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Help others. Learn from them. It's just

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great to be part of one big

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community helping each other. All

1:50

right. I think the first thing we're going to do is

1:52

we're going to bring on one of

1:54

our advisors, and let's talk with him

1:56

about some of your questions and

1:59

use that. to springboard

2:01

into some of the other questions that you

2:03

guys have sent in to us on the

2:05

SpeakPipe. By the way, we love getting questions

2:08

on the SpeakPipe. You can leave those at

2:10

whitecodeinvestor.com slash SpeakPipe.

2:13

And we'll get to as many of those

2:15

as we can on the podcast. All

2:18

right, I'm here with Wesley Batto, who

2:21

is one of our sponsors. One of the

2:23

sponsors of the White Coat Investor, he's one

2:25

of our approved list of financial advisors. Welcome

2:27

to the White Coat Investor podcast, Wesley. Thank

2:30

you for having me, it's good to be here. I

2:32

don't think we've had you on here before, so let's

2:34

introduce you to the audience a little bit. Why don't

2:36

you explain to us all why you decided to become

2:38

a financial advisor in the first place? Great,

2:41

yeah, so I had the good

2:43

fortune of, my dad was a financial planner for 35

2:45

plus years, but

2:48

I didn't directly know that I wanted to do this

2:50

early on. He had the

2:52

opportunity, obviously, to work with many successful

2:54

people. So as a kid,

2:56

he came home when he talked to me about different people he

2:58

met with. That led to

3:00

my sister, my older sister, for example, becoming

3:02

a pediatrician, because that was

3:05

within her interests. For me, I like

3:07

numbers, and he got me

3:09

interested in the language of

3:11

business, or accounting, of course.

3:14

And so he talks to me about how

3:16

a lot of the successful people in business

3:19

started with the CPA. And

3:21

so when I was a junior in high school, I can remember

3:23

I wrote a paper that said, when

3:26

I finally get a job, I wanna be a CPA,

3:28

work at a big four public accounting firm. And that's exactly

3:30

what I did. I did that for a few years. And

3:33

it was a good experience, but it wasn't long

3:35

after starting there that it was pretty clear to

3:37

me, this is not where I want to

3:39

spend my entire career. But even still,

3:41

I learned a lot from that experience. It

3:44

was good. But then I wanted to try something

3:46

else, so I did some finance and accounting for

3:48

small businesses. And it was at that time my

3:51

dad said, hey, Wes, why don't you try to

3:53

spend some time with me and

3:55

some of my clients, see if you can add some value. So

3:57

that's when I got my first taste. It wasn't long after that that

3:59

I. said, this is what I want to do.

4:02

So for example, I mean, I got to

4:04

work with some some clients of my dad's

4:06

that that have known me my entire life.

4:08

But the funniest example of that is

4:11

the OB QIN, who was in the room when

4:13

I was delivered is a client. And now I

4:15

work with his I still work with him and

4:17

his wife, I work with his kids and his

4:19

grandkids setting up 529, anything like that. So it's

4:21

just an example of the types of people that

4:23

we work with and the deep relationships that

4:26

we have with our clients. Now your

4:28

firm is Hillcrest financial group. More information

4:30

about that can be found at hillcrest

4:32

fg.com. Obviously, we have you

4:34

listed on the recommended page for financial

4:37

advisors, a white coat investor.com. Tell us

4:39

what's unique about your firm. Yeah,

4:42

so one of the things that's unique

4:44

about us is that, as

4:46

far as recommendations, one of the things I

4:48

like when I listen to your podcast, what

4:50

I hear you doing is trying to equip

4:53

people with information so that they can make

4:55

the decisions for themselves. Obviously, everyone listening to

4:57

this podcast is very educated, very smart, able

4:59

to make a lot of these decisions for

5:01

themselves, but they not might not fully understand

5:03

the implications of one decision versus

5:05

another. So what we try to

5:07

do is equip our clients with information. And then

5:10

they can make it from there. Obviously, every once

5:12

in a while you have someone that says, Okay,

5:15

Wes, it sounds like you're just laying out options for me. I want

5:17

you to tell me what to do. And that's

5:19

a little more rare. But for the most

5:21

part, that's enough for them is

5:23

giving them the information. Hopefully,

5:25

people get this from listening.

5:28

I'm not very salesy, I'm more analytical

5:30

type. And that comes from the CPA

5:32

background. And so I think that that's

5:34

a big thing that says this part. Now you

5:36

have that CPA background, but do you

5:38

do tax services? Do you do tax

5:40

preparation or tax advising tax strategizing? Good

5:43

question. I don't. Right? Yeah, so

5:45

I do not do tax prep. I always tell

5:47

clients I pay someone else to do my taxes,

5:49

and I recommend you do the same. But

5:51

with that being said, one of the things that

5:53

I do well is collaborate with

5:55

clients tax preparers. A lot

5:58

of times, if you're talking with a tax

6:00

preparer, sometimes they might

6:03

not be thinking proactively. And

6:06

instead, I feel like that's one of our strengths

6:08

is that we're thinking proactively as far as tax

6:10

planning goes. And then I can kind

6:12

of translate some of the CPA jargon

6:14

to accomplish what people are trying to

6:17

do in layman's terms. One

6:20

of the hardest things I think for most

6:22

financial advisors starting up a firm is deciding

6:24

how they're going to charge for their services.

6:26

So how do you charge for your services

6:28

and why? Yeah, so there's

6:30

a couple of different options. One is many

6:32

of the white coat investors that contact us,

6:34

it starts with a financial plan. And

6:37

so that's a flat fee financial plan starts at right

6:39

now it's $3,000. And

6:42

what that includes is pay

6:44

for everything in your financial life,

6:47

different people that is obviously unique, it touches a

6:49

lot of different things in their financial life. And

6:51

what I always say is it's not just putting

6:54

together the plan and then, okay, here

6:56

you go, good luck implementing this yourself.

6:59

But we actually included in that

7:01

flat fee is multiple meetings and

7:03

so we will work with you

7:05

to actually implement that. And

7:07

oftentimes when I go through that part of it,

7:10

it's that aspect of it where people's eyes

7:13

get bigger. Oh, okay, yeah, that's exactly what I

7:15

want because many of the people that contact us

7:17

are busy doing their daily thing and

7:20

not doing this full time. And so they

7:22

enjoy that aspect of it. So the financial

7:24

plan flat fee, and then as we go

7:26

through that, some people end up at the

7:28

end saying, all right, Wes, that's great, I

7:31

don't necessarily want to implement all of this

7:33

myself, I want your help. And so we

7:35

can manage the assets and we do the

7:37

AUM model when that comes into

7:39

play. And I always say, sometimes people

7:41

are trying to make that decision at the front end,

7:44

do I really wanna do it myself or do I

7:46

wanna outsource that aspect of it? I just say, you

7:48

don't have to decide now. One of the

7:50

things I like about something that you've

7:52

said is that many people at some point

7:55

should at least use a financial advisor to

7:57

check in. I think the number that you

7:59

said was... like 80% or

8:01

somewhere along those lines, I think that's

8:04

good enough. So if they

8:06

wanna just take that one, take the plan and

8:08

then go and implement it themselves, that's great. And

8:10

then you can check in from time to time.

8:13

More than anything, what I wanna do

8:16

is provide good objective advice at a

8:18

fair price, like you say often.

8:21

And so we can even work in between

8:23

there as well. We can

8:25

create something that works for people. At the

8:27

end of the day, I wanna get paid

8:29

for my time at a fair price.

8:32

And so those are the different ways that we do that.

8:35

Awesome. Let's, if you don't

8:37

mind hanging around a little bit, let's answer

8:39

a couple of reader or listener questions here.

8:41

Our first one comes from Tomi. And

8:43

there's a question about pensions and portfolios. Let's take

8:45

a listen. Hey Jim, this

8:48

is Tomi from Seattle. I give lectures to our

8:50

trainees at my institution about financial literacy and frequently

8:52

refer them to your resources. So I just wanna

8:54

thank you for everything that you do. My

8:57

question is about how we should view pensions

8:59

in our retirement portfolio. I know

9:01

you have previously said that a pension should

9:03

be viewed as fixed income. However, some argue

9:05

that this is a substitute for bonds in

9:07

their portfolio, which allows them to invest the

9:09

rest of their portfolio in stocks. Can you

9:11

talk about the pros and the cons of

9:13

this approach? All right,

9:15

Wes, how would you reply to this? I mean,

9:18

how do you look at a pension? Should it

9:20

be folded into the asset allocation? Should it be

9:22

kept out of the asset allocation? How do you

9:24

consider pensions? And I suppose other

9:26

income streams, such as social security, you

9:29

could talk about as well. Right,

9:31

yeah, so probably like many

9:33

of your listeners, when clients talk

9:36

to me about social security and the assumptions that

9:38

we make around social security, and

9:40

the same would go for pensions, the level

9:42

of confidence is not very high, that social

9:44

security is gonna look the same way that

9:46

it does now for someone like me in

9:48

their 30s. And so as

9:51

far as pensions, it's interesting

9:53

that this person is even able to participate

9:55

in a pension, that that's cool, but

9:58

it's very, very common. I would

10:00

say it's highly likely that by the time this person

10:03

retires, the pension is going to look different. I

10:05

wouldn't be surprised if that pension ends up getting

10:07

frozen and there's

10:09

less accruals for that person in

10:11

the future. Although

10:14

they are right now, this person is probably, Tomi

10:16

is getting a projection for what that's going to

10:18

look like in retirement. Very likely

10:20

it's not going to be that exact amount. It's

10:23

going to be a ... I mean, I do have

10:25

some clients that have a significant amount of pension income.

10:27

Many of them, it's a very, very modest amount.

10:30

I mean, hundreds of dollars a month. It's

10:32

because they participated and then that pension plan

10:35

got frozen. With that being

10:37

said, I would do the allocation,

10:40

not thinking too much about that because it may not

10:42

be a big portion. Now, as you get closer to

10:44

retirement, or even if you're in retirement, Tomi

10:47

didn't give that information, but if you're in retirement,

10:49

of course, you're going to factor that in. If

10:51

you get a $10,000 a

10:53

month pension, yeah, I would factor

10:55

that in through overall allocation. But

10:57

when you're still working, if you've

10:59

got many years left, I

11:01

wouldn't bank on that too hard. What do you think

11:03

about that, Jim? A

11:06

big question people seem to have is,

11:08

should this replace bonds in my portfolio?

11:10

I've always said no. I've

11:12

always said, look at your portfolio separately.

11:14

Then when it comes time to calculate

11:16

how much you need for retirement, take

11:19

whatever your spending is, subtract out what

11:21

you expect from social security, subtract out

11:23

what you expect from guaranteed sources of

11:25

income, like a pension or

11:28

a single premium immediate annuity, those

11:31

sorts of guaranteed sources of income, subtract that

11:33

out from what you need the portfolio to

11:35

provide. But don't try to put a dollar

11:37

value on your social security. Don't try to

11:39

put a dollar value on your pension and

11:41

somehow fold that into your asset allocation when

11:43

you're deciding 50% stocks and 20% bonds or

11:45

whatever, rather than just leave it out and

11:51

use it to reduce the amount of money you

11:53

need from your portfolio. I think

11:56

that's the academically proper way to look

11:58

at it, but there's obviously as

12:00

you mentioned, lots of concerns about pensions these

12:02

days and very few

12:04

people, I think even fewer, even

12:07

lower percentage of doctors are

12:09

looking at pensions. They're probably not going to have any.

12:12

The only pension they're going to have is the one

12:14

they provide themselves. Right. Yep.

12:16

That's exactly what I've seen. All

12:18

right. I think we've beat

12:21

that question to death, but

12:24

that's a good way to view pensions. Congratulations.

12:26

If you do have one, they are useful.

12:29

They're not guaranteed completely though, right?

12:32

Or really what you have, they're guaranteed, but you got

12:34

to look at who's providing the guarantee. Just

12:36

like with a SPEA, yeah, it's guaranteed by

12:39

the insurance company. If something happens in the

12:41

insurance company, maybe not so guaranteed. That's

12:43

right. And real quick, Jim, in my area,

12:45

we have many GE employees.

12:48

There was a time when some GE

12:50

retirees were asking a lot of questions

12:52

about how guaranteed is this really, because

12:55

they were worried about insolvency at the

12:57

company. All right. Let's take

12:59

a question from Michael. He's got a question about Roth

13:01

IRAs. Hi, Dr. Dolly and

13:03

the White Coat Investor team. This is Mike in

13:05

Florida. And I have a two-part question about Roth

13:08

IRAs and backdoor Roths. My wife and I max

13:10

out our available retirement accounts every year, but now

13:12

work for a new employer that potentially opens up

13:14

some of our options. I now have a

13:17

403B and 457 that I max out,

13:19

but my employer also allows for after-tax

13:21

contributions to the 403B, which

13:23

can then be automatically converted to Roth, which

13:25

Fidelity actually does for me. This

13:28

allows me to reach my maximum defined contribution of $69,000

13:30

for 2024. My

13:33

Fidelity advisor tells me that I can also

13:35

still use an additional backdoor Roth to the

13:37

usual pathway of placing money in a traditional

13:39

IRA and then converting it to a Roth

13:42

IRA. I'm fuzzy on whether or not I

13:44

can actually do this, however. The

13:46

second part of the question pertains to my wife, who works for

13:48

the same employer but who makes about $100,000. It's not a problem

13:50

for her to max

13:52

out the 403B and 457, but the

13:54

remaining money after-tax won't quite allow us to

13:57

put in that additional $46,000 into the to

14:00

her accounts, I was thinking we could just have

14:02

her not withhold any taxes from her paycheck up

14:04

front, which would allow her to be able to

14:06

have enough income to get to that maximum $46,000.

14:09

Since we file taxes as married filing

14:11

jointly, I could just contribute extra tax

14:13

up front out of my paycheck to

14:15

make sure we've all within the safe

14:17

harbor. We think of our separate

14:19

incomes as just one big pool of money.

14:21

So does this strategy make sense? Are there

14:24

any rules I'm breaking here? The

14:26

first question about an additional backdoor Roth would

14:28

apply to her as well. All

14:30

right, Wes, I think the first question is not too hard.

14:32

Why don't we knock that one out of the way first?

14:36

I agree. So the quick answer is

14:38

yes, you can do both mega backdoor

14:40

Roth and the backdoor Roth and the

14:42

mega backdoor Roth being the contributing after

14:45

tax dollars to the 403B

14:47

and then converting that after tax piece

14:49

to Roth within the 403B.

14:51

Yes, you can do that in the backdoor Roth. Yeah,

14:54

absolutely. Absolutely. Contribution limits, your

14:56

401K or 403B limits in

14:58

your IRA limits completely separate.

15:01

Right. And it's worth mentioning how

15:03

cool that is that they actually have

15:05

that it's very unusual for particularly a

15:07

hospital to allow after tax and then

15:09

doing that within the plan. It's pretty

15:11

rare to see mega backdoor Roth opportunities

15:13

in general, but especially when they make

15:15

it that easy for you. The one

15:17

caveat too that I would make sure

15:20

to mention, Jim, I'm interested

15:22

in your experience in talking with people

15:24

that do backdoor Roth IRAs. I

15:26

would say people are maybe batting maybe

15:29

like 500 as far as doing

15:31

it correctly. It's quite often

15:33

now. Now it's a

15:35

somewhat of a biased or somewhat

15:38

selective as far as who reaches

15:40

out to me because obviously they may be needing some

15:42

help, but I just see a lot of

15:44

people messing that up. So when he's talking about doing a

15:46

backdoor Roth, I would be asking the

15:49

questions, do you have any pre-tax IRAs and making

15:51

sure that 403B rollover is

15:53

actually staying within the 403B, not going

15:55

to the pre-tax portion, going to an

15:57

IRA and those sorts of things. What's

16:00

your experience in talking to people about doing it on their

16:02

own and are they able to do it correctly? Well,

16:05

I think everybody who's been in the white coat

16:07

investor community for a while has seen this problem

16:09

Yeah I mean there are 3000

16:12

plus comments on my back door Roth IRA Tutorial

16:14

on the blog and most of those are people

16:16

who have screwed this up in one way or

16:18

another I keep thinking

16:20

that you know, I've seen all

16:22

the ways people can screw up this process and yet every

16:24

year somebody comes up with A new one, you know So

16:27

apparently it's not that hard to screw up. There's lots

16:30

of people that have usually they do it one or

16:32

two years and And then they've kind of

16:34

got it down and they don't screw it up anymore

16:36

But but you're right You know a lot of

16:38

people just reach out to me by email or

16:40

blog comment or whatever Wanting me to confirm that

16:42

they've done it right because they see all these

16:44

other people that did not do it, right?

16:47

I don't see that it's particularly complicated if you

16:49

just follow the tutorial It's very easy to do

16:51

but there's a lot of people that mess it

16:53

up for sure 500 I

16:55

don't even know if it's that high be honest with you have

16:57

people doing it correctly the first time by themselves Yeah,

17:00

I wouldn't disagree and I would give

17:03

a plug for your tutorial. I think it's great I

17:05

meant the many articles that are on there. I know

17:08

that you recycle those a lot and it's

17:10

because it's so relevant But

17:12

those it really does a good job of walking through so

17:14

you're right It's not a really complicated but still easy to mess up

17:16

somehow Yeah Now

17:19

Mike's second question is a lot more interesting to me

17:21

this idea of basically just setting

17:24

The withholdings for his wife's paycheck to Zippo

17:26

or as low as they can get it

17:29

in order to be able to make a

17:31

larger After tax contribution into her

17:33

403 B, which would then become obviously a

17:35

mega backdoor rock Contribution.

17:38

What do you think about that strategy? Yeah,

17:40

well, so first I'll give the caveat

17:42

that of course you ought to talk

17:45

to your tax professional about this With

17:48

that being said, I think it's a good

17:50

idea I mean it sounds like so you

17:52

do have a couple options as well You

17:54

could make estimated payments to cover

17:56

the the tax withholding there. You don't have

17:58

to withhold any tax If

18:01

you make those estimated payments, also

18:03

the penalties associated penalties interest, I

18:05

mean it's good to avoid those, but it's

18:07

back, you know, a couple years ago interest

18:10

rates so low. The

18:12

interest was actually rather negligible.

18:15

And so it's worth educating yourself

18:17

on what the impact of that would be. Just talk

18:20

with your tax repair as far as how much you

18:22

should do to get within that safe harbor. But

18:25

I think it's a very good idea to be able to maximize that and make

18:27

it back to a rock. Now,

18:29

obviously we know about the safe harbor rules. We know

18:31

in April you're going to have to settle up with

18:33

the IRS. If you had too little paid or too

18:35

much, you're going to have to settle up with the

18:37

IRS. If you're not in the safe

18:39

harbor, you're going to have to pay some interest. But

18:42

the question is, I think the

18:44

legality of deliberately, you

18:47

know, reducing your withholdings at one employer, even though

18:49

you're paying your taxes, even though you're staying within

18:51

the safe harbor, is illegal

18:54

to do this, to manipulate your withholdings

18:56

in that way. And

18:58

I think that's a good point with the federal

19:00

income taxes. It's not going to be a

19:02

problem with HR. Does the federal income tax, the

19:05

federal income tax, the federal income tax, the federal income

19:07

tax will be the one that's going to be breaking

19:09

any rules. I

19:11

don't see anything wrong with it. Again, I mean, there

19:13

are some taxes that you will have to pay. I

19:15

assume here, he's talking obviously just about the federal income

19:17

taxes, but there's, you know, the payroll taxes that

19:20

will be coming out. If you're literally

19:22

withholding nothing, trying to make your entire

19:24

gross paycheck go to the floor, that's

19:26

not going to work. You're going to

19:28

have to factor in payroll taxes at

19:30

a minimum. Yeah, I

19:32

don't think there's any way of getting out of those, but it's

19:35

pretty amazing how flexible you can be in

19:37

some of these things. If you really push

19:40

HR and you really, you know, think

19:42

through the process, it's pretty impressive how

19:44

often you can get, you

19:46

know, your withholdings down for one person, you just

19:48

withhold more for the other person. And

19:51

make quarterly estimated payments. So a lot of flexibility there

19:53

to be able to max out those accounts. Right.

19:56

One other comment that I would like to make on this, and I'm

19:58

interested to get your thoughts. is sometimes it's

20:01

interesting when I'm talking with maybe a

20:03

newer attending who has these opportunities such

20:05

as Mega Back to our Roth, they're

20:08

looking at all the different retirement plan

20:10

opportunities. And sometimes,

20:13

even though those things are available, depending on

20:15

what the balance sheet looks like, depending

20:18

on cash flow needs,

20:20

I would say maybe let's wait a

20:22

year or two to fully max out

20:24

all that because if you're adding up

20:27

all of the different deferrals, after tax, the

20:29

Mega Back to our the back door, you're

20:31

looking at over 100,000 easily of

20:35

contributions. And if if you're making

20:37

a good salary, but tying up

20:39

all your money in retirement, it ends up

20:41

where you actually don't have very much flexibility.

20:43

And that's where someone might have to swipe

20:46

the credit card and pay

20:48

interest. So oftentimes,

20:50

I preach a flexibility

20:52

and having balance. So

20:54

even though that's available to you, I would just be aware of that.

20:57

Yeah, you know, new attendings,

20:59

they have so many good uses for their

21:01

money and limited amount of money, you know,

21:03

they probably still got credit card debt, they're

21:06

paying off, they may have a car loan,

21:08

you know, their student loans are gonna have

21:10

to start making payments on soon. They probably

21:13

don't have a real emergency fund, they may be saving

21:15

up a down payment for a house, and then they've

21:17

got all these accounts they want to max out. And

21:19

you just can't do it all. I mean, you're not

21:21

going to put, you know, $150,000 toward retirement accounts when

21:24

you're making 275, and you're when you're

21:26

out of residency, it's just not going to happen. You

21:28

got other uses for your money. And

21:31

that's why I get so mad when I

21:33

see people sold these, you know, high premium

21:35

whole and universal life programs, while they're still

21:38

paying off, you know, student

21:40

loans, and all of a sudden, $40,000 a year

21:42

is having to go to this whole life insurance

21:44

policy. You know, they just have better uses for

21:46

their money. And sometimes they have better uses than

21:49

a mega backdoor rock. That said,

21:51

I Hate to see people investing in a

21:53

taxable account when they still have tax protection

21:55

space available to them. So Flexibility is good,

21:58

but you also get off. A

22:00

lot of benefit from our from attacks

22:02

Protected Retirement account. You know not only

22:04

the tax benefits but he estate planning

22:06

teachers in the asset protection benefits. I

22:08

see people passing that up too much

22:10

just to get more flexibility. The classic

22:12

cases: people wanna retire before age fifty

22:14

five or age fifty nine and a

22:16

half mister wondering: well should I save

22:18

a bunch of money outside of retirement

22:20

accounts And I think that's usually a

22:22

mistake because it's relatively easy to get

22:24

into those retirement accounts In the case

22:26

of early retirement. Yeah, the

22:29

I when disagree. That certainly. Quite

22:31

often I'm just so much in the

22:33

habit of talking about return recounts being

22:35

for the future, not trying to open

22:37

up the Us the ideal. I

22:39

feel lucky you can open a pandora's box

22:41

has seen before where if you say our

22:43

ideal minutes after retirement account for this you

22:45

know it age forty well it's It's easy

22:47

to just see that as a revolving all.

22:49

I can just use that as another bank

22:51

accounts and four sets the wrong way to

22:53

let and are. You wouldn't think of it

22:56

that way but that can be a road

22:58

that you go down. But I agree with

23:00

you to the thing you can use all

23:02

those retirement accounts I always say the iris

23:04

is you tax benefits they're also it's important

23:06

to understand with the with the strings are

23:08

that are attached to that. To those benefits

23:10

that namely that the biggest one being

23:12

such a tough that known as. You.

23:15

Know after tax you get some. Hulu. More

23:17

flexibility there. But. Yes,

23:19

I agree. You. Have. To Move.

23:22

Or I West will. thanks for being on the

23:24

podcast with this today. If you want to talk

23:27

to Westmore, you can reach him at Hillcrest F

23:29

T.com that's his financial advisory firm and thanks so

23:31

much for sponsoring the White Coat Investor Podcast. Thanks

23:33

for him! He enjoyed it. All.

23:36

Rights and L, we've let Wesley go,

23:39

let's do a few of these are

23:41

a few these additional questions that you

23:43

guys have sent him for. hello

23:45

why columbus a podcast i am

23:47

a third year medical student said

23:50

graduate and twenty five my question

23:52

is about filing taxes in regards

23:54

to save clan i'm currently married

23:56

my wife makes in com and

23:58

we have been told from multiple

24:00

advisors to file separately for the sake

24:03

of the save plan that will be

24:05

based off my income of zero dollars

24:07

as a student and then

24:09

once payment start it'll be zero dollars payment.

24:12

That said, if my wife and I are more

24:14

debt averse and want to get rid of the

24:16

debt, would it be better to just file jointly,

24:19

reap the tax benefits that she won't

24:21

have to necessarily pay, get potentially

24:23

a tax return, a positive tax return,

24:25

and then also get the educational credit

24:27

as well? Please give me back

24:30

your thoughts. Thanks.

24:32

Okay, great question. Starting

24:34

a few years ago we started getting questions

24:36

like this more and more frequently. Sometimes

24:39

a blog comment, sometimes an email, sometimes

24:41

on the speak pipe for the podcast.

24:44

But the truth is I can't answer your question. It's

24:46

just not enough information, number one. Number

24:49

two, I literally could not take the

24:51

time to get with people, get all

24:54

the information I needed to answer this

24:56

question and really help you in that

24:58

way. We realized there was

25:00

only one good way to do this and that

25:03

was to start another company. And

25:05

so we did. About three years ago

25:07

we started a company purely designed to

25:09

help people like you with this type

25:11

of a question. That company

25:13

is called studentloanadvice.com. Our

25:17

head financial

25:19

coach there, our head student loan guru

25:21

there is Andrew Paulson. He is an

25:23

expert inside and outside of all this

25:26

stuff. Not only did he

25:28

go and get the CSLP, certified

25:30

student loan planner designation, but

25:32

he's now advised on, I don't

25:35

know, it's not quite a billion yet in

25:37

student loans, but it'll be there in not

25:39

too long. Because

25:41

these are complicated questions. How

25:43

do you file your taxes? Married

25:45

filing singly, married filing jointly. Which

25:47

plan? Save or pay? When

25:50

do you refinance? Which type

25:52

of retirement account do you use? Do you

25:54

use a Roth account or tax deferred account?

25:57

And there's absolutely no way to answer. these

26:00

questions without running the numbers for

26:02

you. I have no idea what your

26:05

spouse makes. I have no idea how much

26:07

tax you're giving up by

26:09

filing MFS for her. I have no idea

26:12

how much other income you

26:16

might have. All I

26:19

can talk about here is in generalities.

26:21

If you really want specific advice for

26:23

your situation, I'd book a console, the

26:25

studentloanadvice.com. Yeah, it's going to cost you

26:27

a few hundred dollars. But it

26:30

may make up for that by saving

26:32

you tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of

26:34

thousands, particularly for those who are able

26:36

to qualify for PSLF. But

26:40

here's the general guidelines. The

26:42

year that matters is the

26:44

year in which you're a third year

26:46

and the beginning of your fourth year.

26:50

So it's not 2023 taxes that

26:52

matter for you. It's your 2024

26:55

taxes. So you can go ahead and file

26:57

for 2023 married filing jointly.

27:00

And then next year, you

27:02

might want to file

27:05

married filing singlet, because that

27:07

you'll be able to then show your

27:09

income is zero. So your saved payments

27:12

will be zero. And whatever

27:14

the interest is, is basically going to be

27:17

subsidized. And it's entirely

27:19

possible that that subsidy is going to

27:21

be worth more than the

27:23

tax savings you would get by filing

27:26

married filing jointly with both of your income. And

27:28

that comes down to what her income

27:31

is, you know, she's an orthopedic surgeon. Maybe

27:34

not, it might not be worth it. On

27:36

the other hand, if she's a part time nurse,

27:38

maybe it is worth it, right? You just got

27:41

to run the numbers. That's the only way to

27:43

know for sure. But that's the point, you definitely

27:45

should file taxes, you have to anyway, because

27:48

your spouse has an income. But you've

27:50

got this question now of whether do

27:52

married filing jointly married filing singly, or

27:55

separately rather, and there's a

27:57

good chance that that is the best option for you

27:59

even. Even if you're not going

28:01

for PSLF, even if you're not going

28:04

for saved forgiveness, it may still be

28:06

the best option for you. On

28:09

the other hand, there are other options, right? I

28:11

mean, you could refinance and get

28:13

a significantly better rate and

28:15

just start working on paying stuff back. It

28:17

sounds like you're planning to pay stuff back anyway, but

28:19

given how complicated they've made the student

28:22

loan situation, that's not

28:24

necessarily the right answer for you. Hope

28:27

that's helpful as much as I can be, unfortunately.

28:30

Okay, and here we have another question also related

28:32

to student loans. Hello,

28:35

Dr. Tully. I'm a longtime listener and first-time

28:37

caller. I am participating

28:39

in a not PSLF state

28:41

governmental student loan repayment assistance

28:43

program for underserved areas. IRS

28:47

Publication 970 section

28:49

student loan repayment assistance list three

28:51

scenarios in which student loan repayment

28:53

assistance is tax-free. My

28:55

questions are as follows. One, does

28:58

this mean that repayment disbursement does not

29:00

count for a gross or an income?

29:03

Two, which tax firm do you use

29:05

to correctly report this on your taxes? And

29:08

third, my residency classmates who went the

29:10

PSLF route, and I'm including this question

29:12

on their behalf. Can PSLF forgiveness

29:14

be received? How do you report it on

29:16

your taxes? Thank you sincerely for all

29:18

you and your team do. I'm a newer

29:20

attending just one and a half years out of

29:22

training, just having access to financial literacy. It's a

29:25

world of difference. Well,

29:27

that's got to be a record. Three questions in 54

29:30

seconds, none of which are

29:32

all that easy. Let's start with the

29:34

first one. We're talking about non PSLF

29:36

state programs. So I

29:39

think you answered the question in your reference to

29:41

Pub 970. You found the answer.

29:43

This is what it is, right? If

29:46

you go to page 38 in Publication

29:48

970, you'll see a section

29:50

that says student loan repayment assistance. So

29:53

student loan repayments made to you are tax

29:55

free. If you receive them

29:57

for any of the following first, the

29:59

National Health Service Corps Loan Repayment

30:01

Program. Second, a state

30:04

education loan repayment program eligible for

30:06

funds under the Public Health Service

30:08

Act. That sounds like what you're in to me.

30:10

And the third one is

30:12

any other state loan repayment or

30:14

loan forgiveness program that is intended

30:17

to provide for the increased availability

30:19

of health services in underserved or

30:22

health professional shortage area as determined

30:24

by such states. Now,

30:27

it also puts a note in there that says

30:29

you can't deduct the interest you paid on a

30:31

student loan to the extent payments were made through

30:33

your participation in the above programs. But that's not

30:35

all that awesome of a deduction anyway. It's limited

30:37

to $2,500 a year and

30:39

most attending physicians make too much to qualify for

30:41

it anyway. So that's not really much of a

30:43

loss. But getting this

30:46

forgiven tax-free is pretty

30:48

awesome, right? Or repaid tax free,

30:51

whatever you want to call it. That's

30:53

pretty darn similar to public service loan

30:55

forgiveness. So that's great. You

30:57

know, when does it not count? Well,

31:00

it's not taxable in those situations. So

31:03

forgiveness is not taxable if it's PSLF.

31:06

It's also not taxable if you

31:08

get an IDR forgiveness between now

31:10

and I want to say

31:13

the end of 2025. Now, most people haven't

31:15

been in those programs long enough to get

31:17

that forgiveness. But if you're one of those

31:19

select few who has, that's

31:22

currently tax-free. I

31:25

guess it's possible that could be made tax-free

31:27

in the future, but most of you going

31:29

for pay forgiveness after 20

31:31

years or save forgiveness after 25

31:33

years, you better be saving up for

31:35

the tax bond because you're probably not going to get that

31:38

tax-free. And then of course, these things

31:40

that are listed here in Pub 970,

31:42

right? NHSC loan repayment, any

31:45

state education loan repayment done under the

31:47

Public Health Service Act, or

31:49

any other one, basically that your state says

31:52

is for an underserved area or

31:55

a health professional shortage area. Those

31:57

are often inner cities. They're often

31:59

rural areas. But there is

32:01

a pretty cool way to get

32:03

that benefit tax-free. So yeah,

32:06

it sounds like what you're in qualifies to me. Your

32:09

second question was how to report it on your

32:11

taxes. Well, I think for the most part, the

32:13

answer to this question as well as how to

32:15

report PSLF is pretty much, you

32:18

don't report on your taxes. It's not

32:20

a taxable event, it's tax-free. That's how it's tax-free, you

32:22

don't report it on your taxes, right?

32:25

If you got IDR forgiveness after

32:27

2025, right? They're gonna send you

32:29

like a 1099, the amount forgiven. You're

32:32

gonna have to pay taxes on that. They don't do that

32:34

for PSLF. They don't do that for

32:36

this sort of a program, right? So you don't

32:38

have to pay these taxes on it. You're getting

32:40

income, you don't have to pay taxes because they

32:42

don't send you a tax form saying you had

32:44

income. But there's not like

32:47

a special other PSLF form you

32:49

file with the IRS

32:51

the year you get forgiveness. You just don't,

32:53

it's just gone. Hope that's

32:55

helpful. Hi, Dr. Bali.

32:58

I'm a first year medical student in the United States

33:00

and I started to work on my taxes from this year. As

33:03

you probably know, the American Opportunity Credit

33:05

can only be used for the first

33:07

four years of post-secondary education. However,

33:10

I completed my bachelor's in three and a

33:12

half years and I can't find information on

33:14

the IRS website for my unique situation. Can

33:17

I claim the American Opportunity Credit for one

33:19

year of medical school? Thanks for all you

33:21

do. Great question. I

33:24

don't know the answer offhand. Typically, these

33:26

tax credits are used by undergrads, but

33:28

let's read the rules. The IRS has

33:31

publications on this sort of stuff and

33:35

informational webpages on it. So

33:37

if you go to this

33:39

webpage they have on irs.gov, it

33:43

tells you the American Opportunity Tax Credit

33:45

is a credit for qualified education expenses

33:47

paid for an eligible student for

33:50

the first four years of

33:52

higher education. $2,500 over successful

33:54

Aim have

34:00

40% of any remaining amount of the credit up to $1,000

34:02

refunded to you. So $1,000 of it's refundable,

34:06

the maximum credit is $2,500. The amount of the credit

34:08

is 100% of the first $2,000 of

34:12

qualified education expenses and

34:15

25% of the next $2,000 of qualified educational expenses. Okay,

34:20

so so far so good. You only use three years

34:22

up as an undergrad it sounds like, or

34:25

you only were in school for three and a half

34:27

years. So you should have at least another half year

34:29

to use this. I

34:32

don't think they count half years. I think

34:34

if you've claimed it three times, then you're

34:36

probably okay. If you've claimed it four times,

34:39

you're probably not okay. Now

34:41

it says you have who's an eligible student for

34:43

it says you have to be pursuing a degree

34:46

or other recognized educational credential. You have

34:48

to be at least half time. And

34:51

it says you have to not have

34:53

finished the first four years of higher

34:55

education at the beginning of the tax

34:57

year. And you have to have

34:59

not claimed it for more than four

35:01

tax years. And you can't have a felony

35:03

drug conviction. So not

35:06

have finished the first four years of

35:08

higher education. I don't think

35:11

it says that has to be undergraduate as near

35:13

as I can tell your first year of med schools your fourth

35:15

year. So I think you're okay to claim

35:17

it this year. I think I'd go ahead and do it.

35:20

I found another website that talks

35:23

about this. It's declares this

35:25

as a common misconception about

35:27

the American Opportunity Tax Credit. It

35:30

says misconception one, the

35:32

AOTC is only for undergraduate students.

35:34

The truth is that the AOTC

35:36

is available to both undergraduate and

35:38

graduate students for pursuing a degree

35:40

or other recognized educational credential as long as you're enrolled

35:42

at least half time in a program leads to a

35:44

degree you may be eligible. Then

35:47

misconception number three, it says the AOTC is

35:49

only available for the first four years of

35:51

college. It Says While it's

35:53

true that the AOTC is often associated with

35:55

undergraduate education, it can actually be claimed for

35:58

up to four years of. Post

36:00

Secondary education. This means that if you're pursuing

36:02

a graduate degree, you may still be eligible

36:04

for the with you see, as long as

36:06

you haven't already claimed it. For. For

36:09

previous years. So.

36:12

I think their support for your position, even climate this year

36:14

I think I'd go ahead. and the. Head

36:17

after Dolly. Here's a

36:20

question regarding easy attacks

36:22

as married filing separately

36:24

vs. married filing jointly

36:26

or folks who ran

36:28

the Tfl Act track.

36:31

And want to keep the payments on fall

36:33

as possible. And or live in

36:35

infamy property said. I

36:37

live in California and

36:40

undersea program. And we

36:42

have a single income household. It.

36:44

Seems like I should get a

36:46

really nice benefit pay pay me

36:48

in an essentially in have. You.

36:51

Been married filing separately.

36:53

dad as fat and

36:55

trying to understand. Be.

36:58

Tax. Consequences for says the benefit

37:00

of bringing my penis sounds. Would

37:03

appreciate your health and understand think

37:05

you. Are right. As.

37:07

I mentioned earlier on the podcast.

37:09

When you get into these complicated

37:11

scenarios is worth spending a few

37:14

hundred dollars with student loan advice.com

37:16

to make sure you're given you

37:18

know advice that a specific to

37:20

your situation from someone who knows

37:22

all the numbers involved in your

37:24

situation. I can help you to

37:26

run them so as probably worth

37:28

in your case. but let's talk

37:31

generally about community property states and

37:33

this particular strategy. The main benefit

37:35

of doing this is when your.

37:37

Spouse has a whole bunch of income. right?

37:40

So you're a resident. you're going

37:42

for P S L last year

37:45

and rolled in the same program

37:47

and your spouse is a plastic

37:49

surgeon making one point five million

37:51

dollars a year, right? And as

37:54

you report, You. Know your income,

37:56

Jointly. As really gonna?

37:59

You know? Eliminate any save subsidy you're

38:01

going to get is going to minimize

38:03

how much t s a laugh you're

38:05

gonna get toward your loans etcetera. And

38:07

so that's why people go for married

38:09

filing separately as they figure it's worth

38:12

giving up a little on the tax

38:14

side to get more money forgiven. Dusted

38:17

General Strategy A problem in

38:19

a community property state is

38:21

this: when you do Mfs.

38:24

In a community property state. You.

38:27

Gotta put half of all

38:29

community income. And. All

38:31

of your separate income on your

38:34

return. So really neuters the strategy.

38:37

Hey. And so often

38:39

it's no longer makes sense. To

38:42

put in our this sort of

38:44

the strategy in place for you

38:46

to maximize your be a celeb

38:48

soaps or which ones are the

38:50

community property State fair generally in

38:52

this is very interesting historically to

38:54

look at this of of they're

38:56

generally states that have were under.

38:58

You. Know Mexican or Spanish control.

39:01

At. Some point, Or. Friend Control.

39:03

They. Are not all of and

39:06

there's an exception Wisconsin that I can't quite

39:08

figure out what the rest of them for

39:10

the most part. Were. In

39:12

the portion of the United States was

39:14

at one point or Mexico place or

39:16

time but Arizona, California. Idaho.

39:19

Louisiana. Which is you know, another

39:21

exception is kind of French. Nevada.

39:25

New Mexico, Texas, Washington

39:27

and Wisconsin. And

39:29

if you're in any those states. Your

39:32

Mfs strategy is not going be nearly as

39:34

powerful as it is in other states to

39:36

be out running the numbers. Against

39:38

two mana base.com is probably your best

39:40

bet. But that's the problem you've

39:42

got to be in. California Residents is not

39:45

die on December first thing that other people

39:47

are doing another states isn't gonna work as

39:49

well for you. That

39:52

was taken. Next question. Though

39:54

that are Dolly I waste and I

39:56

recently opened a private practice in Ohio

39:58

and I heard you mentioned. Something recently

40:00

on a podcast we were hoping

40:02

you would collaborate on. You mentioned

40:04

something about I believe you said

40:06

p tax. Regarding. Paying

40:08

your state taxes or payroll

40:11

taxes by credit card. I.

40:13

Was hoping that you can clarify: is

40:15

there any fees or exactly where to

40:17

go to see more information? Hundred up.

40:20

Thank. You so much. How do they. Are

40:23

I see if you're a little

40:25

bit confused? You seem

40:27

be blending two different topics together

40:29

so let's just address both of

40:31

them cause is probably somebody out

40:33

there with he to these questions.

40:35

The first one is paying taxes

40:37

by credit card. And. You

40:39

can pay your taxes by debit

40:42

card or credit card. the some

40:44

digital wallet options now. What's.

40:47

You will find though the people want to

40:49

do is use their get New rewards back

40:51

for doing civil rights of the like off

40:53

and on my credit card naga one percent

40:55

back and and I got big tax bill

40:57

so that would be cool. Well what's your

41:00

find is that the seas for doing this

41:02

or not insignificant like I'm looking to the

41:04

Iris website on this right now and the

41:06

three options they have up. The

41:08

fees. or one point A to present one

41:10

point eight, Seven percent, One point nine, Eight

41:13

percent of your only and one per cent

41:15

bag. You're definitely not coming out ahead if

41:17

you're getting to present back or which is

41:19

about as good as it gets most a

41:21

credit cards these days, you're really not good

41:24

enough back to be worth this hassle. So

41:26

as a general rule, paying your taxes by

41:28

credit cards not gonna be some awesome thing

41:30

for you sound, don't bother. Of

41:33

that's helpful on that topic. However,

41:36

I think what you're referring

41:38

to. His pass

41:40

through entity tasks or p

41:42

tests. And this is

41:45

something that's allowed in more and

41:47

more states. And let me give

41:49

you the background information for this.

41:51

Started in two thousand and eighteen

41:53

the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act

41:55

tried. That trump tax cuts basically

41:57

put a bunch of of cool

41:59

tax that. And place right mostly

42:01

for corporations and other businesses well

42:03

in order to pass this in

42:05

the manner they did which is

42:07

through a process known as reconciliation

42:09

and is the only way to

42:11

get a pass without like a

42:14

veto proof majority which they did

42:16

not have. They. Have

42:18

to make a balance. Over

42:20

like ten years. So

42:22

one of the things they put in

42:24

place to have this balance is a

42:26

cast. On. Salts, taxes,

42:29

Pay. And was a mean

42:31

by salt taxes right? What?

42:34

They mean by that. Is

42:36

state and local. Taxes.

42:38

Same Local Income taxes. That's the

42:40

salt. Tax Deduction and I

42:43

used to be. Sad. if

42:45

you paid a whole bunch of money and state

42:47

income tax, you can deduct it all. On

42:49

your taxes, you don't have to pay

42:52

Federal income tax on the money used

42:54

to pay state income taxes and that

42:56

included your property taxes well as starting

42:59

with and twenty eighteen with the Tax

43:01

Cuts and Jobs Act. You

43:04

couldn't do that anymore. He was

43:06

capped at ten thousand dollars. And

43:08

if you have you a house in a

43:10

relatively expensive area, your property taxes are probably

43:13

more than ten thousand dollars by themselves. So

43:15

I'm and all of those state income taxes

43:17

you are paying or in the case of

43:19

you know, New York State and local income

43:22

taxes. your pain. Was. No longer to

43:24

duck. And. Lot of people

43:26

viewed that as politically motivated, right? Because a

43:28

lot of the blue states tend to have

43:30

high property taxes and and they have high

43:32

income taxes. A So it began as big

43:35

political football. It goes back and forth well

43:37

what a lot of states have done to

43:39

get around this is they've tried to put

43:41

in new laws. That. Allow you

43:43

to get around. Not been

43:46

able to deduct this and some of them

43:48

were not successful. In the beginning, you know

43:50

they're trying to give you a charitable deductions

43:52

for and all kinds of other things. Well,

43:54

the one that does seem to be successful

43:56

is this p Test. Passed through.

43:59

Entity. So

44:01

for a business owner, This.

44:04

Works out very well for a year

44:06

of medical practice own or something. Or

44:08

if you own a business like the

44:10

White Coat Investors something, this works out

44:12

very well as so. Basically, what I

44:15

do here in Utah has been legal

44:17

for about animal three years or so.

44:19

I think two years. I remember exactly.

44:22

But. Basically I pay my

44:24

state taxes through the

44:26

business. So. Wc I.

44:29

Pay. My state taxes. And

44:32

as a tax deduction for

44:34

Wcs. So. While law.

44:37

Because. It's of my business is a

44:39

pass through entity. While. Law I

44:41

get this credit. On. My

44:43

State taxes. For these taxes. Set.

44:46

My company has paid for me on my

44:48

behalf. So. In essence what

44:50

was not deductible a my

44:52

federal income taxes has now

44:55

become. Deductible. On

44:57

my federal income taxes is basically a business

44:59

deduction for white coat investors. so that's what

45:01

you can do. if you own your own

45:03

business, your own your own practice in your

45:06

in one of these states that allows this,

45:08

look up the specific rules for your state

45:10

for basically you're able to take something that

45:13

is not currently deductible. For. Most

45:15

of us at least not fully deductible

45:17

and make it deductible. Ness appointed passed

45:19

through and to the tax. Cut.

45:22

That's helpful for answering that question.

45:25

All right, I think we're coming now. Close to the

45:28

end of our podcast, I am. Give me the quotas

45:30

a day. Megan found this great one from Warren Buffett.

45:32

Said games are won by players who focus

45:35

on the plane feel, not by those whose

45:37

eyes are glued to the scoreboard. When.

45:39

You take care of business. Amazingly business

45:41

will be taken care of. Thanks so

45:43

much for all you guys do out

45:45

there. It is not easy doing what

45:47

you do. It's. Our job.

45:50

It's a Lot. education. And

45:52

I en la times those view and

45:54

medicine is dealing with death and dying

45:56

on a daily basis. you know. Now.

45:58

I've given the like while. Trust that dies if

46:01

I screw up. wasn't necessarily the case in

46:03

medicine. If you screw up, people do die

46:05

and that can be stressful. Some thanks for

46:07

taking that on. Healthcare

46:09

is changing and so are you. Your current for

46:11

goals are probably different than they were five years

46:13

ago, and you probably have questions about how to

46:16

achieve them. Consider look, I'm tendons as a solution.

46:19

Welcome story.com as all the information you need to

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