0:00

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are you know what we do need

1:00

help with though we need help with

1:02

Champions Wc I Champions These are the

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folks that pass out copies of the

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White Coat Investors Guide for students to

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their classmates and is your first year

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know? M D D O D D.

1:15

Whatever. But we're also if you

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will even send these out for

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this year. All you have to

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do is volunteer to pass them out. That's

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only a few boxes of books, your past

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mount your classmates. you get some swagger. That's

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the whole deal, but by getting this information

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change their lives. You. Can help

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them be financially literate, accompanies the discipline, and

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when you apply that to the high income

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that they're going to have, eventually he will

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make all the difference in the world. Hundreds

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of billions of dollars of value. The.

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You can provide to your classmates. by

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been a Wc I Gmp you can

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sign up y con better.com/champion. We.

1:59

are We need one for each school, but we do

2:01

need one. So please sign up. By

2:04

the way, you're running out of time. We need time to

2:06

print the books and get them out to you. So the

2:08

deadline on this is March 15th. You've only got a couple

2:10

more weeks. All right, we've

2:12

got a great guest today. And this

2:14

is kind of a, I don't know

2:17

if it's an unusual milestone, we've had so

2:19

many different milestones. We've certainly had somebody on

2:21

before they got public service loan forgiveness. But

2:24

I don't think we've ever had somebody who got

2:26

it in this particular way. It's a very interesting

2:28

story. And I think particularly

2:31

if you're going for public service loan

2:33

forgiveness, you will find this one absolutely

2:35

fascinating. Stick around afterward. We're going

2:37

to talk about probates, why you might want to try

2:39

to avoid it. All

2:41

right, our guest today on the Milestones Millionaire

2:43

podcast is Shana. Shana, welcome to the podcast.

2:46

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

2:48

Tell us what you do for a living and how far you are out of training. I

2:51

am an acute care surgeon and I've been out of

2:53

residency for about five years now. Five

2:56

years out. Okay, so this is all

2:58

adding up correctly. Five years in training

3:00

as a surgeon, five years

3:02

out, 10 years total. Tell us about the

3:04

milestone we're celebrating today with you. So

3:08

the big one is public

3:10

service loan forgiveness. So

3:12

student loans are paid off. And then

3:15

I've been thinking about signing up for milestones

3:17

for a while because we hit back

3:20

to broke and now close to half a million

3:22

in net worth also. So a couple other milestones

3:24

there. Awesome. Congratulations.

3:27

You've been knocking them down just like you're supposed to one at

3:29

a time here. You mentioned we who's

3:31

we, is there a partner or something? Yeah,

3:34

I have a husband. We've been married for

3:36

going on 12 years now. Okay,

3:39

so what halfway through med school or so

3:41

that sound about right? We got

3:43

married right after medical school. So training

3:45

was six years for residency with

3:48

a research year thrown in and almost six years

3:50

out from training. So very cool. What

3:52

does your husband do? He's a

3:54

mechanic. It's a mechanic. Okay. All

3:57

right. So let's start with public.

4:00

service loan forgiveness. How much did you get forgiven? In

4:03

total, it was about $245,000. That

4:07

was almost all medical school loans. I

4:09

had about, I don't know, probably $18,000 of

4:11

undergrad loans that I

4:14

graduated with that were in payment

4:16

basically from the time I finished undergrad,

4:19

with the exception of being in medical school. So

4:22

tell us about the journey. Some people, particularly

4:26

going for public service loan forgiveness, maybe not as

4:28

much nowadays as a few

4:30

years ago. It wasn't that

4:32

easy to get public service loan forgiveness.

4:34

Tell us what kind of problems you

4:36

had getting them. My story is very

4:39

unusual. I basically did

4:41

everything wrong every step of the way.

4:43

And then really left out with

4:46

the waiver that they released a couple years ago.

4:49

So I didn't actually ever sign

4:51

up for income driven repayment. During

4:54

training, we were in a very

4:56

high cost of living area. I didn't

4:58

feel like we could even make income based

5:00

repayment. And so I just sort

5:02

of put my loans into ferment that whole

5:04

time for six years, which is horrifying to

5:07

think of now. But I

5:09

just buried my head in the sand and figured

5:11

it would all work out one day. It turns

5:13

out you were right, of course. It

5:16

worked out, but I wouldn't necessarily

5:18

recommend it. But I would like to sort

5:20

of make sure that people know that sometimes

5:23

things do work out, even if you don't

5:25

make the right decision starting from day

5:27

one. I wish that the white

5:29

coat investor had been around from the time I was

5:31

in medical school. I think it started around the time

5:34

I finished medical school and started training, but I wasn't

5:36

aware of it. And certainly the

5:38

last five years I've done a lot of education

5:40

and would do things differently if I

5:42

were going back, but that's okay. So

5:45

I was about to refinance my loans when COVID

5:47

interest pause was announced.

5:50

In fact, I fielded a phone call from the

5:53

person I was working with to refinance maybe

5:56

a month into that 0% pause. And I

5:58

said, I'm

6:00

going to wait just a little bit and see what happens

6:03

rather than refinancing. And

6:05

then a little bit later they announced the

6:07

waiver. And as details about the waiver came

6:09

out, I thought, oh, maybe I

6:11

can just get my undergrad loans forgiven. I've paid on

6:13

those for 10 years. And then

6:15

more information came out that they would consolidate

6:18

everything together and credit the longest payment history.

6:20

And then with that, all of my loans

6:23

would get lumped together. And

6:25

so it was a pretty painless

6:27

process for me, because I was quite

6:29

close to that 10-year mark of payments

6:31

by the time I even applied. I

6:35

applied for consolidation in like November or December

6:37

of 2021,

6:39

submitted the PSLF application

6:41

in January. And then six or

6:44

nine months later or something like that, everything

6:47

was forgiven. Wow. So

6:50

this is pretty wild. I mean, how many years

6:52

did you actually make payments on

6:54

your medical school loans? You're talking about being in

6:56

deferment for five or six years and the student

6:58

loan holiday was like three and a half years.

7:00

How many years of payments did you actually make

7:02

on those student loans? So I

7:05

only ended up making payments from

7:07

about December of 2019 to

7:11

whenever the pause went into effect. So March of

7:13

2020. March. Yeah, like

7:15

four months. Well, like a year and

7:17

four months, but yet not a lot of time.

7:19

And at the time, we moved,

7:21

we bought a house when I moved

7:23

for my attending job, which is

7:26

also not the right move for everybody. It was the

7:28

right move for us, but it's not the right move

7:30

for everybody. And so

7:32

I sort of put my, I put

7:34

everything like on the lowest payment possible,

7:36

that like 30-year extended graduated repayment, which

7:39

would not for everybody worked out for in my

7:41

favor. So I really paid very

7:43

minimal on my loans at the end of the day.

7:46

I think when I went back and did the math, I

7:48

was paying my undergrad loans the whole time I

7:50

was in residency. And that's what enabled you to

7:52

get the rest forgiven was you had all these

7:54

payments that counted. Exactly. It's

7:57

an interesting loophole that really worked out well for you.

8:00

Right. So it worked out

8:02

great for me. It's worked out well

8:04

for other people that I've tried to

8:06

encourage to look into this. So I

8:09

have many friends who I've reached out to and said, hey,

8:11

like, see if this will work for you. And for most

8:13

people it has, which has been huge. And

8:16

I think, from what I understand,

8:18

they've extended the consolidation waiver. So

8:21

I think that there are still some people who

8:23

are listening to the podcast who might, you know,

8:26

still have federal loans, look

8:28

into whether they might still qualify for that. Yeah.

8:31

I think currently it's going through April is my

8:33

recollection. And by the time this runs at the

8:35

end of February, that still gives people, you know,

8:37

at least all of March to

8:39

still basically qualify in this way. Yeah.

8:42

And my understanding is as long as they apply to

8:44

consolidate before that deadline, everything

8:46

else sort of should apply. So that

8:49

might help some people. Did

8:51

you have, did you have any private loans or anything? I

8:54

had maybe like a 10 or $15,000

8:57

private loan that I paid minimum

8:59

payments on through residency and then paid off,

9:02

sort of prioritized paying that off earlier

9:04

rather than my federal loans, because that was at a

9:06

higher interest rate after I started working. And then

9:09

actually the medical school that I went to

9:11

did institutional loans. So those were

9:13

all subsidized at a lower interest rate than my

9:15

federal loans. And so those I knocked

9:18

out after the public service loan forgiveness,

9:21

they were on just sort of an auto payment. Very

9:24

cool. So do you, I mean, do

9:26

you remember back when you were in medical school,

9:28

how do you feel about, you know, all

9:30

this debt you're borrowing hundreds of thousands of dollars?

9:32

You remember how that felt? There's

9:35

probably no one that felt horrifying,

9:37

but really it didn't, it

9:39

just didn't feel real. It's monopoly money.

9:42

Yeah. It just felt like monopoly money. And

9:44

I wasn't, certainly was not like

9:46

extravagant as a medical student. You know, I

9:48

had friends who went on ski vacations

9:50

and like, I never did any of that. Like it

9:52

was a big deal that I went to a friend's

9:54

wedding one year and that was it. But

9:57

I certainly, you know, also probably could

9:59

have. done a little bit more to

10:01

be a more frugal looking back.

10:04

Turns out it worked out. It didn't really matter all

10:06

that much, but it was

10:08

definitely a head in the sand,

10:11

felt overwhelming. I

10:13

just had to kind of trust that one day I was

10:15

going to come out and make enough money that it would

10:17

all get paid off. That

10:19

was the case. If I hadn't been

10:22

eligible for loan forgiveness, I would have refinanced and

10:25

aggressively paid loans off and probably still

10:27

be paying them for another year or

10:29

two, but I was going to look

10:31

at five-year maximum time to do that.

10:34

Yeah. Well, you've been doing a lot of other

10:36

stuff. Let's turn now to some of these other

10:38

things you've accomplished. When you came out of medical

10:40

school, it sounds like your net worth was what?

10:42

Minus $250,000 or so. Sadly, it was more than

10:44

that. It was probably closer to 350 total between

10:53

other student loans. We

10:56

had loans on our cars. We

10:58

had, yes, probably closer to negative $350,000. You've gone from that to a

11:00

positive $500,000 over the last five years. Yeah.

11:07

I was doing bad math when I said 500.

11:09

It's a little bit more than that now. From

11:11

appreciation on our primary health and

11:14

then also, obviously, aggressively investing

11:16

over the last few years

11:19

also were actually even over the

11:21

half a million mark. It's quite

11:23

a swing from negative $350,000 to

11:26

over positive $500,000. Yeah. I mean,

11:28

that's almost a million-dollar swing in five years. How

11:30

did you guys manage to do that? Well,

11:33

we had a big shovel. A surgeon's

11:36

salaries are pretty reasonable. I

11:38

worked a lot extra

11:40

as well. We

11:43

did a pretty reasonable job,

11:45

I think, of automating savings, trying

11:49

to save 20% of our net

11:52

income, prioritizing paying off

11:54

of any debt, and

11:56

then also trying to enjoy life

11:58

as we went along. We've had

12:00

a rough few years

12:02

family-wise, both my and my husband's

12:05

father's had passed away. And

12:07

so we've taken some time to spend

12:09

time and money to spend time with

12:11

family to prioritize taking trips with family,

12:13

with memories, and doing some

12:16

things that, you know, if we were only focused

12:18

on wealth accumulation, we probably wouldn't, but both

12:20

of our dads died fairly young. And so we sort

12:23

of try to find that balance

12:25

of enjoying things while we have it

12:27

and while we can and while we have the people around

12:29

to enjoy it with and prepare

12:31

it for the future. When did

12:33

you and your spouse decide, we're going to take this

12:36

money stuff seriously, we're going to try to get rid

12:38

of our debts, we're going to try to, you know,

12:40

build wealth? When did you guys really kind of decide,

12:42

this is something we're going to do? It

12:45

was really after I came

12:47

out of training and we started what felt

12:49

like real life, we were the

12:51

real job. My spouse is well compensated,

12:54

but I think especially in residency, you're just

12:57

so focused on working

12:59

and learning. And, you know,

13:01

he was he was focused on working hard,

13:04

works very hard and long hours too.

13:07

And we were just kind of treading water. And

13:09

once we got some time to breathe and

13:11

to learn, I started

13:13

devouring all the financial content I

13:16

could. So, you know,

13:18

have read the White Coat Investor book, a lot

13:20

of the blog posts on

13:22

the Reddit community, listen

13:25

to every podcast, probably. Very

13:27

cool. Did you guys ever have a major disagreement about

13:29

your finances or have you kind of been on the

13:31

same page the whole time? The

13:35

only disagreement we had really was

13:37

sort of the very early on disagreement

13:39

where I was

13:41

told by my medical school financial

13:44

aid counselor, oh, really looked into this loan forgiveness

13:47

thing. It's a new program, but try

13:49

to make these payments. And, you know, my

13:51

husband was sort of like, I just don't think we can swing it

13:53

with the cost of living. Like we just don't have the money

13:56

to do it. You know, and

13:58

that was probably the only thing that. We

14:00

had a disagreement early on. Otherwise

14:03

we've been on the same page. We worked together. Yeah.

14:07

So what's next for you guys in your financial goals? I

14:09

mean, at the rate you're building wealth, you're going to be

14:11

millionaires in a year or two. So,

14:13

um, gosh, that's wild to think about. Uh,

14:15

millionaire doesn't mean as much today as it

14:18

did a couple years ago, which is notable.

14:21

We are currently building a

14:23

house that will have space for my

14:25

mother-in-law. So we're, we're sort of, that's the

14:27

biggest project right now. And

14:29

that's more of a personal than a financial

14:31

investment, but, um, but I hope, I think

14:34

there will be some sort

14:36

of positive financial implications there. And

14:39

I would like to get to a point

14:41

where I feel secure

14:43

that I have enough saved

14:46

that I can decide

14:48

how and when I want to work.

14:50

Um, I don't anticipate really cutting back

14:52

anytime soon, but I would like

14:54

to sort of have the power

14:57

to say, I don't want to do,

14:59

I don't want to do, so

15:02

that would be dollar

15:05

amount that's going to be. It's certainly more

15:08

than 1 million. It's probably closer to

15:10

five, which will take some time, but. Yeah.

15:13

Very cool. Well, you guys are off

15:15

to a great start. Congratulations on getting

15:17

public service loan forgiveness. Uh, some of

15:19

that obviously due to some of the

15:21

relatively recent rule changes in that, but

15:23

congratulations on that. It must feel good

15:26

to be rid of those student loans.

15:28

Life-changing. You guys also have a great start

15:30

on, on building wealth and really getting

15:32

off on the right foot. So congratulations to you

15:34

both. Thank you very much. We couldn't

15:36

have done it without your help. The W C

15:38

I the whole team's help, you know,

15:40

and sort of going back to the live like

15:43

a resident, make some reasonable decisions and remember that

15:45

you have a big shovel. Um, and so even

15:47

if you have, have a big hole, you can

15:49

dig out of it fairly easily. Awesome.

15:51

Good advice. Well, thanks so much for

15:53

coming on the podcast. Thank you very much.

15:57

All right. Glad you enjoyed that. interview,

16:00

it's interesting. We talk a

16:02

little bit about moral hazard, and this isn't

16:05

talking about people being moral and moral. This

16:08

is an economic term that when incentives

16:10

maybe aren't exactly what they should be,

16:12

people make different choices. That's the first

16:14

law of economics that people do what

16:16

they're incentivized to do. There's

16:20

a lot of people out there that feel like

16:22

they played by the rules. They did the

16:24

right thing. They refinanced their student loans in

16:27

February of 2020 before the pandemic-related

16:29

student loan holiday happened. Now, they're

16:31

bitter. They didn't get those $0

16:34

payments for

16:37

three and a half years. Well, it's the same way

16:39

for those who were really on top of their finances

16:42

with their student loans, maybe paid off their student loans in

16:44

two or three years. Then they're

16:46

not so happy when they see

16:48

somebody who maybe didn't manage their

16:50

student loans properly and ended up getting

16:52

more benefit than they did. It's

16:55

as I always say when we talk about these

16:57

rules that are laid out by Congress and by

16:59

the IRS, hate the game or don't hate the

17:01

play on. If this is the way

17:03

the laws are written, if medical students

17:05

are allowed to be on Medicaid, if they're allowed

17:08

to get food stamps, these

17:10

are for low-income people. Medical students have low

17:12

income. Just like PSLF

17:15

is not just for social workers,

17:17

it's not just for firemen and

17:19

cops. PSLF is for anybody that

17:21

works for a 501c3, whether you're making $800,000 a year as a

17:23

surgeon or whether you're making $24,000

17:28

a year as a social worker, it's all for you. If you are

17:30

going to work for a nonprofit, if

17:36

you're going to be an academic doc,

17:38

if you're going to work at the

17:40

VA and you have federal student loans,

17:42

you ought to become an expert in

17:44

all the rules regarding public service loan

17:46

forgiveness. Now remember this waiver thing, this

17:48

thing that allowed this doc to get

17:50

public service loan forgiveness, this thing expires

17:53

in like six weeks. So

17:56

if you are one of these people that

17:58

qualifies because you've been making payments undergrad

18:00

and you can consolidate your loans and these sorts

18:02

of things. You really need to get on it

18:04

this month because it may not be extended again.

18:06

It's been extended a few times, but

18:08

it may go away, particularly if

18:11

the administration changes. That wouldn't surprise me at all

18:15

this fall that this sort of expanded

18:18

public service loan forgiveness benefit

18:20

would go away. All right, I promised

18:22

you at the top of the hour we were going to talk

18:24

about probate. Probate is

18:27

the legal process for reviewing the

18:29

assets of a deceased person

18:32

and determining who the inheritors

18:34

are. It generally focuses

18:36

on a will. If there's a will, probate

18:39

is all about making sure that

18:41

the assets are passed out in

18:43

accordance with the will. States

18:45

also have laws

18:48

of what's going to happen if you don't have a

18:50

will. This happens

18:53

in most states like you would expect. It

18:55

all goes to your spouse, if there is

18:57

no spouse, it goes to your kids, and

18:59

then so on and so forth to other

19:01

family members. But probate

19:03

is one of those processes that a lot

19:06

of people would rather avoid. It

19:08

varies by state, but in some states can be

19:10

pretty expensive. It's

19:13

a public process, so other people can find out

19:15

what you own, what you were worth when you

19:17

died. It can be time consuming.

19:19

It might take as much as a year for

19:22

the heirs to really get what's coming to

19:24

them. For those reasons, a lot of people

19:26

do what they can to avoid probate for

19:29

part or all of their estate. It's

19:31

interesting though, in some states it's not as big of a

19:33

deal. When my parents went in to do their estate planning,

19:36

they were basically told, no, this isn't worse

19:38

trying to avoid probate. Probate is not too

19:40

bad in Alaska. We think

19:42

you ought to just go through probate, just get a will and

19:44

go through probate. It's no big deal. I

19:47

had some questions about that because I'm the executor.

19:50

But yeah, that was the way it worked

19:52

out in Alaska, but that's not the case

19:54

in all states. So

19:56

some ways in which you can avoid probate.

19:59

Well, One thing is you can give

20:01

stuff away before you die. Particularly

20:03

if you're nowhere near the

20:05

estate tax exemption, you can give things away.

20:07

It's very effective, anything you give away before

20:09

you die doesn't go through probate. There

20:12

is a downside in doing that. You lose the

20:14

step-up and basis at death. It's sometimes better for

20:16

you to die and your heirs to

20:18

get it with that step-up and basis than for you to

20:20

give it to them before they die. This is a big

20:22

mistake a lot of people make. They put their house in

20:24

their kid's name, or

20:27

they have both names on it, they

20:29

think they're gonna facilitate things. Well, what

20:31

happens is that step-up and basis

20:33

at death goes away, that's not so

20:35

good. All right, here's another way

20:37

you can avoid it. If you're just not wealthy, you

20:40

don't end up having to go through probate. In

20:42

my home state of Utah, the limit is $100,000, not

20:45

including vehicles registered in the state. If your net worth

20:47

is less than that, you don't go through

20:49

probate. And so that probably isn't

20:51

gonna work for most white coat investors, I hope

20:53

it's not, but that is one option. Here's

20:56

another option, you can have joint ownership, right?

20:59

In community property states. There's

21:02

a few of those, most of them

21:04

in the Southwest, but also Louisiana and

21:06

Wisconsin. Anything that's acquired

21:08

during marriage is considered to be owned equally

21:10

by both spouses, 50-50. And both

21:12

spouses may pass on their share of property, their

21:14

chosen heirs, similar to tenancy

21:17

and common title. You

21:19

can have community property with rights of

21:21

survivorship. You can have joint tenancy with rights

21:23

of survivorship, right? So this stuff isn't going

21:25

through probate because there's a right of survivorship.

21:27

It goes to the person who has that

21:30

right of survivorship. Tendency

21:32

by the entirety, you've probably heard

21:34

of this, is usually something used from an

21:36

asset protection standpoint. No,

21:39

but it also obviously keeps it out of probate

21:41

if it's going to that married couple. Okay,

21:44

so basically, leaving something to your

21:46

spouse keeps it out of probate. Obviously,

21:49

it's a much bigger deal when the second spouse dies,

21:52

but that works fine for keeping things out

21:54

of probate. For a lot

21:56

of things, you just need to designate beneficiaries.

21:58

Your retirement accounts, annuities,

22:01

life insurance policies, designated beneficiary, and

22:03

that passes to them outside of

22:05

probate. Doesn't have to go through probate. Even

22:08

for taxable accounts, brokerage accounts, and bank accounts,

22:10

a lot of times you can make, you

22:13

can title them with a payable

22:15

on death designation. So it

22:17

just automatically goes to that person rather than

22:19

having to go through probate. You

22:21

know, sometimes it's called a transfer on death

22:24

account. Another commonly

22:26

used technique is a revocable

22:28

trust. A revocable trust,

22:30

you can put stuff in, you can take it

22:33

out, no problem, you can use it however you

22:35

like. You know, taxes

22:37

on that asset are payable on your

22:39

personal tax return, but the

22:41

point of a revocable trust is it

22:43

helps avoid probate. So anything that's in

22:45

the trust is distributed in accordance with

22:47

the instructions in the trust, rather

22:49

than going through probate. So it's a good way

22:52

you can get some privacy, maybe reduce costs, and

22:55

distribute it probably most importantly faster

22:58

after the time of death. Obviously

23:00

any other trust, an irrevocable

23:02

trust, is just like

23:05

giving money away, right? It's no longer in yours,

23:07

it's no longer in your estate, it doesn't go

23:09

through probate, it's distributed in accordance with the rules

23:11

of the trust. Now you

23:14

can get into some, you know, more big

23:16

ticket items to avoid probate, a

23:18

little bit more complexity in your financial

23:20

life, but you can use a family

23:22

limited partnership or a family limited liability

23:24

company. These sorts of structures also

23:27

help to avoid probate. A lot of times

23:29

they can facilitate estate planning, they may be

23:31

able to help with estate taxes, they

23:34

have some asset protection benefits as well, but those

23:36

are kind of all the ways to

23:38

avoid probate. You

23:40

know, when you think about estate planning, there's

23:42

really three reasons to do it. One is

23:44

to make sure your stuff goes to who you

23:47

want it to go to, make sure your,

23:49

you know, minor children are taken care of,

23:51

you know, you designate somebody to take care of them

23:53

as well as somebody to manage the assets. The

23:56

second thing is to, of course, avoid

23:58

probate. particularly if it's expensive

24:01

or odorous or you really want that privacy.

24:04

And lastly, of course, is to avoid

24:06

taxes, estate taxes, but also potentially income

24:08

taxes. Those are the purposes of estate

24:10

planning and avoiding probates

24:12

is often a motivation for people

24:15

to do some estate planning.

24:18

All right, getting quality disability and life insurance

24:20

should be the first financial chore for a

24:22

doctor to complete. Most docs

24:25

don't have the ideal policy for their gender, specialty,

24:27

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seven doctors gets disabled at some point during their

24:31

career. Because these policies can only

24:33

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24:35

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24:40

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24:44

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24:46

outs, they can help you get the policy

24:48

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want to have your current policies evaluated to see if

24:53

you need to make a change, or if you

24:55

know you need a policy, go

24:57

to whitecoatinvestor.com/insurance and feel the peace

24:59

of mind that comes with knowing

25:01

you have the optimal policy in

25:03

place. All right, this has

25:05

been the Milestones to Millionaire podcast. If you'd like to apply

25:07

to come on this, you can do

25:10

so, whitecoatinvestor.com/milestone. We'd love to have you.

25:12

We want to celebrate your milestones with

25:14

you and use them to inspire others

25:16

to do the same. Till the

25:18

next time, keep your head up, shoulders back. You've

25:20

got this. We'll see you next time on the

25:22

Milestones to Millionaire podcast. The

25:25

hosts of the White Coat Investor are

25:27

not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors.

25:30

This podcast is for your entertainment and

25:32

information only. It should not

25:34

be considered professional or personalized financial advice.

25:37

You should consult the appropriate professional for

25:39

specific advice relating to your situation.