days I'll just

28:32

talk directly to you about what I'm learning

28:35

and how it's changing the way I think

28:37

and feel. The first episodes are out now.

28:39

We're going to do three or four part

28:41

series every quarter, so about 12 to 15

28:43

episodes a year. Unlocking Us will always drop

28:46

on Wednesdays. And now you

28:48

can find me wherever you normally listen

28:50

to your podcasts. You can get new

28:52

episodes as soon as they are published by following

28:54

Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app.

28:57

And as always, stay awkward, brave,

29:00

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29:07

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29:09

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29:42

Listen to the latest episode of Gastropod,

29:44

wherever you get your podcasts. When

29:50

I was traveling, I was

29:52

excited about the thought of coming back. And I thought, I

29:55

wonder if we could just have a weekend where,

29:58

or a day where nobody was around. We didn't

30:00

do anything but take

30:03

showers and lay around naked and laugh

30:06

and be silly and make out. Just

30:10

you and me. Yeah, I

30:13

guess I feel selfish. I just wanna feel like the most

30:15

important thing in

30:17

your mind for a while. Say

30:21

that again. Just wanna feel like the

30:23

most important thing in your world for a while. Sounds

30:27

really wonderful. Say

30:29

it again. It sounds wonderful.

30:33

It sounds like the best

30:35

weekend that we've had in a really long time.

30:38

Is there stuff that you want? When

30:42

you were just talking about, you

30:44

know, when you were away and thinking

30:46

about coming home and making out

30:49

and I always love it. If

30:51

you would tell me that. Like

30:53

I feel like I spent a couple of years really

30:56

struggling with how I was as a lover.

30:58

If I was making you feel good about

31:00

yourself, if I was helping

31:02

affirm your body and I got

31:05

really nervous about everything that I

31:08

was doing. It was hard

31:10

to feel confident. So

31:13

hearing that it

31:15

makes me feel sexy that

31:17

you would come home and say, I want you

31:19

to do this to me or I want us

31:22

to do this. I

31:24

think it feels selfish for me to ask for things

31:26

that I want. Because when I was

31:29

a butcher, it was always about what

31:31

I was gonna give, but I never

31:33

like receiving felt so uncomfortable back then.

31:36

That now I feel like I'm

31:38

being that guy to be like, this is

31:40

what I want. And this is, I don't

31:43

know, which is obviously is not, you're

31:45

saying it would be a good thing to hear. I just. You're

31:49

asking while you're holding your hands in

31:51

between your knees and your shoulders round

31:53

over. Yes, that is true. The

31:57

body that feels shine, open

31:59

this body. and ask her the same

32:01

thing. And remember, what she just told

32:03

you is that when you say

32:05

this, her experience is not that

32:08

you are being selfish. Her experience

32:10

is that you're making her feel special. Did

32:14

you hear that? I did, isn't it? Did

32:16

you? Yes. Yes.

32:20

Yes. That's

32:22

a very different thing. I

32:26

like having sex. But I'm a... OK,

32:29

right now, you're squeezing your

32:31

legs. Yeah, I'm squirming. I

32:34

used to be so much sexier. What

32:37

you used to be is what

32:39

you used to be. And at this moment,

32:41

it's what you want to be. OK.

32:45

Imagine, now I'm totally

32:47

scrunched over, yeah? And I

32:49

say, I love you, I want

32:51

you, do you want to be with me? How

32:54

does that look? Terrible.

32:58

Now, imagine I open my body and my arms, why

33:00

do I say, I don't love you,

33:02

I don't want to be with you. Is that believable?

33:05

It's impossible. Do it

33:07

with me for a second. I just want

33:09

you to imagine and find your own words

33:11

for this. Now, you're totally scrunched over like...

33:14

It's a fun acting exercise, yeah? Yeah, yeah,

33:16

yeah, because I think you will know the

33:19

difference. It is a much more vulnerable thing to do

33:21

to say it. But I

33:23

want you to experience it in your body.

33:25

Your whole life story is about this body.

33:28

The changes of this body, the truth of

33:30

the body, the authenticity of your body. So

33:34

you need to learn to have a

33:36

coherence between the way your body speaks,

33:38

your voice, and the words you use.

33:45

Really tight and small, and I really like

33:47

having sex with you. And it's fun,

33:50

and I want to have it more often. And I love you, and

33:52

I wish we were doing more things together and

33:54

spending time together. Sounds

33:58

terrible. your arms really

34:00

crossed and your body really hunched over. But I

34:02

feel very safe. I sound terrible and

34:05

I feel bad. And

34:07

I feel like if she rejects me, my arms still

34:10

love me and I can take my helmet and go

34:12

away. Correct. It's

34:15

a body that says, I would love for you

34:17

to come in to visit me inside, but I'm

34:19

so sure that you won't come that I've already

34:21

closed it with triple lock in the beginning. So

34:23

don't bother, I'm just kind of sending this out

34:25

there, but I have no intention and no belief

34:27

that this would actually happen. That is very true.

34:30

That is pretty spot on for what's in your head. Put

34:33

this in your own words and put the

34:35

body to it. I

34:39

wanna ask, but I think you're gonna say no anyway. And

34:41

so I don't see what the point is in asking and

34:43

I'm just gonna be

34:45

mad at you and then go somewhere else and do

34:47

something else and not even care because I don't care

34:49

anymore and I don't need to have sex and who

34:52

cares? Whatever. That

34:56

is the best come on one has ever heard. That

35:00

is quite a fabulous script of

35:02

self defeat. Try

35:06

to say the same thing with the

35:08

body open, with your arms open. What's

35:11

the point of having sex? We're never

35:13

gonna have sex. No, it's against the feet.

35:15

We're never gonna have sex. It's gonna be

35:18

terrible. And

35:22

you're just gonna reject me and I'm

35:24

going to crawl

35:26

away into that corner over there. Look at

35:28

her. I don't even care when

35:31

you reject me. Why

35:34

is it harder with fear? So

35:39

what you experience here is

35:41

the need for him to create

35:43

a coherence, a consonance between the words,

35:46

the verbal language and the

35:48

language of the body. And we speak

35:51

with the language of the body for 18

35:53

months before we utter the first words. It

35:55

is our mother tongue. And

35:58

that language is what we... are

36:00

trying to match now with

36:02

his words so that he

36:04

goes from this complete scrunched

36:07

up position to really owning

36:09

it, grounding himself, breathing, putting

36:12

the weight into his pelvic floor and

36:14

from that place if he says I

36:16

really want you, she probably can believe

36:18

him. If he says it

36:20

from this frightened, totally folded

36:23

over place, what she will read

36:25

is I need you to take care of me.

36:28

I'm scared, I'm worried, reassure me.

36:31

That's a different message. What

36:36

was it like for you to see him ask

36:39

from the scrunched up position and

36:42

ask from the I own it

36:44

position? I

36:46

think the scrunched up position made me

36:50

feel more nervous to

36:52

enter in that feeling

36:56

of like am I going to do this wrong? It

36:59

definitely doesn't feel sexual. I'm

37:01

going to now seduce you from

37:04

your fetal position. It

37:09

feels like a seductive feeling, it

37:12

feels like taking

37:14

care of this

37:16

emotional state. From

37:21

the open position, I had the

37:24

urge to stand up and

37:26

hug him or there was

37:28

a funny element. If

37:30

one of us did something that's

37:33

other, it wouldn't be the end of

37:36

the connection. We'd just

37:39

roll with it and be

37:41

able to communicate and have

37:44

fun with it. Shall

37:47

we do it again? Sure. Let's

37:49

get up. But this time we were asking.

37:53

We're

37:56

going from I don't

37:58

get to ask because I'm just here. to give to

38:01

I get to claim and

38:04

the biggest turn on all over the

38:06

world is confidence. If you

38:08

come with the insecurities, the fears, the

38:10

defeating narratives, she'll want to take care

38:12

of you, but

38:15

she will never be desirous of you. She'll

38:18

want to nurture you. That's a different

38:21

feeling. That

38:23

kind of caretaking is not part. No,

38:26

sir. Okay. Finish

38:29

the sentence? It's not part of

38:31

having sex or being intimate in that

38:34

way. All right. It's

38:36

beautiful, but it's different. Something

38:38

else. So,

38:42

take your claim. I

38:44

want to be the

38:46

only thing that's happening. All right. Breathe. You

38:49

have to breathe. In sexuality,

38:51

there is breath, movement,

38:53

and sound. I

38:58

want to spend time with you. I

39:01

want to be the most important thing going on with you. I

39:05

want to laugh. I

39:08

want to feel sexy, but

39:10

that's my responsibility, I think. I

39:14

will try to bring the sexy because

39:16

I have it. It

39:18

just gets lost, but I will bring it. Keep

39:21

going. This body of yours is

39:23

beginning to own this, so

39:25

keep going. I want to

39:27

feel like I am a whole person

39:30

and a whole sexual person, and I want to feel

39:32

like you want something, and I want to give it to you, and I

39:34

want to figure out, I want to know what that is. Beautiful.

39:38

Ground yourself again. And

39:42

now, just keep going. I

39:47

just want to not talk and look at you and sometimes

39:50

kiss you and have everything be

39:52

kind of loose and easy.

39:57

I want to spend time with you and not have to know where we're going. And

40:02

you can ask him, and what else do you want?

40:07

What else do you want? I

40:10

want your hand on my chest. I

40:16

know that like my eyesight is going and I, you're

40:19

a little blurrier when you get close but I

40:21

want to have those moments where I can look into your eyes again

40:23

and we're not in a hurry.

40:27

And I can see things and I can tell you what

40:29

I see and you're interested. Go

40:32

back to the being special. I

40:38

want to feel like I am the most important

40:40

thing to you

40:45

and like when

40:47

you're with me everything else disappears and it's

40:49

just me and you and maybe

40:52

us and those are the three the

40:55

three in the room. What

40:59

else? Cheese. What

41:04

else? I

41:06

want to feel wanted. I

41:10

want to feel like if

41:12

I get a heart on it's exciting and not a burden. I

41:17

want to feel like my body's exciting

41:19

and fun

41:22

and sexy. I

41:27

want it to be us first and

41:30

everything else second or third or fourth.

41:33

I want it to be us first. These

41:38

are tears of joy, sadness,

41:42

longing. I

41:48

feel sad when

41:50

I hear you say that you

41:54

don't feel like you're the

41:56

most important thing. I

42:00

think my

42:03

mind wants to jump from

42:05

there to like guilt or I

42:08

must be, you know, a terrible

42:10

partner if you feel like

42:12

you're not important in my life. He

42:18

says how wonderful you are

42:20

and how he wants to be

42:22

so important and you hear the whole thing

42:24

as you're not doing a good job and

42:26

you're deficient and you're inadequate and once again

42:29

you fucked up. Who's

42:31

that voice? Yeah, there's

42:33

always a part of me that's like, well, you could be

42:35

doing more. And where did you

42:37

learn that sentence? In

42:40

kindergarten? Probably from watching my

42:42

mom. And

42:46

from being the caretaker of

42:48

parts of my family dynamic. It's

42:50

my job to make everyone feel better. So

42:53

when he says I want something, you hear

42:55

what am I doing wrong or not enough.

42:58

You don't really listen to what he says he wants.

43:01

Yeah. Because

43:03

you could have a reaction that says that's a wonderful

43:05

thing he wants from me. I'm so glad that I'm

43:07

the one he wants this from. But

43:10

you take it

43:12

and instantly bang yourself with

43:15

it. So that voice,

43:17

if we put that one a bit aside,

43:19

what's the other one that can come out?

43:21

They're a bunch of them. It

43:26

just all sounds like the

43:29

way we're supposed to be. The

43:32

way that we're supposed to be together. Like

43:35

fun and connected and communicating

43:38

with each other. So

43:43

I'm not sure if you think it's an issue

43:45

because you think it should be different or because

43:47

you really miss it. Which

43:50

is it? I miss it. If

43:54

you miss it, it hurts. It's

43:57

a void. You miss it?

44:00

I miss it. Tell

44:03

him what you miss. He needs to hear it. I

44:06

miss my hands

44:08

on your body. I miss

44:12

the way you touch me. I

44:16

miss you inside me. I

44:19

miss feeling sexy,

44:23

like you

44:26

are attracted to me. I

44:29

miss making you feel good

44:32

about yourself. It

44:34

doesn't feel complete without

44:37

feeling like we

44:40

want each other. I

44:43

miss just feeling

44:46

fun and easy and

44:48

not tied up with all

44:51

these feelings of, like, how do we do this

44:53

right? I

44:55

miss feeling so hard, you know? Like,

44:58

if I can think about, you

45:00

know, coming home and, like, kissing

45:02

you and really being present for it.

45:06

That you're going to do from the moment you

45:09

leave here. You're

45:11

going to create the rituals

45:13

for coming home, where

45:16

you put your device down and

45:18

you go, and you really make

45:21

a connection. Lift your head half

45:23

and say hi, or don't even lift your head anymore because

45:25

you're in the middle of a text. Do

45:30

we have a commitment on that? Yes.

45:35

You have to say it. Yes. I said

45:37

it with my body. Yes, all that. I

45:40

said it with my body. Yes. All of this

45:42

is part of sexuality. All

45:44

of this. If there's no two

45:46

people acknowledging each other, who's going to have sex with

45:49

whom here? And when

45:51

you are absorbed, sometimes

45:54

you can ask, what do you need? And

45:57

sometimes you will tell her.

46:00

You have ten minutes. That's

46:04

okay. So

46:06

said the doctor. The

46:08

doctor said I can say it. He needed

46:10

out a prescription. I'm

46:13

very good. And you do it from

46:15

a place of confidence that is, I

46:17

know what you need in those moments that

46:19

you can't give yourself. And

46:23

I'll help you with that. I

46:26

can put things aside and

46:28

say, let's hang. It's

46:31

harder for her. Help her. And

46:37

she may argue a little bit, yeah, but I need to go to the

46:39

embassy more than that, you know. And you just

46:41

say, I know, I know. It's very important. But

46:43

so is this. You had a beautiful

46:45

thing. You said there's me, there's you, there's us. Us

46:50

needs this now. Us needs

46:52

an electricity bill that's paid. Us

46:54

needs nice sheets on the bed. And

46:56

us needs now some attention. So

47:03

she tends to a zillion projects. You

47:06

tend for the idol. She

47:10

will thank you. She's

47:13

already thanking you. Thank you. Much

47:20

of what I do in the session is about

47:23

loosening the brakes. So

47:26

I send them off with an exercise in

47:29

which they would write down

47:31

the positive anticipation so that when

47:33

they're about to put the foot

47:35

on the brake and come up

47:37

with all the negative cognitions about

47:39

the anticipated rejection rather

47:42

than the anticipated connection, they can

47:44

go back and look at their

47:46

own list and

47:48

remember that they have an alternative right

47:50

there in front of them. But

47:53

the importance of the exercise is

47:56

the understanding that it's

47:58

a practice and you do it. even when

48:00

you're not really in need of it. See,

48:03

we all know that when we go to

48:05

the doctor and we are in pain, we

48:07

are very motivated. I'm doing all my back

48:09

exercises, you know, every day now. And the

48:11

minute it starts to feel a little bit

48:13

better, I do them less often.

48:16

So the paradox here is that

48:18

we have a greater incentive for

48:20

change when we are more in

48:22

pain or even when there is

48:25

a crisis, but we have greater

48:27

latitude for creativity when we are

48:29

doing fine. And

48:31

you want to uphold these two. So for

48:33

this couple, the idea is

48:35

to shift them from a place

48:37

of crisis to a place

48:40

of positive maintenance. You

48:51

just heard a classic session of where should

48:53

we begin with Esther Perel. We

48:55

are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in

48:58

partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

49:01

To apply with your partner for a session on the

49:03

podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on

49:05

each episode, or to sign

49:07

up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to

49:10

estherperel.com. Esther

49:12

Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in

49:14

the State of Affairs. She also

49:16

created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin?

49:19

For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.

49:29

Support for Where Should We Begin comes

49:32

from Masterclass. Masterclass offers

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