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0:45

Hello and welcome back, if you're coming back. And hello

0:47

and welcome, if it's your first time joining us on

0:49

Why Would You Tell Me That? A podcast

0:51

hosted by me, Dave Moore, and him,

0:54

Neil Delamere, where

0:57

each week, one of us does some research, finds an amazing story, gets an expert,

1:00

brings it to life, and then we go back and forth and

1:02

we talk about it. And we're going to talk about

1:05

it. And we're going to talk about it. And we're going to talk about

1:07

it. And we're going to talk about it. And

1:09

we're going to talk about it. And we're going to talk about it. brings

1:13

the expert along and then wows

1:15

the other, and hopefully you as well, with some incredible

1:18

claim,

1:19

fact, story, adventure,

1:22

whatever it is. And I can kind of

1:24

kick back and relax a little bit now because this is Neil Delamere's

1:26

episode. He's here to tell us what it's all about.

1:28

Before he does that, I should tell you that we are proudly

1:30

part of the A-Cast Creator Network.

1:33

And thanks to the lads for all their support for us. But Neil,

1:35

what have you got? Oh Dave, oh,

1:38

you're going to like this. You and

1:40

everybody you know who likes to partake of a

1:42

little tipple at Christmas, particularly at Christmas, called

1:45

Baileys. We will chat to

1:47

the South African man, you

1:49

heard it here, South African, not

1:51

Irish, who invented Baileys. You

1:54

see, what? Like,

1:56

Baileys strikes me as an ancient thing.

1:58

I don't even know why. there's someone who invented

2:01

it and first of all, first of all, why someone

2:03

invented it is not just always a thing like

2:05

beer. And second of all, how

2:08

is he alive? It's not invented like in 11

2:10

AD. You're

2:13

making it sound like some sort of, if

2:15

some very gullible tourist listens

2:18

to this and, Oh, it was, Bailis

2:21

was first handed down by the fairies.

2:24

It is mixed with the Jew from a

2:26

Kramlich and a Dalman, started

2:29

by a badger and various different

2:31

infusions. Is

2:34

Kramlich a real word? Kramlich is

2:36

a real word. I think it's so sort of demand

2:38

that somebody listens to this podcast either called

2:41

either their next dog, goldfish

2:43

or child Kramlich. I've

2:46

got to look it up. I want to meet

2:48

Kramlich Ohannelin.

2:50

I demand Kramlich. I

2:55

mean Kramlich Ohannelin, he wasn't

2:57

the most mobile of junior footballers, but

2:59

my God, under a high drop and ball

3:01

into the small parallelogram when he stood

3:03

just outside. Oh my God. What

3:06

a superstar Kramlich was. And

3:09

his brother, Passagegrave, he

3:13

was so mad. There was Kramlich,

3:15

Passagegrave was the middle one, Dalman was

3:17

the girl and. Kranog

3:20

or Boekala. Kranog, oh

3:23

God. She was very hard to get. That's

3:26

mainly because she lived in the middle of a lake. There

3:30

was a literal molt around Kranog, a

3:33

lovely woman. Your

3:35

history teacher from primary school

3:37

struck the start of secondary school. It would be

3:39

delighted if we could remember those. For any international

3:42

listener, go and look up all the shit we just

3:44

talked about. Best looks balanced I guess. A

3:47

Kramlich is a megalithic construction

3:49

made of large stone blocks. What a legend.

3:51

I did not know. You are a legend. I

3:53

did not have a clue. No, no. Anyway,

3:56

the point is Bailey's invented by David

3:58

Luckman and it drew. No,

4:00

David Luckman and his business

4:02

partner and another guy was involved as well. David

4:05

is very keen to give the credit

4:08

all around, but let's listen to what he has to say because... Oh,

4:10

I can't wait. You're going to agree that he was

4:13

absolutely massively important

4:15

to the entire process and I'm claiming him as going to invent

4:17

it. So this week, in part

4:19

one, I thought we'd go food and drink. Big

4:21

facts. Do my favourite things. Before

4:25

we get to them, I want to mention something that we

4:27

should have done a couple of weeks ago. I found out something

4:30

that should have stumped Jose

4:32

Monkey. So if anybody missed us, a couple of weeks ago

4:34

we had Jose Monkey on and people

4:36

sent Jose videos that they have filmed

4:38

and they say, find me Jose Monkey and he

4:40

locates where they shot the video using all sorts

4:43

of clever logic and internet tools and

4:45

chicanery and witchcraft and all the rest, right? I

4:48

should have sent him a picture of you

4:50

or me in front of Rose Cottage. Rose

4:54

Cottage. Rose Cottage. It is

4:56

a quintessential Cotswolds

4:58

beautiful stone cottage, right?

5:01

And the second you see this, you think the bucolic,

5:04

rolling English countryside

5:06

and hills and people in tweed look conservative.

5:08

I was just about to say then, if it is so

5:10

quintessentially Cotswolds, you're not just giving

5:13

Jose the answer. Well, you

5:15

are when you aren't because it's made out

5:17

of the local stone that has all the local

5:20

features of Cotswolds architecture.

5:23

And it was, and that is the clue

5:25

here in the village of Chagworth.

5:27

Now it is in Michigan. Oh,

5:31

like stone by stone job. Stone

5:33

by stone, my friend. Oh, man,

5:36

that's good. Henry Ford moved

5:38

it. Stop it, Henry Ford.

5:41

Yeah, all the way across the Atlantic Ocean and he

5:43

had to hire the best stone

5:46

skimmers in all of the

5:48

world. To

5:50

me it's all the... Plus the

5:52

extra bits to me. No,

5:55

it's a very flat cottage.

6:00

He was, all the stones were very flat, like

6:02

flint. That's how he got across the Atlantic.

6:05

That's phenomenal. Like Henry Ford, like we've

6:07

had varying reports on that fella. Like

6:09

by and large, I think we can assume he was,

6:11

he wasn't the greatest human that's ever lived. However,

6:14

he

6:14

did some weird

6:16

and kind of

6:17

vaguely wonderful things alongside

6:20

some of the darker stuff. But like, like you remember,

6:22

we told you about Ford Landia. I told you that,

6:25

but we're talking about the rubber heist

6:26

back in, I think it was

6:28

a season four. Yeah. So

6:31

he tried to get rubber from the

6:34

plantations and he designed

6:36

a town built exclusively around

6:39

this. And one

6:41

of the things he banned, he liked banning things.

6:43

One of the things he banned for the

6:45

Brazilian workers was football. And

6:47

the lads just went, mate, this just isn't happening.

6:50

And they just tore the place that's under because

6:52

of the Romania. He was mad into square

6:54

dancing as well, wasn't he? Yeah. But he

6:56

loved the cottowals, right? So this is the background to

6:59

it from going on holidays there. And he knew the

7:01

world was changing. Thanks in large part

7:03

to his own model, he creationist

7:05

engine. So he wanted to preserve certain things, right? Like

7:08

Edison's labs and the Wright brothers shop,

7:10

right? So he got his English agent

7:13

to source a house. The aforementioned Rose

7:15

cottage. Rose cottage. Okay. Bought it for about 500 pounds.

7:18

I've seen differing reports, 500 pounds. I've

7:21

seen $5,000 for the land and the house, right?

7:25

And the agent was told to drive around and source

7:28

a cottage with as many of those original

7:30

features as possible. So he would go to these and

7:32

the cottowals, the villages, particularly in

7:34

those days, quite distant from one another. So it took

7:37

a long time to do this. Found this cottage.

7:40

It has native limestone. That's what it's constructed from.

7:42

It has a nice doorway. It has mullions

7:44

to the windows and aged mellowed drip

7:47

stones. Oh my God. The back to them. I

7:49

trusted that you were

7:51

devoted enough to this podcast

7:54

that you spent so long researching that

7:56

you know, these words off my heart, but please

7:58

tell me that you're managing somehow.

7:59

read these when you're talking to me because that the

8:02

way you described mullions there was too

8:05

involved. I've just watched too much

8:07

Dermot Bannon and Room to Improve and

8:10

oh my god I'm a sucker for some tasty mullions.

8:13

Once someone puts a mullion onto the

8:15

barbecue, a pork

8:17

mullion. Lovely bit

8:19

of honey glaze on the outside of it. Delicious.

8:22

Now he said I want this I want this

8:24

and I want this to be brought to Michigan.

8:27

Now you could argue here,

8:29

I don't know how you feel about this, but he wanted

8:31

other kind of classic Cotswold architecture

8:34

stuff put on it. So he also added

8:36

features like a porch which

8:39

is a copy of another one. Or which wouldn't have been

8:41

on the rose cottage initially. No, on

8:43

a dormer window, on a bay window and a beehive

8:45

oven. That would be on other Cotswolds

8:48

houses. Okay okay okay. Maybe possibly

8:50

of different classes if you know what I mean.

8:53

But they're all examples of Cotswold architecture

8:55

I suppose. Keystones were numbered.

8:58

Stones

8:58

were packed into 506

9:01

sacks. Wow. Doors,

9:03

windows, staircases, beams packed

9:06

into a further 211 crates. He even brought

9:10

sheep

9:11

to add to this kind of storybook

9:14

cottage view.

9:16

Hang on, you mean live sheep? Live

9:18

sheep, yes. It's a famous. He wasn't happy

9:20

with Michigan sheep. He had to bring Cotswoldian

9:22

sheep. Cotswold sheep, it's a particular

9:25

breed there. Which is one of the

9:27

reasons that Cotswolds were so rich for so

9:29

many years from the middle ages onwards because

9:32

it was all based on wool. And

9:35

he got all this stuff. Two Michigan

9:37

took 67 railway wagons

9:40

to transport almost 500 tons of material from the

9:44

vast cross station of Brentford. He

9:46

was so rich! Yeah, I mean this

9:48

is just bonkersness. He

9:51

was just so rich and then he got forward

9:53

workers from the factories, they supplied the labor.

9:56

He got local stone misses from

9:58

the Cotswolds. Oh,

10:00

he put those guys over. Yeah, William

10:03

Ratliff and they were, you

10:05

know, you lads, you know what you're doing, put this back

10:07

together. You know when you do anything for Mikey

10:10

and there's two or three screws left over? Five

10:14

hundred and six sacks. And apparently

10:16

did he have stuff left over and were like, oh, I don't know what

10:18

to put. Yeah, they're trying to stuff that

10:20

into your back pocket as you walk out of it after a day.

10:23

Yeah, no, no, no, it's all there now, yeah. Yeah,

10:25

it's like that bit in, what is it, The Great Escape,

10:28

where they have to put the clay down the trousers. Short-shunk

10:30

webbing. No, it's definitely

10:33

The Great Escape. Is that the short-shunk redemption as well? Short-shunk

10:35

redemption is definitely where I know it from. Oh, okay.

10:37

He shakes it down his boots,

10:39

yeah. There's stone maces doing the same

10:42

thing in both of those films. And then the retreat

10:44

at the old stone maces, they made a goofy bob from

10:46

it, by the way. They were treated to a

10:48

little Niagara Falls sojourn before they

10:50

went home. That sounds

10:53

mildly threatening. You're making

10:55

that sound like a mob hit. And

10:57

before they went home, so there was no evidence,

10:59

they were treated to a Niagara

11:02

Falls sojourn. Basically

11:05

they're wrapped up and thrown over the edge. They

11:07

contacted the Irish man, who was

11:09

a house cleaner, who cleaned

11:11

the newly built house. And you make

11:14

it sound like, you know when there's a, and he

11:16

was the greatest pharaoh that Egypt

11:18

ever had. His mind was so beautiful, he

11:20

blinded the arksect. No, it's

11:22

not fast in this story. That's what it sounded

11:24

like. Yes, and that's where the sacks went

11:26

missing. Here lads, there's your flotation

11:29

device, or not the Niagara

11:31

River. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You

11:33

can highlight. That's Walt's tone dragging them

11:35

down. Yeah, no, it

11:38

is still visited by millions and millions of people

11:40

in Michigan. So

11:42

let's get back to food and drink because we're talking about Bailey's. I

11:46

was getting an x-ray in the orthodontist

11:48

the other day, Dave. The

11:51

only non-teenage girl in the dentist. That

11:53

made me feel very manly, let me tell you. And

11:57

you see, I always think Americans and Irish

11:59

teeth are like, are idealized boundaries.

12:01

This is my theory. They're all about

12:04

white picket fences, you know, with the grades

12:06

and white and even and uniform and

12:08

we have hedges. And our

12:11

dry stone walls if

12:13

you're in the West, like the broken uneven

12:16

gaps where you've been kicked by a cow, you know, it's

12:18

a similar thing, right? Moth

12:20

growing on them. I know exactly what

12:23

you mean. Moth growing. You never seen it be flapping

12:25

a wall. Why would you do it with your teeth? So

12:27

there's a sign showing how radioactive

12:30

that the x-ray would be. Oh yes, of course.

12:33

And it had the scale of radioactivity. So it said

12:35

like dental x-ray is X and full x-ray

12:38

is this and shift in Spider-Man

12:40

is this and lick in the ground, Chernobyl is this.

12:42

But at the top was

12:44

banana. Banana

12:47

and radioactivity. Banana

12:49

is radioactive. There it is. I remember

12:51

this. Yeah. Something

12:54

about this. A rich potassium would

12:56

have a natural isotope variance is

12:58

potassium 40, which is radioactive and a lorry

13:00

full of bananas is radioactive

13:02

enough to trigger a false alarm on a radiation

13:05

detector. No way. So if I had a Geiger

13:07

counter and was walking around clicking

13:10

and I walked past a truck

13:12

of bananas. How did

13:14

Aladdin Fights get on with their lives? Yeah, a

13:16

well provisioned monkey would

13:18

set off the

13:22

Geiger counter at Dublin Airport. They have one.

13:25

But a typical adult human

13:28

contains around 140 grams of potassium.

13:30

Yeah. Of which about 16 milligrams,

13:33

I think milligrams is potassium 40.

13:35

So you are 280 times more radioactive than

13:38

the banana. So I am. Yeah.

13:40

You were you. Oh, cool. Yeah.

13:43

I like that. Eating

13:46

one increases your total amount of potassium 40 by

13:49

about 0.4%. Which is detectable. Right.

13:53

It's very temporary because your metabolism just fixes

13:55

it. This

13:57

isn't, you know, a groundbreaking

13:59

fact. I'm bringing it to you and your part one but

14:02

yeah, you do know have you ever seen

14:04

a monkey open a banana? Like

14:07

yeah, yeah, it's my kink I guess I like

14:10

watching It

14:12

would slowly King Kong Don't

14:15

so like because bananas grow

14:17

as you know like it grown

14:19

bunches and the bit the

14:21

stocky bit is the bit where it's connected to

14:24

the

14:25

The bottom of

14:28

the banana. Yeah, it's a bit that grows out. That's the

14:30

front of the banana It's

14:35

like we it's like we go around to every

14:38

car and we just open the boot

14:40

Just like open the bottom for God's sake and

14:44

I mean they are the banana experts you'd have to say

14:46

yeah They just put these pinches. Yeah,

14:49

then it just peels away And then like

14:51

all of like does that know that that thing for

14:53

years and not the old wives tale of like don't

14:56

eat the bottom Bit of the banana to give me a c So

15:02

that's a bit at the top of the banana and if you pinch

15:04

it and peel it up it's gone So it's

15:06

not gonna make you sick was not the only more

15:09

but his bananas are radioactive

15:12

and humans are radioactive Yeah, remember

15:14

banana man the cartoon do I

15:16

ever surely he was like fuck a she-man

15:19

now was beyond

15:21

spider-man level Can

15:24

you remember a his name? Yeah

15:27

be his address And

15:29

I cannot remember either of those

15:32

things, but I can still quote

15:34

Hamlet from the Leaving Cert Yeah, is that any

15:36

use to you? Varyon

15:39

lies the difference between Neil de la verre More

15:43

I could not quote you a single

15:45

thing from Shakespeare having done the Leaving

15:47

Cert as well I think I did King

15:49

Lear out vile jelly might be the only thing I can say

15:51

and How can you not remember

15:54

Annie a Shakespeare? I mean he was your contemporary

15:58

Absolute disgrace go on ghosting

16:01

assassination of my character

16:04

of Edamoldo. Anyway, his

16:07

name was Eric. Was it Baker Street,

16:09

but another- No, it was Acacia

16:12

Avenue. Oh, very important. Now,

16:14

I think, I think I'm going to go out and live here

16:16

and think it was Eric lived at 54

16:19

Acacia Avenue. Are you, are you

16:21

looking up? Okay. You look it up. How

16:24

close am I with Eric? When was the last

16:26

time you saw it now? Banana man,

16:28

like in the eighties. I just remember

16:31

Eric lived at 54 Acacia

16:34

Avenue and he was very ordinary. It's not like

16:36

that until

16:37

he became banana man. Oh my

16:40

God, Lord. In

16:42

the cartoon, Eric wimp, a boy

16:44

magically transforms into a banana man, an

16:47

adult superhero when he eats banana. Can

16:49

I change? I haven't looked it up. I haven't

16:51

looked it up. Can I change my number?

16:54

What did you say? I said 54. I'm

16:56

thinking it was a 20. Yeah. 24 Acacia

17:01

Avenue. Anyway, 20 something. I

17:03

don't know. 29 Acacia

17:06

Road. Road. Oh no, I got the road.

17:09

Oh, cause I live on an Avenue now.

17:12

I'm kind of mildly disappointed. You were

17:14

impressed, but I'm disappointed.

17:16

Eric wimp, 29 Acacia

17:19

Road. I kind of enjoy

17:22

it more that you try to explain the rationality

17:24

of the decision. Oh, I live on

17:26

a road. And it's an Avenue

17:28

now. When Eric

17:31

eats a banana, something

17:33

transformation occurs. Yeah. And

17:36

he becomes a banana man. I'm sorry about that. This

17:38

is completely distracting from your food and drink top. It's

17:41

okay. I'll give you a quick one and then a slightly

17:43

longer one. Okay. Yeah. Have you ever heard of a Connie

17:45

Dodger? No,

17:49

I have not. I think I like Dodger.

17:52

I just love this. Cornelius Lucy was the Archbishop

17:54

of Cork, right? Right. In the 50s and the 60s and

17:56

70s and about 30 years. for

18:00

Lent and the rules of Lent.

18:03

And I know you're very suspicious about

18:05

all this as an atheist.

18:08

So if you remember back, it

18:10

was a big thing here, big thing here. Sorry, it

18:12

still is. Even with children

18:15

who are not in any way religious

18:17

like my own, they still, they

18:20

don't ever end up giving anything up, but they still go,

18:22

oh it's Lent, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do

18:24

anything.

18:25

One meal in two colations used to be

18:27

the rule. The colations were like a little

18:30

mini meal, I suppose, a biscuit with your tea

18:32

sort of thing, right? And he was

18:34

very strict on this sort of stuff. And you know, they carried a lot of way

18:36

back in those days, but he didn't say what size

18:39

biscuits. Oh, a local bakery

18:41

in Cork used to make these massive biscuits.

18:43

What biscuit would

18:45

you eat? Yeah, and you could get around all

18:47

the rules, and he was called a atheist

18:50

or Connie. So it's called the Connie Dodger. Oh, that's

18:52

so good, I love it. I thought

18:54

you'd like that. You're not gonna

18:56

like this one as much? I'll tell

18:58

you that right now. This is the last food and drink

19:00

fact. Okay. It will put you off. The

19:03

vanilla flavouring in your baked

19:05

goods. You like baked goods? I love baked goods,

19:07

I love vanilla, anything. Yes, yes.

19:10

Okay, so in your baked goods and your sweets and all the

19:12

rest could come from

19:14

the any excretions of beans.

19:18

I mean, when you said you're not gonna like

19:20

this, I didn't think we were gonna go to Beaver

19:23

Aime. Like, that's not what

19:25

I thought. I mean, it's my go to. No,

19:28

I should know at this stage, season five.

19:30

Yeah. What? Sorry,

19:33

why is vanilla not from vanilla pots?

19:36

Well, because the hoop

19:38

of a beaver. Now

19:42

technically not the hoop secretes this

19:44

kind of goo, scientific

19:47

term called Castorium. And

19:51

they use it to market territory and the US

19:53

FDA, you know, the Food and Drink Administration says

19:56

that it's generally regarded as safe,

19:58

generally is a bit of a worry there. We're getting

20:00

on with it. Oh no, no, no, no, no. I don't think we've got

20:02

the big extraction of the anal glands but go on. Well,

20:08

it's been used

20:10

extensively in perfumes and foods for eight years

20:13

and that was according to

20:23

a study in 2007 in

20:25

the international journey of toxicology.

20:28

So I mean it's nearly 20 years since then so

20:30

it's the guts of a hundred years in

20:33

perfumes.

20:34

Like you've never seen that in a perfume

20:36

match. You know the way perfumes are always French and

20:38

it's always pretentious and it's always black and white. It's

20:40

I will not be who they want me to be. Sometimes

20:43

the soul does not live in the part of the attic

20:45

where the water tank is. It stayed.

20:49

I wanted to be in the hot press of the mind.

20:51

Givenchy. I want to see one

20:54

where your man goes Chanel number five made

20:57

from the stuff from the

20:59

badgers or beavers anus. I

21:02

think as a marketing tool I

21:04

think saying look mate this

21:06

thing smells like a beaver's anus. I

21:09

think it is definitely worth trying. It

21:12

might ruin the house of Givenchy but it's worth

21:14

trying. It

21:17

comes from the caster sacks basically. None

21:20

of this is making it any better Neil. It's

21:22

not from the bottom shall we say. Oh

21:26

great. Let me guess. Is

21:30

there a way of getting to the caster sacks

21:32

without going through the bottom? Well

21:35

they're located between the pelvis and the base of the tail

21:37

but because of its close proximity to the

21:39

inland lands a castoreum is

21:42

often a combination of castored land

21:44

secretions, inland lands secretions

21:46

and urine and they

21:49

have to anesthetize the animal and then milk

21:52

is never raging. Surely to frick. Surely

21:54

to frick.

21:58

and

22:01

less

22:02

gank, gank, gick,

22:05

ridiculous to just

22:07

scrape the bloody seeds out of

22:09

a vanilla pot and give it that. Do

22:12

you think that if you go into one of these very high-end

22:15

French peri-mices that it's like, do

22:18

you know the bit in The Matrix where you just

22:20

open a door and there's just all these people

22:24

bent over, arched in the air,

22:26

don't look at me, don't look at

22:28

me. I've seen all these French

22:31

people with the smallest hands in,

22:33

that's why there's a French manicure. You have to

22:35

get the hills done after you've milked a beaver.

22:38

Oh God, so bad. So bad. Wait,

22:41

wait, wait, wait, wait. Is

22:44

that then the difference of vanilla

22:46

extract,

22:46

vanilla essence? Is

22:49

there some? I

22:51

don't know.

22:53

Do you reckon you could plug a badger into

22:55

a glaze plug-in? I

22:58

couldn't get my hands in the beaver, but I'm just

23:00

excited to do this instead. Or

23:04

if you ever got into a car, like in rural

23:06

Canada and it says in the name of fresh

23:08

dirt, and the beaver hanging in front

23:10

of the witch, the rearview mirror,

23:13

just squeeze

23:15

my tail if you need a fresh burst. I prefer the

23:17

bits when you were talking about old cartoons we liked.

23:20

I like Banana Man. He

23:22

didn't smell like in Beaver's anus.

23:26

Do you want to know what the worst bit of this is? Oh,

23:28

how can it be any worse than it already is? Because

23:34

you don't have to list this on the ingredient

23:36

list, so you can't look up. You

23:39

can put Beaver's anus in something and

23:41

not tell people. Stop

23:44

the world, I want to get off. No, so because

23:46

of it, so let's assume this is America

23:49

specifically, because of its FDA

23:51

label. Yeah. In some cases,

23:53

manufacturers don't have to list this, and

23:55

they just refer to it sometimes as natural

23:58

flavoring.

23:59

Holy Jesus.

24:01

I

24:02

mean, which

24:04

is worse, the idea of you milking the beaver, who

24:07

is knocked out, thankfully, or a

24:10

line of beavers,

24:12

you know when a dog has worms in it, wipes

24:15

his bum on the carpet, like beavers

24:17

just rubbing their bottom on. No,

24:21

neither of these pictures is something I need in my

24:23

life. Nor does anybody else. It's not great.

24:26

No, it's not. But it is vaguely related to food and drink. And

24:28

that's what we're going to talk about in the second half, with

24:30

a man with a greater sense of decorum

24:33

and indeed a greater contribution to

24:35

the world of food and drink than the nonsense that

24:37

I have just told you. Oh, thank goodness. We're going to

24:39

talk to David Gluckman, one,

24:42

if not the man behind

24:44

the invention

24:45

of Baileys. Wow.

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show us how that.

26:06

Welcome back to part two of why would you tell

26:08

me that? Now normally at this point, if we were looking

26:11

at the invention of Bailey's Dave, I'd

26:13

have a scientist lined up or a historian

26:16

who specializes in food and drinks social

26:18

history and they would be brilliant. They always are.

26:21

However, I'm going to go one better.

26:23

Oh, I have them. Well one

26:26

of the actual people who invented Bailey's. Oh

26:28

my God. Yes. I

26:30

am delighted to say we're joined by

26:32

David Luckman, inventor of Bailey's amongst

26:35

other people and author of a great book

26:37

about his adventures coming up with new

26:39

drinks. He's come up with a lot of them. The book is called

26:41

That Shit Will Never Sell, which proved to be

26:43

wrong. David Luckman, how are you? Well,

26:46

very good. Thank you. Great to be

26:48

here. So, I mean, it's been a massive

26:50

success since 1973 when it was invented. We

26:53

get to that a little bit later.

26:54

But how did you end up inventing

26:57

Bailey's? It's 1973. Your

26:59

marketing men, your Don Draper

27:02

type lads. What were you tasked

27:04

with exactly?

27:06

Well, it was very strange. It was a very simple

27:08

brief and it wasn't

27:11

something which somebody said, if you

27:14

don't solve it, we're going to kill

27:16

you. There's nothing

27:18

like that. Somebody said,

27:21

it started with the Irish finance minister.

27:24

I can't remember his name. But he

27:26

talked to the head of Gilbeas of

27:28

Ireland. There's a great man called

27:31

David Dand. He

27:33

said that if you develop a brand

27:36

that is primarily for exports

27:38

and brings export money

27:40

into Ireland, we will

27:42

give you a 10-year tax holiday.

27:45

Wow.

27:46

Okay. So, in other words, if it's successful,

27:48

you don't pay tax on it for 10 years.

27:50

And this kind of went

27:53

from

27:54

Dublin across to London where

27:56

the head office was to a guy

27:58

I worked with. on to my desk

28:01

and it was simply please develop

28:04

an Irish drink for export.

28:06

Period. That was it. That was the brief. We had

28:08

no idea who the end

28:11

user was going to be. But that

28:13

was the brief. I remember it

28:15

came in on a Friday afternoon. We

28:18

just opened up in business on our

28:20

own and I said to my partner

28:22

on Monday morning, what are we going to

28:24

do about this Irish brief?

28:27

And he was a great man but he

28:29

would switch off completely for the weekend.

28:32

He had to be totally rebooted

28:35

in the morning. So he

28:37

said what Irish brief? I

28:39

explained it to him. And

28:42

then I'll go back to the origins

28:44

of the idea which are quite important. In

28:47

the 60s, I worked in an

28:49

advertising agency in London and

28:52

one of our clients was a

28:54

very famous Irishman at the time called

28:57

AJF O'Reilly. Tony

29:00

O'Reilly. Tony O'Reilly, yes.

29:02

He's quite old. He's a bit

29:04

older than me now. And he came to

29:06

the agency with the brief to

29:09

transform Irish butter from a

29:11

commodity

29:13

which commanded a very low price

29:15

to a brand which commanded

29:18

a premium price and that made a huge difference

29:20

to the Irish economy.

29:22

It was a fantastic thing to work on because

29:25

it wasn't like selling soap which was

29:28

trying to bring money into an economy.

29:31

And O'Reilly was an incredibly charismatic

29:34

man to work with

29:35

and also a great man at buying ideas

29:38

which is a rare talent.

29:40

Anyway, I'm going forward in time

29:42

to 1973 in Dean Street in London.

29:46

I said to my partner, what are we going to do about

29:49

this Irish brief? He

29:51

looked at me quizzically and I said, do you

29:54

think there's anything in my Kerry

29:56

gold background which we might bring to

29:58

bear on this?

30:00

And he said, well, what

30:03

happens if we mix Irish

30:05

cream and Irish whiskey? And

30:08

I said, well, there's only one way to find out. Let's

30:10

go down to the shop. Ice the

30:13

whiskey, ice some cream,

30:15

bring it back to the office to see what it tastes

30:17

like. And we

30:19

had no technical skills at all. We had no

30:22

idea whether cream and whiskey were

30:24

comfortable bedfellows in a bottle. But

30:27

we figured we'd better try something. So

30:29

we went down to the shop, bought some stuff,

30:32

brought it back up to the office,

30:34

mixed it up a bit. I mean, I

30:36

could give you no idea what the dimensions

30:39

of the options were.

30:41

And,

30:43

well, it tasted disgusting. It

30:48

truly tasted awful.

30:50

So

30:52

I said, no, there's something here. I'm

30:54

convinced. Let's go back to the shop. So we

30:57

went back to international stores in

30:59

Berwick Street in London and

31:01

looked around. And I found a

31:04

can of Cadbury's drinking chocolate. So I

31:06

said, that looks interesting. So

31:08

we went back to the office,

31:10

added the drinking chocolate, put a bit

31:13

of sugar in, mixed and matched,

31:15

tasted it. And it

31:18

tasted pretty good. And it did

31:20

be transformed. So

31:24

we just glossed over something simple there. David

31:26

Luckman was part of the team that invented

31:28

Kerrigos, essentially. Like, I was thinking

31:30

of the same thing. Still, still, still. Your

31:34

modesty knows no bounds. But you invented

31:36

literally something that has now traveled the

31:38

globe and made this country so much

31:40

money. You might have put the tire on the space

31:43

shuttle, but you were working on the space shuttle, David. That's

31:45

what we're saying here. So we got these

31:47

two. Like, you're not misfits, but

31:49

in terms of what Irish people would assume,

31:51

the inventors are the people who came up with the idea

31:54

of Bailis. You've got a South African

31:56

of Jewish heritage

31:57

and possibly the poshest English

31:59

man to design.

31:59

ever been, your partner Hugh, who

32:02

sounds absolutely classy if you read the book. We

32:04

get to why Bayley's is called Bayley's in a second, but

32:06

one of the reasons is because they

32:09

were moving within Soho, Dave, and

32:12

Hugh insisted that their new offices

32:14

be near a good game butcher.

32:17

A game butcher? He liked his grouse.

32:20

Isn't that right, David? He did. Exactly.

32:22

He did. This was an Oxford

32:25

educated, Etonian posh dude.

32:28

And because they moved around within

32:30

Soho, they had to come up with this idea

32:32

for this concoction. We'll get to that in a second. All

32:34

right. So anyway, you create this, um,

32:37

concoction, David, it's begins

32:39

to taste good now at this point with the sugar

32:41

and the Cadbury's and everything. The fact is your,

32:44

your, your three glasses in is everything's starting

32:46

to taste good. Who knows? But what else

32:48

did you notice anything else about it? Well, it

32:50

tasted stronger than it was. Although if

32:52

you ask me what the ABV

32:54

was, I wouldn't have been able to tell you. And

32:57

there was just something about it that got me

33:00

going. And, um, we decanted

33:02

some into a cleaned up, uh,

33:05

Shrep's tonic bottle, screw cap bottle,

33:08

and we just started off in business. So we

33:10

didn't have to go to work in suits in those

33:12

days. We could go in jeans.

33:15

So I said, look, I'm going to go over to IDV,

33:17

the head office in York gate, and

33:21

put on my suit. I said to Hugh, do you want to come

33:23

with me? So he said, no, no,

33:25

no. I think

33:27

he said that these people are only interested

33:29

in

33:30

real drinks like malt whiskey or

33:32

fine wines. He said that they won't, they won't

33:34

be by that Mickey Mouse idea. So

33:36

I

33:37

said, okay. I put my suits on, jumped in

33:39

the cab, went across to York gate

33:42

on the edge of Regents Park and met my

33:44

client and friend, a wonderful

33:46

man called Tom Jago. It

33:49

was a Cornishman originally.

33:51

And, um,

33:52

he was a very bright guy and, um, I

33:55

walked into his office with this ridiculous

33:57

screw cap, Shrep's bottle,

33:59

called his. out into a glass

34:01

and we tasted it.

34:03

And he said, that's great. I think we should know

34:05

it. I said, can you? He said, no

34:08

idea, but let's give it a

34:10

try.

34:11

And I think thereby hangs the tale. Really,

34:15

an idea is only as good as the guy

34:18

who's paying for it says it is.

34:20

You have the best idea in the world, but the

34:23

guy who's selling it, too, thinks it's rubbish. Well,

34:25

that's fair. And he also has to reverse

34:28

engineer it now based on a Shrep's

34:30

bottle of this liquid and presumably

34:32

figure out how do we manufacture this

34:34

on a much bigger scale? How do

34:36

we manufacture it at all? But

34:39

they had guys up in Harlow

34:41

and Essex who were the technical people.

34:44

What we did was about three or four days later,

34:46

took it up to Harlow to the technical guys

34:50

and said, can you make this? And

34:53

they said,

34:54

no idea. But they give it a try.

34:56

I mean, they were required to do that. And

34:59

I remember talking to Matt McPherson, who

35:01

was the genius behind the liquid,

35:03

about 10 years later. And I said,

35:06

what did you really think of the stuff

35:08

we brought to you? He said, I

35:10

thought it was absolutely disgusting. This

35:14

is five days after they made it and it's been sitting in a

35:16

bottle. He was sitting in a bottle, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

35:18

I don't think Bottle Age did any

35:21

favors. But he said,

35:23

on the plus side, he

35:25

said, well, I know what you're trying to do.

35:28

OK. And I can do rather better.

35:30

I mentioned that you moved offices and that relates

35:33

to the name.

35:34

What happened there?

35:35

Well, when I worked with Tony

35:38

O'Reilly back in the 60s,

35:40

he said to me one day in a conversation,

35:43

if you ever come up with an Irish brand

35:46

that needs a family name, don't

35:48

pick one like mine. In

35:51

other words, O'Reilly's Irish Cream.

35:54

He said, sounded whimsical.

35:56

OK. And so that stuck

35:59

in my mind.

35:59

I think the ideas are that there's

36:02

lots of

36:03

bits and pieces that stick in your brain

36:06

and then they come out almost to order,

36:09

you know, fueled by

36:11

panic and fear. And

36:16

so O'Reilly said, you know, don't pick O'Reilly

36:18

or McGillicuddy's Irish Cream or whatever

36:21

it is. Yeah. Yeah, it's exactly different.

36:23

We were moving off us to

36:25

to Greek Street, which is two streets

36:28

down from

36:29

where Bayley's was born.

36:31

And there was a restaurant below

36:33

our new office called Bayley's

36:36

Bistro. And that's

36:39

it. I don't know. I mean, I think sometimes, often

36:42

with ideas, you

36:44

come to a conclusion and it becomes

36:47

a kind of fanatical belief. Yes.

36:50

You're not even sure how you got there necessarily, but

36:52

just it has to be. I knew I

36:54

got there in hindsight because O'Reilly

36:57

sort of pointed me in that direction. He

36:59

said you were kind of an Anglo-Irish name, didn't he?

37:01

It's not as whimsical as the O'Reilly. Yeah,

37:04

something like that. So you still got a sort

37:06

of a Bayley's effort

37:09

if that fits the mold. But talking of molds,

37:12

you didn't want to spend money molding bottles, did you, at

37:14

the start?

37:15

No, no. We had

37:17

no idea whether the idea would work. So

37:19

what we did was we found a red breast bottle.

37:23

And Tom, my client, he was quite handy,

37:26

managed to design

37:29

a letter B to go over

37:31

the R on the

37:34

neck of the bottle.

37:36

Right. The red breast bottles have

37:38

the R.

37:39

Well, they had then. They had then, yeah.

37:41

Okay, okay. We figured

37:44

it was going to be a liqueur in this short,

37:46

fat, brown bottle.

37:48

That was just our preconception at the

37:50

time. It wasn't the sort of burning conviction.

37:53

It seemed like a good idea at the time.

37:56

So that became Bayley's.

37:59

Tom was great. I called him up and said, let's

38:02

call it Bailey's. He said, great,

38:03

perfect. You know,

38:06

he could have said, well, why haven't

38:08

you looked at 16 other names? Yeah, yeah,

38:10

yeah.

38:11

He just bought the Instinct, which was amazing,

38:14

really. Is it true you just made up

38:16

the address on the early bottles?

38:18

Well, what we did was, at this

38:21

one of my better contributions, I think, I said,

38:23

look, we're going over to Dublin to meet people

38:25

we've never met before. We're going

38:28

over with one idea, so

38:30

we've got no plan B. And

38:32

this is a pretty wacky idea in terms

38:36

of the booze business. Why

38:38

don't we print the labels up?

38:41

So we would actually print

38:43

the labels and put them on the bottle and dress the

38:45

bottle so they looked real, rather

38:48

than some kind. Back in those days,

38:50

you didn't have computers. So it

38:52

was no beautiful computer-generated

38:55

design. There was

38:56

magic marker roughs,

38:59

which looked pretty rough. So we

39:01

actually did

39:03

add a printed label,

39:05

put onto a bottle, made it look

39:07

great so that we handed it to them. It

39:10

was something they could see and touch and taste

39:12

and hopefully believe in. And

39:15

what was the reaction in Dublin then? Because, you know,

39:18

Well, can I take you there? Oh,

39:20

please. I'm along for every

39:22

bit of the ride, yes. Well, a couple of

39:25

gentle stops on the way. So

39:26

one of the things was

39:28

market research was a fairly new thing

39:30

in those days.

39:32

So we just discovered this whole notion

39:34

of focus groups. All right. So

39:36

I said, why don't we stick these

39:38

into a couple of focus groups and see what

39:41

people think of it? And that was actually

39:43

a mistake. Why? What did it say? We

39:48

didn't know anything about focus groups.

39:50

So in the male group, one guy

39:52

said, Look, this is a girl's

39:55

drink. I wouldn't be seen dead drinking it in

39:57

public. Okay. And of course, all the other

39:59

guys.

39:59

they're not going to say no I disagree with

40:02

you. Yeah yeah yeah. Well went along with him

40:04

so that

40:05

that didn't go down too smoothly and

40:08

then the

40:09

in the female group one woman said

40:11

it reminded her of kaolin

40:13

and morphine which was a sort

40:16

of diarrhea remedy. Oh no.

40:19

So I went and picked up the

40:22

kaolin then. Yes. And

40:25

so the report came out saying interesting

40:27

idea but maybe not and

40:30

I remember picking it up on the day we drove

40:33

to Dublin to make the presentation.

40:35

It was a still current and I thought

40:38

reading it on the plane

40:40

it wasn't going to infuse anybody so I

40:42

put it back in my briefcase. No

40:45

mention. I'm brilliant. He's

40:47

buried the market research and then what

40:50

was it like 10 years later when it was a

40:52

massive success or 15 years later when it was a massive

40:54

success David read it out

40:56

as a party. Yeah

40:59

10th anniversary party. Oh

41:02

fabulous.

41:03

There was that but the other

41:05

thing is we put a couple of bottles into

41:07

a pub in London. In fact

41:09

I was thinking about it earlier and I don't think

41:11

the people in the pub who are

41:14

in there now have any idea

41:16

of the story but this

41:19

is quite near IDV's head

41:21

office the parent

41:23

company's head office and I would call

41:25

in every couple of days and say

41:28

anybody bought any yet.

41:32

Bottles just stay in the gathering

41:34

dust and then

41:36

just I think two days before

41:38

we went to Dublin I went

41:40

in and one of the bottles was gone so I

41:42

said oh what happened? He

41:43

said two policemen came in last night

41:46

and drank the whole bottle between them. So

41:49

I mean once you get a taste for it you

41:52

go for it.

41:53

Well that was showtime really. I felt

41:55

you know we now have incontrovertible

41:57

evidence that basically there's going

41:59

to be a war.

41:59

worldwide winner. Apparently

42:02

the early bottle said the dairy distillery

42:05

County Monaghan because it sounded

42:07

good Dave. David Gluckman

42:10

just made it up because

42:13

he thought it sounded good. County

42:15

Monaghan. Like you said it's

42:17

important for the people like you can come up

42:19

with this idea if if Tom Jago

42:21

in London and then the lads in Dublin were at

42:24

like who were the guys are gonna be making

42:26

this who would have to invest in a plant if they don't

42:28

buy the idea you're gone can

42:31

I ask you and how much

42:34

money David is an absolute

42:36

billionaire because of this.

42:43

Well I'll tell you exactly what we got

42:45

and there's not much we

42:48

got I think we got paid three thousand

42:50

pounds. Oh my god

42:53

really? I

42:54

think we were being paid a

42:58

fee of a thousand pounds a month to

43:01

manage the business so I think

43:04

we got about three grand

43:06

which we got for Bailey's.

43:09

And do you ever feel like you were

43:11

more deserving of a percentage

43:13

of all of the Bailey sales? Not

43:15

really I mean I think had

43:18

we earned the patent to the technology

43:21

you know

43:21

we just did a good job I mean in

43:24

a way you know we were never

43:26

penalized if something failed. Okay.

43:30

So we did a good job and it turned out

43:32

to be a great job. But it's

43:34

just it is amazing to me the two

43:36

you know marketing guys ad guys in

43:40

that that time in London are

43:42

tasked with creating

43:44

you know a chemical product as

43:46

it were a product that is you know you had to go

43:49

to IDV and find the experts who could then you

43:51

know engineer it but you were still

43:53

tasked with creating this brand

43:56

new out of nowhere drink and you I don't

43:58

know if you meant it but you found

43:59

a niche in the market?

44:02

We were aware of the drinks market from that

44:04

point of view, you knew where to look. Well, we knew

44:06

what the drinks market was.

44:08

We had a three or four years experience

44:11

working in the market

44:12

up to then

44:13

and we knew a bit about

44:16

the market. We knew this was a different

44:18

idea. And I suppose I thought

44:20

to myself, well, why

44:22

should all drinks not taste

44:24

very nice? Back in those days,

44:27

whiskey, gin, vodka, they

44:29

didn't taste too great. There was no reason why

44:32

somebody shouldn't create a drink, which

44:34

actually tasted

44:36

pretty scrumptious. And that's why. Yeah, I

44:38

must say from a personal point of view, my

44:41

wife is to this day

44:43

supporting Baileys in this country that we live

44:45

in. She absolutely

44:47

loves a Baileys with ice and

44:50

will, you know, at the weekend finish

44:52

off a lovely meal and go, do you want to go

44:54

to the half now and then have a Baileys with ice? And she even

44:56

has a little bottle. I think it's a little fox's

44:59

head that sits on top of it. A very ornate

45:01

bottle that she only puts Baileys in.

45:03

So thank you, David, for making her a very happy

45:05

lady on the weekend. I imagine Tom J. God

45:07

getting that initial bottle going, this is

45:10

going to cause murder at Christmas

45:12

parties all over the land and

45:14

also make an excellent cheesecake. That's

45:17

all I'll say. And David,

45:19

do you know how many bottles have been sold?

45:22

Well, over two billion.

45:25

By 2019, two billion bottles. Wow.

45:29

Yeah. And I remember there's

45:32

a thing in my book, I think I've got headlines,

45:34

I would say, has the Pope ever had a Baileys?

45:37

I wondered, you know, so many bottles, so

45:40

many glasses. So surely. At this time.

45:42

But there was some interesting five stories

45:44

to it. I think one of them was

45:46

about six months before we launched. I

45:48

had a call from David and I

45:51

remember it was it must have been sometime

45:53

in early July or late June because

45:56

the open golf was on. He

46:00

called me up and said, look, we can't just call it babies.

46:02

We have to give it an initial. What

46:04

shall we give it? So I said, well, and

46:07

I was looking at the paper and there

46:09

was something about RNA talk about

46:12

pen placements for

46:15

the open goal. So I said, Oh, why don't we

46:17

give it two initials? Let's call it RNA,

46:19

basically. And bless

46:21

him, David Downey said, yeah, I love

46:23

it. Let's do it. Oh,

46:25

that creates such an image

46:28

of a family drink honed

46:30

over generations like in Monaghan

46:32

and this fake dairy place. But really they

46:35

give out of the RNA. That's brilliant. Can you tell

46:37

us

46:37

where the title of your book comes from?

46:39

That shit will never sell. That relates to Baileys,

46:41

isn't it? It does indeed. What

46:44

happened was Baileys was

46:46

launched in Taylor's Hall in Dublin in 1974,

46:48

sometime in

46:51

November, I can't remember the exact date. And

46:54

it was a great party. And we were told

46:56

to keep quiet and sit in the back and not

46:58

say anything, which we were

47:01

quite happy to do.

47:02

And

47:04

the

47:05

CEO of IDV

47:07

then, this man called Anthony Chinan,

47:10

who later became knighted. And

47:12

he took some bottles over to New

47:14

York to

47:15

IDV's guy in New York, an

47:18

industry legend called Abe Rosenberg.

47:21

And he said, I've got this new drink. I'd like you

47:23

to try it. So Abe looked

47:26

over the bottle, which he said reminded him

47:28

of Vietnam fatigue uniforms,

47:32

the cotton khaki green

47:34

color

47:35

on the original bottle.

47:38

And then he tasted it and

47:40

looked at the tints as

47:42

was

47:43

in the eye and said, that

47:46

shit will never sell.

47:47

Wow. I thought what a great

47:50

title for a book. Oh, amazing.

47:52

And that's become one of the sort of,

47:55

it's been written up in loads of books. It's a

47:58

lot of people remember it. Do

48:01

you indulge in a bit of Baileys yourself?

48:03

Is it something you'd buy if you were passing it in

48:05

the supermarket and go, I'll have a glass of that

48:07

in the evening? Absolutely not. No,

48:09

I would have that Cool Swan. Cool

48:13

Swan, another one of your drinks I presume.

48:15

Cool Swan is past the area. That

48:19

answers your question, Dave, more of you know, are

48:21

you emotionally attached? God, no,

48:24

I just move on to the next project.

48:26

I never look behind me. Always.

48:28

He's like the Terminator of

48:29

ideas. He's on Draper mixed

48:32

with the Terminator. On to the next project.

48:35

Think about that. 1974, in

48:37

May, Hugh

48:38

and David have

48:40

this idea. What we

48:43

throw a bit of cream into whisky. And by

48:45

November, as you say, it's being

48:47

launched. That's how quickly it could happen

48:50

there.

48:50

It's just amazing. And then two billion

48:53

bottles later, here we are. All thanks

48:55

to Hugh

48:56

and David and Tom Jago and

48:58

Mac McPherson, as he mentioned there as

49:01

well, who reverse engineered their concoction.

49:03

David Gluckman, it's been an absolute pleasure

49:06

to talk to you today. And people I've been leafing

49:08

through the book. He worked on loads of brands. He worked

49:10

on Sheridan's and Tanker, Eugene and Distilled.

49:13

Guinness was the other one. It's called That

49:15

Shit Will Never Sell. Just check it out. It's really,

49:18

really interesting. Thanks, David. Thank you both

49:20

very much. Enjoy this. Absolutely

49:22

amazing.

49:32

Welcome

49:35

back to part three

49:36

of Why Would You Tell Me That? Well,

49:38

Dave, that's a classic Christmas

49:41

and other time of the year typical Baileys invented,

49:43

certainly in part by the South African

49:46

man. Well, look, here's what I was saying in

49:48

the chat with them. Is that like, is one of my wife's,

49:51

you know, favorite things?

49:53

And

49:53

Baileys anything to me tastes

49:56

amazing. Baileys cheesecake,

49:58

Baileys the chocolates.

49:59

make out of the Bayley's coffees that people get

50:02

like such a delectable

50:04

brilliant thing and I just love his description of

50:06

inventing it in London as an

50:09

ad agent like yeah just phenomenal

50:12

you do like we said you do kind of think of this

50:14

as a factory

50:16

based process not two lads

50:19

one South African one very posh

50:21

English dude going yeah what happens if

50:23

we horse a load of cream into

50:26

a load of Irish whiskey and go

50:28

but then add some sugar and see what happens yeah it's

50:30

no it's fascinating honestly fascinating

50:33

I would listen to him talk for days

50:35

and if Bailey's want to sponsor future episodes

50:37

clearly Dave is so interested yeah

50:40

that would be a marriage made in heaven oh

50:43

I've given you the origin of Bailey's which was not

50:45

as you suggested

50:45

the parent started the episode some

50:48

sort of druidic no so I built a new

50:50

range well I'm actually for

50:56

the next episode I'm actually gonna go origin

50:58

as well and I don't you know sometimes we do kind of cross

51:00

now it's not don't worry it's not food or drink okay

51:03

but in the next episode I will tell you

51:05

about the first ever road

51:08

trip and

51:09

the woman behind it Neil

51:11

the woman behind this

51:13

whoa that is good you have consider

51:16

my interest peaked right well check

51:18

that next time on why we tell me that with me and him you

51:39

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