0:01

Wind Down with Jenne Kramer and Michael

0:04

Coughlin and I'm her radio podcast

0:07

excited for our guests today because we have

0:10

their book is Everybody Fights?

0:12

Yeah, so why not get

0:15

better at it? But it's interesting.

0:17

It's just yeah, it's an overall interesting

0:19

topic because I

0:22

had posted that thing on social media

0:26

kind of like talking about you know how it can

0:28

be hard at times and fights happen and they stink,

0:30

but you know, I sometimes

0:33

take photos to remember

0:36

that even though in the that

0:38

moment it feels like the end of the world,

0:42

it's not really like once you get out

0:44

of it. Um.

0:47

But it's interesting because so many people have

0:49

them to me and said, like if

0:53

you're so unhappy, like why

0:56

like why stay in your relationship? And

0:58

I'm like, it has nothing to do with an happiness,

1:02

Like I may look unhappy

1:04

at times, like you know, because

1:06

maybe we're fighting or but it's

1:08

not a general unhappiness general

1:10

unhappiness. Does that make sense? Like

1:13

I think if it's every

1:15

day and more times than not than yeah, Like I

1:17

think you need to look in, you need to look

1:20

inside and be like, am I really happy? Like

1:22

is this relations serving relationships?

1:24

Serving me? Am I? My best version right

1:26

now, you know, is it

1:30

is this a constant thing, but

1:32

I think so many times, you

1:34

know, when we have arguments

1:37

or disagreements, that it can it can

1:39

feel like the end of the world, and

1:41

it can feel you

1:44

know, for for most of just like for

1:46

me or you know, it's very like I think it's one

1:49

or the other. Um,

1:51

but I don't think it's a like

1:56

I don't think I'm unhappy,

1:58

you know, well, like I know I'm not

2:00

unhappy, no,

2:03

but I mean I know no,

2:05

but I mean, you know, like I've I've written

2:07

down because at times like it does feel like

2:10

this is too

2:12

hard and we fight and this and that, so

2:14

you know, you start, I started writing down and

2:16

that's been like a helpful tool for me because it's like, okay,

2:19

it's not every day. Has it been a little bit

2:21

more consistent lately, Yeah, And I don't like

2:23

that. But if that continues on

2:25

like that for the entire year, and then that's when you go, okay,

2:28

like maybe my maybe I am

2:31

more times than not unhappy, but

2:33

that's not the reality in this moment, Like

2:36

more times than now, I'm happy, We're happy,

2:38

We're good, you know, I think with Canada

2:40

in the movie and you know some it

2:43

was a little bit more frequent, but

2:45

and then I think if that stays that way, then that's

2:47

when you have to, yeah, maybe evaluate

2:50

your relationship. But that's not But

2:53

it's also like seasons, like people go through

2:56

things and you have to kind of look at it is

2:58

like is this all the time or is this just a

3:00

few times? Because I think a few times is normal.

3:02

Just like the book, like everyone fights, Like everyone

3:04

has fights and disagreements and

3:06

underlying you know, um

3:11

resentments or like it's just about how

3:13

to fight better and like you know, we talked

3:15

about in our book, like the good fights about fighting

3:17

for each other, not against each other. But

3:20

I just like, I don't know. That kind of just kind of struck

3:22

me where because I'm like, like, if you're so

3:24

unhappy? I was like, where did I say I was unhappy?

3:27

Like I know sometimes like we

3:29

may be sad, but it's

3:32

aren't we all unhappy at times?

3:35

It just me, no, everybody

3:37

is, And I think, you know there's there's

3:40

levels of this in our situation,

3:43

you know too, right, It's uh

3:47

for some relationships that don't have a traumatic

3:51

history like we

3:53

do, you know, their

3:55

fights might not carry

3:57

as much weight because of there

4:00

there might not be past triggers and a

4:02

bigger pain that comes up underneath of

4:04

something. So I think

4:07

I think that's a big part of it for for our

4:09

situation, where you know, small

4:11

fights can turn into something bigger because of the things

4:13

that we've been through in our relationship. And

4:16

then I also think it's a personality thing too. I think

4:18

some people are just more inclined to, you

4:21

know, uh, have

4:24

that feeling, not that it's

4:27

negative or positive, just some people are just

4:29

kind of that way.

4:32

And You're You've been more of one of those

4:34

people to kind of be that way of

4:36

where it just feels like the way to the world at

4:39

times. And I

4:41

think that is because of our past, because

4:43

I'm like, I don't want to have to like struggle

4:46

all the time, you know what I mean, Like I don't

4:48

want it to be like this heavy, and it shouldn't

4:51

be, you know, but unfortunately with our past, it's

4:53

like we're way better than

4:55

we were for sure, but it's

4:57

like sometimes just like you

4:59

know, I don't want to like be I

5:03

don't want this to always feel so heavy

5:06

when we just have a simple argument, you

5:09

know, um, And I think

5:11

that's like you said, it's just our situations a little

5:13

bit, you know, walking through that, and

5:16

but I mean, obviously we're like way better

5:18

than it used to be. But I think just the underlying

5:21

question of it all is this, you

5:24

know. I think you can look at your relationship

5:28

and no, and I was just talking to a girlfriend about

5:30

this today on a walk. It's you

5:33

have to kind of just almost yeah, like righte

5:35

it out and be like because in the moment

5:37

it feels so like I'm

5:40

so unhappy. Well, yeah, I'm unhappy right now

5:42

because either I'm not getting one of my

5:45

needs met or you're not getting one of your needs met.

5:47

But that doesn't mean like throw the towel and this

5:49

is over and it's

5:52

terrible that we're fighting. It's like, no, okay,

5:55

someone's needs aren't getting met. Let's

5:57

communicate and grow together

5:59

and get stronger. Now. The problem we're

6:01

unhappiness, I think becomes a thing is

6:04

when there's just no love left to

6:07

continue to fight together. I

6:10

mean that's what I say, Like, apathy is the

6:13

killer. As soon as someone's apathetic

6:15

and just doesn't give it anymore, that's

6:18

when, you know. And I think it's interesting

6:20

too, because you know that book, um

6:24

that we had been reading and

6:26

we're going to get back into now that we're back from

6:28

Canada. Um the vertical marriage with

6:31

David Ann Wilson, that we're going to try to have them on here

6:33

in the near future. But in that book

6:35

it says something that you and I related to where

6:38

she was talking about there talking about a situation

6:41

and how Anne

6:44

was saying she didn't feel chosen um

6:48

and it's the smallest thing, and

6:51

todave to the man, he was just like,

6:53

well, you said yes to me

6:55

on our wedding day. That's like enough for me, you

6:58

know. So I know that's kind of

7:00

how I feel at times. It's easier for

7:02

me to be optimistic, not

7:05

only from our past right because on the perpetrator, so

7:07

obviously I just want to think of the positive.

7:09

And then I think too, It's just something in

7:12

me as a man where I'm just like I'm

7:16

and and being so reminded to I'm like, I'm committed

7:18

to you. I'm committed to our marriage and making it work.

7:21

We're gonna have good days, bad days, good

7:23

faces, bad phaces, but I'm

7:25

in it like I'm in it for life. And

7:27

granted, yeah, I mean we have to grow

7:30

and fight for each other and

7:32

do other things in between. I don't mean to

7:34

make it sounds simplistic

7:37

um because it's not easy.

7:40

Simple. It's a simple simple in theory,

7:42

but it's not easy. But

7:44

it's just, you know, I

7:47

don't know. People are different handled things, different situations,

7:49

and I totally understand, like how at

7:51

times you feel your weight

7:53

than maybe I do,

7:57

meaning p

8:00

because of your personality, because of the

8:02

trauma that I've put you through. It

8:06

being easy, it being more

8:08

understandable for you to have that mindset of

8:10

like in this

8:12

moment, I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, Like

8:15

it's harder for you to see that than me, is what I'm

8:17

saying, You know what I mean. So

8:20

I'm sure a lot of relationships are like that, even if

8:22

there isn't a traumatic thing, just based on their personality,

8:24

it might be easier for one or simpler

8:27

for one to see the light at the end of the of that

8:29

tunnel of that fight than the

8:31

other person, which I think

8:33

is important because if both people

8:35

are just what's the point

8:38

why I can't do this, then

8:40

you're just gonna You're not gonna get anywhere,

8:43

you know. So, yeah,

8:46

I mean, that's it's

8:49

a bummer that people would just I

8:51

can understand why people would see your posts and just make

8:55

up that you're saying you're not happy.

8:57

Yeah, because I was like nowhere, I never

9:00

said anywhere that I wasn't happy. I said,

9:02

you know, it's you said I think I'm happy.

9:05

No, I said, you know, it's

9:08

people fight. No relationship is perfect,

9:10

even though it looks like it on Instagram,

9:13

you know. And yeah, someone

9:15

noticed that we weren't sleeping in the same bed and Canada.

9:18

It's like, Okay, this is doesn't

9:20

mean that we're unhappy. It's just we have things

9:22

that, like any other relationship, that we

9:24

need to continue to grow and get better at

9:26

and communicate better. And you know, listen to

9:29

what we talked about in our own book, and but

9:32

there's nothing that's Yeah,

9:34

it's just it's like, because everybody

9:36

does fight, and some are

9:39

just a little heavier and

9:41

maybe wigh a little bit deeper. But a

9:44

fight is a fight, and you

9:46

know, yeah, and my thing is like you

9:49

know what I tell you a lot of times when

9:52

we're back on the men, like after a rough

9:54

patches, like there's no one else in this world

9:56

I'd rather go through this within you, right,

9:59

like go your life together, and

10:01

that's like the end of the day, that's my thing.

10:03

It's like it's gonna

10:06

be the same if it's with somebody else, you

10:09

know. But so

10:11

I'd rather just I would rather do it with you because I love

10:13

you and I want to do it with you. Well, And that's kind

10:15

of like what my girlfriend never saying, Like if

10:17

the love is still there and two

10:19

people, like we even talked about in our book, like two people

10:21

are willing to work and fight at

10:23

it, like then you can continue

10:26

to grow. But when the love has

10:28

gone to that's just that's

10:30

tough. But yeah, I mean I think

10:32

you have to figure out what you want for yourself

10:35

and look at it.

10:37

Because if if I was unhappy, like I don't

10:39

want Like I have a friend who is in a marriage that's

10:41

not happy. He's not

10:43

changing, he's not willing to

10:46

really change, and it's like and

10:49

I look at her, and I'm like, I don't want to

10:51

spend you know, I'm gonna be forty

10:53

in the next few years. I don't want to spend the next

10:55

forty fighting so hard for

10:58

this and like how my

11:01

unhappy to have my happiness be? Um?

11:06

In in doubt, you know, like I

11:09

I don't want my kids to see that, Like I want the

11:11

next sacrifice your happiness. Yeah, I don't

11:13

want to sacrifice it, and I don't. I'm like, I don't want to if

11:15

it's not going in the direction of stronger,

11:19

healthier, growing, you

11:22

know, happiness, Like what's the like

11:24

then I'm like I agree with people that

11:26

you know, like, then what is the point? Because

11:29

like, I don't want to spend the next forty miserable

11:32

and unhappy and being with someone that

11:34

doesn't want to change, doesn't want to grow, doesn't

11:36

want to work on things. But it's like, that's

11:38

not what's happening. What's happening is we

11:40

are fighting, and we're learning and we're growing,

11:43

and we can still be happy

11:45

and still have fights. And I think

11:47

that's what's so great about you know, our

11:49

book, their book. Everyone fights because

11:52

there's ways to realize

11:55

that it's okay. Deal

11:57

with it, listeners

12:02

and yeah, we fight, deal with it. Yeah

12:04

they know they're subscribed. Um,

12:09

well, let's take a break and get Kim

12:11

and pen On here and let's talk everything

12:14

fights and their book and how

12:16

they work through it. I

12:30

have friends, How are you guys.

12:32

I'm Janna and this is my husband Mike. You

12:35

are I'm him, and this is Pen.

12:39

Guys. I'm

12:41

excited to talk to you because last week

12:43

we talked about some

12:45

kind of fights that we

12:47

were having while we were uh

12:50

essentially re quarantining because we were

12:52

in Vancouver for six weeks. Um

12:55

and I remember getting the breakdown

12:58

and being like, oh, yes, I cannot wait to talk to you

13:00

because you have a book it's called Everybody

13:02

Fights, and you know, someone had asked me It's

13:04

like, oh, I noticed, like Mike wasn't sleeping

13:06

in the bed, you know, while a few nights while

13:08

you were in Canada. And I'm like, look, it's

13:11

just sometimes we fight, you know what I'm

13:13

like, And that's okay, But

13:16

want I just wanted how long have you guys been married for? We've

13:19

been married for going to make me do some

13:22

math here, uh sixteen

13:24

sixteen years? He cheated sixteen

13:27

years and we believe you. You don't

13:29

have that whole rule. I don't go to bed angry.

13:32

No, we go to bed angry sometimes because

13:34

and you know, like people have fomo, I have like

13:37

bombs, like instead of fear of missing out

13:39

of a fear of missing sleep. So I'd rather

13:41

get to sleep, sleep well, wake

13:44

up refreshed, and then we can hash it out.

13:46

Wait, but can you just kind of like dropped a bomb

13:48

though, Like you just said, it's in sixteen

13:51

years since he cheated, no

13:55

getting the number? I

13:57

was. I whispered to her the numbers

14:03

exclusive. No, I heard it too, and I was like maybe

14:05

that I'll just keep on going. I

14:07

hear everything. Sorry

14:11

about that, Um,

14:14

but it's it's great as your tag tagline

14:16

is, why not get better at it? So? How

14:18

do you guys fight better? Um?

14:24

The start of it is we

14:26

talk about the fights.

14:28

The term that we use in the book is metic communicating.

14:31

We take kind of a step back and we Monday

14:33

morning quarterback, if you will. We kind of talk about

14:35

it after it's over. Um, we're

14:37

at the point now where we talk about it while it's going

14:39

on, because there

14:41

are a lot of things that happened to your brain

14:44

and your body during fights that you can't control,

14:46

and it causes you to do stupid crap

14:49

all the time. And we've kind

14:51

of learned what those things are. And once

14:54

we see them coming, uh, we

14:56

take a little bit of a beat, we de escalate and

14:58

we come back when and our you

15:00

know what, our nervous system

15:03

isn't completely haywire well, and

15:05

I do believe you know how to hurt your partner,

15:08

Like you know exactly how you can hurt

15:10

your person, right, you know the very

15:13

specific ways there achilles

15:15

healed in which you can torture them.

15:17

So don't do it. And we

15:20

know now how to zoom out that talking

15:22

about the fight is if

15:25

you've solved the fight, let's say that, like you have

15:27

to come to resolution. But if you can zoom out,

15:29

and that's when we recognize, like any

15:31

fight that started at ten o'clock at night for me

15:33

because I go to bed early because I wake up super

15:35

early, that's not going to end well. So

15:38

we just don't do it. Like so if something comes up

15:40

at night, I'm like, you know what, we're

15:42

going to work this out tomorrow. If that means he sleeps in the guest

15:44

room, like we do that too, Like we've done

15:47

times. Um, we know that after

15:49

a couple of glasses of wine, nothing is going

15:51

to get solved, So we don't do

15:53

that. So now we just don't engage like we

15:55

have these like peacetime conversations

15:57

or wartime conversations. I mean, I think

16:00

sometimes we do still engage. We just have

16:02

to we when we once we realize

16:04

we're engaging, we're like, Okay, we gotta do this some

16:07

of the time. So I

16:09

mean you talked about sleeping in separate rooms

16:11

on that trip. That happens sometimes, and it's I

16:14

think that's better than fighting

16:16

when you're tired and drunk and hungry,

16:19

hungry, Yeah, all the

16:22

above. How long have you guys been together?

16:24

Sixteen years? At what point in your marriage and relationship

16:26

were you like, Okay, we need to start doing

16:29

this different. We

16:31

went to counseling, we started, I think

16:33

it was really when we started working together,

16:36

so about two thousand, thirteen

16:38

and fourteen something like that. And

16:40

I think our marriage was fine. Our marriage

16:42

was good. We weren't calling the divorce lawyer.

16:45

Um, it was fine, you know what I

16:47

mean, but we knew it could have been better.

16:49

And then we kind of like poor

16:52

gasoline on the fire, we started working together. So

16:55

when you are in each other's faces all

16:57

day, raising kids together, living

16:59

together, and trying to be married to each other, it

17:02

was we didn't have boundaries. We like we

17:04

like work just kind of steamrolled all

17:06

the way into the night and in the morning and then

17:08

make it worse. I mean, Michael,

17:11

I I don't know. Uh,

17:14

maybe locker room talk was different

17:16

when you were in the NFL and it is when you go home.

17:19

My job before Kim, I

17:21

wasn't in a locker room. I was in a newsroom. And I'm

17:23

telling you it might be more foul and abrasive

17:26

than an NFL locker the way

17:28

that people talk in newsrooms. And I just

17:30

thought that was how people talked when they work. I had

17:32

done that for fifteen years and then

17:34

I went to work with Kim and she called

17:37

me on it and she's like, you're talking to me like

17:39

b I mean, not

17:42

like I mean. It was a lot of it was a lot of it was kind of stuff

17:44

I picked up from my dad and also people in the newsroom, like a lot

17:46

of passive aggressiveness and just I'm

17:49

looking back on myself, I'm not

17:51

proud, but that was one

17:53

of the that was like one of the early stressors was I

17:56

talked down to her and I talked abrasively

17:58

to her. And I never knew that part

18:00

of him because as a husband, he

18:03

was he was great, Like it was fine, but then that

18:06

kind of that work self displayed.

18:08

Well, Melanie and I talked to each other like that all the time

18:11

his work life, so

18:13

like we talked to each other that way, and then that

18:15

was kind of how it started. Yeah, I know, I can kind

18:17

of relate to on that thing, because

18:20

like one of our big fights that we

18:22

got into in Canada was

18:25

he brought up a work idea. And

18:28

when we talk work, I'm he's

18:31

I don't remember him as my husband or my friend. I

18:34

go into business mode, I go into Chris Jenner.

18:36

I'm like, well, I don't know, like I think, like, you know, we should

18:38

only do this many amounts and like and I just go

18:40

and I don't think about feelings. I'm nice, but I

18:42

just like I'm very direct with my like my words.

18:45

And he takes it as because he'll

18:48

get upset if I say, like, hey, where are you going? If

18:50

I don't put like where are you going babe, like

18:52

a softer tone or

18:54

even though I mean no malicious nous

18:57

or what are you doing? I'm doing work? Well

18:59

what kind of work? But like he gets so like annoyed.

19:02

So it's like I have to always like sugarcoat

19:04

it a little bit. And when I'm talking about work. It's

19:06

very hard for me to sugarcoat work. And

19:08

so it was something where it's like I have to like remember

19:11

in those conversations, like, oh, I'm

19:13

yes, he's still my work partner, but he's also my

19:16

husband. I need to be a little softer with

19:18

like my my tone,

19:20

I guess, and I have to be like I have to throw

19:22

in a baby here, like a

19:24

baby, a little baby, little honey.

19:27

So I feel that, and I feel like we've

19:30

had that issue before in

19:33

in that sometimes like a lot of

19:35

the ideas for silly videos will

19:37

come out of my head and then pen

19:39

does the magic and goes into the magic song

19:41

room and make a song about it or something like that.

19:44

But sometimes I'll say stuff and he's just not listening,

19:47

and then when another person says

19:49

it, it's a brilliant idea, so

19:52

it's that same. And then or I'll

19:54

have an idea and we call it like duck

19:56

hunting or whatever, what a clay pigeon

19:58

or whatever you like, and

20:00

just shoot it out of the sky. And so

20:03

I'll have I'll have an idea and

20:05

he'll just do the same thing.

20:08

But we had we actually wrote about it in the book one

20:10

thing. I put it like this big scary idea

20:12

that I wanted to, like we wrote

20:14

about in the book. Because I

20:17

had this big scary idea, I felt like, we

20:20

should write a Broadway musical. By

20:22

the way, it takes like twenty years to get a musical on Broadway.

20:25

It is the most like scariest,

20:27

weirdest thing ever. Right, And so you say that

20:29

loud, and you say it to your partner and

20:31

then so his his his business

20:34

hat goes on right just like you were talking.

20:36

And his response was, is that the

20:38

best use of your time? And I was

20:40

like, now,

20:42

I didn't say that mean now,

20:46

I would just be like, I just think there's I wouldn't

20:49

say like, because that's that's what I would love to

20:51

say. But I've learned, like, and so I'm

20:53

better than pen he

20:57

learned. And then I didn't handle it well because I got

20:59

out of a moving car and walked home. Um,

21:02

and so I didn't handle that well. But

21:05

literally, like we took that fight to our counselor

21:07

and like we we talked about that way. So we've

21:09

both learned a lot. We learned a lot from counseling,

21:11

We learned a lot from writing this book. So,

21:14

yeah, being married, have you ever

21:17

had something where you're just like, I just don't know

21:19

if like I can continue

21:21

on this journey where

21:24

it's just it's it's just too

21:26

hard, or it's just there's you just don't

21:28

cease anything changing and you feel like you're just like

21:31

beating your head up against the wall. Or is that

21:33

just normal marriage feelings

21:35

and thoughts. I've had those

21:37

micro feelings, um,

21:39

And by that, I mean like, while I'm in the thick

21:41

of an argument where I realized that I'm

21:43

just not getting anywhere and we're going in the same

21:45

space. There's this sort of grief

21:48

and hopelessness that comes with that, And

21:51

I'm I feel very lucky to say that

21:53

it's never lasted more than a

21:56

few moments, um,

21:58

but I know that that

22:00

does happen. Yeah, And my

22:03

my parents got divorced, and they were they

22:06

were separated and back

22:08

together and separating back together before they got divorced,

22:10

like my entire childhood. So

22:13

I learned. And one of the things we

22:15

we learned about each other's like our fighting styles

22:18

and mine was what I saw modeled

22:20

right, which was you just leave. So

22:23

when Penn said, is that the best use

22:25

super time which is not what he meant, and it just

22:28

came out really abrasively instead of

22:30

engaging. I

22:33

literally got out of a moving car and left. And

22:35

so the beginning and up until

22:37

we went to therapy, my instinct

22:40

was, he says something that I don't agree

22:42

with, I feel I feel belittled, I feel

22:44

stupid, and I leave.

22:47

And so that is my instinct. So

22:49

my instinct is to leave, and it

22:51

works on me because my biggest

22:53

fear and my the thing that hurts me the most

22:56

is being alone or or

22:58

more simply just people not liking me, like I'm one

23:00

of those guys that needs everybody to like him.

23:02

I'm sorry, I'm just gonna call it like it is, and

23:05

and so

23:07

so you know, that's that's

23:09

where some of the hopelessness comes from. And

23:12

what we're learning through a lot of this is

23:15

I still believe that was not the best use

23:17

of her time. I'll take that

23:21

she was doing like a billion things.

23:23

We can talk about this now because we've deescalated

23:25

from the fight. She even admits she like had she had

23:27

taken on a lot of things, and the inside

23:30

in my head was like, oh my god, she's taking on something

23:32

else. We can't do any more of this. I'm not

23:34

getting asleep as it is. We're doing a thousand things.

23:37

But you should never answer

23:39

a question that way, in a demeaning way,

23:41

and project back on that person that's invalidating

23:44

their feelings. You should say back, I hear you,

23:46

I hear what you're saying. Here's what I feel.

23:48

I didn't do any of those things. I

23:50

just I just kind of, you know, put the shotgun

23:53

out and shot it down. So if

23:56

I could have gotten my opinion across, and we would

23:58

have been fine if I just found the right way to come. But

24:00

to answer your question, like, are were there moments?

24:03

There were There's never been a moment personally,

24:06

and I think Kendall say the same, where we were

24:08

on the brink of not making it. But

24:11

are there moments and flashes where

24:13

all of my personal history comes

24:15

up and I think, you know what, I'm packing the kids up

24:17

and I'm heading out of town. Like I've

24:19

had plenty of those moments because that's

24:22

my instinct. So we've learned, Like, so

24:24

now I have to do the work

24:26

and sit in my butt in the chair and

24:29

take the rest, and I have to sit there and

24:31

I have to engage because that's what's hard

24:33

for me. And then his like he used

24:36

to just like i'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,

24:38

anything, to just de escalate anything.

24:40

It's so hard. So now he has to sit his butt

24:42

in the chair and say no, that hurt my feelings.

24:45

Like when you left me, that hurt my

24:47

feelings. So we have to show up in different

24:49

ways. But it was all about learning how our

24:51

fighting styles. How about

24:54

when it came to working together. Obviously you guys

24:56

do a million things together, but when it came to the

24:58

book and you guys are sitting down starting, it's

25:00

like, okay, we're going to write a book. Let's do this.

25:02

How was that process for you and with your

25:04

working styles? Because I know for us we worked completely

25:07

different, So it was a challenge to figure

25:09

out that kind of dance. Right, how is that for you

25:11

guys? Well, Kim was

25:13

already very up

25:15

for self help, self improvement,

25:18

self advancement. I've read every book.

25:20

I've read every Yeah, I've read them all. I

25:22

don't I do not read those books. I'm

25:24

sorry, Like I had to read them a ton during

25:27

research for this book. But I

25:29

mean we had to get over the initial hump, which

25:31

was. I felt like everything

25:33

was pretty good. I felt like we were doing okay,

25:36

like we were getting passing grades.

25:38

Kim thought that we could be better. I thought

25:41

that that meant that she was saying that she didn't

25:43

like our marriage and that this whole thing was a failure.

25:46

Um, she had to reassure me of that.

25:48

And then really we had to kind of find a really

25:51

trusted person to come in and start talking

25:53

to us. The guy who helped write the book with us. He's

25:55

our church pastor, but he's also been a friend of mine for

25:57

twenty years and he I

26:00

mean, the process became very easy when

26:03

he came in because he broke

26:05

it down for me two

26:07

data points and ones and zeros

26:09

and things that you can and things that you can't do and

26:11

what goes on in your brain the

26:14

way that I can understand it. Yeah, And so let's

26:16

be clear, he's the person that he specializes

26:18

in like marriage counseling, a marriage care and he's

26:20

the person that we went to. So we

26:23

basically took the ten fights and it worked

26:25

best with like the ten fights. And we think everybody

26:28

has which is like we're having

26:30

enough sex. I do everything, you do nothing,

26:32

you're spending too much money like those those ten

26:34

fight topics. And then we it

26:36

became simpler. That's all we do about.

26:40

It became simpler when we figured out, like

26:42

I'm going to write my part, he writes his part, and

26:44

then an editor kind of

26:47

cut cuts and past they reached it, and

26:49

then Christopher says stuff, and then we do research.

26:51

Yeah, and then we did a bunch of research. I'm

26:54

so excited to read this. It's

26:56

I feel like it's just comfortable right into place for us.

26:58

Yeah, too,

27:01

we had fun and in audible you'll like that one too.

27:03

I feel like it's similar where

27:06

we have because we wrote a book as well where we

27:08

kind of share both of our sides, and you

27:10

know, I feel like it's it's it's

27:12

just it's good that these books are coming

27:14

out because I like when people couples

27:17

share their experiences from both

27:19

sides, because it's both sides need to be

27:21

heard. And I think that's where and even relationships,

27:24

why we escalate is because we're just wanting

27:26

to be heard, you know, and from wanting

27:29

to be heard, we just escalate to

27:31

the you know, the worst degree.

27:34

That's right, And I wonder

27:36

I'm curious if you guys had a similar response

27:38

that I did. Maybe one of you did or both of

27:41

you did. I uh, we're

27:43

public figures were on the internet all the time

27:46

we wrote the book. Um,

27:48

we put the pen down to paper and it felt

27:50

okay, and then I had to read the audible version

27:52

of it and some of the stuff was really deep. It

27:55

was like, I was so uncomfortable.

27:58

The first time I had to say that was like

28:00

you're reading a diary entreat. I'm like this

28:04

about our sex life and now people, my mom's

28:06

going to hear this. Once I got

28:08

over it, it was tough. The first time, it was crazy.

28:11

It was Yeah, we had

28:13

the at least I know, I had the same experience where

28:15

we're sitting there in the studio kind of like this and we're sitting

28:17

there reading it like back and forth our

28:20

parts, and I'll just kind of step back, like do

28:23

we are we sure we really want to do this? Like

28:25

the stuff that we're saying right now, like is this going

28:27

to be received the way we hope it's going to be received?

28:30

Because it's I mean, but it's good that, like Jenna say, it's

28:32

like so many books before you

28:35

know, some of these, like you guys are putting out. It's

28:38

from one person on who's a clinical

28:40

professional, who you know, acts like

28:42

they have it all figured out and this is the steps

28:44

to do it. But then you know they

28:47

haven't gone through them themselves maybe, And so

28:49

to hear from somebody like you, guys, I know, for us,

28:51

it's gonna be refreshing to hear y'all's

28:53

words, be like, man, we're not alone

28:55

either, yeah, And don't you

28:57

feel like you know, when you're dating somebody, like

29:00

you can talk to your girlfriends about like,

29:02

oh, we got in a fight and every you know, and

29:04

you can talk about that, But as soon as you're married,

29:06

there's this like veil of secrecy, like we

29:08

no longer talk about our relationships

29:11

with people really. And then

29:13

it was only when we kind

29:15

of told our circle of friends we were doing the research

29:18

for this book and we were writing this book that people can

29:20

fide in us about a lot

29:22

of the issues they were having and they were asking

29:25

us for advice, and I was like, guys,

29:27

we should be talking about this, and let's normalize

29:29

the fact that no marriage is perfect, no

29:31

relationship is perfect. A good

29:34

marriage can become a great

29:36

marriage. And really, there are some really easy

29:38

communication hacks

29:40

that we've put into place. So how can

29:43

a good marriage become a great marriage? I

29:46

mean it's communication

29:49

based, at least in our book it is.

29:51

I mean, fights are all about going back and forth.

29:54

The cliffs

29:56

notes of it is. We have these scripts,

29:58

and we have these magic words you can say when you're in

30:00

the middle of a of an argument. Could you give

30:03

us right now? Yeah? Sure, um,

30:06

you just that you kind of almost did do

30:08

when they're tell me more is one of the best

30:10

ones that you can do when someone's finished talking, instead

30:12

of turning it around and disagreeing with it, make

30:15

an effort to try to understand it better and

30:17

say tell me more. So even said when

30:19

I had said, Penn, I think we should read

30:21

a Broadway musical. If Penn and said

30:24

tell me more, and I'm like, I'm

30:26

really just you know, yearning for creative

30:28

outlet right now, I feel really bogged down with this,

30:30

this this. If you had followed up with tell

30:32

me more about that, if you just let me spiral

30:34

and talk that that wasn't even

30:37

a fight, right, Oh my god, that would have helped us

30:39

so much. When we were in Vancouver because I

30:41

was overwhelmed with work, like had

30:43

been filming a movie for you know, three and a half

30:45

weeks, and I was like, Mike, I

30:48

I'm feeling like claustrophobic.

30:50

I don't I don't want to go home yet, like I

30:52

feel like I haven't had it. I need to have fun. I need to

30:54

decompress before I go back home to Nashville.

30:56

And I'm back in mom work mode. And

30:59

he's like, if you would have said tell me more,

31:01

I would have I would have felt so heard

31:04

and just like you care.

31:07

And if I would have said tell me more about

31:09

your gun business you wanted to do instead of being like

31:12

that's what you want to do right now? Like yeah,

31:16

like are you trying? It's the best easy of your time, said

31:18

Penn, But really, what Jenna

31:20

want. I'm gonna start hearing Penn's voice now every time,

31:22

like I know you want to say that Pen's voice,

31:29

but also simple to say, like tell me more,

31:31

because you don't have to agree with it, understand

31:34

it, but you to be like I would love to

31:36

hear like tell me more, man, I'm interested,

31:39

and then repeat back what what he's

31:41

saying. It's like, okay, so what I hear you say

31:44

is you're really interested in starting this business,

31:46

Okay, and then so you just like

31:49

repeat back and it doesn't commit you to an

31:51

answer. But I think you had pointed

31:53

this out in the beginning, is that

31:55

we are all here in this partnership

31:57

just to be seen. And my job in this part

32:00

ownership is just to be a witness to his life

32:02

story. My job is to

32:04

be his pr person.

32:06

My job is to be his hype man. Right.

32:09

He does not complete me, I do not complete

32:11

him. But we are partners. We are jumping off this

32:13

cliff together and holding hands. And if we

32:15

can't show up for each other in that way

32:18

and he can't see me, and if I can't

32:20

really see him, and what are we doing?

32:23

Right? And so that's why our marriage

32:25

was fine. Our marriage was fine.

32:27

We did carpool, we would get in a fight,

32:29

we would laugh at a TV show, we'd have sex.

32:31

We were and it was fine. But like to

32:33

really have those great those

32:36

great moments of connection, um,

32:38

those really just weren't even happening. So

32:42

that's why I just when I went that I'm a very

32:44

um, I just recently learned I'm in any Graham

32:47

type one and that means I'm a perfectionists

32:49

allegedly. I know, right, I'm

32:53

not. I'm not a type plan. I'm

32:56

a I'm a what a positives?

32:59

My ever a Blone Retriever job would be,

33:01

I'm a futuristic

33:04

positives. He's

33:07

like a messy, happy person. And so

33:09

when I went into this counseling, I had a notebook.

33:12

I'm like, just tell me exactly what to say. Tell

33:14

me what to say when he comes at me with this, or

33:16

tell me what to say when I'm feeling because I have anxiety

33:19

and depression, like when I'm spiraling

33:21

and he doesn't understand me. That tell me the words

33:23

to say. And then that's exactly just like what

33:25

we wrote in our book at the end of the chapters

33:27

were like, shortcut, just say this because

33:30

there are times when I'm like, you're saying claustrophobic.

33:32

That's what anxiety feels like to me. It feels

33:34

like somebody standing on my chest and I have

33:36

trouble breathing. And how do I explain

33:38

that to somebody who's like a Golden Retriever, right,

33:40

Like he's experience that in his whole life. But

33:43

then but through this he's been

33:45

able to see and hear me and

33:48

knows now exactly what I need in those moments,

33:50

and then you know, and then I can

33:52

help him through his I

33:57

love tell me more where I'm definitely gonna take

33:59

that. Do it. I've got some more

34:01

for you if you want to. Here's another one. If

34:03

you want something and this includes

34:05

sex, this includes anything. If you

34:07

want something, tell the person

34:09

what you want and and say

34:12

because after whatever it is that you want,

34:15

say because it's like scientifically

34:17

proven if you give a reason for what you want,

34:20

you're more likely to. Yeah.

34:22

The other the other thing you

34:24

can do to go even further is Kim

34:26

can say why, and you can say because

34:29

it can and then she can say why and you can say

34:31

because again and after the third because you're

34:33

really getting to the heart of the matter at that point. Yeah,

34:35

like I really I've been working so hard

34:38

and this movie, I really feel the need

34:40

to relax and online. But we did that

34:42

and there was a no. Well,

34:44

and then he's well, and you said,

34:47

because I feel like

34:49

we need to connect before we just

34:51

jump back into our lives as parents,

34:53

as working people, and then he said

34:55

no, and then what happens and

34:57

then and then you say I and

35:00

feel I feel because

35:02

you keep going this until you understand

35:04

each other. That

35:08

one might be a little harder because

35:10

I feel like I am semi direct

35:13

with my words better.

35:15

I used to be super passive, and I feel like now I'm

35:18

more on train or on track of being

35:21

direct. Yeah. It's kind

35:23

of a motto in our marriage is like mature people

35:25

ask for what they want. I used to just like

35:27

he's like, what do you want for lunch? And like I don't care, just get

35:29

me whatever? Like no, just mature people,

35:32

Like, yeah, mature

35:34

people need more pen. There's

35:36

a bunch, um there is

35:39

h This one takes a little

35:41

bit of explaining. Um, we

35:43

have a we have a code that we say called secret

35:45

contract and it basically means,

35:47

okay, so you guys have secret contracts.

35:50

If you've been married, if you've been together for

35:52

a week, you start building these things. They're unspoken

35:54

things that you do that you

35:56

just do. Kim just changes

35:59

the toilet paper, always changed. She

36:02

does the cooking, I do the dishes. She wakes

36:04

the kids up, I take him to school because she doesn't

36:07

want to put a brawl on. Um

36:09

I uh yeah,

36:12

I put the dogs to sleep, she lets me sleep in. Most

36:14

of these are really good contracts, but every

36:17

once in a while, there's something that you have been

36:19

kind of tasked with doing that deep down

36:21

you hate, and that will bubble

36:24

up into in Kim's case, like a giant

36:26

um week long strike

36:29

against toilet paper that she took to Instagram

36:31

on and like publicly shamed her husband about not changing

36:34

for a week. We there was no toilet paper in the bathroom

36:36

and he continued to use it. No,

36:38

no, because there was a clean X box underneath

36:41

the sink, and clean X if you like, let it

36:43

sit in the toilet for a little while. It won't call

36:45

it the toilet, and it's a hundred times softer and better

36:47

than toilet. Ever, I'm just saying that out loud if

36:50

some might call your genius.

36:54

But then it's so secret. Contracts were great

36:56

if they work for you, right, But I was very presentable

36:58

because I did all the house where his secret

37:01

contract the role he plays, he has the Golden

37:03

retreat for in our marriage. Right, So he's the he's

37:05

the hype man, he's the cheerleader, he's the fun guy.

37:07

But what happens when he goes through some

37:09

stuff and he needs to be sad, Like he always

37:11

feels like he has to be happy, and

37:14

so I just if I know he's going through stuff,

37:16

like he's gone through some stuff with his parents, I'll just say a

37:18

secret contract. I got this.

37:21

You can be sad now I can. I got

37:23

this. And if kims head anxiety and

37:25

she's been up all night, she'll she'll,

37:28

you know, she'll kind of rub

37:30

my shoulder at about seven o'clock and say, secret contract,

37:33

I need you to take the kids. And it's it's one

37:35

of those situations where you know, as soon as she says

37:37

that I do this all the time, it's

37:39

okay, but for now I'd like to change

37:41

it. Um so's Yeah,

37:44

it's just kind of like the roles like we've talked

37:46

about. Yeah, it's just and

37:48

we defined talk about we never

37:51

had the discussion that I was always going to be the person who

37:53

would change the toilet paper. I never

37:55

already decided that. It was just it just happened,

37:58

you know. I think it's I think that's a really important one, because

38:01

you start to have resentment if you if

38:03

those roles aren't if

38:05

it's actually something you don't want to be doing. It's

38:07

like laundry for her, she always just

38:09

kind of happens to do it. Like the kids laundry,

38:12

and we never decided, but I think that's

38:14

the one you hold resentment. It's

38:17

just acknowledgement sometimes, you know,

38:19

just the I'm obviously

38:21

my mom. I'm it's fine, it's part of one of my duties.

38:23

But it's like, you know, we

38:26

usually we discuss like you're the cook, I'm the cleaner.

38:28

You know, it's just the right

38:31

I mean, you know, really what

38:34

we don't want to discuss. It just kind of well

38:36

like we do when am

38:38

I going to cook? I don't cook right because I'm

38:40

a better cook and

38:42

it works. So that's a super contract that works,

38:45

right. Yeah, you keep people fed

38:47

and then you clean and then yeah,

38:51

um, where can our listeners find

38:53

all of this stuff? Like you guys on

38:55

Instagram? Obviously? The book

38:58

are on the on the

39:01

social media's we are the Holderness

39:03

family, um and kind

39:05

likes to say it's like wilderness but with a hoe.

39:08

So I see you guys, Oh

39:10

cute follow back, I love you, um.

39:13

And then this is Everybody

39:15

Fights book dot com and

39:18

yeah, um, I'm super excited

39:20

to deep dive right now into your Instagram because

39:23

the first thing I see is how I really feel. I'm like,

39:25

oh, I cannot wait. Um,

39:27

it's basically me because I'm an introvert

39:29

to quarantine. Actually wasn't terrible for me, and

39:31

I just want to spit in my pajamas all day long.

39:34

Um, it's basically how I really feel.

39:38

We're getting vaccinated. I'm like, I

39:41

have to go out in public. I'm

39:44

kind of cool just staying here, guys, because

39:46

you guys are in rally, right, Yeah, okay,

39:48

Well, whenever you guys come to Nashville, let us

39:50

know. We love Nashville. Isn't

39:53

that where the book people are. Yeah,

39:56

there's a lot of publishing in Nashville. Right,

39:58

So come and we're open. Come on,

40:02

We're gonna vaccinated soon. Hang on, almost, I

40:04

have to ask this question. So you were

40:06

in Vancouver. I'm putting some pieces

40:08

together. You were in Vancouver shooting

40:10

over the winter. That's usually

40:12

like Hallmark movies, right,

40:16

and it's even better. We so we

40:18

did like a bunch of parodies of Hallmark and Lifetime

40:20

Christmas movies in December. Yes,

40:23

and the reasons here's the reason why we so

40:26

like quarantine and COVID. Particularly

40:28

on my girls, they got really bummed out when Christmas

40:31

time came around, and so they binge

40:33

watched all these amazing

40:36

movies. Sorry, amazing Christmas. I love

40:38

them. Amazing plots. I

40:40

want to stories.

40:44

I don't want to be surprised. I

40:46

want to know exactly how it's going to end. Beautiful

40:48

girl meets handsome guy.

40:52

Yeah yeah, big city girl.

40:56

There's a festival in her home. There's a festival

40:58

where there's a tree lighting. Is what I wanted in

41:02

all twenty seven the

41:04

same plot twist me I don't

41:07

make don't make it a murder mystery. None

41:09

of that actually, so another

41:12

one of the ideas I threw out. I'm like, I want to write one

41:14

of those, like I don't have so

41:16

please please do. But

41:19

everything I'm right, I want to make it a musical obviously,

41:21

but everything I'm writing is like, there's

41:24

only one storyline. I can't even get

41:26

creative with it. I have plenty of

41:28

time, like Pen says, you can plenty

41:31

of time, lots of time, lots of free sime. Well,

41:33

we can't wait to watch it. Um, you

41:35

guys are so sweet. Seriously come visit. Thank

41:38

you for coming on wine Down And I'm

41:40

excited to read your guys book because everyone

41:42

does fight so especially yes Pen

41:45

Kim thank you guys so much. We appreciate your time.

41:47

We love to have you guys back on to thank

41:49

you, Thank you guys. You

42:03

know, as much as we've gotten validated

42:06

through our book and people responding to it and

42:08

just saying how much they appreciate it and can relate,

42:11

I love talking to people like Kim and Penn

42:13

and just hearing their stories being like, man,

42:16

we're not the only ones, you

42:19

know, yeah, and it just it

42:21

feels it feels good. I mean, even like when we talk

42:23

to people like Liza and having

42:26

those conversations and reading you know, other

42:28

books of other couples that we look

42:30

up to that it's like, oh,

42:32

they have crossroads and they have fights and they

42:34

have arguments, but yet they're still

42:37

in love and they're still happy to like,

42:41

I don't know, I like that. Do we have any emails? We

42:43

do have some emails. Interesting,

42:46

all right, This is from Alexandra. My

42:48

best friend's husband has become an alcoholic

42:50

and isn't asked to her more and more frequently.

42:52

They have a year and a half old son, and she has

42:54

settled down stopped drinking during pregnancy,

42:57

and he didn't. Unfortunately, his problem

42:59

seems to be getting worse. Oh, he's

43:01

not physically abusive. I fear from my friend and my

43:03

godson that he might become that. Their parents

43:05

all want her to leave him and get a divorce. She's

43:07

not ready to make that decision yet. As a friend, how do

43:09

I support her? And what advice can I give her? I

43:13

mean, I guess this kind of goes with what

43:15

we've been talking about, is there's

43:20

relationships that can

43:24

work, and then there's the relationships where someone

43:26

is just an active addiction and

43:29

that person is wanting and

43:33

that person is wanting to

43:37

not believe it. Maybe they're an active addiction

43:40

and fight through it, but it's

43:42

just that's so hard because you're

43:47

not going to get anywhere if like if if you were

43:49

like acting out in an active addiction,

43:52

it's like you can't,

43:54

I can't hold all those pieces together, Like

43:57

that'd be impossible. So

43:59

to support her or I would just say

44:01

that, I mean, she's

44:03

gonna want to try, but don't

44:07

isolate her, but also don't

44:10

continue to tell her that she'd be okay

44:13

alone. Yeah, I would

44:15

say, you know, in situations like this, no

44:18

one from the outside

44:20

is going to be able to make the decision for

44:23

your friend. So your

44:25

job as a friend and as godmother

44:28

to her son is

44:30

to just ask her questions so she

44:32

gets to the verdict herself, right,

44:35

So ask her why,

44:37

like, what are your reasons for staying? What

44:40

are your fears around it? What are your fears about

44:42

leaving? And have those conversations and allow

44:45

her to talk through it and have the dialogue

44:47

with you and for her to realize, Man, the

44:50

only reasons I am starting staying are X

44:52

and Y. But the

44:54

reasons you know I should

44:56

leave our you know, A through

44:59

Z. You know, there's a significant

45:01

more amount of reasons. So just allowing

45:03

them to figure it out themselves as you

45:06

kind of help navigate

45:08

them through these questions and ask the appropriate

45:11

questions. Is is my biggest advice

45:13

for what for what I would do? And if I had a friend in that

45:15

situation, Yeah, and if f thro P

45:17

is really bad, you know, but then you get

45:20

D through D and G and then oh through

45:22

you know X. You know, I

45:25

was just shooting from hip on that one, guys, but

45:28

you get what I'm saying, Alexandra. Just allow

45:30

her to figure it out for herself

45:32

as you guide her. I don't know that because C could really

45:34

be a bummer onto

45:38

the next email. This

45:40

is from Alyssa. I will be twenty seven and April.

45:42

My husband just turned thirty five. I

45:44

suffer from Pico's PCOS

45:47

and am lucky if I have two periods a year. Because

45:50

we knew this would be difficult for us, we started to try

45:52

to get pregnant about a month after we were

45:54

married. We got pregnant off the bat. Then

45:57

I'm miscarried around six weeks. Since then,

45:59

we have not been able to get pregnant. We

46:01

started going to a chain of doctors specialist

46:04

medications, and I'm afraid we're getting to the point

46:06

of I U I and I VF.

46:09

I feel like my husband isn't as emotional about

46:11

this as I am. I know he wants children.

46:13

He just says to trust in God and enjoy the time

46:15

we have together before children come into the mix.

46:18

I love that thought process, but I still get

46:20

sad with bad news. So I wanted to ask

46:22

Mike, what were your thoughts and feelings as you

46:24

and Jana were going through treatment. You

46:29

know, it's tough because as

46:33

a as a guy, you know, we

46:36

have our own feelings, but also you

46:40

know our feelings only

46:43

go to a certain depth. Because we don't have

46:45

as much of the um

46:50

feeling of responsibility as the female

46:53

does. So I don't

46:55

want to say that our feelings are the same as

46:57

y'all's, because they're not at all.

47:00

And so when Jana was

47:03

going through that stuff, all I could do, and

47:06

what I thought my job was was to just be

47:08

as positive as I could without

47:12

minimizing what

47:14

she was feeling or the situation. So

47:17

it's great for your for your husband to stay

47:20

positive, but he also

47:22

needs to allow the space for sadness

47:24

and for you to feel that because

47:27

if he's just like, don't worry, it's in God's hands

47:29

and now you don't worry, it's gonna happen. Let's just enjoy the time

47:31

together. If it's that's good. But if it's

47:33

that continuously, then

47:36

he's not really giving you the space

47:38

to have the feelings that you need to express.

47:41

And that's very important. Just from our

47:44

experience through this UM

47:46

and having done that a couple of times, it's

47:48

very important for

47:51

for the female to have that space and for the male

47:53

to find that happy dance

47:55

between optimistic and

47:58

empathetic. Yeah.

48:03

Um, well, good show, guys, good

48:05

show. Um,

48:07

We've got some good stuff. Coming in the books, coming

48:09

down the pipeline that we're really

48:11

pumped about. So you know, that's

48:14

what we want to do. Give you guys something entertaining to listen

48:16

to and to grow as a person. So I appreciate

48:18

you all listening. La