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off. bluenile.com,

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Bbc Sounds and Cbc

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podcasts. I.

1:13

Like to swear. A loss.

1:15

The. Foreign power causes presented by me.

1:18

Therefore there will be swearing. There.

1:20

Will be swear words on. there will be bad

1:22

language probably regularly. It. Dot sort of thing is

1:24

for you. Consider. Yourself warned. Hello

1:28

there. Hello there of.

1:30

That have had gone to get mimic of Auckland.

1:33

Roy Rogers. Time for what you're talking to me. I'm

1:35

happy to be here. I'm happy to talk

1:37

about a real hidden truth. You know, a

1:39

real secret mystery of the internet. Ryan Broderick

1:42

might be the key I've been looking for.

1:44

A both V shaped mean

1:46

filled key. Brian. So

1:49

what's your involvement with? All these the the true

1:51

You started us. Well. You

1:53

know, in the way that anyone starts anything

1:55

on the Internet from Be With He Says

1:57

and Cbc podcasts? This is who replaced Avalon

1:59

the In. I am to Ah

2:01

Mcnally and it is episode six. My

2:04

happy ending. I

2:08

was on a trip to Brazil many

2:10

years ago. I was my first time

2:12

in Sao Paulo. I was looking into

2:14

a story about a it was his

2:16

cover, sad darker story. It was a

2:18

homeless man who was killed by the

2:20

police but he went viral and I

2:22

was sent to Brazil to write a

2:25

feature kind of collecting his what led

2:27

him to this moment and why was

2:29

there I was doing other stories just

2:31

about Brazilian internet culture standing beside the

2:33

water cooler in the San Paolo offices

2:35

of Pussies. Ryan heard about a Brazilian

2:37

internet rumor. To Oblivion The stairs the

2:39

real our disease and been replaced the this

2:41

was just one of the stray stories that

2:43

came up while I was I was there

2:46

on are putting trip. I. Was a

2:48

while I have to I have to write this down A says

2:50

this is wild. And

2:53

I tweeted about it. And

2:55

then yeah, the rest is history. He

2:58

broke the story in America. I think

3:00

it's possible I I've always wondered, but

3:02

based on what I can tell, I

3:05

was the first person to translate that

3:07

specific version of it into English. So.

3:12

Cooper weeks go by and then

3:14

Bam the stories. Massive. It's

3:16

a skill. Appeared in the

3:18

Guardian, vice are reporting us to

3:20

New York Post. A

3:22

barrage of articles teach adding I people

3:24

were saying avo might be dad's. But.

3:27

Ryan was in steerage nicer nor as it

3:29

turns eyes were any A with colleagues

3:31

standing around to Brazil and water theater. For.

3:34

The originator. We. Need to

3:36

get conceptual. It's kind of

3:38

hard to understand this this very specific

3:41

thing to Brazilian culture. the calls you

3:43

era it's not li translated over. The

3:45

best way to describe in English is

3:47

this concept where when something starts happening

3:49

on the internet everyone gets involved in

3:51

it just gets crazier and crazier and

3:53

crazier. And this can also play the

3:55

conspiracy theories as you were out send

3:57

a verb slr. meaning joke.

4:01

You could actually translate it pretty easily into

4:03

British English. It means to take

4:05

the piss. It means to sort of just

4:07

pile on, right? So the famous expression is

4:09

the zuera never ends on Brazilian

4:11

internet. So when someone comes up with something funny, a

4:14

million people kind of pile on. And

4:16

the joke I always heard was a

4:18

Brazilian meme always eventually turns into a

4:21

pop song. Like it always eventually creates

4:23

this mass pop culture thing. But you

4:25

know what it is? I mean, I can't stand the term,

4:27

but it sounds like this side of the world, what

4:29

we call banter. It

4:31

is a little bit like banter. It's

4:33

actually very similar to when you

4:36

guys sort of hijack the radio charts at

4:38

the end of the year around Christmas time.

4:40

Gotcha. Like something really funny to trend. Yeah.

4:42

Similar instinct. And I think part

4:45

of the thing that may have gotten lost

4:47

in translation about the Averlovene conspiracy theory is

4:49

that it is a little campy because there

4:52

was this real culture in what

4:54

you would kind of call like queer

4:57

Brazilian pop fan communities.

5:00

They would make up outlandish ideas. And I

5:03

think at the time I had compared it

5:05

to another one going around, which was that

5:07

the artist Sia had been kidnapped by Beyonce

5:09

and was kept in a basement. Excuse

5:12

me while I jot this down, immediately. So

5:15

the idea was that- That

5:17

explains the big hair. She's basically- And

5:19

that Sia was sending secret messages asking

5:21

for help and that Beyonce had her

5:24

in what was called a Cachuvera, which

5:26

is a small chicken coop-like construction

5:28

that you keep Brazilian kidnapping victims in.

5:30

And that was another one of these

5:32

pop music fandom conspiracies that was going

5:34

around around the same time.

5:36

Okay. So the Brazilians are the

5:39

queens of memes, the princesses of

5:41

piss-taking, the baronesses of banter.

5:44

But that still doesn't answer the dumb question.

5:46

Who stars with the Ovene territory? So

5:49

many, many years ago, there was

5:51

a very small Brazilian blog that

5:53

had outlined this outlandish idea that

5:55

Avril Lavigne had been secretly replaced. The

6:02

blog is titled Avril Esther more that

6:04

which is Avril is dead I'm pulling

6:07

up though the page or now with

6:09

the technical wizardry you'd expect from a

6:11

both these reporter by insane had me

6:13

looking at the blog posts to a

6:15

lot of i love the font it's

6:17

ferry two thousand save as was very

6:20

she doesn't to it is still hosted

6:22

on a blogspot with having is fantastic

6:24

the everyone should have a blogspot. The

6:27

best describe. I mean the background is

6:29

like a band in factories or yeah,

6:31

we like a woman standing in it.

6:33

It's not an uplifting place to be.

6:35

yeah and I don't think it's from

6:37

one of her music videos. I think

6:39

it's the Reach the stock photo of

6:41

like a sad lady in an abandoned

6:43

factory and it outlines this gigantic saying.

6:45

What's very funny is that it appears

6:47

to have been updated since I last

6:49

looked to the has a screenshot the

6:51

bottom of it's own Wikipedia pits than

6:53

a inspired which I think is great

6:55

sound huddle the lyrics My songs. It's

6:57

I'm Talking Lyric has music videos

7:00

comparing before and after. Work

7:03

at got into this Oh yeah yeah

7:05

know this is a this is a

7:07

an incredible real deal yeah services growing

7:09

a thesis. I've

7:13

always wanted to find a very original blogger

7:15

who may yeah a web page but I

7:17

can never tracked him down. Were you ever

7:19

to able to track them down know you're

7:21

my your way source Ryan I I don't

7:23

one thing ice ice hims use of the

7:26

answers. Well I mean I believe of the

7:28

time I spent a while on like domain

7:30

tools trying to figure out like who on

7:32

the web page and do all the way

7:34

down. but even when I was in Brazil

7:36

I I can never find someone who knew

7:38

someone who knew someone. nothing. It's a dead

7:40

end in unless it was average herself. I.

7:45

Mean the most important thing is that. As.

7:47

Funny as this all is, The.

7:49

Blogger does admit that this was kind

7:51

of of. An experiment. A

7:53

performance art piece. Maybe you could call it to

7:55

see what would happen if you put us out

7:58

of the world. I just felt. down

8:00

right to the bottom and believe me it takes

8:02

a lot of scrolling to get there. I

8:05

just scroll to the bottom. There's a paragraph

8:07

that might be our answer to the question.

8:09

Why? At the end, what lesson could I

8:11

leave with all of this? What I would like to

8:13

draw attention to, people who read my blog, it is

8:16

about how much the world is susceptible to believing

8:18

in things no matter how strange they seem.

8:21

I feel like there's kind of a moral ending

8:23

to this, but they're trying to teach

8:25

us a lesson. Yeah. Like, have you

8:27

ever stopped to think about how many fun ideas people

8:29

believe without even realizing it? Just

8:32

because they choose to believe it rather than simply

8:34

accepting the more likely reality of things, it feels

8:36

like it's turned into a critique on fake news.

8:40

As I sat there reading the concluding

8:42

paragraph, I thought back to my

8:44

hastily botched attempt at starting a

8:46

conspiracy theory, my attempt at

8:49

testing whether rumors could be started without

8:51

a kernel of truth and spread online.

8:53

It looks like our Brazilian blogger was

8:55

doing exactly that. You

8:59

have to wonder, like, at what point was

9:01

this added in right into this stalling document?

9:04

I do think that the person who made this

9:06

clearly, based on the ending here, where

9:08

they write that you shouldn't believe everything you see on

9:10

the Internet, more or less, maybe feels

9:12

a little a

9:14

little responsible for this thing in the world.

9:16

It's the same way I do. It's a

9:19

very contaminated piece of content. Like, the more

9:21

you pass it around, the more people kind

9:23

of fall for it. Yeah. Most weird things you

9:25

see on the Internet are

9:27

usually done on purpose by

9:29

like a weird person who's just having fun.

9:31

And then it spirals out of control. Like,

9:33

I do think very, very few things are

9:37

like actively malicious on the Internet, you know,

9:39

at a certain scale. And then it gets really

9:41

crazy as it gets bigger and spreads. Yeah. And

9:43

I think people forget that the Internet is like

9:45

a place where people can be silly and

9:47

people can like make jokes and then the jokes

9:49

stop being jokes. But that's the problem. Yeah, of

9:52

course, because it's like the way I started calling

9:54

someone babe in an ironic way and now I

9:56

actually use it as a term of dicks, it

9:58

starts to feel good. And you're like, oh, I'm

10:00

a babe person. now. Yeah. I'm just really

10:03

curious. I'm pulling this up

10:05

in the Internet Archive because I'm curious if

10:07

we can find out when that was added because I

10:09

don't know if that was in the original version.

10:12

There is, it turns out, a

10:14

magical Internet tool called the Wayback

10:17

Machine. You can take a website

10:19

and then rewind the clock on us.

10:21

Essentially, it takes a snapshot of the

10:23

website from, say, 2012. Oh,

10:27

okay. I have some

10:30

great reporting for your show right

10:32

now. In the

10:34

earliest version of

10:36

the Avril is Dead blog post, the

10:39

ending does not appear. The

10:43

little lesson does not appear

10:45

as of 2012. Well, I

10:47

guess that makes sense because the original idea was

10:49

that people will believe it. If it has a

10:51

lesson at the end warning people about fake

10:53

news, they're not going to, you know, kind

10:56

of bite yourself in the foot. Based

11:02

on the time that I've spent on the Internet

11:04

over the years, I'm going to guess that this

11:06

person made this thing, did not think about what

11:08

would happen if it went viral. It went way

11:10

too viral and then decided, actually, this

11:12

was a big performance art piece. Yeah. Which

11:15

is, I feel like, a very typical trajectory for these

11:17

kinds of things. I'm

11:19

surprised they haven't come out to take credit for it. I would.

11:22

I guarantee you they're scared of being sued

11:24

by Avril Lavigne. I

11:27

guarantee that is like part of the reason

11:29

is that whoever this was, because I imagine

11:31

this was like some kid in 2011 came

11:34

up with a funny thing or genuinely

11:36

maybe believed it. It went viral

11:38

way too viral on a scale

11:40

they didn't ever imagine. I love the

11:42

journey of this. I love the place. This

11:44

person is obviously heals themselves. Maybe they've got

11:46

into meditation. They've come back with a fresh

11:48

angle. But I genuinely think they need to

11:51

come out and get their Nobel Prize for

11:53

Zuera. I'm

11:56

just impressed they were able to log back into

11:58

a blog spot after all. those years.

12:00

That's such impressive password management. That's

12:03

amazing. Yeah. Did

12:05

you ever think there was any truth to us? No,

12:08

no, no, no, no. Well, you know, you look at

12:10

the photos and you say, well, no, no, of course

12:12

not. I just I think Avril Lavigne is

12:14

the same Avril Lavigne. I think what it is

12:16

and if I can get really high-minded, if you

12:19

allow me to get real high-minded with this, I

12:21

do think that people get naturally suspicious when

12:24

they spend too much time on the internet.

12:26

They're bombarded with images. A famous person,

12:28

you know their face really well, but

12:30

they're a person. They age. They change

12:32

over time. And I think when

12:35

you're just sitting alone on the internet and you're

12:37

looking at too many images of Avril Lavigne one

12:39

night, I think it becomes really easy to create

12:41

a conspiracy theory rather than just accept that she's

12:43

someone who has aged 30 years,

12:46

let's say, in the public eye, which

12:48

is probably what actually happened. So

12:51

if you look at the pool is dead conspiracy theory,

12:53

the idea that Paul McCartney died in a car crash

12:55

in 1966 and was

12:57

replaced by a lookalike who also are

12:59

very helpfully had his voice and his

13:01

musical talent. It's a literalization

13:04

of the kind of fear that the

13:06

Beatles changed. Thinking to Ryan

13:08

reminded me about the chat I had with John

13:10

Ellidge and Tom Phillips. You heard

13:13

them in the last episode, explaining the

13:15

strange history of conspiracy theories. Like

13:18

if you kind of look at the Beatles in 1964, they're basically what

13:20

we now call a boy band

13:22

is the lovable mop tops next door. You wouldn't

13:24

mind your daughter marrying one even if you want them

13:26

to get a haircut. By the end

13:28

of the 60s, they are clearly

13:30

taking shed loads of drugs and

13:33

making psychedelic music and kind

13:35

of part of the cultural revolution. And

13:37

that's sort of scary. As

13:40

my journey was coming to a close, I

13:42

had another big unanswered question. Why

13:44

did I believe the things I believed? Why

13:47

did certain Avril fans believe she had died and

13:49

been replaced? The idea

13:51

that the Beatles had changed Because

13:54

like their generation had changed kind of

13:56

gets projected onto the idea. Well, well,

13:58

it's because they're literally not. Paypal,

14:00

so it's a coping mechanism for changed,

14:02

So that's exactly what it is. Ib

14:05

life you can think of the other way

14:07

round. use that. think of the many theories

14:09

attached to be blue dye eggs, the idea

14:11

that Elvis is still alive, possibly be living

14:13

on Kubo ever. This as of is very

14:15

much a coping mechanism that his death is

14:17

was the most terrifying inexplicable things of all

14:19

the via the idea that someone can just

14:21

we can't we just as a way that

14:23

you the despite this having been with us

14:25

Pc says beginners is quite do we would

14:27

go head round So in some ways I

14:29

think it is an attempt to kind of

14:31

like reassure yourself about that this always already

14:33

dead he says he says. Dell size just

14:35

over there. Because.

14:38

He. Considers. Celebrities like God.

14:40

That is kind of hard to get your head

14:42

around the fact that they will succumb to something

14:44

as normal as death. so we try and keep

14:47

them alive on. Islands get

14:49

a gigs exactly as these kind of

14:51

like god like figures has to have

14:53

like godlike stories. and the idea that

14:55

Elvis my have to sell a attack

14:57

of a toy last region to be

14:59

cheeseburgers? it doesn't say it was a

15:01

mess. Doesn't. Say yes, it's not a

15:03

way to go with he says. I can think of

15:06

worse ways to go but arsenal of the conversation

15:08

we're having run up. But yeah is a just

15:10

doesn't feel like the right endings like has a

15:12

story as superstardom. So.

15:17

Instead of that's exactly the. Apple have been

15:19

free will or maybe her style

15:22

scientists. Which is too hard

15:24

to accept for people who are proper

15:26

like balls deep into fandom telex but

15:28

up on know except enough to see

15:30

death the person now the dancing at

15:32

Apple of A and it's not relevant

15:34

to the same person that the body

15:36

double. Avril, his Dad The Avalon I was

15:38

das. So I'm just gonna make sure

15:41

she's really that. But like imagine if we

15:43

we started doing this now person lives and

15:45

like you if you kind of grew apart

15:47

from someone you love with his lights. Whoa!

15:49

It's not just the we grow in different

15:51

directions says she was literally replaced by a

15:53

lookalike are most was sent. Isn't love me

15:55

anymore. It.

15:59

Would. things a lot easier I will say. Like

16:02

it does take the rejection out of it, it doesn't

16:04

take the thing out of it if you're like well they're

16:06

actually they've been replaced by someone else. Here's

16:08

John's colleague Tom Phillips. It's

16:11

a well-known paranoia, it's what my parents have it

16:14

about their children. You know like

16:16

sort of the changeling myth is a really

16:18

really old one that goes across many cultures

16:20

like it's like oh no my child isn't

16:22

my child anymore it's you know it's a

16:24

really really common thing. Yeah I will say

16:26

the one thing that surprises me is Taylor

16:28

Swift literally said in a

16:30

song that the old Taylor can't come

16:32

to the phone right now she's dead

16:36

and yet this hasn't actually prompted

16:39

any Taylor Swift is a replacement

16:41

conspiracy theories that I'm aware of

16:43

so I wonder if by owning

16:46

it and actually incorporating it into

16:48

her body of work Taylor has

16:51

somehow managed to nullify

16:54

the conspiracy theories. Maybe

16:57

Avril's next album should go in fully on

16:59

the theory. I was hints galore. Take away

17:01

another inch or two of ice. Start

17:04

speaking and singing with the slight

17:06

southern twang. Start wearing cowboy boots.

17:09

Raise some eyebrows. Give

17:11

Melissa a damn writing frat. One

17:17

of the major attractions of

17:19

conspiracy theories is that

17:22

they flatter you. You

17:24

know the truth. Yeah. When other people

17:26

don't. You feel like you're more intelligent.

17:28

You're like oh you're just accepting the

17:30

information you've been given. I'm

17:32

doing the research. And of course you

17:34

know in the music world in the

17:36

world of fandom that is

17:39

a hugely attractive thing you know like

17:42

I'm a better fan because I know this.

17:45

You don't. Another one is that

17:47

often people who are particularly in the internet age

17:49

people who kind of get really into a conspiracy

17:51

theory often if they kind

17:53

of give it up that means Saying

17:56

goodbye to the friends and social network it

17:58

has brought. Yeah. Was he

18:00

really hard thing to do is I mean as we

18:02

just one of the many ways in which has become

18:04

a conspiracy says ramos like becoming a liberal Democrats. Speak

18:08

sense community. It.

18:13

Turns out, when he wants to believe something

18:15

you're desperately. Cling to information and police

18:17

the fields the back of that position.

18:20

While. Ignoring opinions and evidence that

18:22

contradicts us. Listening back to

18:24

some of my interactions, I think that the

18:26

and click guilty of. Death have you heard

18:28

the rumor about? I will have an.

18:31

Outlaw unless he sighed and like she's as

18:33

on a free as on yeah. Complete

18:36

yeah nonsense. Eleanor.

18:39

That maybe spend more time on the internet that I.

18:42

Know that I don't think she. Would do

18:44

that. Replaced by Body Double. This is

18:46

a I your name is Terrifying. As

18:49

your eyes are firmly believe that

18:52

right? But none of us citizen

18:54

hours of i would say thing they

18:56

were an on to. I saw us.

19:03

Before. We continue time for a quick

19:05

break. My name is Annie Mcmanus. A

19:07

Muslim when? so. how long have we

19:09

known each other Made probably twenty is

19:12

on. In that time we've always

19:14

works. In Unaware Music last Comic

19:16

sans it with your pocket spent.

19:19

Twenty years in the make. It is not. So

19:25

we'd prefer the world to write music. They

19:28

saw the stuff the and one attacks you

19:30

may allow. a was. Sidetracked

19:32

with us any unnecessary.

19:35

On Bbc sense. Now. Were

19:37

wary. Your. Book is literally titles a

19:39

history of Bollocks theories and how not to for

19:41

for them. So gonna give me some advice for

19:43

the future. The. Authors John Adage

19:45

and Tom Selleck. For.

19:48

Example: when the Taylor Swift for place

19:50

when theory inevitably com the Rams Hamilton

19:52

to avoid falling as a similar robin

19:54

how they do Barbara. adding the

19:56

best he can do to avoid falling down

19:58

the rabbit hole is Basically

20:00

try and falsify your own arguments. The

20:03

scientific method to get really potential from

20:05

them is basically It's

20:07

not based on trying to prove something. It's based on seeing

20:09

if you can disprove it and if

20:11

you can't it is probably true Okay,

20:13

I think the same applies to conspiracy theories

20:15

in the same way that you might want

20:17

to undermine the kind of received narrative You

20:20

should apply that kind of logic to your

20:22

own theories and see if they stand up

20:24

The other thing is really actually do take

20:26

a moment to check things out Lots of

20:29

conspiracy theories are based on false claims So

20:31

it's always worth double checking if you're told

20:33

something is true Don't take that at face

20:35

value in the same ways you wouldn't take

20:37

the official narrative at face value if someone

20:39

tells you oh, yeah Look, there's this information

20:41

over here. Look this proves it does

20:44

it and finally

20:47

honestly Go for

20:49

a walk The moment you feel

20:51

something is kind of taking over Turn

20:54

off go for a walk chat to a

20:56

friend just Back

20:59

away for a little bit because it's when you're

21:01

kind of in the heat of the moment when

21:03

you're going down that rabbit Or when you go

21:05

like I'm so close to finding the truth That's

21:08

when you're going to end up fooling yourself

21:12

Advice heated I went for a stroll I Just

21:17

popped out for one of those heads Clearing

21:19

walks and I was thinking back

21:21

to what Ryan was saying about the original blog

21:23

post Detailing the overall theory and I thought I

21:26

don't know everything Melissa's name on the post At

21:28

no point did they mention Melissa Vandela as the

21:31

replacement? I even just checked now on my phone

21:33

and the name It's not there

21:36

The name's not there. So now I'm thinking where the

21:38

name come from So Talk

21:43

to me about the Melissa element of

21:45

it all I called Ryan again just

21:47

to check So she her

21:49

name isn't mentioned in the original blog post

21:51

and you don't mention her either But a lot of

21:54

the stuff that I read she's very much part of

21:56

the story that Abba was replaced

21:58

with this body double-clawed Right.

22:04

She was not in the original version that I

22:06

saw. I have become aware of Melissa. And that

22:11

came later and by somebody else, somewhere else. What?

22:15

Well then who the hell is Melissa? From

22:23

back in front of my laptop for one

22:25

last deep dive to try and find

22:27

this Melissa woman. And I've

22:29

some leads now and I've more tools and I've

22:32

more experience but Google is of no help. If

22:35

you search Melissa's name, nothing comes up.

22:37

Like nothing. Like loads comes up obviously but

22:39

not what I need. So I need to be smarter about

22:41

this. Savvier. Hours

22:47

passed. Well, all

22:49

error. Okay. 20 minutes passed but it was

22:51

a very focused 20 minutes. Sharp.

22:54

I think I've already found her. I found

22:57

her completely obscure Twitter

22:59

thread. I landed on something

23:01

kind of interesting. I think

23:05

I've found Melissa. I

23:07

think I've found Melissa.

23:09

Yeah. I think I've found Melissa. Groucho,

23:15

hello. Hello. How are we? I'm good.

23:17

Good. I brought you back to the original place we

23:20

started this journey together. I feel like you've

23:22

been on a journey and I've been chillin' with my cats.

23:24

Everywhere I went you were there in spirit. Oh.

23:26

Spitting on me from the ceiling. Taking

23:29

me down from the edge. Anyway, I have updates.

23:32

Have you found Avril's killer? I kind

23:34

of, kind of sort of know. Beyond

23:37

reasonable dates? Beyond

23:41

reasonable dates? I wouldn't call it reasonable.

23:43

I mean I wouldn't call any of this reasonable,

23:45

would you? By how far is

23:47

the origin but not the person? That's a bigger

23:49

question. Let

23:53

me take you back to the blog spot

23:55

era. Do you remember that? A gentler time.

23:58

A gentler time. Did you ever have a plan? log

24:00

not really I think I sat one up and

24:02

that is never a title it's like I do

24:04

I know I've no follow through did you do

24:06

you fuck I did yeah of course it yeah

24:09

yeah I mean I didn't write

24:11

anything interesting in it yeah you know like it

24:13

was basically teenage diary on the internet the world's

24:15

thing oh yeah no shame and that guy yeah

24:17

but I was late 20s it

24:21

was either really really boring or really really dark and then in

24:23

the back of it there was loads of pictures of Adam Rickett

24:25

with his top off Adam

24:28

Rickett English singer soap star

24:30

and former pinup boy no

24:33

offense Adam anyway

24:35

this blog in particular is so I got Avril

24:37

esta mortar I

24:41

know how's your Portuguese Portugal is

24:43

the killer Portuguese present oh

24:45

how tropical so my

24:47

assumption is that it means Avril is dead Bing

24:49

Bing well done Avril is dead

24:51

was first posted on the 6th of May 2011 so

24:55

that's the date this whole theory started it

24:58

was eight years after Avril supposedly died the

25:00

word did not travel fast what I

25:02

do know about the author very little to

25:04

be honest I've really tried it could be

25:06

a male journalism student called JL but that's

25:08

just what it's out on blog spots I

25:10

think the whole thing about blog spot is being anonymous anyway

25:13

so I kind of have to take that with a pinch

25:15

of salt okay yeah they were probably afraid of getting sued

25:17

and maybe you should be afraid of getting sued

25:19

that's what Ryan said is a defamation

25:21

to say someone's dead when they're not

25:23

dead I mean I don't know kind

25:26

of is I mean it would it would interrupt their

25:29

professional flow well I feel

25:31

I should congratulate you because I I think you

25:33

are a proper journalist now cute think Louis three

25:35

will be bright of course he

25:37

would anyway

25:39

I haven't shown you my trump card yet I've

25:41

got a big scoop go on do you remember

25:44

one of the key pieces of evidence was the

25:46

photo of Avril with Melissa written on her hand remind

25:48

me about that now the assumption was that she

25:50

was trying to give out a sign that she

25:52

was Melissa or has been replaced by Melissa blah

25:54

blah okay yeah I did a

25:56

lot of digging and I found the

25:58

original tweets Now

26:00

because you don't have the journalistic skills that I do, I'll explain

26:03

it to you. Okay. This

26:05

is a post from avrill.org, so it's

26:07

a really popular Avril Lavigne fan site.

26:10

It's the origin of the Melissa photo. So

26:12

the caption reads, Thanks Avril Lavigne for the

26:15

coolest photo. So glad the Avril Foundation reached

26:17

its fundraising goal. Now scroll down and

26:19

read some of the comments. So

26:21

cool Melissa. That is

26:24

the greatest photo ever. OMG is

26:26

that your name written in her

26:28

hand? Wait, Melissa

26:30

runs the Avril site? Yes! So

26:33

Melissa is the anti-hero in this whole thing.

26:35

She's just a big fan of Avril. So

26:38

she won a competition to have her name

26:40

written on Avril's hand and that's the prize.

26:42

So this photo is just a

26:44

competition prize for a woman called Melissa who's big

26:46

into Avril. Wait, what do we

26:48

know about Melissa? Well she won't reply

26:51

to my DMs, but no one does so I'm

26:53

used to that. She loves Avril Lavigne. She

26:55

lives in Canada. She was

26:57

born in 1988, so similar age to Avril, but

27:00

most importantly, she

27:02

looks nothing like Avril. They're basically

27:04

polar opposites. Here's a

27:06

photo of the two of them together. I

27:09

mean, nothing

27:11

alike. They couldn't look more different. No, they're

27:13

like chalk and cheese. And

27:15

yeah, Melissa's taller. How disappointing. I just,

27:17

I really, I feel like, I came

27:20

into this very sceptical.

27:23

And then I felt you won me over. Yeah,

27:25

I think I had you for about three minutes. Yeah.

27:28

I could see it in your eyes. And I really loved

27:30

that three minutes. I know. The world was just

27:32

more interesting. It's nice to believe in something. We've

27:35

lost God. This was my replacement. So

27:37

go on then, answer the question.

27:40

Who replaced Avril Lavigne? Well,

27:46

to the best of my knowledge, a

27:48

bored and very creative teenager

27:51

from somewhere in Brazil hypothetically

27:53

replaced Avril. What

27:58

an anticlimactic outburst. questions are such a

28:01

pressing question. What

28:03

now? Well, I don't know, I

28:05

think I just need to present my evidence to

28:07

Avril. I need

28:09

to speak to Avril. To

28:13

apologize? Well, actually yeah, okay,

28:15

that wasn't my first priority, but

28:17

yeah, I probably do our little apology. A

28:19

little one. And

28:22

thank you Garod for keeping me grounded through all

28:24

of this? Yeah, yeah. Thank you Garod for keeping

28:26

me grounded. You're welcome. So

28:32

I'm back in Napani, which is where

28:34

Avril started her journey, so it

28:36

seemed fitting that I finished my

28:38

journey in Napani, plus I'd have to get down

28:40

to bed, but I feel it's nice to

28:42

just be in her presence,

28:44

even though she's not present. I

28:46

knew that Avril had not been back to

28:48

Napani for a while, but my hope was

28:51

if I posted a letter to her childhood home,

28:53

it would somehow get back to her. I

28:56

know my logic is flawed, but crazier

28:58

things have happened, right? You never

29:00

know. Maybe she's listening to me now.

29:03

Hi Avril. She's gone

29:05

above my generation, do you know what I

29:07

mean? So we contact via pen and

29:09

paper, what we did back in the day, and that's the

29:12

other thing, it'll be nostalgic for her to read something, and

29:14

I did a letter like Bubble Hearts and stuff like that,

29:16

and like happy faces on the eyes. I'm

29:18

gonna read it for you now, okay? You ready? Dear

29:21

Avril Lavigne, I hope this letter

29:24

finds you well, or indeed finds you at

29:26

all, in this life or the next. My

29:29

name is Joanne McNally, and I've been on

29:31

a wild ride entirely based on the suggestion

29:33

that you don't actually exist, and now I

29:35

want to tell you all about it. Years

29:38

ago, someone mentioned to me that you

29:41

were dead, that the punk icon that is

29:43

Avril Lavigne had died and been replaced by

29:45

a lookalike called Melissa. I

29:47

believed it. Like

29:50

the way I believed weight loss shakes actually had maggots in

29:52

them who eat your fat off. That

29:54

kind of thing. Someone told me you got shorter,

29:56

your voice had changed, and even your mouth had

29:59

been moved. which could have been a

30:01

melanoma issue, but let's face it, you don't look like

30:03

a tanner. But then I

30:05

went looking for evidence. I spoke to Voice

30:07

Expert, to

30:09

handwriting expert, I dove deep into

30:11

the weird world of conspiracy theories

30:13

and I realised you're actually still

30:16

alive. I know that won't be

30:18

news to you, Avril, but I think I do

30:20

also have something else to add to this story.

30:23

But more than that, I'd actually just love a chat. I've

30:26

written to your agent, I've DM'd you on Insta,

30:28

which I'm sure you haven't ignored, you've just not

30:30

seen it, there has been no tick. And

30:32

finally, I'm writing you a letter. As

30:35

I say, I want to speak to you,

30:37

I want to apologise face to face,

30:39

not only for believing, Avril temporarily, that

30:42

you were dead, but

30:44

also for not understanding what you mean to so

30:46

many people. I have to be frank with you,

30:48

Avril, I was not a dogged fan. Don't

30:50

get me wrong, I wasn't not a fan, I

30:52

just wasn't anything. I don't really

30:54

listen to music at all, to be honest, Avril, I'm more

30:56

a white noise girl, which I know is odd, but I

30:59

try not to think about it too much in case I

31:01

unearth a mental health issue that won't be re-earched. But

31:04

my investigation into your personal conspiracy theory has

31:06

given me a new thing of respect for

31:08

you and your music. To see

31:11

you come through this near-death experience and

31:13

survive the sinkholes of fame, you

31:15

are a marvel, and I respect it. I

31:20

guess what I'm saying, you look happy, Av. You

31:23

were a success while you're an

31:25

inspiration. To paraphrase you,

31:28

all this time you weren't pretending, I

31:30

hope you got your happy ending. So

31:33

what are my demands? Well, two things. Firstly, I'd

31:35

love my very own Melissa photo. I want

31:37

you one written on your hand in permanent marker,

31:40

and I want the photo on my wall. Please.

31:44

And secondly, arguably more important, I'd like

31:46

you to get back to me. You've

31:48

survived so much in this world, Avril. Would

31:50

it kill you to reply? Hit me

31:53

up on Insta, please. I have a blue tick. You'll

31:55

find me there. I'm legit.

31:57

I'm somebody too. I'm Ash

31:59

Joanne McNally. comedy and I will

32:01

be waiting patiently Avril listening to

32:03

Love Sucks because

32:05

it does. Yours

32:08

gratefully in anticipation from the BBC

32:10

and CBC Joanne McNally. If

32:18

she doesn't reply to that, she's a little bit. The

32:26

bull is in your court now Avril. I'm

32:35

kidding Avril, I know you're a little bit, you're not a bitch.

32:38

Throughout this series I've grown thanks to

32:40

you. I've more journalistic rigour and

32:43

more appreciation of what you brought to the

32:45

world and I've learnt how easy it is

32:47

to fall into the spell of conspiracy theory

32:49

thinking. I now feel ready to

32:51

discern the real from the fake and you're real

32:53

Avril, you're real. What I'm

32:56

saying is I'm ready for season 2 of

32:58

Joanne McNally Investigates because I have very good

33:00

reason to believe that Tupac

33:02

is alive and living in

33:04

Serbia. I have my

33:07

sources and they're very reliable. Who

33:25

Replaced Avril Lavigne is produced by

33:27

What's The Story Sounds for BBC

33:30

Sounds and CBC Podcast. The

33:33

presenter was me Joanne McNally. Our

33:35

producer and editor is Colin McRae. From

33:40

What's The Story my executive producers

33:42

are Darryl Brown and Sophie Ellis.

33:45

At BBC Sounds the commissioner is

33:47

Louise Cattenhorn and the assistant commissioner

33:50

is Lorraine Aquafina. At

33:52

CBC Podcast Sarah Clayton is

33:54

our producer, Amanda Cox is

33:56

the cross promo producer, Evan

33:59

Agarwal. is the video producer

34:01

and the senior manager is Tonya

34:03

Springer. The executive producers are

34:06

Chris Oak and Sathil Fernandez.

34:09

Aarif Narani is the director and

34:11

Leslie Merklinger is the executive director

34:13

of CBC Podcast. Similar

34:16

to the listeners, I've never heard of any of these

34:18

people, nor have I ever met them, which

34:20

is strange considering I apparently work for them. Hi,

34:36

I'm Phalen Johnson. And I'm Lia Simone Bowen,

34:38

and we look at history a bit differently.

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don't. New episodes available now wherever you get

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