0:00

Welcome and Clay Travis wins and losses.

0:03

For those of you who have not listened before,

0:05

We've done a lot of these, I think over

0:08

forty now, and the idea is

0:10

these are long form conversations,

0:12

not a lot of commercial breaks, but that will be

0:15

just as good if you listen to them

0:17

today as if you listen to them in five

0:19

or ten years. And we're exploring

0:22

the idea of the wins and losses

0:24

that exist over the course of someone's

0:27

career, can be in sports, business, media,

0:29

can even be a big story in general.

0:32

Um, just a really fun conversation

0:35

allowing you to be a little bit more

0:37

in depth than you might be able to on television

0:40

or certainly in a quicker radio interview.

0:42

And our guest today is a guy that

0:44

I have been watching since I was a very

0:46

young man. Alexei lawllis

0:49

one of the most famous American soccer players

0:51

of all time, recently returned

0:54

from World

0:56

Cup. I guess technically it was the one

0:59

world, right, It's twenty two, all the years run

1:01

together out in Qatar, which

1:04

I believe is the way you're supposed to pronounce it. Alexei,

1:06

have you recovered from being on the road

1:09

for that long in Qatar in the Middle East

1:11

for the most recent World Cup. Well,

1:13

I can keep my years straight. What is

1:15

going on with you? Are you okay? My man? Holy

1:18

I'm getting to be an old man. Like I know, we just moved

1:20

into a new year. But they all run together. Well,

1:23

look, I know we live in interesting times and it's

1:25

been a hell of a we'll say, the last three years or

1:27

something like that. But yeah, soo

1:30

in November December we were in Qatar,

1:32

and yes we decided to call it Qatar and

1:34

uh a wonderful success from a Fox

1:37

perspective and a broadcast perspective, but also

1:39

from a soccer perspective, one of the great

1:41

World Cups, especially when it comes to the

1:43

final, and look you you followed sports

1:45

finals can often be real left

1:47

downs, and this was anything but as a matter of fact,

1:49

there's a lot of people that believe that that's final with

1:52

France and Argentina and ultimately

1:55

Messy holding up that trophy was

1:57

the greatest final in World Cup history. So all

1:59

in all, well, but went along and off the field

2:01

and I'm back and I am safe and sound, and I can't I

2:04

couldn't be more happy to talk to you, I'm really excited. Yeah,

2:06

I think there's a strong argument to be made

2:08

that that is the greatest soccer game

2:11

potentially of all time. And I think certainly

2:13

when you consider the number of people who watched

2:16

probably the most watched soccer game

2:18

of all time, which is a good combo as well.

2:20

And so you let's start for wins and loss

2:22

as we start early. So

2:25

you you obviously came to prominence

2:28

in the nineties as soccer started to

2:30

take off in the United States. But

2:32

I'm curious when you were a kid growing up,

2:34

were you a soccer exclusive player?

2:37

Did you play other sports? When did

2:39

you start to realize, hey, I'm pretty

2:42

good at soccer and maybe focus

2:44

on it. I'm just curious how you came to become,

2:46

uh, such a lightning rod

2:49

in many ways for American soccer. Yeah.

2:51

So I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit. I grew up in

2:53

this seventies and eighties and uh, you

2:56

know, MTV and bubble

2:58

Um and Little Caesar's and all that kind

3:00

of stuff. And I grew up in Michigan.

3:03

Uh. And I know you're wiss from Michigan. It is

3:05

the law there. If she hasn't told you that you also have

3:07

to play hockey no matter what I am.

3:10

I am from a generation that played multiple

3:12

sports. I you know, I'm not gruffy

3:14

old manning it because the world has changed, because

3:16

the sports have changed with specialization. But yeah,

3:18

from a young age, I was playing all different types

3:21

of sports. I actually played more hockey growing

3:23

up than I did soccer, but eventually

3:25

I just gravitated to it. I loved

3:28

the international aspect of it. I

3:30

loved the creativity

3:32

and the way that you were given autonomy

3:35

in a way that other sports don't have

3:37

it where you know, let's be honest, when you're watching

3:39

a soccer game, once that whistle blows, the

3:42

coaches have very little to do with ultimately

3:44

what happens. And you can't say that for a lot of sports.

3:47

And so I loved that that responsibility,

3:49

Like I said, the autonomy, being able to do whatever I wanted

3:51

once that whistle blue? Did you get?

3:54

Do you think you could have been in an hl uh professional

3:57

hockey player if you had gone all in on hockey?

4:00

Oh? Absolutely? And I played at a very high level.

4:02

I was freaking awesome. I loved

4:04

it, But you know, I grew up. I grew up you

4:06

know, skating on ponds, uh and

4:08

flooding the uh you know, the the driveway

4:11

and doing all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I was

4:13

huge. I'm a huge Red Wings fan, always

4:16

have been. UM. So hockey was a

4:18

huge part of my life. And you know, the the

4:20

hockey culture in Michigan is something

4:22

to behold. And so it's obviously very

4:25

very different than what soccer was,

4:27

and I loved many many parts

4:29

of it. But like I said, I also you know,

4:32

my father's from Greece. He he was a professor, and

4:34

my mom to a writer, and you know, this

4:36

is what happens when you get a kid who comes

4:38

over from university to the States, a Greek

4:40

kid, and marries a girl from Jersey, and so this

4:42

is what you get. Um. But you

4:44

know, soccer was there, and you know I grew up also

4:46

going back and forth between Detroit and Athens,

4:48

Greece, and so I also got

4:51

that that sandlot type

4:53

of existence that we associate so

4:55

much with baseball and other sports. But in

4:57

Athens, where I was the kid, I was the red ed kan

5:00

kid. I would go down to the corner to the sand lot and

5:02

just kind of sit on the side until Eventually

5:04

a kid didn't show up in goal and say let's

5:06

throw the American goal. And then I worked my way

5:08

up, learned some swear words in Greek, and then

5:10

they let me play on the field. And you know that

5:13

that type of existence and that type of

5:16

a background and childhood

5:18

within sports really really helped,

5:20

whether it was playing hockey or whether laying soccer. And I

5:22

definitely think that playing other sports, and in particular

5:24

playing hockey, really helped my soccer.

5:27

Did it toughen you up the fact

5:29

that you play? I mean, it's interesting. I didn't know the hockey

5:32

background, but you played

5:34

a very physical style of soccer.

5:37

Do you think that that was partly connected

5:39

to having grown up playing hockey, which

5:41

obviously is super physical. Sure,

5:44

you know absolutely the the movements in

5:46

hockey, obviously, the ruggedness

5:48

and the physicality that's involved in hockey.

5:50

I I definitely used that in

5:52

the soccer that I was playing, you

5:55

know, with the understanding that there are there are rules

5:57

and things that you can and cannot do. But I looked

5:59

at my my physical attributes

6:01

as something that could help me in different

6:04

ways. And uh, you know, the

6:07

hockey players, you know, they are a

6:09

very different breed in terms of the way that

6:11

they think about the sport, the way that they think

6:13

about themselves, I guess, even the way that they think about

6:15

the world. Also, there's plenty of

6:17

hockey players that you will see actually warming

6:20

up playing soccer. And obviously the international

6:22

connections is probably the most closely

6:25

associated with soccer of the sports

6:27

out there. With the international aspect

6:30

that that started a while ago, but really

6:32

is dominant right now when it comes to the NHL

6:35

and that sport. I mean, it is a very very

6:37

international league and it's a very very

6:39

international game. Were you a defender

6:41

in UH in soccer and

6:43

in hockey or did you play

6:46

all positions? Like, at what point did you

6:48

become a defender in UH in

6:50

soccer it's kind of specializing or

6:52

was that something that UH that

6:55

was a late thing or was it something that fit

6:57

your personality? How did that end up happening?

6:59

So I played on the wing from a hockey perspective,

7:02

out there on the left wing, and I was right hand sells

7:04

on the off wing, so I could cut in and do that kind of stuff.

7:07

And even from a soccer when

7:09

I was playing soccer, I was a much more of attacking

7:11

player. And what happened is I went to Rutgers

7:14

University State University of New Jersey

7:16

over their exit nine off the turnpike because

7:18

it was the only place that I could get into. And

7:20

the coach said, listen, we're going through

7:23

a rebuilding type of years here. Have you

7:25

ever played defense? And I completely lied to him

7:27

and said, oh yeah, I played lots of defense, but I would do

7:29

anything to actually get on the field. And the rest

7:31

is history, as they say, from a defensive perspective

7:33

in soccer, but it was. It was an opportunity

7:36

that I saw. And you know the reason

7:38

why I ended up at Rutgers University.

7:40

Like I said, I was getting rejected at all these places. I

7:42

was coming from Michigan. My dad was

7:45

desperate and he called up the coach and said, hey,

7:47

listen, I got this kid a six four. He's

7:49

done some things in soccer. He's an okay

7:51

student. And the coach said, well, let me see you.

7:53

We drilled the sixteen hours out to New

7:55

Jersey. We met with him for a couple of hours.

7:57

He said, I can invite you to preseason. I can us

8:00

the agriculture school, and I was like, signed me up.

8:02

Problem. We drove sixteen hours back.

8:05

I packed and then they came back and my dad

8:07

basically slowed the car down enough to kick

8:09

my ass out Exit nine over there

8:11

in New Brunswick in New Jersey. And uh,

8:13

you know, I I fell into a really really

8:16

interesting and very very different environment

8:18

scholastically and athletically

8:21

than I had ever been exposed to. You're a smart

8:23

guy. Could you not get into Michigan or Michigan

8:25

State or they didn't have athletic programs

8:28

that focused on soccer? How did you end up

8:30

at Rutgers? You said that was the place you could get into.

8:33

What was the story there? I just got

8:35

rejected in a lot of places, and Michigan

8:37

didn't have at that point, Michigan didn't have

8:40

a varsity soccer prog progetic you

8:42

can believe it. This was the late eighties, and

8:44

um, so you know I was desperate and

8:47

that you know, you're my I have a seventeen

8:49

year old daughter right now who's going through the college

8:51

process, and it is completely You've got

8:54

a few years before that play, but it is it

8:56

is completely different than back

8:58

certainly back in the eighties when when I was

9:00

doing it, And so I just needed somebody

9:02

to say yes, it didn't really matter where.

9:05

And from a soccer perspective though,

9:07

you know, the New Jersey area, in the in the New York

9:09

metropolitan area the huge hotbed, and so

9:11

what ended up happening was I was surrounded

9:14

by much better quality and the strength

9:16

of schedule that we played put me on

9:19

a national footing and platform. So from

9:21

a soccer perspective, it was everything

9:23

that I hadn't had and really kind of

9:25

set me up to have success later on. What

9:27

was soccer like in Michigan?

9:29

You you you grew up outside of Detroit.

9:32

For people who don't know the geography there, that's where

9:34

my wife is from Oakland County. We

9:36

actually got married in Birmingham at the community

9:38

house. For people who have been to Birmingham, Michigan,

9:40

it's a fantastic place. But were

9:42

you primarily like now, soccer

9:45

is a very travel culture, right,

9:47

there's a lot of travel teams. It's very competitive

9:49

to get on that team or that team or this team.

9:52

Was that the case in Michigan at the time,

9:54

or were you primarily playing high

9:56

school? Middle school? Like? What was the process

9:58

by which soccer evolution

10:01

occurred then in the nineties in Michigan?

10:03

So I had been exposed to it, like I said, when

10:06

we were going back and forth to Greece.

10:09

But then, you know, I did everything from a very young

10:12

age that a lot of the kids still do today. I did

10:14

mom and dad coaching and orange peels

10:16

and juice boxes at half time. And then

10:19

even back then, there were some travel leagues, and yes,

10:21

I played on a travel team and we started to get

10:23

at a at a higher level. But I'd

10:25

be lying to you if I if I looked at

10:27

or played soccer with an eye to

10:29

the future. It was just something that I did. My

10:32

parents, like I said, they did not have an

10:34

athletic background, and as long as it kept me

10:36

out of trouble and it was something that I was

10:38

good at, they were cool with it. And as long as I kept up

10:40

my studies to the extent that I that I could.

10:43

So yeah, it just it was something that just

10:45

fit from a young age. But it was wild

10:47

West back then compared to what the kids

10:50

have now. And I know I found old saying that, but

10:52

it warms the cockles in my red headed American

10:54

heart too to see what this generation

10:57

has at its disposal. I I don't begrudge

10:59

them at I think it's wonderful. Makes me incredibly

11:01

proud that they don't have even close

11:04

to, you know, the problems. And like I said, that

11:06

wild less type of existence that was soccer

11:08

back then, even from a young age, in terms

11:10

of youth soccer to high school soccer

11:12

to college soccer. I did play high school

11:15

soccer, which even that in and of itself is

11:17

a talking point when it comes to sports nowadays,

11:19

as how many kids are specializing

11:21

and you know, playing club soccer and playing

11:24

a travel team and not even being allowed to play high

11:26

school soccer. But I've benefited immensely

11:29

from playing high school soccer. And I'm not just talking about

11:31

as a soccer player, but as a student

11:34

and as a person. I remember

11:36

a story, and we're talking to Alexi

11:38

Lallis, this is wins and losses. I

11:40

remember a story about Barry Larkin, who

11:43

was one of my favorite baseball players growing up.

11:45

He went to the University of Michigan undergrad

11:47

UH and I believe it's I believe

11:49

it's been publicly out there for a while, but both

11:52

shim Beeckler, who

11:54

was then the coach of Michigan had a

11:56

lot of success, would show up at

11:58

Barry Larkin's baseball games and

12:00

call him a woos because he wouldn't come

12:02

play uh football. Because Barry Larkin

12:04

was an elite athlete. I think his son later played

12:07

n B A. I mean, they got some good genes there.

12:09

You said you played hockey and then you made the

12:11

switch over to a soccer

12:14

You're a big guy six three six four, so

12:16

maybe it helped. But did you get trash

12:19

talked at all for being more interested

12:21

in soccer than uh than

12:24

uh than than playing hockey in Michigan at

12:26

the time. And I want to read this to you as part of that

12:28

because I said I was gonna do it earlier on the Clay

12:30

and Buck Show. I was reading the Babylon

12:33

b and I thought this was funny, and I bet you even

12:35

would laugh a little bit. Uh in a NHL

12:38

player says if he wanted to support

12:40

the Gays, he'd be playing soccer

12:43

again. That was that was the NHL

12:46

getting They had that controversy over

12:48

whether the guy would wear the LGBT uh

12:50

story proverrov or not. But did

12:52

you get picked on at all in the eighties

12:55

for being like, yeah, hockey's kind of this

12:57

macho sport. I love it. You say, you were

12:59

good at it, could have been a potentially an NHL player,

13:02

and yet you got drawn to soccer.

13:04

Did you have any of that Barry Larkins syndrome

13:07

where guys would be like, why are you being a woos

13:09

and choosing soccer? Yeah?

13:11

I mean, look, I lived through the age where

13:13

it was starting to transition into

13:16

a much more for lack of a better word, acceptable

13:19

type of sport for uh,

13:21

you know, for for young athletes. Because when we

13:23

were kids, Alexei and you're a little bit older

13:25

than me, but not that much, soccer was

13:27

considered a woos sport for kids

13:30

to play. Right, I played high school soccer,

13:32

and if in Tennessee, if you compare that to say,

13:35

playing high school football, like I would

13:37

have been considered a whoos for being a soccer

13:39

guy, and that was even more prominent.

13:41

I would imagine when you were playing

13:44

uh and started to make that transition into

13:46

becoming a professional soccer player. Yeah,

13:49

And so what it made what what was good

13:51

is that when you got your ass kicked by a soccer

13:53

player like myself, it was really

13:56

embarrassing if you were shooting your mouth off.

13:58

But you know I heard it all. I heard like you said,

14:00

it's through us. Is it's for it's for girls,

14:03

it's it's not for guys. It's

14:05

communist, a bunch of guys running

14:07

around in tight shorts and nobody ever scores,

14:10

and there's no physical nature to it. And

14:12

it's not you know all it's you know, it's

14:15

all of those different things. I absolutely

14:17

heard I I laugh at them, I

14:19

ignored them in you know, my size certainly

14:21

certainly helped out. And you know,

14:23

as as you know, as you can attest

14:25

to sometimes from afar, you

14:28

can have a perception of what it is and then

14:30

when you actually see it played or play

14:32

it yourself, it can change that perception.

14:35

But look when I when I look at

14:37

this generation now that grows up, they look

14:39

at soccer as anything else in terms of their

14:41

their palates that they have of

14:44

sports, whether it's to play or whether

14:46

it's to watch. So the perception of soccer

14:48

has dramatically changed in the US.

14:50

I think, you know, I think for the better. But

14:53

you know, it's still it's still not King and

14:56

in terms of history and in terms of

14:58

popularity, but it's it's a whole different

15:00

ball game, and it's a whole different sport

15:02

than it certainly was when I was growing up. Yeah,

15:05

there's no doubt. And I think that's interesting because

15:07

for people out there, depending on the age

15:09

and as they listen to us. UM.

15:12

The analogy I would make is, when

15:14

I was a kid, and obviously I was a huge sports

15:17

fan, the only international

15:19

athletes I knew were tennis

15:21

players, right. I knew Boris Becker, I

15:23

knew Ivan Lindell, Stefan Edbergh.

15:25

Like we could run through all that era of

15:27

great tennis players, um,

15:29

and you saw the Americans compete against

15:32

them. Nowadays, I would

15:34

say tennis by and large is not anywhere

15:36

near as much talked about as it would have been

15:38

in America when I was a kid growing up. But

15:40

when I take my kids to elementary

15:43

school and when I go pick him up Alexei, I

15:45

am stunned by the amount

15:47

of international soccer jerseys

15:50

I see American second, third, fourth

15:52

grade kids in the Nashville area

15:54

where I live. They all, because of

15:56

the fiefa video game, have favorite

15:59

players. They all have an opinion

16:01

on Messy versus Ronaldo.

16:03

Right in the same way that Jordan

16:06

lebron Is discussed. There's a lot of

16:08

debate about who the greatest soccer player is

16:10

of all time. It's amazing to me

16:13

in a generation, how that has changed

16:15

so significantly. I bet even

16:17

to you if you go back to when you

16:19

started playing soccer, that's

16:22

kind of staggering how much knowledge

16:24

there is internationally about the game

16:26

now embedded in our society.

16:29

Yeah, I mean it's insane. You hit hit a bunch of a bunch

16:31

of things, including, like you said, the fief of video game,

16:33

and that was a game changer in

16:36

terms of the education of

16:38

players, of teams, of leagues,

16:41

of tactics, and everybody

16:43

was playing it, and therefore everybody,

16:45

whether they realized it or not, was gaining

16:47

an appreciation and an education for

16:50

what it for what it is. The other part is,

16:52

I mean, when you when you when you want to watch soccer

16:55

in the United States, there are people that I have friends,

16:57

I have friends that are over in Europe that are jealous

16:59

of the amount of soccer that we have at

17:01

our disposal that they are able to watch on a

17:03

continual basis. And I can pull up any

17:05

game from anywhere in the world. And so you

17:08

have a generation now. When I was growing

17:10

up, we were literally trading VCR

17:13

v VHS tapes from

17:16

you know that we're bootlegged from games

17:19

and programs from over in Europe

17:21

in order to get it, or we were going to the local

17:23

soccer store to pick up what was

17:25

the bible for US American soccer people,

17:27

which is a magazine called Soccer

17:29

America, and that's where we got our information.

17:32

And so it is completely

17:34

changed. And like you said, this generation right

17:36

now doesn't see soccer any differently

17:39

than other sports out there, either

17:41

in terms of their fandom or in terms

17:43

of playing it. Okay, you mentioned

17:46

being a redheaded kid in Greece, uh,

17:48

sitting on the sideline watching all those

17:50

kids play, um, and I

17:52

want to kind of go back to that time and and build

17:55

on it a little bit. So your family,

17:57

your dad, I think you said was was Greek

18:00

and raises you here. What

18:02

are the chances you play soccer if

18:05

your dad is not Greek? If

18:07

you don't have that that interaction

18:10

and that experience in your life

18:12

of being over there in Europe, in

18:14

Greece, sitting on the sideline watching those

18:16

kids play in the dirt, how much do you think that

18:18

impacted your decision to embrace

18:21

soccer as the sport that you would pursue at

18:23

the highest level. I definitely

18:25

think it impacted me, but it was

18:27

it was a function of being

18:30

a kid. Obviously, the culture over there

18:32

in Greece is rooted in soccer, and

18:34

it was a function of being lonely

18:36

and trying to make friends, and this was

18:39

the avenue that you used over there. And I

18:41

still so, yes, yes, absolutely

18:43

that happened. But I'm also still from

18:45

a time where the advent of

18:48

you soccer and a y s O and all these different

18:50

leagues and the realization from a lot of,

18:53

let's be honest, a lot of parents and a lot

18:55

of schools and a lot of communities that

18:57

this was a way to get people active

18:59

that didn't cost as much as other sports.

19:02

You didn't have to be big to play it. And

19:04

so I think that really lent itself

19:08

to what you know, to what was going

19:10

on in a consistent basis

19:12

and why I gravitated to it.

19:15

But yeah, I mean if my father wasn't Greek, I still

19:17

think that I would have been involved in soccer and

19:19

been exposed to soccer. But having

19:21

that, you know, that organic

19:24

type of experience from a very young age,

19:26

absolutely that that impacted me. I'm

19:29

curious what you would say about this. I've

19:32

argued this for a while, and you obviously

19:34

would be an expert on this. So I think a lot of people

19:36

will enjoy it basketball

19:39

when it used to be a huge

19:41

insult to say to someone, Oh,

19:44

he plays like a Euro. If

19:46

you're a basketball fan and you listen to

19:48

me, you'll remember it. It used to be an insult.

19:50

Oh he's a big man, but he doesn't want to bang

19:52

inside. He wants to step outside and

19:54

take threes. Then what

19:57

ended up happening was the European

19:59

style of basketball conquered

20:01

in America because America, we were teaching

20:03

basketball like, hey, it's

20:05

football, right, Like you're a defensive end,

20:08

you do this, you're a quarterback, you have

20:10

this role. And what became

20:13

the way that basketball was taught was soccer

20:15

like in that you played a one

20:18

to five right a point guard to a center,

20:20

but you had to be able to handle the ball, and

20:22

you had to be able to play every

20:24

single position. And it's a much more beautiful

20:27

style of basketball and much less

20:29

regimented. And I think Americans

20:31

have come to embrace actually the

20:33

way that Euros play basketball. But

20:36

the European style of basketball is

20:38

just an outgrowth of the way that Euros

20:41

played soccer. Do you see

20:43

that connection. Would you buy into that thesis

20:45

in terms of the evolution of the sport?

20:48

Yeah, I mean the way that and even

20:50

just in terms of my my lifetime.

20:53

The way the game is played I'm

20:55

talking about soccer right now

20:57

is fundamentally different than

21:00

anything that I grew up playing.

21:02

You know, to your point about um, you

21:04

know basketball, if you be

21:07

the interesting thing there, the irony is that

21:09

it was almost a return to what basketball

21:12

once was if you ever watched Hoosiers or something

21:14

like that, you know, the emphasis on

21:16

passing the ball, the emphasis on being able

21:18

to shoot the ball that we've kind of went

21:20

away with, and understandably so, because

21:23

dunking and show time and all that kind of stuff, that's

21:25

what people wanted to see. But the problem

21:28

was that no matter what, no matter

21:30

what, it's successful, somebody will come up with

21:32

something that is able to take it down.

21:34

And I think, very very quickly from a basketball perspective,

21:37

they said, oh, fine, this guy can't dunk or this

21:39

guy doesn't do the showtime stuff, but it will step

21:41

back even though he's a big man and be

21:43

able to drain threes. And that is points

21:45

on the board, and that can change a game,

21:47

and that can keep jobs, and that can win championships,

21:50

and so that becomes valuable in

21:52

the game today from a soccer perspective. Right

21:54

now, possession of the ball

21:56

and the ability for individuals to keep

21:58

that ball is huge, and that comes down

22:01

to individual technique that has started

22:03

at a very very young age. Certainly,

22:05

Europe has a long history

22:07

of recognizing that it's all fine and well

22:10

to be, you know, a huge star and to score a bunch

22:12

of goals and stuff like that. But the fundamentals, and that

22:14

applies to any sport. The fundamentals

22:16

in life are essential and

22:18

they will always be essential. They are ever

22:20

green, regardless of what style are you going

22:22

to play. If you don't have the fundamentals,

22:25

you're already lost. Because you have that, you

22:27

know that base that is not there. So

22:30

this leads into the other part. I was gonna get

22:32

you to break down the number. I'm sure

22:35

you see it all the time. The number

22:37

one criticism that I see

22:39

of soccer in the United States

22:42

every four years as it cycles

22:44

up and everybody's paying a lot of attention that

22:47

sports fans make is they say,

22:49

oh, the reason the United States doesn't

22:51

dominate is because our

22:54

best athletes don't play soccer.

22:56

My argument is you're missing

22:59

the boat and curious how you would analyze

23:01

this. Our athletes who

23:03

play now soccer for the US

23:06

are wildly talented, but if

23:08

you just looked at raw athleticism,

23:11

it isn't what is the focus here in soccer.

23:13

Because what they do so well

23:15

with all these academies in Europe and everything

23:18

else is they find kids who are

23:20

ten, eleven, twelve years old, they

23:22

put them into those academies and they

23:24

have had hundreds of thousands

23:26

of touches and technique,

23:29

experience and

23:31

talent that most American

23:33

players do not get in our

23:35

country. And what's fascinating about it

23:37

to me is we have this idea of

23:39

Europe as like socialist and not very

23:42

capitalistic necessarily, which isn't

23:44

always true, right, But they

23:46

are incredibly incredibly

23:50

competitive and you know, will

23:52

get their best talent and develop

23:55

it in a way that doesn't necessarily

23:57

happen in the United States. So it's not raw

23:59

at letticism that the United

24:01

States is missing, it's the amount

24:04

of technique and talent and repetitions

24:07

that the Euros and other places

24:09

have gotten their best talent through.

24:12

How would you assess that that. I'm sure

24:14

you hear that conversation all the time. Oh,

24:16

if we put Lebron and if we put you

24:18

know whoever the best athletes are in the world

24:20

into our soccer academies in the US,

24:23

we would win championships. I don't

24:25

buy that necessarily. I think it's about the repetition.

24:29

Yeah, I mean so, first off, just from a pure numbers

24:31

perspective, I know how much you love Dad. If

24:33

you were to put you, if you put everybody

24:35

that played a sport and just had

24:38

them playing soccer, the chances are are

24:40

you had your best that you would have more better

24:43

players out there, and certainly more competition

24:45

because more players will be playing against

24:47

each other. That's that's undoubted.

24:49

When it comes to someone like Lebron James. For

24:51

example, how or how how talks Lebron

24:54

James six eight? Okay,

24:56

so he's six eight. There are no six eight

24:58

players that are dominated eating soccer. So just

25:01

know that when we say our best athletes,

25:04

you have to qualify that with an understanding,

25:06

in an agreement about what an athlete actually

25:08

is. If I if you didn't know who

25:11

Leo Messi was and you saw him

25:13

walking down the streets there in Nashville. You

25:15

wouldn't have no idea that there goes arguably

25:18

the greatest soccer player ever to play

25:20

the game, because textually he just looks

25:22

like a guy that's walking down to his I don't know

25:24

his insurance agency. Messi is five eight,

25:27

right, is he five ft eight? Basically for people

25:29

out there who may not know his size and stature,

25:31

you would never know that Messi was the greatest

25:33

soccer player in the world. Whereas if you see

25:35

Lebron James, he's six ft eight. He stands

25:37

out right shock ain't hiding anywhere. So

25:40

soccer players like hockey players. I always

25:43

say, Alexie, I'm sure you'll appreciate this. Like

25:45

I used to see all the Nashville Predators out

25:47

back in the day, the hockey

25:49

team. A lot of them weren't very well known

25:52

because hockey wasn't the biggest sport in Nashville,

25:55

and so they'd be having beers hanging out at the bar,

25:58

and every now and then I would see a guy who didn't

26:00

know who they were and like bump into

26:02

him, and you know, I would be like,

26:04

oh my god, this guy is about to get utterly

26:06

wrecked. Because he had no idea. He had

26:08

just bumped into a hockey player who

26:11

fought sometimes for a living,

26:13

because they're relatively average

26:15

sized dudes, right, and they don't look like that

26:18

much different than the regular guy would have

26:20

in the bar. Yep. And

26:22

and also, you know, when you're talking about

26:24

the development of American soccer

26:27

players, there there is a stunt thing

26:29

that happens, and it's and it started to dissipate

26:31

over the years because there are developmental

26:33

academies and obviously the professional

26:36

game has increased and there are many more

26:38

pathways and opportunities out there. But there

26:40

comes a point where players say,

26:42

either I don't want to play anymore because

26:44

I don't see any future. And when we say future,

26:47

usually it is tied to you know, the

26:49

next level, or going pro or making a lot of money,

26:51

or you know, dating somebody, whatever it ends up

26:53

being. But you know, that's still aspirational,

26:55

even though we recognize that even in all

26:58

sports, it's a very minute amount

27:00

of people that are actually able to do that. But

27:03

not having that for so many decades

27:05

that was detrimental to the sport. And it started

27:07

to change now because they can see opportunities

27:10

even if it's just stars in their eyes that

27:12

is an incredible driving force. But I

27:14

will say this, as we continue to

27:17

grow, I think there's a real kind of

27:19

moral question that we have to answer,

27:21

and that is what is our responsibility

27:24

to these young athletes that we are specializing,

27:27

that we are at times having them by pass

27:29

school for what is our responsibility?

27:32

Because we focus so much on that ninety minutes

27:34

the soccer game is ninety minutes, sometimes

27:36

we forget about the other twenty two and a half hours.

27:38

And I would submit to you that we're

27:40

not just creating better in this case, we're talking about soccer,

27:43

better soccer players, but we're hopefully

27:45

we're creating better young men and women that are

27:47

going to lead what I feel is the greatest country in the world.

27:49

And advocating that responsibility

27:52

that would that would pain me, and that would

27:54

hurt me, and I think ultimately you would

27:56

be letting yourself down. You'll be letting your country

27:58

down, You'll be letting the play years down and these these

28:01

people down, and you'll be letting the sport

28:03

down that leads in Alexei

28:06

Well, I think that's really well said because I argue

28:08

with my kids all the time and I think this is true for

28:10

anybody out there who's a dad, grandpa, or

28:12

if you're a kid out there listening to this discussion

28:15

right now, You've got to make sure you use

28:17

the ball, that the ball doesn't use

28:19

you right. And and that's a big part

28:21

of anybody, no matter what sport

28:23

you're pursuing, no matter what your talent level

28:26

might be. And it brings me back to you going

28:28

to Rutgers. Was that a for

28:31

you when you went there for college? Was

28:33

that a culture shock to you? I know you traveled

28:35

back and forth to Europe some, but you're

28:37

going from Michigan. Now you're suddenly

28:40

at Rutgers basically kind of in the

28:42

outskirts of the New York City, you

28:44

know environment, that could be a culture shock.

28:47

Was it for you? Or did you immediately

28:49

thrive when you got to college, not only in athletics

28:51

but in the classroom. So you know,

28:53

I grew up, like I said, in the suburbs of Detroit,

28:56

and I went to a small prep school there

28:58

and I suddenly I myself in

29:01

the you know, the State School of New Jersey

29:04

thirties thousand uh kids,

29:06

like you said, right outside of New York, and

29:09

I'm thrown into this, you know, this this

29:12

very very different environment. I

29:14

will tell you that what I did, and maybe this is

29:16

just a coping mechanism, is I

29:18

didn't speak to anybody for about the first

29:21

month that I was on campus. Uh, And I

29:23

scared the crap out of a lot of people off

29:25

the field. But on the field that actually worked out

29:27

okay, because I was playing with a bunch

29:29

of kids from New York and New Jersey

29:32

and basically they looked at Michigan as

29:34

it might have been for them, as the other side

29:36

of the moon. So I was as alien and

29:38

foreign as you could possibly be coming

29:40

from Michigan. And that I wasn't saying

29:42

a word. It just scared the crap out

29:44

of them. And that actually benefited me in

29:46

terms of establishing a starting position.

29:49

But you know, it was just it was I

29:51

mean, New Jersey in and of itself is a

29:53

trip and and takes a little

29:56

getting used to. But I consider myself

29:58

and adopted New Jersey and out and

30:00

uh, you know, I had a wonderful time. And like I said,

30:02

it changed everything for me in terms of

30:04

the soccer and you know, the the education

30:07

and the different people that I was meeting. Uh,

30:09

it was. It was good. I'm it was a

30:11

little bit daunting and scary to

30:14

begin with, but you know, you adapt and

30:16

kids adapt, and you know it's either

30:18

sink or swim, and like you know, I'm not a great

30:20

swimmer, but I figured it out eventually. Okay,

30:23

So the World Cup is

30:25

in the United States, and I

30:28

was playing soccer in high school at the time

30:31

that it was here. It was a big

30:33

story, but I feel like it kind of snuck

30:35

up on people a little bit. Right

30:38

When did you start to think in

30:40

your head, Hey,

30:43

maybe I could be on this US team?

30:46

Was there a lot of conversation about ninety

30:48

four? We're talking right now about

30:51

this in three I got the year

30:53

right this time. It's not very far until

30:55

twenty six, which there will be the

30:57

World Cup basically in the United States. I

30:59

know it all so be in Canada and in Mexico,

31:02

but there's a tremendous amount of talk about

31:04

it and has been for many years.

31:07

Was that the case going into ninety

31:09

four? Uh, I don't recall.

31:11

I was young. What kind of conversations

31:14

were there about soccer? Then? When

31:16

did the US even have the ninety four

31:18

World Cup awarded? I

31:21

don't know. The backstory there. Yeah.

31:23

So I mean, look, Clay, the reason I'm talking to you

31:26

today on this show is because

31:28

of the World Cup. And for those

31:30

that don't remember or weren't around, it

31:32

was the first time that the US ever hosted

31:34

the World Cup. And it was significant

31:37

because the US, like we've been talking

31:39

about, you know, it was not and maybe

31:41

you even argue today it's not necessarily

31:43

certainly not relative to other countries and cultures

31:45

a soccer country, and so this was taking

31:48

it to a different land and

31:50

obviously taking it to a different uh market,

31:53

The soccer scene even back in was

31:56

very, very different, and uh,

31:58

this was an opportun tunity that I think

32:01

everybody recognized to kind of plant a

32:03

flag. And I still to this day meet

32:05

people that were watching

32:07

or at games in the World

32:10

Cup that said that, tell me, that's when

32:12

everything changed for me. That's when I fell in

32:14

love with the game, or that's when I knew

32:16

that this game had a future if you were already

32:18

in love with the game. And I'll just tell you the story

32:20

to give you, you know, some perspective. A couple of weeks

32:23

before the World Cup in I got

32:25

on airplane with the rest of

32:27

my world Cup team. We were getting ready for the

32:29

World Cup. I sat in my middle seat

32:31

as we did as we traveled back then, back

32:33

in Economy, I sat down next to an

32:35

older woman. We struck up a conversation. She

32:38

said, what do you do? I said, well, I play soccer

32:40

and she said, well, what's your job. I said, well,

32:42

I play soccer And she said what

32:44

do you What do you do for money? And I

32:47

said, well, I play soccer. And

32:49

two weeks later I'm in front of a

32:51

billion people playing in the World Cup.

32:54

And that's just to give you an idea of,

32:56

you know, the mindset and the landscape

32:58

back then. Now it is. It's a saying goes,

33:00

you come a long way, baby, and we have on

33:03

and off the field. But that was a seminal

33:05

moment, as was the Women's

33:08

World Cup. We'll remember Brandy Chastain and

33:10

how that was important for the women's

33:12

game and for the game in general. And that's

33:14

why when the World Cup

33:16

is coming back to the US, uh,

33:18

it's just huge because it's coming back to a

33:20

country and a culture that is a soccer

33:23

country. We are a soccer country. We

33:25

don't need to apologize for anything.

33:27

As a matter of fact, we need to lean into it.

33:29

We're gonna do it in an American way, and

33:31

that's a good thing. That's not anything to be

33:34

embarrassed about. And I'm

33:36

telling you right now, play it's gonna be bigger

33:38

than anything is ever that anybody has ever

33:40

seen on the field and off the field. It's

33:42

gonna make more money for FIFA and everybody

33:44

that's involved than's ever been made. And I think

33:47

it's gonna be a real moment and

33:49

yet another seminal moment. And I'll be really

33:51

really proud when I'll be fifty six years old

33:53

and it's coming back to our shows. Okay,

33:55

So I want to ask a couple of questions

33:58

about that, or

34:01

you would have made what in

34:03

terms of rough income off

34:06

the field? On the field, what is a start?

34:08

What is a soccer player on the US

34:10

men's team making in nineteen

34:13

four? Like, what would the range have been? Oh,

34:16

I was probably making a couple of thousand dollars a month

34:19

and they paid for uh

34:21

an apartment and you know, we trained

34:23

actually two years leading

34:25

up to the World Cup to be ready for the World

34:28

Cup. But what it did do was give

34:30

me a platform and I went from

34:32

there and then went over to Europe and played in

34:34

Italy, which at the time was the you know, the biggest

34:37

and most expensive league in the world.

34:39

And obviously my uh, you know, my salary

34:42

was raised significantly then.

34:44

But that's the type. You know. I lived the power

34:46

of what a World Cup can do to an individual,

34:49

and it changed my life forever. I milked

34:51

it for all it was worth, both on and off

34:53

the field. I remember, I remember some

34:55

of it. I burned it both then for many

34:58

many years. Because of that, you

35:00

know, I knew that this was the

35:02

moment, that this was our moment, this

35:04

was my moment, and like I said, you need

35:06

to be able to recognize that opportunity and

35:08

grab it with both hands, don't let anybody

35:10

take it away from you, and use it and

35:13

milk it for all it's worth. So you

35:15

would have been making prior to

35:17

the World Cup less than

35:19

fifty k a year to play soccer.

35:21

That's probably fair, and almost

35:24

everybody on the US men's team would

35:26

have similarly been making that

35:28

that kind of sense to kind of put it into context

35:31

for people out there, um, you know, compared

35:33

to Christian Pulistic who might be making twenty million

35:35

dollars a year now, I don't know what his exact

35:37

salary is, probably not far off from twenty million

35:40

a year with all his endorsements and everything

35:42

else. Christian Pulistic is

35:45

you know, by himself making like scores

35:47

of magnitude more, which is an

35:49

interesting marker in the growth of the game itself.

35:52

Then the entire US men's soccer

35:54

team would have been making For instance, in yeah,

35:58

we weren't making a lot of money. And there were some play airs

36:00

that were already playing in Europe that obviously we're

36:02

playing that they were getting getting more money.

36:04

But for those of us, you know, like myself

36:06

and if you remember Kobe Jones and Tony

36:09

Nola and these types of these types of

36:11

players. Now keep in mind, the United States

36:13

men's national team had actually played in the nineteen

36:15

ninety World Cup. I was a fan.

36:18

I was bumming around Europe with a couple of my high school

36:20

buddies, getting drunk and going to the

36:22

World Cup games, painting my face, never

36:25

imagining that four years later I would

36:27

be representing my country in the World

36:29

Cup. That's how quickly things changed for

36:31

me on the field and obviously off the field

36:33

with what was going on. But the money didn't come

36:35

later, and the and the money only came because

36:38

of the World Cup. And to your point, you know, I

36:40

had to star in a World Cup

36:42

to be given the opportunity to go and

36:44

play in Europe and go and make a living

36:47

at one of the great leagues in the world. Over in Italy.

36:49

There are players today that are growing up that

36:52

don't even play a single game in Major League

36:54

Soccer and already have people

36:56

from Europe scouting them, bringing them

36:58

over, paying them a lot of money. And again I don't

37:01

say that. I say that as a form

37:03

of respect and progress and incredible

37:06

pride that's going on right now, but that

37:08

all these pathways exist now, that

37:11

MLS exists, right now that MWSL

37:13

for the women exist, All of those things

37:16

came out and started in What

37:19

was it like to make the team? How

37:21

did you make the team in and

37:23

how would it compare, say to today's

37:25

tryouts and US men's team

37:28

uh process, I have no idea, but

37:30

I imagine it's quite a bit different. So

37:32

I can tell you exactly where I was. So we trained

37:35

down in uh, well, you know a lot about the coast

37:37

out here, so a little further down from the coast, I'm here

37:39

in Los Angeles in Manhattan Beach. But wait,

37:42

you know, further down the coast there's a place called Laguna

37:44

Beach. You might have heard of it. So we used to train

37:47

down in Mission Viego, California. That's

37:49

where our training center was, and it

37:51

was basically this what but nowadays

37:54

would be like a reality show survivor

37:56

type of thing where they just kept for two years

37:58

prior to the World Cup. They us kept bringing

38:00

people in and you would start out

38:03

at the Holiday Inn on off the

38:05

of the five up a La Paz Road there and

38:07

they would give you a room, a tryout

38:09

for the week, and some meal vouchers

38:11

and if you made it, you continued on to the next

38:13

week and if you can do not enough weeks, they might

38:16

sign you and give you a month to month type

38:18

of contract. So at the end of this two

38:20

year trial and reality show, you

38:22

were just hoping that ultimately you were named to

38:24

the to the list of twenty two players.

38:27

We were in the parking lot and the final

38:29

cuts were going to be made. Um

38:31

I vividly remember no news

38:34

is good news, and so if they don't want to talk to you,

38:36

get in your car. Because we were at the beach

38:39

and we had just gone for a beach run as

38:41

a team, and you had to get in your

38:43

car and go home, and if they didn't want to talk to you, that

38:45

was good. I remember seeing players in that parking

38:47

lot get cut and not realize

38:50

their dream of going to a World Cup. Now

38:52

you know as well as I do. You've you've dealt with professional

38:55

players. We can be incredibly ruthless,

38:57

and we can compartmentalize. It doesn't

38:59

mean we don't have up the they or empathy, but the

39:01

reality is all I cared about in

39:03

that moment was myself. My roommate

39:05

was one of the last cuts. How about going back

39:07

to that apartment and happened to having a deal with

39:10

that. But you know what all I cared about was

39:12

being on that team because that was where

39:14

the opportunity. It was how many

39:16

guys got cut? Roughly in the

39:18

parking lot? Would it have been ten twenty? Like how

39:20

many

39:21

many? Three

39:23

or four? Because we have been going through the years and so you

39:25

could not even make it through a week. They might say, listen, it's

39:27

great, but you are getting moved on. And so it

39:29

was just you know, next meerson up and people

39:32

came through, some really really good players came through and

39:34

it's you know, it's like a tryout or anything. It's

39:36

it's it's down to you know, a subjective

39:39

type of assessment from a human

39:42

being. And the coach said, I like this guy. I

39:44

don't like this guy. And eventually either you were

39:46

left standing at the end of it all or you weren't.

39:49

You're out in Manhattan Beach. You just mentioned a

39:51

great place if you haven't been out to the l A

39:53

area. Um. Another friend

39:55

of ours, Matt Winer, lives in Manhattan Beach,

39:57

um, and he's got to be a good friend. Mind.

40:00

And I'm fascinated by the fact that

40:02

Liner came through being

40:05

a kids celebrity basically, right,

40:07

nineteen or twenty year old superstar kid who

40:09

played for USC And he's

40:11

a totally normal dude now right, like you

40:13

would enjoy hanging out chatting with him. Everybody

40:16

who's listening to us right now, I think we'd like having a

40:18

beer with him. I think you're yeah,

40:21

and I think you're the same way. But

40:23

I'm curious for you. You mentioned

40:26

the World Cup. You basically

40:28

became super famous

40:30

overnight, right. You had

40:32

been grinding away trying to make

40:34

the team as you just said, make it through the parking

40:36

lot there. Uh, make the team.

40:39

What was it like? There's this great story,

40:41

I'm sure you've heard it where all of

40:43

the friends cast go out to dinner

40:45

in Las Vegas and the producer

40:48

or creator of that series is like,

40:50

this is the last time that you will all be

40:53

able to eat together as normal

40:55

humans for the rest of your life,

40:57

because that show comes on overnight.

41:00

Instantaneously, all six of them

41:02

become massive superstars. Did

41:04

you have a moment like that in your life

41:06

where you're like, nobody knows who I am,

41:09

and then the World Cup starts

41:12

and suddenly it's like everybody

41:14

on the planet knows who you are. And

41:16

if so, what was that like? Oh?

41:18

Wow? So if I ever write a book, I probably

41:21

you know, the preface will be uh setting

41:23

a scene of after

41:25

the last game that we played as a US

41:28

in that ninety four World Cup. We lost

41:30

to Brazil, who eventually went on to win the World Cup,

41:32

and there was an after party and I'll

41:34

never forget in the middle of the night, sitting

41:37

at a bar and on one side of me, uh,

41:40

you know his large rule ric uh you

41:42

know, uh from from Metallica

41:45

and just doing shots of tequila

41:47

and Yagelmeister with with

41:50

the guys from from Metallica and looking

41:52

around going what the hell is going

41:54

on? You know this is back when they were drinking and this is

41:56

a long time ago and everything. But you

41:58

know, again, my life confundamentally

42:01

changed overnight because of the power

42:03

of the World Cup. Now, I also looked

42:06

a certain way, and I cultivated an

42:08

image. You know, nowadays the kids call it brands,

42:10

but you know, I was thinking about my brand

42:13

well before. You know, I grew up. You know, I've

42:15

done a lot of music, and I grew up, you know, watching

42:17

the MTV generation and everything like that,

42:19

so I knew that. You know, I've always considered

42:21

myself a performer, uh and an entertainer,

42:23

and that's not a pejorative actually, you know, you

42:27

you you trained for what for your

42:29

sport, right, which is the same thing as rehearsing.

42:31

You go on a field, which is the same thing as the stage.

42:33

You're in front of an audience, which is the same thing

42:36

as a crowd. You wear a uniform,

42:38

which is the same thing as a costume.

42:40

And I have always believed that

42:42

performing and performance is

42:44

a huge part of athletics, and I

42:46

love that I gravitated to that, and so the

42:49

way that I looked, you know, it resonated,

42:51

and you know, people knew who

42:53

I was, and I had a lot of you know, huge red hair, a

42:55

big red goatee and all that kind of stuff, and it was

42:57

very comfortable for me. But it was

43:00

you know, it was by design, and it was

43:02

something that you know, like cultivated over

43:04

over that time and continued and used

43:07

to my advantage both on and off the

43:09

field. But yeah, it was. It was nuts and

43:11

it was wonderful, and I you

43:13

know, they were wonderful times. I've since you

43:15

know, grown and gone into different

43:17

things, and obviously I wish I could still grow

43:19

that hair, but that's you know, that's not gonna happen

43:22

anytime soon. But man, oh man

43:24

Clay, it was. It was a wonderful time

43:26

to to be alive and then go through

43:28

that craziness. It's hard to

43:31

you know, equate it with anything, but

43:34

you know, I, like I said, I didn't find

43:36

it problematic in anywhere

43:38

way, safe or form. And the thing that

43:40

I find the thing that I find

43:42

so interesting about it is most

43:45

people become famous over time,

43:47

right, so you can adjust to the

43:50

way that your life might change. There

43:52

are relatively few people who become

43:55

instantly very very famous. And to

43:57

your point, your six ft four, you've got

43:59

to big red goatee. Uh, you're

44:02

very flamboyant and noticeable,

44:04

uh you know, on the field. But also

44:06

you're big enough. You were talking about Messi earlier.

44:09

When you're five ft eight, you don't really get

44:11

noticed. Six ft four guys in general

44:13

kind of get noticed, right, And so

44:16

what would you tell yourself? Because we talked

44:18

wins and losses, I'm sure there's some things you did and

44:20

you're like, that was the dumbest thing I could have ever done.

44:22

You had to learn it. What do you wish

44:24

you could have told yourself, if anything,

44:27

right before that World Cup that you

44:29

were gonna learn over that ensuing

44:31

seven six eight years as

44:34

you became more and more of a prominent

44:36

public figure. I

44:39

mean, I think that I had a pretty

44:41

good head on my shoulders. I mean I made mistakes

44:43

on and off the field, just like everybody else, and I

44:45

have regrets, not

44:47

not a lot of them, but I certainly do. I mean, look,

44:50

Clay, let's be on if the worst thing in your

44:52

life. If somebody wants to take a picture

44:54

with you or tell you how great you played,

44:57

or uh, you know, to get an autograph,

44:59

then you live a charmed life. And if you're

45:01

an asshole, all right, that can't deal

45:03

with that, then I can't relate

45:06

to you, okay. And I'm not saying that that we don't

45:08

have bad days, or or that I probably

45:10

at some point wasn't, you know, as accommodating

45:13

as a as I should have been. But I've always

45:15

tried to remind myself even even

45:17

when that happened. And in that moment, I'm

45:19

not the smartest guy, but at least in that moment, I was smart

45:22

enough to know that if

45:24

if this is if this is your life

45:27

changing, okay, and this

45:29

is ten fifteen thirty

45:31

seconds that this person is going to spend

45:33

with you, and it might not be fair, but that's what

45:35

they're gonna judge you on for the rest of your life.

45:39

I want to make it good. I want to make it positive,

45:41

you know. And it's not that I have to go around chasing

45:44

people to make sure that they loved me.

45:46

But again, it's just a small little

45:49

picture and moment in their life, and

45:51

I want to make sure that that happens. And so I

45:53

would just reiterate and remind myself

45:55

from a young age never ever lose

45:57

that. And I like to say that that I haven't.

45:59

But I went on and you know, I did things on and off

46:01

the field that you know didn't work out

46:04

or you know that I failed, or that I would consider

46:07

you know, a loss, and made mistakes

46:09

going forward, I try to limit them. I tell

46:11

my kids all the time. I you know, I don't I don't

46:13

mind that you make mistakes. I just don't want you to

46:15

make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

46:17

And so far, so good. Was

46:20

there anybody you met during that time you mentioned

46:22

doing shots with Metallica, but which is pretty

46:24

awesome. Was there anybody you met and you were

46:26

like, I can't believe that you know who

46:28

I am?

46:31

Um, let's see. Uh. I

46:33

remember sitting outside of

46:35

UM about to do Letterman and

46:37

Bill Murray came up and sat down and say,

46:39

hey, you know, he started to tooth the ship about it, and I was like,

46:41

this is gonna be filmed. This has gotta be you

46:43

know, they don't have candid camera anymore. But yeah,

46:45

that was that was a little weird, even you know,

46:47

when I was talking about you know, the shots of Metallica,

46:50

there was there were celebrities all over the

46:52

place. Robin Williams came in um,

46:54

but it always weird, uh, you

46:57

know, for for those that don't know, the ninety four World

46:59

Cup was there was sult of a lot of lobbying

47:02

and uh, you know, just a lot of effort

47:04

on a lot of people's parts, including Henry Kissinger.

47:07

And so before we played our first game,

47:09

which by the way, was in the Silver Dome Rest

47:11

in Peace in Pontiac, Michigan, ten

47:14

minutes away from where I grew up, indoors

47:16

in that dome there, Henry Kissinger

47:19

came around and shook our hand in

47:21

the locker room before we went out there, and I just

47:23

was like, wow, this is this

47:25

is amazing, you know, and I'm you know, I'm a

47:27

love a lover of American history and history

47:29

and this, you know, this was this iconic person who

47:32

meant so much to the world and obviously

47:34

to our country, but and also

47:36

from a soccer perspective what he meant, so

47:38

that was, you know, that was mind blowing type

47:40

of stuff. And it and never and it just never stopped.

47:43

You I never see this to amaze me, how many

47:45

people that you wouldn't sink are into

47:47

the game, are into it and the knowledge

47:49

that they have and they come up and you know, I'm just

47:51

this star struck as anyone. So

47:53

we're talking to Alexi Lawless. This is wins and

47:56

losses. I am Clay Travis. Appreciate

47:58

everybody out there listening. Um,

48:00

Alexei, when you look you

48:02

step off the field in you

48:05

guys have just lost to Brazil, who goes on,

48:08

as you said, to win the World Cup

48:10

that year. If I could have

48:12

immediately transported you now all

48:14

the way up to three, has

48:17

soccer evolved and grown

48:20

in a way that you would have thought that it

48:22

would have over you know, that's

48:24

almost thirty years now, as

48:27

we get ready for six, what

48:29

do you think would have surprised you about

48:31

where we are sitting here right now in three?

48:34

What do you think might have disappointed you? How

48:36

would you analyze that path

48:38

in terms of the impact of soccer

48:40

in the United States and what you

48:42

guys playing in ninety four did

48:45

to help seed the area

48:47

and the ground basically that we're standing on

48:49

today. Yeah, I don't

48:52

think that I would recognize my

48:55

country relative to soccer. Uh.

48:57

And that's a that's a in a good way.

49:00

I think I would be blown

49:02

away. Uh. And I can tell you while

49:05

we had ambition and aspirations

49:08

for things to change and for revolution

49:10

and growth and explosion, I don't

49:12

think any of us at that point envisioned

49:15

what we look like in three

49:18

right now. And look, I know we kick

49:20

ourselves for what we aren't both

49:22

on and off the soccer field. Uh,

49:24

But the reality is we also have to take a step back

49:26

and pat ourselves on the back for how far we

49:29

have come. It is night and day, Clay, what

49:31

the what the game looks like now? And

49:33

we're America. So we want it all and

49:35

we want to win everything, and we want to be

49:37

the best. And I get that

49:39

that's what makes us great, and that's ultimately

49:42

what has made us gained so

49:44

much in such a relatively short period

49:46

time. If you look at, for example, you

49:48

know, Major League Soccer, Okay, and what

49:50

they have done over the last thirty years,

49:53

it's unprecedented. If you look at soccer

49:55

in the United States just in terms of

49:57

the growth, unprecedented when you put up against

50:00

other leagues, other sports, other countries.

50:02

Now, there's still plenty to do, and so

50:05

you know, you look at the infrastructure, the

50:07

soccer stadiums that have come online, the billionaires

50:10

that are invested in the game, the men's and

50:12

the women's game, the players that we that we

50:14

are producing, the broadcast that

50:16

we that we do, all of those different

50:19

things. It makes me feel incredibly proud

50:21

and excredibly excited for the future because if you

50:23

extrapolate it out and say, all right, this

50:25

is what we've done in the last thirty years, who knows

50:27

where we could be in the next thirty years, Which

50:30

leads to a question you kind of hinted at it. The

50:32

women have won World Cups, a lot

50:34

of people look around and say, the

50:36

next step, obviously is to advance

50:39

to the you know, the semifinals, right where the

50:41

US has not been in the modern era. Do

50:44

you think that the United States in your

50:46

lifetime or in the lifetime of

50:48

people who are listening to this interview right

50:50

now, will win a World Cup? Well,

50:55

if you're if they're really old listening to it, it could

50:57

be some problems. But I do think it, and

51:00

you're a lifetime let's presume you've got forty

51:02

years left. Yes, absolutely,

51:05

and thank you for giving me forty years. I love it. I will

51:07

take it right now sign on the dotted line. Yeah,

51:10

um yeah, I think I absolutely

51:12

believe. Okay, so everything

51:14

is impossible and so until somebody actually

51:16

doesn't. And I know when we do, when

51:19

we do World Cups, people

51:21

ask me this question all the time. Can we win it? Can we win it?

51:23

Yeah? Absolutely can win it. It's it's seven games.

51:25

You don't even have to win all seven all seven games.

51:28

That doesn't matter what your whether your Brazili,

51:30

United States. You need a little bit of luck. You need

51:32

the soccer gods smiling on on you to

51:34

a certain extent at different times, and things

51:37

can happen. Is huge.

51:39

Obviously hosting it, I think that that will have an

51:41

incredible draw and power for this. What should

51:43

the goal Sorry to cut you off, but what should the goal

51:46

in Oh,

51:48

to win the World Cup? That's the goal.

51:51

Absolutely, yeah.

51:53

And you think the US would

51:56

be good enough to be able to win

51:58

the World Cup because you everything's probability,

52:01

right, and you're you're you're talking about that in the

52:03

larger context, everybody out there who's a sports

52:05

fan understands that. You know, it's

52:08

hard to win the Super Bowl, it's hard to win the n C Double

52:10

a tournament. There's lots of people trying to do it. We

52:12

know will be there in uh.

52:15

And and so the goal is to

52:17

win the World Cup. If I told you the

52:20

US will advance to the

52:22

round of eight, will get obviously out of

52:24

the group, will win one match, would

52:26

you sign on to the round of eight right now?

52:30

Uh? Listen. We went to the quarterfinals in two

52:32

thousand and two when we were handball away from going

52:34

to the semifinals. So getting to the upper

52:36

echelance of a World Cup can

52:38

happen. I know some people when I say

52:41

that the that the goal should be to win the World Cup

52:43

in six or when I said

52:45

it in you know two, you

52:47

know, they say, oh, that's being you know, disingenuous

52:49

or you're being delusional. No, that's not that's not the case

52:51

at all. I just I believe

52:54

and not and and again this isn't blind

52:57

faith. This is a belief

52:59

that any thing can happen, even

53:01

impossible things can happen. And

53:04

am i am I taking all of my money

53:06

right now and going to Vegas and putting it all

53:08

on the US in terms of smart money.

53:11

No, but things can happen. And

53:13

it's not completely out of the realm of

53:15

possibility. Hell, we're America. We've

53:17

seen our hockey team do something that said

53:20

that people said this is impossible to do.

53:22

So any absolutely anything can happen.

53:25

And I don't think that it's ridiculous

53:27

to think that the men's team in given

53:30

what they are now, what they will be in six

53:33

can't find a way to do things that we haven't

53:35

done before. And yes, to challenge for a World

53:37

Cup? Would you take the round

53:40

of eight? If I gave it to you right now? You said you'd take

53:42

forty years, uh lifespan

53:44

sign on for right now? Would you sign on to the

53:46

round of eight? Yeah,

53:49

but I'm greedy, So yeah, I take it. But

53:51

you know I want I want quarterfinals at the very

53:54

least. All

53:56

right, So um, Christian

53:58

Pulistic let me. So. There's

54:00

a lot of scandals now around the US

54:03

soccer team, and on some level I

54:06

kind of take that as a sign of

54:08

how much more people care, because

54:10

I bet if you went back in time,

54:13

I bet there were twenty scandals that never

54:16

went public that you're like, boy,

54:18

I'm glad there wasn't, you know, social media.

54:20

I'm glad that we didn't have everybody on Twitter.

54:22

You know, I'm glad. And that's the case,

54:24

by the way, for anybody that was on

54:26

any team on basically any level

54:29

for much of the nineties, the eighties

54:32

into the early two thousands. I

54:34

always think it's funny you talk to athletes, they're

54:36

like, man, you'all spend a lot of time talking

54:38

about this scandal, but you didn't

54:40

even hear about the four bigger scandals

54:42

that never went public. Right. Anybody who's

54:44

on a pro athletic team right now, uh

54:47

is nodding along because a small measure

54:49

of the actual controversy ever goes

54:52

public. When you see the controversies

54:54

that are out there, like the geo controversy

54:56

that is out there, does it make you

54:59

think, Okay, this is a sign of the growth

55:01

of America as a soccer country

55:03

and we just have to get used to these interpersonal,

55:06

dynamic conflicts. Or does

55:08

it make you think, hey,

55:10

maybe the US soccer culture

55:13

in some way is more toxic

55:15

than other countries. How would you assess

55:17

it? As someone who has been all over the world playing

55:19

soccer. Alright, so we're not more

55:21

toxic than other soccer countries. Uh,

55:24

And we don't have you know, more nepotism

55:27

or old boy network or people working in

55:29

the industry, you know type situation

55:32

in any other countries. Everybody's got that, okay,

55:35

um, you know for for those that are that you know, maybe

55:37

maybe don't know. Over the last couple of weeks, we've had this,

55:39

you know, this huge controversy and uh

55:42

uh you know, and this uh, this crisis, if you will,

55:44

with uh with Geoana, one

55:46

of our our young players, and his father

55:49

and mother comes find out we're

55:51

you know, basically calling up and

55:54

inappropriately calling up members

55:56

and ultimately friends that are in charge,

55:58

whether it's Greig Berhalter are head coach or Ernie

56:00

Stewart who's the head of the federation,

56:03

relative to their son not playing, and really

56:06

when you when you look at it and read it, you know,

56:08

basically blackmailing him with

56:10

the story from thirty one years ago where

56:12

he kicked his wife when they were both in

56:15

college, and ultimately,

56:18

you know, there was there was you know, seven months

56:20

apart, and they went to therapy and all this kind of stuff

56:22

and then they worked it out and they were married

56:24

now for twenty five years and they have

56:26

four kids, and this story came out. It

56:29

was an unnecessary self

56:31

inflicted wound. That's what the way that I look

56:33

at it, and from a soccer perspective, can

56:35

we withstand it? Yeah, but it's not

56:37

what you know why. So initially I

56:40

was incredibly sad for everybody

56:42

involved because people didn't deserve

56:44

this. Uh, Greg burt Halter's wife,

56:46

Rosaland didn't deserve this and Greg Burhulter

56:49

didn't deserve this. Then I got Then I got

56:51

angry because again,

56:55

look, you can make a bunch of different

56:57

arguments as to whether to continue on with

56:59

Greg Burr Halter as the coach. And for those that don't

57:01

know, paper Halter was a coach this past World Cup.

57:04

He might have done well if you if you think so, he might

57:06

not have done well. But you can make an argument

57:08

that he shouldn't continue on. But

57:10

in no way, shape or form should part of that

57:13

argument be this story

57:15

that was put out there in order

57:17

to hurt him, and you can't put it back. That genie

57:19

is out, you're not putting it back. And so that's

57:22

where the anger in me came

57:24

about. We'll get through this, you know, this too shall

57:26

pass. But in the American soccer, as is the case

57:28

probably in a lot of sports and a lot of industries,

57:31

out there. You know, we eat our

57:33

own and it's disappointing, it's sad, it's

57:35

angering. But again, this is kind

57:37

of stuff that you have to go through. And to your point, you

57:39

know a lot of sports deal with this on a consistent

57:41

basis. How do you balance

57:45

critique in the world of

57:47

soccer where you know everybody

57:50

and sometimes you've known people for generations,

57:53

you might know their parents, uh.

57:55

With also simultaneously

57:57

those personal relationships, and

58:00

then have a job that requires you to comment

58:02

on their performance in a public

58:04

way. And the reason I bring it up, I'll give you a good example.

58:07

We had Charles Barkley on and he's

58:09

no longer friends with Michael Jordan's they used

58:11

to be best friends. But he has to comment

58:13

on Michael Jordan's role as

58:16

a GM or as an

58:18

owner, and Jordan's

58:20

got super upset about that. Uh

58:22

And Barkley said, ultimately that's painful

58:25

to him, but the job requires that

58:27

he be honest. I'm sure that's

58:29

happened sometimes in your life where somebody

58:31

has said You've got a great private relationship

58:34

with them, but they have a public job. How

58:36

do you balance that in terms of what you

58:38

do? Yeah,

58:41

I mean, well that to me that that says

58:43

that Michael Jordan's stought. Okay, I

58:45

never thought i'd say that, But I mean, that's

58:48

that's soft because he is

58:50

Charles Barkley is doing his job. I'm

58:52

sure you know the same. You know, you've

58:54

probably had experienced this too. I have had

58:57

um girlfriends, boyfriend

59:00

uh, wives, husband's,

59:03

mother's, father's, grandparents,

59:06

friends, acquaintances, coaches,

59:08

every single you know, one of these people

59:10

at certain point has come up to me, either

59:13

to my face, uh, through text,

59:16

over a telephone or behind my back, doesn't

59:18

matter. But at some point I have had those

59:20

conversations. The best ones actually are where

59:22

it's face to face in the humb in the human because

59:24

you need you just need to let them get it out, and oftentimes

59:27

that's all they want to do. I've had one. I

59:29

remember once I said something about a

59:31

player and his father cornered me

59:33

in the bar after the game and started

59:35

screaming, yelling and going off. By the end of

59:37

the night we were having drinks at the bar. Okay.

59:40

So, and that's wonderful. But

59:43

I, like Charles, I have to

59:45

do my job and I have to say

59:47

things that at times can be critical.

59:49

I like to think that I do it in a fair way,

59:52

and I like to think that I do it in a balanced

59:54

way in terms of also making sure that

59:56

it's not all negative. But if

59:58

I see something that I agree with

1:00:01

or deserves criticism, I'm not

1:00:03

doing my job. I'm not earning my money,

1:00:05

or I might not get another job if I

1:00:07

don't do it. And that's what I want to watch out of,

1:00:09

you know, an analyst when it comes to sports.

1:00:12

That's what it does, the job and the role

1:00:14

demands. And I got no problem. And you

1:00:16

know, there's people now, even in my life

1:00:19

that I you know, grew up playing with that I was, that

1:00:21

I was friends with that you know, they might

1:00:23

act differently around, but the best ones

1:00:25

are the ones that recognize, Hey, he

1:00:28

is doing his job. And while it may be painful

1:00:30

in that moment to have to to have to hear

1:00:32

that, I would rather he do that than

1:00:34

pull punches, because then he's not doing

1:00:36

his job. Not everybody's like that, and some people

1:00:38

take offense, and maybe some relationships

1:00:40

their damaged, and a may even some relationships

1:00:43

are completely severed. But I'm okay

1:00:45

with that because i'd rather, I'd rather do this job

1:00:47

the way the job needs to be done. What's

1:00:51

it like to be on the road for the length

1:00:53

of time in foreign countries. You'll

1:00:55

get to be back in the United States and twenty six.

1:00:58

What is covering the World Cup like?

1:01:00

And how does it compare to playing in a World

1:01:02

Cup? So it's very different

1:01:05

than playing, But there is that level of competition.

1:01:07

There's the internal competition with yourself,

1:01:10

there is a competition with the other talent

1:01:12

that is involved, and there's a competition

1:01:15

relative to being at the highest stage. This is

1:01:17

the World Cup. Is the greatest

1:01:19

groundhog Day from a soccer perspective,

1:01:21

for for a former soccer player that you

1:01:24

can have. But it is a ritual.

1:01:26

It is a routine and I've

1:01:28

done so many of these now and you know, some

1:01:30

younger folks will come and ask me, and I tell

1:01:32

them, stick to ritual, stick to routine,

1:01:35

because that's what what's gonna get you through. I

1:01:37

mean, we're having at times four games

1:01:39

a day and you're just cranking through

1:01:41

this. You've got to take care of your body, You've got

1:01:44

to take care of your mind. Um, and

1:01:46

you have to you have to love it. I mean, I

1:01:48

know you've seen this phenomenon in our in our

1:01:50

in our industry, right, there are so

1:01:52

many people that use television,

1:01:55

use broadcasting, use media as a way

1:01:57

station until something better comes along.

1:01:59

And I get it, I understand that, but

1:02:02

I think ultimately, uh, that

1:02:04

will manifest itself in your performance and

1:02:07

you will be cheating yourself and you will be cheating

1:02:09

the viewer. And I don't want to cheat anybody.

1:02:11

I'm a junkie for what I do, and I

1:02:13

want to be surrounded by like minded

1:02:15

people. I want to be surrounded by

1:02:18

junkies that love the game, that

1:02:20

love the broadcast aspect of the

1:02:22

game, that love debating and talking

1:02:24

about it, and that bring it day in

1:02:26

and day out. And look, we've both been surrounded by

1:02:28

some grapes in the industry. And when

1:02:30

you see them work and you see that what

1:02:33

goes on behind the scenes, it is incredible

1:02:35

because it's not what you ultimately see

1:02:37

on the screen. It's that Iceberg

1:02:40

type of theory where this this incredible base

1:02:42

and all of this work that goes on, but

1:02:44

that's what makes that tip of the iceberg that

1:02:46

you do see on screen, that's what makes

1:02:48

it good. And if you don't do the work

1:02:50

and you don't have that base, then your tip of

1:02:52

your iceberg is not gonna look as good. It's

1:02:55

a well said and I tell everybody out there.

1:02:57

And one of the reasons I love doing these conversations is

1:02:59

because there's lots of younger people out there who

1:03:01

see the success, but they don't

1:03:03

have any idea all of the work

1:03:06

that goes into it. In fact, I think that's really

1:03:08

incredibly common in the United States and particularly

1:03:10

around the world today. Um, but I

1:03:12

always say before I do my radio show, I

1:03:15

got three hours of radio every day. I'm

1:03:17

spending so much time feeding

1:03:20

my brain with information every

1:03:22

day so that I have a

1:03:24

depth of knowledge to whatever topic

1:03:26

I'm discussing. Because if I haven't done

1:03:28

all that research, then whatever I'm

1:03:31

saying on the air, ultimately

1:03:33

you can tell that there's no foundation supporting

1:03:35

it. And so uh A part

1:03:37

of that, massive part of that is the passion

1:03:40

you have. Passion still. Uh.

1:03:42

There are viral videos of you out

1:03:45

there crying when the U S wins

1:03:47

soccer matches that uh that

1:03:49

that that we end up winning. I imagine sometimes you want

1:03:51

to cry when the US loses in a match

1:03:54

that you feel like they could have won. Um,

1:03:57

how do you how do you corral that

1:03:59

passion, right, Because I think about this all

1:04:01

the time there, especially

1:04:03

when it's one thing when you're playing you have to learn

1:04:05

how to manage it. It's another thing when

1:04:07

you're commenting on it, reacting

1:04:09

to it. Uh, what is that experience

1:04:12

like in your mind? Because that's

1:04:14

the way that many fans feel. How

1:04:16

do you harness it? What does that do for you

1:04:19

as a as an analyst? Yeah,

1:04:22

I mean you you do, I think have to understand

1:04:25

and like you said, harness

1:04:27

it. But I also think that you

1:04:29

know, it was a There's always been a

1:04:31

debate as to especially

1:04:33

when you're talking about you know, oftentimes I'm talking

1:04:36

about the United States men's national team or the

1:04:38

U S team, the women's team, men's team, whatever, and

1:04:40

do you use we right because I'm

1:04:42

an American and this is my team.

1:04:45

Um, and you know, listen debate as to whether

1:04:47

you do or not. And we really came down ultimately,

1:04:50

and this has happened over years where absolutely

1:04:53

I want to I want to recognize

1:04:55

that there is a connection. I want to recognize

1:04:58

in the people that I'm watching that I'm here, that

1:05:00

there is an emotion, that there is a history that

1:05:02

there that they are moved. I

1:05:05

want to be moved by the people that I'm

1:05:07

watching. And so it's not that you know, you should

1:05:09

come on and blubber every single time you're on air.

1:05:11

But if you feel that, don't be afraid

1:05:14

to show it. And yes, there's times where you need to

1:05:16

be stoic, and yes there's times where

1:05:18

you need to regulate what

1:05:21

what is going on in terms of your emotion. And

1:05:23

if it impacts the effect for you to be

1:05:25

able to articulate things or to be clear

1:05:28

or to give information that you need, then

1:05:31

that is problematic. But seeing human

1:05:33

beings until they replace us all clay with

1:05:35

that with robots, um, I want to see

1:05:37

the humanity. I want to see

1:05:39

that that person, male or female out there

1:05:42

has a connection and it is feeling something

1:05:44

visceral and it's able to transmit that

1:05:47

back to me and you can see it and you

1:05:49

can hear it, and when it is there, it's

1:05:51

just it's a it's a it's a beautiful

1:05:53

thing. And I'll tell you what there there there

1:05:56

is a whole generation that is

1:05:58

coming up that wants my job, you

1:06:00

know, and they can pry it from my cold,

1:06:02

dead, red headed hands. I'm gonna hold

1:06:04

onto it as long as I possibly can. I

1:06:07

love what I do. I can certainly get

1:06:09

better at what at what I'm doing, but

1:06:11

it is incredibly I'm

1:06:13

incredibly lucky and fortunate to be able

1:06:16

to do this. It is not lost on me.

1:06:18

I know, in this day and age, you've gotta you know, admit your

1:06:20

privilege or whatever and stuff like that. But so I am

1:06:22

incredibly privileged to be able to do what I can

1:06:24

do, and hopefully I can do it for many, many more

1:06:26

years. So you're gonna be

1:06:29

calling and analyzing games

1:06:32

for decades into the future. I

1:06:34

think. I think you're really good at what you do. Christian

1:06:37

Pulistic A big part of

1:06:39

whether we have a chance to ever win

1:06:41

a World Cup in the next decade or

1:06:43

so, I think will be directly tied

1:06:45

to his development many other players

1:06:47

as well. Do you think Pulistic is

1:06:49

going to be the greatest American soccer player

1:06:52

ever? Is that too early of a question to even

1:06:54

ask? And how much of his growth

1:06:56

is a player is directly tied

1:06:58

in in your mind to the overall

1:07:01

potential success rate for the US going

1:07:03

forward. I think

1:07:05

his resume maybe

1:07:07

the greatest that we have ever had. Um

1:07:10

his impact on the game,

1:07:13

you know that that remains to be seen. I

1:07:15

mean, look, he had a he had a good

1:07:17

World Cup, not a great World

1:07:19

Cup, and we expect big things from him,

1:07:21

and I think rightfully so one of the most talented

1:07:24

players that we've ever seen. But he's also you

1:07:26

know, he's very shy and he doesn't

1:07:28

necessarily like the spotlight. Um

1:07:30

he's not, you know, a gregarious

1:07:33

social type of bigger than life

1:07:35

type of personality. I think

1:07:37

he's going to get better. He's kind of grown

1:07:39

out of I know he's injured right now, but

1:07:42

there was a time where he was getting injured a whole lot. I

1:07:44

hope that he continues to h to grow

1:07:46

out of that. And I'm you you know, Clay uh.

1:07:49

Staying healthy is a skill in

1:07:51

sports, and some players have it and

1:07:53

some players don't. Christian has yet to

1:07:55

shown that he is can consistently

1:07:57

stay healthy. But when he is on the field, he

1:08:00

and do some magic stuff. But I don't think he's ever going

1:08:02

to be the focal point,

1:08:04

the Lebronish type of player, the

1:08:06

messy type of player for the

1:08:09

US in that he's gonna be surrounded

1:08:11

by players that might take more of the spot

1:08:13

late, but he will have his moments when all of sudden

1:08:15

done, you said earlier, hockey

1:08:17

soccer for you, growing up, hockey

1:08:19

and soccer fans are somewhat familiar,

1:08:22

mirror images almost sometimes of each other,

1:08:25

because, as somebody who did a national sports

1:08:27

talk show runs out Kick, we

1:08:29

talk a lot about football, we talk a lot about

1:08:32

basketball, certainly in baseball, and

1:08:35

whenever we mentioned hockey or soccer,

1:08:37

people are always like, hey, talk about us more, talk

1:08:39

about us more. And then as soon as you start

1:08:41

talking about him, they say, oh, you don't

1:08:44

know what you're talking about. One of the

1:08:46

interesting things I think about growing the game

1:08:48

of soccer and it's fandom

1:08:50

is in the United States uniquely,

1:08:53

soccer fans are elitist. They're

1:08:55

probably over educated, they

1:08:57

probably have uh, you know, higher

1:09:00

income, and the rest of the world,

1:09:02

soccer is the sport of the common man. In

1:09:05

the United States, soccer is the

1:09:07

sport of the elitist fan.

1:09:09

I would say, and I understand there's some criticism out

1:09:11

there whenever you make this, but this is what

1:09:13

I see. You know, the Joe six pack

1:09:16

is in the crowd at a football game,

1:09:18

at a basketball game, at a football

1:09:20

game. I don't necessarily know that he is

1:09:22

at soccer. How does soccer interestingly

1:09:25

become more of a common man sport and

1:09:27

less of an elitist sport in America

1:09:30

when it's the exact opposite basically everywhere

1:09:32

else. Yeah, so I'm so glad

1:09:34

you mentioned this because it drives me

1:09:37

nuts as soccer people, and I'm

1:09:39

probably you know to your point, the hockey

1:09:41

people are the kind of the same in that I

1:09:43

want as many people into the tent as

1:09:46

possible, and I don't want to do anything

1:09:48

that is going to create a barrier to entry. I

1:09:50

want I want people to love this game as

1:09:52

much as I do, and until they actually see

1:09:54

it and bring it bring into the tent, it's

1:09:57

not going to happen. And so I want to be there welcoming

1:10:00

people in. And yes, to your point, we

1:10:02

as soccer people can be incredibly elitist,

1:10:04

incredibly snobby, and it

1:10:07

can be a deterrent to people uh

1:10:09

coming coming into the game going forward.

1:10:11

We can also be incredibly insecure, and I think

1:10:13

that just comes from not being king

1:10:15

and having to fight and crawl and

1:10:18

scrape for absolutely every

1:10:20

little inch of you know, whether it's

1:10:22

UH media coverage or attention

1:10:25

or ultimately what it comes down to is

1:10:27

credibility. But whether it's on out kick

1:10:29

or anything else, you're a business. You

1:10:31

are going to give the people what they want

1:10:33

until the data tells you that they want

1:10:35

something different. And it doesn't mean that

1:10:37

you don't try different things. It doesn't

1:10:40

mean that you don't recognize that your viewership

1:10:42

and your readers have a palette

1:10:44

out there that has expanded. But ultimately,

1:10:47

you want to make sure you get clicks. You want to make sure

1:10:49

that you have people that are subscribing. You want

1:10:51

to make sure that you're giving them what they want,

1:10:53

and so were we cannot be a charity.

1:10:56

We have to show that this is a sport

1:10:58

on the field that is worthy of your time and

1:11:00

off the field is worthy of your

1:11:03

business. And to the extent that we,

1:11:05

you know, put our put our noses in

1:11:07

the air, or do things in the way that we

1:11:09

act, or the things that we say that

1:11:12

drive people away, that is

1:11:14

the worst possible thing that we can

1:11:16

do. I don't want to be um

1:11:18

exclusionary. I want to be as

1:11:20

inviting as possible as a sport

1:11:22

for everybody in America. And I sure

1:11:24

as hell don't want people to feel

1:11:27

intimidated or scared about

1:11:29

but the vernacular that we use, or

1:11:32

the you know, the the supporters

1:11:34

groups, and the culture that we have

1:11:36

and the way that we talk about the game or dress or

1:11:39

or book it ourselves, that that cannot

1:11:41

be a hindrance and too often to your point,

1:11:44

it is um

1:11:46

you have traveled all over the world. I want

1:11:48

to give you an opportunity to give some give

1:11:50

some stories and or tell people where

1:11:52

you think they should go based on your experience.

1:11:54

But also have you ever felt

1:11:57

endangered at all

1:11:59

while you've been covering the World

1:12:01

Cup all over the world? Like I'm sure

1:12:03

you found yourself in some interesting alleys

1:12:06

at different points, have you ever felt

1:12:08

physically in danger? So

1:12:10

a lot of times I have security with me. But

1:12:13

you know, over the years, you know as a player,

1:12:16

you know, especially going into Central America, and

1:12:18

keep in mind that there's you know, there's this whole

1:12:21

you know, social type

1:12:23

of aspect to it and cultural and

1:12:25

political type of aspect to be. To be

1:12:27

honest with you, because even though soccer

1:12:30

isn't king in the US, we still

1:12:32

represent, you know, for many

1:12:34

countries, you know, the big bag US

1:12:37

and all of the baggage that you know that we

1:12:39

bring. And so when we go down and play some of these

1:12:41

countries. It may be their only movements

1:12:44

when they get to beat up on America,

1:12:46

when they get to say that they are better than America

1:12:49

at something, and don't underestimate the power

1:12:51

of that. And so we go down into these cauldron's

1:12:54

to play. And so in the stadium

1:12:56

there's security everywhere, and there's moats,

1:12:58

and there's fences, and there's guard

1:13:00

dogs and their machine guns and all this kind

1:13:03

of stuff to protect us

1:13:05

as Americans from the moment that we land

1:13:07

to the moment that we that we leave.

1:13:09

Now, I've been in situations, whether it's as a

1:13:11

player as a broadcaster at different times in

1:13:13

different countries where stuff has happened

1:13:16

and you know, people have you know, threatened

1:13:18

me and do all that. But you know, some of that comes with

1:13:20

the territory. And yeah, at the moment,

1:13:22

it's it's not great. But like I said, I

1:13:25

I don't want to I don't

1:13:27

want to deny myself the opportunity

1:13:29

to have these great experiences, to see different

1:13:32

places, to to understand

1:13:34

and to meet different people and to experience

1:13:36

different cultures simply because you

1:13:38

know, there's the possibility of something happening.

1:13:41

But yeah, I mean, didn't you get a gun pulled on you

1:13:43

in Russia? That's what I was trying to keep keep.

1:13:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, I mean it was

1:13:49

you know, that's scary, that's not fun,

1:13:51

um. But you know, I mean, obviously they

1:13:53

didn't like the way I talked about the game or something.

1:13:55

I don't know what the hell they were angry

1:13:57

about. But you know it's Russia too. So we

1:14:00

were in my mouth the World Cup and

1:14:02

uh yeah, you've never seen our security

1:14:05

go into action faster? When then when when

1:14:07

that happened? And luckily nothing ultimately

1:14:10

did happen of it happen and become

1:14:12

of it, And I'm I'm still here to tell the tale. Um.

1:14:16

If you could go anywhere in the world, you've

1:14:18

gotten to travel all over the place to play soccer.

1:14:20

Where is your favorite place that you have been

1:14:23

both potentially to play soccer in terms of

1:14:25

a stadium that you've gotten to play in, but

1:14:27

also just a city or a country

1:14:29

where you thought, Man, I would love

1:14:31

to be able to spend more time here. This

1:14:34

place is exquisite. Yeah,

1:14:36

I mean, so, I I know you recently visited Italy

1:14:38

and so I played there many years ago, and

1:14:41

you know the culture just in general

1:14:44

is incredible, the food and the travel and

1:14:46

these you know, the incredible history and I know you're a

1:14:48

big history buff, uh, that's wonderful.

1:14:50

But then you add this this incredible culture and

1:14:52

history when it comes to the game. You know, these

1:14:54

stadiums that they have, whether it's Sin Siro Stadium

1:14:57

in uh in Milan, you know, these

1:15:00

types of legendary cathedrals

1:15:02

that we have. You know, I played in the old Wembley

1:15:04

Stadium and you know that's the stadium

1:15:07

that where England played and where uh

1:15:09

you know, Freddie Mercury played in all these different

1:15:11

places and all these different you know, incredible

1:15:14

moments through history and so to being able

1:15:16

to use soccer to see some of these some

1:15:18

of these places. But seeing a

1:15:20

country and culture through the eyes of soccer,

1:15:23

I think can be incredibly illuminating because

1:15:25

soccer is so important in many of these

1:15:28

countries that it informs everything,

1:15:30

and it forms you know, politics and

1:15:32

social uh you know, uh, pleasantries

1:15:35

and obviously you know, it's incredibly

1:15:37

tribal from wherever you are,

1:15:39

and it's it infiltrates and

1:15:42

like I said, informs almost everything that happens

1:15:44

on a day to day basis, and it's really amazing

1:15:46

to see a country because and I'm not saying

1:15:48

it's better or worse. I'm just saying it's very different

1:15:51

in the way that we look at our sports. And

1:15:53

a lot of people will try to say, well that means

1:15:56

it's more passionate and we have more you

1:15:58

know, we don't have as passionate uh sports

1:16:00

fans here in the U S. That's a bunch of bs.

1:16:02

Okay, I think that we are. Actually,

1:16:05

I think we understand much more about

1:16:07

what sports is and what it

1:16:10

isn't. And certainly there are times where people

1:16:12

go, you know, over the line and

1:16:14

I think, you know, you are a huge you know,

1:16:16

college football fan, that type of passion.

1:16:19

I'll put that up against the soccer fans

1:16:21

around the world. And I love,

1:16:24

though, being able to see a country, culture,

1:16:26

a city, an area relative

1:16:28

to their sports. And sometimes you can find out a lot

1:16:30

about a place and find out a lot about a people

1:16:33

relative to their sports. All right, last

1:16:35

question for you, and we appreciate all the time has been

1:16:37

wins and losses. Alexei Lallis, I'm Clay

1:16:39

Travis. A lot of people out there

1:16:41

who listen to these interviews are

1:16:44

young right, Uh, and or their

1:16:46

dads or granddads give it to young people and

1:16:48

say, hey, here's how you can learn and

1:16:50

continue to evolve. If you were

1:16:52

talking to a young soccer player today,

1:16:55

uh, fourteen year old Alexei Lawless

1:16:57

playing somewhere in the country today, and

1:16:59

he not only wants to play for his national

1:17:02

team, but he also is interested potentially

1:17:04

in a career in media sports

1:17:07

media in general. What would you tell

1:17:09

that young person could be a boy or girl out

1:17:11

there that they should be working on

1:17:13

at fourteen fifteen years old, as

1:17:16

they age and as they grow, and hey, maybe

1:17:18

there's twenty two year old college version of you

1:17:20

out there who's listening right now too. What

1:17:22

do you wish you had known in terms of your

1:17:24

career path? Okay,

1:17:27

so when it comes to broadcasting, and I

1:17:29

get a lot of young uh, you know, men

1:17:31

and women that come up and want to talk about

1:17:33

it. So first off, and you know this

1:17:35

phenomenon son a phenomenon. It's just

1:17:37

the reality of the opportunities that we

1:17:39

get as ex players. Okay. The

1:17:42

door will open to you

1:17:44

more so than others because you played,

1:17:46

all right, It will not stay open forever, and

1:17:49

you you better be ready when it does open.

1:17:51

And so, first off, if you are already

1:17:53

playing, if you're a you know, a professional, and you're

1:17:55

thinking about a career in broadcast, if

1:17:58

you can recognize a more went to jump

1:18:00

off. You know, I was thirty two years old

1:18:02

when I stopped playing, which is still relatively

1:18:05

young. But I got given an opportunity,

1:18:07

and so a jumping off point came, and

1:18:09

I was smart enough in that moment to recognize

1:18:12

that while I could have continued playing, this

1:18:14

was an opportunity to go and do something that

1:18:16

possibly could last obviously well beyond

1:18:18

my career, but could become a career.

1:18:21

And you've got to have the wherewithal to recognize,

1:18:23

because your career I guarantee you will

1:18:25

never end in the way that you want.

1:18:28

When it comes to specifics on broadcasting,

1:18:30

I think you and I both know that your ability

1:18:32

to edit, either beforehand or in

1:18:34

real time is crucial, especially

1:18:36

when you work in television and you've got somebody

1:18:39

in your ear telling you you've got thirteen seconds and

1:18:41

we gotta get off air, and you've got to be able

1:18:43

to say something that is interesting, that is

1:18:45

informative to make it make sure that you say

1:18:47

it in an entertaining way so that people

1:18:49

aren't changing the channel. And that comes

1:18:51

with reps, that comes with the ability

1:18:54

to do something. Some of it's innate. I mean, you

1:18:56

know as well as I do. There's plenty of people

1:18:58

that we say, oh, that person will be great on Tell of Vision.

1:19:00

And it's different when you're answering questions

1:19:02

to a reporter after a game or something

1:19:04

like that, or obviously if you're sitting on your couch.

1:19:07

So that all sorry

1:19:09

to cut you off, But the

1:19:11

green room. There are dudes that

1:19:13

I have set in the green room with literally

1:19:16

a hundred yards at most from the actual

1:19:18

studio, and I've been like, this

1:19:20

guy is going to kill it

1:19:23

on television, and a hundred

1:19:25

yard walk into the studio. They

1:19:28

get deer in headlights. They are

1:19:30

at or twenty as

1:19:32

engaging as they were in the green room.

1:19:35

There's a big difference. When those lights come on. It's

1:19:38

brutal. It is brutal, but that red light, I

1:19:40

I live for it. I can't wait. People ask

1:19:42

me, do you get nervous? Hell? Yeah, And if I'm

1:19:44

not nervous, I'm not ready. I love that

1:19:46

feeling. And now I have learned to harness that nervous

1:19:48

energy and direct it into

1:19:51

you know, down the barrel. If I'm talking down the barrel,

1:19:53

if I'm looking over at rob Stone, I

1:19:55

love that it jacks me up. I will never

1:19:57

be able to replicate playing. I've come to

1:20:00

that realization over the years, and you better

1:20:02

figure that out quickly. But I've found something

1:20:04

that jacks me up as much, and in many ways

1:20:07

it rewards me and fulfills

1:20:09

me even more so than anything I did on the

1:20:11

field. The U S wins

1:20:13

the World Cup in you

1:20:15

get to do talk about it on television. You

1:20:18

finish television, first thing

1:20:20

you want to do when you leave the television

1:20:22

set to celebrate is what, Oh

1:20:26

my goodness, well, I will be in tears.

1:20:28

I will be in an older gentleman

1:20:30

who will be thinking about all of

1:20:32

the history and everything that has come before.

1:20:35

I think, you know, honestly, I will

1:20:37

be wanting to celebrate it with

1:20:40

people that have been around. And this is

1:20:43

you know, this is a labor of love. It's still a labor.

1:20:45

It's gotten easier over the years, but it's still

1:20:47

pushing that boulder up and there are so many

1:20:49

men and women on and off the field that have

1:20:52

worked so long to be able to get to

1:20:54

that point, and so I would I would look around and

1:20:56

give big hugs to the people that will

1:20:59

never ever get the at it. You will never know their

1:21:01

name, that have worked to enable us to

1:21:03

be in that moment. Now, it's not it doesn't

1:21:05

change everything overnight, but it's a

1:21:07

hell of an injection to have. He

1:21:09

is Alexei Lawless. How can people

1:21:12

find you? What would people would you tell? People who enjoyed

1:21:14

this conversation who want more listen.

1:21:17

You can come yell at me on Twitter at Alexei Lawless

1:21:20

or Instagram or anything out there. I have my

1:21:22

State of the Union podcast on Fox. And then

1:21:24

if look, if somebody's kicking a ball out

1:21:26

there, men's women's co ed naked, I

1:21:28

am. They're talking about it on Fox. That

1:21:32

is outstanding. I am Clay Travis. He is

1:21:34

Alexei Lawless. This has been wins

1:21:36

and losses.