0:00

It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thorat's here,

0:02

Richard Campbell's here, so is Windows 11

0:04

23h2. We'll

0:07

talk about that. Copilot comes

0:09

to commercial customers today,

0:11

and it's the end of the line, a fond

0:13

farewell to one of our favorite Microsoft

0:16

executives. All that coming up next on

0:18

Windows Weekly.

0:21

Podcasts you love. From

0:23

people you trust. This

0:26

is Twitch.

0:33

This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thorat

0:35

and Richard Campbell. Episode 853, recorded Wednesday,

0:38

November 1st, 2023. 10 out

0:43

of 10 for the 404.

0:45

Windows Weekly is brought to you by

0:48

Nureva. It's a first. Nureva's

0:51

new Pro Series, the HDL310 for

0:53

large rooms, and the HDL410 for

0:55

extra large rooms, give

0:58

you uncompromised audio and systems

1:00

that are incredibly simple to set up, manage,

1:03

and deploy at scale. Learn more at

1:05

Nureva.com slash

1:07

twit. And by Lookout.

1:10

Whether on a device or in the cloud, your business

1:12

data is always on the move. Minimize

1:15

risk, increase visibility,

1:15

and ensure compliance with Lookout's

1:18

unified platform. Visit Lookout.com

1:22

today. Happy November!

1:24

It is time for Windows Weekly on this November

1:27

1st, 2023. The

1:29

last

1:30

Windows Weekly in

1:33

daylight saving time. We'll be

1:36

reverting to standard time

1:38

next. Are you, Paul Thorat's in Mexico City.

1:40

You never change. Time never changes. They

1:43

do not anymore, so they don't

1:45

observe it. So when things change

1:48

on Sunday, we'll enjoy

1:49

one and a half days of being one hour

1:52

off instead of two. Better

1:56

than two days of one and a half hour off. On

1:59

the right, Richard Campbell. sample from Renan's radio

2:01

and of course he's in British Columbia. Welcome

2:04

home. Thanks, good to be home.

2:06

And we've coupled our time zone to whatever

2:08

you guys do. Yeah. So you kind of have to.

2:10

We passed a law that said

2:12

if the US decides to stop changing

2:15

in the Pacific time zone, we'll stop changing. Oh

2:17

really? Yeah. Literally. Wow.

2:20

Well, we had a referendum in

2:22

California a couple of years ago saying we

2:24

want to stay on daylight saving time.

2:28

But that's not legal because that's changing our

2:30

time zone. So we have to have

2:32

federal approval for that so it accomplished

2:35

nothing. Why?

2:38

Well, you know the federal government is so functional. I'm sure

2:40

you get a bill. Oh, no problem. Run that right

2:43

through. All right. Which federal government?

2:45

Who? Who?

2:47

What? When? Where? Hey, at least you don't have Argentina's

2:51

new soon to be president.

2:54

Right. Let us talk

2:56

about forget politics. Forget time

2:59

because there is no time in Windows world.

3:02

Let us talk. Should we talk

3:05

about your tweet? Actually, we'll do that. Should

3:08

we start with your tweet? The top on the top of the list.

3:11

Paul Thoreau's tweet.

3:13

I have ideas and then

3:15

I have them at the wrong time and

3:17

then I say screw it, I'm going to do it anyway. So

3:21

three minutes before we started the podcast, I was like, you know what

3:23

I'm going to do? What? I'm

3:25

going to bring a laptop. Oh, no. I'm going to

3:27

set it up next to my existing laptop and I configure it to work as a remote display

3:30

and then I'm going to connect to it wirelessly using my laptop.

3:32

And that took about 25 minutes. But

3:35

you got it working. You got it working.

3:38

Yeah, because at home I have two, of course

3:40

at home I have a 28 inch display

3:42

or whatever so I have lots of space but I also

3:44

have a second display for notes and

3:47

the discord and all that. And you

3:49

know, it's a 16 inch laptop. It's not

3:52

tiny but I still find it to be very constrictive.

3:56

So of course I waited three weeks into the strip

3:58

to finally fix it at the last second. before the last show

4:00

so that's the way I do things. Awesome

4:03

time. Let's work in. I think.

4:05

I talk about it and then I do it. It seems to be working great. Yeah.

4:08

Yeah. I don't know why you bothered your own together

4:10

just having one machine that does the stream part

4:12

and the other machine that does all your notes and things

4:15

like that. Like yeah. That

4:18

is the smartest thing I've ever heard. This

4:21

is a I am like I said an idiot. I

4:23

you're right that would have worked fine. There was no reason

4:26

to tie these two things together. I

4:28

don't know what to tell you. That would

4:31

have actually worked. If you get an idea in your

4:33

head you just do it and you don't think about it. You

4:35

just don't do it. You just do it. Listen

4:38

I. The simplicity

4:41

and brilliance of that is so beautiful. Yep.

4:43

That would have worked fine. Thanks. You

4:45

know you should have asked co-pilot it probably would

4:47

have had a good idea. Like a verbal kneecapping.

4:50

Oh wow. You know. A

4:53

Tanya Harding of tech. Well

4:55

deserved. No no that's good. He's

4:57

right. Isn't

5:02

this the day that co-pilot was supposed to arrive

5:05

for all of us? Yeah we're going to get to that.

5:08

Happy day. Not for all of us. For

5:10

the lucky rich and few of us in gigantic corporations.

5:12

We're going to get to this. How many seats of 365 do

5:15

you have? Also it depends

5:17

on which co-pilot you're talking about because

5:19

as you know there are about 117 of them right now. Mike

5:24

counts poking around at different teams over 140. Here

5:28

you go. No I was joking but. You're kidding.

5:31

No. You remember Lord

5:33

Satchel literally said everybody shall go forth and make

5:35

a co-pilot and admittedly most of

5:37

these will never see the light of day and that'll be a good thing.

5:40

That's funny. Wow. They

5:42

have followed the policy and they're all

5:44

experimenting. But that's the

5:46

thing. Yeah I mean from a I don't know

5:49

if it's a genealogical perspective or just

5:51

from a marketing perspective never

5:53

the twain shall meet. You know

5:55

Microsoft co-pilot is considered may

5:57

or may not be really technically true but. Kind

6:00

of the base level of most of the or many

6:02

of the co-pilots not all the co-pilots Yeah, and

6:04

so you see the same base capabilities across

6:07

Bing chat you know the stuff that's

6:09

integrated into Microsoft Edge the micro the

6:11

Windows co-pilot as I'll keep calling it because

6:13

seriously and Also

6:16

Microsoft 365 co-pilot, right? I

6:18

have to wonder if at some point these all just

6:20

don't become API's over top of them Yeah,

6:24

exactly same way and bully every

6:26

product had to implement a PowerShell interface

6:28

But there was only one PowerShell. I think right right

6:33

It was like only one XAML the dream

6:37

That's not true Well,

6:41

I didn't want to get ahead of the head of no, no,

6:43

I think go back to 22 H.

6:46

No, no, this is part. This is all part of it. There's a I Don't

6:50

know if this is technically true, but there are going to be Extensions,

6:53

I guess we'll call them or add-ons written to these co-pilots

6:57

Many which will be common across the

6:59

co-pilots at least some subset

7:01

of them And if this thing was engineered correctly

7:03

and based on your comments about LODS, I

7:05

suspect they weren't they were thrown

7:08

together rather hastily then that same

7:10

base layer should be where that extensibility

7:12

model plugs in and You

7:14

know what you see depends on which co-pilot you're using,

7:16

but I bet it doesn't work like that So we

7:19

will find out we'll see how they clean it up You remember

7:21

back in the day when when Gates put

7:23

out his internet tidal wave letter?

7:25

Mm-hmm

7:26

every team had to do something that was internet

7:28

related even SQL server now And so this

7:30

day still has that you can do a query

7:32

that says as HTML and

7:35

it will put as a table There

7:38

was a shining moment of time where you could go into

7:40

word and save as HTML And

7:43

there was a little wizard you could publish it to a I

7:45

don't know what you would use back then a blog page Front

7:48

page there you go. Of course front page. Yes Best

7:50

thing about that HTML too is that you it was

7:52

a great example of what not to do

7:55

in Hg Yeah, so

7:57

here's your fairy tale. We call it

7:59

document.

8:01

Yeah. So in the theme of what not

8:03

to do, let's talk about 23H2. I'm gonna try not

8:08

to fly off the handle on this one, but

8:10

I do have a little bit of a back patting moment

8:14

coming up here. You

8:17

may recall that in September

8:19

Microsoft had that event and they

8:22

announced a bunch of nothing really, but one of the

8:24

things they announced was that they were gonna have

8:26

the biggest Windows 11 update of

8:28

all time was coming out next week, the

8:30

next week after the show, 150 new features.

8:33

And I looked around confusedly because all

8:35

year long we've been testing that update. It was called Windows 11

8:38

version 23H2. What happened? And we found out

8:42

over time, thanks to Zach Bowden at

8:44

Windows Central, that they

8:47

needed to get this stuff out early to force

8:49

it on customers because if they put it in 23H2, it's good

8:51

to say no and wait till the next version.

8:54

And that makes sense, except what happens since

8:57

then doesn't make any sense, just like the rest of the stupid

8:59

year when it comes to Windows 11 updates. So

9:02

one week later, they did ship that update that they promised,

9:04

but it was a preview update,

9:06

right?

9:07

And two weeks later, Patch

9:09

Tuesday came and we thought, well, this is gonna be the stable

9:11

version and nope, they just put out a normal monthly

9:14

CU, nothing special. I don't think there

9:16

were any new features or anything. It was nothing. It was bug fixes.

9:19

Two weeks after that, they put out a

9:21

second preview update, this one for October, that was

9:23

exactly the same as the September preview update

9:25

except this time all of the new features

9:28

were enabled by default. But still,

9:30

this is not a release, right? A preview update

9:32

is like a beta. It's a normal

9:34

customers don't see it. You will not get

9:37

it automatically. You have to go look and

9:39

find it. Your organization could

9:41

prevent you from getting it, of course.

9:44

My wife, any normal person, my wife

9:46

is this example, would never even know it existed if I didn't

9:49

babble about it endlessly for the past 35 days,

9:51

but

9:52

she never saw it, right? And

9:55

then last week, Microsoft contacted me and

9:57

others and said, hey, guess what? Next week, we're

9:59

gonna release. Windows 11 version 23H2,

10:01

which at that time our understanding

10:04

of this thing was that it was kind of truncated

10:06

because all the great new stuff already happened in

10:08

that fall update that never really

10:10

was released. And I kind of guessed

10:12

and I came to Mexico with the plan of

10:15

updating the book for 23H2

10:17

as much as I could while

10:19

I was here and thinking I had until at least November,

10:24

late November maybe, like before

10:26

23H2 would come out maybe in preview form, right,

10:29

let alone final form. So this is just

10:31

all off schedule. But

10:33

the thing is, again, I want to go back to the September

10:36

event. We talked to Mary Jo and I

10:39

and Chris Hoffman and others. We talked to multiple

10:41

people from Microsoft trying to understand

10:43

at that time what they were doing and

10:45

we got a hundred different answers. And everyone,

10:49

you know, we're looking to each other for something,

10:51

some clarity, some idea, something, you

10:54

know, what's happening? And I said, guys, this is

10:56

just 23H2. They can call it whatever they

10:58

want but it's just 23H2. And,

11:00

you know, Microsoft said, no, no, no, no, the fall update,

11:03

it's blah, blah, blah, whatever. Well, now

11:05

that 23H2 is out, I want you to think

11:07

about something here. They never released

11:09

the fall update,

11:11

right? Right.

11:12

They released it in preview form. That is

11:14

not releasing it, you know. To

11:17

this day, they have

11:19

still not released that thing but they have released 23H2.

11:23

Sort of. Actually, to be honest, I don't really see it anywhere

11:25

but it's out. They announced it's out. So it's out

11:27

there. So I think that's kind of interesting.

11:30

And 23H2 will likely be the first

11:32

and maybe only place where most of

11:34

the population sees

11:37

all of those new features, right? Copilot, the

11:39

new teams, Windows Backup

11:42

app, etc., etc., whatever those things are. So

11:45

I just think that's kind of, for all of

11:47

this screwing around with the schedule and the naming

11:49

and what things are and what they aren't and blah, blah, blah. In

11:51

the end, 23H2 just came out on

11:54

Halloween. Perfect. And,

11:57

you know, okay. So here we

11:59

are. after. I actually have never seen

12:02

23H2 on a stable PC or VM and

12:05

of course I went up to the Microsoft website to download

12:07

the media creation tool and

12:09

to see if I could just kind of force it that way.

12:12

And I've done this now. I did this yesterday. I did

12:14

it again today before the show on physical

12:16

computer by the way, not a VM. And

12:19

that thing still sells 22H2 goddamn

12:21

new Microsoft. So it's

12:25

kind of unbelievable. I'll also point

12:27

out there are these things you sort of forget about because

12:29

they were two years ago and they never happened

12:32

again, right? One was this notion of

12:35

blockers on the Windows 10 to Windows 11 upgrade.

12:38

Microsoft said that they would put up what's called a

12:40

safeguard hold on PCs

12:42

that had maybe a hardware device or whatever it might be

12:44

that was incompatible with Windows 11. And

12:46

that over time as those safeguard holds

12:49

came out, came

12:52

out, yeah, as the safeguard holds were fixed,

12:54

I guess is the best way to say it, the locks

12:56

would come off and those people could upgrade to Windows 11.

12:59

That was two years ago, you know. And

13:01

when I updated the book recently with that upgrade

13:03

chapter, I was looking into this. I actually researched

13:06

this. I couldn't find any examples of safeguard holds

13:08

still existing. And so I actually took that

13:10

part of the book out and then

13:13

they came over with their little blog post on Monday and said, hey, by

13:15

the way, if you're not getting it, you might have a safeguard hold.

13:17

We still have those. And okay.

13:19

And apparently they have them between Windows 11 22 H2 and Windows 11 23 H2

13:22

which should

13:27

be impossible because it's the same code base

13:29

and I thought there were no compatibility issues this time.

13:31

So great. Anyway,

13:34

the workaround as of this recording

13:37

and hopefully by the time you listen to this or by the time

13:39

we reconvene next week, this will not be the case is

13:42

you can go to that same website. If you just Google download

13:44

Windows 11, you'll go to the Microsoft site. There

13:47

is something called the Windows 11 installation

13:50

assistant from the web. It will download

13:52

an app. You can upgrade

13:55

from Windows 11 to the new version of Windows 11.

13:57

It's a little ponderous. You have to download

13:59

the PC health check out from this is different

14:02

from the windows 11 creation tool like

14:04

yeah All right. Yeah, let me start with the

14:06

three the three choices, right? Download

14:08

an ISO, right? That's easy. Of course,

14:11

you don't know what you're getting there I even tried downloading

14:13

the raw ISO, but it's got to be 22

14:15

H2 because the media installation Tool

14:18

a media creation tool uses it, right? If

14:21

you have that file you can double click it mount it run setup

14:23

because you could upgrade that way assuming it was 23 H2 assumed

14:26

it wasn't so I went to and I had done the

14:29

second thing first the Media

14:31

creation tool that's the wizard you plug in

14:33

a USB key It not only downloads the ISO

14:35

but it plants it onto the USB key and bootable

14:37

format so you can use that That's what I tried the

14:39

first time the third attempt. Honestly,

14:41

this is the most straightforward It just takes a long time is

14:44

the windows 11 installation assistant.

14:46

This is a separate exe It runs

14:48

a little wizard again It actually requires

14:51

you and this is true in windows 11

14:53

to to run the PC health checkup

14:55

before it will proceed That

14:57

app contrary to its name has nothing to do with health.

14:59

It has to do with making sure you meet

15:01

the hardware requirements This is their soft

15:04

lock and if you don't you can't

15:06

and there were work arounds Obviously, I have nothing I have

15:09

here as that problem. No problem. So I

15:12

used that it took a long time But it does it

15:14

does upgrade the computer to 23 H2 so

15:16

you can there's your workaround What

15:19

am I getting right here This

15:22

I'm on the insider thing. I can't

15:24

see it. But what does it say? This is windows. I do

15:27

prefer to three five eight. Oh dot

15:29

one. Yeah, you have a new build from the women's

15:31

insider program That's all we don't know what it is. It'll

15:34

be the build em at all We could do three

15:36

five eight. Oh dot one thousand

15:39

and I underscore pre-release. What do you

15:41

what am I? The

15:45

one you Well,

15:47

I don't know Don't

15:50

tell me that I it's

15:53

the release preview I believe That

15:57

shouldn't be a 23 number though Well,

16:00

anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to derail it, I was

16:02

just curious. No, no, no, no, it's... I

16:05

was just considering... I'm

16:07

getting preview builds, right? I have 22, 631.

16:11

Okay, I have 23, 580. You're

16:14

on a 2580, something? Yeah. Anyway,

16:16

I don't care. I was just trying

16:19

to help. But obviously... No,

16:21

I did not help. Right,

16:23

I know that feeling. I'm just trying

16:25

to help here. So, but

16:28

I think some percentage of maybe a large... Maybe

16:31

the majority of our audience is probably on some

16:33

insider ring. Yeah. Yeah,

16:35

so one of the things... I don't want to transfer

16:38

all of my PCs over to

16:41

the kind of stable public release of 23H2 quiet. And

16:44

it's for that reason because I've been telling

16:46

people, and again, it's hard

16:48

with Microsoft these days because the old

16:51

common knowledge is... They don't adhere to tradition, but the

16:53

way it works, the way

16:55

it describes itself in the UI is

16:58

that if you had signed up for the release preview, and

17:01

then you went back into that interface and...

17:05

I got to put this thing back where it was. If you went back

17:07

into that interface and said, look,

17:11

I want to make sure that this thing

17:13

disenrolls when this version of Windows is

17:15

released. So, window closing as we've called

17:17

it. It's kind of a tough one

17:20

because they

17:23

don't really release things

17:25

the same way anymore, right? And so, in other words, the version

17:28

of Windows that you're testing doesn't exist. There's

17:30

no such thing. We're not testing a version of Windows.

17:33

That should still... It should still

17:35

work. So, I've been waiting to see if it happens. I was hoping

17:37

in time for this show, it was a stupid

17:40

desire in my part because it's only been one day, but I

17:42

was hoping I would see on some computer that

17:44

it had disenrolled from the insider program. I

17:47

got... This is my fifth

17:49

insider preview in a month. Yeah,

17:52

well, it's been busy. It's been busy. Because

17:57

this has been happening? Um,

18:00

yeah, it's strange to get stranded

18:02

in insider bills with it. Like you got to pay

18:05

to get to the full version too. Like you don't always

18:07

give you a path out. Right.

18:09

That's true. But release preview, right? I mean

18:11

that one, there should be a path right out of there. It

18:13

should be a ride out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.

18:18

I, uh, years ago, Leo and I would have had a

18:20

conversation where I sort of, well,

18:22

no, I, where I sort of explained like how important it was

18:24

for me as a, not just for writing and what I

18:26

do as a living, but for the books, especially, right? Well,

18:29

you want to document something and say, this is how you do

18:31

it. And it's gotten really squishy

18:33

with the windows stuff. I can't really say that a lot

18:35

anymore. I, there are so many things now

18:38

where I have to say, well, you may say this, you may say this, you

18:40

know, it's, it's become very difficult.

18:42

So this, uh, auto and auto

18:45

unenrollment from the release preview was on that

18:47

list. Um, I want to make sure that still

18:49

works because honestly, I've

18:51

been able to say that kind of thing, but as they screwed around

18:53

with the insider program over the past year or two, it's

18:56

become untrue of certain channels. And,

18:59

um, I mean, it really is preview. It

19:02

should always be tied to a version when there's someone

19:04

that should. Yeah. And, uh, we'll

19:07

see, you know, we're looking for evidence there. Well,

19:10

yeah. So then I'll tell you what version I'm on. Yeah.

19:13

See what it says. Okay. Yeah. I, that's 23 numbers confusing

19:16

to me, but I guess we'll see. Actually, this computer

19:18

was a release preview. That might be why I'm

19:20

seeing a different version of her. I don't, um, I don't want to. Hmm.

19:24

The computer on my left I'm using as a display is actually

19:26

the one I did the clean install on. I should look at the build

19:29

number over there. Yeah. Let me do a windows X

19:31

and, uh, yeah. We'll do

19:33

a windows R and just type winver. Oh, I

19:36

can, that's the easy way. Yeah.

19:38

Well, it's already even written for me before

19:41

to two H two. So

19:43

I'm a year behind. I'm like, well, see

19:45

what happens. And you're, you've got that button clicked for,

19:47

um, get updates as soon as possible, obviously.

19:50

Yeah. Something happened. Sorry. We'll

19:52

see. We'll see what happens. Yep. Um,

19:56

I, last night I was writing an article

19:59

because someone from, we don't Microsoft had documented a

20:01

new community feature that's in the free version

20:03

of Teams that's part of Windows 11. And

20:06

in reading it, I realized I

20:08

need to write an editorial about this, not an article

20:10

about what happened because nobody cares about this app.

20:12

No one's ever going to use it. But Microsoft

20:15

has now referred to the free version of Teams

20:17

by my count by five different names. They

20:20

made it seem in September like this was going to be a brand

20:22

new app and it was going to behave completely differently.

20:26

And it is the same app and it behaves almost identically.

20:29

It's just that it's not

20:31

an item pinned to the taskbar by default.

20:33

It's just a shortcut, a normal app shortcut now. And

20:36

Copilot has taken its place in that little special

20:38

list of item icons,

20:41

for lack of a better term. I

20:43

went to their website last night. I

20:45

looked back at their press releases and blog posts.

20:48

And what I found was the funniest thing I've ever seen in my

20:50

life, which is that Microsoft has multiple

20:53

versions of Teams. And

20:55

if you're using the commercial version of Teams, which

20:57

I think we would all agree is the real version of

20:59

Teams, like Teams, actual Teams. I

21:02

mean, you look at Teams, just like literally

21:04

Teams. Yeah, the

21:06

name of that app in Windows is Microsoft

21:08

Teams Work or School. It's

21:10

not Teams. The app that is named Teams

21:12

in Windows is the one that comes with Windows,

21:14

the one no one's ever going to use. And

21:17

if you've upgraded to the new version of Teams, you

21:20

could have your classic version of Teams, a new version

21:22

of Teams, the consumer version of Teams.

21:26

It's hilarious. And so I like

21:28

that the Teams team has followed

21:30

Windows 11 down this lack of clarity

21:33

sinkhole. So that's been kind

21:35

of fun. I just,

21:38

I wrote like a thousand words about this last night. I'm not going to

21:40

bear everyone with it here, but that's

21:42

part of Windows 11 23H2. In fact,

21:45

it's one of the sort of new features that, depending

21:48

on how you got it earlier, if you did, may

21:50

or may not have rolled out to your PC, but it will now.

21:52

So you'll get that. There's

21:55

not much else that's new in 23H2 that

21:57

you couldn't have gotten.

22:00

I'd say over the last month, I guess, since the end of

22:03

September. So

22:06

it's out supposedly.

22:09

I don't know.

22:10

And do we miss chat?

22:12

Are we sad that chat is now... No,

22:15

well, you know, here's the

22:17

irony of chat, which was that item, right?

22:20

So chat was a front end to

22:22

the consumer version of Microsoft Teams. Right.

22:25

And which no one uses and no one should use.

22:28

So except for one thing, actually,

22:30

the consumer version of Teams is pretty nice.

22:32

It's a kind of a clean, lightweight version of Teams. I

22:36

think the name throws people off. They think it's not for

22:38

families and friends and things. They

22:40

had Skype. Was that brand not excellence

22:42

or something? I don't know what they're doing there, but... Oh,

22:44

it's Squad. Yeah,

22:47

Skype Pro or something. I don't know. But

22:50

so chat was a front end. So this goes back

22:52

to the pandemic. Remember in 20... It

22:54

would have been 2020, the end of 2020, Microsoft

22:56

introduced a feature to Windows 10, which was

22:59

current at that time, called Meet Now.

23:01

And Meet Now was a response to both the pandemic

23:04

and also to competitors like Zoom that were

23:06

opening up everything for free to everybody. Right.

23:09

And so with Meet Now, you could click on this little icon

23:11

near the tray there and a little

23:14

panel would pop up and you could start

23:16

a text, audio or

23:18

video chat with anyone in the world. They didn't even

23:20

have to have Skype. They would just work with anyone. All you

23:22

needed was some way to reach them, email

23:25

or a text message, whatever, or not an

23:27

email, an email or not a text message, I'm sorry,

23:30

email or you could send them a link or whatever

23:32

it was. And they didn't have to have

23:34

a Skype account. They didn't have to have a Microsoft account.

23:37

I don't remember the numbers anymore, but I think it was 30 hours

23:40

of free video chats a month

23:42

or something. You know, they responded to the pandemic.

23:44

It was nice. And when Windows 11

23:46

came around, of course, by that point Teams

23:49

is huge and they're trying to bank on that. And

23:51

that's when the consumer version of Teams came up. And

23:54

chat was the consumer

23:56

Teams version of Meet Now. Right.

23:59

Same thing. account, a simple little

24:01

UI let you do the free calling, everything. It was,

24:03

you know, it's honestly a nice

24:06

little feature. So

24:08

in 23H2, as we get rid of chat,

24:11

that item icon that was in the taskbar,

24:14

and we replaced that with co-pilot, we

24:16

just have a standard Teams consumer,

24:19

as I'll call it, icon shortcut,

24:22

sitting there.

24:23

Interestingly, it offers two modes, right? You can,

24:25

there's a mini mode, which is

24:27

the default, and it looks like chat. It's a cute

24:29

little front end to the rest of the app. And if

24:31

you need more than that, you can click a little button up in the

24:34

title bar. And it switches in. Well,

24:36

it doesn't switch actually, it was a different window, but you

24:39

can switch into the normal app mode. So you can go back and

24:41

forth between the two modes if you want. So it's honestly,

24:43

it's kind of the same thing. It's just, it's

24:45

just not a weird hard coded

24:47

item that's pinned to

24:49

the taskbar to buy default anywhere. I think co-pilot

24:52

is more important.

24:55

Hope that makes sense. If it doesn't, don't worry

24:57

about it, right click it on a solid mode because no one's ever going to

24:59

use it. Who cares? That was always the problem,

25:02

right? It's like, this is a great app except for nobody

25:04

using it. So I can't talk to anybody. I know exactly.

25:07

And like, I need another messaging app, you know, for

25:09

starters, right? Much too late now. The time to get this right

25:12

was 20, March and point. Yep. This could

25:14

have been soon.

25:16

I, they should have kept it as Skype.

25:19

I think Skype was a good brand. I think it still is. And

25:22

they could have called it, you know, like they did with the windows 2000

25:25

like powered by Microsoft teams, you

25:27

know, even if it wasn't true, it would have been

25:30

much clearer. You know,

25:32

the reality of this is straight political. Like,

25:35

yeah, I know it's that technology. It's, it's

25:38

almost like if you're on the team,

25:40

you must have made somebody angry. Yeah.

25:42

Sometimes the branding or the positioning

25:44

works. Teams is tough because

25:46

its name invokes a work related,

25:49

you know, team situation, right?

25:51

I mean, you're

25:53

exactly right. And it's like, okay,

25:56

you know, there's nothing wrong with, yeah, this is

25:58

the work stuff. Here's the Yeah, I think

26:00

it's too bad. Yeah, it's in the day with the podcasting

26:03

what

26:04

we did a lot via Skype and

26:06

and that was though it was the E-path

26:08

least resistance and then eventually over time is I'm saying to a

26:11

guest. Hey, just I'll connect with you and Skype. They're

26:13

like What's

26:15

that? Wow? I know what I use for 15

26:17

years. Yeah, I haven't started that app

26:20

in a year. Let me update it

26:23

Yeah I

26:25

bet it parallels like the people who still get print

26:28

newspapers like they're just kind of old and they're not changing

26:30

anything You

26:33

know like they're they're just So

26:35

often you open Skype again, like you should do that. Well, you know, actually

26:37

I I

26:39

still use it regularly and it's been heavily exploited too. So you'll

26:42

be back all kinds of nasty That's

26:46

right. Oh copilot's in there.

26:48

You can chat with a bot if you want. Honestly, it's

26:50

not a bad idea No, if a team gave it some

26:52

love and cleaned it up. It really could be a great consumer

26:55

product I

26:58

yep, and everybody already

27:00

has it right like you have it somewhere

27:04

Well, let's get a new computer with Windows 11, right? Yeah,

27:07

this is the first one that doesn't come with it

27:09

building which is so stupid I get an email once a

27:11

year from Skype reminding me that I have site predator. Yes I

27:14

know and that's the time you use it And

27:16

then you your Skype credits good for another year.

27:19

Yeah, exactly next message to my this is sad and then I Present

27:24

I preserve my $12 and 57 stuff. That's funny. I do exactly

27:26

the same thing Oh

27:29

except that I also I do you skip I just don't

27:31

use that that was when you get the credit so you could call phone

27:34

numbers, right? Right Yeah,

27:36

no, I still have a couple of friends who Skype so I keep

27:38

it around But they've

27:40

been those people have been dropping off. There was a guy who was

27:43

a guy who was a guy who was a guy Those

27:45

people have been dropping off. There was a guy who I hadn't

27:47

heard from on a few months and he finally contacted me

27:49

He's like, how do you feel about Instagram messaging?

27:51

I'm like, I sure You

27:54

know that very much with certain,

27:57

you know trying to phase out certain message

27:59

like what else? you use. Let me find

28:01

you there. Let's find the matrix of

28:03

messaging apps. Don't go to Instagram messaging,

28:06

please. No, I know. Why

28:08

would anybody? Although you live on Instagram,

28:10

so maybe it's good for you. You

28:12

post a lot on Instagram. But

28:14

I don't actually use Instagram messaging and so what

28:17

happens is every once in a while just like this,

28:19

pull the Skype credit thing he was talking about. I'll

28:21

see the little notification

28:23

thing and I'll look at it and it'll be like, oh

28:25

boy. Like I don't think of Instagram

28:28

as a messaging app, I guess. Yeah. I

28:32

think of it as an ad delivery app with occasional

28:34

photos. Exactly.

28:37

Exactly. You know, a couple of weeks

28:39

ago, we joined Facebook

28:42

mostly because I wanted to see what was going on. I

28:45

alerted you when I saw that I thought you were doing Scam

28:48

or something. I know. I know. I scared a lot of people. And

28:51

I did when I, my first post was link

28:53

back to Mastodon so you can see that's me

28:55

on the Twitter social and you know, I can verify

28:58

it. But it was mostly just to see

29:00

what's going on with this information as we lead up to the election

29:03

and during the Israeli Hamas war. Yeah.

29:06

And it is actually much

29:09

worse than I thought it would. No,

29:11

I use it every day. It's gone way

29:13

downhill. I hate what it's become and

29:16

listen, meta is horrible

29:19

and they're evil but... Threads isn't bad, ironically.

29:21

Threads is bad. That's what I was going

29:23

to say. Threads is not bad but here's the problem. Well,

29:26

there's two problems. There's no API so I can't post the threads automatically

29:28

for my site when I publish articles and I would do that right

29:30

now. I'd be willing to make

29:32

that transition right now. I know it's coming but it's

29:35

not there yet. But the other one and this

29:38

is inexcusable. There are threads

29:40

blocks built into my Instagram

29:42

feed and I think now on Facebook too. You

29:45

cannot say no to. I am not

29:47

on Instagram to read text. I

29:50

am there to see photos. That is inexcusable.

29:53

Well, and Instagram adds every three

29:55

pictures now. I mean... Every

29:57

three? I think it's worse than that. Maybe even more.

30:00

Yeah, it looks like it's every other picture actually.

30:03

I don't ever want to see anything sponsored I

30:05

don't care about basketball dunk contests

30:07

or dogs being funny or whatever nonsense is in there

30:10

and I certainly and the ads are just

30:13

Dear God stop Yeah,

30:15

it's all it's awful. He feels like you know, the ad populace

30:18

has certainly hit us in podcasting The

30:20

sponsorship is harder and harder, but I think it's

30:22

hitting everything. Yeah, but all

30:24

of us are No, I had this

30:26

conversation with the guys do our newsletter

30:28

about the website like the web ads Stuff

30:31

has gone down the tubes the past couple

30:33

months and you know What I really think

30:35

is it's all gone to Facebook and Google

30:38

now. I think 90% has gone to Google

30:40

actually Right. So maybe

30:42

I'm complaining about the wrong thing Maybe what I should

30:44

be doing is hailing our Facebook overlords

30:47

and bracing them more and bringing them into my

30:49

life They're now in charge and

30:51

incidentally if you'd like a little box you can blow

30:54

up your tires with I got one right here on Instagram

30:58

Like what is it tiny Tim it's like, thank

31:00

you sir. We have another yeah, it's

31:03

it is it's every other picture or every

31:05

Yeah, I think so. It's it's crazy.

31:08

I also I Didn't happen

31:10

today I think yesterday the day before I opened it first

31:12

thing in the morning and it said right at the top of the

31:14

feed You have already seen

31:16

all of your new posts. Here's some Some

31:19

other stuff and I'm like don't have it We

31:24

wouldn't want you to be post list so here But

31:27

yeah, you haven't looked at 12

31:29

hours and you know, let's be to look at they could

31:31

just yeah, nobody loves you It's

31:33

actually I almost

31:35

hate to admit this but it's brought home how

31:37

much I miss Twitter Cuz you could

31:40

actually go to Twitter if you were in the you know, you needed

31:42

a hit Yes, a little dopamine fix.

31:44

Well, okay, you could go to Twitter Let

31:47

me make it a little more Business

31:50

centric I would say from my perspective

31:53

before the Elon Musk thing People

31:55

would complain about Twitter. Sometimes they would talk about the

31:57

toxicity. They would talk about Famous

32:00

people getting on there and spreading misinformation. To which

32:02

Elon's at home a beer. Yeah, exactly.

32:06

So in

32:09

my experience at that time was nothing

32:11

like that. In my own little world on Twitter,

32:14

in whatever little group I was in, I

32:16

found Twitter to be very useful as a direct

32:18

way to communicate with two people who maybe

32:21

watch this podcast or read what I write or

32:24

who were my colleagues in the industry

32:26

or whatever it was. And I never saw any of

32:28

that stuff, ever. It wasn't until

32:31

Elon Musk took over that this thing started

32:33

going that we can't link to Twitter from my website

32:36

anymore. We used to have a Twitter feed on the side.

32:39

It's gotten really bad. And

32:41

now I see a lot of Twitter is horrible

32:44

now. And it was not like that before.

32:46

So this is not so much the introduction

32:49

of terribleness as it is the

32:51

loosening of controls that prevented that

32:54

terribleness before is how I view it. Turns

32:58

out the old Twitter was doing stuff that was useful.

33:00

Yeah, exactly. And now there's really nothing.

33:02

I mean, it's just everything has gone to hell.

33:05

I guess I'm sounding like an old man. But what

33:08

do you do now when you wake up at 3

33:10

in the morning and you wake up at 3

33:13

in the morning and you're just looking for a little dopamine to

33:15

get back to sleep? Well, I got a truth

33:17

social. That's what I do. There you go. I think it depends.

33:19

Maybe I should try that. Somebody

33:23

posted in real time. Right

33:26

about then, too, ironically. Exactly.

33:31

OK, we'd have got a track there. That's OK. You

33:35

did the ISO and you got 22H2. We should

33:37

mention that. Although, I know, I'm

33:39

sorry. I should say I did not explicitly download the

33:41

ISO. I downloaded the media creation tool, which

33:43

downloaded the ISO and it got 22H2

33:46

as possible. And by the way, like I said,

33:48

by the time you hear this or next week, it's

33:50

going to switch over eventually. Even Microsoft

33:53

will figure that one out. One of our discorders

33:55

said she got 22H3. I thought so, too.

33:57

Yeah, so I don't want to say that that's

33:59

not the case. the case. I just haven't tried it explicitly.

34:02

So that's one of the three ways to do it. Sarah

34:05

says she got and she's

34:08

even put up the proof installed

34:10

on 1031. Well good,

34:12

because she's a liar. We

34:16

believe that. That screenshot was edited. I

34:18

believe you. Yeah. No, that's

34:21

good. Good. That's good. I mean, it's gonna happen eventually if it hasn't

34:23

happened already. So it will happen across

34:26

the board. Okay.

34:28

So just some insider stuff. Microsoft

34:31

is killing the Windows Insider MVP program,

34:33

which I think of course triggers the natural question. There

34:36

was an MVP program for the Windows Insider

34:38

program. Are you kidding me? I mean, like

34:40

what exactly do you need to qualify out of that?

34:42

Like, you know, you install

34:44

a lot of bills or something? That doesn't make

34:47

sense. So I look,

34:49

personally, I don't feel that Microsoft.

34:52

And nobody's losing their MVP.

34:54

They're being shifted to other categories. Okay.

34:57

There we go. I mean, here's the joke,

34:59

right? And the MVP program is really built

35:02

around individual products in

35:04

the sense that somebody's relationship with the product

35:06

means that they engage so copiously

35:08

inside of the community that Microsoft awards

35:10

them. Right. We actually look

35:13

at the MVP categories, like if you go to now

35:15

the other direction. So you understand you become an

35:17

MVP because you engage with a product, you share

35:19

it in the community, and you get an award. But

35:22

then you're told you're in a category and those

35:24

categories have nothing to do with the product

35:26

per se. They're sort of centralized groupings.

35:29

That's right. I would argue even admitting there

35:31

was a Windows Insider MVP program

35:34

kind of breaks that concept because really

35:36

they weren't called that. They were in a different

35:38

grouping. So you may

35:41

have just actually revealed a budget

35:43

line item. I think you might be right,

35:45

actually, because it is a cost center. Every

35:47

and this is, you know, sort of the reality of this is all

35:50

these product teams spend a certain amount of money

35:52

to support a certain number of MVPs.

35:54

And so I think it may hold that around. And

35:57

so, you know, I don't know why you're here.

36:00

How do you say it? Things have changed so

36:02

much. You know, back in the day, Microsoft had

36:04

RDP and TAP programs for corporate

36:06

customers, which was a way to get them

36:08

inside early products early

36:11

on, new products early on, new versions early on, and

36:14

test things out, make changes based on feedback. You

36:16

know, the MVP program was sort of

36:18

like, is sort of like that for individuals. These

36:21

are for people who are either enthusiasts

36:23

or industry insiders who, you

36:25

know, maybe are at SharePoint

36:28

and thus are a SharePoint MVP because they're super

36:30

useful in that community. They help other people with their problems

36:32

and so forth. They write a great blog or they make a

36:35

podcast. It

36:37

sounds good on the surface. Unfortunately, you

36:39

know, the MVP program also has that kind of dark side where

36:42

it is kind of about freebies and insider access

36:44

and these little briefings you have from time to time.

36:46

And they have an MVP Summit

36:48

every year in Redmond still

36:51

to this day, right, which is a big deal, you know.

36:54

You have to pay to go,

36:56

I guess, but it's kind of a fun thing to do

36:59

to get together with your fellow nerds. But

37:03

it's always kind of rubbed me the wrong way and this has never

37:05

been a popular opinion. I

37:08

don't, I've never, it's

37:10

always kind of bothered me. I... Just

37:12

because you're not an MVP, Paul, is that what we're really talking

37:14

about? I was an MVP and

37:17

I left for ethical

37:19

reasons. One was that

37:21

I ran into issues where they would have briefings

37:24

about coming products which I did not attend

37:26

but people would suspect I did secretly, you know,

37:29

to learn about stuff. And also the

37:31

free gifts from Microsoft stuff. I can't take

37:33

gifts. You know, like, and it just didn't make sense.

37:35

Wow, Paul, you're so old-fashioned. I

37:38

agree with you. I think

37:40

the word you're looking for is credible. Credible?

37:43

Integrity? Honest? No,

37:45

it'd be, you know. One would argue you can't sign

37:48

the MVP NDA and do your job. Yeah,

37:50

yeah. That's correct. That would be a reasonable,

37:52

reasonable... And I've been in the MVP now

37:54

coming on 20 years and,

37:57

you know, it's an interesting line to run

37:59

along. do turn a blind

38:01

eye to things I could see for exactly

38:03

that reason. There are times when you can

38:05

only talk when you don't know. Not that you

38:08

need me to say this, I guess, but I've known you for many years

38:10

and you've never, you don't violate

38:12

any NDAs or anything like that ever. Like you're very.

38:15

You're an MVP because that's your business, right? I

38:17

mean, is that? Yeah. Well. I

38:19

think it's been a community person for a really long time. Yeah.

38:22

For better or worse. This is your identity. Yeah, I mean,

38:24

it's sort of a, back in the day, it would have been people on

38:27

Outlook News, I think we used to call

38:30

it, whatever that was called, in news groups.

38:32

Right. Actually, before then it would have been. Original

38:34

MVPs were on CompuServe. Exactly. Yeah,

38:37

wow. You know, back in the. You go back to

38:39

that, those days? Yeah. Wow.

38:42

Because that was the community. You were in there helping other people,

38:44

the products, right? These days it's on

38:46

public news groups, it's on blogs. Yeah, I see

38:49

that. I even go to the Microsoft support pages and it'll say,

38:51

you know, MVP or MVP Gold or whatever.

38:53

Right, that's where they hang out. They'll hang out on techcommunity.microsoft.com

38:56

or whatever. And those are people you can

38:58

trust. They don't work for Microsoft, but they

39:01

have. Oh, you said so

39:03

many things wrong there. No, they're not people I can trust.

39:06

They are people, that part was great. They

39:10

are MVPs. Most valuable professionals.

39:14

Yeah. Everybody comes with,

39:17

you know, some baggage. Yeah, they look

39:19

at. Right, that's right. There is, look,

39:21

the one, this is semi-related to

39:24

this, or very related to this. I've often tried

39:26

to explain to various groups at Microsoft, if

39:28

you just brief me about something, I can't

39:31

write about it until you say it's okay. But

39:33

if you don't, I can, and I do. And,

39:36

you know, if you don't want me, well,

39:39

not divulging something at a time.

39:42

Brief me. Tell me on the record.

39:44

Right, yeah. And then it's over. And the joke,

39:46

of course, is that your speculation,

39:48

because you've been doing it longer than most of those folks,

39:51

is pretty accurate, just because you know how things

39:53

go down. Well, it wasn't until this year, Richard,

39:56

that's the problem. See, I even, this year

39:58

has been, you know. the rule

40:00

at will, let's see what you know. You know,

40:02

all 23 H2. Right

40:05

that this is this year has been a I'm

40:08

gonna be in therapy for years because of 23. I

40:10

kind of like not being sure.

40:14

Okay, I'm

40:16

pretty sure that I was right about there's multiple teams

40:18

working here. They're not necessarily speaking to each other

40:20

and that's what's making this blurry. Right.

40:23

Okay, you saw that paper come out and that

40:26

was okay. That showed up and told

40:28

us all we had to play nice each other and so

40:30

that's what's gonna be. Oh, with the copilot.

40:32

Yes. Well, not just copilots also

40:34

with the insider release. You think so? Oh,

40:37

okay. Yes. But with the

40:39

Windows 11 update schedule and the kind of cadence of all that, man,

40:41

I don't know what's going on. But

40:44

I, you know, I would you if you were

40:46

an MVP? No. Okay,

40:50

so there you go. Do you think those people have more clarity than

40:52

we do? Well, I

40:54

mean, once upon a time you got insider

40:56

briefings and things but these days with so much

40:59

of it being done in open source anyway, it's like you

41:01

want to read the thing. It's on GitHub. Just

41:03

read the code. Yeah, published every week. I read

41:05

the read me or whatever. The

41:08

only thing in the history of Windows, it is

41:10

even sort of close to this probably

41:14

was Windows 8. Now, Windows 8 was so insane.

41:17

It made no sense and there every

41:19

time you ask questions like that, the

41:21

sort of flat face answer you got was like, you

41:24

know, you could tell they had no idea they were

41:26

winging it, you know, you could just tell. And

41:29

there was a point there is Windows 8 was kind of colliding

41:31

down that path. It was just going to happen.

41:34

It was too late to stop it. Where I just sort of thought,

41:36

you know what, I'm just going to enjoy the carnival ride for

41:38

what it is. This is the stupidest thing I've

41:40

ever seen in my life. But let's just have fun with it, you know. And

41:42

I'm having trouble with doing that now. I just

41:45

love it. I don't know if it's because I'm older or whatever. But I

41:47

just feel like there's

41:50

some good stuff going on here. I mean, I wish they would communicate

41:54

clearly and provide some clarity on the schedule, especially

41:56

for businesses. And I just don't

41:59

see that. quite, I don't

42:02

understand it. I

42:04

do think you're struggling. I think, you know,

42:06

team focus has shifted. There's

42:09

been a number of, uh, you

42:11

know, windows 10 was the proving

42:13

round of what does it like when

42:15

it's not the center of the company, how do we move forward

42:18

and they've tried a bunch of things and some of

42:20

them better than others. Right. 11 is

42:23

its own weird, you know, story

42:25

all by itself.

42:26

But,

42:28

you know, a bit we're getting

42:31

a new future. I feel Paul's

42:33

pain because I think Paul considers it

42:35

is a solemn duty. This is his job

42:38

is to expand what the hell's going on. I,

42:41

yeah, I mean, and I, I'd like to be

42:43

able to accurately, you know, but I,

42:46

look, I don't want to lose track of the fact that there

42:48

are some good things happening. You know, for all of

42:51

the weirdness around updating windows, that

42:53

also was the proving ground windows 10. And,

42:56

um, they made a lot of mistakes with windows as a service,

42:58

but on the other end of it, you know, guess what? They

43:00

can update this operating system at the drop of a hat. If

43:03

they have to, they have so many ways

43:05

to update almost any component of windows

43:07

when and where they need to. Um,

43:09

that stuff has actually gotten a lot more reliable. It's,

43:11

it is better. They do it too much. You know, they're a

43:13

little spastic about it. Yeah. I just got five

43:15

insider updates this month. Yep. But

43:17

they, but the process has

43:19

gotten better. So they did prove that out in windows 10. That's

43:22

good. And also just from the

43:24

perspective of someone who cares about windows more than anything

43:26

else at Microsoft, um, this AI

43:29

thing, I love that it is lifted the windows

43:31

boat along with the rest of the company because windows was

43:33

kind of being left by the wayside on a lot of stuff.

43:36

And, uh, clean a path where it's not

43:38

like another operating system, becoming more relevant. Operating

43:41

systems are on their way to becoming irrelevant. The

43:43

same way that micro code and CPU

43:45

is irrelevant or BIOS is irrelevant.

43:48

How dare you humming? Oh, you're right. One. Yeah.

43:51

I use Linux because it's irrelevant. Let

43:54

me take a little break out of the box. Already

43:57

irrelevant. When

44:01

we come back, it's irrelevant. So

44:06

use what you want. Okay, please go to

44:08

our Patreon. We're going to

44:10

take a little

44:12

break. Come back. The Insider program does have some

44:14

updates. In fact, I'm in the middle of one right now. We'll talk

44:17

about that when we continue. But first

44:19

a word from our sponsor, Nureva.

44:22

Nureva Meeting Room Audio

44:25

Technology. You know, you've heard

44:27

me talk about it for some

44:29

time now. It really has a history of wowing

44:32

IT professionals, like at Duquesne.

44:35

Duquesne University has, this is kind of

44:37

amazing, 100. One hundred

44:39

Nureva devices installed. You

44:42

know, I imagine they tried one. They said, wow, this is great.

44:44

We have lots of lecture halls, lots of meeting rooms.

44:47

Let's put them everywhere. One of Duquesne's

44:50

senior technologists said, quote, I cannot

44:52

say enough about how

44:54

impressed I am. Audio

44:56

has been my life's work for 30 years, and I'm amazed

44:58

at what a Nureva mic and speaker bar

45:01

will do. Nureva is easy to install.

45:04

If you can install a soundbar, you

45:06

can install a Nureva sound

45:08

speaker and microphone. Nureva's

45:11

patented microphone, Mist Technology, puts a thousand

45:14

microphones in the room. So everybody,

45:16

everywhere in the room can be heard clearly, no matter

45:18

where they're facing. This is so important for

45:20

your huddle room, your

45:23

all hands room, your lecture hall,

45:25

because you've got people who are not in

45:28

person anymore, right? They're at home and

45:31

they're on a conference call and, you know, bad

45:33

audio just kills it. Nureva

45:36

solves it. Nureva just made another leap forward

45:38

with the introduction of their Pro Series

45:41

featuring the HDL 310, that's

45:43

for large rooms, and the HDL 410 for

45:46

extra large rooms. For

45:48

the first time, you can get pro audio performance

45:52

and plug and play simplicity in

45:54

the same system. You

45:57

know, in the old days, multi-component pro AV

45:59

systems are the only way to do it. to do this at great

46:01

expense, highly technical,

46:03

you had to have technicians tune it. It

46:06

was just tough to get performance in large and extra

46:08

large rooms. This is suddenly, it's very, very

46:10

easy. Just try the online demo. On

46:13

the online demo, you'll hear the Nureva expert

46:16

being heard and he gets under a table,

46:19

behind a pillar. It doesn't

46:21

matter what the obstructions are, it doesn't matter where

46:25

the speaker is facing. The HCO410,

46:27

that's for the big rooms,

46:29

covers 35 by 55, 35 feet by 55 feet.

46:32

It's just two mics and speaker bars.

46:37

One of the cool things is, if it's a divisible

46:40

room, you've got the divider open, you

46:42

got the two, but you close it, it senses

46:45

that it can automatically now be two independent systems.

46:47

That's super cool. The

46:50

HCO410 also features a unified

46:52

coverage map, which processes

46:54

mic pickup from the two devices at

46:57

the same time. When they're unified, it creates

46:59

a giant single mic array.

47:02

Close the divider, now you've got two. It's

47:05

really, really smart. The HCO310, that's

47:08

still pretty big, 30 feet by 30 feet.

47:11

That's just one mic and speaker bar for 900

47:14

square feet.

47:16

Nureva is all about simplicity. The HCO310

47:18

takes about 30 minutes to install. With

47:21

two of them, the 410 takes twice that, 60 minutes. 60 minutes.

47:25

Calibration, forget it. It's continuous, it's

47:27

automatic. It continuously

47:30

adapts to changes. Close the divider, it knows.

47:33

Put up tables, chairs, it

47:35

knows. Fill it with a thousand people or

47:38

just five, it knows. With the

47:40

Nureva console, which is their cloud-based

47:42

management platform, you

47:44

could do it all without leaving your seat.

47:46

IT loves this. They don't have to go to each room and

47:48

calibrate it. You can update firmware,

47:51

you can check device status, you can change settings

47:54

all from the console wherever you are. Bottom

47:56

line, with the Pro Series, Nureva makes it simple

47:59

to quickly and quickly install. cost-effectively equip

48:01

more of your spaces for remote collaboration.

48:03

It's the time has come to

48:07

take a look at Nureva. Nureva.com

48:10

slash twit. T-W-I-T.

48:13

Nureva, pro-AV

48:15

performance and plug-and-play simplicity

48:17

together at last! Nureva.com

48:22

slash twit. We thank them so much for supporting Windows

48:24

Weekly and the mighty

48:27

and the confused Paul Thorat.

48:29

Yeah, speaking of confused

48:31

I thought I muted myself when I left but

48:33

I didn't. Sorry, I have a button

48:35

here. I can press it and

48:38

there's no sound. No, I didn't even try to.

48:40

I didn't know, I didn't hear it because I muted

48:42

you right away. Yeah, I've worked at home

48:45

for 30 years. I talked to myself a lot.

48:47

As soon as I saw you get up,

48:50

my finger reaches over here, see this button,

48:52

boom, and you're silent. Okay, I

48:54

usually mute when I leave but I... That's fine. I

48:58

have the power. Yeah,

49:00

so much power. I have so much power. So

49:03

I'm getting my Insider build, boy

49:05

this is taking forever by the way. Yeah,

49:07

so during the ad I checked the Windows

49:09

Insider blog and there, expecting

49:12

maybe there was a new build today,

49:15

there wasn't for the release preview but

49:18

there was for Canary and that's

49:22

weird I believe. Well this might be an old,

49:24

I might not have, although it says I got one

49:26

on the 29th so it's

49:29

not that old. There have been a lot

49:32

lately that is true. But

49:35

this, the release notes

49:37

for the Canary build has an interesting

49:39

thing in here. Starting

49:41

with this build, the maps and

49:43

movies and TV apps will no longer be installed

49:47

by default when using a clean

49:49

install. And I don't know if that means

49:51

they're being deprecated in the future or

49:54

going away entirely. I think we can

49:56

all agree Windows Maps has sort of outlived its usefulness

49:59

now that we don't have phones. ones, right? The

50:01

idea before was you could start doing a directions

50:04

lookup on your PC and send it to your phone. It was

50:06

kind of a cool idea. Movies

50:08

and TV is their app

50:11

for DRM protected

50:13

content that you buy through the Microsoft

50:15

store and or get through movies anywhere

50:17

that service where you can link all your services. Perhaps

50:20

they're going to add that functionality to the new media

50:23

player app. It is an old school almost

50:25

Windows 8 looking at all this. Probably

50:28

Windows 10 looking at, I guess, but it's it

50:30

looks out of place in Windows 11 for sure. So

50:33

I wonder if that means they're getting rid of it. I do.

50:36

Yep. First I've heard of anything like that. Also,

50:39

since we're on that build, they announced

50:41

this earlier possibly because they put it in a different

50:43

channel. But during the out of

50:45

box experience of Windows setups, you buy

50:47

a new PC, you open up that white screen comes the blue

50:50

Windows logo, tells you you have to sign

50:52

into an account, etc, etc. You have

50:55

to be connected to a network

50:57

for that to work. And

51:00

if you this wouldn't happen on a new PC,

51:02

I guess, but if you built your own PC, perhaps,

51:04

or if you were rolling out, well, you

51:06

wouldn't go through the O will be actually I guess it's only for

51:08

white box guys. Anyway, it's going

51:10

to give you an option to install drivers during setup so you can

51:13

get online. Eliminating

51:16

that complaint. If you do have the Windows 11

51:18

field guide, and I remember this only because

51:20

I just updated this chapter, there are ways around

51:22

that stuff. You don't have to be connected to the internet

51:24

to install Windows 11. But we'll have

51:27

to test in the future if that's going to change. I

51:29

can't imagine they'll completely get rid of it. But

51:32

that is kind of interesting. And

51:35

then on the dev channel build, not

51:37

much they're gonna

51:40

let local accounts access copilot windows

51:42

for limited number of queries. That's kind of interesting.

51:45

I just wrote about copilot for the book.

51:48

And I have to say, there's a lot of a Microsoft

51:50

account integration there. If

51:52

you use it to create an image, for example, it saves it to

51:55

the Bing image creator back end,

51:57

which is tied to your Microsoft account. So you can always access

51:59

it from the web. I could

52:01

see it being less useful with a local account

52:04

and it's about

52:06

it. Not too much else. So the two builds

52:08

today are not profound and even less

52:10

profound were the two we got last week. They're

52:15

adding a recently added folder

52:17

to the top half of the start menu for

52:19

new apps. Typically

52:22

those have been in recommended, not in the folder,

52:24

but you know, they're screwing around with it, I guess. That's

52:27

in the dev channel, not a big deal. And

52:29

then the beta channel build from last Thursday were two new

52:31

features we've seen elsewhere, which is that system component

52:33

thing I've been talking about, new interface

52:36

and settings. And then the game bar rebranding

52:39

used to be Xbox. Actually, I think if

52:41

you're in 23 H2, yeah, it's

52:44

already

52:44

called game bar. So there you go. We've already

52:46

done that.

52:48

So obviously they're testing it in this. And

52:54

then because it is November 1st, as we record

52:56

this, we looked at stat counter today. They're

52:59

the only analysts, I don't know,

53:01

market, what do we call these people? Market researchers, whatever.

53:04

Left standing for this kind of information. Windows 11

53:07

actually saw a little bump in the past month. It's been

53:09

pretty flat this year, but

53:11

now Windows 11 is about 26% of all Windows versions.

53:17

It's almost entirely consumer. Yeah,

53:20

I do. I do. I think so. The

53:22

enterprise folks have no interest, like not

53:24

a thing. Yeah. And

53:27

actually that's an interesting way to look at it because these

53:29

numbers match the way I look at Microsoft's

53:32

revenues, consumer versus commercial, one

53:34

to three, right? So Windows 10

53:36

still accounts for almost 70%

53:39

of all Windows usage compared

53:42

to 26% for Windows 11. If we

53:44

do a little math and this is not accurate, I don't want anyone to

53:46

hold me to this, but because this does not

53:48

translate exactly. But if there are 1.4

53:50

billion Windows users overall, that means it's just under

53:53

a billion, below Windows 10, about 970 million and about 366

53:55

million on...

53:59

So three to one roughly, right? That's

54:02

on that. It's

54:06

your thought that it's business people primarily

54:09

that are not moving over. Right. Yeah. And

54:11

that's definitely been the energy

54:13

is no reason to move off a 10 11 doesn't bring anything.

54:17

It breaks a bunch of things like

54:19

the group policy is not symmetrical, although it's close now. Like

54:23

the only now in the maybe 23

54:26

H two will be the one where for

54:28

an enterprise person, it's like, okay, this is not a big

54:31

shift other than the training overhead for the stuff

54:33

that's moved around. Yeah, I think they

54:35

have addressed enough

54:38

of the concerns that that can start happening. Yeah. And

54:40

that was, you know, like, and that's why

54:43

they were, they were, they've been after that for

54:45

a year with the, hey, 25 is it for 10? Which

54:50

nobody believes at least in on the end. Yeah. Yeah.

54:53

Well, by the way, we don't

54:55

talk about this too much, but every once in a while, Microsoft does

54:57

add something to his pen. I guess

54:59

we could technically say it's not really

55:02

a feature, but, but they add little things, right? The start

55:04

menu changes a little bit. They had things that

55:06

are tasked for sometimes it's. Do

55:08

you understand how happy the enterprise

55:11

is with the operating system not changing? Because yes, we've

55:13

got other stuff to do. Like, this is not important.

55:17

So even as an individual, and I

55:19

considered just maybe actually she was Windows 10,

55:22

you know, but as a person

55:24

and not just because I have to know what's happening

55:26

in Windows 11, etc. But I

55:28

find Windows 11 to be kind of antiquated from

55:30

a UI perspective. Yeah, it seems, Windows 10, sorry.

55:34

It seemed fresh, you know, at

55:36

the time and, but it's, you can tell

55:38

looking at it now, it's like, this is fun. They just look like fun. And

55:43

I've keeping one workstation on 10,

55:45

moved another one to 11. Like I'm definitely trying

55:47

to live in the mix, but I'm, plus

55:49

I'm de-corporating the, all of my machines now

55:51

as I look for it. Five. Five.

55:54

Ten, boy. I got to see that article. And

55:59

they, that would be-

55:59

the piece you were talking about about the market share

56:02

piece, that whole thing is

56:04

MacOS going from 15% to 20% in

56:07

a year. That's a huge

56:09

number. Yeah right because the

56:12

gain of Windows 11 roughly matches the

56:14

decline of Windows 10. Although by the way Windows 10

56:17

over a year pretty solid right? 71% to 69%

56:22

that was all it dropped in one year. This is a

56:24

conversation we're going to have a lot of other

56:27

sides extending right?

56:30

Yeah comparing it to the alternative

56:32

OS is yeah. And

56:36

I think I talked about this last week. Windows 11

56:40

was a response to Microsoft's sphere

56:42

of this happening. That the combination of

56:44

Apple Silicon and all the performance

56:47

and battery life gains there and the

56:49

kind of device like nature of it taking

56:52

away the complexity of the horribleness of the PC

56:54

and the fan noise and all that stuff. It's

56:56

a serious competitive threat to them.

56:58

Since the M series started they've

57:01

simply been the if you have a choice of computer

57:03

this is what you buy. Yeah.

57:05

Especially the air variants are reasonably

57:07

priced. Right. Unbelievable

57:10

performance, stunning battery life.

57:12

Like if you are open to choice

57:15

why would you consider anything? Well

57:18

I mean I hate myself. I can't speak for everyone

57:20

in the community. We

57:24

know this much. Yeah. We're

57:27

both doing our best in position for us. Thompson

57:30

here right? But Paul has

57:32

Max. Do you have any Max Richard? Yeah

57:34

I do. I always have Max. Yeah of course. You don't have any Max

57:36

at all Richard. No. Do you look

57:38

over with some interest in envy?

57:41

You just described a pretty nice machine. Yes.

57:44

And again I'm a hardware guy so when I look at

57:46

the hardware I'm like yeah

57:48

this is gorgeous in every and

57:51

not just visually and although the

57:53

act is beautiful too. From

57:55

an engineer's perspective it is the

57:57

most beautiful machine made and has a so years

58:00

in a row. So macOS is what, multi-pack

58:03

or? Well, yes. And Apple's

58:05

ecosystem in general doesn't fill the

58:07

joy, right? Now there is an iPad

58:09

floating around this house. It is owned by she

58:12

who must be obeyed. And

58:14

I do covet it because

58:17

all the other tablet options are

58:20

horrible. Yes. Right? I've

58:22

gone the chrome. There's no reason not to use that. You can

58:24

use an iPad just as a standalone device. I

58:27

do that. It works fine. And I think she's got

58:30

the magic keyboard too, which is obscenely

58:32

expensive for what it is. But you know

58:34

what? That is a gorgeous machine and

58:37

it's her morning routine. Oh, so she,

58:39

I'm sorry. She is an iPad pro. You're talking about

58:41

a natural productivity machine here. Oh yeah. And

58:43

in some ways, now, she works

58:45

in the CAD world. So she has

58:47

all, she also has a think

58:50

pad a source, right? Like she has one of the two

58:52

think pads because she needs so much horsepower for

58:54

the catarind side of clothing

58:56

engineering. And that

58:59

there's nothing elegant about a T series

59:01

Lenovo. Like that's the dining skill size

59:04

animal. Our supplier. It's elegant in a

59:06

way. And it's if a form follows

59:10

function. Yeah.

59:12

I mean, it's a tool. It's elegant.

59:14

The machine that Stacy has is

59:18

not that machine. This is like a workstation class.

59:20

You know, I have a T series. I love my teeth.

59:23

It's elegant like a sledgehammer.

59:26

Yeah. Well, it gets very good. So

59:28

if somebody were from another

59:30

planet and never used anything and

59:33

listen to the show, I think

59:35

their initial reaction would be, are you guys

59:38

nuts? Why, why

59:40

do you put up with this? But if a, an alien

59:44

came to earth now, they would think the cats were in charge.

59:46

I mean, I can't explain well, that's true too.

59:49

You know why everything works the way it works.

59:51

But that's a good point.

59:54

We don't know why they said that,

59:56

but we, because

59:58

you're wrong. It's not the cats. in charge, corn

1:00:01

is in charge. There you go. A number

1:00:03

of people were very involved. I logically, yeah, remember that. Yeah,

1:00:06

it was the Aztecs or the Mayans, they were genetically

1:00:08

some huge, they were the people of the corn literally,

1:00:10

physically. We are now those people because

1:00:13

of the corn syrup and yeah.

1:00:15

We're worse than that actually. I believe genetically I think

1:00:17

there's more corn in us than there were in them. That's

1:00:20

also another different topic. But

1:00:23

no, I mean, why do we, so look, when

1:00:25

it comes to productivity

1:00:28

work, what I would call traditional productivity

1:00:30

work, we're still in a world where you're

1:00:32

going to need the big screen, full size keyboard pointer

1:00:35

of some kind. You know,

1:00:38

Windows still nails that stuff for me. And

1:00:40

I still prefer a larger diversity utilization

1:00:43

than Mac. When you're in the

1:00:45

Apple walled garden, you got to stay in the garden

1:00:47

inside. And

1:00:50

there's a device focus over there. And I'm not

1:00:52

saying it's bad. There are, obviously there

1:00:54

are younger people coming up out of school especially who

1:00:57

grow up on Apple devices and Google services

1:00:59

and they're kind of into that world. We

1:01:02

talk sometimes about this weird markdown

1:01:05

world of like light editors and note takers

1:01:08

and things and those tend to be bigger on the

1:01:10

Mac than they are on the PC. You

1:01:12

know, we kind of, in many ways the PC,

1:01:14

by which I mean the Windows PC is

1:01:16

sort of settling into almost a workstation

1:01:19

role. Whereas the

1:01:21

Mac is for general

1:01:23

users, you

1:01:25

know, who are comfortable in the Apple ecosystem.

1:01:28

And then of course creative types who are using video

1:01:31

editors or whatever that might be. Not

1:01:33

that you can't do that on Windows. Right? But

1:01:35

that stuff, I think those people, I think people still think that

1:01:37

they're building a little bit of a lead. And their classes

1:01:39

of development are done well on the Mac and their classes of development are done

1:01:41

better on Windows. Yeah, right. That's right.

1:01:44

Very hard. Look, this

1:01:46

stuff is going to change. I mean, I was

1:01:49

talking to somebody yesterday about this. If

1:01:51

you look at my apps that I kind of pinned to the taskbar

1:01:53

now, the percentage of apps that are

1:01:55

cross-platform and or web-based has grown

1:01:58

dramatically over the years. You know, 10, 20 years. years ago

1:02:00

especially, they would have been all native Windows

1:02:02

apps. That was the advantage, that was the point.

1:02:05

And great new apps

1:02:07

like Notion or Clipchamp

1:02:10

which Microsoft bought and includes the Windows are

1:02:12

web apps and they're very... They're

1:02:16

elegant, beautiful apps. They're powerful. Microsoft

1:02:20

had trouble solving the

1:02:23

command density problem in Microsoft Office.

1:02:26

They did the ribbon but it's still difficult because

1:02:28

these apps are so big and complex. And

1:02:31

they don't even talk to me about Visual Studio. Same thing.

1:02:34

Yeah, same thing.

1:02:37

And Photoshop is like this too. If you use Photoshop a lot,

1:02:39

even Photoshop elements, depending on what

1:02:41

you do, you can launch a window.

1:02:44

Like this happens when you save for web. The

1:02:46

Save for Web window is an application

1:02:48

I think was written by some other company. It's a

1:02:51

little different than the rest of Photoshop and

1:02:54

it's just different because that app is so

1:02:56

big and complex and UIs

1:02:58

you see in Office can be like this, UIs you see

1:03:00

in Visual Studio. It's an application with

1:03:03

a version number that's a teenager. Is it

1:03:05

like this? Right, right. It's

1:03:08

just of being around that. It's

1:03:11

the biggest benefit of Windows is it's Achilles

1:03:13

heel and this is true of any platform

1:03:15

probably but just because we're talking about Windows,

1:03:17

it's this backwards compatibility. No

1:03:20

API will be left behind mentality

1:03:23

that Microsoft has which has served it

1:03:25

well in some ways. Yeah, and

1:03:27

is this distinctive aspect? Right.

1:03:30

I mean Apple very aggressively has chopped off old

1:03:33

versions of things as they went and that also has

1:03:35

pros and cons, right? So

1:03:38

I don't know the Mac as well but two, three

1:03:40

versions go Mac did their, or Apple did their

1:03:43

UI refresh whatever

1:03:46

version it was. And

1:03:48

when you come from the Windows world and you look at that, it's a little

1:03:50

heartbreaking because they already had done

1:03:52

all the hard work of getting

1:03:54

rid of legacy cruft. So when they changed

1:03:57

their UI, it actually changed everywhere. What a concept.

1:04:00

In Windows, it's an archeological dig of different

1:04:02

strata of UIs and

1:04:04

technologies. And, you know, it comes with

1:04:06

overhead and the architecture

1:04:08

of the Intel processor is the same thing.

1:04:11

Exactly the same thing. Yeah. They're carrying the

1:04:13

same legacy around those original 63

1:04:16

instructions that were in the 8086. We're

1:04:19

still in there. Yeah.

1:04:21

So

1:04:22

backwards compatibility is great, but it's

1:04:25

also the problem. Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:28

Anyway, that's what. So, and it's an interesting question.

1:04:30

That's why. I believe you're right. You know,

1:04:33

neither is ruthlessly killing your grandparents,

1:04:35

which is the Apple attitude. Right. Yikes. Is

1:04:39

it just certain? You know, they did some really

1:04:41

amazing things though. For instance, when

1:04:43

they went to Apple Silicon, their Rosetta 2 compatibility

1:04:46

layer really worked. In fact, it works

1:04:48

so well that most

1:04:50

people don't even know that they're not running.

1:04:54

See that itself. That's maybe that's

1:04:56

an ideal example

1:04:58

of good decision making, but

1:05:01

also like decisively choosing the

1:05:03

right place to make a difference. Right. People

1:05:05

disagree with this, but I often tell people

1:05:07

talk about, oh, there's only one web rendering.

1:05:10

I'm sorry. Web rendering engine sort of there

1:05:12

isn't really, but chromium is the big thing. Oh,

1:05:15

too bad Microsoft could they kept doing their own thing. It's important

1:05:17

to have variety and diversity and blah, blah, blah, blah. And there

1:05:19

is, but maybe not at that level. And,

1:05:22

uh, if Google, if Apple had taken that heart of

1:05:24

a stance on their chip set, they wouldn't have

1:05:27

done what you just described. And those old apps

1:05:29

would have run poorly for some number of years until

1:05:31

developers caught up. And that's the

1:05:33

problem we see on the Microsoft side with harm

1:05:35

because no one is adopting

1:05:37

this platform because no one's using it. And on

1:05:39

the Apple side, they can just say, we're switching. So you're

1:05:42

using it and it's, it's a different world,

1:05:44

but Apple in that case,

1:05:46

I think it made an incredibly right decision.

1:05:50

Um, and just, you know, I think, and I

1:05:52

know this doesn't, it's not as profound, but I think when,

1:05:54

when Microsoft just gave up on the

1:05:57

never ending treadmill of trying to keep up with

1:05:59

web standards. and making websites all like the same

1:06:01

and just went with chromium, that was

1:06:03

the right decision. I mean, they screwed everything else up since

1:06:05

then, but the idea that you should be competing

1:06:08

on UI, security and privacy

1:06:11

and whatever the features is

1:06:14

maybe the right one. I

1:06:17

think that battle's over, but, for example,

1:06:19

actually disagrees on that one too because they have Safari. So,

1:06:22

yeah, who can say? And it's

1:06:24

doing pretty good. It's interesting.

1:06:27

I didn't know they had a 5% increase.

1:06:29

That's really interesting. And that's

1:06:31

a staggering number. That is 25% more. Yeah,

1:06:35

Apple's market share used to be

1:06:38

like Microsoft stock price. Single's like a flat

1:06:40

line forever. You know, forever.

1:06:43

And there's been little bumps, but you know, the

1:06:45

Apple Silicon story to me

1:06:47

for the first couple of years was it didn't

1:06:49

move the needle that much, but what's

1:06:51

happening now? You know, it's starting to move. So,

1:06:55

we'll see. I can't use, I still,

1:06:57

I kind of hate the Mac. I like Richard.

1:06:59

I love the hardware. What

1:07:02

do you hate? I'm just curious. It's an interesting,

1:07:04

it's a strong phrase. No, it takes me,

1:07:07

you could put a timer on it. How soon before

1:07:09

he throws it back down and says no. It's usually

1:07:11

less than a minute. It's just some, I

1:07:14

find them very difficult to use. And

1:07:16

I use, I actually, I

1:07:18

mean, I always have one at least and I sometimes more than

1:07:20

one. I do use them from time

1:07:22

to time. They're around. It's not like, it's

1:07:24

not like, it's on five years or something.

1:07:27

I haven't used one since I came to Mexico, but I was using

1:07:29

one right before I came to Mexico. I

1:07:32

just don't like it. I don't know how to explain it.

1:07:35

That's completely fair. Even

1:07:37

Chrome OS to me is a little more familiar.

1:07:40

Maybe because it's a little more like Windows.

1:07:43

In my $5,000 M3 Macs notebook comes, I will do it again. Oh,

1:07:52

did you get one really? Yeah. No,

1:07:55

only 14. I don't like it. 14, I decided.

1:07:58

I thought I did. I

1:08:01

want a laptop I can use as a flotation

1:08:03

device if the plane goes down. I

1:08:08

don't want to be like that guy at the end of Titanic. There

1:08:11

wasn't room for him on there. There's always room

1:08:13

on a 16. No I got the 14

1:08:15

because I can run 3 6K monitors

1:08:18

if I want off of it. So if

1:08:20

I need more screen real estate but I wanted real

1:08:22

portability. But the only reason I

1:08:24

mention it is to say that

1:08:26

I will be trying Windows on Arm

1:08:29

on Parallels on it. And

1:08:31

I think you will find it is wonderful. Yeah and I think

1:08:33

it's kind of interesting. Yeah I mean this

1:08:36

is you know 40 core GPU. I

1:08:39

mean this thing is a beast.

1:08:41

Yeah.

1:08:42

Yeah. They were

1:08:45

claiming 11 times faster than the

1:08:47

Intel iMac. Whatever

1:08:51

you see something is 11 times

1:08:53

faster. What generation

1:08:55

processor was that running though? I mean obviously

1:08:58

that's not fair. People who like Apple say

1:09:00

they're only comparing that because that's who they know is

1:09:02

going to upgrade. Apple says and you know

1:09:04

you take this with a grain of salt if you want. But Apple says

1:09:06

it's because so many people still have Intel

1:09:08

max. And really that that's a

1:09:10

sweet spot of the market for them is to get these people

1:09:13

finally to be wearing Apple Silicon. They

1:09:15

are in the business of selling hard. They

1:09:17

want you to buy the new hardware. And a lot of

1:09:19

people are still running those Intel max. We

1:09:22

just got rid of Lisa just got rid of her

1:09:24

Intel iMac Pro 5K. Did

1:09:27

she notice how quiet her office was? You

1:09:31

know these new iMacs are dead silent.

1:09:34

They really are. Yeah. Another

1:09:36

thing I mean a little thing that Apple threw in and

1:09:38

I don't know if it got a lot of attention is that

1:09:41

their performance benchmarks are identical whether

1:09:44

the machine is plugged in or not. Yeah.

1:09:48

I don't think that's the case of any Windows machine

1:09:50

right. Intel's closed down. I mean

1:09:53

it can be. It can be. You

1:09:55

don't want more. Don't play the F-Power or battery

1:09:57

life right. You're like quick run the benchmark. Watch that battery

1:09:59

grid. I mean, it could

1:10:01

be. I can run the benchmark at the same performance

1:10:04

on this laptop, on battery. It

1:10:06

just can't... It's quite a flex. I want

1:10:08

to say, yeah, you can, you know, you're going to get 11 hour or 22

1:10:10

hour battery life, 22 on the 6th. Right.

1:10:13

And it'll run the same whether you're plugged in

1:10:15

or not. It's quite a flex. I can't

1:10:17

speak... I'm sorry. I

1:10:19

do think it'll shorten the battery life like

1:10:21

you're going to, because if you stay at full

1:10:23

bore, the battery is going to be a flex. Yeah,

1:10:26

okay. So actually, this was... I want to comment

1:10:28

to something related to this, which is I have

1:10:30

spoken to people from PC Maker's

1:10:32

Intel AMD Qualcomm, right? And

1:10:36

there is this shift occurring in the industry about

1:10:38

how these processes work with cores and how things

1:10:40

come on and shut off automatically. And these

1:10:42

things are going to more dynamically

1:10:45

handle power band entrance doors as needed, right?

1:10:48

And Apple has, given all the cores they have and everything they have

1:10:51

and the prowess they have just in this field, they

1:10:53

must be doing the same thing, right? The

1:10:56

way this battery life and performance thing works

1:10:58

is that they've had to completely

1:11:00

re-architect the underlying system

1:11:03

that can, you know, for handling the

1:11:05

power band entrance of those cores and what they do and how they

1:11:07

go on and off, etcetera, etcetera. So that's become

1:11:09

very sophisticated. And I... Well,

1:11:12

this whole notion of efficiency cores

1:11:15

and performance cores comes from the ARM

1:11:18

side, right? But even then, if you're doing

1:11:20

it now... They are, but ultimately

1:11:23

that sounds unsophisticated

1:11:25

compared to what AMD is starting

1:11:27

to do and what I believe

1:11:30

Qualcomm is doing on their new PC

1:11:32

chips and I assume Apple is doing on their

1:11:34

stuff which is... Well, no, Apple does

1:11:36

have power and efficiency cores, don't they? Yeah.

1:11:39

You know who does it? It's not core. Well,

1:11:41

AMD doesn't. Qualcomm has no efficiency cores.

1:11:44

They have core power and performance cores. Yeah,

1:11:46

so AMD did that on HP...

1:11:49

What ever that chip is. The HP Dragonfly

1:11:52

Pro, they have a single

1:11:54

type of core that can scale between power

1:11:56

and efficiency modes and turn off entirely

1:11:58

and they override... the Windows Power Management

1:12:01

System. Do they call it so these types? No,

1:12:04

I think it's Turbo. No, I don't

1:12:06

want to speak back. Is there a Turbo button?

1:12:09

It's a DX processor I think. I

1:12:13

don't remember. I mean

1:12:16

obviously we won't until we get our hands on these. MMX. I

1:12:18

can do this all day, Lael. Thank you for sending me on. When

1:12:21

we get these Apple laptops, I'll

1:12:23

do benchmarks on them and we'll

1:12:25

get a better idea. Yeah. This stuff's

1:12:27

just getting better across the board. And honestly, I think Apple,

1:12:29

look, as much as people may resent

1:12:32

it in the PC space, this was exactly

1:12:34

the kick in the pants that everyone in

1:12:36

the industry needed from the operating system vendors

1:12:38

to the app writers to the most

1:12:40

important leadership centers, right? And

1:12:44

we'll see. We'll see what happens

1:12:46

with it. Apple did this when

1:12:48

they made the air the first time back in the

1:12:50

day, right, with their highly integrated

1:12:52

chip. No, you know, no modularity

1:12:56

at all. It's like what you get is what you get. You order

1:12:58

it and there's no memory expense or anything like

1:13:00

that. And it forced the PC makers

1:13:02

actually Intel finance

1:13:05

the PC makers of the world to make the ultra

1:13:07

book. Ultra book, yeah. Exactly. That's

1:13:10

exactly. They said, hey, build

1:13:12

a fully integrated machine. You get better about it. A

1:13:15

machine thin enough you can julienne fries with

1:13:17

it. And they've done it again

1:13:19

with the M series process. What did

1:13:22

you put everything on the same dime? And

1:13:24

I guess if I wanted to defend

1:13:26

Microsoft, I would say, well, that's because they have a

1:13:28

smaller market and they have a smaller risk.

1:13:31

And most of our revenue is from the iPhone

1:13:33

anyway. So experiment. Apple

1:13:37

is a hardware company in Microsoft. Well,

1:13:40

that's I got it. We're going

1:13:42

way off. Yeah. It's

1:13:44

CEO is a hardware guy, right? Like

1:13:47

him worked for Steve. He was

1:13:49

the guy who was the buyer. Yeah.

1:13:52

Well, he had come from, well, does anyone remember

1:13:54

where he came from? The company name.

1:13:57

His name was Dell, as I remember. No, compact.

1:14:00

Yeah, it should be in Dell. Yeah.

1:14:04

Which, well, HP bought new

1:15:00

or better GPU. But

1:15:03

Apple just said, we understand we're going to lose it. We'll

1:15:06

do it all for you. We'll do it all for you. I

1:15:09

know, you can absolutely upgrade

1:15:11

those things on an Apple device. You just have to buy a

1:15:13

new Apple device. Yes, okay. Right.

1:15:16

That's the upgrade path. But yeah, but

1:15:18

you see, that's a step the

1:15:21

PC industry wouldn't have taken ever,

1:15:23

because that was not the plan.

1:15:26

That was not how things worked. I

1:15:28

bet now we're going to start to see things like that happening.

1:15:30

It made a great, great rant years ago

1:15:32

about how the iPad saved the

1:15:34

laptop. Because before the iPad,

1:15:38

the race for the laptop was to get to the $500 laptop. Yeah, $500.

1:15:43

Yeah. Yeah,

1:15:45

it had thick, all plastic, like

1:15:47

just the worst. The netbook. This

1:15:49

was the netbook. They were terrible machines. And

1:15:52

then in came this $800. It

1:15:56

was so beautiful. And

1:15:58

you couldn't sell a laptop. In

1:16:00

that price range because you'll buy an iPad like why

1:16:02

we do it And so the in that sense

1:16:04

the I so the laptop recalibrated

1:16:06

as at least twelve hundred dollar device. Yeah

1:16:15

Yeah, so I I didn't turn

1:16:17

this into all praise Apple they don't do everything right

1:16:20

but I but There's

1:16:22

some there's all kinds of money that

1:16:24

brought you the new Okay,

1:16:27

well except it's not that company is it like oh that

1:16:29

was John Scully's company. We've come along

1:16:31

maybe it's a different company so I You

1:16:35

could probably say that Remember

1:16:38

that the Newton inspired Apple to

1:16:40

invest in start a little thing Acorn

1:16:43

risk machines which became arm and

1:16:46

and you could probably say that the iPhone was

1:16:48

is a direct like great great great great grandchild

1:16:51

of As much as we might

1:16:53

deprecate more like one of Thomas Jeffers enslaved

1:16:56

children But it's oh when

1:16:58

I do the futurist conversation, I always do

1:17:00

that line It's like is it a Newton or is it an iPhone?

1:17:03

Right, I'd like new neurons a good

1:17:05

with implant the product in a lot of respect It

1:17:07

was ahead of the technology and they released

1:17:10

it and that happens right up We get the Microsoft

1:17:12

you see this all the time. It's been a long time since they've done

1:17:14

that Well, no AI is that isn't it? I

1:17:16

mean, it's you know, maybe they're

1:17:18

doing it again It's a fair question to say are

1:17:20

these co-pilots all new No,

1:17:24

no, I've been saying that about Vision Pro

1:17:26

and Quest and all that too is the

1:17:28

way I know the Newton We've

1:17:31

been walking around that point which like these

1:17:33

does vision Pro going to be the AR

1:17:36

device or is it a new it's a Nick is

1:17:38

it I

1:17:40

don't think is that clear give me the killer app and I think

1:17:43

there's a bunch of developers working right now trying to find It

1:17:45

you know, I and I hope they succeed.

1:17:48

I'd like to get on with the AR world.

1:17:50

That'd be awesome I don't even mind

1:17:52

if it's Apple's device, but

1:17:54

you'll release the device without the software

1:17:57

You're punted. Yeah. Yeah, right

1:18:00

Should we talk

1:18:03

about Windows 12? Because that'll be fun. Let

1:18:07

me do a break and then Windows 12. Windows 12?

1:18:11

Really? But we aren't even

1:18:13

at 11 yet, are we? Look

1:18:16

I'm doing the Apple thing. The iPhone just

1:18:18

came out, we're looking at the next iPhone. Boy,

1:18:21

that's true in the Apple journalism space.

1:18:24

Before they even announced it practically, they were doing

1:18:26

a reverse for the iPhone 15. That's

1:18:29

incredible. Our

1:18:31

show today brought to you by Lookout. Lookout's

1:18:34

business has changed forever. Boundaries

1:18:37

to where we work or even how we work have

1:18:40

changed, disappeared. No more boundaries.

1:18:43

That means your data is always

1:18:45

on the move, whether it's on a device

1:18:47

in the cloud, across networks

1:18:49

or even at the local coffee shop. Now

1:18:52

that's great for your workforce, they love that.

1:18:55

It's a challenge for IT security, I think we can

1:18:57

agree. Lookout is the answer.

1:18:59

It helps you control your data

1:19:02

and for your workforce. With Lookout

1:19:04

you'll gain complete visibility into all your data

1:19:06

so you can minimize risk from external and

1:19:09

internal threats plus

1:19:11

ensure compliance. By seamlessly

1:19:14

securing hybrid work, your organization

1:19:17

doesn't have to sacrifice productivity

1:19:19

for security. Lookout makes

1:19:21

IT security and the

1:19:24

job of IT security a lot simpler. Now

1:19:26

if your IT department is,

1:19:28

and it probably is right now, working with multiple

1:19:31

point solutions and legacy tools, that's

1:19:34

just too complex. You know a complexity

1:19:36

leads to missing things, errors

1:19:40

and ultimately holes in your security. Lookout's

1:19:43

single unified platform reduces

1:19:46

that IT complexity which means

1:19:48

you can, A, you're going to be more secure and B,

1:19:50

you can focus more on whatever else comes your way.

1:19:53

You're ready. Good data

1:19:55

protection shouldn't be a cage, it's

1:19:57

a springboard letting you

1:19:59

and your organization bound toward the

1:20:01

future of your making.

1:20:04

Visit Lookout.com today to learn how to safeguard

1:20:06

data, secure hybrid work,

1:20:09

and reduce IT complexity. Lookout.com.

1:20:13

We thank you so much for supporting Windows Weekly, and

1:20:15

invite you to go there and check it out

1:20:18

and support us too. Lookout.com.

1:20:23

We now return you to Mexico City and

1:20:25

Madera, or Madpa? Madpa?

1:20:29

Madpa, B.C. Paul

1:20:31

Therot, Richard Campbell, and Windows 12!

1:20:36

I like the term springboard from the app.

1:20:39

Isn't that good? Springboard. Microsoft

1:20:42

used to have a springboard program. Oh

1:20:44

yeah, what was that? It was to get

1:20:46

people to move to Windows 7. Oh. They

1:20:50

didn't really need it. Everyone wanted to move to

1:20:52

Windows 7, so that worked out fine.

1:20:54

Yeah.

1:20:56

So that brings up the

1:20:59

specter of the every other

1:21:01

Microsoft version rule

1:21:04

of thumb. The Star

1:21:07

Trek movie rule. Every other

1:21:09

one is good. Every other one is garbage, and

1:21:11

every other one is good. So let me think. 7

1:21:14

was good, 8 was bad. 10 was good.

1:21:16

Was 11 bad? I think 11

1:21:18

was bad at release. It's there. I

1:21:22

think 11 is as good as 10. Windows 7

1:21:24

is 10. Yeah. A

1:21:28

lot of little day-to-day

1:21:30

workflows that were removed in

1:21:32

the initial version of Windows 11 that screwed

1:21:34

people up. And there's still some in

1:21:36

there. It had to be put back.

1:21:38

Yeah.

1:21:39

They responded. Remember, we talked

1:21:41

about this a few weeks ago. Complain, Microsoft. Tied

1:21:45

to their no API left behind. If

1:21:47

enough people complain, we'll change things,

1:21:49

right? Put them back. They're

1:21:52

pretty good at that. I mean, I give them a little credit for that. Yeah,

1:21:56

so because of everything that's going on with

1:21:58

Windows 11, 20... 3h2

1:22:01

and all the AI stuff and I started looking

1:22:03

back, you know We forget

1:22:05

this because this year happened in such a blur

1:22:07

I think for a lot of people this year began in February

1:22:09

when Microsoft announced Bing chat

1:22:12

and and then You

1:22:15

know rifle to the rest of the year with Microsoft 365

1:22:19

Copilot and build and all the announcements there and Windows

1:22:21

co-pilot and and we raced into

1:22:23

the fall with all this stuff But actually there

1:22:26

were hints of this coming before then, you know

1:22:28

So back in January Sachin

1:22:31

Adela talked about adding chat

1:22:34

GPT capabilities This is the open AI

1:22:36

technology that we knew Microsoft was

1:22:38

investing in but didn't know they were getting ready

1:22:40

to kind of integrate everything

1:22:43

right He talked about putting it

1:22:45

in every Microsoft product and

1:22:48

I started writing about AI at that

1:22:50

time before when you know being in all that stuff

1:22:53

and I I Talked about how AI

1:22:55

might be the next wave that thing Terry

1:22:57

Myers and used to talk about Microsoft

1:22:59

had missed the smartphone

1:23:02

wave They wanted

1:23:04

to make sure they didn't miss the next wave. There

1:23:06

was a brief period of time where that could have been Digital

1:23:09

assistance like they had Cortana that didn't

1:23:11

happen They're late. Yeah,

1:23:14

and they got there late too And now

1:23:16

the theory may maybe a theory

1:23:19

actually I came over this area. I'm sure others have to it's not just

1:23:21

me But you know, maybe AI and now increasingly

1:23:24

obvious AI probably is the next wave And

1:23:26

so months ago or not much

1:23:28

I read around the time Microsoft announced

1:23:31

Bing

1:23:33

chat I

1:23:35

wrote this is Windows 10 Predicting

1:23:39

that Microsoft would release an AI focused

1:23:41

version of Windows that they would call what

1:23:43

they should say Windows 10 Yeah, when is why

1:23:45

did I'm sorry Windows 12? Right and

1:23:48

and and we were talking live on this

1:23:50

show and I sort of blurted out maybe

1:23:54

They would require an NPU. Maybe they

1:23:56

just tested this hardware compatibility

1:23:59

block on the list

1:23:59

What

1:24:00

if they did the same thing for 12

1:24:03

but for an NPU? Now

1:24:06

logically of course you scale that back and your brain

1:24:08

you think there's no way there's gonna do something like that and

1:24:10

the delta between the release of TPM 2.0

1:24:13

and its requirement in Windows 11 is several

1:24:15

years at least it might be over 10 years.

1:24:18

A lot of years. So that's rapid

1:24:21

but the thing that's interesting

1:24:23

is Microsoft has never once uttered the term Windows 12

1:24:26

this year ever not once but there have been

1:24:28

multiple times where they appear to be

1:24:30

talking about exactly that. They refer

1:24:32

to these things as like some future Windows.

1:24:35

But they in turn normally they will always talk about V

1:24:38

next. You never know what's gonna be. Yeah

1:24:40

right. I find it fascinating

1:24:42

almost a year later now that we still

1:24:45

have never heard anyone say Windows 12 even

1:24:47

though we all out here in the community are like you know what's

1:24:50

happening you know what's happening. That's

1:24:52

also because they're really they are

1:24:54

late getting people moving to 11 specifically

1:24:57

enterprise. Yeah but you know what you

1:24:59

know. If anybody

1:25:02

said the word 12 a lot of enterprise are gonna go we're

1:25:04

waiting for 12. This is

1:25:06

the I think the push

1:25:08

that they need even if it's fairly arbitrary

1:25:11

where you're resetting a support cycle they're

1:25:14

gonna be upgrading hardware anyway. It's

1:25:16

fully compatible it's gonna be another entitlement package

1:25:18

right it's gonna be on the same build chain whatever. This

1:25:21

has been proven over multiple years now

1:25:23

it's stable the hardware compat is

1:25:25

there. I think that's what we'll do

1:25:27

it and honest it doesn't have to be too much more

1:25:29

than Windows 11 version I guess 4. It'll

1:25:32

be 10.2 to be clear. Yeah

1:25:35

there you go. Yeah that is actually

1:25:37

pretty accurate. But I keep waiting

1:25:39

for someone to slip up they've come so close

1:25:41

there are so many times the Qualcomm event

1:25:43

was another one. Another great time. But

1:25:46

then they just they sort of

1:25:48

you know. Pretty sure they don't know. I mean here's

1:25:50

the here's the essential problem with that. What's

1:25:53

the NPU gonna do. Right that's

1:25:55

that the killer app. Exactly this is the problem

1:25:57

is in large language models which is. the

1:26:00

current excitement in the

1:26:02

artificial intelligence space. And I loathe

1:26:04

to use a term because it's a terrible term, but

1:26:07

large language models

1:26:08

are massive.

1:26:09

They have to run in the cloud. They're

1:26:11

changing.

1:26:12

And so they're not going to fit in your MPU, but

1:26:14

unless your, your MPU is going to be more

1:26:16

powerful than the rest of the computer combined by miles,

1:26:19

it's to be able to run an LLL locally. It's

1:26:21

just like, it's math. So

1:26:23

I mean here, I agree with you

1:26:25

in the sense of the next version of Windows

1:26:27

could be hugely the, you want

1:26:29

to make an OS roll over again, put

1:26:32

an LLM as its principal interface. What

1:26:34

do you need to do today? Yeah. And

1:26:37

let it die. I don't know. Did

1:26:39

you either of you, I mean, I

1:26:41

know both of you probably are, you know,

1:26:43

know that Google a month ago, whatever launched

1:26:45

a new generation of pixel phones. And

1:26:47

one of the things they sort of previewed mentioned

1:26:51

anyway, was that this would be the first phone

1:26:53

that would have a reduced LLM

1:26:56

that would fit on

1:26:58

the device. Right. And

1:27:00

we, we don't know, but we've heard rumors

1:27:02

that Microsoft because, you know, things

1:27:05

like Bing chat and Bing image create and

1:27:07

windows co-pilot are free, ad

1:27:09

supported, doesn't really pay the bills and AI

1:27:11

is expensive, that they too

1:27:14

are looking at what was, I think at the information,

1:27:16

how to report on this, these mini AI

1:27:18

is right. That would kind of reduce, I

1:27:20

know help reduce the load a bit,

1:27:23

right? The problem with an

1:27:26

LLM on the internet is the internet is

1:27:28

essentially infinite. You

1:27:31

know, the nice thing about something

1:27:34

like Microsoft 365 co-pilot, if you're

1:27:36

sticking within your organization, is

1:27:38

that you have a nice

1:27:39

concrete

1:27:41

set of data, right? It may be

1:27:43

coming from a bunch of different places, but it's still, it's

1:27:45

not the internet. Now it does in fact

1:27:48

bring in the internet too, but if you could make

1:27:51

this thing make sense for specific tasks,

1:27:54

the stupid version of that is

1:27:56

just, it does not involve an LLM, but like the

1:27:59

windows studio effects. that they have on the RMPCs,

1:28:02

background blur, etc. I think what they want to

1:28:04

do is look at

1:28:06

specific

1:28:08

features, I guess I'll call it, just like some of the

1:28:10

AI features that are in photos and the

1:28:12

paint app now and

1:28:14

accelerate those things and do so

1:28:17

in a way. And you know, and you're reminding me of the

1:28:19

1970s version of artificial intelligence with

1:28:22

expert system. Yeah, right. I'm

1:28:25

going to ask you this dumb question again, because

1:28:27

I ask you every time. The

1:28:29

model that you train, you train

1:28:32

in the cloud because you need lots of data

1:28:35

and you need an infinite

1:28:37

amount of data. But you can create a model,

1:28:39

Stable Diffusions models are 1.6 gigabytes. I

1:28:42

can run Stable Diffusion on a phone. Yeah, that's

1:28:44

what I'm saying. And Google has,

1:28:46

and they even said this at, whatever it

1:28:48

is, Google I.O., how they've really

1:28:50

gotten good at compressing these models

1:28:53

that, you know, you create on the cloud so that they can

1:28:55

run on the phone. But then you can kind of port a smaller

1:28:57

version of it to a device of whatever kind. Right.

1:29:00

Because we're going to have these done. But Richard, you said you need a lot.

1:29:02

I mean, you don't want to run AI on

1:29:05

a phone. The reason we're talking about how

1:29:08

expensive LLMs are and

1:29:10

so forth is because they are terabyte sized models.

1:29:12

Right. Yeah. Stable

1:29:15

Diffusion works with a 1.6 gigabyte

1:29:17

model. Here's a, actually, here's

1:29:19

a historical example. I think that everyone will

1:29:21

understand and super simplifies this conversation,

1:29:24

which is that when Microsoft was moving to

1:29:26

what became Windows Vista, the big talk at that time

1:29:28

was hardware accelerated graphics. Right.

1:29:31

Apple had done it on the Mac and embarrassed Windows. Windows

1:29:34

XP had a bit mapped UI

1:29:36

that was fixed size. It looked like something you would

1:29:38

have created as a child in Microsoft Paint

1:29:40

by comparison. Right. So this is

1:29:43

a big thing. They have to do hardware

1:29:45

resolution independent graphics, hardware accelerated

1:29:47

graphics, all this kind of stuff. If you

1:29:49

have a GPU, an early GPU on a computer

1:29:52

that could run Windows Vista and you could display arrow

1:29:54

glass, which was that see-through kind of transparent

1:29:56

UI,

1:29:57

you could actually have better performance.

1:29:59

battery life because you were taking the load off

1:30:02

of the CPU, right? And

1:30:04

I look at MPUs in the same way. There are going

1:30:06

to be these specific tasks that

1:30:08

you're going to take the load, processing

1:30:11

load off of the GPU in this case

1:30:13

or the CPU depending on what you might have otherwise. And

1:30:15

that the MPU is just specifically

1:30:18

designed to handle those types of computations

1:30:21

or whatever, right? And that's the

1:30:23

result. That's the goal, right? And Microsoft

1:30:26

should be all over this because it's

1:30:28

how you charge less. So

1:30:30

there's processing MPU

1:30:33

but there's also the data sets. For

1:30:36

instance, ChatGPT 4, do we know how big

1:30:38

that data set is that it's using? No, they've kept it

1:30:40

a secret because it's multiple. Yeah,

1:30:43

it's a private company with a very Google like

1:30:46

investing scheme. So when I use ChatGPT

1:30:49

on my phone, it's slower

1:30:52

because it's connecting to the server and

1:30:55

then I can talk to it and then it just

1:30:57

a few seconds later it comes back with an answer. I

1:31:00

would also argue that GPT 4

1:31:02

especially was a brute force approach to,

1:31:04

well, if 3 was good, making it

1:31:07

seven times bigger will be better. Even

1:31:09

when they built 3 at the time, Mark

1:31:12

Resinovich was on record as saying, we built the fifth

1:31:15

largest supercomputer in the world inside

1:31:17

of Azure to build MPP 3. That

1:31:21

was training. Then there's a trained data

1:31:23

set which by the way is frozen in time

1:31:26

and that frozen in time data set then gets

1:31:28

moved onto another server but that could be

1:31:30

terabytes. But I would also argue

1:31:33

that this is a generalized model because

1:31:35

they're experimenting. Most

1:31:37

of the AI that we do right now though is things

1:31:39

and I know I can do it on phone like

1:31:42

speech to text. Or removing

1:31:45

an object from a photo. Removing an object or

1:31:47

removing sound in the background. All those things that

1:31:49

Pixel 8 can do. The stuff that I think

1:31:52

requires the bigger models, even

1:31:54

dumb things like tell me a joke. Which

1:31:56

I technically could be as stupid as a table

1:31:59

of jokes. But the assumption

1:32:01

is that it's not, that it's literally generating something

1:32:03

based on topic. That would have to be a

1:32:05

chat GPT-3. It would have to be a four-sized model.

1:32:08

Right? It would have to be. Yeah.

1:32:11

I mean, the question is, and I think this is what the experiments that

1:32:13

are going on right now, is when

1:32:16

you start working on a specific data set, whether

1:32:18

it's a particular role like manipulating

1:32:20

an image or a specific data set like

1:32:22

your company data, can you use

1:32:25

a simpler language model, a smaller one? And

1:32:27

that's the, maybe that's the, you know, that's, by the way, that's

1:32:29

a great point. So like a Microsoft 365

1:32:32

co-pilot implementation that uses

1:32:34

an MPU, you could also

1:32:36

have MPUs that would be sized to

1:32:38

different enterprise sizes or something. Also

1:32:42

ironically, the things that, the productivity

1:32:44

things you want to do probably do work fine

1:32:46

with a smaller model. It's that very

1:32:49

general AGI where

1:32:51

you wanted to tell a joke or tell me a story

1:32:53

or something that takes time. Well, but

1:32:56

it's not even close to AGI.

1:33:00

Okay. What would be, yeah, you're right.

1:33:05

But in other words, the more general and

1:33:07

the less useful, the bigger

1:33:11

the future of AI is hybrid. Right.

1:33:15

cloud. Yeah. The

1:33:17

parallel I see from work I've done in the past is data

1:33:20

warehousing and OLAP cubes where we

1:33:22

always initially built like the mother

1:33:25

of all cubes, this gigantic thing.

1:33:27

Cause we weren't sure exactly what we wanted

1:33:29

and it cost a fortune to build. It took years to put together.

1:33:32

And out of that, you learned enough about your

1:33:34

data to then carve off these smaller,

1:33:37

incredibly useful cubes that

1:33:39

were cheaper to run and could run more

1:33:41

locally. Like everything was better. And GPT-4

1:33:44

feels like one of those mother of all cubes approaches.

1:33:47

And now we're looking around at saying, well, what pieces

1:33:49

can we hack off and do you know, maybe, right.

1:33:52

It becomes about making it efficient, right? Or

1:33:55

maybe efficient to specific implementations

1:33:58

or specific. And you say

1:34:00

efficient. That's what you're talking about. It's like, why need

1:34:02

all of this or smaller and

1:34:04

faster, right? And less expensive. Right.

1:34:06

Yeah. And it's part of the reason you really don't hear about

1:34:08

a GPT five. It's like from what

1:34:11

to where, where would it fit? What's

1:34:14

the next order of magnitude? They're building it

1:34:16

in space. I

1:34:19

don't know. So I'm

1:34:21

excited about all of this because also a point

1:34:24

of maturity is when you say,

1:34:26

Hey, we don't need to get bigger. In fact, there's places

1:34:28

for us to get small. Yeah. Only still

1:34:31

on the race to just, I think you're right. I

1:34:33

think maybe they've crested that Hill, right?

1:34:35

That's what it feels like. That's

1:34:39

good news. But I do feel like the

1:34:41

problem with these MPUs is you, you're

1:34:43

still struggling from the workload to know

1:34:45

what the MPU needs to look like. And

1:34:48

it may only be a few months away. This is

1:34:50

the problem for people that want to adopt this stuff

1:34:52

early. Um, you'll get a first gen

1:34:55

MPU based PC and you're going to want another

1:34:57

one in a year or two, you know, but you know

1:34:59

you're my favorite kind of customer. Yeah. It's

1:35:03

one of the ways you can go. And let's face it, like if mid

1:35:05

journey or Dali will run well

1:35:08

locally on that machine, that

1:35:10

should be enough. That's

1:35:13

what Qualcomm showed off by the way, if there are, I

1:35:16

started a pre briefing, but the, Oh no,

1:35:18

wait, I started this, I've been earlier in the

1:35:20

year. Um, it doesn't matter, but I

1:35:22

saw a demo where they did that

1:35:24

locally on a, on a, arm based

1:35:27

PC. And, um, I mean,

1:35:29

that's a nice step. You know, it's step

1:35:32

and he is speaking to the right size. So, and

1:35:34

then the next step is can you run crisis on it? I

1:35:36

mean, it's pretty much those

1:35:39

are the two steps. Well,

1:35:44

um, I have, I looked for this during

1:35:46

the commercial break. Um, micro

1:35:48

it's November 1st as we recorded Microsoft

1:35:51

is supposedly my pilot, Paul. Yeah.

1:35:53

And if you go to the Microsoft 365 blog, they've

1:35:56

changed as I looked, but there's no new, there

1:35:58

isn't an announcement post it's from September. So

1:36:00

I have questions

1:36:03

about this thing. I

1:36:05

will say of the Microsoft co-pilots

1:36:08

from a productivity standpoint, this is the one that's

1:36:10

the most exciting for all the obvious reasons, right? There

1:36:13

is this chat experience they built into it called

1:36:15

Microsoft 365 chat that works

1:36:17

across all the apps. It allows you to prompt

1:36:20

the AI as you do with Bing chat to

1:36:23

find out information from your organization internally, right? Email,

1:36:26

meeting, chats, documents, whatever. I

1:36:29

think that stuff is cool. There are very specific features for

1:36:31

all of the core office apps. Outlook, Word,

1:36:34

PowerPoint, Excel, some

1:36:36

goofy apps too, like I think Loop. Loop

1:36:40

is very exciting. I've been living more in Loop.

1:36:43

Okay, that's interesting. I

1:36:45

want to get there and I've not been able to. It

1:36:47

may be incredibly different. Yeah,

1:36:50

so there's all this stuff. Everyone talks about the expense.

1:36:53

It's a legit thing to talk about. I mean, this initial

1:36:56

version targets enterprises for the most part. There

1:36:58

is actually a system where small businesses could get involved

1:37:00

with this. I thought there was a minimum number of seats.

1:37:03

That was the question I had because I can't

1:37:05

get a clear answer on this one. The number

1:37:08

I heard flying around was minimum 300 seats. Get

1:37:11

that from a data-sized perspective. Like

1:37:13

if you're really going to do this thing where you're

1:37:15

going to analyze the graph, it

1:37:18

becomes a librarian of your company. If

1:37:20

you're good at math, do

1:37:23

this for me then. 300 times 30, that's easiest, is about 9,000. Times 36

1:37:28

is about 90, probably 100

1:37:31

something thousand. That's your minimum

1:37:33

cost per month because you need a Microsoft

1:37:36

every user. It has to be on

1:37:39

E3 at least, that's $36 per user per month. The

1:37:42

co-pilot upsell is 30 bucks per user per month.

1:37:45

And then you need 300 of them. That's right. So

1:37:48

that's the minimum. 20 grand a month. We're

1:37:51

talking about a lot of money. Listen,

1:37:53

you were already paying the 36 because

1:37:55

that's why people do the work. The

1:37:58

adding, doubling the price essentially. with the additional $30. The

1:38:01

always the question is, are you getting the productivity

1:38:03

boost? And as you know, right. And

1:38:06

if you look at the number that seems to be coming out

1:38:08

of the GitHub co-pilot space, like

1:38:10

when I'm now we're seeing more and more developers

1:38:12

working routinely, is a 30% improvement

1:38:15

in productivity. Yeah, this is something I, a

1:38:18

lot of most of my audience is not developers. And I kind

1:38:20

of, I live in this space a little bit. I'm, it's

1:38:22

a weird slant that I have. But

1:38:25

even in the goofy software development that I

1:38:27

have done, I have, I don't want to waste

1:38:30

it, but I, but I've spent so

1:38:32

much time Googling something, going

1:38:34

to stack or overflow or whatever one of the other

1:38:36

top five sites are reading the

1:38:39

answers, reading the answers to the answers

1:38:41

and reading and realizing that one wasn't doing it and

1:38:43

looking at the ones that are top rated trying and really

1:38:46

know that doesn't work either. And the

1:38:48

idea of not just not having to

1:38:50

go somewhere else and find this and spend that time,

1:38:52

but to have it happen in line. Yeah.

1:38:55

So everything else AI related of

1:38:58

this type and this would include productivity

1:39:00

work, right? Software development is sort of

1:39:02

like that, right? As long, you have to

1:39:04

always kind of asterix it as long

1:39:06

as it's right. Yes. Right.

1:39:09

Or accurate. And something like 25% of the time it

1:39:12

is wildly wrong. Yeah. So

1:39:15

I, I think we all agree it's probably going

1:39:17

to get there. We may disagree on how fast that

1:39:19

happens, whatever, but. My argument

1:39:21

has been a, software developers already good at criticizing

1:39:24

code from other sources full stop. So that's

1:39:26

the compiler. I'll please get

1:39:28

us, get to say, I was going to say between a compiling

1:39:31

and actually running the app and using it. I

1:39:33

mean, you can figure out if code doesn't work wildly,

1:39:36

depending on the least of your problems

1:39:38

because you can see that or the compiler will see

1:39:40

that it's the subtly wrong

1:39:43

that introduces a security flaw that nobody discovers

1:39:45

for five years that you really should be worried

1:39:48

about even though you wrote the prompt

1:39:50

to say and make sure my code is. Yeah.

1:39:53

Right. And you've created your due diligence

1:39:55

there. We had a great episode

1:39:58

last week on, I'm sorry. on

1:40:00

security now, looking at a

1:40:02

long-standing bug in Citrix

1:40:06

and which had been zero dated

1:40:08

and widely used. And it was simply

1:40:11

because the guy assumed that SN

1:40:14

print F would return a string,

1:40:17

well it does return a string of a proper

1:40:19

length because it's

1:40:21

safe. But the

1:40:24

value it returns is the length that it

1:40:26

parsed which may be longer

1:40:28

than the string and then this

1:40:30

guy foolishly instead of testing the length that

1:40:32

it parsed used the length that it parsed

1:40:35

to allocate a buffer and put the string in.

1:40:38

And so it's a classic old

1:40:40

school. Subtle error, easy

1:40:42

to make. You could probably get that on

1:40:44

Stack Overflow pretty quick

1:40:46

and the thing is the code works

1:40:49

just fine until somebody tries

1:40:51

to break it intentionally.

1:40:54

So I think this is in the notes.

1:40:59

Here's the product. So it's

1:41:01

a little further down but let me just jump to this right now because

1:41:03

there's an example of what

1:41:06

you just described that will impact a

1:41:08

lot more people directly.

1:41:11

A programming error like that will actually impact a lot of

1:41:13

people indirectly when they run

1:41:15

the software. My

1:41:17

wife and I are professional writers and we

1:41:19

both rely on Microsoft Word and whatever correction

1:41:23

technologies it has built in to help

1:41:25

us find grammar, spelling, tone, whatever type

1:41:27

errors. I publish almost

1:41:29

universally to the web and so I use

1:41:31

something called Grammarly which is a plugin

1:41:34

for web browsers. It's sponsored. You give it? Yes.

1:41:37

They're fantastic. Well we'll get to that. They're

1:41:39

fantastic. They're better than Word. I'll put

1:41:42

it that way. So they do a second pass. The

1:41:44

article I wrote about this topic, probably

1:41:46

2,000-3,000 words maybe, Grammarly as it always

1:41:50

does found between 12 and 15 errors

1:41:52

that Microsoft Word did not catch. Microsoft Word

1:41:55

which celebrated 4th anniversary last week

1:41:57

that is the the

1:42:00

most powerful word processor

1:42:02

on the planet has really been certified

1:42:04

when it comes to this kind of thing.

1:42:05

Now,

1:42:06

I am that person that everyone talks

1:42:08

about with AI, that person that stands

1:42:11

behind between sorry, what AI

1:42:13

says and what goes out to the world. I know

1:42:16

enough about writing to know. You're the

1:42:18

human. I know how often it's wrong.

1:42:22

The problem is most people aren't

1:42:24

professional writers. Right. In this

1:42:26

case, I'm just talking about words. You could apply this to Excel,

1:42:29

anything else. Imagine

1:42:31

the writing that could occur, that could start

1:42:33

worse, that could kill people, literally

1:42:36

kill people. The bad writing, the

1:42:38

wrong writing, right? That could give bad medical

1:42:40

advice, that could invent

1:42:43

a legal defense that doesn't exist, that

1:42:45

could issue a ruling that would cause

1:42:47

criminals to get out of jail. You

1:42:49

go on and on and on. That's why you need effort.

1:42:52

This is why you need that person. So this is the problem.

1:42:55

And seriously,

1:42:59

it's simply stated, everyone knows this

1:43:01

is the problem, but we also have to acknowledge

1:43:03

we know that most people aren't

1:43:06

going to do it. They're not

1:43:08

going to stand between the AI and the output.

1:43:10

Right. I think they're going

1:43:12

to copy and paste. But they're already doing that from Stack Overflow.

1:43:15

I mean... Yes, of course.

1:43:17

I mean, the nice thing about code in

1:43:19

a way, although your exception proves this

1:43:22

point to be false, is that at

1:43:24

least as a developer, you can run code and sort of see it.

1:43:26

And hopefully, you're doing that due diligence

1:43:28

on the other end. At least

1:43:31

when it comes to security, most of these flaws are

1:43:33

so subtle. For instance, one of

1:43:35

the big bugs was in,

1:43:37

I think it was Heartbleed

1:43:39

in OpenSSH, was because they used reference

1:43:43

code from Intel. Right. And

1:43:45

Intel wrote the reference code. It's good code, and

1:43:47

wrote it without them shaking. And I'm sure they said there is

1:43:49

no security to... There's this reference

1:43:52

code. You see this all the time in

1:43:54

sample code. Look, I'm

1:43:56

trying to make a point here in the book. I'm not

1:43:58

trying to...

1:44:00

You write the full app that will be secure

1:44:02

and will, you know, support all the different libraries.

1:44:05

It's just a little thing. You should rewrite this. You should

1:44:07

not use it. No one does. That's

1:44:09

my point. No one does. Nobody does. Everybody

1:44:12

just uses it. Nobody does it. And that's

1:44:14

what it's awful. So, Grammarly is better

1:44:17

than Word. Microsoft

1:44:19

has a... I'm glad I caught distance.

1:44:22

That was very smart actually. I saw these. I

1:44:24

mean, it's crazy. Some of the... My wife

1:44:26

and I, because we're writers and because we are not particularly

1:44:29

entertaining, will yell word

1:44:31

mistakes to each other down the hall from our respective

1:44:34

offices. I love that. And if we're trying to write each

1:44:36

other... That's what I'm already at your place. Yeah.

1:44:39

We're fascinating. It's

1:44:42

gotten worse. The problem is it's gotten worse.

1:44:45

And it's weird that this is happening just as Microsoft

1:44:48

is pushing AI. And it's a

1:44:50

little simplistic. But I always sort of say

1:44:52

to myself the same thing. I don't understand how I'm

1:44:55

going to trust your AI if you can't spell check

1:44:57

properly. You know, it doesn't

1:44:59

make any sense. Yeah. Well,

1:45:01

in a way, it's essentially spell checking kind

1:45:03

of... That's what I'm saying. AI.

1:45:06

Think about... Go back in time 20 years ago. Grammar

1:45:09

checking. 30 years ago. 30 years ago,

1:45:11

right? So, Microsoft word spelled check

1:45:13

back in the day, in the early days of Windows 3 and 3.1, right?

1:45:17

You know, it was just the table of words. Yeah, we'd check it

1:45:19

against the word list and say, well, that's not in the word list. Once

1:45:21

you move into something like... Right. But

1:45:23

once you move into grammar, you get into some actual

1:45:25

hard computer science. Yeah. And

1:45:28

you don't understand tense and purpose

1:45:30

and context. It's hard to... And

1:45:34

you know, word is honestly has always done a pretty good job.

1:45:37

I wouldn't even expect word to get this distance

1:45:39

right. I'm impressed

1:45:42

that Grammarly did, frankly. It's

1:45:44

astonishing how much it gets wrong. Like it's

1:45:46

astonishing. And that's probably

1:45:48

because Grammarly knows that phrase in the distant

1:45:51

past. And so it's...

1:45:53

But how does word not... You're telling me that this thing's been around

1:45:55

for 40 years. And you're not better at this than this brand

1:45:58

new thing? And it wants to put the in front of... lockstep.

1:46:00

Hey it's a noun, words are definitive

1:46:03

vertical. Yeah

1:46:05

I don't do this anymore but there was a long period of time

1:46:07