0:00

Joe V: Hey, welcome back to who needs school.

0:04

Our guest today is Carolyn Feinstein Edwards, the chief marketing

0:08

growth and design officer for Varo.

0:12

Which is the first all digital consumer bank in the country in is on a mission to

0:17

bring financial inclusion and opportunity to all and big news on September

0:22

9th for Varo bank acquired over $500 million in series E funding, and is now

0:28

valued over 2.5 billion in market cap.

0:32

Before that Carolyn spent 16 years at electronic arts, one of the only

0:37

women in a male dominated sector. And technically Carolyn's been a breaker of glass ceilings, her entire career.

0:45

As you'll hear in the interview, she was then the chief marketing

0:48

officer at Dropbox, where she helped take them public.

0:52

Enjoy. A warm welcome to Carolyn Feinstein and joining who needs school.

0:57

Thank you so much for taking the time to join our pod.

1:01

Carolyn: I'm so excited and flattered to be here. Joe V: Hey, well, listen, let's dive right in.

1:06

Um, just for our listeners. Could you walk us through a bit of, um, what you're doing now in your path

1:12

as to how you, uh, how you got there?

1:15

Carolyn: Absolutely. So for the past six months, I have been in the chief marketing growth

1:21

and design officer at Varo bay.

1:24

And Varo bank is a FinTech company that is unique in its space because

1:29

we're the only one of these kinds of.

1:32

All digital kind of fluid tuned to our consumer's lifestyle, um, banking

1:39

solutions that has a bank charter.

1:41

So what that means is we offer all this digital accessibility, but like

1:47

grounded in the foundation and trust and credibility of like being a real bank.

1:54

Um, so that has a lot of implications for what we're able to do.

1:58

So that's what I'm doing now.

2:01

Initially was an advisor to the company.

2:04

And about six months ago, decided to join the company

2:06

full time in an operating role.

2:09

And prior to Varo, I was the chief marketing officer at Dropbox and

2:16

kind of lived that experience sort of before, during and after the IPO of the

2:22

company, which is sort of a very unique. Experience that you can't really learn how to do until you do it.

2:28

And, um, prior to, uh, Dropbox, um, I had a 16 year career at

2:35

electronic McCarts and EA sports.

2:37

So in that capacity, I was the coolest mom on the block and, um, and had a

2:44

really fascinating, um, career there as that industry went from a package goods

2:50

product that you bought on the show. At best buy to a mobile product, to a social product, to what games are now,

2:58

which are subscriptions that operate just like any other SAS, any huge business,

3:04

Joe V: huge business, Vegas, um, tournaments and stuff like that.

3:08

Carolyn: Right. Extraordinary.

3:10

I mean, you know, a single product like FIFA from EA sports is a

3:16

billion dollar business on its own. It's really quite impressive.

3:19

Joe V: Hey, I'm going to diverge for a second. I want to ask you about that because one of the themes that's come up

3:23

in my conversations with folks in this podcast of who needs school

3:28

is, um, the potential disruption that gaming can have in education.

3:32

You know, if there were, these gaming platforms that we spend, trillions

3:36

of dollars on that, our kids, especially our boys spend hours upon

3:42

hours on, you know, with games, if they were designed in such a way.

3:46

That had educational outcomes.

3:48

Do, did you guys explore that at all? Or do you see that possibility?

3:53

Carolyn: I completely see that. And we actually did explore it quite a bit.

3:57

We ultimately determined as EA that it really wasn't core to kind of our

4:03

business and our mission, but everything you described is absolutely true.

4:07

Um, I'll give you an interesting example.

4:10

A lot of the senior executive men at EA, um, used to meet

4:17

up in world of Warcraft and.

4:21

Solve business problems in there while they were playing a game,

4:24

it was a place they wanted to be, and they were all there together.

4:28

And the process of their kind of collaboration in the game gave

4:32

them this opportunity to kind of solve collaborative issues.

4:35

They were wrestling with at work. It was super interesting.

4:39

It was essentially like being on the golf course if you were

4:42

those particular men at that time.

4:44

So, um, I absolutely think that, um, there's a, there's a whole conversation

4:51

around kind of gaming for good. Right. And, and whether we, as opposed to being afraid of the, the attraction of gaming,

5:01

why don't we instead lean into it? So I think it's a huge

5:07

Joe V: opportunity. Were you ever invited into those, uh, those meetups or whatever you call them?

5:13

Carolyn: Um, I will say that I was not a world of Warcraft players, so

5:17

I would say I, I did my collaborative work on the golf course at that

5:21

time and not in world of work. Joe V: Um, can I ask you about, so that from EA to, uh, Dropbox, uh,

5:31

being a woman leader in tech, what's that experience been like for you?

5:36

And what was it like taking Dropbox public?

5:41

Carolyn: Yeah, those are, those are big questions.

5:43

So I would say, um, I have.

5:49

Routinely been one of the very few women in the room that has changed over time.

5:55

But in my experience, um, at electronic arts, you know, there were often let's

6:03

say on a senior executive team, a global senior executive team, the number

6:07

of women were sub 10% at that time.

6:11

And I think the advice that I always give.

6:15

Young women, um, around this topic is that the only way you can lose is to

6:21

try to be more of a man than the men.

6:25

Um, you know, you have a unique set of superpowers, um, as a woman and your

6:31

opportunity is, and this is kind of true in life, but like is to lean into

6:36

what makes you unique and special.

6:39

Um, and. And leverage that.

6:42

And so that was very much, um, my experience at EA

6:47

that's where I learned how to.

6:50

You know, have you take your seat at the table, feel your feet on

6:54

the floor, you know, take up your space and like find your voice.

6:58

Right. And, um, and that might've been a little bit intimidating earlier in my career,

7:03

but as I got more and more comfortable doing that you know, it was, I was really

7:08

able to leverage the things that, that I was able to do uniquely well because

7:13

I wasn't one of the men in the room. So, um, I.

7:18

Have a strong belief that you know, a diversity of perspectives

7:22

and a diversity of opinions always leads to a better result.

7:26

100% of the time. There's some really interesting studies that show that the profitability

7:35

of companies with more diverse leadership teams aren't just like

7:39

a little bit more profitable. There are many multiples, more profitable, and I think that just comes from.

7:46

The benefits that can be obtained from listening to different

7:51

kinds of voices, trying to solve problems from different angles.

7:55

So yeah, that was very much my experience there.

7:58

And then when I left, um, electronic arts, I got some great advice from a long-time

8:03

mentor of mine who said, Carolyn you've been married for a really long time.

8:07

I think you should date, don't jump into your next, you know executive

8:12

marketing role right off the bat. And that was great advice.

8:16

And I took it. 15 months, um, advising companies and everything from beauty to infrastructure

8:23

technology, and learned a lot about myself and about what I wanted to do next.

8:28

And I think I learned that I didn't want to go work for another

8:31

company of 12,000 people, but I also wasn't the perfect fit for our

8:36

company of 50, to a hundred people.

8:38

And so, because of that experience, I was really open to the opportunity

8:43

to be the COO of Dropbox. Opportunity presented itself.

8:47

Um, and that was a great experience and a ton of learning for me.

8:52

For the first time I was marketing to me.

8:56

I had spent a lot of time trying to get in the head of 17 year old boys and,

9:03

you know, 28 year old Ben and, um, at Dropbox that we were really building

9:08

kind of collaborative solutions for.

9:12

Creative leaders and professionals.

9:16

Yeah. So that was really a uniquely exciting experience for me.

9:19

And then I think an IPO is sort of the biggest marketing event

9:24

that any company will ever have. So, you know, having an opportunity to leverage that experience to.

9:34

To con kind of further the brand story that we were telling, um,

9:37

about Dropbox was really exciting. And and IPO is like a deal.

9:42

Li team sport, right? You are in the bunker days and nights with your marketing partners and

9:49

your PR partners and your finance team and your operations people on

9:54

there's just a whole, the founders. And there's just a whole energy around that, that, um, It's a lot

10:00

of work, but I really loved it. Joe V: Yeah.

10:03

Hey, I have to ask you, what advice would you have?

10:06

I'm thinking of the advice you have for young women in this industry.

10:11

What advice do you have for men around, um, that, uh, gender diversity?

10:18

Carolyn: Yeah. I mean, I think, well, I answer it two ways.

10:22

I think the advice I have for sort of everyone is that I think if you

10:26

think about business in this moment, and certainly it's been true in my

10:30

experiences, the kind of key success factors are flexibility and adaptability,

10:38

you know, can you, can you move through situations that don't unfold exactly

10:42

the way you anticipated and really voracious intellectual curiosity, right?

10:50

You know, are you just hungry to learn every day?

10:52

These are spaces that move while you're sleeping, you wake up and

10:56

like a new social media platform been born and everyone went there and you

11:01

don't know cause you were asleep. So I think, um, just this sense of curiosity and like that really

11:07

links to, I think hopefully what we're all learning in school.

11:10

Right. But, um, so I think that's one thing.

11:14

I think for, for men, I think it's really about, um, One of the best

11:20

things that we can all do is not to hire ourselves over and over again.

11:24

We have a natural inclination, you know, this idea of unconscious bias and

11:28

we're naturally attracted to people.

11:30

People like us more comfortable.

11:33

Yep. And so really figuring out how to resist that bias and to actively look for

11:41

people who are different than you are, or maybe you fill in your own gaps.

11:46

Experience and understanding and approach, um, that's how you build successful teams

11:51

and that's how you grow as a person.

11:53

It takes Joe V: some self-awareness and humility, right. And maybe that's the real starting spot and probably a key factor

11:59

for very successful companies. So, um, now I'm gonna ask you to go back.

12:05

So can you point to things in your educational experience that

12:10

really helped prepare you for what you're doing today or perhaps did.

12:16

And you would like to see that in place to better prepare you.

12:20

Does that make sense? Carolyn: Yeah, it does. I mean, well, I'll, I'll start out by saying that I am a person who loved

12:26

school, so I'm a, I'm a lifelong learner.

12:31

Like learning is part of how I get energy in the world.

12:35

I'm like just crave information.

12:42

Um, my mom, probably.

12:44

So, you know, I am from, uh, I was explaining it to somebody the other day.

12:49

I kind of feel like I'm from this lineage of like women have kind of

12:53

wonder people who we've been, who were just like we're had passion and

12:58

energy for the world around them.

13:01

And we're excited about things that were new.

13:06

Wanted to see me places meet diverse groups of people, absorb

13:11

pieces of art read constantly.

13:13

Like that's just how I curious. So curious people.

13:17

Um, so I think, I think that's where that comes from.

13:20

I really did love school.

13:22

I, I was very happy person in high school.

13:26

I, I went to a small private liberal arts college, and then I went to

13:30

University university of North Carolina chapel hill for business school.

13:35

And, you know, was just so delighted to be back in the

13:38

classroom after a few years away.

13:41

And I think Joe V: what'd you do right after raft to college before business

13:46

Carolyn: school, um, I moved to Boston and I Interestingly worked

13:51

in for a rock radio station.

13:56

So I worked with like the marketing and business side of that, and it

13:59

was this very accidental thing that happened, but it sort of got me out the

14:06

advertising and marketing side of it.

14:11

Um, but then I very wisely decided to go back to business

14:13

school to really figure out Joe V: to,

14:17

Carolyn: um, but I, I don't know.

14:20

I think about school I think it is about us learning how to learn and developing

14:25

a passion for being a lifelong learner, um, and, and learning kind of flexibility.

14:33

And there's a whole lot of those things. Core like life lessons that we all learned in school.

14:40

I think one of the biggest things that I got from my academic

14:43

environment was confidence. You know, I think the confidence of putting your head down and

14:49

working really hard at something and having a great result you know,

14:54

not understanding something at all.

14:56

And then. Having the confidence to approach a teacher or a professor and like to get

15:04

that extra help and then conquering something I always think back to when I

15:10

think about my business school experience yes, I took statistics and venture and

15:15

accounting and all these kind of tactical skills that I acquired, but more than

15:20

anything, um, I mean, I can think back to very specific evenings in my chapel hill

15:25

apartment, where I would think, okay, I have two exams, a group project, and an

15:31

oral presentation in the next 36 hours.

15:34

I should probably just leave school. Like this is not

15:37

Joe V: consistency. Carolyn: And then somehow it would, right.

15:42

And somehow you would get that work done.

15:44

You would have learned how to draw.

15:46

I think business school is very specifically designed that you have

15:51

to reach out to your team members and your partners to get the work done

15:55

because there's too much to ever do. Joe V: Sounds like taking a company public.

16:00

Yeah. So that's Carolyn: incredible. But this idea, I mean, I find all the time in my life still to this day.

16:09

I'm never going to get all that done and then I'll remember.

16:12

Yeah, I probably will because I learned how to do that.

16:15

And so it's, it's just the building of that confidence muscle, I think.

16:19

And your, your competence as a learner and.

16:24

That I think we get, I personally got so much of in my academic life.

16:29

So Joe V: now, now things obviously in you're a parent of three, you have a

16:33

son in college, you had a couple of your twin girls were in high school.

16:37

So, uh, in schools have in society changes, right.

16:41

And we continue to evolve. So knowing what you know, and doing what you do, what do

16:46

you think we should be doing? And particularly at that secondary school level, that high school

16:51

level that's so formative, right?

16:54

Uh, to who we become as human beings, but from, from your experience,

16:58

knowing what, you know, what do you think we should be doing? Carolyn: I think that, well, I believe that like all things education.

17:10

Should be a living organism, right?

17:12

So there are kind of core foundational skills and works of

17:20

art and pieces of writing, right.

17:23

That everyone should absorb, but that we should be progressive in our approach

17:29

and kind of always thoughtful about, you know, what do, what your kids need now.

17:36

Um, one of my favorite educators once said, you know, we really don't

17:41

know what these kids are going to need to know when they become adults.

17:46

Like the world is changing so quickly that the jobs they may have

17:50

one day may not even exist today. So what we need to do is teach them how to learn, how to acquire skills, how to

17:58

be excited about taking on new things.

18:03

Joe V: Do you see that out of it, like a young employees that

18:05

join companies you've been with? Like, are they, do they, are they coming in with that?

18:10

Or do you find that to be lacking? Carolyn: I think they are.

18:14

I am really impressed by the, I mean, I've had the great fortune of

18:21

working for organizations that attract extraordinary young people who are.

18:28

Really, really bright and really driven but I am always amazed at

18:32

their at their ability to kind of get it and acquire information and be

18:40

hungry about doing it pretty quickly.

18:42

Right. I'm I'm often hiring people who.

18:45

Only have a few years of experience, so they're not coming in because they know

18:49

how to do X they're coming in because they just have raw intellectual horsepower.

18:54

And we're confident that we can teach them to do what they need to do.

18:59

Right. So it's that kind of just core learning muscle that I think is so important.

19:05

I also think, and You know, I'm a board member of 8 26 Valencia, and

19:10

this is something we talk about a lot in, as we think about educating.

19:15

And what Joe V: does eight to six Valencia Carolyn: do? So eight to six.

19:18

Valencia is an organization that tutors kids specifically around

19:25

writing and creative writing. It was founded by the writer, Dave Eggers.

19:29

And we Give kids kind of a safe, quirky, creative space to come in and have very

19:38

individualized instruction around writing.

19:41

We go into schools and kind of augment their curriculum.

19:46

And we. Deeply believe that to have advocacy in this world, you have to be

19:53

able to express yourself, right?

19:55

So you have to be able to find and raise your voice and you have to be able to

20:01

express yourself in the written word.

20:04

We talk a lot at HSX about teaching the kids, like who writes the laws,

20:09

like who gets to decide, right? Like the rules that we all live by, people who can.

20:15

Bring really important thoughts together and put them down on paper.

20:18

And, and so I, I think that is such a critical education skill for

20:25

us, like at the secondary school level, um, is ensuring that in an

20:31

increasingly complex world that people know how to raise their own voice.

20:39

They know how to appreciate and respect the voices of people who

20:43

are really different than they are. Um, and they know how to work together because so little, I think of what

20:51

we're going to do in the future is going to be done in isolation.

20:54

We're all good. We just need Joe V: each other. And what more human experience since you know, and, uh, I think of reading a

20:59

great novel, you know, when you read a great novel and you're just immersed in

21:03

Intuit total you're you're, um, it, you know, it's a, it's a very human yeah.

21:07

Thing. And you're empathetic to the characters there and just able to vicariously

21:13

experience someone in something different than your own bubble and universe in

21:18

a world that just is so expansive. And it really distinguishes us as human beings.

21:23

Right. We have that capacity to, to do that.

21:26

How important that is Carolyn: a hundred percent.

21:29

I also sort of think of school.

21:32

You know, for all of us, if you think about the moment that we've

21:34

lived through in the last 18 months, I mean, you know, school is isn't

21:40

should be a place of optimism, right? It's where, I mean, I'm very envious of your job, right?

21:45

In many ways, I think you get to be in an environment every day where

21:49

you see that we can drop hope.

21:52

Yeah. Driven, excited, optimistic kids who are like so excited to be there.

21:58

And it's a place where. You know, we get to see the future.

22:03

And and that's, that's so Joe V: exciting.

22:05

You started talking about eight to six Valencia and, uh, you know, what you

22:09

guys talk about there, and maybe the lessons you've learned in the last 20

22:13

months, you know, in what you've seen. Carolyn: Yeah.

22:17

I mean, you know, I think what we What we've really recognized as

22:21

the last 18 months have been kind of a, uh, a triple crisis, right?

22:26

So we've obviously had a healthcare crisis as we've lived through this pandemic.

22:31

We've been experiencing an economic crisis, which has disproportionately

22:35

affected the families that we serve.

22:38

So a lot of the kids who come to eight to six, You know, have parents

22:43

who are now out of work, they definitely haven't been in school.

22:48

They're attending our bay area, public schools, which have not

22:51

been largely open in 18 months.

22:55

They may not have the same access to technology in order to do Do

23:00

their learning kind of over zoom. And, and they may have lost people in their family, you know, to COVID.

23:07

So their economic situation and their social situation is really dire.

23:12

And the third part of that crisis is education.

23:15

Right? So, these kids, we talked about confidence.

23:19

These kids are returning to school pretty significant loss in the

23:24

last year and a half in terms of what they were able to learn.

23:29

And so I think there's, there's a lot of conversation about how do

23:34

they return and how can we, re-engage their confidence and their creativity.

23:40

You know, kind of re-ignite that like expressive creative raising

23:46

of their voice piece and their pride in who they are as students.

23:52

I think that's a big part. One of the things that does is you know, these kids write poetry and they write

23:59

essays and then quarterly, those were published in a book and that book is sold

24:04

and there's just this incredible pride that like a 10 year old has after doing

24:10

a piece of writing that's, you know, in a book like it's, it's pretty amazing.

24:14

And so, so I think that's what we've really learned is That the, the

24:20

individual attention and the focus on kind of creativity and self-advocacy

24:26

is really helping kids kind of regain their footing and their confidence

24:31

after really a year and a half of,

24:34

Joe V: of loss. Yeah. I, you know, I w one of the things I think that we've learned, you

24:38

know, we think of school as a place where you learn stuff, right?

24:41

You learn the skills to succeed in life, you know, get into

24:44

college and all that kind of jazz. Perhaps what's been highlighted and not, perhaps what has been highlighted

24:50

is the social importance of school for just as, uh, for our mental health.

24:55

That social interaction is so important and on, uh, on I think a granular level.

25:01

Um, that, that one-on-one mentorship that happens between a student and a teacher

25:07

or between, between a volunteer at eight to six Valencia and a, and a student

25:11

that, that, you know, very intimate human interaction can have profound

25:17

effects on our, our human development.

25:19

And we've, there was a pause, uh, where that happened.

25:23

And, um, we've certainly seen as we've come back to school.

25:29

Um, explosion is ambulant excitement of, of, uh, bringing community back together.

25:36

That just speaks to how important that is in our own lives.

25:39

And is a, is a key function of school in our society.

25:43

It's a, it's a social place for us.

25:46

Carolyn: Yeah, completely. I mean, it's also, we talk about this a lot in our family, right?

25:50

It's a place where we. Learn a lot of our social skills, we make social mistakes, right.

25:57

And we learn how to move through those mistakes.

26:00

We have disappointments we learn to self-advocate and you know,

26:06

to your point about like Student teacher interaction, right?

26:10

How to, um, ask for help, like a very human need that many

26:16

adults are not good at at all. Um, you know, like being able to have the confidence to say.

26:23

I don't understand. Um, and, and I need your help, right?

26:28

Like what could be more human than that, because we all

26:31

feel that feeling every day, Joe V: but the psychologists say that asking for help powerfully is a

26:39

powerful psychological tool, right? When you ask for help, you are inviting someone into your life and

26:43

that, you know, can create bonds and a relationship that's even more powerful

26:48

when you ask for someone's help. In Carolyn: some, I was doing it's funny.

26:51

I was just, uh, giving someone the mid-year review today.

26:56

And I gave that exact advice in the work setting.

26:59

I said, you know, if you're having trouble collaborating with another team

27:04

or another person, if you say to someone.

27:07

I need your help. It is the most disarming open human thing you could possibly

27:14

say, and it's impossible to resist.

27:17

Yeah. Joe V: There's something deep in us that wants to do that.

27:20

Right. That wants to, wants to help. Um, okay.

27:24

You get the, uh, last, uh, last bit here.

27:26

Anything that you'd recommend for our listeners?

27:30

Something you've watched read.

27:33

Experience you've had that you'd recommend for folks.

27:38

Yeah, no, Carolyn: I am a voracious absorber of podcast content these days.

27:46

So I'm a, my day does not start well, if I do not go on a long walk

27:53

with my dog early in the morning. And that's when I pop in the headphones.

27:57

And I get a lot of inspiration and a lot of learning in listening

28:03

to the stories of people.

28:07

Right? So whether that is listening to fresh air on NPR and I listened to too.

28:15

Podcasts. Um, last week, one with Questlove who just created this documentary called summer of

28:22

soul about the Harlem cultural festival that was kind of happening at the same

28:26

time as Woodstock didn't know anything about that and was wildly inspired by it.

28:32

Listen to Barry Jenkins, the filmmaker who was talking about he is with the

28:37

director of Moonlight and other films and on how he brings these incredibly

28:42

diverse teams of people together to create an Oscar winning film and what

28:47

that experience is, what was the podcast?

28:52

Uh, that was also on fresh air and I'm a complete addict of the podcast.

28:58

Smartlist, Smartlist is a collaboration between Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and

29:04

will Arnett who are three very funny, not always completely appropriate.

29:12

Um, gentlemen in the entertainment industry, but they have a podcast

29:17

where weekly, they invite someone fascinating on and they just talk.

29:22

And it's very funny, which I really appreciate.

29:26

But again, I get so much inspiration from that.

29:30

Just listening to the stories. Yeah. Talented successful people doing amazing things.

29:36

Joe V: Awesome. Great recommendations. Carolyn cannot.

29:39

Thank you enough. A fascinating conversation.

29:42

Thank you for joining Carolyn: us. It was so much fun.

29:44

Thank you so much for asking me. You're welcome.

29:48

Joe V: Thank you for joining us today. If you like what you hear, please like the podcast and follow it

29:53

and pass it along to your friends. Is it? I think this episode would be a great one to pass along to

29:57

young adults as they navigate the school world and their future.

30:02

Thank you.