0:00

Carson Leno

0:03

Fallon. Now it's

0:06

wine talks with Paul K.

0:10

Hey, welcome to wine talks with Paul K. And we are in the studio today

0:13

about to have a conversation with Julie. And I always say.

0:19

Delaquila. That too. If you say it in italian

0:23

with the italian accent, it's different introductions.

0:26

Hernandez. Hernandez. That's right. Oh, that would've been easier.

0:30

Hey, listen. Have a listen to

0:34

Chris Phelps. I just re released his episode. I completely

0:37

forgotten about this winemaker in Napa Valley. If you're going

0:41

up the highway 29, you make a hard left right inside

0:45

St. Helena. Make a hard right after that, and you end up in this very

0:49

understated tasting room where Chris Phelps and his son Josh

0:52

make wines. And he had worked in the greatest

0:56

places in the world to make wine and now makes wine in Napa. It's called

1:00

ad Vivim. Incredible conversation and very philosophical

1:03

about winemaking. Also in the studio last week was Matthew

1:07

Borde from Chateau Lagrange Saint

1:11

Julien, a classified growth Bordeaux. And here

1:15

how he works in what is a very exclusive

1:18

industry in Bordeaux, France, but for corporate

1:22

Japan, actually for Suntory corporation. So you'll hear something very

1:26

interesting from Matthew, but not why we're here. We're here to catch up with an

1:29

old friend, an old, you know, I think almost

1:33

a mentor to me. Right. Really? And,

1:37

yes, and because of you, and I tell this story

1:41

all the time. It's what business is

1:44

about. And you've always said, this is

1:48

like, I'm going to help you, and you

1:52

never asked for help back, but we

1:56

always wanted to help each other. We always wanted to grow each other. And I

1:59

have to tell you, when you first came in here about 20 years ago.

2:05

Sorry, I'm turning it off. 20. Was it 20

2:09

years ago that you walked into actually, almost exactly where you're sitting right now?

2:13

Yeah, probably like about maybe like 17 years ago, because

2:17

I started in the chains and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's.

2:20

It's been a long time. You realize, literally the studio where

2:24

you're sitting is steps away from the day you walked in here

2:28

with Bo and he introduced you. Yeah. You know what my

2:32

thought was? What? You don't know? My thought was what?

2:35

Oh, yeah. I tell you this already. I kind of heard it. But you, I

2:39

think you were just like, oh, my gosh, who would

2:42

emotion in here? I'm like, seriously? You know, wine warehouse.

2:50

When they first came out to see me, a young girl came

2:54

and I called the manager and said, look, you know, please don't send me somebody

2:57

who's never done this before because I've been doing it too long, and I need,

3:01

like, I don't want to educate anybody. That's not what I thought about

3:04

you. But Beau had done a really good job before you

3:08

came in, and so I was a little nervous. And what does that mean, a

3:12

good job? You supported us. Well, it

3:15

goes back to this. Business is all about relationships. You

3:19

can't do anything without starting with a

3:22

relationship. And then as you grow

3:26

you, and, like, in that situation and

3:29

you're bringing in somebody, you have to have that foundation and that

3:33

platform where you've built that trust to where he could have

3:36

brought me in through your relationship to be like, hey,

3:40

give her a chance. Let her just come in and bring some

3:44

wines. And. And I think our

3:47

relationship has just been that. Like, I'm sure

3:51

that was the impression of me, but I think

3:55

probably our first meeting, I brought in wines, and I was just like, okay, what

3:58

do you need? What price? Like, how many cases? Like,

4:02

I just was straight with you, too, that I didn't know anything.

4:05

Like, I was new and I'm just learning and, you know, so you

4:09

teach me. Just tell me, like, what you're looking for. The price, the

4:13

profile, all those things that as a

4:17

salesperson, you can narrow down, you know, your

4:20

suggestions and make it work. Not everybody's like that. I mean,

4:23

sales is about matching what you have in your

4:27

quiver to the customer's needs and, or creating the need in

4:31

the customer's mind that what you have is important. So that's not

4:34

natural for one. Salespeople have to learn that took me

4:38

40 years to figure it out. And you were in a very,

4:42

very large organization. And for the listeners, the

4:46

wine and liquor business is rather

4:49

strict or rather rigid in its format. There's not

4:53

a lot of flexibility to run with. And then you add the layers of bureaucracy

4:57

in corporate America, and it's even less flexible.

5:00

And so when did you get. I don't remember having

5:04

this conversation with you. But when did you get into working

5:08

in this industry? Was it always corporate America? No. So

5:12

this, like, whole industry fell out of the sky. It was.

5:16

So what happened was, I'm in college. I actually wanted

5:20

to act and model and do that. I went to Cal State

5:23

Northridge. While I was there, I worked for, you know,

5:26

quest diagnostics, the laboratory. I worked in the managed

5:30

care department with all women, by the way. And then I also

5:34

worked at a tanning salon. And at night I would go and I would do

5:38

promo modeling, because at the time, you could put that on your resume that you

5:41

were doing promo modeling. So, anyways,

5:45

this managed care department, this department of women would literally

5:49

just be like, hey, you go do what you need to do. Check in and

5:52

out. So that's how I was able to get through school and get

5:56

everything accomplished. But I knew that I needed to work my

5:59

butt off to get whatever it was that I needed to get or

6:03

to get where I was going. So, anyways, I would do these jobs

6:07

at night, and this woman walks in, and she's wearing a

6:11

black suit, and I'm probably wearing, like, my little black

6:14

skirt, my little, like, black, you know, tequila t shirt,

6:18

whatever brand it was, and high heels and walking

6:22

around socializing with people, and she walks in a suit. You

6:25

socializing with people? Shocking. So she walks

6:29

in and she starts telling me what to do, and I'm like, so confused.

6:33

Cause I'm like, oh, I don't know. My agency sent me here, and she's like,

6:36

no, I'm the sales representative at this bar

6:40

restaurant, and I booked the promotion so that you could

6:43

help sell the brand. And I'm like, okay. I mean, it's just

6:47

crazy how I had no idea. And, like, going

6:50

through this business talking to people, they have no idea either, like,

6:54

how anything gets behind the bar or why it's listed

6:58

by the glass or by the bottle or what they're pouring you in their. Well,

7:02

if you say, I want, like, a vodka soda, like, you don't know

7:05

how that got there. So you were

7:09

representing the tequila brand. That's why you're wearing the t shirt, and

7:12

you showed up to do this bit. I'm working for the marketing company

7:16

that the supplier. You just walk in the door like, okay, I'm here.

7:20

So what happens is I'm like, I have this light bulb

7:24

moment in my life. It's very clear where I'm like, why is she wearing

7:28

that suit? And I'm wearing this outfit? It was all about the suit, really,

7:31

that just empowered me to be like, okay, I need to go to the

7:35

next level. So that weekend, I

7:39

had a trade show, and I went past a

7:42

gentleman that had, like, four six foot tables, and just, like,

7:46

brand after brand lined up, and I went up to him, like,

7:50

do you represent all these brands? Like, again, I have no clue. I

7:53

have no clue just how anything is

7:57

placed at this point. So he says yes. So I

8:01

take down his info. Turns out it's one of the biggest distributors

8:05

in California. And while looking

8:08

at it, I find the other bigger competitor,

8:13

and turns out I have an interview with both of them on

8:16

the same day. Because you walked in and went to the booth?

8:20

Well, no, because while researching it, I found the top

8:24

two. So I applied it both, coincidentally, which

8:27

I'm saying is more like a miracle. I have an interview with both

8:31

companies. So the first interview, this kind of paints

8:35

the picture for the future and stays with me throughout my

8:39

entire career. It's my competitor. I go in there

8:42

first, and it's like, in some general sales meeting room with tables

8:46

all lined up, and it's three men in suits across

8:50

from me, and I'm sitting by myself in a chair in front of them. Remember,

8:54

I'm like some 22 year old girl. Like, I still have no clue, you know?

8:58

I just know I want to get that job. Like, I want to be in

9:01

that suit, making that money, right? So

9:05

I just recall them, like, laughing and talking to each other

9:09

while I was in the interview. And I just felt, like, so weird. Like, I

9:13

don't even think they're listening to me. So I get my car, and I go

9:16

to the next one. This is in an HR, like,

9:20

office with a gentleman, and he sits me down. He's like, so what is it

9:24

you want to do? And I'm like, oh, there was this girl in the bar,

9:26

and she's wearing the suit. Like, literally went down like that. And he goes, he

9:29

goes, you're talking about the on premise, like, restaurants, bars,

9:33

hotels, clubs. I'm like, yeah, that was it. That sounds good. And he goes, yeah,

9:36

you can't do that. And I'm like, oh, well, how do I get to do

9:39

that? And he goes, you need to be in the chains for at least six

9:42

months. I'm like, okay, well, what's that? And he's like, you gotta get up

9:45

at. So you knew nothing? Two in the morning. You literally knew nothing. I know.

9:49

You gotta get up at two in the morning, and you gotta stock the shelves

9:52

and dust them. I'm like, okay, that's okay. I'll do

9:56

that. And so he goes, hold on a second. He goes

9:59

out, another gentleman comes in, he starts asking me questions.

10:03

They go out again. They come back in, and they say, we like to hire

10:06

you. So that company hired me on the spot. How did that

10:10

feel? Like, right away? Did you expect that? And you were. I

10:14

felt like. I feel like I've always kind of just known my

10:18

purpose. Like, if I'm in the right moment, I just kind

10:21

of. It's just like, right now, we're talking, like you're asking me

10:25

questions, and we're just having a conversation.

10:29

And I'm sure it was just like that with them, too, versus

10:33

the other environment where it was just like, almost

10:37

like, yeah, right. It was all makes sense. Yeah. You said that suit thing

10:40

I want to go back to just for a second. And I worked for corporate

10:44

America. I worked for Xerox. It was the greatest sales organization in the world at

10:47

the time, or one of them, anyway. And one of our. My

10:50

teammates, her husband owned a sporting goods store or worked at

10:54

a sporting goods store, and he used to come to these events that Xerox hosted,

10:58

and we'd all be wearing suits. And one day he pulled me aside, he

11:01

goes, one day I'm gonna wear a suit, too. And I thought,

11:05

you know, I didn't know any different. I just applied for the job. I got

11:08

a job. I wore a suit. That's what you're supposed to do, I thought. But

11:12

there was some kind of ambiance about that. There was some kind of

11:15

aristocracy about seeing somebody in a suit for this gentleman

11:19

that he aspired to do. That sounds like what was happening with you.

11:23

Well, I think it goes back to a generation, too, like

11:26

your parents, your dad being here, and

11:30

it's a form of respect. And I,

11:34

coming from a family that's very, you know, that's. It's important.

11:38

So if that's the attire, that's what I'm gonna wear. You

11:41

know, I don't. That. So that kind of

11:45

goes into. I was immediately put in a male

11:49

dominated business. Yeah, well, it is. There were not any females.

11:53

I mean, it was very few females. Saleswomen. And then as far as leadership, there was none at that time.

12:01

What year was that? Do you remember? So that was

12:03

2004. Wow. It's well

12:07

past. And I was in the corporate America in the eighties, and

12:11

I had to apologize to every woman in my branch, all the salespeople. I

12:15

had to apologize for. What would you do? Because I demonstrated a

12:18

copier, and I alluded to the fact that any secretary

12:22

could do this. And then later, I used her as the pronoun for

12:26

secretaries, and the shit hit the fan. And I was told to

12:29

write, and I had to stuff an apology letter in every key, every

12:33

mail slot at the company saying, I did not mean to

12:37

insinuate that secretaries are women and women are stupid. Yeah.

12:40

So you're talking about 2004, and still there's nobody,

12:44

nobody in corporate America. So maybe it's the liquor business,

12:48

wine. Business, but the thing is, you see something right there where it's

12:51

like every generation has the opportunity

12:55

to make the change, and if you think about, like,

12:59

I think about my managers. The best

13:02

ones were the ones that had women around them,

13:06

and the worst were the

13:10

ones that if I raised my

13:13

voice, I was screaming. If I made a certain face, I'm in a bad

13:17

mood. You know what I mean? Like, never.

13:21

I see. Yes. Yeah. So

13:25

I feel like with what you're saying, too, like, it's important. It

13:28

changes with each of us. And

13:32

so did you feel like then, because of

13:36

that role, because you saw that there was. I mean, you've been here how many

13:39

years? I'm almost entirely staffed by women here. I

13:43

always just work better with them. But did you feel

13:47

like you had a task then to. I always had to prove

13:50

myself. Cause it was always. It was always

13:54

different, especially when you're younger. Like, I grew

13:58

up in this business in my twenties and in my thirties,

14:01

I didn't have my kids till I was

14:05

36, and so

14:08

I gave a lot to this business. And the thing is, is

14:12

you have to give up a lot if you want to keep moving forward.

14:16

And I remember feeling like, in my twenties,

14:20

I was married to the job. Like, it was literally my husband. Like,

14:24

it was just night and day and pretty much

14:27

all the way through. COVID. Pretty much, yeah. I mean, that's why you acted

14:31

here. So. So the chain work is probably the toughest work,

14:35

and the chains for the listeners, I mean, you're. For the listeners. I don't understand

14:39

that when it's what made Gallo famous is how they

14:42

handled merchandising in these big stores. And so you were

14:46

boots in the field. Yeah, you're in the field. You're in the field. You're fronting

14:49

merchandise. You're basically getting up super early,

14:53

and you're meeting all the trucks and all the pallets

14:57

come out into the aisles, and you're just throwing

15:00

loads. And so let's talk about that for a second.

15:04

That was something. Again, as a female. Yeah, I'd be in

15:08

heels because I didn't. You know, a lot of times, I would wear high heels

15:11

to make sure I was at the same eye level as some man that

15:15

I worked with. It was, like, a strategic thing. Like, those

15:19

are things I think about. And so. But then you had

15:23

to. But then I would never give an excuse, like, if I'm in heels or,

15:26

like, someone say, like, can I help you? It's actually something that I deal

15:30

with, like, where I don't like asking for help, because I never

15:33

wanted to give anybody that reason to be able

15:37

to say, like, oh, well, she this or you know, like,

15:42

I just wanted to always be able to do it myself. Yeah. And show them

15:45

that it could be done in three inch heels and with

15:49

nails and. But, yeah, you were throwing cases.

15:53

Cases. Actually, two things that I never liked.

15:56

The hardest part of the business, carrying cases and dealing with

16:00

people's credit. But, yeah, I mean, the cases, like, some of them are

16:04

super heavy, depending on the glass. But you did it. You just did it. Because

16:07

that's what they were having to. Do for the listeners. A case of wine, typical

16:11

bottle of wine is 36 pounds, and if they decide to put it in heavy

16:15

glass, they call it. It's around 50 pounds. So. And I remember

16:19

carrying two cases at a time, my dad's store, but I was 16 and 18

16:22

years old. But let's just focus really fast. Cause this is

16:25

really interesting. But chain work, meaning

16:29

Ralph's, whatever large, big box store there is,

16:33

is more than just sort of handling the account and make sure the wine gets

16:36

there, make sure the booze gets there. It's. You're sort of fighting for shelf space.

16:41

The most famous, I think I mentioned earlier, is the Gallo brothers

16:45

themselves would go into, like, thrifty, the

16:49

pharmacy, and front their own stuff. Yes. And then, can

16:53

I ask you, is that shelf space random? No,

16:57

it's definitely not random. So we have

17:00

surveys. They still go on today, but

17:04

basically, the suppliers are working with Ralph's

17:08

or whoever the chain is. The supplier being the person

17:12

that brings the stuff to you as a distributor? Yes.

17:15

And so that supplier is pretty much sponsoring or

17:19

buying space on the end caps. So you have your aisles, and at

17:23

the end, you'll have featured products. And that's all planned

17:27

out throughout the calendar year for an x amount

17:30

of dollars. So that's how those get

17:34

actually placed in the grocery

17:38

stores. So I did a show with Mike

17:41

Houlihan and Bonnie, and they established the

17:45

brand barefoot cellars. And they're the ones that told me the

17:49

stories about running into Ernest Gallo, fronting merchandise, and they decided to

17:52

copy him. But when he first came to me, and this is

17:55

anecdotal, in 1989, he came to my office, and he

17:59

says, we have a barefoot cellars wine. It's the

18:03

chateau Lafitte feet of the California wine business.

18:07

And the guy left, and I called my dad. I go, this is the dumbest

18:10

thing I've ever heard in my life. I can't believe he's trying to do this,

18:14

and he ends up being the biggest brand in America. So that's what I know.

18:17

So you go through this chain part and are you dying to get out of

18:21

it to do the next level? Yeah. I mean, it's tough because you have all

18:25

those big wigs coming in and wanting to make sure that

18:29

everything that they paid for is in its space,

18:34

but that's, you know, how you grow brands. So then

18:38

you had. I had to be in there for six months, and the

18:42

first month I started, you know,

18:46

applying for positions. You try to find an

18:49

area, a territory, you know, where you're gonna have

18:53

anywhere from 40 to, like, 120

18:56

accounts. You usually want it to be somewhat in your

19:00

backyard. So that took about a month, and one came

19:03

up. And that's actually when I first met our good

19:07

friend Melissa. Wow. Bo had a

19:10

cherry, picked her right out of Buca de Beppo. And

19:14

so I show up, and it's just. It's actually a funny thing

19:17

because she wouldn't even look at me like she knew who I was. But again,

19:21

I'm walking in like, hello, you know? That's funny.

19:24

And so she got the job, and.

19:28

But it was crazy. Again, another miracle,

19:32

another position open the next month, and then Beau hired

19:36

me that month. I didn't realize that Melissa has such

19:39

pedigree working at Bucca de Beppo.

19:43

Hey, she is literally, she's a hustler. She's the best

19:47

in. She's the best in Cali, for sure.

19:50

So Beau hires you. So you were. So

19:54

when you came here, you were working for Beau, or you

19:57

were. So basically, I started in the chains, and then I got

20:01

hired on with Bo as a sales rep in the

20:04

union for the on premise. So I had, like, burbank lunch

20:08

restaurants where they pour stuff. Yeah. So

20:12

it was a lot of fun because Pasadena at the time, like, it. It

20:16

was a great time. Again, we were, Melissa and I were, like, in our twenties

20:19

and twenties and thirties, and we just went out

20:23

and goes back to relationships. We would

20:26

go there, support our accounts, come through with

20:30

whatever anybody needed the next week, and just grew the

20:34

business. And that was a new learning curve for you. Yeah. And you're

20:37

still, what, 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's

20:41

crazy. You're starting early in the morning because you have to plan

20:45

out your day. What does it need to sell? Your goals, all that kind of

20:49

stuff. Quotas. And then you're taking care of any

20:52

unfinished business, and you're just hitting the field and just seeing as

20:56

many people as you can, you know, throughout the day. So let's

21:00

delineate for the listeners that understand, you know, because I think

21:04

by design. And really no reason for the consumer to understand that. But when you

21:08

walk into a restaurant and you're handed that wine list, that's

21:12

not by accident. And if you order vodka on the

21:16

rocks, like you said earlier, or something that's coming from the well, which is the.

21:20

What they call the main pour of that store.

21:23

But if you call a drink, you ask for something

21:27

in particular, like Belvedere or something, then that's a different level.

21:31

Tito's. Tito's still pumping. Tito's.

21:34

So for the listeners,

21:38

all that is organized by people like

21:42

you coming in. And saying, look, and our relationship.

21:45

Yes. So just like if

21:49

a consumer had a relationship with an owner and they like to drink something

21:52

specific, the owner brings it in. Right? So

21:56

for the sales person, it's the relationship. I

22:00

mean, that's it. I mean, that's basically the

22:04

recipe to anyone's success in this business. But how do you build that

22:07

relationship? Is just. Is me showing up saying,

22:11

Paul, you're way more versed in wine

22:15

and spirits than I am at the time that I met you. And even

22:19

still now, and just being honest

22:22

about who you really are and what you're capable of doing. I know

22:26

that I might not be able to talk about it, but if you tell me

22:29

something specific, I'll go. I'll make sure it's the right thing. I'll

22:33

research it so I can come back and talk about features and

22:36

benefits and then get you the price point you need. And

22:40

then that just builds trust, you know, showing up again and again.

22:45

You don't have to be a genius in any field as long

22:49

as you have the passion to want to go out and

22:53

figure it out and win and be successful and do what you. Say you're gonna

22:57

do. Exactly. I have to say, the 35 years I did this,

23:00

the cycle of sales reps, all the various

23:03

suppliers, let's just take the big guys.

23:07

It ebbed and flows. There was one time where I was doing a lot of

23:10

business with one of your competitors, and that gentleman moved on,

23:14

and it plummeted. It literally plummeted from, like seven,

23:18

$800,000 a year to like, nothing. And what's sad is,

23:22

well, and it's sad that they had the opportunity.

23:25

They never didn't have the opportunity. It's

23:29

just taking advantage of it, seeing how far

23:33

we can go with something. And when you build that trust,

23:36

that's when it gets super fun in the business, because

23:40

that's when both parties can be super

23:44

creative and come up with all kinds of

23:48

ways to innovate. And to change, like, okay, well, this isn't

23:52

selling anymore. How can we make it work and then sell

23:55

it? So I just. That's the best part about building the

23:59

relationship for me, was just, like, being able

24:03

to collaborate and just get super creative and make

24:06

fun, because we all have to move boxes. No, you're right.

24:10

We both have to move boxes. So if you can't move that box for that

24:13

reason, we need to figure out why and fix it. There was

24:17

the success that you had here, and I want to get into

24:21

the gender specific problems that you encountered, but

24:25

it always seemed to me, and I, of course, don't know the

24:28

emaciations of corporate wine and

24:32

distilled spirits, America, but it was always obvious,

24:36

particularly with the volume that we were buying, which was quite a bit at our

24:39

peak. I mean, we were buying 8700 cases of wine at a time

24:43

that it was your fearlessness

24:47

inside the company. Yes. Like, how much work you're going to put into doing this

24:50

for Paul and then trying to do it. And you were successful.

24:54

I'd say 90% of the time, when I needed something from you, you'd pull it

24:58

off. Yeah. And not knowing how high up the ranks you had to go to

25:01

do that, it, um. That's one of the

25:05

crazy things that I think gets you towards the end is, like,

25:09

you move mountains for people because you really care.

25:13

And it just. I think that's what kind of, like, it gets to

25:17

be a lot, but that's what you're doing. You're literally. You have to start

25:21

selling to your own company. I got to sell to the credit department

25:25

that the order's going to release and he's going to cut a check. I have

25:28

to tell the inventory person, yes. I have to line up

25:32

everything, that here's a contract that he's going to take the 700

25:35

cases I'm having to sell to everybody

25:39

to get it done. And at the end of the day, it goes back to

25:43

just being true to yourself and

25:46

just everyone just being like, you know, you're gonna need to

25:50

sell it for that price point at some point. Like, do it now. I

25:54

can't tell how many people, and they would. Wouldn't do it in previous

25:57

deals, and then would come back a year later, nine months later, and

26:01

say, we still have it then the wines, not the wine, wasn't any good at

26:04

that point, and so they had their shot. So inside

26:08

selling corporate America, we've got hierarchies, we've got to go up the

26:12

ladder, we have to go to the supplier sometimes, like, paul's going to buy this

26:15

wine, like the hess. You remember the Hess shirt tail cabernet? I mean, that was

26:19

like incredible price, right? Because

26:23

I'll just tell the listeners that that deal came down to

26:26

such a substantial discount, but it was less money than the

26:30

penalty imposed by the supplier or the winery or the group supplying the

26:34

wine was going to fine at the end of the year because the inventory was

26:37

still here. So this is like stuff that people. Well, that's one where I had

26:40

to get creative. That's one where the creative side came out.

26:44

Cause that's a well known brand, but the brand

26:47

that you had access to, not everybody else

26:51

had access to because, you know, it was a

26:55

restaurant, right? So true. That was a

26:58

selling point for me to be able to go to them, to be like,

27:02

how cool is this that we're gonna get this wine

27:05

in, you know, 200 homes and they're gonna

27:09

see the brand name and those impressions. And

27:13

so that's what I'm selling too. So this is not an easy task. I mean, for a male,

27:22

not an easy task. Like I said, I worked at corporate America. I totally

27:25

understand the hierarchies and the outlooks. The 30 day, 60 day, 90 day

27:29

outlooks, the brand. What are you doing with this account? I know all those conversations.

27:32

I know them well. But you're

27:36

one of a few women that are in the street fighting

27:40

for this position. And you talked about earlier how it was

27:44

married to the job. I mean, that sounds like it

27:47

anyway. But tell me about headwinds.

27:51

Not to say disrespect, and I don't mean,

27:54

but that extra effort it took because you're a woman.

27:58

Um, I definitely, it

28:02

first starts with appearance, so

28:06

I can't tell you how many women. It's funny,

28:09

I, I don't, I feel like, in a way,

28:14

as much as I want to empower women

28:18

at the same time, I'm like, but you gotta play the

28:22

game, okay? And especially when you're in sales.

28:25

So for sure, when you show up and it's four men, don't

28:29

give them limp hand shake. Like, give them a hard

28:33

handshake, look at them in the eye and let them know you're ready to rock

28:36

and roll. Like, that's against the grain. Do you

28:40

think for most women, I. Don'T think

28:43

that they think like that. Yeah. And you? I think

28:47

it comes from being an athlete

28:51

and being very competitive. I'm very competitive

28:55

wanting to win, and you have to have that in

28:59

you. No one can teach you to do that. I mean, at the end of

29:02

the day, you're gonna either grab someone's hand and give them a

29:05

firm handshake, or you're not males. I know men that don't do that.

29:09

Yeah. And it's first impression for me. Side note, real

29:13

fast, we're talking about acting. Yeah. And there's this one methodology

29:17

called Chubbuck. And she. I've been reading her book, and it's

29:20

exactly that. It's like you have to

29:24

embrace that you want to win. Whatever, whatever role you're playing

29:28

and whatever emotions you're pulling back or pulling from,

29:31

it's basically about winning. Your objective as the actor,

29:35

whatever your role is in this job and this overall thing, I thought when you

29:39

said that, I go, wow, that's really what it is. It's like you. If you're

29:42

not motivated to, it's not win. Like, you don't mean

29:46

winning by cheating somebody else. You mean winning by

29:49

accomplishing your goal. Well, you have to stay ahead. That's the other

29:53

thing, too. So in a way, you have to win, especially

29:57

if you're just getting started. You have to prove yourself, and you're going

30:01

to have to prove yourself again and again. You're going to have to reinvent

30:04

yourself by accepting change and growing with the

30:08

changing times. I mean, when I first started, we were using those, like,

30:12

brick tells on units where you, like, used the payphone that was

30:16

all sticky and the facts, like, you'd hold it up

30:19

to the phone, to pagers and, you know what I mean?

30:24

Now everyone's just got their head in the computer, not building

30:27

that relationship with the customer. So

30:32

it has to do with you just accepting change

30:35

and rolling with it, because in this business, it

30:38

continues to change. It also repeats

30:42

the past, too, and just, you know,

30:46

reinvents the wheel. But anyways,

30:49

how long was it before. You felt like, or did you ever feel,

30:53

like, absolutely accepted by the rank, rank and

30:57

file and the management? So that

31:00

goes back to what I first mentioned when we started. It goes in waves,

31:04

because if you are working for a manager that doesn't

31:08

accept the opinion of women or

31:11

accept how a woman got something

31:15

done, it's going to be a different

31:18

experience versus a manager who

31:22

takes a step back and says, go. Just

31:26

go be you. Rock and roll. Let me know what you

31:30

need, any support, anything like that. And then you got your supply

31:34

behind you, too. I mean, you can do anything.

31:37

So, fortunately, the last couple

31:41

I had were like that, and it made

31:45

it made it easier for me to retire because

31:49

at that point, I felt like I had broken every glass ceiling I could

31:53

break and done everything that I could do there.

31:57

And my purpose and my time was. Was done, and it was.

32:00

I needed to move on to taking care of the kids. I have to tell

32:04

you, Sandra and I talk about this. My wife and I talk about this all

32:07

the time for the listeners that when we

32:11

retired, was the same day you retired. Oh, yeah. March 31.

32:15

Wow. Oh, yeah. April. Mine was April 3, but yeah.

32:18

And I say, you know, without Julie's help

32:22

all these years, and I want to make sure I helped her

32:26

do the things that she needed to do. We retired at the right

32:29

time on that relationship alone because I would have had to start all over

32:33

again with a new rep who has different motivations,

32:37

who doesn't. Whatever it is, our relationship

32:40

synergized, and we got a lot done together. And

32:44

that was kind of writing on the wall when you say things happen for a

32:47

reason. That was an important relationship that I lost.

32:50

That would have been hard to replace, would have made my job a lot harder.

32:54

Yeah. I have to tell you an anecdotal story. In

32:56

1982, when I was selling copiers to

33:01

Vernon, 82, by the way, is. A very important

33:05

year. Why? Oh, the year I was

33:08

born, I was gonna say. And the year started his business.

33:12

Really? When you were talking about Phelps earlier, that was one of the first places

33:16

we went away with when we. Together with Joseph Phelps.

33:20

Yep. And we drank 1982. Wow. Okay. So it's all right. This

33:24

all comes for a circle. Full circle again. There was a guy named Bill. He

33:27

was one of my great

33:31

relationships in my career and a very interesting business because they made

33:35

the machines that bottle or canned seven up in coke and stuff.

33:38

So they're the colangelist can company. And so my knowledge of

33:42

canning wine goes back to 1982 when I used to watch these

33:46

machines. Anyway, it was clear he did not

33:50

appreciate women in the workforce. Obvious. And I did.

33:53

Never asked him. Never came across the

33:57

conversation. We'd never discussed it. But he was

34:01

a short sleeve, polyester white button down shirt guy. And you could

34:05

just. I knew it. And I had to call my

34:08

boss, who was a female at the time, great

34:11

manager. She says, I want you to call his

34:15

boss. And, you know, going over somebody's head is not a good

34:18

idea generally. No. I go, look. She goes, I need this

34:22

sale. And it was a big sale. It was like a $200,000 copy. Okay.

34:26

$200,000 copy. Yeah. Okay. That's a lot.

34:29

1982 also. Yeah. So I call the company, and I asked for the

34:32

president. The answer she goes, hello? And I said, this Paul from

34:36

Xerox, blah, blah. And he goes, we're gonna buy it. Thank

34:39

you for calling. I got a phone call immediately after from Bill saying, what

34:43

are you doing? How can you go over my head like this? You know, that's

34:47

the kind of manager he was. I'm reflecting on the reason, because this probably

34:50

exists in the wine and booze business. And I knew if

34:54

I was able to discreetly say that my

34:57

woman manager asked me to call him, that I'd

35:01

be off the hook. So I said, bill, I was

35:05

talking to my manager, and she told me to call. That's all I said. And

35:09

he goes, your boss is a woman? I go, yeah. He goes, you know,

35:13

they shouldn't be in the workforce. And I was totally off the hook because

35:16

of his sexism. Totally off the hook. And I

35:20

thought, wow. But you're talking about different part of America.

35:23

But there still is a disparity in

35:27

corporate America in executives, particularly in the wine and liquor industry

35:31

of executive women. Did that change at all when you were going through this?

35:35

Um, no, it doesn't. I. I mean, I can't tell you. I've been

35:38

in a lot of meetings where I've had men

35:42

just not even look at me because

35:46

they don't. Are they nuts? They don't know. Well, they just. They don't

35:49

know. They think I'm just there, like, taking notes. Yeah.

35:53

Um, I'd say for a lot of my meetings,

35:56

if I am walking in with a male sales

35:59

representative, I mean, I could be three levels higher.

36:04

And they would assume the sales rep was the manager.

36:07

Wow. And they would always have to correct the

36:11

buyer to say, actually, this is, you know, she's

36:14

director, she's a division manager. Whatever it was at the

36:17

time, that happened a lot. That's amazing.

36:21

Really. Yeah. So. So let's say now

36:25

you've done this. You. You were very successful.

36:29

You were put in charge of some rather important,

36:34

what they call allocations for the listener. If there's only so much available

36:37

to the whole country, then each market

36:41

area gets so many bottles of whatever it is, whether it's bourbon

36:44

or wine or whatever. And you became in

36:48

charge of some of this high level allocations?

36:51

Yes. Was that a promotion at that point?

36:56

Nobody else wanted to do it? Yeah, it's definitely a job

36:59

everybody wants because, I mean, you have

37:03

access to the best of the best, and they

37:06

are extremely limited. And

37:10

I think COVID changed a lot of it.

37:13

But, yeah, there were bottles that

37:17

sometimes I would get, like, three bottles for all of Southern

37:20

California or my region,

37:24

and I'd have to allocate them out to the right

37:28

buyers. And it was tough. So tough. It's really tough.

37:31

But was that a promotion inside the company or just added to your job?

37:35

Okay, so I went from on premise sales

37:39

representative. Then I became a key account manager, and then I became a

37:42

division manager, and then COVID hit,

37:46

and I became a

37:50

director of sales. That's where that job became.

37:53

Yeah. So when did you say

37:57

you had. How old are your kids now? Four years? They're seven. They're seven?

38:01

Yeah. Wow. Triplets. So when did

38:04

it hit you that, wait a minute,

38:09

I can't do it all having. Well, the triplets, which is, you know,

38:13

not easy for anybody, let alone a full time mom. But you weren't a full

38:16

time mom. You were working in the streets. This is a very demanding job. Still

38:21

district manager. When did you start thinking, well,

38:24

it's in that business. You're out late

38:28

all the time. You're doing several dinners a week.

38:33

You're playing golf a lot, which is awesome.

38:36

It's fun. But when you're out, everyone

38:40

knows it slows you down. You can't do what you could do if you were

38:44

in the office or out in the field. So there's a lot of

38:48

trips away, a lot of nights staying in other

38:51

counties, for example, lots of

38:55

alcohol, amazing food.

38:59

There's a lot of perks and stuff. But you're away, and you're not

39:03

present with your family or with what

39:07

maybe yourself, you know, and taking care of yourself.

39:10

And I think what happened was

39:15

I got into that director position,

39:18

and I saw that there was nowhere else to

39:21

go. And it's funny, like, when you want

39:25

to work on your career and you want to continue growing and making more money

39:29

and climbing that ladder, it really is like a

39:33

chess game. You have to think a couple steps

39:36

ahead. And what happens if this person goes here

39:40

or this happens or they realign this division

39:44

or take away these positions? So

39:48

it's just a lot of thinking ahead and planning, but

39:51

I feel like every move I made

39:55

was done for a certain reason at the right

39:58

time. And when COVID hit, they furloughed

40:01

everybody, so there was just a few of us left.

40:05

And I never worked so hard in my life when I thought I had

40:09

already worked so hard. Like, I feel like I'd already,

40:12

you know, even when I was pregnant with the triplets, like, I won

40:16

manager of the year that year, and,

40:19

like, so I felt like I just done everything I

40:23

could, and that business everything shut down.

40:27

Like, LA is still recovering from it. If you drive down there, they're

40:31

still boarded off. And

40:34

so going through that was hard because it

40:38

was from basically 06:00 a.m. To about 02:00 a.m. No

40:41

joke. Because it was dealing with people's credit and trying to get

40:45

them up and running again because they had been closed, they hadn't had

40:49

a liquor order since St. Patrick's Day.

40:53

So it was just a crazy time. And then I

40:57

had a dinner one night with a female executive,

41:01

very few, but this one runs quite a few

41:04

states. And I just, I was

41:07

overhearing her talk about her kids, and I said, oh, you have two kids? Yes.

41:11

Oh, who's taking care of the kids? Oh, my husband. Oh,

41:15

okay. Does he stay at home? Yeah, he stays at home. So I'm just like,

41:19

putting this all together and, you know, they say, like,

41:24

I don't think you can have it all

41:28

because you can't give everything

41:32

100% of yourself. Like, you can't be present for

41:35

everything. It's like the same as they say. Multitasking really isn't, like,

41:39

efficient. I'm a multitasker. But they

41:42

say it's really not efficient because you're not giving that one thing

41:46

everything and you're not just finishing it. So

41:50

I wanted to be more present

41:54

because if it's not your significant

41:57

other doing it for you at home, it's

42:01

somebody else and it's not you. Your husband

42:05

is a thriving electrical business. He's not

42:08

home. Very successful business. He's hardest worker

42:12

I know. He's out of the house by 415 to meet a load,

42:16

and he comes home at 630 for dinner. And it's

42:19

just, that's how we, we were. We're just like, so

42:23

you're both doing this crazy machine where I have a

42:27

nanny, and then it's like I have to hire someone to

42:30

overlay, like, because I can't fit 8 hours

42:34

in that business and do an eight hour work day. Was that gnawing

42:37

on you for a while until you had this conversation or you just kind of

42:41

woke up to it? No, this is something I had actually been

42:44

asking, you know, for years. And you kind of. You have to wait for

42:48

the right moment for your family too, you know, for it to make sense

42:53

for the family to do that, to

42:57

step away from a very

43:01

great position. Well, there's obviously

43:04

the salary and the work that's obviously

43:08

counts. You're eating at the best places, you're drinking the

43:11

best stuff, you know, private

43:15

dinners all the time, golfing of the best courses. I mean,

43:19

it's. It's. It's amazing, but it just.

43:22

It became where I just wasn't present, and that's what I wanted to

43:26

do. And I wonder, and I also felt that I had another purpose like

43:30

this. I had done everything I could. Yeah,

43:34

that's a pretty serious revelation. Mm hmm. To

43:38

try reflect on that. And, you know, we only have one pass through here,

43:41

so you want to maximize that value. And I was thinking that

43:45

I had a winemaker. Tell me once, man, I eat the best food, I go

43:48

to the best places, I drink the best wines, I meet

43:51

the most amazing people. But his comment was, I don't make a lot of money

43:55

doing this. And, you know, even me having done

43:59

all this, and now we're starting to travel and get around and try to use

44:02

some of the relationships, I still feel like I want

44:05

to be home sometimes. Like. Like I want to

44:09

lever. We're going to Bordeaux, and I'm going to see all these great people that

44:11

I've interviewed on the show, and we're going to have so much fun together. But

44:14

I'm also sort of thinking, I can't wait to get home when that's done. And

44:17

I'm wondering if even a single person, even if you weren't married,

44:21

even I wasn't married and we were doing that, we'd probably still burn out a

44:24

little bit. Yeah. I mean, think about this. How often do you go

44:28

and do you really just, like, stop for a second and go

44:31

walk in the vineyard by yourself? No, like, when's the last time you've done

44:35

that? Yeah. Right. And if you think about it, every time you go visit

44:39

one of those awesome wineries and you're hearing about the history

44:43

and the views, like, I can see napa in my head right now is what

44:46

I can see. I see a liquor store.

44:50

Yeah, but you should be doing that. You know what I mean? It's like stopping

44:53

and smelling the roses. Like, it just has become too

44:57

fast paced. Like, a text isn't a text. An

45:01

email is not an email. It's like, you better be looking at all of it.

45:04

Twenty four seven. And, you know, especially in that business, there's no

45:07

boundaries. No, because some places. No time

45:11

borders. No. Some close at 02:00 a.m., hey, there's some out there that close at

45:14

04:00 a.m. And then guess what? They open at 06:00 a.m. So restaurant

45:18

tours aren't exactly the nicest people when it comes to respect of your

45:22

time and your family. If, you know, for the listeners. I wanted to just touch

45:26

on the COVID side. What happened in the La market all over the country

45:29

is that most businesses, if you and I were going to start a

45:33

winery, we would want to be in a restaurant because it's a house pour or

45:37

it's on a list. It's like an annuity. People buy the glass

45:40

volume. Yeah, it's volume. Right. And when the COVID shut

45:44

down all the restaurants, then 80% of the businesses,

45:48

suppliers, I mean, I think your competitor put like 200

45:51

people on the street or something. Ridiculous. Yeah. So. But

45:55

it didn't matter because there was nothing we could do. And

45:59

then it turned into to go business and

46:03

packaging, you know, wine and spirits coming out and in different

46:07

packaging. And now look at the. Look at the shelves in the grocery store now.

46:11

I know. And they always say the on premise builds

46:14

brands. You know, we talked about that a lot. Like in this business

46:17

and it's true. There's an entire aisle now of

46:21

canned wines, spirits, pouches,

46:25

all kinds of things like that. You know, you were very funny during this process

46:28

and you were self admittedly, and you probably would do it today,

46:32

but I would try to teach you something about

46:36

wine and you'd go one. Ear, not the other.

46:41

Except for when you talked about like your family

46:44

and I love those stories. You would go,

46:48

okay, so how can I make this deal happen? Yeah, can we just get to

46:51

how many cases and what's the bottle cost? I need to get to. And

46:55

does it have to be Stelvin or quark? All the rest of the stuff is

46:59

going on. So are you happy that you did this? Yeah, I'm

47:03

very happy. It's taken a few

47:06

months to kind of find myself and get back to

47:10

just like breathing again.

47:14

You mentioned that your kids. And I'm with you on that.

47:18

I'm still struggling. I still can't like shut down. I still

47:21

can't believe I don't have to be somewhere for something. Yes, a

47:25

lot of that. But you said your kids didn't trust you when you got home.

47:29

Oh, wow. You remembered that? Yeah, I'm actually still

47:33

dealing with that. Really? And I think it has to do with just again,

47:37

you're not fully there, you're not present. You have

47:40

a team of people that you trust and that you've

47:44

overly communicated as much as you can and shown them as

47:48

much as you can. But at the end of the day, it's not you. And,

47:51

you know, there's a lot of times where it's like, oh yeah, I'll try to

47:54

be home at your 830. Like I want to rush it. And I'm sitting there

47:57

with owners of brands that have just flown in

48:01

and now they're, you know, their head of PR from New York is here

48:05

and I'm sitting right next to them and it's now going to be midnight. How

48:08

you did that? How did you justify, like, you're sitting with this guy and I

48:12

know exactly what you're talking about and you're

48:16

chomping at the big cause, you know, that the kids are doing whatever Frank's doing,

48:19

whatever. How did you justify at that moment? Did you just go, I just gotta

48:22

get through this? Well, that's where the trust is

48:25

lost because I know that I have a support

48:29

team that's gonna, you know, get him into bed and read him

48:33

a book and do all the things that I wanted to do.

48:37

So I was able, you know, to do that. Frank

48:42

always supported me that way to make sure that I could keep working

48:46

and stay focused. But I was thinking about it the whole time because,

48:50

you know, I probably did say I was going to be home at nine and

48:53

next thing you know, he's asleep and I'm walking in. 1130.

48:56

Yeah. That cause friction? Oh, yeah. I think

49:00

it causes, I mean, it. Would in any marriage. I'm just

49:04

wondering. Oh yeah. I mean, think about it. I'm sure the

49:07

women are always thinking like, what is my husband going out to do right now?

49:11

He's at another bar, he's drinking. Oh, great. At St. Patrick's Day or

49:14

it's Cinco de Mayo or whatever it is. And next thing you know,

49:18

he has to stay at a hotel. What is he really doing? I mean, you

49:22

have to have a solid foundation and,

49:27

you know, and just trust your partner.

49:31

But it is crazy because, I mean, let's be real. You're in

49:34

bars, you're on alcohol. It's, the temptations

49:38

are huge. In the eighties, in corporate America was

49:42

drugs. I mean, in the halls of the greatest

49:45

corporations, drugs. And there was so much infidelity and

49:49

alcoholism at that time, which probably isn't all that different now. It's just more

49:53

discreet. But I can't imagine when you add to

49:56

it that the product being sold is, you know,

50:00

dependent, mind altering. Yeah. Depends on this, right?

50:05

Yes. In order for it to be successful. Yep.

50:08

Well, okay. So I will say, though, what I

50:12

loved about being a woman in this industry

50:16

is once you do prove yourself right, that you can

50:20

play with them, that anything they do, you can do better.

50:24

I used to say that all the time. Like, anything they do, I can do

50:27

better. I can be cliched, but we're gonna do that. But

50:30

basically, like, it got to a point where,

50:34

respectfully, like, they became brothers.

50:37

So I also think that's part of how I was able to

50:41

do it for so long, you know, married with. With

50:45

little ones, is that I was on a team.

50:48

You know, it was like being on a baseball team. Like, those were my

50:52

teammates, and they protected me, and

50:56

I always felt, you know, safe. So,

51:00

you know, there's a double edged sword to this, a little bit. Looking at this

51:03

picture over your shoulder of my dad. Oh, yeah, I love that. And I remember

51:07

this well. I remember the day he took the picture. I'm like, what are you

51:10

doing? Why are you doing this? And thank God he did. But

51:14

I was about to do a monologue to test my acting skills, just so you

51:18

know. Yeah. And the stories are going to be just snippet stories of my father,

51:23

because I think what you taught your children,

51:27

even though you're at a crossroads now and you're back

51:31

home and the kids are learning that I have a mother here all the time,

51:35

they also saw an amazing work ethic. Yes.

51:39

And I think there's value to that, even though you can't tell today.

51:43

I see it actually already. You do? I do. My

51:46

son Vincent, he's very much like Frank

51:50

out with. He's helping him every Saturday. He gets in his

51:54

precision electric uniform, and so does Frankie now, too.

51:58

And Frankie's been working, just modeling, and we're

52:02

going to get into acting, hopefully. And he knows

52:06

that if I do this job, I'm going to make money, and it can go

52:08

into my savings account and I'm going to buy a car later, that's

52:12

how he's talking about it. That's great lessons. And Francesca, she's

52:16

so brave and strong, and I see her

52:20

with her brothers, and, like, I. I see myself in it now. I just gotta

52:24

be, like, not so quick to

52:27

get angry or snappy, because I see you're getting a little bossy, like

52:31

me, but that takes years of, like,

52:34

learning, you know, how to finesse that and make

52:38

it work to your advantage. But they see two parents that are working hard,

52:41

and I don't think there's any greater lesson than that for

52:45

particularly in today's generations that are growing up digitally

52:49

with information at their fingertips and services at

52:53

their fingertips that we never had, you know, and

52:56

for them to have a work ethic, because that's what's gonna

53:00

prevail when it's all said and done. Like, my kids are very

53:04

hard working. They're millennials. They act like it. They're pain in the

53:07

ass. But it's from you, and it's from your parents. Right.

53:11

And Sandra and her parents, just like it is my

53:15

parents and my grandparents who are still alive. My grandma's 89 and my

53:19

grandfather's 90. And I

53:22

saw how hard they work, and I saw how hard my parents worked

53:26

and struggled at times in the beginning. And I

53:30

learned at a very young age that if you wanted something, you had to work

53:34

for it. And so with the kids now, it's hard because they are

53:38

so. They're privileged. I mean, they have everything at their

53:41

fingertips, and it's. I'm working on right now,

53:45

just teaching them that, you know, it's not so

53:49

easy for everybody. No. And you have to work hard and.

53:52

And respect the things that you have and be grateful

53:56

for everything that you have, you know, gratitude. Even

54:00

better lesson. Yeah. And so

54:03

triplets. Yes. I mean.

54:08

That'S a whole nother story. That's. Yeah. It's really, really

54:16

exciting to watch. I've been very honored to be part

54:19

of your career. Oh, thank you. And watch. And you

54:23

always had ideas. We're almost on an hour already.

54:26

But you always came up with new ideas. You're the person you gotta

54:30

call this. Person to take care of. I'm like, Julie, I got, you know. No,

54:34

but you gotta call her. She's. Any think tanks out there,

54:38

give me a call. I will solve that problem for

54:41

you. There is a wine think tank called Adoni Global. It's out of

54:45

France, in London, and they think

54:49

tank through the industry of fine wine, wines

54:52

of caliber, that, you know, the history. Not the history,

54:56

but the future of it, because consumerism has changed so

54:59

much. And you got out at the right time. Yeah, you

55:03

really did. And I feel. I feel extraordinarily

55:06

fortunate to have gotten out with a deal like this.

55:10

So. Yeah, no, it's very exciting. I'm happy for you. And,

55:14

yeah, you're lucky that after. What was it,

55:17

day after Christmas? The Stanley cup. Did you see all the, like, feed where

55:21

the kids were getting Stanley cups for Christmas? It

55:25

was like the hot gift. I would

55:29

have been in here that Monday going, all right, we're going to put together a

55:32

pouch that fits in the Stanley cup.

55:38

So thank goodness, thank goodness, thank goodness.

55:41

It's really, really great to see you. It's really great to hear the stories. And

55:45

I think we have more to talk about. Maybe in the future as

55:49

things settle. Down home and we have dinner together coming up

55:52

sometime. Who knows when that is? Yes, we need to do that. And

55:56

just thanks for coming in. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Cheers.

56:00

Cheers. Thank you for listening to wine talks with Paul Callum, Cary. And don't forget to

56:12

subscribe because there's more great interviews on their way.