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0:54

The last week was a rerelease

0:56

of the show with Jason Haas from

0:59

Toddless Creek and it was around regenerative

1:01

agriculture and a bunch of other things

1:03

that have to do with the

1:06

holistic health of a vineyard and of a farm

1:08

and all that kind of stuff. And

1:11

I was thinking about that. And then

1:13

at the same time, I am

1:16

currently working on a project where I am

1:18

uploading all of the podcasts onto Patreon because

1:20

originally I had done it through a third

1:23

party and it's not working out as well

1:25

as I had hoped. So we're going to

1:27

actually have all the podcasts live on Patreon.

1:29

It'll be searchable. It'll be a lot easier.

1:32

So when you join Patreon, you could just

1:34

go in and listen right away because all

1:36

of the old episodes of the

1:38

podcast are now only available to patrons. You

1:40

have to be a patron in order to gain access

1:43

to them. And now they will actually just live on Patreon.

1:45

So you don't have to do anything. You just have to

1:47

search and they're categorized and all this kind of stuff. So

1:49

it's great. But one of the things

1:51

that I noticed is that it has

1:53

been a really frickin'

1:55

long time since I

1:57

have covered organic biodynamic.

2:00

Regenerative, of course, now, which

2:03

wasn't even in the first iteration

2:05

of this. And then also some

2:07

definitions around vegan wine and natural

2:09

wine and all these other things.

2:11

Sustainability. There are a lot of

2:13

things to cover and there's a

2:16

lot of new certifications, some of

2:18

which are quite important, especially in

2:20

Europe. So I

2:22

want to take the

2:24

opportunity to update what

2:26

is going on in

2:28

the definitions and the

2:30

world of biodynamic, organic,

2:32

sustainable farming and now regenerative farming.

2:34

So we're going to go over some of

2:36

the history of biodynamics. We are going to

2:38

talk about sustainability and we are going to

2:41

talk about organics. That will be the bulk

2:43

of the show and then we'll cover some

2:45

of the other stuff. So before we get

2:47

into this very dork out topic, a couple

2:49

of things. First of all, new

2:52

classes are posted. The patrons

2:54

have really gobbled a lot of them

2:56

up. So if you are interested, there's

2:58

volcanic wines, Riesling is going quickly. We've

3:01

got some other classes up. So that's

3:03

winefornormalpeople.com/classes. And I do want to give

3:05

shout outs as we do every week.

3:07

As I say, the attitude of gratitude,

3:09

we have to be thankful to the

3:11

people who make this podcast possible. Hopefully

3:14

if you are not one of these people that you

3:16

will consider joining the community, patreon.com/winefornormalpeople.

3:19

And let me just give

3:21

some shout outs now to

3:23

our new patrons. Welcome

3:26

to the community. Daniel,

3:28

Tina S. McNeil P.

3:30

Krog, John S. Joe

3:32

M. Chris, Cynthia C.

3:34

Nick, Megan L. Maddie

3:36

A. Petra S. Lauren

3:39

O. Lisa K. Silvio

3:41

C. Jeffrey D. Roy,

3:44

Leslie B. J. P. Tim

3:46

B. Leslie C. Andrew

3:48

E. and Elizabeth H.

3:51

Thank you all so much. We

3:53

are really excited to have you in the

3:55

community and I'm excited to get to know

3:58

you. Feel free to direct message me. anytime.

4:01

Also quick plug, Wine

4:03

Access is having a big push and a

4:05

big sale for you to join the Wine

4:08

Access Wine for Normal People Wine Club. They're

4:10

giving you $25 off

4:12

the first two shipments. If

4:14

you're interested in that go

4:17

to wineaccess.com/normal. So let's talk

4:19

about organic, biodynamic, sustainable,

4:21

blah blah blah everything. It is

4:23

very confusing and very technical. I'm

4:26

gonna do my best to break

4:28

all of this down. There is

4:30

farming and then there's wine making

4:32

and we really need to be

4:35

clear about what these certifications are

4:38

certifying. Are they certifying farming?

4:41

Are they certifying wine making? Are they

4:43

certifying part of wine making? The organic

4:45

world has a bunch of certifications but

4:48

the practice is largely the same

4:50

regardless of which one you get.

4:52

Same with biodynamic. Sustainability on the

4:54

other hand varies really really widely.

4:57

So all of those certifications kind

4:59

of need to be looked at

5:01

if that's something that is important

5:03

to you because they don't all

5:05

characterize or classify the same things

5:07

as being important. There are two

5:10

main schools of thought. If you've

5:12

already thought okay well it's biodynamic and organic

5:14

you're absolutely right. Those are the major topics

5:16

that I'm gonna concentrate on. But I have

5:19

to say that the most widely used

5:21

type of wine certifications that are better

5:24

for the planet are sustainability and I

5:26

am going to be spending some time

5:28

on that because especially in Europe there

5:30

are a lot of really great certifications

5:33

that have some teeth and that do

5:35

the job of trying to

5:37

reward people for doing better for the

5:40

earth, for people who work for them

5:42

and for the community. Okay so let's

5:44

dive in. I want to start out

5:47

with this. Traditional

5:49

farming. I like

5:51

this term. Traditional

5:53

farming is the

5:55

original agriculture. This is the

5:57

thing that's been practiced for

6:00

tens of thousands of years. And

6:03

because there were no inorganic

6:05

ways to do farming, all

6:08

of it was organic and it was

6:10

done since prehistoric times. As soon as

6:12

humans started to settle down and

6:15

do crops and stop

6:17

being hunter-gatherers, traditional farming

6:20

is the way that they did

6:22

it. And again, there were no

6:24

chemical inputs. So this is the

6:26

longest stretch of farming that we

6:28

have. And yes, it is organic.

6:31

Then we have the industrial

6:33

revolution. The industrial revolution introduced

6:36

inorganic methods and most were

6:38

not very well developed. The

6:40

idea was there, but most of

6:43

them had really serious side effects.

6:45

There were chemical sprays, there

6:48

were GMO, you know, genetically

6:50

modified organisms, any means necessary

6:52

to get the crop out as

6:55

long as you don't kill somebody. That

6:58

was really the idea behind now what

7:00

is called conventional farming as opposed to

7:02

traditional farming, which is the OG. Now,

7:06

everything else that comes

7:08

after these two definitions is

7:11

a reaction to conventional farming.

7:14

So as soon as conventional

7:16

farming started to become popularized,

7:19

they're almost immediately after came

7:21

a group of people that

7:23

noticed that things were changing

7:26

in terms of the soil,

7:29

in terms of human health, in

7:31

terms of how things looked, it

7:33

was essentially poison for the land.

7:36

And almost immediately you had

7:38

people saying, this doesn't seem

7:41

like it's right. Again, conventional

7:43

farming has gotten a lot

7:45

better, but still there is

7:47

definitely a difference and everything

7:50

else, biodynamic, organic, regenerative, sustainable,

7:52

are all reactions to conventional

7:54

farming. Let's talk about biodynamic

7:56

first. Why am I going

7:58

to talk about this? first because

8:01

it came before any

8:04

of the other ideas that we

8:06

are going to talk about. Biodynamics

8:08

history really is based off of

8:10

this idea of traditional farming practices.

8:13

This school of thought

8:15

was inspired by Rudolf Steiner. This

8:17

guy was a little bit weird.

8:19

I'm not going to lie. He

8:21

was an Austrian philosopher and educator.

8:24

He was also a scientist in

8:27

the first part of his career.

8:29

He was a very

8:31

well-respected scientist. He was also, unfortunately,

8:33

kind of a racist. And he

8:35

was a little anti-Semitic, although he

8:38

later renounced the anti-Semitism. He did

8:40

not renounce the racism. Not

8:43

the greatest guy. After he

8:45

established himself as a respected

8:47

scientist, he then felt free

8:49

to become the founder of

8:51

a belief system and a

8:53

practice called anthroposophy. And also

8:56

the Waldorf method of education,

8:58

if anybody is familiar with

9:00

Waldorf schools, it's a spiritual

9:03

humanist movement. And the aim

9:05

is to

9:07

engage in

9:09

spiritual discovery through

9:11

the senses. Steiner

9:14

said that he was a clairvoyant.

9:16

He dabbled in the occult. He

9:19

was very interested in marrying the occult

9:21

with science. And there

9:23

were lots of unsupported ideas. There

9:26

was a lot of exploring

9:28

science through the spiritual world,

9:31

pseudoscience, idealism. It was

9:33

definitely a criticized school of

9:35

thought. He believed that

9:37

Western civilization was going to

9:40

bring destruction to itself and

9:42

to the earth if

9:44

it did not somehow incorporate

9:46

the spiritual world into the

9:49

physical world. How you do

9:51

that? Well, he had some methods.

9:54

This was all going on in the early 1900s.

9:57

So Steiner was alive at the end of

9:59

the... 1800s and the beginning of

10:02

the 1900s. This is prime time

10:04

for the Industrial Revolution. At this

10:06

point in time, we'll go back

10:08

to agriculture. You had synthetically produced

10:11

fertilizers and pesticides. The farmers started

10:13

to notice declines in the health

10:15

and fertility of the soil, of

10:17

the animals, of the plants, of

10:20

the people, and the farmers actually

10:22

went to Steiner and said, look,

10:24

in your idea about connecting spirituality

10:26

to the physical world, could you

10:29

look into agriculture and see how

10:31

that all ties in. So in June

10:33

1924, Steiner held an agriculture

10:38

course with the farmers

10:40

and cobirates, which is a small village.

10:42

It was then Germany and now it's

10:44

Poland. This is my family's probably from

10:46

there. We're part of that little area

10:48

right there. So

10:50

eight lectures, five discussions

10:53

in the book Agriculture lays

10:55

out the concept of, you

10:58

guessed it, biodynamics. It

11:01

is a holistic approach to agriculture. So

11:03

a quote that I found, Demeter

11:06

Vintner's, so Demeter is

11:08

the certification body, Demeter

11:10

Vintner's do not produce

11:12

wine, they accompany it.

11:15

It is looked on as a shepherding

11:17

process and what Steiner said is

11:20

that the farm is a single

11:22

self-sustaining organism. So if we're talking

11:24

about vineyards, we're talking about grapes

11:27

and the soil and the vineyards

11:29

and all of the buildings

11:31

and everything that's there, it's

11:33

all self-sustaining. The idea

11:35

is to encourage the vines, to guide

11:37

the vines, and then you're going to

11:39

try to protect the soil so the

11:42

layer of humus, which is the nutrient-rich

11:44

soil, is going to keep the

11:47

land healthy and in order to

11:49

do that you need biodiversity. This

11:52

is one of the very important things

11:54

because if the ecosystem is going to

11:56

survive, you've got to have lots of

11:59

plants. and insects to

12:01

pollinate, you need the full ecosystem.

12:03

You need livestock, it has to

12:05

be a closed loop. You're using

12:07

all the inputs from the farm

12:10

to get the output. Natural inputs

12:12

for soil treatment, that means manure

12:14

and things like that, and for

12:17

fertilization, you're gonna keep the soil

12:19

alive. Now, that sounds great. It's

12:21

totally spot on and it makes

12:23

sense. Then there's what I like

12:26

to call the kooky part. So

12:28

the kooky part is that Steiner

12:30

then said, of course, because he

12:33

was an occultist, that there were

12:35

cosmic and earthly influences, and

12:37

this was a rhythmic process

12:40

that was, and I'm quoting

12:42

it, astrologically informed. You

12:44

have the lunar calendar, and the

12:47

lunar calendar is going to determine

12:50

root days, which is when you're going

12:52

to till the soil or do what

12:54

you need to do with the soil.

12:56

Leaf days where you'll prune and pick.

12:59

Flower days where you might plant

13:01

and definitely harvest. And fruit days

13:03

where germination will take

13:05

place harvesting again. And then

13:08

also in the winery, pressing,

13:10

racking, filtering, bottling. Also

13:13

opening the wine and drinking

13:15

the wine because they believe

13:17

that the wine is more

13:19

aromatic on both flower and

13:21

fruit days. This is all

13:24

very defined. When to plant, when

13:26

to prune, when to apply preparations,

13:28

when to harvest, as well as

13:31

the winemaking stages. They

13:33

claim that it's based on ancient

13:35

practices because the lunar calendar

13:37

has been observed for a long time.

13:39

For instance, what they might say is

13:41

the waxing moon as the moon goes

13:43

to fullness is going to

13:45

pull up plant sap. And that

13:47

is the reason why the grapes

13:50

are going to be more flavorful during

13:52

that waxing moon. And when the moon

13:54

is waning, the sap is going to

13:56

go down and the grapes will be

13:58

less flavorful. So not a good. day

14:00

to pick. Homeopathic preparations

14:02

are used by biodynamic

14:04

farmers on the soil.

14:06

Compost, grape for soil,

14:08

plants, you're gonna help

14:10

build up that farm's immune

14:13

system as they call it. The

14:15

forces of the universe

14:17

are going to conspire for the farm.

14:19

This was all laid out in 1924

14:22

by Rudolf Steiner. Now

14:26

the following year Steiner died of cancer in

14:28

1925 but his idea was very powerful

14:32

and it spread among fruit

14:34

and vegetable farmers in Germany.

14:36

Unfortunately this was starting

14:39

to take hold but the momentum

14:41

died because the Nazis banned Steiner's

14:43

writings in 1930. What

14:46

is ironic about the wine

14:48

world taking in this

14:50

philosophy is that Steiner and

14:52

all of his followers were

14:55

tea toddlers. They felt

14:57

that alcohol muddied the mind and

14:59

that it would hinder spiritual development

15:02

so they did not drink and

15:04

it's funny that it's such an important

15:06

tenant now in wine because Steiner wouldn't

15:09

have had any of it. So let's

15:11

move past the World War Two era.

15:13

This is when they decided look

15:16

we are in big trouble. We've

15:18

got to get these crops moving

15:20

again. Chemical fertilizers, fungicides, pesticides, the

15:22

farmers really wanted to get

15:24

their crops going so they could

15:26

start making some money and recovering.

15:29

Problem is some of the

15:31

farmers noticed this was very harmful to the land

15:33

and they wanted to see if there was a

15:35

way to fix the land and oppose these practices.

15:38

But it really wasn't until the

15:41

1960s that we see the first

15:43

wave in Alsace in France take

15:45

over. So 1969 this

15:47

is when Eugène Mayer among the

15:50

first grape growers to take up

15:52

biodynamics in Alsace. The story goes

15:54

that he was exposed to a

15:56

chemical spray on his vineyard and

15:59

he He suffered paralysis of his

16:01

optic nerve and he had

16:04

a homeopathic doctor who said,

16:06

read up on biodynamics. So

16:08

Mayer and his wife immediately

16:10

began converting their vineyard. In

16:13

1980, it became the first vineyard

16:16

to be Demeter certified. This is

16:18

Domaine Eugène Mayer, followed very quickly

16:20

by Jean-Pierre Frick, Domaine Pierre Frick,

16:23

which was certified organic in 1981.

16:26

And then we see in the

16:28

Loire, Nicolas Jolie owns La

16:31

Coulee des Serins in Sauvignon, a

16:33

very famous vineyard. He experimented with

16:35

biodynamics in 1980 and has been

16:38

an enormous influencer in the Loire

16:40

Valley in biodynamics because he saw

16:42

that chemicals were killing the vineyard.

16:45

In 2001, Jolie founded the Renaissance

16:47

des Appellations, which is the return

16:49

to terroir. That's what that means.

16:52

It's a certification for biodynamic and

16:54

organic producers, obviously based in the

16:57

Loire Valley. I found a really

16:59

interesting quote from Sarah Wang of

17:01

Domaine Eugène in Vouvres, which is in

17:03

the Loire. And she said that after

17:05

the Second World War, there was a

17:07

harmony that was lost. Biodynamics

17:10

offered the possibility of

17:12

reconnecting with nature. For

17:15

us, the philosophy

17:17

is really about balance.

17:20

And Eugène converted in 1988. We

17:23

also said Germany, really adopting the

17:25

practice early on. And the

17:27

US, also in the 1970s, you had

17:29

two biodynamic consultants who spread

17:32

the philosophy, Alan Chadwick

17:34

and his student, Alan York. Chadwick

17:36

was actually, his mother was a

17:38

big fan of Rudolf Steiner. He

17:40

was originally from the UK, went

17:42

to San Francisco in 1967 and

17:44

set up a program around biodynamics.

17:49

Jonathan and Katrina Fry

17:51

of Fry Vineyards, F-R-E-Y

17:54

joined the program in

17:56

1976. founded

18:00

Frey Vineyards four years later, they decided that

18:02

it was going to be biodynamic. And today

18:04

they've grown a lot, only 10% is

18:08

Demeter certified, the rest is made with

18:10

organic fruit that they source for

18:12

their organic wines. After

18:15

them, you had Benziger in

18:17

Sonoma, you had Bonterra up

18:19

in Mendo, Cooper Mountain in

18:21

Willamette, Oregon, and many

18:23

others. So the US was pretty

18:25

early to this movement as well.

18:27

We talk about certifications, there's really

18:30

one main certification, and that is

18:32

the Demeter Certification. Named

18:34

after the goddess of the harvest

18:36

and agricultural plenty, this was founded

18:38

in 1928. It

18:40

is the world's oldest sustainable

18:43

agriculture organization. Demeter is

18:46

an international certification.

18:48

It actually includes other agricultural products

18:51

beyond wine. It has

18:53

a bunch of certifications, biodynamic.

18:55

They actually do certify for

18:57

organic and fair trade and

18:59

sustainable, but they are most

19:01

known for the certification for biodynamics. And

19:03

the criteria are that you must use

19:05

the preparations, that you must have the

19:08

system be holistic. There's a lot of

19:10

check marks here, we're not going to

19:12

go into all of the criteria, but

19:14

you must follow the principles of biodynamic.

19:16

And everybody talks about the cow horn, you

19:18

probably heard me talk about it on the

19:20

show before. You can put manure

19:23

in a cow horn, and this is going to

19:25

make a preparation that

19:27

then you will spray on

19:29

the vines to help protect

19:31

them. And there's some

19:33

principles behind it, basically it's a

19:36

perfect amount of fertilizer. Doesn't have

19:38

to be, I think Jason Haas in last week's show

19:40

talks about how it doesn't have to be a cow

19:42

horn, it doesn't have to be a cow horn. I

19:44

mean in real life if we were really practical, but

19:46

that is part of biodynamics and

19:49

part of this philosophy. Regardless

19:51

of what you think about Rudolf

19:53

Steinert, he was one of the

19:55

first public figures to warn that

19:58

the use of chemical fertilizers. We're

20:00

gonna be a problem for the land

20:02

for plants for animal house and that

20:05

it was gonna be bad for food.

20:07

He was very very present in this.

20:10

Out of the biodynamic movement

20:12

came the organic movement. Another

20:14

reaction to conventional farming. Organic

20:16

is weird because it's different

20:19

in different countries, but it

20:21

was spawned from biodynamic thinking.

20:23

This is traditional farming, how

20:25

farming was always done. Until

20:27

the industrial revolution. It had

20:29

to be rediscovered in the

20:31

Nineteen twenties by the initiatives

20:33

as a Grown and As

20:35

and Doctors who were noticing

20:38

human health failing and farmers

20:40

and consumers. Who didn't like the

20:42

taste of the food after hit

20:44

been sprayed a chemical, pesticides, organic

20:46

abandons the whole. Lunar Calendar.

20:49

It abandons all the spiritual connection.

20:51

It abandons a lot of the

20:53

more for lack of a better

20:55

word. Woo woo stuff. Organic.

20:58

Specifications are based off

21:00

of agriculture that does

21:03

not use chemical or

21:06

synthetic pesticides. Now the

21:08

specifications for organic. Were.

21:11

Established in the Nineteen Seventy,

21:13

so Nineteen Seventy Two and

21:15

Europe you have some professional

21:17

unions that are already looking

21:19

into this. The Fn A

21:21

Be This is the National

21:24

Federation of Organic Agriculture with

21:26

created at the end of

21:28

the Nineteen seventies and G

21:30

R A Be grab his

21:32

Organic Agriculture Research group similar

21:34

training in European governments through

21:36

the European Commission started to

21:39

look at agriculture and putting.

21:41

A decree together. So in

21:43

July Nineteen Eighty, They started

21:45

this in March. Nineteen Eighty

21:47

One, We see a little

21:49

bit more formalization. By Nineteen

21:51

Eighty Five, there was an

21:53

official term. Organic.

21:55

Agriculture in the you at that time

21:58

was the easy, but the. the

22:00

national government could start to

22:03

authorize it based on a set

22:05

of criteria and By

22:07

1991 the European regulations

22:09

started to come pretty fast and furious

22:12

they expanded laws from a set of

22:14

French legislative texts because France was at

22:16

the forefront of this and They

22:19

started to apply it to plant production organic

22:22

products now are

22:25

certified in a European

22:27

Union country by a Designated

22:29

authority or a certifying

22:32

body under that authority often

22:34

it is Echocert which I will

22:37

talk about in a second. It is

22:39

a long an Onerous

22:41

process to become organic you might think

22:43

okay. Well if you're already farming organic,

22:45

why not become organic? You have to

22:47

have a plan you have

22:49

to have a timeline for certification

22:51

You gotta have cash because it

22:54

costs money and everything has to

22:56

be addressed killing

22:58

grazing if you have animals harvesting transporting

23:01

the wine Approved substances for growing

23:04

you have to have extensive record-keeping

23:06

systems how you keep your vineyards

23:08

away from prohibited Substances is a

23:10

big one because if your neighbor

23:12

is not organic You

23:14

can't really be organic if

23:16

you're very close then there's

23:19

implementation. You're gonna implement this You're

23:21

gonna get a review by the certifying

23:23

agent They're gonna make sure everything meets

23:25

the criteria and then you are inspected

23:27

the agents are gonna look at the

23:29

field and the soil and pest management

23:31

and water management and the

23:33

winery standards in any additives and they've Got

23:35

to report if there's any risk of contamination

23:38

From prohibited materials like I said if your

23:40

neighbor is not organic that's gonna be pretty

23:43

hard for you to become certified Then

23:45

you got to get certified and that

23:47

update is a little different for everybody But

23:49

normally it is every year every couple of

23:51

years And if you go

23:53

to Europe you will see and actually even

23:56

in the US you will see an echo

23:58

cert seal There's certification age They

24:00

operate in 130 countries since the 1990s. They

24:05

are going to audit organic agricultural

24:07

practices to make sure that you

24:09

deserve that label. They

24:11

have an environmental charter, so ECHO

24:14

CERT is really one of the most

24:16

respected, and you make sure, especially the

24:18

European producers, mention that ECHO CERT has

24:20

certified them. A

24:24

keystid at the beginning, I'm going to tell

24:26

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episodes of the podcast. On

26:00

half is the phone up with those Newcastle

26:02

fans an old people that pump of classes.

26:05

Lot. Of off at the heart. Attack

26:10

about we're organic vineyards are

26:12

and why and concentrating a

26:14

lot on the Us and

26:16

especially on your up. Here.

26:19

Are ten countries. That.

26:21

Account for ninety one percent

26:23

of the world total of

26:25

organic farming. That ten that

26:28

are important. Three or

26:30

in Europe and they make up

26:32

an enormous percentage. Is

26:35

twenty seven percent of all

26:37

the organic vineyards said is

26:39

twenty five. Percent mostly in Provence

26:42

in the language as a little

26:44

bit important, Italy Twenty four percent.

26:46

We are already a bad seventy

26:48

five percent of fifteen percent of

26:50

all the train vineyards mainly in

26:52

Sicily path Guinea and Puja are

26:55

organic. Over seventy five percent of

26:57

the world's certified organic vineyard surface

26:59

area is in Spain, France, or

27:01

Italy. That is the lion's. Share

27:03

with some of the. Other European

27:05

countries: Germany at two percent, Austria,

27:08

one percent, Greece at one percent

27:10

altogether. Europe next up, eighty four

27:12

percent of all organic vineyards. That

27:14

is why we're going to concentrate

27:16

a lot on Europe. Three non

27:18

European countries also have a decent

27:20

about the Us has four percent,

27:22

but that's production of wine great

27:24

cable grades and raisins, Turkey at

27:26

three percent they're mostly table grapes

27:28

and reasons, and China at three.

27:31

Percent. Why his?

27:33

There's so much organic that

27:35

a closer in the you

27:37

because it is the second

27:39

pillar of the common agricultural

27:41

policy. this is a hugely

27:43

important documents. The camp is

27:45

incredibly important for the Edu.

27:48

It has contributed to the

27:50

expansion of Europe's organic surface

27:52

areas, and the Cap is

27:54

followed by every member state

27:56

very closely because they get

27:58

access to read. Eddie

28:01

Vedder. National development money

28:04

for if. You include organic.

28:06

send your plan. Chances are you're gonna

28:08

get a lotta help and that is

28:10

while the you is so far ahead

28:13

for the Edu has some definitions of

28:15

are gonna have a done. It was

28:17

owned and ninety ninety one. First mean

28:20

regulation was twenty twelve. There was an

28:22

update again and twenty eighteen if. There

28:24

is a producer that you hear on

28:27

this so are you meet and they

28:29

call organic By know that means organic.

28:31

Okay so it bio in France means

28:34

organic. Organic. Line according

28:36

to the you is wine

28:39

which takes the I'm Them

28:41

and the protection of the

28:43

climate, bio diversity, animal welfare,

28:46

and consumer health into consideration.

28:48

most synthetic chemicals, most genetically

28:50

modified organisms are not allowed

28:53

and you can only use

28:55

certified organic products in the

28:57

cellar also. so it is

29:00

not just in the farm

29:02

but also the seller in

29:04

Europe. Organic products are subject

29:07

to European regulations that are applied

29:09

universally the all member states and

29:11

certain products. The national governments also

29:14

had the stricter specifications in some

29:16

cases, But Organic Nine First, the

29:19

be made with both organically grown

29:21

colds and of organic yeast. At

29:23

least ninety five percent of that

29:26

one's ingredients have to be organically

29:28

produced to be organic either prohibit

29:30

lots of stuff, but some examples

29:33

are like you can't use sorbet.

29:35

Acid to reassert a failure was

29:37

the level of sulfites. Inorganic wine

29:39

has to be lower than conventional

29:42

wine. This kind of depends on

29:44

residual sugar content. It's a little

29:46

squishy. Why summer they can have

29:48

a higher self. I content ten

29:50

reds and the you commission has

29:52

really restricted recently. Copper to fight.

29:55

Know do this is the Bordeaux

29:57

Spray Study February twenty nineteen because

29:59

they realize that it can pose

30:01

a danger to the land, to

30:03

small animals, to groundwater, the soil,

30:05

to earthworms. The vineyard workers and

30:08

so Copper with had been a

30:10

real tenet of organic that a

30:12

cultured. The one thing that could

30:14

still be there are pesticides and

30:16

herbicides is now being severely restricted

30:18

and people are getting pretty angry

30:21

about this. But it's probably a

30:23

good idea because Copper sulfate is

30:25

not. Are you for the land

30:27

is you get through everything. I

30:29

just. Said the wine Can say

30:31

that it is organic or bio

30:33

on the label and it can

30:36

have. You'll see this on the

30:38

back of European ones the Euro

30:40

Leaf logo. so it's a little

30:42

lease on a green. The Sticker:

30:44

It has a code number of

30:46

the certifying body, the French Agriculture

30:48

Biologic. The A label is their

30:51

own standards. That's the French Organic

30:53

Agriculture Label created in Nineteen Eighty

30:55

Five. You will still see the

30:57

leave but it will say a

30:59

be again. Made from organically grown

31:01

grapes. Organic. Must the must as

31:04

the juice to the grapes that hasn't been

31:06

fermented into one that has to all the

31:08

organic and then you can call it agriculture.

31:11

Biologic. The French a Be

31:13

label said that is Europe

31:15

organic? That a culture In

31:17

Australia only point six percent

31:19

of the country's vineyard area

31:21

is certified organic. In order

31:23

to be organic, the entire

31:26

wine making process from planting

31:28

the vines, the bottlings has

31:30

to be certified. Certification takes

31:32

years. It's a lot of

31:34

effort. There's generally audits, Know.

31:37

Chemical fertilizers, pesticides,

31:39

fungicides, herbicides, Lots. Of

31:41

focus on increasing the health of

31:43

soils. Reintroducing organic matter the

31:46

the soil organic wind. Under

31:48

Australian law, little different from

31:50

Europe. they can have preservatives.

31:52

But. the amount is limited to half of

31:55

what is available to producers of conventional one

31:57

so it just has to be half the

31:59

amount The barrier to organic

32:01

in Australia is

32:03

that the government of Australia

32:06

has done heavy promotion of

32:08

sustainable viticulture. So

32:10

that's restricted the development of organic

32:12

viticulture. And actually from 2014 to

32:14

2019, organic viticulture has declined 18%

32:16

per year on average because people

32:25

are choosing to do sustainability and they

32:27

are not as interested in organics. And

32:29

not a great sign for Australian organics.

32:32

New Zealand, same deal really.

32:34

A little more organic vineyards are going to cover

32:36

4.3% of the total vineyard area. But

32:41

98% of New Zealand's vineyards are

32:43

certified sustainable wine growing, which is

32:45

a national initiative that began in

32:47

1995. This is

32:49

for sustainable viticulture. Organic

32:53

regulations, organic service areas really

32:55

haven't caught on because people are

32:57

happy with sustainable wine growing and

32:59

it's supported by the government. In

33:02

the US, oh my gosh,

33:04

organic is a pain.

33:06

So the national organic program

33:09

is a standalone certification program

33:11

that the USDA, the US

33:13

Department of Agriculture, set up.

33:15

It was started in 2002

33:18

and it was to regulate

33:20

organic production plus processing

33:23

and marketing of organic

33:25

products. After you

33:27

finish with the USDA, you have

33:29

to meet the requirements of the

33:31

alcohol, tobacco, tax and trade bureau

33:34

and they have their own requirements,

33:36

especially for sulfites. The USDA

33:38

requires the growing of the

33:40

grapes and their conversion to

33:43

wine to be certified organic.

33:45

So in the vineyard, this is standard,

33:47

no synthetic fertilizers. Any

33:49

agricultural inputs such as yeast

33:52

also have to be certified

33:54

organic. All the ingredients have

33:56

to be certified except there

33:58

is this. thing called the national list

34:00

of allowed and prohibited substances, which they

34:02

just called the national list. And you

34:04

can put some stuff in there, but

34:06

it can't exceed 5% of the total

34:09

product except salt and water. So

34:11

you can put some additives in

34:13

organic wine just as an FYI.

34:15

However, one thing you can't do

34:17

is add sulfites. This has

34:20

been an uphill battle for organic wine

34:23

in the US. Sulfites are naturally

34:25

occurring as a result of fermentation,

34:27

but they also help keep wine

34:30

shelf stable. And as long as

34:32

you don't use it in big

34:34

amounts, it's really perfectly fine. That

34:36

prohibition of sulfites, not even a

34:38

reduction, but a prohibition, has made

34:40

certified organic very difficult for people.

34:42

And as a result of that,

34:44

we see fluctuations and vineyards move

34:46

in and out of the organic

34:48

system. They look at it more

34:50

as, okay, this year we can

34:52

do it next year, we can't.

34:54

That's kind of problematic. Now

34:56

there's another certification that you can get

34:59

from the USDA in the US made

35:01

with organic grapes. If you

35:03

see that the wine is

35:05

labeled as such because it

35:08

is made with organic grapes, 100%

35:11

of the grapes have to

35:13

be certified organic. But

35:16

yeast and other stuff are

35:19

not required to be organic, but

35:21

they have to be produced without

35:23

GMO, no genetic engineering. The ingredients

35:26

have to be specifically allowed on

35:28

that national list. Sulfites

35:30

can be added, but only up

35:32

to 100 parts per million,

35:34

which is really standard for most organic

35:37

wines, no matter where you are. You

35:39

do not get to use the organic

35:41

USDA logo if you have a wine

35:43

made from organic grapes. Big

35:45

barrier to becoming organic, I'm

35:48

not really sure what the rationale

35:50

there was, but that prohibition

35:52

of sulfites makes it really difficult

35:54

for people in the US to

35:56

get organic certification and also for

35:59

European wines. to be certified organic

36:01

in the US is basically impossible

36:03

because there are limitations on their

36:05

wines are much looser, frankly. I

36:07

think the question I do wanna

36:09

answer is, is organic wine better?

36:12

Is it like, does it taste better?

36:14

Is it superior? Here's what

36:16

I'll say. We are mainly talking

36:18

about a farming system. And so

36:20

yes, without those chemical

36:23

inputs and without all

36:25

of the extra agricultural

36:27

ingredients, it's gonna be better for

36:29

the planet. But there is

36:31

zero guarantee that organic wine

36:33

is great wine. All

36:35

of that is dependent on the terroir,

36:38

on the vintage, on the winemaker, and

36:41

choices that are made in the vineyards. Organic's

36:43

gonna help keep the soil healthy and viable.

36:45

It's gonna give you a head start. Does

36:48

it mean that the wine is better? No,

36:51

it does not. And there's plenty

36:53

of examples to prove that. So

36:55

we tackled the two big guys.

36:57

I do wanna talk about regenerative,

36:59

which again, Jason Haas talked about.

37:01

It's relatively new, but it

37:04

is probably the future of where we're going.

37:07

What regenerative says is

37:09

that soil and environment

37:11

and the cultural elements

37:13

around the farm have

37:15

to be improved by

37:17

farming the land responsibly.

37:19

Organic and biodynamic wine

37:22

growing are the first step to

37:24

this, to regenerative agriculture. And you

37:26

do have to be certified organic

37:29

to then get into the regenerative

37:31

agricultural certification program. The idea here

37:34

is carbon sequestration.

37:36

What the hell is

37:38

that? The goal of

37:41

regenerative agriculture is to

37:43

restore soil health and

37:45

to get more organic matter

37:48

in that humus over time.

37:51

And while that's happening, they

37:53

have found that you can grab

37:55

some carbon both below

37:57

the ground and above the ground.

38:00

and they're calling this carbon farming,

38:02

soil is one of the

38:04

Earth's best carbon storehouses. If

38:07

we are able to harness

38:09

this, you can mitigate climate

38:11

change. So this is a

38:13

hugely important initiative if it

38:16

can work. There's a

38:18

quote from one of the scientists

38:20

who has really forged regenerative agriculture

38:22

saying, even at low-end

38:24

estimates, there's substantial potential for

38:26

soil building practices to sequester

38:28

enough carbon to make a

38:30

real difference if we can

38:32

act over large areas. That

38:34

means wine growers can make

38:36

a huge difference. According to

38:38

the International Organization of Vine and

38:41

Wine, the OIV, there's about 18.2

38:43

million acres of

38:46

vineyards on Earth. If we could do

38:49

all of this stuff regeneratively and

38:51

do that carbon sequestration, we're going

38:53

to improve the soil, the

38:56

vines, the wine, and the air quality,

38:58

and we're going to take down the

39:00

temperature with this carbon capture. I

39:03

think this is where we're

39:05

all moving. This could be

39:07

very interesting. There is a

39:09

certification, it's the Regenerative Organic

39:12

Certification by the Regenerative Organic

39:14

Alliance. And what they say is

39:16

with the USDA Organic Certification

39:18

as a baseline, the

39:21

ROC recognizes the strong work already

39:23

conducted by existing animal welfare and

39:25

social fairness standard bodies, and therefore

39:28

leverages this work as part of

39:30

the journey to regenerative

39:33

organic certification beyond

39:35

increasing organic matter in the soil,

39:38

being kind to the animals, improving

39:40

animal welfare. It also has an

39:42

element which we will see in

39:44

sustainability, providing economic stability and fairness

39:46

for the workers. A bit of

39:48

the closed system, but it's not

39:51

based exactly on biodynamics. Let's

39:53

get to sustainable farming.

39:57

Again, the biggest initiative, we just heard that...

40:00

Sustainable farming has

40:02

really taken over in Australia and

40:04

New Zealand, making it almost possible

40:06

for organics to really gain a

40:09

toehold here. Sustainable wine growing is

40:11

incredibly rational and it is helpful.

40:13

The catch-all term has different meaning

40:15

for different people. It

40:17

generally includes some elements of

40:20

environment, social conscience, and economics.

40:22

Economic viability is actually always

40:25

addressed by sustainability, which is

40:27

why it is a really

40:30

good philosophy to follow. So it

40:32

could be about conserving water and

40:34

energy. It could be about protecting

40:37

air quality or water quality. It

40:39

could be about having better relationships

40:41

with your employees or the outside

40:43

community. And of course,

40:45

it's about the economic viability of

40:48

your vineyards. All of those things

40:50

together are going to make sustainable

40:52

wine growing popular. There are a

40:55

lot of certifications and Europe has

40:57

a ton of them. France especially

40:59

leads in terms of sustainable

41:01

wine growing. The most popular and

41:04

common one in France is HVE,

41:07

Haute Valure,

41:10

Environmental, or the High Value

41:12

Environmental Certification. This is really

41:15

an ecological transition at the

41:17

farm level. The French Ministry

41:19

of Agriculture developed this certification

41:22

in 2001. It's a three-tiered

41:25

system for improving

41:27

environmental practices. Every

41:30

five years, producers have to be

41:32

audited. HVE does

41:35

not consider the product.

41:38

These are the criteria,

41:40

protection of biodiversity, reduction

41:43

of chemical products, managing

41:45

fertilization and managing

41:48

water. The biggest group in

41:50

support of HVE is the Vigneron

41:52

and Dependant de France, the independent

41:54

wine growers of France. You see

41:56

the little label that calls out

41:58

the independent Vigneron. This is

42:00

a group of small scale

42:03

producers, about a quarter of

42:05

them are organic. They are

42:07

very, very supportive of the

42:09

HV certification. It's less strict

42:11

than organic. You can still use

42:13

chemical inputs in the vineyard if you have to, but

42:16

it promotes biodiversity. It's

42:18

much more aligned with sustainable agricultural

42:21

systems. Three levels for the HV

42:23

certification, you have level one, which

42:25

is the assessment. Level two, which

42:27

is including those four pillars

42:29

of biodiversity, getting rid of chemical products

42:31

and bad fertilization products and water resources.

42:34

So you have to consider all of

42:36

those. And then you have to be

42:38

at level two for four years before

42:40

you get to level three. Level three

42:42

certifications are allowed to

42:44

put the HV label on their wines. They

42:47

can use the logo. At least 95% of

42:50

the raw materials has to be HV. That's

42:53

a really important one to know

42:55

because a lot of small producers

42:57

talk about being HV certified. Couple

43:00

other ones you have Vinyaran Engage,

43:02

which was implemented in 2010. Eight

43:06

different wine regions, about 31,800 hectares or 78,580 acres

43:08

of vines are

43:12

covered by this environmental, social

43:15

responsibility, economic viability. The difference

43:17

in the Vinyaran Engage is

43:19

that you have to have

43:21

traceability from vine to

43:24

glass. So you have to be able

43:26

to account for all of your inputs.

43:28

And they all have to be following

43:30

the environmental, social and economic model against

43:33

sustainability. You also have to invest in

43:35

plants and develop local resources

43:37

and how to help create jobs,

43:39

have a fair price for the

43:41

consumer, very focused on the idea

43:43

of sustainability. There's also

43:45

a separate certification by

43:47

the Champaign bureau, gaze

43:50

culture drablay in Champaign.

43:53

The certification is the first French wine

43:55

region to do their own. It requires

43:57

compliance on 60 standards.

44:01

31 major standards, 34 minor standards,

44:03

takes three years. Champagne houses are

44:06

subject to audits every 18 months.

44:09

There's terra vidis, which was created

44:11

in Beaujolais, and includes about

44:13

seven associations from different regions, very much

44:16

about sustainability. If we move to California

44:18

in 2010, we

44:20

see the certified California Sustainable

44:22

Wine Growing, which is a

44:24

third-party certification that a winery

44:28

or vineyard is sustainable.

44:30

They have 200 best practices. You

44:35

have to commit to continuous improvement.

44:37

There are 60 vineyard

44:39

and 41 winery criteria.

44:42

A lot is based

44:44

on self-assessment. What areas

44:46

need to be improved? How are you going

44:48

to do it? You have to get certified

44:51

by a third party, which

44:53

happens annually to maintain the

44:55

certification status. This

44:57

certification has been criticized because

45:00

they allow a lot in those

45:02

41 winery criteria, like

45:05

flushing the toilets or not flushing the

45:07

toilets or turning off the lights or

45:09

not using the copier or whatever. There's

45:11

a lot of squish here, and

45:14

California has a number of sustainability

45:16

programs, but this is just one

45:18

of them. That is sustainable. We've

45:21

been through biodynamic, organic,

45:23

regenerative, and now sustainable.

45:26

Now we'll just roll up here with

45:28

just two others that people kind of

45:31

say in the clean box with all

45:33

these. One is pretty well-defined, vegan wine.

45:36

Not all wines are vegan. I've

45:38

talked about this before on the

45:40

show. People use egg whites as

45:42

fining methods to get out the

45:44

gross particles that are suspended in wine. The

45:46

egg whites will bond to them. It will

45:48

pull them out, and then the wine will

45:50

be clear. They used to use

45:53

blood for that, so we've certainly come a

45:55

long way. Now we use egg whites, but

45:57

you might also use fish bladders.

46:00

that could be a problem as well. Those

46:02

practices used by the winemakers,

46:04

if that bothers you, if you don't want to have

46:06

egg whites used for fining, it

46:09

is not in the wine, it is used

46:11

to clean out the wine and then it

46:13

is taken out. If that's a problem for

46:15

you, you should be looking for the vegan

46:18

wine label. They also have for vegan

46:20

wine, an animal requirement. So

46:23

horses and oxen can't pull

46:25

any agricultural equipment. It's

46:28

considered animal abuse. So that's vegan

46:30

wine. I've read that, I'm not 100% sure if

46:32

that's true, but I did read that somewhere. And

46:34

then we have my favorite

46:36

topic, natural wine. There is no

46:38

legal definition of natural wine. We

46:41

don't know what it is. It's different things

46:43

to different people. They are

46:46

supposed to use not so

46:48

many chemicals and technology during

46:51

wine production. It can

46:53

include organic and biodynamic, but it

46:55

doesn't have to. So you might

46:58

buy grapes or grow grapes made

47:01

in a conventional farm and

47:03

then not use any intervention

47:05

or minimal chemical intervention. And

47:07

you can call yourself a

47:09

natural wine producer, especially if

47:11

the wine is funky and

47:13

has some quality that maybe

47:15

you would not find in

47:17

a regular wine. Additives,

47:20

removal of anything from the wine is

47:22

not okay. So they're

47:25

just gonna leave it all

47:27

in. The closest we have

47:29

to a certification body is

47:31

in France. The Vant-Methode-Natur is

47:33

the closest certification, but

47:36

basically natural wines has no impulse.

47:39

And if they care about the vineyard,

47:41

no synthetic pesticides. But it's more about

47:43

the wine making, frankly. That's what most

47:45

of us in the wine industry are

47:48

saying, that it's kind of more about

47:50

the wine making side, although again, many

47:52

of them do use biodynamically, organically grown

47:54

grapes. Also, no sulfur,

47:56

low to no sulfur, because that

47:59

is considered. and input. All

48:01

right, so that is a wrap

48:03

on these wines that are meant

48:06

to be gentler on the environment,

48:08

that are meant to be putting

48:10

more good into the world, whether

48:12

it be in the communities, whether

48:14

it be supporting the economic viability

48:17

of the winery, while also doing better

48:19

things for the land. I

48:21

would say that although not all of

48:23

them are as strict as I would

48:25

like, anyone who is

48:27

engaged in these activities is

48:30

thinking about a better future for

48:33

their farm and for the land.

48:35

Do I hope that this is the

48:37

future? It is already

48:39

here, people are already doing this,

48:41

people understand that destroying the land

48:43

by using chemicals is not the

48:46

way to go and it will

48:48

not be sustainable in the future.

48:50

It is good that farmers have

48:52

recognized this. Are all of

48:54

these methods created equal? No,

48:57

but not everybody has the

48:59

money or the time to

49:01

be certified organic or biodynamic

49:03

or regenerative. It really takes

49:05

a lot of dedication, a lot of staff,

49:07

and a lot of money to be able

49:10

to do this. Some people can

49:12

do it, some people can't, but

49:14

I think anybody that is embarking on

49:16

any of these programs, with the

49:18

exception of natural wine to be quite

49:21

honest, but these methods that help the

49:23

farm are doing good work. So I

49:25

think we should applaud them all. Regardless

49:27

of whether you think biodynamics is kooky,

49:30

it definitely does improve the health of

49:32

the soil and we do know that

49:34

to be true. So that is all

49:36

I have, a big earful for you.

49:39

Hopefully you found it interesting, especially with

49:41

all the new developments and new certifications.

49:43

I think it's pretty fascinating how many

49:45

different certification bodies are, well I could

49:48

be skeptical and say, making money off

49:50

of this, or I could

49:52

say are providing valuable resources to

49:54

people. We will let you decide.

49:57

And with that, this has

49:59

been another... episode of Wine for Normal

50:01

People. Thank you so much for listening and

50:03

we will catch you next time.