0:12

Hello, and thank you for joining us on another episode

0:14

of Why Theory. As always, I'm am your

0:16

host Ryan Engly

0:17

joint as always by cohost, Todd

0:19

McAllen. Todd, how are you doing, buddy? I'm

0:21

doing good, Ryan. How are you? I

0:23

am doing well. And today, we

0:26

are beginning the first of two think seasonally

0:28

appropriate episodes. We're, of course, gonna

0:30

dip into our our our Santa's

0:32

bag. and come up with a

0:34

Christmas themed episode for

0:36

just before Christmas releasing a little

0:38

bit earlier. But today, also seasonally

0:40

appropriate, we're talking about debt. I

0:42

think that's a that's a

0:45

topic on I probably

0:47

on a lot of people's minds all the time. Unfortunately,

0:49

I may have some stories that may come up

0:51

in the course of this conversation to talk

0:53

a little bit about that from And we encourage

0:56

all listeners to go into debt, to buy

0:58

holiday gifts for him. Yes.

1:01

That's right. Yeah. known known capitalist,

1:03

Ryan Anglietam McGowan. Yeah. Of course.

1:06

So Go with deep debt. Yeah. This

1:08

is a this is a requested

1:10

episode by our can we call our

1:12

friend already? I I guess call her because we

1:14

we quite we got along quite famously, but

1:16

our ambassador Taylor has has

1:19

-- Yeah. -- at the at this Yeah.

1:21

At the debt collective, which is the best

1:23

thing to come out of the occupied movement.

1:26

people don't know know about it. Well,

1:28

okay. Well, first, we'll introduce her. Yeah.

1:30

Astrot Taylor, filmmaker and political activist,

1:32

cofounder of debt collective. And what

1:34

the debt collective does, among

1:37

many things, they do liaise with

1:40

the government on things such as student debt.

1:43

advising the Biden administration

1:46

not to forgive student

1:48

debt in the way that they did, which has now been

1:50

open for court challenge and around.

1:52

So for one thing, but they also buy

1:55

people's debt and

1:57

and and make them debt free.

2:00

So it's a great I

2:03

initiative is probably too small of a word,

2:05

but it's a yeah. So wonderful organization.

2:08

So we're doing we're doing this episode

2:10

at her request.

2:13

Hi, Ashra. And It's

2:16

also this is also kind of a backdoor

2:18

Lecan Seminar sixteen episode.

2:20

So -- Correct. -- that'll be fun. because

2:23

by the time we get to seminar sixteen, I think

2:25

I'll have killed you and consumed her remains.

2:28

That's right. And there'll be a new co host. there'll

2:30

be a new co host. And I wanna be clear, I don't want

2:32

to do that. I just I will have to. Like,

2:34

that's just how we're I think that's that's how it works

2:36

in in our religion. So

2:38

so debt, Todd.

2:42

In I

2:43

think the I think a good place to start

2:45

with this would be the

2:48

to move dialectically. Let's start with the common

2:50

sense

2:51

idea.

2:52

So you use this phrase

2:54

earlier. The common sense idea is that you go

2:56

into depth. Now I think -- Correct.

2:58

-- I think we're gonna we wanna challenge

3:00

that in in a certain way. So what's what's

3:02

I don't know if wrong is the right word, but I'm just

3:05

just for want of of a better phrase.

3:07

What's wrong with thinking about debt in

3:09

that way that you go into debt? Right.

3:11

I think you said this to me, and I think it's

3:13

right that that debt is

3:15

asymmetrical. Right? Like, debt is

3:17

the you did say this. And that

3:20

is the starting point, not the

3:22

position that you fall into.

3:24

So -- Mhmm. -- and I I should

3:26

be clear. This is within capitalist society

3:29

because I think it's possible to imagine

3:33

other epics in which

3:35

this wasn't the case, but capitalist society

3:37

absolutely depends upon nearly

3:40

everyone being indebted

3:43

and for sure the working class being

3:45

indebted and we'll talk a little bit later about the

3:47

structure of the way pay

3:49

is given out in the way that that ensures

3:51

debt. But so so debt is

3:54

primary. And I think that's a really

3:56

important way to think about things

3:59

But it

3:59

then and this is another important

4:02

way in which and this is something else we'll

4:04

talk about at length. way

4:06

in which debt is ideological that it

4:08

gives you the sense that you can somehow

4:10

get out of debt and become

4:13

whole. And III I'm reminded

4:15

of this Stated by Paul Manafort,

4:17

who is Donald Trump's first

4:19

campaign manager -- Mhmm. -- and

4:21

he wrote to one of his Russian

4:23

cohorts. And he said, how can we

4:25

use to get whole? Meaning, how

4:27

can I use my position on the

4:30

Czech campaign to get whole

4:32

And my grandfather was a great,

4:34

an avid gambler, and he I

4:36

used to hear him on the phone, talk to his book,

4:38

he'd say, what can I can I give you

4:40

my daughter to get whole? I can you know,

4:42

can I what could I use to get whole?

4:45

He didn't did say that. He lost my

4:47

phone. But but

4:49

he said a lot of things. He

4:51

would have said my wife. Could I give you my wife

4:53

to email? That's for sure. He would have said that.

4:56

But the point is that that there's an

4:58

idea of wholeness attached to them,

5:00

and that wholeness doesn't

5:02

exist because we're always

5:04

necessarily lacking subjects. Right?

5:06

So that -- Yeah. -- that's the the

5:09

dupe, the dupe thing that takes place

5:11

within even the concept of debt, but

5:13

I I like what you said that the idea

5:15

of going into debt -- Mhmm.

5:17

-- it logically obfuscates the

5:20

fact that we are starting we

5:22

have to start out in debt and we always have

5:24

to remain in debt. that. And not

5:26

only us members

5:28

of the not members of the elite

5:30

or the upper class, but everybody

5:33

within capital society, I think it's a really

5:35

interesting point that not that

5:37

even the the wealthiest Like,

5:39

even Bill Gates will take on debt

5:41

when he wants to expand Microsoft. Right?

5:43

So it's not so it's not

5:45

like debt is just confined to

5:49

the the even the middle class.

5:51

Right? Like, that permeates the

5:53

permeates capitalist society, which I

5:55

think is part of the way the ideological

5:57

work that it that does. You

5:59

know, one of the chief

6:03

fan complaints of the Manchester

6:05

United ownership the Glazer family

6:07

is that they that that's what they do is

6:09

that they they take

6:11

out loans to buy players.

6:13

They don't use any of their own

6:16

money for it. And so

6:18

it saddles the club with debt, which they

6:20

can get out of kinda whenever they want, if

6:22

they wanna sell they wanna sell the

6:24

the club, and then the stadium is in disrepair

6:27

because they don't put any real money into that.

6:29

And they also have the team listed

6:32

on the New York Stock Exchange.

6:34

So, like, the so all of these so

6:36

what they've managed to do I mean, they're not

6:38

even, like, particularly that smart. I mean, like, anybody

6:40

could do this if you had that much money

6:42

is you find out a way to

6:44

own something and invest in it

6:46

without putting any of your own money into it. And I and

6:48

and but but it but that requires

6:51

like, that requires debt. And

6:53

the I I think the what

6:55

would you say? The grace that has afforded

6:57

the riches that you have

7:00

assets such that you can go into debt

7:02

with the idea that you can get out

7:04

of it, that you can get

7:05

whole in

7:06

this -- Right. -- at least from the perspective

7:09

of an Excel spreadsheet. Like at

7:11

Right. I think only from that perspective though.

7:13

Right? Like, I think that the I think

7:15

that the whole point is you'd

7:17

you'd never I I mean,

7:19

that's one of the ways that capital functions,

7:21

I think, that it that it holds out

7:23

the idea that you could get hole like the

7:25

laser could get whole at any time they wanted

7:27

to. Mhmm. But, of course, they

7:30

never do. Like, they stay the

7:32

whole point is to how much debt are we

7:34

gonna run up? And if you go to a

7:36

this is an interesting exercise. Once

7:39

you're further along, maybe you

7:41

should try it. Like,

7:43

we went to our -

7:46

we got in a position where we

7:48

could pay off our condo. Right.

7:51

And so we went to our person

7:53

that does our taxes. We're like, we're we're gonna

7:55

go pay out. And he's like, don't do that. Don't do

7:57

that. You wanna hold on to a certain amount

7:59

of debt And we're like,

7:59

we

7:59

don't like having debt. We're gonna get rid of our

8:02

debt. And and he'd said, it's not

8:04

in your financial interest --

8:06

Yeah. -- to get rid of your debt. So

8:08

it's just like with the Glazers situation.

8:10

Like, the the the

8:12

structure of capitalism is such that

8:14

you don't you're penalized pretty

8:17

severely sometimes -- Yeah. -- for getting

8:19

out of debt because it precisely it

8:21

takes you it it I mean,

8:23

obviously, capitalism isn't a thinking

8:26

machine. But what it does is it takes you out

8:28

of this psychic investment in

8:31

the system if you're not indebted. And I think the

8:33

when you're when you remain indebted,

8:35

you you remain in this psychic

8:37

investment, which is crucial. And and what's

8:39

attached to that is this idea of eventual

8:41

wholeness. But if you

8:43

if you if you recognize that

8:46

you're inherently a lacking subject, you've

8:48

never the the idea of

8:50

some time when you're gonna get whole, it doesn't

8:52

really tempt you because you know that that time

8:54

will never come. Yeah. It's, you

8:56

know, it's an interesting example, and we may talk

8:58

about my my own

9:00

personal debt history on this such that it is

9:02

relevant to the conversation. But I

9:05

ran up a lot of debt in getting

9:07

in, well, in college,

9:09

just in general, just in my

9:11

20s and because I wasn't making a lot of money. I

9:13

mean, I think that happens to a lot of different people

9:15

and Every everybody to that. Everybody.

9:17

And I started to claw I started

9:19

to claw back because it was it

9:22

was six figures. It's five figures

9:24

now, high five.

9:26

But but some of the credit cards I've

9:28

been able to pay off. And

9:30

one of the first card that I was able to

9:32

pay off because I started with the highest interest,

9:34

they canceled it on me because I stopped

9:36

using it. for, yeah, a period

9:38

for a period of years. And one of my other I

9:40

had a credit line through

9:42

PayPal, and I just checked the

9:44

the account the other day because

9:46

it was the first and I wanted to make sure that

9:48

there wasn't anything on there. And they had

9:51

reduced my because I wasn't using

9:53

it, they had reduced my credit limit.

9:55

from what was pre it was previously I

9:57

don't know what it was to, like, a thousand

9:59

dollars. But it and I was like, are you

10:01

kidding me? I was like, that's because that's you

10:03

know, that affects your credit. Like, your like

10:05

and your your credit is,

10:09

like, is determined. Like, your

10:11

credit score determine one of, you

10:13

know, big factors, of course, is, like, how much

10:15

debt can you take on? That's the

10:17

whole idea. how much debt do

10:19

banks or whatever trust you with? Like,

10:21

that's your that's your score. That's your Yeah. But

10:23

what's your the point you're raising is

10:25

fascinating because you you're

10:27

actually capable of taking on more

10:29

debt, and they're lowering your credit limit.

10:31

Yeah. So it's it's it's like because

10:34

they wanna reward you for

10:36

taking on debt and penalize you

10:38

for paying it off. And I think that's a

10:40

really, really important way

10:42

that that structure works.

10:44

Well, that's basically Right? So yeah. So let's

10:46

I I wanna move to that. So that well, I think what

10:48

we just went into, that's the practical asymmetry.

10:51

I think of of debt is that you

10:54

think that it is, like, oh, yeah,

10:56

get out, you know, get out of debt. That's gonna be good

10:58

that's gonna be good for your credit. And I think, like, you

11:00

know, there are other but I you know, given, like,

11:02

some examples that that's not

11:04

that's not true. It's not true. That's not

11:06

the that's not the that's not the goal. It's not,

11:08

like, defeating the final boss in a video

11:10

game or something like that. that's not, you know,

11:12

you you you want it you actually wanna lose to these

11:14

bosses. That's what the that's what the credit

11:16

companies and the banks. That's that's that's what

11:18

they want. But what is the like,

11:20

so the the psychical

11:22

asymmetry is, I

11:24

think, where we're gonna hang our

11:26

hat a lot in this episode. And

11:29

as I said, this is a backdoor seminar

11:31

sixteen episode. We we covered a little bit. We

11:33

covered the four discourses from seminar

11:35

seventeen. I think we and we talked about

11:37

the Santone. So that's, like, the

11:39

farthest out in Lecan's Cannon

11:41

that we've covered. He introduces and

11:44

does not talk about again.

11:47

Right? But for maybe scant reference?

11:50

Yeah. There's a few references. There's a few

11:52

references. Mostly not. And and

11:54

and this idea surplus and joyous and joyous. You're a

11:56

good rate to see. Yeah.

11:58

Yeah. French, it's Poost Desjure, surplus

11:59

and joyous.

12:02

It's

12:02

fascinating because he he

12:04

he derives it from

12:06

Marxist surplus value. Mhmm.

12:09

So And and he's

12:11

and and and he says in a very

12:13

fascinating and suggestive statement,

12:15

you know, really what's at

12:17

stake in capitalism is surplus.

12:20

enjoyment more than

12:22

surplus value. And then you're

12:24

like, alright. There's gonna be some

12:26

rich. And then he's like, And then let's

12:28

talk about Pascal. So there's

12:30

really and then I'm

12:32

gonna develop these four discourses in the next

12:34

seminar that have absolutely There's not

12:36

gonna be a capitalist discourse except, you know, in this

12:38

other talk that he gives.

12:41

So that's pretty disappointing, I

12:43

think. Like, at the moment, he's gonna

12:45

really he could have

12:47

formulated AAA

12:49

psychic theory of capitalism. Mhmm.

12:51

He just he just he just doesn't do

12:53

it. I mean, I guess I should be thankful

12:55

because then I wouldn't have been able to write capitals of

12:57

a desire. But I could go.

12:59

But I mean, but it would have saved me and I could

13:01

have done something more interesting. Right?

13:03

Like, I think that that that there's

13:05

really no excuse for it. Like, that that that,

13:08

you know, it's an incredible I

13:10

mean, I don't mean to attack him too much

13:12

because it's an incredible insight. But you're you're

13:14

I think your point is exactly right that it doesn't

13:17

really doesn't really develop it

13:19

or go with it, but you could

13:21

say that the idea of surplus

13:23

enjoyment is the key to understanding

13:25

the way capitalism works.

13:27

And then Mhmm. Like but he

13:29

doesn't

13:29

he doesn't work

13:30

that out at all. And I think it it centers around

13:32

this idea of debt.

13:34

Yeah. Yeah.

13:35

So well, so let's

13:37

get into it. Let's get stuck in. Okay. Yeah.

13:39

Yeah. I think this is your

13:41

line, so I'm not gonna I'm gonna just

13:43

say this. but this is your this

13:45

is your idea, but I'm going to say it. Just

13:47

like how just well, I mean Just how I still

13:49

have your asymmetry. You still

13:51

have asymmetry. point. No. You didn't steal it. You just you

13:53

just said it. So I'm gonna do the same thing here.

13:55

The the this is your point that the

13:57

fundamental gesture of capitalism is to

13:59

turn a lacking subject into

14:01

an indebted person. Yeah.

14:03

And I think that's a a great insight.

14:05

And this is like, I don't think

14:08

you're I think this is

14:10

innovative. I don't think this is iterative of

14:12

of lacan because he

14:14

doesn't he doesn't he

14:16

doesn't generate his own thing from that

14:18

insight. But I think that's the idea

14:20

is that and and and so if

14:22

you if you understand lacking

14:25

subject, you then

14:28

this is I

14:30

think this is your point in

14:32

capitalism and desire or or maybe maybe

14:34

I'm getting ahead of myself because I haven't read your

14:36

current book. that you're working on. But I think this

14:38

is where you're sort of coming to, which is that,

14:40

like, if if you accept

14:42

the fundamental premise, of

14:45

psychoanalysis that we are lacking

14:47

subjects, then what capitalism does is

14:49

really take advantage of

14:51

this primary and

14:53

prior disposition that

14:55

we that we have to

14:58

then to move into the

15:00

material. So such

15:02

that then the psychic

15:04

reality that we walk around with all

15:06

the time, lacking subject, smashes

15:08

up against material the

15:13

reality for wanting a better word. And

15:15

and it's mutually reinforcing

15:18

that, like, you know, that

15:20

that going being able

15:22

to being able to to

15:24

to get a mortgage. Right?

15:27

To go into that kind of debt is

15:29

a goal. Right?

15:31

Like, so -- Yeah. -- and and that

15:34

trajectory is begins

15:36

in the psyche. Would you say that's sort

15:39

of your point? Yeah. Absolutely.

15:41

Absolutely. Right. And then you

15:43

know, and then the the the rep but

15:45

IIII would even add that it I

15:47

think it provides respite. Right? Like the

15:50

but like, we think of being in

15:52

debt is a horrible thing. And, of course, it is

15:54

a horrible thing. That's why there's a debt collective.

15:56

Let's say a debt initiative that, like, that

15:58

that attempts to, like,

15:59

deal with the

16:00

problem of debt, especially that

16:04

incurred by predatory companies

16:06

or by universities that

16:08

that issue loans, banks that issue

16:10

loans so people can go to university.

16:13

But

16:13

the

16:14

the respite is that it it allows

16:16

you to see there it seems like there's

16:18

a light at end of the tunnel. Right? Like, it

16:20

seems like if you're

16:22

a lot if you recognize or

16:24

confront yourself as a lacking subject, there's no

16:26

light at the end of the tunnel. Right? There's no Mhmm.

16:29

Because everything that's that

16:31

every every moment of

16:32

excess that you can possibly experience

16:36

is is

16:38

intricately linked to your lack. Right?

16:40

Like, there's no like, you can

16:42

have this moment of access just because

16:44

you're lacking, not the excess doesn't

16:46

eliminate the lack. But I think

16:48

with that, it's the opposite. With

16:50

that, you think, wait a minute. Once I

16:52

get out of debt, then I'm then

16:54

I'm home I even use these terms. Right? I'm

16:56

home free. Right. Right. I'm full.

16:59

I've I've overcome the

17:01

the burden of of my of my

17:03

debt. Right? And I think that that that

17:05

getting clear, free that's

17:07

another term people use. Right? I'm free

17:09

and clear. all these

17:11

terms suggest that leaving behind of

17:13

that burden and of that

17:16

suffering and I'm I'm

17:18

out. I'm I'm free of it. And I think that's

17:20

the really misleading dimension

17:23

of

17:23

lack. I mean, of

17:25

of the terrible slip. It's a

17:27

really misleading dimension of of debt

17:31

relative to lack because lack

17:32

doesn't give you that that out

17:34

in the way that that does?

17:36

Well, yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, like,

17:39

yeah, like the if you if you think

17:41

about the again, just to to go dip

17:43

back into the practical and the material,

17:45

like, why would you why would you wanna get

17:47

out of debt so that no

17:49

one would say it this way. but

17:51

this so that in the future, you

17:53

can take on more debt or you can

17:56

use the debt that you can take on, you can do

17:58

it more wisely. Like, that's

17:59

the I that

17:59

that is I I think the idea is I'm like, oh, I

18:02

made mistakes. I mean, like, I

18:04

was telling you before, like,

18:07

I stupidly I'm

18:09

gonna offer my my my stupidity

18:11

as a sort of a A lot of people have done

18:13

this, inclusive of me, not

18:16

quite to the your extent. But anyway, go ahead.

18:18

Yeah. Go ahead. It's a it's a good story.

18:20

I mean, it's good. I guess so. Yeah.

18:22

Yeah. So after the after, I mean, long time listener. Maybe this is

18:24

someone's first episode. If

18:27

if if it is hello? Hi. Hi. New

18:29

listeners. I so after

18:31

I was in the car accident, that

18:33

left me with traumatic brain injury this two

18:35

thousand seven. As you might imagine,

18:37

I didn't have a car anymore.

18:39

So

18:40

I, to my mind,

18:43

needed another

18:44

car, and

18:45

I was that's

18:48

what I thought I needed.

18:50

we'll get to what I probably was. I actually needed in

18:52

a second. And so I bought with

18:54

my father's help, I decided

18:57

to take out a lack of help.

19:00

for, like, well, that's you know, my mother listens to this and

19:02

I think she's Okay. I'm sorry to No. No. I think she

19:04

would I think she would agree with you at the time.

19:06

But it wasn't like, he would just

19:08

was trying to do what I wanted to, but I didn't know what

19:10

I wanted to. I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah.

19:13

So the so I got a

19:15

new car, like a like a new car. Not a

19:17

new to me. It was a new car four miles on. Right.

19:19

And I got this

19:21

loan that was terrible.

19:23

It was it was

19:25

like a I don't know. What's a regular car loan?

19:28

It's like how many years? It's

19:30

like five years, I think. This was

19:32

like it was AA7 or

19:34

eight. Wow. I didn't know they could do that at least.

19:36

That's the that is the proper reaction.

19:40

And it was just such an

19:42

albatross. for me. And it was like,

19:44

that's why, like, I had to I had to

19:46

I had to work at Walmart, I had to pay off this

19:48

thing, and then I was a grad student making less money

19:50

than I was when I was at Walmart. And

19:52

I had to take another loan out.

19:55

I had to take out a loan to pay off that loan,

19:57

but then the loan that I took out

19:59

because UVM because of the circumstances

20:01

interest was so high. When I went to URI, I

20:03

had to take out another school loan to pay off of

20:05

that one. And then just to get to

20:08

a place, where it wasn't so

20:10

immediate. So I could stick

20:12

all that loan on the later

20:14

base and not think about it.

20:16

And the but to me,

20:18

I had one friend who saw

20:20

who saw through the whole thing, my friend, Dan, who I

20:22

don't know how often he listens. But

20:25

I showed him my new car. I was like, hey,

20:27

I got this new car, and he was like,

20:29

how much was the value of this car? And I

20:32

said, said, like, I think twenty

20:34

thousand, he's like, so you're twenty thousand dollars

20:36

in debt. And I was like, well, I got a

20:38

new car. He's like, well, you got

20:40

twenty thousand dollars debt. And I wanted to

20:42

change the subject and not confront that. But

20:44

he was right. Right. He was very

20:46

right. And so

20:48

that that whole that

20:50

whole thing though is like it

20:53

what

20:53

this this idea of respite is that

20:56

at every so at the stage where

20:58

I took out loans to pay off other

21:00

loans. At each stage of that, it

21:02

did feel like I was accomplishing something.

21:04

No. I know. That's the thing. Right.

21:06

I I agree with you. It doesn't feel

21:08

like rest, but it feels horrible. It feels

21:10

horrible when you have creditors calling

21:12

you or, you know, you your your

21:14

you have to think about declaring bankruptcy or, you

21:17

know, all these things feel horrible,

21:19

but I think that and

21:21

I think when you Look, there are

21:23

people, obviously, who when they didn't see a light

21:25

at the tunnel at all, they they've

21:27

killed themselves. So it's not like it's not it's

21:30

not nothing. But the point

21:32

is that the

21:34

structure of debt is such

21:36

that it creates the image,

21:38

the future image of amelioration.

21:40

Right? And I think that's what's

21:43

different than whack. And even and

21:45

and and there is this You

21:47

can also play this game like you've played it

21:49

and described it as infinite postponement. Right?

21:52

Like -- Yeah. -- postpone it, put it off a

21:54

little bit put it off a little bit. And I so

21:56

I think there's that.

21:58

Whereas, your

21:59

lack, you have to confront every day all

22:02

the time. Right? Like the the

22:04

debt, you can just say, okay, I'm gonna put it

22:06

on a new card and postpone it

22:08

down put it down the road. And I think

22:10

that's why it really I

22:12

think really the maybe this is

22:15

hyperbolic to say, but I I part of

22:17

me thinks that the the

22:19

the key to capitalism's psychic

22:22

hold over us. It's power over us.

22:24

Mhmm. It lies in debt. Like, it

22:26

lies in the way that debt functions as

22:29

this you know, obviously, there's the seduction

22:31

of the new commodity in the way everybody's

22:33

drawn to that. Of course, that's a big part.

22:35

Mhmm. And the the the ideal

22:38

of accumulation But I I

22:40

still think that there's something to that

22:42

that really is because it's so ubiquitous

22:45

within

22:45

the capitalist economy

22:47

and within capitalist

22:49

society thinking in terms of debt and

22:51

and and the idea of

22:53

debt is is

22:54

unimpossible to get rid

22:56

of. Right? And and I think that is true.

22:58

That's not just a ideological lie.

23:01

So I don't know. So I think

23:03

that that's it's really a crucial thing, and

23:05

I think your story really shows how it how

23:07

it

23:07

just insinuated, like and

23:10

and the way that it's tied to getting

23:12

the commodity Right? Like, you you you

23:14

the new car, you felt like you and so

23:16

the only way to get the commodity that you

23:18

want is to increase your or

23:21

go into I just use the term right there, go into debt,

23:23

but increase your debt. Right? Like, that's the

23:25

only way to get the new the new

23:27

-- just commodity. -- the pressure. Yeah.

23:29

And so then you you end up in

23:31

this thing where, like, why do I need the job

23:33

school so much? It's like, well, I have

23:35

to pay off the car loan. Why do I need

23:37

the car? It's like, well, I got drive to work somehow.

23:40

And -- Right. --

23:44

that that was a problem. And

23:46

I, you know, and I just just the

23:49

the the just the the what I I

23:51

what I what I said, what I really wanted

23:53

and I like, I I think we do this. I think this

23:55

just goes back to the to the lag point. What

23:57

I really wanted at time was to

23:59

was an independence because --

24:02

Right. -- it was after the car accident,

24:04

and I was

24:04

in the hospital for a month and then outpatient

24:06

rehab, and I was so dependent on other

24:08

people. And so I thought that

24:10

a car because this is like it's

24:13

been maybe a long time since we talked about

24:15

this, but, like, the the way that

24:18

especially in this country. The

24:20

way that we talk about freedom

24:22

is as it's though

24:24

you can acquire it. as though

24:26

it is purchasable could. And

24:29

we'll we'll talk about freedom

24:32

in a different way when we in the

24:34

New Year, when we talk about start

24:36

and being in nothingness because I think he's really good on

24:38

this point in that book. But

24:42

I I thought, like, I I I'm gonna

24:44

be purchasing freedom.

24:46

You get some wheels. You get

24:48

to, you know, you get hit the open road. You can

24:50

do whatever. And and I wanted to feel,

24:52

you know, more more

24:54

independent. And what what did I

24:56

actually do was I became more

24:58

dependent. Right. And

25:00

and more like,

25:03

And I think that this is another sort of cyclical

25:05

thing. Like, it's it's easier

25:07

to become dependent and indebted

25:09

to things than to people.

25:12

You know, like you for sure. Like, when you

25:14

feel indebted to a person, that

25:16

feels worse than indebted

25:18

to a thing. To a bank?

25:21

To a yes. Yeah. To a

25:23

bank. No. I mean, it's true. It is

25:25

interestingly true. Right? Like, if if you

25:27

were in if you had to

25:29

be indebted to mister Potter rather

25:31

than to this anonymous bank.

25:33

Yeah. I think it would've it would've been more

25:35

difficult, I think. Yeah. Right? Like, if you

25:37

said, like, okay. I'm no

25:39

longer gonna be dependent

25:41

on my parents, but instead I'm gonna be dependent

25:43

on mister Potter -- Yeah. -- then I think

25:45

you'd you'd mind if thought twice

25:47

before you bought car. But I think that in fact that it's just

25:49

the anonymous bank, the thing --

25:52

Mhmm. -- I think you're really right. I think there's

25:54

really something to that. And I think it's

25:56

important that banks do not

25:58

personify themselves. Well, it's like, is a dealer

25:59

no deal the best example of this? Did you ever

26:02

watch that show? I never watch this. You

26:04

never watch that too. never

26:06

watch it once. Tell me tell me what. People

26:08

will know what I'm talking about is that

26:10

there's deal or no deal that there

26:12

is a figure of the

26:14

bank. on the show, but it is a

26:16

person in a room, in a darkened

26:19

room. And it just it just says

26:21

bank under the person's name.

26:23

And so It's

26:25

like the Is there

26:27

is there visage dark? So

26:29

you can't see them. You can't see them. Oh, wow. You

26:31

can't see it's so it's like

26:33

It's like a a what's the

26:35

what's the film? Oh my god. Why am

26:37

I I'm I'm gonna blow Oh, yeah. The

26:39

customer doctor Mabusa. Thank

26:42

you very love you. Is that what you had in

26:44

mind? That is exactly what I had in mind. Oh,

26:46

god. Yes. It is it is like

26:48

testament of doctor Mabusa. That is exactly what it

26:50

looks like. And

26:52

and but I I think that for

26:54

for AAA reference that

26:56

is more typically in my wheelhouse, This

26:58

often comes up in Hallmark movies where, like, there's a problem

27:00

with the bank. And there's, like,

27:03

the there really isn't an avatar of the

27:05

bank. If there is, they're, like, always

27:07

in, like, stretch limousine or something like that.

27:09

They're just not really people. They're not like they're not

27:11

characters. Yeah. And I think that

27:13

that but that makes

27:16

graphic By the way, I watched the best Hallmark film last night. It's

27:18

called Lights Camera Christmas. It's the eight and

27:20

a half of Hallmark films. Oh, to

27:23

my god. It's where two people fall in love on the

27:25

set of a basically a hallmark

27:27

film. Like, it's a making of like

27:29

AAAA hallmark type film for

27:31

a Diogenicity. it's

27:34

absolutely incredible. Well I'm gonna go the other

27:36

way while we're on this little Christmas

27:38

digression. Oh, go ahead. Do not do not

27:40

do not do not watch the

27:42

Lindsay Lowen falling for Christmas.

27:44

Yeah. I thought it was kinda disappointing

27:46

too. Yeah. Yeah. I was a bummer. But

27:48

you know what? I thought the things they did

27:51

that just for our just for a little

27:53

bit of break here. The I

27:55

thought the things they did in that movie that were,

27:57

like, specific

27:59

to like, that that were unique to

28:01

that thing, like, what what what they were trying

28:03

to do. I thought those things were good, but the things that

28:05

were bad about the movie was it was really

28:07

trying to be a homework film as, like, it but it just did

28:09

the genre things. Like, there's this, like,

28:12

product placement for Netflix out of

28:14

nowhere. It's trying to do these, like, all these

28:16

establishing shots all the time. Like, you

28:18

literally fall into the person. You don't kiss

28:20

until the end. Like, it it

28:22

it and it clarified that

28:24

kind of, like, for me, that, like,

28:26

the hallmark genre. Like, the the hallmark has

28:28

made itself its own genre. Now these other places

28:30

are trying to do the same thing. And now, Hallmark

28:33

is doing the eight and a half of Hallmark. they're

28:35

doing that, like, fascinating. really,

28:37

really different things. Yeah. Interesting. I

28:39

mean, the other thing, like like,

28:41

I think you could you could I would

28:43

say

28:43

this about the falling for Christmas that you

28:45

could it's it

28:46

doesn't take much to think about how you could

28:49

make that into a good film. Well,

28:51

isn't The most interesting thing about it is that

28:53

the the the love and the male

28:55

love interest, not the guy she falls in love with, but

28:57

the guy she's going to be engaged to

28:59

is probably queer, but the they

29:01

just hint at it. They don't, like, like, you're

29:03

you're not No. That's your net worth business.

29:05

And and by the way, Walmart

29:08

there's a there's AAA gay

29:10

Christmas film, Sunday, premiering. So it's

29:12

like -- Okay. -- if you think you're doing the Hallmark

29:14

film where you don't really lean into,

29:16

like, queer themes. Like, homework's already doing it.

29:19

So No. Here's what I here's where I need to,

29:21

Bob. You can't have the capitalists end up

29:23

being a good guy at the end. No. That's a good point. Just

29:25

can't it's I cannot have a Christmas

29:27

phone like that. Just like, it's true of the

29:29

disaster film too. If the if the capitalist is

29:31

a good guy, it's just not a it's not a it's not a

29:33

it's not a disaster film. That

29:35

guy plays the same role in in

29:37

at least two other Christmas films -- Oh. --

29:39

this year. He he I

29:41

play as a generous So that's the

29:43

other thing I would say about that via

29:45

cycling. Like, I I thought she

29:47

was pretty good in mean girls, but,

29:50

like, I don't know. Yeah.

29:52

It's a rough it's rough acting

29:54

wise, I have to say. Anyway, support

29:56

I felt like I guess. I know. I

29:58

felt like I was owed something after saying

30:01

to your home. So I felt

30:03

like I was indebted or someone

30:05

else debt to me. I think that

30:07

Netflix owed me a certain amount of money after that.

30:09

But let me just say that I think that the,

30:12

like, the the the

30:14

structure of the the

30:16

way in which the debt lures

30:19

us, I think is really I

30:21

think that that can't be understated.

30:23

And I I wanna turned

30:25

to a different film from the I

30:28

don't I don't even think I should use this in the

30:30

same sentence with falling for

30:32

Christmas. There's a great film, and

30:34

it's wildly underrated, I think, calm

30:36

in time. Part of the reason it's

30:38

underrated, it has Justin Timberlake

30:41

doesn't ruin it. So that's but it

30:43

has Amanda Seifried who's remarkable.

30:46

Right? She's just remarkable. She she it's

30:48

basically a superstar. A girls co star. I

30:50

I'd like how you how you got here. That's true. I got

30:52

the that's the connection. Yeah.

30:54

Who was far outstripped the

30:56

the lead from that That film

30:59

so so is Regina George. I mean,

31:01

that's You know Jonathan Bennett, I

31:03

just unbelievable. Lindsay Loewen's love

31:05

interest in that film. He

31:08

who's gay in in real life. He's the

31:10

star of the gay Christmas film. He's gonna

31:12

be on homework on Sunday. Wow. So there you go.

31:14

There you go. A lot of mean girls

31:16

connections. A lot of mean girls connections. But and

31:18

and so in time is with a fantasy free

31:20

Justin Timber, like, and it's basically a Bonnie

31:22

and Clyde story said in

31:24

the future, in a world where

31:27

rather than trading money,

31:29

they the commodity is time.

31:31

And so you have a thing on

31:33

your arm, a clock that is

31:35

constantly ticking down and when it gets to

31:37

zero, you're dead. So they they have

31:39

the ability to preserve life

31:43

conceded the film is they have the ability to preserve life

31:45

infinitely, but they

31:47

they create an artificial scarcity.

31:50

And then Timberlake

31:52

and Seafree'd go around

31:54

and steal like, she's the daughter

31:56

of a rich man who

31:58

has billions of hours of time.

32:01

Mhmm. And she ends up running he

32:03

comes to the guy's house and he end she ends

32:05

up running away with and they

32:07

they become lovers and they rob they

32:09

rob banks just like banks

32:11

of time and they give it to the the just

32:13

like Robin, they just they redistributed it

32:16

and But what's interesting is they don't

32:18

like, Robinhood

32:20

is charitable. Right? Like, the redistribution

32:22

is charitable. Their redistribution is

32:25

political. So they -- Mhmm. -- by redistributing

32:27

the time in this like wild

32:29

way, they throw off the entire

32:32

temporal

32:32

economy because,

32:34

like,

32:34

the the whole economy depends

32:37

upon people feeling indebted to

32:39

indebted relative to how much time they

32:42

So you're all you're always behind the eight ball and

32:44

you're you're barely making enough

32:46

to live even the next day. Right?

32:48

So you have to Yeah. Yo.

32:50

You wanna talk about this. This connection between

32:53

temporality and the the

32:55

the commodification of time.

32:57

Right. Absolutely. Right. Right. Right. Like, time is a

32:59

that's the whole point of the film. That time and

33:01

I think that I mean, the reason I

33:04

think people didn't like the film. They're like, that's a little

33:06

too obvious. I kind of like obvious.

33:09

Mhmm. That that that

33:11

time is, like, that time itself

33:13

becomes the commodity that we don't have

33:15

enough of and that we're always feeling

33:18

like we're in debt about. So this

33:20

constant debt relative to our

33:22

own existence, our own

33:24

temporality, I think as to me,

33:26

that's really the

33:27

this incredible. It's what I

33:29

think we've all we often talk about it. It's

33:31

a wonderful life, and I mentioned

33:34

Potter, it's a wonderful life of film about

33:36

debt. And Kappa has an earlier

33:38

film, the first reel of Kappa film called

33:40

American Madness, which is also set

33:42

in a bank and tells base it's the

33:44

same kind of ideas doesn't have the nice

33:46

Christmas ending. It's

33:48

very good though. But basically

33:50

Hollywood avoids the question of debt

33:52

in a in a remarkable way. I

33:55

mean, if you think about it, like, what's the

33:57

it should be the thing that almost

33:59

every not almost every audience

34:01

member could identify with. And

34:03

and and it speaks to them.

34:05

And yet, it's it's it's

34:07

so carefully avoided by so

34:09

many Hollywood films. So I think it's a it's

34:11

a threat. Like, debt is the threat or bankruptcy

34:14

is the threat, and then it's never but

34:16

what it this person isn't dead and they are

34:18

bankrupt. Right. Right. We see someone

34:20

struggling with their debt

34:22

during

34:23

the timing,

34:24

time of the running time of the film. Almost never.

34:26

Usually Given how much

34:28

all of us struggle with our debt,

34:31

throughout on the running time of our lives. Of our lives.

34:34

Yeah. You wouldn't you think that

34:35

that would be part of what the film

34:37

would depict, but it's it's

34:39

incredibly rare, I think. Mhmm.

34:41

Yeah. It's

34:42

yeah. Typically typically, it's

34:44

the like, it it is the the

34:46

the rocket booster to get to what

34:48

the point of the film actually writes it to. Right.

34:51

you know, like, it's you know

34:53

what? Like, a a giant leap in psycho.

34:55

I mean, that's part of why I said I

34:57

said Mcguffin. Right? Like, you know, she it's not

34:59

that she's in debt, but She doesn't

35:01

Well, her future partner is in debt, I think. Right? He

35:04

doesn't pay off. That's what's Right. He's

35:06

getting divorced. He doesn't have enough to

35:08

afford. Right. to

35:10

pay pay the divorce and then to set them up in -- Perfect. -- in

35:12

--

35:12

Yeah. -- for a life. Right? And

35:14

so that's why he won't merely suppose.

35:17

I always thought that was dubious. I don't think he

35:19

just I don't think he wants to get married. That's

35:21

what I always Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have I

35:24

used to ambitions about that guy too. I don't think he was telling the full story.

35:26

I know. She shows up with the buddy. Let's say

35:28

Norman doesn't kill her. He's like, wait a minute.

35:30

Wait a minute. There's something that you took me. You

35:32

took me

35:34

serious. I was just Oh. We thought we had a good thing

35:36

going. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. No. But

35:38

that's I think I mean, I think the

35:41

because we were trying to I'm

35:43

sure that there is AAA good example of And obviously, like, the big short

35:45

is about the financial recession. Yeah. But we he

35:47

he his name is stricken from the

35:49

book of life. for

35:51

us. So That's fair yes. That is

35:54

true. That's McCarrie. For the what's

35:56

the the asteroid film, whatever Yeah. I

35:58

know. What's I could say the name of the film? Well, now

36:00

it goes into because it

36:02

literalizes the problem and it shifts to what the

36:04

problem actually is. That's sort of our quick take on

36:06

that. The but

36:08

I think and there probably is a good like

36:10

a like a really good film about that that we're just not thinking

36:12

about. I mean, like but think

36:15

about a film What is

36:17

it? Like, I don't know, like, Shawshank

36:20

redemption? Yeah. No. Like like like

36:22

that, the it's

36:25

the the dead is not It's

36:27

not the part of it. Like, I mean, I think part

36:29

of part of what well, I think part of what

36:31

is so appealing about that film for a lot of

36:33

people is this, like, the

36:36

unlikely overcoming. Right? That's what that's what is, like, very

36:38

appealing about that movie. And so

36:40

even if

36:42

there was a

36:44

a debt central film. It's like what

36:46

you what happens is that

36:48

you that you wanna see, you get it or

36:50

or the Hollywood is invested in showing.

36:53

is the unlikely overcoming. And then as

36:55

Slabway often talks about relative to

36:57

other phenomena, you typically don't get the

37:00

there's no day after. and they're That's right.

37:02

No. That's right. You you know, like, there's no

37:04

When you go into debt again. Exactly. because

37:06

if you did that's why I was gonna be my point. because if

37:08

you did do the day after of the unlikely

37:10

overcoming debt, it's gonna be going into debt again. And I mean

37:13

and that would make a really provocative

37:16

point. Yeah. That'd be great capital, but

37:18

nobody's gonna make that. No

37:20

one's gonna Nobody's gonna make that. I I mean, it's interesting because I

37:22

was thinking as you're talking even

37:24

the even the great heist

37:26

films, none of them

37:28

are about the people who do performing the heist are struggling

37:30

with debt and they have to get out of it and they

37:32

perform the heist. Think about

37:34

point break. I

37:36

mean, like, they're living they're living this great, like, Bohemian

37:38

Surfer Life. It's not really about it's

37:40

they're they're not I mean, that's an that's

37:42

also, I think, a pretty good Robinhood It

37:45

is. It is. You know? Yeah. It's a film, but but

37:48

it's it's same same thing.

37:50

Yeah. There the people who are doing the

37:52

bank robbing I mean, but that's I and

37:54

that's kind of why that that film was really good. Is that because they don't need the money? Like,

37:56

I don't know. I think, like but but that's Well, but

37:58

I it's hard, like, an ocean's

38:02

Danny Ocean doesn't need the money. It's very hard to think of

38:04

a film where but

38:06

Refy maybe. Right? Like, the I

38:08

think that he's desperate for the money. Right.

38:12

And there's a but that's a French, you know,

38:14

that's a French film. That's a little it's

38:16

probably the best ice stone ever made. I the

38:18

problem most

38:20

likely. But But the other I

38:22

mean, most heist films, it's hard to think

38:24

of where it's like, there's a debt

38:26

and then there's the heist, and then you've

38:28

you're you get the day after. Right? Like, you

38:31

just don't you don't really get Well well,

38:33

but this so let's go I'm glad you you

38:35

brought us to to the high school. What is the problem

38:37

in the high school? Isn't it always just one

38:39

more job. Yeah. So it's so it's not a so

38:41

it it it

38:44

has the structure

38:46

that we're trying to draw out of debt as a concept

38:49

even though debt is content

38:51

is not in the film. So I think yeah.

38:53

I think that's true. It has the

38:55

it has the trying to draw out of of debt, but

38:57

it doesn't endow it with that

39:00

content. That's absolutely right because

39:02

you never you

39:04

never have performed enough heist to satisfy the

39:07

desired heist. Right? Right.

39:09

Right. I think it's which

39:11

is true of that too. Like, right when you

39:13

think you're out, I mean, we're the

39:15

the line from godfather too. Right? Just when

39:17

I get out they pull me back in. Like, that's the logic

39:19

of death. I think that's why that line speaks to people so

39:22

much. Yeah. because nothing I mean,

39:24

no one is in the

39:26

mafia. Right? Like, I mean, when I say no one, I mean,

39:28

like, the percentage is so small, it is

39:30

insignificant. Well, yeah. So, like, no one

39:32

hits seven hundred home runs

39:34

in base. It's the same. Right. Exactly. It's the same for the four percent. Same thing. Yeah.

39:36

It's the same thing. But and

39:38

yet, everyone loves to quote that line.

39:41

They love that, you just when I got out, they brought me

39:44

because I think everyone feels

39:46

that way and I think debt is one of

39:48

the main ways that they feel

39:50

it. This I I just I'm on the verge of

39:52

getting out and then they pull me

39:54

back in. Mhmm. I just got a

39:56

father three. I wanna be

39:58

very clear. Isn't it Godfather too? No. It does not. That is

39:59

the v line in

40:02

Godfather three because what

40:04

Michael tries to do is he tries

40:06

to get he tries to cleanse his

40:08

soul by going to be involved in the church, and he finds out they're just as corrupt as things

40:10

that he's been doing his

40:11

whole life.

40:14

Wow. Yeah.

40:14

Really? The idea

40:15

of that film is is great. I think.

40:17

I think it's I always thought

40:19

that that had the potential to be

40:21

the best of

40:24

the It's almost my favorite except

40:26

if Winona Ryder had been in

40:28

it. She got she had a breakdown. You know the

40:31

story? Like, she was gonna be

40:33

the like, so a couple of characters. Yeah. Yeah.

40:35

And and then, you know, maybe

40:38

maybe it's

40:38

the best one, maybe. Yeah.

40:41

as

40:41

I would potentially as the best idea. I

40:43

I think I think I'm I feel pretty

40:45

confident saying that. You

40:46

get the murder of the pope in the beginning. Right?

40:48

He knows that whole thing. And yeah.

40:50

Yeah. I I that's one could we didn't talk about

40:52

that as a conspiracy theory that we might

40:54

believe, but I might believe that one.

40:58

That's pretty funny. Yeah. That's

41:00

pretty good. But I think that, like,

41:02

the the line, like, you know, the Are

41:04

you sure it's from three? I can't I'm

41:07

tired. Yes. Okay. I'm gonna edit

41:09

out your the fact that you've got

41:11

this wrong later. No. You

41:14

don't have too. Do you know I'm

41:16

just kidding. I know it's the I've it's my error. It's gonna stay

41:18

in. No. No. It's fine. No. It's

41:22

Yes. Leave it in. I want you to listen. I will do it. Yeah.

41:24

And and remember, in watch 503I mean,

41:26

kind of a I have good a rewatch. Yes.

41:29

Although, I I don't I'm I'm a

41:31

anti mob movie kind of I know. I know.

41:33

I know. You know. Yeah. It's

41:35

my own meditation. but that's we'll talk I think we'll

41:37

probably talk about that when we get back to our Hollywood genres

41:39

and we do the gangster film.

41:42

Yeah. So -- Yeah.

41:44

-- topic topic for another

41:46

time. But that line, the Michael Corley owned line

41:48

from Godfather three,

41:50

is that what it you're

41:52

you're you're right about this appeal is that, like,

41:54

But the the thing is it's not as Michael is saying.

41:56

What Michael is saying is that,

41:58

like, he thought he

41:59

was out and then he gets

42:02

pulled back in as that's the negative.

42:04

But the what we're trying

42:06

to say is that's the appeal of debt.

42:08

Is that you always get pulled back

42:10

in, is that the the peel is that

42:12

you do. It's not Michael's

42:14

position where he wishes he was out. It's

42:16

like like you like, consciously yes, everyone

42:18

wishes that they're out of debt. I wish I was

42:20

I out of debt. That would be really great. I think about it a lot of the time. But

42:22

it but the but then, you know, you

42:24

think about what are the things you're gonna do

42:28

after you're out of debt, and they're all more debt

42:30

or just different debt. You know? It's

42:32

it's it's new debt in different places.

42:36

It's like it's in it it has that the dead has the

42:38

new car smell that I became intoxicated

42:40

with in two thousand seven, for

42:42

example. That's

42:44

really good. It's really good because I I think it's such a good point about the

42:46

difference between your conscious

42:48

wish and your unconscious

42:50

desire. Right? Like, you're Of

42:53

course, your conscious wishes to get out of everybody's -- Yeah. --

42:55

except the, you

42:56

know, the the

43:00

the manipulative

43:00

capitalist. Right? Like who he understands how

43:02

to use debt? Like Trump, he's very he's

43:04

very like, I'm I'm the king of debt.

43:07

Right? Like -- Yeah. -- so so except for people

43:09

like that, the conscious wishes to get out

43:11

of debt, but the unconscious

43:14

desire, I think this is a nice one

43:16

that shows the opposition is to remain

43:18

in debt, or to incur

43:20

a new debt. So I think that

43:22

that's pretty that's pretty good. I mean, the other thing IIII

43:24

think we'd have to talk about. I

43:25

mean, we've talked about it psychically,

43:27

how capitalism depends on debt, but I

43:29

think it also you

43:32

know,

43:32

Marx was even very clear about this that he he says

43:35

capitalism didn't invent credit, but it might

43:37

as well have. Right? Like, it's the

43:39

first system that

43:42

structurally relies on debt to sustain itself.

43:44

So it -- Mhmm. -- so capitalism

43:46

goes into a new area. What's

43:48

the first thing it does? It pedals commodities

43:51

And then, obviously, the people in the new

43:54

area have no money to buy the Kamad

43:56

because their money isn't doesn't

43:58

relate to the money that if they do have their own

43:59

foreign money, it doesn't translate to the

44:02

money of the of the incoming

44:04

capitalists. Mhmm. So what do you have to do?

44:05

You have to you have to go into debt to buy

44:07

the thing, and then you have to just like you had

44:10

to do with your job at have a

44:12

to pay back the debt that you had to buy

44:14

the commodity. And I think that

44:16

that, like,

44:18

that initial

44:20

surplus value, which then becomes profit, depends

44:23

upon it comes

44:26

from either

44:27

the external

44:28

space to capitalism. So capitalism moves into

44:30

some new space where it didn't

44:32

exist before, or it comes from

44:36

the future. And

44:36

I think that's a I think people

44:38

don't think about that enough when they think

44:41

about capitalism that You

44:43

often I think we're hearing this more and more that it if

44:46

capitalism isn't growing, it's dying.

44:48

If a certain enterprise isn't growing,

44:50

it's dying. But what they mean by

44:52

that is it has to

44:54

be growing because it has to be

44:56

getting its profit,

44:57

its surplus value from

45:00

the future. And

45:00

so it has to there has to be this promise of more that

45:02

then comes from the future. And

45:04

and and that's why debt is is

45:07

requisite for the accumulation of capital.

45:10

Right? There's there's without

45:12

that opening to

45:14

more in the future, where is the

45:16

more coming from? Right? because there's a like,

45:18

there what what is

45:19

present now is is

45:22

what they're right?

45:22

Like, that's the capital that there

45:25

is. So where do you get more? Well, you can

45:27

either get more from going to another

45:29

place and now the whole globe

45:31

is pretty much covered by

45:32

capitalist economy. So you

45:34

have to look to the future. Right? Like,

45:36

that's I mean, that's the

45:37

great line from Chinatown. You know,

45:40

like, when

45:42

when Jake Getty says to know a cross. He says, you know, I

45:44

just how much are you worth and know

45:46

a cross? Like, what? I don't even understand the question

45:50

a lot. And and Jake goes, well, what I don't

45:52

understand is, you know, how much better

45:54

could you eat? What could you buy that you don't

45:56

already have?

45:58

Right. and no across goes the future, mister gets the future.

46:00

Right? Like, that

46:02

idea of and that to me is

46:04

just about very

46:06

structure of capitalism and the role that

46:08

debt plays in opening

46:10

it up to the future. Yeah.

46:13

That's that's really really nice. I I know

46:15

I've mentioned this before. My my

46:17

my friend Amy Bong,

46:19

BAH NG, if anyone wants to look this up. She's written

46:21

a really nice book on for Duke

46:24

about financial speculation and

46:26

speculative fiction, and like the

46:29

draw the line that she draws like like sort

46:31

of exhaustively is that there there

46:34

isn't anything more real

46:36

about speculative futures markets than

46:38

there is about speculative

46:40

fiction about -- Oh, wow. -- yeah. Yeah.

46:42

It's it's really really I'm simplifying her argument

46:44

in what she does, but that's the that's

46:46

broad strokes when she gets into her book. Yeah. It's it's really good.

46:48

I like to teach from it from from time

46:51

to time when it's when it's relevant.

46:53

But but that I I

46:56

think the the idea what I wanna add to this is, like, something that

46:58

that we talked about before is that, like,

47:00

it isn't it's it's it's kind of

47:02

a two step thing. It's not just the it's not just the

47:06

future. It's that, but the future has to also

47:08

remain predictably and reliably

47:11

due to the

47:13

shape of the present. Yeah. You

47:15

know, because it can't it can't be too different. If it's too

47:17

different, then you can't

47:20

know that you you can't

47:22

not not know because you can't know whatever. You

47:24

can't speculate that the thing is gonna be whatever

47:26

thing is that you're speculating on is gonna be

47:28

worth anything. So it's this tie where

47:31

The future has to both

47:34

it has to adhere greater

47:36

value, but also remains stubbornly

47:40

the same. And you can see that with,

47:42

like, with, like, the

47:44

the lockdown portion of the pandemic

47:48

for the US.

47:50

In it was, what, like, three weeks people

47:52

weren't on cruise ships, and then that

47:55

whole industry needed needed to be going out. Yeah.

47:57

And then and and you know, I said this one we we

47:59

talked with with with Astra that, like and

48:01

then a a

48:04

boat gets sideways in the Suez Canal and people all over the world

48:06

can't get Amazon packages and that, like like

48:08

so the the thing for all these

48:10

markets and for these companies is that

48:14

tomorrow, next month, next

48:16

year, it needs to

48:18

look a lot like today,

48:20

but a little bit better. financially.

48:22

Yeah. That's what that's what they need. And I think that

48:25

and so one of the things that I

48:27

think makes a lot of living,

48:31

like, existentially very hard is that because that's what these that's what

48:33

these markets and these companies need, we

48:35

do feel locked into this relentless

48:37

present where, like, our

48:40

life looks really the same day to day, year

48:42

to year, and a little bit worse, not a

48:44

little bit better. Right. And so there's that

48:48

Again, there's that asymmetry is that,

48:50

like, of of how how does

48:52

how does debt operate

48:55

for us does debt operate, you know, for

48:57

them to just to make it an us

48:59

versus them thing. And it's

49:02

it's also that that also ties

49:04

into what does the future need to look

49:06

like as

49:06

well.

49:07

And all of them all

49:10

of

49:10

that tapestry.

49:11

I think it, like, it it it it comes

49:13

together to to create this thing where, like, you see, like, the

49:16

what the what the future the asymmetry and what

49:18

the future needs to look like for the capitalists, what the future

49:20

needs to look like. for, you

49:22

know, me and you.

49:24

And and, you know, any any

49:26

the ninety nine percent, right, to go back to

49:29

the occupy. yeah, movement slogan. Is

49:31

that that asymmetry is crucial

49:34

to how debt functions

49:36

and and as this as the

49:39

as the I don't know. You say the engine of the

49:41

of the economy? It has to be I think

49:43

it's absolutely the engine of the capitalist economy. Right?

49:45

Like, I think that's the

49:47

thing that doesn't which again makes it so striking that

49:49

it doesn't get

49:52

played out really in any

49:56

popular media. Like, there's no

49:58

there's no, like well, that would be exactly why.

49:59

Right? Wouldn't that be our Right. I know. I know.

50:02

just psychically too much. But -- Yeah.

50:04

-- it's too central. Right? Like, I think that that's the but

50:07

it's just I I find it fascinating

50:09

because the other thing

50:12

it it's like it's the stuff of a thriller. Right? Like,

50:14

it's not like I mean, there's a

50:16

lot like, okay. I understand

50:18

why more

50:20

romantic comedies that are about the time

50:22

before you get married. And when

50:24

you

50:25

first fall in love, then that

50:27

your entire the entire married course

50:29

of a married life. Right? Like that --

50:31

Mhmm. --

50:31

that that okay. Like, you could

50:34

you could maybe argue that, oh,

50:36

well, there's there's a lot of, like,

50:38

tension and and excitement within the married life. But but,

50:40

okay, it makes sense that, like, the

50:42

the real time of, like, tension and

50:46

and

50:46

excitement and thrill is before. Right? Like, that

50:48

makes sense. But the the dead thing, I

50:50

don't think it doesn't work that way because

50:53

there's tons of tension within debt. There's a ton of

50:56

like, you could there's tons of, like, you

50:58

could there there's a lot of great villains

51:01

in this world of debt. Right?

51:03

Yeah. Like, it's stocks great line.

51:05

We decided all the time that the villain makes

51:07

the picture. Well, you could

51:09

make a great film about debt and it's a wonderful life

51:12

to the perfect example. Right? Like,

51:14

mister Potter is a

51:16

phenomenal villain and he he's

51:18

a he creates he's like a

51:20

walking debt machine. I think

51:22

that's what he does. He creates

51:24

debt. You know what his best line

51:26

is? I just I'm sorry. Did the best time

51:28

he does? The best line is

51:30

after George Bailey wants to live again, and he's

51:32

just running around bed for fall saying,

51:34

Merry Christmas to everybody, and

51:38

he bashes on Potter's door

51:40

and he says, Merry Christmas, Bishop

51:42

Potter, and then

51:45

Barry Moore says, and a happy New Year to

51:47

YouTube in jail. And it's this little

51:50

pause. It's like you can hear I'm

51:53

I'm certain that that it was written

51:55

with a dash You can just hear it. You can just

51:58

hear the dash before he says

52:00

in jail. It's anyway,

52:02

that's the best lines. That's why he's sorry.

52:04

Please. You're right. No. But he's a great villain.

52:06

And -- Yeah. -- so it's again, it

52:08

just makes it so striking that they're

52:11

that

52:11

there were these films about debt

52:13

in the thirties and forties and then

52:15

and then kind

52:16

of just an

52:18

absence of them. Absolutely. Well, it seems it

52:20

will so this is this is interesting. Because, I

52:22

mean, you would what would be the obvious answer?

52:24

Is the great depression? is --

52:27

Yeah. -- would would be would be and it's almost like that

52:29

was like, I

52:30

find this really I find this really interesting

52:32

in media. I'm writing a little little piece

52:34

on might maybe come up in

52:36

some months. But, like, I think

52:38

he would say that the great depression was

52:40

just it touched too many people for

52:43

it to be ignored. even, like, even it

52:45

not being talked about directly, but just like

52:47

the ideas of of debt and

52:50

and being, you know, and and not

52:52

having enough really

52:54

being like, you know, living day to day.

52:56

And I I think that

52:58

that that's probably true, but I'm not I

53:00

don't know that that I would be satisfied complete

53:03

with that answer. because there is and I

53:05

feel pretty confident saying this, you are not

53:07

gonna see the pandemic in

53:10

many movies. in many TV

53:12

shows. It's just No. It's amazing. I know.

53:14

It's not gonna happen. And that happened to

53:16

the whole world. That happened to everybody. Right.

53:18

So I

53:20

think it's People are bored by it immediately. I think they just don't.

53:22

Yeah. because you wanna you would

53:24

wanna say it, like, I mean, what what's a

53:26

more universal

53:28

thing -- Right. -- than the

53:30

pandemic. And the but it but it

53:32

hasn't it it what what

53:35

has I it is completely almost

53:37

completely foreclosed in in

53:40

media and to, like It's

53:42

amazing. Right? Right. It is. Yeah.

53:44

Like, I there's really there are some exceptions,

53:46

like, the, like, the most recent season of

53:48

shameless is repeatedly. It is, like, it's

53:50

just independent, like, people they're wearing

53:52

masks. Like, they

53:54

they they went into it. And then another

53:56

one is the the most recent

53:58

season of it's always sunny in Philadelphia is

54:00

very much invested in different ways. But but these are

54:02

comedies. I think that might bring dark comedies

54:05

as well. So maybe there there's something

54:07

in there. But but yeah,

54:09

I I think because your your your point was just that,

54:11

like, in thirties and forties, this is present, and then

54:13

it just it seems to have

54:16

evaporated. And

54:18

I don't No.

54:20

I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't think I

54:22

know exactly what to what to do with that. I don't

54:24

know that that I have. Like I mean, like like

54:26

it's like Well, nicer. one

54:29

idea maybe it's not even psychic. One idea is, like, you know, the

54:31

writers for those films were Marxist.

54:33

I mean, so

54:36

Yeah. Well, in TransoML, didn't he write it down? Yeah. TransoML wrote a wonderful life.

54:39

Right? So, you know, I mean,

54:41

Capa was a was a

54:44

conservative, but

54:45

a little more open to certain ideas. And

54:48

and and people were pissed. I

54:50

mean, Republicans in the in the

54:52

country conservatives

54:54

were pissed. So it's not it's not AII

54:56

think it's you know, there are not that

54:58

many Marxist writers at Hollywood Eddie. Well,

55:00

I mean, I don't mean to be

55:02

totally reductive, but I think that there is something to that

55:05

and and that there, you know, that I

55:07

don't know. There's just that like that. It's just

55:09

not in it's not but

55:12

I think you're right. Like the the centrality

55:14

of a concern does not

55:16

mean it's gonna manifest itself

55:20

in in popular art forms -- Yeah. -- anyway. I

55:22

think it almost could be the

55:24

reverse. Like, something -- Mhmm. -- is so central

55:26

for people. It never

55:28

manifests itself. Yeah. It's

55:30

interesting. I mean, it it it's not the it

55:32

isn't the case that you don't see

55:34

films and TV shows where where

55:36

characters aren't financially struggling. It's just that

55:38

it is always in that, like, that overcoming

55:41

sort of art. Right. Right.

55:43

And to be to be mired

55:45

in it is not I

55:47

mean, that I

55:48

mean, I don't know I think I

55:50

don't know what the narrative trajectory is, but you

55:53

it would have to be about I don't

55:55

know commenting on that situation as such, I suppose. Right. Or,

55:57

you know, I I mean, the the

56:00

in the novel, of course, this is not

56:02

true. Like,

56:04

Yeah. There there's plenty of novels that are about about that.

56:06

And, I mean, Dickens is probably the great

56:08

dead novels. Yeah. Right? Maybe that

56:10

has to do a time.

56:14

Yeah. Maybe that's maybe that's why in

56:16

time the the it was your was

56:18

your film that and it it's about

56:20

debt, but it changes it to

56:22

be about ten thousand flying. Right. It has to shift the turf

56:24

really in a way. Yeah.

56:26

I don't I mean, it's interesting because

56:28

even the film's films

56:31

about the the crash of

56:33

two thousand and eight that came out from Hollywood.

56:35

There's this one called Larry

56:37

Crown. It's with Tom Hanks and Julia these are neither of

56:39

them are good. Julia Roberts and and

56:42

Tom Hanks, and and

56:44

he did he loses job

56:46

and he undergoes retraining and then

56:48

that leads him to good jobs. So

56:50

just I've always thought this training

56:52

thing was such a funny.

56:54

Like, okay. there's not enough jobs offered, but you're under gonna go

56:56

under go retraining, and then you're gonna

56:58

get a job. That does I never understood that. I

57:00

mean, obviously,

57:02

people need training to

57:04

do whatever. But, like,

57:06

that it's such a it's such a

57:08

non structural way

57:10

to understand how capitalism works.

57:13

Right? Well, can we talk about this?

57:15

Like, because you just brought up the recession? I mean,

57:17

you're you're gonna mention another phone, but, like, you're

57:20

It's called in the company of

57:22

men or company man or something. Okay. Oh, it's with

57:24

Ben Affleck and

57:26

maybe Tommy Lee Jen or something, but it it's

57:28

also bad. It's also about, like,

57:32

not it doesn't really take the problem of

57:34

debt seriously. Well, or the problem of

57:36

recession because isn't your point that under

57:38

capitalism, a recession is the result of

57:40

too much. too

57:41

much result of excess. Too much product. Right. Right.

57:43

And

57:43

like that's just like this incredible

57:45

thing that you you shouldn't you wouldn't think,

57:47

but but is Right? How could that

57:49

Right? having too much? How could having an

57:52

excess be? But I think it's

57:54

interesting because It's

57:56

just

57:56

like the way

57:58

in which, obviously, you

57:59

can die from not

58:00

eating too much, but you can also die

58:03

from eating to, you know, from

58:05

not eating enough, but you can also die for

58:07

eating too much. Capitalism doesn't

58:09

typically die for or or

58:11

have a crisis by not having

58:13

enough, but by by this over over

58:15

stuffing itself. And I think it's

58:16

interesting to mister Khrisso. mean,

58:19

that's correct. Yeah. That's

58:22

correct. It's interesting

58:24

because that the role that debt plays

58:26

in that is that it that

58:29

debt fuels this hyper

58:31

over production of the

58:34

commodity. And I mean, that allows

58:36

companies to build new

58:38

factories if they're

58:40

making anything to hire more people. Do and and

58:42

then they can they can expand

58:44

and then they can

58:46

create more of the

58:48

commodity that they're selling? And then the question is,

58:50

is there going to be

58:52

enough

58:52

– is the market going to

58:54

be able to absorb that excess.

58:56

And if the answer is no,

58:58

then there's a, you know, on a large scale,

59:00

then there's a, then

59:02

there's a recession. And so it's

59:04

it's interesting the role that debt like, the control over

59:06

debt is the is

59:08

really the mechanism by which the

59:11

economy tries to

59:14

try by by which the Federal Reserve

59:16

tries to keep the economy

59:19

between hyperinflation and

59:21

too much unemployment. Right?

59:24

Like, that's that's basically the wager. And it's

59:26

all accomplished through the

59:28

control of debt. So I think

59:31

And they almost think it's hard to

59:33

really overestimate the role that debt plays

59:35

in structuring our everyday lives, which again comes

59:37

back to this an incredible question of why

59:39

debt isn't central to what

59:42

we talk about and think about

59:44

artistically all

59:46

the time. Yeah.

59:48

It's doesn't it isn't it just one of those

59:50

things? I don't know. I I think it's it's one

59:52

of those things that you think is like, well, there's no

59:54

there there. Like, what else are you gonna say?

59:56

like there's debt. But I think that like, because maybe it's just

59:59

so

59:59

IIII don't know. This I

1:00:01

think this might be my answer

1:00:03

is that, like, it is so present. It is so

1:00:05

banal and so regular. And I also think it's sometimes

1:00:08

personal. It's like a little embarrassing. Like, I

1:00:10

mean, when I was

1:00:12

telling that my little story. I felt a little embarrassed. Like, I

1:00:14

shouldn't have I shouldn't have bought the car. Like, you're filled

1:00:16

with like a guilt.

1:00:18

Well, right. I that's an interesting thing. Right?

1:00:20

The way

1:00:22

in which guilt like, debt is is attached to

1:00:24

guilt. Right? Which -- Yeah. -- okay. Like,

1:00:26

we know something about superego. Right?

1:00:28

The guilt doesn't make

1:00:30

you not

1:00:32

do something. It makes you do it more. Right? Like,

1:00:34

the more you feel guilty about something,

1:00:36

the more you indulge in it, not

1:00:39

the less that you do. Right? So I think that's a

1:00:41

really important thing about the

1:00:44

psychic power of debt over us. That debt

1:00:46

makes us feel guilty about being

1:00:48

in debt. and

1:00:51

and and and it

1:00:53

and that makes us tied to our

1:00:55

debt even more, I think, or or to

1:00:57

our status as indebted. So I

1:00:59

think that's really and that's one of the ways

1:01:01

it functions psychically, and that's one

1:01:04

of the ways that capital takes advantage

1:01:06

of debt. Right? Like, it it it

1:01:08

gets people to feel bad

1:01:10

about being indebted while then

1:01:12

constantly seducing them and and

1:01:14

not just

1:01:16

seducing them, requiring them to be in debt. Right? Like, you

1:01:18

it is impossible unless you

1:01:20

have money from the past,

1:01:24

you cannot be a capital subject

1:01:26

that is free of debt just because

1:01:28

of the way they pay. Right? Like, I

1:01:31

was saying this to you, before that

1:01:33

that that they don't you know nobody pays a

1:01:35

job. You either get paid at the end

1:01:37

of the week, but usually you

1:01:39

get paid at the end of the subsequent week. Right?

1:01:41

Like, so you've right? You've here at

1:01:43

UVM, we get paid at the end of the every

1:01:45

two weeks, but for not for the two weeks we've

1:01:48

just worked. Right? So -- Right. --

1:01:50

it's not you're never even paid on but, like, why aren't you

1:01:52

paid? Like, I've worked an hour. I get paid.

1:01:54

Like, let's see the money right now.

1:01:57

k. Why why should I trust you to give me

1:01:59

the money? And why should I loan you

1:02:01

my money? Well, I mean, I've already worked

1:02:04

for it. I've earned it. Why should I loan

1:02:06

it to you? up, you know,

1:02:08

until but, you know, Michael's jobs are that's

1:02:10

getting paid under the table. That's what getting paid

1:02:12

under the table is. You're actually paid on

1:02:14

time. Yeah. I know it's fascinating. So it has to be out of the system. Has

1:02:16

to be out of the system. Right? I used

1:02:18

to work at when I was in college,

1:02:20

I used to work sometimes

1:02:23

in the summer at a temporary employment And one of the

1:02:25

ways the guy would try to sit, like, sometimes

1:02:27

I'd be like, I just worked at night thing, and

1:02:29

I doubt it just went tired,

1:02:32

obviously. Mhmm. And I didn't he's like and the

1:02:34

guy would call me to go cash job. Cash

1:02:36

job. And

1:02:36

so he just says two

1:02:38

words, I'd go, alright. I'll go do it.

1:02:41

So because I knew for the very

1:02:43

thing that you said, I knew that I

1:02:45

would be getting paid right on time.

1:02:47

And that that was that was

1:02:49

you know, III think you're right. Like, it's

1:02:51

only under the table, like a

1:02:53

babysitter or whatever or whatever

1:02:55

kind

1:02:55

of day labor. like, that's the

1:02:57

only time you get paid on time. And I

1:02:59

think that that's one of the

1:03:02

secret ways in which

1:03:04

the capitalist is in debt

1:03:06

to the worker, but it's never even called

1:03:08

a debt. Right? Like, it's just it's

1:03:10

instead it forces the worker to be

1:03:12

in debt. Like, you gotta go in

1:03:14

debt to get your apartment because the capitalist

1:03:16

isn't paying you on time so that

1:03:18

you have a place to live. Right?

1:03:20

Like, I think it works. III think that's a really

1:03:23

crucial aspect of the

1:03:25

way that debt functions within Like,

1:03:27

all these psychic things are really important, but I

1:03:29

think that that's one of the ways in

1:03:31

which capitalism really takes advantage

1:03:34

of of of of debt and the way that

1:03:36

it can absolutely

1:03:36

forced that upon you. You know, I

1:03:38

think that I think someone could make a good movie

1:03:40

about this. I think because you identified it because

1:03:43

we got to this under the

1:03:46

table thing. you just you have

1:03:48

the juxtaposition of someone as a babysitter, working as a babysitter and then somebody going

1:03:50

to do, like, a first job.

1:03:53

after -- Right. -- college or you know what? And then

1:03:56

you have that like,

1:03:58

why was

1:03:58

that I don't

1:04:00

know what the you know, maybe this

1:04:02

is the thing too is that, like, the the horizon,

1:04:04

the the my imagination

1:04:06

is that, like, well, capitalism

1:04:08

can't be the villain. and the film has

1:04:11

to be a person. And it's like, no. Of course, it can be the villain. It's just not like that,

1:04:13

you know It's never is. Right? It never

1:04:15

is. Yeah. I can't think I mean, that

1:04:17

they're we're gonna we're gonna it'll

1:04:20

be till the cows come home that we can think

1:04:22

of a I mean, hell

1:04:24

or high water, slight, we've talked

1:04:26

that film before, and slightly -- Yeah.

1:04:28

-- slightly capitalized. Mhmm. It's the bank. Yeah.

1:04:30

You know? It does. It's the bank. It's

1:04:32

the bank, but it's faceless. Yeah. It's pretty

1:04:34

it's pretty interesting along those lines, I think, because it does it

1:04:37

does try to keep capitalism as the

1:04:39

villain. But it's the it's

1:04:42

these mean, the guy even says, I hope you I hope

1:04:44

you screw over these banks by paying them

1:04:46

with what you stole from them. That's the

1:04:48

Texas way.

1:04:50

And I thought -- Right. -- I don't think that's the Texas way. I think the

1:04:52

Texas way is these people are shooting them when

1:04:54

they're coming out of the bank, actually. Yes.

1:04:57

That would be the Yeah. That's If that was the Texas

1:04:59

way, we'd be a much healthier

1:05:01

country. Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. That'd be

1:05:03

we'd be a far different place. It's more

1:05:06

like it it plays out more like we've

1:05:08

said before about,

1:05:10

oh my god, Daniel

1:05:13

Plainview. Oh, there will be

1:05:15

blood. It's more of a Yeah. It's it's more of that all

1:05:17

the sins of capitalism. They get concretized

1:05:19

in one person. So you like, wolf

1:05:21

of Wall Street or Wall Like, it's like

1:05:23

it's one. Okay. You just named two of my least

1:05:26

favorite all time films. For

1:05:28

for exactly that reason. Right? Aren't

1:05:30

they the

1:05:32

most mystifying films imaginable. Right? Like the and what I

1:05:34

hate about it is that they

1:05:36

attract certain

1:05:38

okay.

1:05:39

don't email me and tell me they're really great. I just don't

1:05:41

want to hear it. So they attract

1:05:43

a certain kind of

1:05:46

like anti Okay.

1:05:46

I'm totally for the anti capitalist, like and and they

1:05:49

they see these films. They're like, look

1:05:51

how negatively the capitalist is being

1:05:53

portrayed. I love it. But,

1:05:55

of course, it's exactly the problem

1:05:58

because the capitalism has been

1:06:00

completely personified in a

1:06:02

single bad individual.

1:06:04

Yes. Right? a psychotic individual. Yes. So then you

1:06:06

can say, like, oh, the problem is

1:06:08

in capitalism. The problem is

1:06:10

Jordan Bell Ford or

1:06:12

whatever Daniel playbook, whatever his name is.

1:06:14

Right? I think that that I think that yeah.

1:06:16

Those films I mean, there will be

1:06:18

blood to me as the worst because it took

1:06:20

a it took a novel which is

1:06:23

about unionization and then

1:06:25

stripped all that part out. and

1:06:27

then, like, created the

1:06:30

the the film that that completely formed a

1:06:32

misleading image of capitalism. So -- Yeah.

1:06:34

-- you know, No. I think that's a die that that's

1:06:37

a perfectly encapsulated. And, I

1:06:40

mean, also, you know,

1:06:42

you you give this long title and you

1:06:45

oil with an exclamation point, like a

1:06:47

musical. That should be a musical, actually. It should

1:06:49

be a musical. I'm musical about

1:06:51

unionization. I would pay

1:06:54

I'd pay hamilton

1:06:56

bucks to see that. That's an

1:06:58

interesting question too. Right? Like,

1:07:01

using why isn't Like, every

1:07:02

musical is

1:07:03

really about unionization. But why isn't

1:07:06

there a really explicit

1:07:08

film about

1:07:10

unionization? Like, there there's a little bit, like, you know, these gold

1:07:12

diggers of nineteen thirty five, like,

1:07:14

basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's the pretty great,

1:07:16

and they're kind of about that. But

1:07:19

that feels kind of about that, but not

1:07:22

really. I mean, it's I mean,

1:07:24

the musical is really all about the

1:07:26

about the coming together of

1:07:28

the collective. I think. You know, I I hate to do this because

1:07:30

it's a it's an

1:07:32

entire genre of media that you

1:07:34

don't have any familiarity with, but

1:07:36

this happens

1:07:38

all the time in JRPGs, Japanese

1:07:40

role playing games. I've mentioned

1:07:42

this to you before. It's like

1:07:45

like, your final fantasy to

1:07:47

Dragon quest tales of series. Like,

1:07:49

it is almost

1:07:52

always a collective

1:07:54

forms. And the the for

1:07:56

people who are never gonna play a game or have

1:07:58

never played video games. So I'm gonna this is

1:08:01

what people and I what

1:08:03

I think confirms their radicality is that as

1:08:05

a genre, this gets really

1:08:07

easily dismissed by people as like

1:08:09

comfort food. It just always does the

1:08:11

same thing. And one of the sort of, like, the

1:08:13

memes about the JRPG, and this is it is

1:08:16

actually true. is that in

1:08:18

the beginning of the game, you're like gathering five items for birthday

1:08:21

cake for your

1:08:24

best friend. And then at the end

1:08:26

of the game, you and your new best friends, you go and kill God. That's

1:08:28

but that is what happens and like

1:08:30

all of them. Is that like there's

1:08:35

there's some, like

1:08:37

like, world damaging or

1:08:39

world ending terror and

1:08:41

you and a group of people form a collective to not you're

1:08:43

you're not just a you you're

1:08:45

not just destroying the threat,

1:08:47

but you are fundamentally

1:08:51

reorienting the world as such. Wow. And it

1:08:53

happens pretty early time. It happens all the times in

1:08:55

these games. Like, I one of them

1:08:57

I I told you about tells of the superior is probably one of my

1:09:00

favorites because the solution to saving the world in the I'm

1:09:02

not gonna get into the details of it, but the

1:09:04

solutions to saving the world in the

1:09:06

end is to make it more vulnerable.

1:09:08

which I think is a incredibly great. It's a great idea. I don't know

1:09:10

that I've ever seen that in film. You know? Yeah. I don't I can't think

1:09:13

of one. The other thing I

1:09:15

would say is that that It's

1:09:18

interesting, isn't it how debt

1:09:21

in reality ties

1:09:24

us together like,

1:09:25

we're all indebted and all I'm indebted to the other person, so

1:09:27

I have a link to them -- Mhmm. -- or indebted to the even

1:09:31

the bank. Mhmm.

1:09:32

But psychically, it isolates

1:09:34

us. Yes. And I think that's really yeah. It's fascinating. Right?

1:09:36

Like, you feel when

1:09:38

you feel and when you feel

1:09:41

the burden of debt. You feel like I'm

1:09:43

all alone here, which is why it's a wonderful life is such

1:09:46

a radical thing because he points out like your monies here in

1:09:48

his you

1:09:50

know, you go ahead and do it. I'm not gonna do

1:09:52

it. I'm not gonna do it too

1:09:54

many times, but everybody's not here. everybody's

1:09:58

in Bill's house, and Joe he doesn't

1:10:00

even say that. That's just from,

1:10:02

I think, the Simpsons. Everybody's in Bill's

1:10:04

house, and Joe's, etcetera. Yeah.

1:10:06

Yeah. Yeah. So but that's is it

1:10:08

a gray I mean, that's the point

1:10:10

that it's a connective thing. But when

1:10:12

you experience yourself psychically in

1:10:14

debt and the burden of debt, weighing

1:10:16

on, you do I declare bankruptcy? How do I get out of

1:10:18

it? You you feel like you're all alone. So I think that's and when

1:10:20

you get the obviously, when

1:10:23

you get the letter from the

1:10:25

bank or when you get the call from

1:10:27

the credit company, you feel all alone. So I think that that's at least

1:10:29

I've always felt all alone

1:10:31

in this situation. Right?

1:10:33

Like, I feel like, oh my god. Who can I turn to? My parents don't have any money. I don't

1:10:35

have any money. What am I gonna do? Right?

1:10:38

So I think that

1:10:40

that that

1:10:41

I think that that's really an important aspect of

1:10:43

how it functions. And I think that's why these collective

1:10:46

I really like that

1:10:49

Dashville told me my son, Dashville told me about that. He loves those games too. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

1:10:51

For that reason, like, thinks there there and

1:10:54

there's something inherently anti cap

1:10:58

list about that -- Mhmm. -- game because it so emphasizes

1:11:00

the the formation of the collective

1:11:02

and then the structural change that

1:11:05

ensues. Yeah. And not to put

1:11:07

not to put to find a point on it, but debt makes us a

1:11:10

collective,

1:11:11

doesn't it? Right.

1:11:12

right I

1:11:13

think it does. I think it does. I

1:11:15

think that has to be the last line. So Yeah. Yeah. So what's

1:11:18

the lesson, Ryan? I don't know.

1:11:18

I think the lesson is in time or for

1:11:23

if you're if you play video games to

1:11:25

play AJRPG and think about

1:11:27

think about the trajectory of

1:11:30

getting together unlikely band of

1:11:32

usually outcasts to together to

1:11:34

kill God. So that's that's what

1:11:37

happens. That's the lesson. Okay.

1:11:39

Over and out, Ryan. over

1:11:44

and outside.