0:00

Carson Leno

0:03

Fallon. Now it's

0:06

wine talks with Paul K.

0:11

Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are in studio today, about

0:14

to have a conversation way out in Harlem with Wanda man. Introductions in just a

0:18

moment. Wine talks, of course, available on iHeartRadio, Pandora, Spotify, wherever you

0:22

hang out for podcasting and have a listen to claude

0:25

Roquette. He has lived and worked on the greatest vineyards and

0:29

areas of wine in France, but landed in Napa Valley

0:33

working for the Smith Haute Lafitte Bordeaux house at a winery called

0:36

Cathiard. The wines are fabulous wines, and we talk about the

0:40

French coming to America and using the new world,

0:44

let's call it the new world, to make wine. You start to see a great

0:47

difference in not the quality, but the depth of the wines and the

0:50

complexity here about that as well. I just released an

0:54

episode with Frederick J. Ryan, the CEO of the Reagan

0:58

foundation, but more importantly, author of the book

1:01

White House a History, the preeminent

1:05

authority in America on what was poured when in the White House. And all

1:09

the history that goes with it is really quite interesting. Probably due

1:13

for a second episode just to catch up on all things at the White

1:16

House. But now, while we're here, we're here to talk about wine with Wanda

1:20

man. Wanda is the east coast editor of the famed trade

1:23

magazine Psalm Journal, as well as the tasting panel. Welcome to the

1:27

show. Thank you for the invitation, Paul. Happy to be here.

1:31

Well, I've been watching you online. I guess that's what we do these days, right?

1:35

Yeah, that's true all the way. We watch everyone

1:38

online. And you've been contributing to the wine space

1:42

for quite a long time. And you grew up in

1:46

New York? I'm a native New Yorker. I was born on this island

1:49

of Manhattan, so this is my hometown. Wow. There can't be that many of you

1:53

around. You know, people always say that. I guess

1:57

it doesn't seem that there are, but I'm like, you know, we have all these

2:00

hospitals and babies are being born in New York every day. But it is

2:03

you're more likely to encounter. I'm just thinking in terms of

2:07

the wine community in New York. There's a handful of us that I can think

2:10

of that were born in Manhattan. But, you know, New York is where people come

2:14

to make their dreams come true. Right? So

2:18

not everyone's born here, but, you know, we're here. We're here. No,

2:22

that is interesting. Part of New York is that it does have that sort of

2:25

moniker that whether you're coming from Europe or whether you're coming

2:28

from in America to land in New York to take your

2:32

shot because there's such a hotbed of not only food and

2:36

wine, but entertainment and all the rest of industry.

2:39

Anything you want to do, New York has it. You know, I'm not sure if

2:43

we're still the city that never sleeps. I think since lockdown, people have

2:47

gotten a little groggier. But definitely it is a place where

2:50

you can invent, reinvent, rejuvenate, you know, pursue

2:54

that dream, that passion. So it's nice to know that we still have that going

2:58

for us. Well, we miss it. Like I told you, my

3:01

daughter lived in Harlem as a boulanger

3:05

for a restaurant that earned a Michelin star. And now

3:08

she's in Potsdam. You ever heard of Potsdam,

3:12

Sarah? Where is that exactly? Well, it's not the edge of the world, but you

3:15

can see it from there. It's as far north in New York as you can

3:18

get. Okay. Okay. It's quite

3:22

a. Quite different than Manhattan, actually. I would think

3:26

so. But you ended up in college in

3:29

California. Actually, just down the road from where I'm at today. How did that

3:33

happen? Yes, I went to Pomona College. I'm a proud

3:36

sage hen. That's our odd little mascot. How did

3:40

that happen? Yes, I had no family in California. I'd

3:44

never even really been to California until I visited Pomona

3:48

the year that I was graduating from college, Pomona became a very

3:51

hot school. So I actually went to high school in Massachusetts.

3:55

I went to boarding school. And that year a lot of us applied to

3:58

Pomona. I think it really started moving up the rankings in that time.

4:02

And I flew out to visit in the

4:06

deep depth of winter in New England. And I went to

4:09

sunny Inland Empire and I said, oh,

4:13

it's a good school. That's a bonus. I really like this weather.

4:17

Yeah. I have to say, the sunshine

4:20

played a major decision. But I did like the fact that it was a small

4:24

school. There were no teaching assistants. So in

4:28

some ways, it didn't feel so different from Andover. It was just

4:32

much better weather there. Well, all five

4:35

of the schools in that group are highly acclaimed

4:39

educational institutions. So, I mean, you could have. You did very well for

4:43

doing that. Well, why didn't you stay in California? I

4:46

finally got home sick. I stayed a couple of years after graduation,

4:50

but I left home at 14 to go away boarding school. And then

4:53

I did a junior year in high school in Spain and a junior year in

4:57

college in Spain. So I'd always been kind of a bit of a nomad.

5:01

And I was ready to be back near, near my family, quite

5:05

honestly, and enjoy New York. I never really

5:09

had, you know, teenage experience in New York. I went away

5:12

to school at 14. I would come home for break, so I wanted to

5:16

experience my city as an adult. And good

5:20

decision. Yeah, it's been great. It's been great.

5:23

You know, it's interesting. New York used to be, when we were there, pre

5:27

COVID, man, there was a wine shop, like, on every corner. I mean,

5:31

it's one of those towns where wine is an important

5:35

part of the culture. Certainly the restaurant, food, the hospitality side

5:38

of New York is incredible. The hotbed of

5:42

restaurants and Michelin stars. But there always seems to be a wine

5:45

culture that just sort of runs itself. It just

5:49

kind of takes care of itself. It's got wine bars, it's got wine

5:53

shops. Did that, was that part of your, you know,

5:57

post college lifestyle?

6:00

To be honest, no, not really.

6:05

I wish I could say that it was. I got into wine and very

6:09

roundabout way. When I

6:13

graduated, I eventually ended up working as an events planner. So I

6:16

was working with nonprofits. I was producing red carpet galas. Took

6:20

a few detours, and I ended up becoming the events director at the

6:24

Princeton Club in midtown. And part of my responsibility was

6:28

putting on the wine and spirits tastings for the members, because those

6:31

were no brainers, they were profitable. My general

6:35

manager was happy and got members in the club. The events always

6:38

sold out. So I started meeting people in the industry, and at that

6:42

point, really, my wine knowledge was, it's white, or it's red, it still,

6:46

or it's sparkles. I really didn't know much. I was the person,

6:50

like, do we have the tasting mats? Do we have the decanters? Are they chilled

6:53

right? But through doing those events, I started meeting people in the

6:57

industry. And someone invited me to have lunch one day, said, oh, you were

7:01

so great to work with. Why don't you come one day to one of our

7:04

events that aren't at the Princeton Club so you can enjoy the tasting?

7:08

And that was really my first time sitting across from a winemaker that was

7:11

probably about 2010 or eleven, and I realized there

7:15

was this whole world I didn't know about. You know, he talked about these

7:19

grapes like they were children, you know, throwing around these terms,

7:23

malolactic fermentation, trellis systems. And I'm

7:26

nodding my head and thinking, boy, I have a lot to learn. And that was

7:30

really the catalyst. I started going to more tastings. I started buying

7:33

books. I was already writing at that point, I had a pretty

7:37

popular lifestyle blog and newsletter with. With

7:40

advertisers, and I covered fashion and food and arts and

7:44

culture, but I slowly started integrating wine content.

7:48

And then I think it was at a time where a lot of women my

7:51

age were at a point in our career where we wanted to know more about

7:54

wine. Your early thirties, you're making a little more money, you're going

7:58

to events, you're going to fancier restaurants. You want to be able

8:02

to say something other than white wine. So as I was

8:05

learning, I was sharing with other women especially, who wanted to know,

8:09

what is Chardonnay? What is suncer with what is

8:12

Vermentino? So it was just. It was kind of like the right

8:15

moment, the right time. So I always laugh when people say, oh, you're so new

8:19

to this. It's just when I started, there was no instagram. You

8:23

know, it was a blog. And I used to

8:26

do in person events for my readers. But,

8:30

yeah, I've been kicking around for about 15 plus years now

8:34

doing. Do you think that that is an academic

8:37

curiosity where you sat there, or was it

8:42

driven by your need to

8:46

understand wine specifically or food?

8:51

I always try to pin this down. What is this motivating factor

8:55

that piques our curiosity at some point and we just have to learn

8:59

more? I think it's a little bit of both. Being an

9:02

anthropology major, I think I'm just always naturally curious about

9:06

any type of culture that's different. So the

9:10

wine culture is certainly something that was new and exciting, a new way

9:13

of looking at the world. And it brought in all the issues that I was

9:17

interested in. Culture, language, science,

9:21

artistry, spirituality, it's all there in wine. And

9:24

my dad was a professional chef, so I always grew up with the love of

9:28

flavor. And so even though we spend a lot of time more

9:31

focused on food, my dad did buy me my first bottle of wine when I

9:35

was 16. So I think all of these things kind of combined. Like,

9:38

wow, this is something that, yeah, it tastes good. I'm getting a little

9:42

older, I'm appreciating more about it. But really,

9:46

for me, yes, the wine should taste good. That's

9:50

important. It being delicious is an important part of its appeal.

9:53

But I think the stories are really what attracted me, just

9:57

learning why people do this, why

10:01

people collect, why people change careers to become

10:04

winemakers, why people continue when they lose

10:08

everything in a fire. You know, just what is that drive? So I

10:12

think that's really what keeps me interested, are the stories. It's funny

10:16

you said collected. I am not a collector. We never even. My

10:20

business was about $15 to $20 wines after 35 years

10:23

of doing this. And I never collected it. Never even told. I thought,

10:27

you know, collecting wine for a financial gain was really not a good idea.

10:31

But now, because I sold the company and the buyer wanted

10:35

nothing to do with our seller, I've got like, I don't know,

10:38

3000 bottles almost of some pretty cool stuff. And

10:42

I. This mentality of collecting has settled in. I'm like, man, if I

10:46

drink that, I'm not going to have it anymore. And that's

10:49

like, I'm like, you shouldn't care,

10:53

just drink it because what are you doing anyway?

10:58

But you're an anthropology major. Yes. Well, look,

11:06

I had 30,000, 30,000 cases here almost at all

11:09

times. And so I really didn't need a seller and I really didn't need

11:12

any. But now I have to have one. But you know, anthropology major is

11:16

an interesting viewpoint for the wine business that, you

11:20

know, they found that winery in Armenia 6000 years old. They found the winemaker

11:24

shoes or maybe did they have cellar rats back then? Maybe that was

11:28

a cellar rat shoe, we don't know. But there is something very historical about wine as a beverage. Was it part of

11:35

the curriculum at all when you were in college? You know,

11:39

not at all. I mean, Pomona, like, you know, was not a

11:43

party school at all. I think the only wine I ever drank

11:47

during the Pomona years was a wine cooler and some

11:50

boone's farm. I was like, oh my goodness, all those years in the west coast, I never

11:58

visited Napa, Sonoma, Central coast.

12:02

It really was not a part of the experience. And then recently I met Chapney

12:06

Corson, also Pomona College

12:09

graduate. And what sparked her interest in wine was a

12:12

wine tasting class at Pomona. And I'm like, they didn't have that when I

12:16

was there. Well, that's so interesting. Wouldn't it be

12:20

anthropologic? Anthropologic? Anthropologic,

12:23

anthropological. I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't

12:27

wine be part of that curriculum? Because it goes so far

12:30

back. You know, I think you've given me a good

12:34

case to go to the school and say I'd like to be an adjunct in

12:37

the anthropology. I may have found

12:41

a new gig, but no, we talk about anthropology

12:44

covers linguistics, archaeology, culture.

12:48

And I'm sure we must have talked about wine at different points, but it was

12:52

never a focus. There were no wine classes at Pomona at

12:55

all, so. Well, I think this is what separates wine

12:59

from every other beverage is this historical viewpoint

13:03

and its cultural additive to, you know,

13:07

lifestyle. I mean, you know, they know, they know what vintages King Tut

13:10

liked. They have to tell you something, right? There's something

13:14

unique and ethereal about this glass, the wine. I just wrote an article that I'm

13:18

going to post today, a short article on the

13:21

contemporary issues with wine in the marketplace

13:25

and how I think history has its back because

13:29

it's not going to go away, of course. And if somebody wants to drink it

13:32

out of a can, let them drink out of a can. But that's eventually going

13:35

to be a non issue as well. But for you,

13:39

you sat at this table, you tasted this wine, you heard these stories, and

13:43

now you realize you'll never learn at all. Yeah.

13:47

And even now, I mean, I think even if you

13:51

talk to masters of wine and master psalms, I think that's the beauty of wine,

13:55

is that you will never know at all. So it keeps it exciting and it's

13:58

also very humbling. So that's why I'm always a little, I have a bit

14:02

of trepidation when someone says you're a wine expert. I'm like, I may know

14:06

slightly more than you just because I've immersed myself in it,

14:09

but to call myself an expert, I

14:13

don't feel that. I feel I'm someone who's learning. I'm passionate. I

14:17

like to share that information. It has certainly made topics that

14:21

I didn't have much interest in before more interesting to me.

14:24

So I think about geology at Pomona. Rocks for jocks, we

14:28

called it. I hated geology. Well, once you get into

14:32

wine, you become like a soil and rock nerd, right?

14:35

Like really riveting and exciting. Like, if

14:39

only they had taught this through the lens of wine, I would have found it

14:43

interesting, perhaps. So I, you know, I always regretted not going

14:46

on to grad school. I was admitted, and then my life took a

14:50

different direction and I decided not to go. But for me, wine has

14:54

kind of filled that void of ongoing education. You

14:57

know, they say that it has for me, for sure. I mean, my

15:01

mom, if she was alive, would have gone, you know, who is this kid

15:05

who understands, like, world geography? Like, I didn't care.

15:09

Exactly. But that's one of the subjects that your brain

15:12

wraps around when you start studying wine as well as, like you said, rocks and

15:15

things. And part of that says,

15:19

and maybe this is where this contemporary viewpoint of the wine

15:23

industry is. And I think, and we'll talk about that a second, why I think

15:26

it's going backwards a little bit. But is that the intimidating

15:29

factor for your friends, let's say, who consider you an expert when

15:33

you bring up sheast or chalk or,

15:37

you know, granite and tap roots and all those things that,

15:40

the buzzwords that we know but make everybody else's eyes

15:44

spin, is that the intimidating factor for all?

15:47

And we're going to talk about the cultural aspect of this, too. But is that

15:50

in general, the things that people go, oh, you know, I really, I just want

15:53

a glass of wine. I don't want to hear about it. Yeah, I think it

15:57

can be, but it doesn't have to be because I think, you

16:00

know, sometimes wine can feel like inside baseball, right?

16:04

Those of us in the industry, you know, we throw around our

16:08

vernacular and our way of speaking about wine because it's a language

16:12

that we know. And sometimes we forget when we're talking to consumers

16:15

and new drinkers that they're not familiar with those terms. So when you

16:19

say, oh, yeah, it went through Mallow, oh, yeah, this wine has

16:23

some va, and they're like, what are you talking about? Right.

16:27

So I think, you know, I've been doing a lot of events with consumers now

16:31

at festivals, at private clubs here in New York. And I

16:34

think at the beginning, you just want to talk in very simple terms. They

16:38

can understand. It shouldn't read, you know,

16:42

like a taste sound, like a tasting note or

16:45

a scientific description. I always tell people, I want you to leave with maybe

16:49

three things you didn't know before. So then when you go to that cocktail

16:53

party, for example, the number of people who don't is like,

16:57

oh, I don't think I like Sancerre, but I like Sauvignon blanc. Well, I've

17:01

got a surprise for you. Sancerre is Sauvignon Blanc. How about

17:04

that? Oh, I don't really like Chardonnay, but

17:08

Chablis is great. Well, you know what? That's really

17:11

funny. Or people who think we talk

17:15

about all these different flavors, and I've had someone genuinely ask,

17:18

so, like, do they add, like, when you say it tastes like

17:21

strawberry and hibiscus and tea leaves, do they

17:25

add that to the wine? No, they don't. But, you know, there's some

17:29

shared chemical compounds between those fruits and

17:32

wine. Now, you don't need to rattle off the name of all the compounds to

17:36

show off, you know? So I think sometimes we just need to be a

17:39

little more simple when we present it. And then for those people

17:43

who want to know more, they'll start geeking out like I did. They'll find information

17:47

on their own. They'll start going to more advanced tastings and

17:50

seeking out more, you know,

17:54

challenging experiences. But I think we do ourselves disservice when we

17:58

say, you can only talk about wine in this way.

18:02

I agree with that, and certainly unintentional because

18:06

I suppose in order to describe things or to talk about it, to understand, if

18:10

you really want to dig deeper, you're going to figure out that, yes, like, we'll

18:13

just say the other night I had a dinner with a french winemaker who came

18:16

to our home, young man, and no one else in the room would have

18:19

understood this. When I told him, I said, I've got a sparkling wine here, grown

18:22

in, you know, it was in sheath. And he goes, oh, absolutely.

18:26

And it's not champagne. It's not an expensive bottle, but it's really good because

18:30

he understands what that's supposed to be like, and certainly no one else in the

18:33

room was going to know that, right? So it's unintentional that

18:37

this vernacular occurs because you've got to study it.

18:41

How many people do you think when you have those events with the consumers

18:45

and you try to bring the language to a point where most

18:48

people can understand it? How many think come away percentage wise

18:52

with at least the idea, I'd like to take the next

18:56

step. I'm sure this is a guess, but because most people go, hey, I went

19:00

to this event. It's really cool. The guy was talking about this and that, and,

19:03

you know, I still like, you know, my, my apothec red. So

19:07

what do you think? There's a group?

19:11

I think so, because I think the fact that they even showed up for that

19:14

event shows that there's a virgin. Now, once in a while, you see someone whose

19:18

partner clearly dragged them to the tasting like, honey is date night and we're going

19:22

to a wine tasting. I had an

19:25

experience last year in Aspen. There was a couple

19:28

sitting front row center, and one of them

19:32

looked miserable for the first ten minutes, like, I don't want to be at this

19:36

event. She made me come to this tasting. So I kind

19:40

of kept looking over at him, and I said, I think he's

19:43

softening up a little. After two sips, we get to the

19:47

third wine, he's nodding, he's participating. After the

19:51

session ended, he's the first person I went to, and I said,

19:55

am I wrong? But I had a feeling in the beginning, you don't really want

19:58

to be here. She made you come, didn't she? He goes, yeah, but I got

20:02

to tell you, this was really fun. I learned a

20:05

lot. And he's like, I would do it again. Wow, that's great.

20:09

So I think that when you make it real, if you keep it down

20:13

to earth, that even those folks who think they're not

20:17

interested, and sometimes it's, like I said, sometimes they

20:20

didn't know if it's a science geek, they really cling to

20:24

the science. Like, oh, I didn't know that. Or someone who's really into,

20:28

who's environmentalist. And I hear about all of the sustainability

20:31

efforts and wine. Sometimes it's a social justice perspective

20:35

when they hear about whiny, sort of very involved in

20:38

important social justice issues, you know, gender diversity, racial

20:42

diversity, equity parity. So I think, you know,

20:46

you meet people where they are. So I would like

20:50

to think more than half the room will

20:54

continue to go to wine tastings, will go to wine shops and step

20:57

out of their comfort zone, because that's the main thing I tell people, we all

21:01

have our comfort wines just like we have comfort foods. But I challenge

21:05

you. When you go to your wine shop, don't always reach for that same bottle

21:08

that you always get. Have a conversation, develop a good

21:12

relationship with your wine cellar, and

21:16

expand a bit. And you don't have to like everything. And there's nothing wrong. I

21:19

don't care how many points it has. You're allowed not to like

21:22

it, but understand why you don't like it. Maybe

21:26

you like a more acidic wine. Maybe you like a less acidic wine. Maybe you

21:30

like more complexity. Maybe you, you know, you, you like

21:34

lots of tannin, grippy wines. Maybe you like a jammy

21:37

wine. There's nothing wrong, but understand what you. Do and don't like,

21:41

you know, that's a great thought. And I had a buyer here at one of

21:45

my wine shop was open. It was dore. He was one of the

21:49

best pallets buying pallets in Los Angeles, for sure

21:53

of my experience. But uncannily, he was able

21:57

to take somebody's record. Some walks into the shop

22:01

and says, I usually buy you this. And he'd say, well, I'm going to take

22:04

you over here to try something else. And that's a

22:07

talent for a wine shop owner or a wine club owner,

22:11

to be able to hear a particular style and

22:14

then take the next step, left or right,

22:18

north or south, as to what that person might like. And that's an important thing.

22:22

But you said something very important. This is the part we're going to peel back

22:24

now, and that is this experiential part of

22:28

wine. I think the industry has been plagued

22:32

by a couple of things, and one of them is the advent of the

22:35

Internet and the advent of

22:39

50 cent a liter wines coming from Europe being bottled with fancy labels

22:43

and being sold as something more than they are,

22:46

and the disillusion of the consumer.

22:50

Because the story can't be when you're sitting at dinner with your friends, hey, I

22:53

got this for $5 on the Internet.

22:57

There was a new club started during Christmas that I watched called Vino Cheapo, for

23:01

my God's sake. I mean, give me a break. So why would you, you know,

23:04

why would you do that at dinner? Hey, I got this. At Vino Cheapo, you

23:07

know? Yeah, maybe the wines are good. I don't. Well, that's a

23:11

different story. But the point being,

23:15

I think that wine actually is going back to, like, the seventies and

23:18

eighties, when my dad had his wine groups and the Les Amie Devant was around

23:23

in America. And you would go to the dinners and you would hear from the

23:26

winemakers, and that's where you start to understand

23:30

the differences and the history and the romanticism and why

23:33

a glass of wine is different than any other beverage. Are you seeing

23:37

more of that? You know, I've noticed, you know,

23:41

when I go out to eat, I'm really impressed. When I look around the

23:45

dining room and I see young people in their twenties and thirties

23:48

with really good battles on the table. I think we're

23:52

living in an age where the younger generation,

23:56

they really care about what they eat and drink, and a great deal

24:00

of their disposable income goes there. And I know we

24:03

talk about, you know, they're not drinking enough. And

24:07

part of that is, look, when you're young, you don't necessarily want to drink what

24:10

your parents are drinking, right? And we were all young once,

24:14

right? So it's a process. But I do notice, at least here in New York,

24:20

I feel hopeful because I see that they're not just saying, oh, give me the

24:23

cheapest or the second cheapest. I look, I'm like, oh, they spent more money on

24:27

wine than we did tonight, and they're enjoying

24:30

entertainment. So, yeah, I think

24:34

people want to be a part of the conversation, and I think social media

24:37

has fueled that. You know, when you see people, one of your friends

24:41

in college who suddenly is a social media influencer, talking about wine,

24:45

it's like, oh, I want to speak that language, too.

24:48

So I think social media has really helped to fuel that conversation. There are some

24:52

downsides to it as well. But I do think it has captivated

24:56

a larger audience in a way that wasn't possible with just

24:59

a print magazine. I think you're right. I think as

25:03

well, probably in the magazines that you contribute to,

25:08

a lot of articles are about the decline in sales

25:12

for the listener. We're not talking about like this 30% drop in sales. We're talking

25:15

a few percentage points. It's also coupled with the

25:19

overproduction of wine and everybody jumping in to see

25:23

if they can make a million dollars. And of course, we know how that works.

25:26

That will add it and the advent

25:29

of the supermarket formula wise. Now, this is an interesting problem

25:33

that we have, and I just realized the complexity of it as we're

25:37

talking. You walk into about Ralph's market, supermarket,

25:40

safeway, you know, Kroger's or any of the East

25:44

coast chains, and virtually the shelf is the same.

25:48

Right? It's a popular. Well, the beauty of New York City is you can't

25:52

buy wine in the supermarket. Well, that's true. That's true.

25:55

So for me, when I, it always throws me off when

25:59

I'm in another state and I'm like, oh, my goodness, they have

26:03

a whole aisle of wine. I'm like, how does anyone navigate this? There's

26:07

no one to help you. That's a really good point. I didn't

26:11

think about that. Maybe, and I'm sure it's not the intention of the bureaucrats of

26:14

New York, which was to actually create a system that forced

26:18

somebody into looking at wines other than what's at the supermarket. Because there is no

26:21

wine in the supermarket. Exactly. Even though, look, there is a lobby,

26:25

you know, that very much wants to be able to sell wine in a

26:29

supermarket. And of course, the wine shop and liquor store owners are

26:32

lobbying against it, of course. But I think the wine

26:36

shop does a much better job of creating a

26:39

wine culture than a supermarket, which feels much more

26:43

utilitarian. You go there for your necessities, you have your list,

26:47

you grab what, you know, the times I've been out of state and

26:51

I've walked through these large wine aisles, they lack

26:54

that energy that you get in a wine shop.

26:58

Well, there's no, there's no question. And that was a point I was going to

27:02

make. But since you live in New York, you don't get

27:06

to experience it like I do. But if you go to Vaughn's here at Ralph's,

27:09

it's the same shelf, you know, there's Cali red right in the middle.

27:13

There's menage a trois and floor stacks of Josh

27:16

and you don't get to make a decision. In fact, I posted a picture the

27:20

other day of the Ralph's market Cabernet

27:23

section. Every single wine had a shelf talker.

27:27

So it was either about the price or is about the points that got it.

27:31

And I posted. All I wrote was, how do you make a decision?

27:36

And it kind of goes back to what I'm talking about, which is we need

27:38

these wine shots. We need the department manager anyway at a large

27:42

supermarket, if they have one, to help us break out. But

27:46

then on the flip side of this, and you probably experienced it, we

27:50

need those wines for people that don't drink wine to come into the fray.

27:54

Grab a bottle of an interesting label and like, have you seen the freak

27:57

show label? They're like a carnival picture. Yes, yes. Right?

28:01

And they grab, they go, oh, this is interesting beverage. And then they move to

28:05

the next step. And it's sort of like you need that entry level

28:09

conversation before you can get to the stuff that we like to talk

28:12

about. Absolutely. I always say very few Americans

28:16

grow up, you know, drinking

28:20

Brunello, Bordeaux,

28:23

Burgundy. So you know that the palate, you know, there's a

28:26

gateway. You have your entry level wines to kind of sparked the

28:30

excitement. That's actually a really good point. I never drank

28:33

gin. My dad made me. I made a martini every night for him. Son, make

28:37

me a martini, but I never drank it. And then till I was an adult,

28:41

now I drink too much for it. So, yeah, I never understood why my dad

28:44

liked whiskey. I'm like, oh, smells like listerine. It's horrible. But

28:48

then once I got into wine, I started appreciating, you know, spirits

28:52

as well. Yeah, you got to start. You got to start. That's the key

28:56

thing. What are you hearing about non

28:59

alcoholic? And this goes back to my romantic view of wine

29:03

and the ethereal value of glass wine. But non alcoholic is hot.

29:07

It is not. Sure I get it. I'm trying to figure out low alcohol, which

29:11

I think is a better product, but

29:15

bag in the box, all this cans.

29:19

Had a conversation with the Cornell professor who's working

29:23

on a food grade lining to help canned wines go

29:27

longer. And I can only look

29:31

at that having watched my dad's wine shop and my wine shop and everything go

29:34

through its cycles as just blips in the consumption of

29:38

wine since we talked about this 6000 year old winery in

29:42

Armenia. These are just consumer

29:45

pieces that just kind of go up and down. And really,

29:50

I think the low alcohol, because there are definitely times that I

29:53

prefer lower alcohol wine right and again,

29:57

you know, being more conscious of what we're consuming.

30:01

And I think it also allows your friends and

30:05

colleagues who don't drink to at least still participate in the ritual with the no

30:09

alcohol. But as I said in an interview that I

30:12

did last year, personally, I like my wine with alcohol. To

30:16

me, that's what a wine is. I like the alcohol.

30:21

I don't think we should demonize it. I think there's a real movement

30:25

now that seems to be surging

30:30

moderation. Drink smartly, but enjoy. But I

30:33

think, just like we shouldn't overdo sugar,

30:37

we know that too much sugar can be bad for us. Yes, too much

30:40

alcohol is bad. But, yeah, the no

30:44

alcohol, I read recently, what's the chain

30:47

of Boisson? That a lot of their stores are closing.

30:51

They started in New York. I believe they have some on the west coast, and

30:55

their whole model was alcohol free beverages.

30:59

And so the cynical part of me is like, maybe people realize they were

31:03

spending $30 for a pretty bottle of iced tea or fruit juice.

31:07

Yeah, right. Maybe that's the problem. Well, it's

31:11

kind of interesting you just said this, and it just hit me.

31:15

This generation, LMNOP or Z or X or whatever we're talking

31:19

about, and millennials as well, they were all about

31:23

organic biodynamic. They're all about what you put in your body, but they drink white

31:27

claw, which is kind of ironic. Exactly. But at the same

31:30

time, for the listeners, non alcoholic wine is

31:34

wine. And of course, it certainly has something to do with what

31:38

you start with. It needs to be pretty good for it to end up being

31:40

pretty good, removing the alcohol. But then they have to put

31:43

back stuff in order to make it palatable. And so

31:47

they put water back, and they put flavoring agents, whatever they do. And so all

31:50

of a sudden, now, a non alcoholic winery is not really

31:54

wine, obviously, but it's not as

31:58

clean as maybe a biodynamic wine

32:01

is, or an organic wine might be. And so maybe there's an

32:05

irony between the generational

32:09

output outlook on what you put in your body and

32:12

the idea that we're not drinking alcohol, but what about all the crap we're putting

32:15

back into the wine to make it palatable. Yeah. And again, I don't want to disparage, and a lot of people who are

32:22

working very hard in the low nose space, as they call

32:26

it, but I don't think, I think they

32:30

can all coexist. Yes. Oh, that's a good one

32:34

day when we talk about wine, traditional

32:37

definition of wine is that it is an alcoholic beverage. Yes. And

32:41

if you want to do something wine inspired or wine adjacent

32:45

or a wine proxy, well and good. But I don't think

32:49

that I would hope that the goal is that, oh, 50

32:52

years from now, most wines will be alcohol free,

32:56

because I think that completely changes this history, this

33:00

narrative, this legacy. So I think we can have innovation

33:04

because we're a diverse population and people want to try these things,

33:08

go for it. But let's recognize wine kind of is

33:11

the foundational drink that we're working with. And I think

33:15

that's like the beginning of this conversation, was that these little. Little blips and

33:19

little consumerisms, it led me to have this

33:22

conversation in my head about most winemakers and vineyard owners that

33:26

are not engaging this industry because they think they're going to make a billion

33:30

dollars, will tell you that they're just passing through and they're just stewards of the

33:33

land and stewards of the beverage. And we think about it, you know, Madame

33:37

Clicot was making wine in the late 17 hundreds. Champagne. It's

33:41

pretty much the same as it was, you know, the profile, the flavor

33:44

profile might be a little different, but it's a fermented grape juice

33:48

beverage that's got bubbles in it and it's sealed with a cork. And it's pretty

33:51

much the same after 300 something years. Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of

33:55

interesting, speaking of her, you

33:59

know, she was a pioneer. She was. Had

34:03

her back against the wall to get into this industry. But a woman who was

34:06

a formidable businesswoman of the time

34:11

in women and wine, it's still kind of a struggle out there. And here you

34:14

are, an influencer and a writer.

34:18

Have you encountered any headwinds and sexism

34:22

in this industry? Oh, I think, you know, whenever people ask

34:26

this, I'm like, you have to remember, wine is a microcosm of

34:29

everything else in our society. So this idea that somehow

34:33

the wine industry would be a utopia, Shangri la,

34:36

Kumbaya, that all of these other problems in the world. No,

34:39

we have the power of wine. That, you know, it's kind of

34:43

keeping. Us safe transcends it all.

34:47

No, it's just not true. So,

34:51

yes, I've experienced things, you know, just as I experienced them when

34:55

I worked in other industries, but I do see

34:58

the progress that has been made. You know, when I first started going to wine

35:02

tastings, 20

35:05

1011, I was often

35:08

definitely the youngest. Now I'm no longer the youngest person in the room, which

35:12

is, you know, you've reached that stage like oh, I'm

35:15

sorry. So I definitely. I can check that list. Okay. Not the

35:23

youngest anymore, but I was the youngest. I was often

35:27

the only woman and often the only person of

35:31

color in the room. Now, when I go to tastings,

35:34

especially in a city as diverse as New York, you think about it.

35:38

To have events in New York that didn't reflect the diversity

35:42

of this city, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, it is. Now I

35:45

go to taste things, and I see different ages, different

35:49

backgrounds. Yeah. The progress has been

35:53

made. Now, it doesn't mean that there

35:57

doesn't linger some of these issues that just exist in our society

36:00

still. You know, people who want to mansplain, people who assume

36:04

because, oh, you must only like sweet wines.

36:07

Right? You know, people will make off. Oh, let me tell

36:11

you about the grape and Barolo. Oh, really? Oh,

36:15

Borrello is not the name of the great. Thank you for enlightening me.

36:18

Yeah, well, that's. Yeah, it exists for sure. It

36:25

exists for sure. So the question, because I was at the AAA, and

36:29

for the AAAV, for the listeners, it's the association of

36:33

African American Vendors event in Napa. And I think there

36:37

were 22 or 25 tables. I tasted every wine that was there. Oh,

36:40

wow. And they were fabulous. You know, the whole lineup was amazing.

36:44

Right. And I've had a lot of conversations with folks

36:48

from there. I had a conversation with Dwayne Wade's operative, George

36:51

Walker. George. Yay. George is fabulous. Yeah. And we had

36:55

a great conversation. Yeah. It's an

36:59

intimidating subject, and I wonder if that's not the root of

37:02

why people of color, women,

37:06

LGBTQ community hasn't been involved. Because on

37:10

the outside looking in, it's kind of intimidating. We talked about it a little

37:14

bit before, rather than an exclusive, you know,

37:17

an attempt to keep people out. I don't think that was really the

37:21

case, but I think it's just an intimidating subject. And

37:25

barrier exists. Yeah, intimidation definitely can be

37:29

a factor. And how much of a fact, I think, varies from

37:32

individual to individual. So I think, yes,

37:36

there are trends that we see that impact groups,

37:40

but always say we have to keep the individual in mind. So,

37:45

yes, I did notice there were people coming up at

37:48

the same time as me that I saw kind of drop out and always

37:52

wonder why they faded away. Did they get tired of being the only

37:56

one in the room feeling like they weren't being heard or seen? Whereas my

38:00

nature is I just keep showing up. I'm a little bit stubborn that way. Like,

38:04

I'm not going to let that deter me. So I think it is important

38:07

to always say it's not enough to give people a seat at the

38:11

table. You have to respect their presence and let their voice be

38:15

heard. So I think there was a tendency in the beginning like,

38:18

oh, well, more people are coming. That's great.

38:22

But are they feeling welcome?

38:25

Good point. So, and how do we do that without pandering?

38:29

How do we do that in a respectful way? And I'm not saying I have

38:32

all the answers, and there's certainly a learning curve, but I think

38:36

if a true intent is there, people sense it. And I

38:40

can tell the difference. When someone is inviting me, like,

38:43

oh, Wanda, we know you've been to Italy. Wow. At least 20 times.

38:47

You've written so much about Italy. We want to tap into you for your expertise

38:51

there, as opposed to, oh, we need a black woman in the

38:54

lineup. You sense the difference. I'm very sensitive to

38:58

that because I don't believe in tokenism. I don't like feeling like I'm being

39:02

pandered to. But you also have to create

39:06

a pipeline for people to get the experience

39:09

and the education. So it's great to see the scholarship programs that

39:13

exist now. It's important to show that there's so many

39:17

other careers and wine. You don't have to be a writer or a

39:20

winemaker. You can work for an importer if you have a

39:23

legal interest. You can use your law degree to work in the wine

39:27

industry, be a publicist, be a copywriter, work in

39:30

marketing. So I think there's so many other areas that aren't

39:34

as visible that would benefit from more diversity across the board

39:38

in terms of age, race, gender, all of

39:41

it. You know, that's a fascinating point.

39:45

There are so many angles to this industry and to do. And I

39:49

spent, like I said, there are already 35 years buying wine and bought a lot.

39:53

I think I sold 17 million bottles. But I have

39:57

gotten all that traction all those years. Doesn't

40:00

compare to the exposure I've gotten through this

40:04

podcast, which was generated just because I kept hearing great

40:08

stories here in the shop. I decided to put a microphone in front of the

40:11

stories, but traveling the world, and I was telling this to Angela McCrae the other

40:15

day on the podcast. I said, you know, you're in the

40:18

beginning of a career here, and you are going to find that

40:22

the welcoming arms around anywhere you go in the world

40:27

that you are participating in this industry and the way you are, in her

40:30

case, with the AAAV that you're going to be, you're going to have an

40:34

amazing experience. Like you just said, you can go to Italy

40:37

and represent yourself, and you're like, it's a whole community and a

40:41

whole fraternity. And, I think, irrelevant of your

40:45

race or your sexual orientation or your sex.

40:50

It's worldwide recognition that we're on the

40:53

same page, or we try to be. On the same page, you know? It's so

40:57

true. And I sometimes feel very corny because I feel like I say it

41:00

at every press trip that I'm on, but I'll look around the

41:04

table, and I'm like, how else would this have happened?

41:08

That me, you know, humble background from

41:11

New York, first in my family to go to college. I'm

41:15

sitting with someone who has a title, whose family's been making

41:19

wine for 400 years, someone who's a mayor, someone who's a

41:22

dignitary. I was like, we would never have met

41:27

with if not for wine. And not only not are we

41:30

meeting, we're enjoying each other's company. This is the ultimate

41:34

icebreaker, because we all have this passion, and it lets the

41:37

walls down. It's almost like we give someone the benefit of

41:41

the doubt. Now, look, there's some jerks and wine, too, but in general,

41:46

you're a wine person, okay? We can have a conversation, and then if, you

41:50

know, it's, you know, it kind of opens the door. And that's what I

41:53

really love about it, that people that I

41:57

never would have encountered, you know, are in my circle now and in my

42:01

corner and have really been great allies and

42:04

supporters because we have this shared passion, and I think they

42:08

see how much I love it. You know, you can't think of any other

42:11

industry, and this is more for the benefit of the

42:15

listeners. But that that occurs in, like, if you make

42:18

widgets or semiconductors or if you make lawn furniture,

42:22

nobody cares. If you go to the manufacturing section of Paris

42:26

and have a conversation with a lawn furniture maker, the man you show up in

42:30

the wine trade, and that

42:33

conversation is in recognition, and acceptance is

42:37

immediate. And I think that bodes

42:40

well for the industry when it comes to BIPOC and LBGQ

42:44

community and different sexes, in that

42:49

it really eventually has no

42:52

barriers. It's just making people aware of

42:56

that they did exist. And I say this because I had

43:00

a conversation with Elizabeth Taigny of Cornell Vineyards

43:03

in Spring Mountain and a very strong

43:07

woman and a very good winemaker, and she

43:11

almost was offended when I asked the same question. I just asked you about

43:15

women in wine. And she goes, why does it even enter the conversation?

43:19

Why do I have to have that conversation? I just make good wine.

43:23

I go, you're right. Yeah, no, I get that.

43:27

And it's. Sometimes I'll see a headline,

43:31

let's black woman wine writer. It's like, well, why

43:35

can't it just be wine writer? But I

43:38

get it's important to acknowledge people

43:42

who break barriers, and it's

43:46

hopeful to think that we reach a point where it's so diverse that you

43:50

don't have to call it out anymore. Correct? Not quite sure we're there

43:53

yet. I was on a panel last year and this question came

43:57

up. It was a women and wine symposium. Like, do we still

44:01

need these events in these organizations? I

44:04

said, the reality is, as far as we've come, women are still making

44:08

around eighty seven cents to the dollar compared

44:12

to what men make. Era, which they've been talking about since I

44:16

was a little girl hasn't passed. But I haven't heard that acronym in a long

44:20

time. Yeah, but it's true. And there's still people still working

44:24

on that. So there are still issues, you know, when we

44:27

look at healthcare, when we look at socioeconomic

44:31

issues, you know, some of us are doing really well and we feel like,

44:34

hey, I've made it. And maybe your little

44:38

circle of friends is doing really well. But when you look at the statistics,

44:43

women are still, you know, not getting our fair

44:47

share of the pie sometimes. So I think it's important to

44:51

not say, okay, we're done. So I think that's why it's

44:55

important, and I think it's important for people who feel marginalized,

44:59

you know, for women to get together. I'm the immediate

45:02

past president of La Dame Descoffier. You know, we

45:06

have 44, 45 chapters around the

45:09

world of women in wine, food and hospitality.

45:13

And, you know, I think it's important for women to have these

45:16

communities where they feel like not only they can

45:20

dis a bit, but have a support system, benefit from the

45:24

knowledge of those who've gone before you. How did you navigate these

45:27

challenges to hear from people who have been there before? You know

45:30

what? I have seen change, so we have to keep at it. But

45:34

we're not done. We're not done. But I get what she's saying. You don't want

45:38

the fact that you're a woman or a black person, an asian, Latino, to always

45:41

be the leading headline, because

45:46

I think it's a delicate balance. It's a delicate balance.

45:50

There may not be an endgame to that. Maybe it's just

45:53

humanity, you know, and it's just the viewpoint of humanity,

45:57

humans that you're not going to change the DNA, and you

46:00

need to raise that flag all the time.

46:04

When I was. When I reached out to the AAV in

46:08

2000, I can't remember what social upheaval there was, but it was

46:12

early, two thousands. And I wanted to see if I could

46:15

feature black owned winery wine in my

46:18

club. And I found the association that just

46:22

started, I guess, because it was like 2004, 2006 or something, and there

46:26

were like five members, I mean, literally like five members that were making wines,

46:30

and none of them made enough wine for my club selection.

46:33

So then when I recontacted Angela

46:37

for the show, and now there's 200 members of the

46:40

association, and, you know, there should be more than that. And

46:44

when I brought it up with my friends or other people in the community, the

46:47

wine community, they're like, I didn't know that even existed. I didn't know that was

46:50

a thing, you know, that there was such an association.

46:53

And. But I think the prevailing theme when I was talking to everybody,

46:57

there was like, we know that we're. We're

47:01

representing ourselves as a black winery, but we'd prefer just to represent

47:05

ourselves as a winery when the time comes to do it, because we make really

47:08

good wine and we make. There's a wide

47:12

range of quality. Not quality, wide range of styles

47:16

from Virginia to Napa.

47:19

There was. There was a woman there. I couldn't believe this.

47:23

And it's actually pretty good. But she makes

47:27

a method champagne canned

47:30

sparkler. Interesting. And so if

47:34

you, if you take the next thought, like, okay, how you disgorge it, and she

47:38

goes, I don't. I'm

47:41

like, whoa, okay, so whatever. But it's really, it's really

47:45

quite good. But anyway, the point being, we know we

47:49

should continue to wave the flags and

47:53

present the thing, but not, like you said, the leading element of

47:57

that conversation, it should be, oh, by the way, this is a black owned winery,

48:00

or this is a chinese owned winery, or this is a women owned winery or

48:03

women winemaker. So that the

48:06

recognition exists, but you really want them to swirl that glass and

48:10

go, wow, this is really good. Exactly. You know, just, I want my

48:13

writing to speak for itself. When I give a presentation and

48:17

look, you know, I think every person of color knows that

48:21

look, I've experienced it. You know, when I walk to the front of the room,

48:24

like, hey, welcome to the event. Like, oh, you're the presenter. Yo,

48:28

girl, that looks kidding. But at the end of it, I wouldn't say, well, she was a great presenter.

48:36

Like, oh, she was a great black wide presenter. Yeah.

48:40

You know, and it's complicated. Look, our history is so young. You know,

48:44

it wasn't that long ago that my mom was a little girl in Georgia

48:48

attending segregated schools. So the past is never

48:51

really the past, to quote Faulkner. Right. And this is our very recent

48:55

history still. And like I said, we have a long way to

48:59

go. And these organizations like AAA are important

49:02

because the fact that it went from nine to now, 200

49:05

producers shows that by creating a structure where

49:09

people can learn from each other, learn how to navigate from a

49:13

supportive group, to help eliminate some of those roadblocks,

49:17

it's important to have that. I think you're right. We're not a

49:20

monolith. So you have to balance that group support with

49:24

being able to be your individual self. And that's what I try to do.

49:27

Where was your father a chef? Oh, you know, it's filled.

49:31

My dad, had he. He came too soon, because he would have been a television

49:35

personality for sure. You got 10% of

49:39

it. You're. You know,

49:42

my dad's story was really interesting. He grew up in rural North Carolina,

49:47

moved to New York as a teenager, went to Brandeis

49:50

High School on the Upper west side. That's where.

49:54

Yeah. And let's say, unlike me, my

49:57

dad was not that into school. He was always cutting class,

50:01

and his favorite thing to do is hang out at the

50:04

library at Lincoln center and listen to old jazz albums.

50:09

And there was a man in the neighborhood who was a chef. And one

50:12

day he said to my dad, like, come here. I see you all the time.

50:16

You don't seem like a bad kid. What are you doing? And

50:20

he said to my dad, since you're not going to school anyway, I

50:24

think, I don't remember if it was a week or two weeks. But anyway, he

50:27

took my dad into the restaurant, and

50:30

basically my dad apprenticed and discovered that he really

50:34

loved being in the kitchen and he was good at it. So he never

50:38

went to culinary school, but he worked his way up. And, you

50:41

know, my favorite story is when he cooked for his fun day. And I was

50:44

like, oh, dad, this video, beef stew is so good. He's like, that is Bouffe

50:47

Bourguignon. So he really

50:51

was a student of french classical cuisine.

50:55

That was the foundation. But I always said I had the best of both

50:59

worlds. He made the best north Carolina pulled pork

51:02

barbecue I've ever had in my life. That's true. He also introduced me to Boeuf

51:06

Bourguignon and Pate and wine.

51:11

Yeah. He didn't work at any well known restaurants, most of them are

51:14

probably Kohl's now, you know, the nature of it in New York, but that's how

51:18

he supported us. You know, that's a very french thing to do,

51:22

which is, you know, they kind of have to declare at some point we're not

51:25

going to go to college. We're going to either be a chef. I just got

51:28

done with a podcast with Frederick Caston, who's exactly the same story, except

51:32

in Avignon instead of New York. But basically, you know, in the

51:36

wine industry, it's like that, too. You can sell her out your way to

51:40

being the winemaker, or you can go through, you know, Cornell

51:44

White school or UC Davis and figure that out. But

51:48

what would he say about the kitchen environment? Was it less

51:52

racist? Was it more accepting?

51:56

Oh, interesting. I mean, I think definitely,

52:00

you know, at that time, I know he definitely had experiences.

52:04

I've heard about them. I think,

52:08

you know, I must have inherited this from him. Like, it's not going to keep

52:11

me from doing a thing I love and I think I'm pretty good at, and

52:15

I want to keep getting better. So he kept showing up,

52:18

but I know he had challenges. And I said to him, I said, dad, you're

52:21

so mean in the kitchen. Like, when I would go visit him at work. But

52:25

I think he never wanted. He wanted to have that

52:28

authority. It was important for he was

52:31

running that. He was running the kitchen. And

52:35

sometimes the people, most of the people that he supervised

52:39

weren't black. Right. So was a diverse crew in the

52:42

kitchen. So he wanted. It was very important for him to have

52:46

that presence of, I'm not your best friend.

52:50

I'm the leader. And for many people, that might have been the first time

52:54

they encountered a person of color who was the authority figure.

52:58

Right. I can see that. And now it's much more common.

53:02

But when he was doing it, not so much. Well, you think about it, the

53:06

kitchen environment, like I said, my daughter was a. Worked at the

53:09

Lincoln restaurant. You know, almost every chef

53:14

that's celebrated today in their heyday was like

53:17

that. You had to, because think about the line chef, the sous

53:21

chef, the line cook, the saucier. These people

53:25

most probably don't give a crap about anything, right? And so if you let them

53:29

to their own, to their own leading, you're going to end up with

53:33

a poor product. And so it takes an authoritative figure

53:36

to manhandle the kitchen to make sure it comes out

53:40

the way the leader wants it to come out, because once that plate

53:44

leaves the kitchen, it's a representation of that

53:47

person. How much his

53:51

team respected him. Right. You know, so.

53:55

Yeah, but definitely, I think you're right. I inherited a lot of that. I just

53:58

use it in wine. My cooking is decent, but. Well, but you're

54:02

Ladame d'Escoffier. I mean, the father of

54:06

french food. Your dad had to be proud of that, you know? So.

54:09

Yes, for sure. For sure. I

54:13

find the wine trade very similar to the

54:17

hospital food trade because it is hospitality. When it's all said

54:20

and done, we try to put out a product that people are going to appreciate

54:24

and bring people together that they talk about. And that's the one thing about wine

54:27

that's such a fascinating. I'm sure it's with you,

54:31

whether you're sitting at dinner with your best friends who understand a little bit

54:35

about wine because you've been hanging around them for a while or

54:38

somebody you've never met before, but the conversation

54:42

always comes to what's in that glass. Yeah.

54:46

And then they like to throw out something that they learned that they know, and

54:49

all of a sudden, this unintimidating, unthreatening conversation

54:53

of wine happens. And I love

54:57

that. Yeah. And I try not to be like the know it

55:00

all. Cause I'm not. But I like to move the

55:04

conversation forward because it's. It really is. It's not political. You

55:07

don't have to worry about, you know, offending anybody about making, you know,

55:11

disparaging comments. You can just talk about it.

55:15

Yeah. I think as human beings, you know, we're drawn to ritual as well.

55:19

Right. And everyone is so busy, more of us are working from home.

55:23

So the ritual of sitting at a table, sharing a bottle

55:27

is something that I think is primal in us. And

55:30

wine kind of forces us to take that time out and

55:34

savor the moment, the conversation. We're so much to go.

55:38

A grab and go culture. You grab your coffee, you grab a slice, and you

55:41

eat it walking down the street. And wine kind of

55:45

forces us in a very beautiful way to remember what it's like just to be

55:49

together. True. Such

55:52

a. You were already at our time, which is unbelievable.

55:56

With so much to talk about, but a fascinating conversation.

56:00

I hope we can do it again. Yes. Hopefully in person one day.

56:04

Yeah. We have not plans to get to Manhattan in the near

56:08

future, unfortunately. They used to love doing that to visit my daughter. But

56:13

we're always in Napa, and we'll keep tabs of each other. And

56:17

if I love, I take my little portable studio up to Yonville and I just

56:21

sit in the hotel conference room, and we do podcasts many

56:24

times up there, so we'll just keep tabs and see what

56:28

your travel plans are next time you're up there. We could be up there as

56:31

well. Sounds like a plan for sure.

56:35

Thank you for the time today and cheers. Cheers.

56:48

Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum. Caryn, don't forget to subscribe

56:52

because there's more great interviews on their way. Folks, have