0:02

This is Wins and Losses with Clay

0:04

Travis. Clay talks with the most

0:06

entertaining people in sports, entertainment

0:09

and business. Now here's

0:11

Clay Travis. Welcome

0:20

and appreciate all of you listening to us the

0:22

Wins and Losses Podcast. I am Clay

0:24

Travis, and we are about to be joined by Megan Kelly,

0:26

who has had a really impressive

0:29

media career. She also fled the law

0:31

as as quickly, probably as she could.

0:33

I'm actually curious. I read quite a

0:35

bit about her practice of law and her most recent

0:37

book. But we're going to run through a bunch of different

0:40

stories, but beginning right

0:42

off the top here. Megan, thanks for joining us,

0:44

and was leaving the practice of law

0:46

the best decision you ever made in your career?

0:49

It was definitely one of them. Um. Yeah,

0:51

it wasn't that easy at the time, but yes,

0:54

in retrospect for sure. By the way, thank you for having

0:56

me. Um. So you know how it is

0:58

when you become a lawyer or anything

1:01

that requires a bunch of schooling, right, So it's a

1:03

lot of money and a lot of time. Your

1:06

ego gets attached to it. And

1:08

I had worked my tail off. I was at

1:11

a big, well respected firm, Jones

1:13

Day, which I loved, and I was about

1:15

to make partner. I was there nine years, I

1:18

practiced law nine years and

1:20

was about to make partner. And that was a feather that I

1:23

wanted in my cap. You know, I felt that I had earned

1:25

it, and I don't remember

1:27

my twenties because I was at the office of the entire

1:29

time, and I really felt

1:31

like I should stay long enough to

1:33

get that feather. But then

1:35

I just got honest with myself and realized

1:38

I was miserable. Miserable.

1:41

You know. It's they say the law is a jealous

1:43

mistress, and you know, my mistress is so

1:45

needy. She was calling constantly.

1:47

She never gave me a weekend off, and

1:49

I wanted my mistress to go away.

1:52

So finally I did find, you know, the

1:54

resolve to get out, and I never looked

1:56

back. You know. It's just the

1:58

parts of the practice of I do miss,

2:00

but the overall lifestyle

2:03

I don't miss one bit. So

2:05

I want to kind of dive into that because

2:07

we have a lot of lawyers who listened to this show,

2:10

and you hit on several different interesting

2:12

angles there that that I find

2:14

to be fascinating. And I want to start with the first one. One

2:17

of the pratfalls I would say

2:19

of having success is people

2:21

look at you like you're crazy when

2:23

you decide to do something else. And I

2:26

people who kind of know my story and are listening.

2:28

I practiced law for a couple of years, and

2:30

I remember I started at twenty five. I had

2:32

what I call a quarter life crisis, and I was looking around

2:34

the office and I was like, oh my god, this could

2:37

be the next fifty years of my life being

2:39

a litigator. And I was like, this is not

2:41

what I love. It's slow moving. I don't

2:43

like the procedural aspects of the law.

2:45

I don't really enjoy writing over

2:48

the same issues, arguing about things that

2:50

I don't really care about, frankly, and

2:52

so I ended up like writing was my escape,

2:55

writing about sports, which led into radio, which

2:57

led into TV. For you,

2:59

was there or a moment in your career

3:01

where you had sort of an epiphany and you

3:04

thought this is not for

3:06

me, even though, like you said, you're about to be partner.

3:08

You're being very successful, You're making a

3:10

lot of money. What I called the golden handcuffs

3:12

very often of being a lawyer, where

3:15

you can't quite find the will to

3:17

escape. What was it for you

3:20

that was that final impetus or epiphany

3:23

or was there one or was it a gradual process?

3:25

Well, there was there was a moment, an aha

3:28

moment. But you know, like you, I know, you had a

3:30

middle class background, and so did I and so

3:33

and I put myself through law school, so I had a

3:35

bunch of debt and I

3:37

had never seen or even dreamed of money

3:40

like they were paying me. You know it was it

3:42

felt like a fortune and one

3:44

that I could never rebuild if I left

3:46

the firm. I mean, just I was so

3:48

proud of myself, you know, for making good

3:50

and earning real money on my own,

3:53

paying back my law school debt, and I just thought, who

3:55

am I If I'm not Megan Kelly Esquire.

3:58

Yes, I'm not sure who I am or whether I could

4:01

ever achieve this level of success. And of

4:03

course the firm pulled me aside

4:05

and kind of telegraphed, You'll never achieve this

4:07

level of success if you leave. You

4:09

know, you're a great guy who I love.

4:11

A Jones pulled me aside. He was in the issues and Appeals

4:14

department, which is very are you day, and

4:16

he said MKA. He said, no matter how

4:18

good you are at whatever else you intend

4:20

to do, you will never be as good at

4:22

that as you are at the practice of law. You

4:25

don't leave. And you know you've got

4:27

really smart people saying things like that to you. You think

4:31

I shouldn't go like I. But with

4:35

all that in mind, there was one night I was in Chicago

4:38

and I was driving home in the Kennedy

4:40

one night at two am,

4:42

yet again, and just tears

4:45

were streaming down my face because I

4:47

was exhausted. As you know,

4:49

the practice of law is incredibly acrimonious.

4:52

I was a litigator, so you know, constant

4:54

fighting, and it's really it's

4:57

just snake pit fighting. Um.

5:00

I was just stressed out and I hadn't seen I'd

5:02

missed funerals, I'd missed weddings, and

5:04

I thought maybe

5:08

I could just go off the road and break a femur. Like

5:10

if I broke a femur, then I'd

5:13

have to be in the hospital for a while. It can't just

5:15

be like a rib because I'll have to go back. It's

5:20

wild that lawyers think like that, but

5:22

you sometimes do start to

5:24

think, Man, if I just had an illness that I

5:26

know, I could get over but you know,

5:29

like it wasn't that bad, but I couldn't

5:31

work for a couple of weeks. Like, but

5:33

when you start thinking if I could break a leg, I

5:35

could have a little bit more time to myself,

5:38

it's kind of a sign that maybe you don't have

5:40

the perfect work life balance right

5:42

right right, And it's like you finally

5:45

get to the point where you're like, I don't care

5:47

anymore. I went to visit my friend who

5:50

worked in Boston as a nurse at

5:52

her around that time, and she had no

5:54

money, and we've got to high

5:56

school together, we were always close friends. And she was

5:58

so happy. She was living a crappy

6:00

one bedroom walk up and

6:03

we went to the corner bar. We had a couple of beers

6:05

for like a buck each, you know, contrasted

6:07

to my life in Chicago with the big, fancy martiniz

6:10

and the steak dinners and the nice purse,

6:12

you know, and she was so happy,

6:15

and I was so happy with her. It

6:17

was just a reminder that I really didn't

6:19

need all those trappings at all. You

6:22

know, they were just window dressing around a life

6:24

that I wasn't enjoying. And

6:28

so those two things kind of got me to the point where I was

6:30

like, all right, I gotta get out, and now

6:32

the big question is what the hell else can

6:34

I do? Yeah, so you mentioned

6:37

the way that you approached the law

6:39

if you come from a middle class background. I

6:41

remember, as a second year summer

6:43

associate, I was working in downtown

6:46

Nashville, where I grew up. My dad was in another

6:48

building. He was a lifelong state employee,

6:51

and I was making more money as

6:53

a summer associate at twenty three

6:55

years old or whatever the heck I was than

6:57

he was at you know, sixty three

7:00

or four years old, approaching retirement age.

7:02

And remember him coming into that building and seeing

7:04

the office and everything else. And there

7:06

are those trappings of success,

7:08

right, if you never have experienced them before,

7:11

it can feel a little bit constraining

7:14

to even think, oh, I'm gonna leave

7:16

and try something else. But yet

7:18

almost every lawyer you talked to has

7:22

a parachute plan, right. They have

7:24

something they would do if they weren't

7:26

practicing law, and so many of

7:28

them get wrapped up. So you make the decision

7:31

to try something else, and you

7:33

eventually are going to get into working

7:35

in journalism and doing reporting

7:38

and being on television what made

7:40

you think that you would be good at that?

7:42

And did you have any other things or aspirations

7:45

that you also considered exploring

7:48

when you decided to leave. So

7:50

I confess I had nothing other than

7:53

journalism that I thought about. I

7:55

had in high school.

7:57

I had thought, perhaps I want to be a journalist. I took one

7:59

of those APT two tests. You're one of those tests

8:01

that says this is what you should be, and

8:03

it's that journalist, and I thought, okay, well

8:05

that's interesting. I like to write, I like to read. Um,

8:08

I like to tell stories. But I kind

8:10

of I did like a couple of day internship

8:12

with the All of any Times Union, my local paper

8:15

I'm from Albany, New York, and a

8:17

couple of other small things. And then I went

8:20

to Syracuse, so not to the journalism school.

8:22

I couldn't get in there. Um. I went

8:24

for policy and I took a bunch of

8:26

classes at Newhouse and I liked it. But

8:29

then I just got sidetracked with the whole law

8:31

thing. And so when I decided

8:33

to leave the law, it was a natural next

8:35

step to consider. And what I realized

8:37

was and I'm sure you and a lot of your listeners who

8:39

are lawyers understand this. I

8:42

hadn't exactly been preparing for journalism,

8:44

but I had, in the way you see in the Karate

8:47

kid with the wax on and wax off, been

8:49

learning skills that would make me very

8:52

good at the next profession if as so long

8:54

as I chose wisely. You know, there are a

8:56

lot of skills you learn in law school and

8:58

in the practice of law that are very

9:00

transferable, uh, in helpful

9:03

ways to other jobs. And one of

9:05

the things I loved through law school and as

9:07

as a litigator was getting up

9:09

on my feet and making an argument. I loved

9:11

that. I loved being on and

9:13

having the pressure of real

9:15

people looking at me and in

9:18

the case of a judge testing me, uh,

9:20

and the case of a jury needing to be

9:22

persuaded in easy to understand

9:25

terms and to see if I could do it,

9:27

you know. And in the law, you really

9:29

do have to have a foothold, at least in the facts. Unlike

9:33

journalism today, UM,

9:35

you kind of have to stick with the record. And

9:37

that's the challenge, right. You might have bad

9:40

facts and you've got to find a way through them.

9:42

I loved all that. I hated interrogatory.

9:45

I hated the acrimony. I wasn't

9:47

too keen on like the really nasty depositions.

9:50

But I loved arguing in front of courts of

9:52

appeal. I loved all

9:54

the trials I did. It was like that stuff, And so

9:56

I just thought, all those skills are going to

9:58

translate for me in journal So when I first

10:01

started, I stunk, but

10:03

I knew eventually I could be good

10:06

if I just kept practicing. When

10:08

you say you stunk, what does that

10:10

mean? You know, for people out there who haven't ever

10:12

thought about the discipline of being an

10:14

on air reporter, did you go back

10:16

and watch yourself? What were you doing poorly?

10:19

And how did you get the opportunity to even

10:22

find out that you stunk? What did you have to

10:24

do? And how much I'm always fascinated

10:26

by this. How much of a pay cut? I know this is

10:28

in your book, but how much of a pay cut did

10:30

you have to take to move from nearly

10:32

being a partner at one of the elite law firms

10:34

in the country to basically starting

10:37

all over again as a journalist. I

10:39

mean it was huge. I was

10:42

approaching a seven figure deal um

10:45

and I took a job at Page seventeen

10:47

thousand dollars a year when I when

10:49

I left, so it

10:51

was I mean, I wasn't making seven figures, so it would

10:53

have been a partner. But um,

10:57

but there's a big drop from several hundred thousand

10:59

dollars a year your ish to sev

11:02

dollars a year that most people frankly wouldn't

11:04

take no matter what. That's right,

11:06

and you really do have to slam

11:09

face first into the wall of unhappiness.

11:11

I think to make that leap. At least that's what

11:13

it took for me, you know, you know,

11:15

thinking about harming yourself, like that's that's

11:18

more than a red flag, you know, that's a five alarm

11:20

fire kind of flag. Um.

11:22

So you know what

11:24

happened with my evolution in terms of like growing

11:27

and getting my feet you know? Under me

11:30

was I had a buddy who, um,

11:33

she was in my guitar class, and she offered

11:35

to help me make a resume tape, which I had never even

11:37

heard of. I didn't understand. I was like, don't

11:39

I have just have to tell him that I'm about to make partner at a

11:41

big law firm. She's like, no one's going to give a damn

11:44

about that. She was right, don't even wanted

11:46

to see a paper resume. They just wanted to see a tape

11:49

of you on camera delivering

11:52

it can be fake news, but just they just want to see how

11:54

you penetrate the lens. So she helped

11:56

me make it, and and the guy who shot the tape

11:58

for me agreed

12:00

to hook me up with his professor at this local

12:03

college in Chicago, and that

12:05

professor let me audits his journalism

12:08

class. So I went there every

12:10

Wednesday night after I left Jones Day,

12:12

and I was like the old lady at that point,

12:15

I was like one with all

12:17

these you know, twenty nineteen year old I

12:19

was like, isn't learning fun? Kids? You

12:21

know? And and I

12:23

was loving it. I'm learning all about this new profession

12:25

that I'm considering. And we'd have to go down on

12:28

the streets of Chicago. So there I'd be on South Michigan

12:30

Avenue in the blustery cold

12:32

weather at eight pm

12:35

doing fake news reporting into

12:37

this professor's sort of

12:39

real looking TV camera, and

12:42

you couldn't stop. You had to do a minute long report.

12:44

You had to nail it, you know, you couldn't have

12:47

to. You have to treat it like it was a live shot and

12:49

it was thrilling,

12:52

and all I could think was this is

12:54

what I want to do, and

12:57

please God, don't let anyone from Jones Day

13:00

by right now. So

13:03

when do you when do you

13:05

actually confess to the partners

13:07

and the people that you worked for and with

13:09

at Jones Day that you were

13:11

exploring in a serious way journalism,

13:14

Like how far into the process did you get before

13:16

you were like, Hey, this is you know, not guitar lessons

13:19

that I'm just doing on the side. This is something

13:21

that that maybe I have an interest in. So

13:24

I kind of got

13:26

discouraged. There. I was with my resume

13:28

tape, thinking okay, great,

13:31

but I don't have a single connection,

13:33

you know, in news. I don't have anything

13:35

on my resume to suggest I

13:37

could do news. You know. I

13:40

just had that feeling that I'm sure a lot of people

13:42

get, which is just apathy

13:44

and self doubt and you know,

13:46

the desire to stay in my couch. And

13:49

by the way, my therapist always says, the

13:51

desire to stay on one's couch couch should

13:54

always be fought like that retreat

13:57

is that it's almost always

13:59

at And one

14:02

day I was watching Lifetime television, Lifetime

14:04

television play and they

14:07

ran this movie, this you know,

14:09

lifetime movie called the Jessica Savage Story.

14:11

And she was this amazing journalist back in the late

14:14

seventies eighties who was making it in the man's industry,

14:16

one of the only women. She was like Jessica and

14:18

Connie Chung and a young Barbara Walters.

14:20

And that was it, and it was a great story.

14:23

It ended in ruination, sadly, but as

14:26

most lifetime stories do, at least you didn't

14:28

get murdered by her husband, right. But

14:31

I was inspired to try,

14:33

so I started cold calling news directors and

14:36

every single one was like, by you

14:38

know, no one wanted to talk to me. They didn't they

14:40

didn't want to help me. Theyn't want to give me a chance. And

14:42

uh, Finally I got smart and I

14:45

decided to walk my tape into the

14:48

news station in dc um

14:50

W j l A and they had a

14:53

cable channel that was like their sister,

14:55

and I thought, maybe they'll pop me on that

14:57

cable channel that like, not a lot of people are watching.

14:59

I got a shot there and I went in. I met this

15:01

guy, Bill Lord, who was the news director for both

15:04

and God bless that guy. He put me on the

15:06

air. So he started just

15:09

just one day a week, one day a week. And at

15:11

that point I had to disclose to Jones Day that I was doing

15:13

this because hey, they might

15:15

see me and be he could create an ethical

15:18

conflict depending on what I was reporting on UM.

15:22

So he, you know, I sort of said, it's just gonna be

15:24

fun. I just want to try it out. And they

15:26

were a little leary, but said okay, do it.

15:29

And then I was doing pretty well and the Lord

15:31

said, well, how about you do two days a week? So

15:34

I did Saturdays and Sundays and I did the law job

15:36

the other days. And then they

15:38

came to me and said, how about you do another

15:40

day of a week. And that would have required me to go part

15:42

time at Jones Day, and so I

15:44

went. I spoke with a head of general Litigation, a guy

15:47

named Tim Cullen, who was so great,

15:49

and he said, Okay, I'm sad

15:51

because this feels like a trial separation

15:54

and those usually lead to divorce. And

15:57

I said, Tim, you know it very well

15:59

might, but I gotta try.

16:01

So he he let me stay at Jones Day,

16:04

you know, part time. UM. And

16:06

then eventually I decided

16:09

it was time to make a full time leap. All

16:11

right, so your how old? The first time you go

16:13

on air with I think it was w j l

16:15

A. You said, so that

16:17

would have been two thousand three, so I was thirty

16:20

two. Okay, so you've never

16:22

really done television before you're thirty

16:24

two years old. You get to go on this, uh, this relatively

16:26

small station in Washington, d C. What

16:29

did you do the first time that you were on television?

16:32

The very first time I ever saw myself on television,

16:35

it was taped, so I was clear

16:38

like it was a taped piece. But

16:41

what would you remember the time? Do you remember the topic of

16:43

the tape piece? Do you remember what you reported? It

16:45

was the very first thing I ever

16:47

did was on a hurricane, and it

16:49

was Hurricane Isabelle that had gone through Virginia,

16:52

and I thought for sure, I thought I was gonna be doing doing

16:54

mostly legal stuff. Is that that had been my pitch?

16:57

And I remember calling Bill Lord. My

16:59

first day was a Friday, and I was like, probably

17:01

don't need me, right because the storms come in and you

17:03

know you're not gonna need a lawyer, legal

17:06

expert type, And he goes, if you don't already

17:08

have rain boots and rain pants and rains like that, you

17:10

better go get up and get in here, like

17:12

oh no, And so

17:16

it was a crazy night. I did a report on not

17:18

that night, but the next day on the hurricane, and it

17:20

was fine. But the first time I had to do a live

17:22

shot where it's like go, you

17:24

know, like I'd practiced on the streets of Chicago,

17:27

was at the d. It was the

17:29

dullest airport and

17:32

there was something going on with the airport and security

17:34

and they had a scare. You know. It's just back when we were still

17:37

pretty close to nine eleven and there was a scare every

17:39

other day, um,

17:42

and and it was here in the headlights,

17:44

you know, and they're like you can hear the anchor toss

17:46

to you. And really, I'm like, I don't

17:48

know who the hell I am? Who the hell am? I just say

17:50

your name, say something, say something

17:53

resembling anything. And

17:55

I got through it, and I thought I had

17:57

been totally incomprehensible. When I looked

17:59

back at leader, it was okay.

18:02

It wasn't hideous, but it was

18:04

terrifying. Be sure to catch live

18:07

editions about kicked the coverage with Clay Travis

18:09

week days at six am Eastern three am

18:11

Pacific. I'm Clay

18:14

Travis is Wins and Losses. We're talking with Megan

18:16

Kelly. So do you go back, like an

18:18

athlete and study your early tapes

18:20

in television to figure out what you're doing

18:23

well? Or did you find

18:25

that you kind of got a sense for how you were

18:27

doing. What about the

18:29

discipline of television came to you

18:31

and how did you get better? I

18:34

definitely went back and looked at the tapes, and

18:36

I think that's a must do, you know, because

18:38

it is a visual medium and you have to see

18:41

or whatever the mechanism is, listened

18:43

to yourself and see what

18:45

works and what doesn't work. You know, you

18:48

may think you sound fine, when you

18:50

go back and you watch yourself, you see a totally

18:52

different product. So I did that for

18:54

years when I first started, you know, at w

18:56

j l A, and then and then at Fox News. But

18:59

the truth is that is a skill

19:01

you only develop by doing it over

19:04

and over and over. You

19:06

know, It's like typing, and you

19:08

you cannot type seventy words a minute before

19:10

you've done and so on. So

19:13

I would just say yes to everything, which

19:15

I think every young person in a job should do. I

19:17

mean, I I always tell the young

19:20

people who are asking me for advice, you

19:22

know, if they want you to empty the trash, empty the

19:24

trash, like say yes to every

19:26

weekend ship to working on Christmas.

19:29

You know, have some gumption, go after it, you

19:31

know, don't don't be ah, I'm above

19:33

this kind of person. And that leads

19:35

to opportunity, you know, because the sad

19:38

truth is it will set you apart from of

19:41

your competition, um

19:43

so and and and it just happened to be and in

19:45

my profession, as it is in most that that makes

19:47

you better. You know, you get your ten thou hours in and

19:50

before you know it, you're doing it almost

19:53

effortlessly. What

19:55

I have found is, and this is probably

19:57

a legal background as well, what I get to do now

19:59

is make argue months. But instead of having

20:01

to take as you said earlier, sometimes you're on the wrong

20:03

side of an argument. You're like, boy, I'd rather have the

20:05

facts of that other side now,

20:08

you know, with the position that I'm in, And I think

20:10

you get to do this now as well. You get

20:12

to look at all the facts, array them as

20:14

you see fit, and then make your case.

20:17

And as you were talking about your legal

20:19

career, it struck me watch having watched your television

20:21

show. Basically, what you're doing

20:23

is arguing in front of a jury every

20:25

single night about cases

20:27

and stories that matter the most to you

20:30

in a compelling fashion. Right, It's basically

20:32

like an oral argument that you get

20:34

to make every single night when you're doing a live television

20:37

show. Absolutely and

20:39

one of the biggest challenges

20:41

but also rewards if you do it right.

20:44

Of of doing that show in

20:46

that way was taking really

20:48

condensed, really difficult

20:51

subjects and condensing them in a

20:53

way that my imaginary viewer

20:56

that the one I picture in my head, Yes,

20:58

she's working. Who do you picture? By the way, who

21:00

do you picture? Because I I do that for my radio

21:02

show, my television show to an average person

21:04

who's watching, Who in your mind is an average Megan

21:07

Kelly viewer. I have a woman

21:09

in my head named Madge who

21:11

lives in Iowa. She works

21:13

all day, She's got a couple of kids, and

21:15

she and her husband come home from work and at night

21:17

and they turn on the TV. Maybe

21:20

they have a glass of wine and they want to

21:22

consume their news in a way that is

21:24

easy to understand, somewhat

21:26

entertaining, trustworthy,

21:28

and that they don't have to work too hard to get.

21:31

So it's my job to take something

21:34

hugely complex, like a Supreme

21:36

Court ruling on redistricting, and

21:39

try to make Madge not have to

21:41

work for it at all. If Madge

21:44

has to hit the rewind button on the

21:46

remote control, I have failed. It should

21:48

it's I used to call it. It's like cool water

21:50

going over a hot brain. That's how I

21:53

want my news delivery to feel to

21:56

the consumer. And and if you

21:58

have to try too hard on the air, you haven't

22:00

tried hard enough prior to getting to air.

22:03

But I will say, Clay, one of the things I like

22:05

about you and and one of the

22:08

things I think maybe the solution to our entirely

22:10

disgustingly broken media is

22:13

more lawyers delivering

22:15

the news in whatever way

22:18

works for them. Because lawyers, I

22:20

think, in their soul they're programmed

22:23

to understand at least both sides

22:25

and to try in some way to recognize

22:29

the other argument. I do. And I don't know if

22:31

it's just that we're soul as hacks or

22:34

you know, these trained elite arguers.

22:37

The latter sounds better, but whatever it is, most

22:40

lawyers I know, Dan Abrams is

22:42

another they they're really good at

22:44

being fair. I

22:47

don't think there's any doubt at all. I mean, what I always

22:50

say on my show is I care about three things. The facts,

22:52

the facts, the facts. And one of the things that troubles

22:54

me the most about our country today is

22:57

you can disagree with my opinions or your

22:59

opinions or anybody's opinion out there in

23:01

the world of media, or your friends and family posting

23:03

on social media all day, but if

23:06

you start with incorrect facts,

23:08

then you get to a place with an incorrect opinion.

23:11

And so uh, there's a

23:13

lot of people who don't care about the factual

23:15

basis whether you're a Democrat, Republican, independent,

23:18

and it seems like we have lost that, particularly

23:20

in a social media age. And I

23:23

do think lawyers are better attuned

23:25

to being able to consider both sides of an

23:27

issue and at least understand

23:29

the importance of facts, because what you're talking about

23:32

is basically the skills of a great trial lawyer.

23:34

And a great trial lawyer can take facts

23:37

which are honest and accurate and

23:39

put the best spin possible on them

23:41

to advocate for the cause they believe in.

23:43

But they know that the facts have to be right,

23:46

or the jury is not going to trust them right face to

23:48

face. It seems to me we've lost

23:50

the ability to recognize the

23:52

foundational basis of fact. It's

23:55

one of the things that is most disturbing

23:57

me and most inspiring me to get back out

24:00

there, because both sides

24:02

do it right. You know, President

24:04

Trump, I always say

24:06

he doesn't. He doesn't have an adult relationship

24:09

with the truth. You know. I think all of his

24:11

years in real estate, UM

24:13

sort of led him to tolerate a certain

24:15

level of you know, puffery.

24:17

We would have called it in the law UM. And

24:20

so he is, I think, by nature

24:22

and optimists who tries to oversell

24:24

positive outcomes. But

24:26

he also if he gets himself in trouble, he's

24:28

not just gonna level with you about what he did and

24:31

why it wasn't a big deal. He's going to try to tell you the facts

24:33

are other than what they are. That's a character

24:35

trait that he has, for better or for worse. But

24:38

on the left, you see like

24:41

a post factual world when it comes

24:43

to discussions on tough subjects, you

24:45

know, like the transgender

24:47

issue and the gender issue in general.

24:49

You know that there's there's no more biological

24:52

sex and that you know, having

24:55

having certain genitalia is totally

24:57

irrelevant to whether you're a

24:59

woman or a man. I

25:01

don't believe that's true. Scientifically,

25:04

we can talk about what your life

25:06

is like and how you want to be accepted, and I'm

25:09

totally pro all of that, but there

25:11

is a basis in science, and I don't

25:13

like the silencing of the scientific

25:15

community or even in the you know, all

25:18

the Black Lives Matter protests that we saw this summer.

25:21

You know, you can want to be an advocate

25:24

against racism without making

25:26

up lies about the police.

25:29

Uh. And I'm not talking about George Floyd, but I'm

25:31

talking about the lives that were

25:33

put out there about the number

25:36

of cases of police brutality, but

25:38

police killings of black men,

25:41

there are real data on that, and they've

25:43

been they've been either

25:46

suppressed their silenced. In fact, I've represented,

25:49

I've got it right here. I mean that that I keep

25:51

because it's been such a big topic in the world

25:53

of sports. Um, you know, a police

25:56

officer is seventeen

25:58

times seventeen and a half time as

26:00

likely to be killed by

26:02

a black potential suspect as

26:05

a police officer is to kill an

26:08

unarmed black man in this country. Right, that's

26:10

a fact. I'm reading directly from

26:12

the Wall Street Journal. The data is

26:14

clear and transparent and straightforward. That

26:16

is factual basis. Now we can talk once we

26:19

have those facts in place about ways

26:21

to make the country better based on our

26:23

relationship between police and

26:25

those that they consider suspects of crimes,

26:28

whatever race. They might be right to try to dial

26:30

down the tension, but it's

26:32

as if that fact makes people

26:34

uncomfortable, and so you can't even

26:37

have an honest conversation about how to fix

26:39

things if you can't begin with a

26:41

common basis effect. That's

26:43

right, because they'll call you a racist,

26:46

and no one wants to be called a racist. And

26:48

and it's it's sad because

26:51

book, I'm sort of a free agent now, right,

26:53

so it's like I don't really care what they call me, and they've

26:55

already called me all the me memes that I'm doing just fine.

26:58

But I do worry about civilians,

27:01

right, for lack of a better term, because they

27:03

don't want to put themselves out there. I've got

27:05

good friends who are you know, they're successful

27:07

doctors and lawyers, and they

27:09

can't even like a tweet without having

27:11

to worry about. And

27:14

that's not okay. You know that the data

27:17

on police shootings or killings

27:20

of black suspects are knowable.

27:22

They are knowable. It's not a perfect

27:25

science, but they have been reported for years.

27:27

The Washington Post has been keeping running tally of it

27:29

all. And for

27:31

some reason, and you know, people can draw their

27:34

own conclusions, these activists

27:36

want us only to look at the percentage

27:39

of black people in the

27:41

population, which tends to be around and

27:44

then look at the number of black people who

27:46

are killed by police in a year, and that's

27:48

just not the relevant

27:51

data. They don't want you to factor

27:53

in at all the level of black

27:56

criminality, and that The

27:58

Wall Street Journal has been doing a great job and reporting the savas

28:01

on this, but over the violent

28:03

crimes in the major cities of this country

28:05

are committed by black men. Now,

28:07

the cops are not they're

28:09

they're not arresting women if

28:11

that doesn't make them sexist against men.

28:14

They're going after the people who

28:16

are committing the crime, and so necessarily

28:19

the interactions between those guys

28:21

and polices they're going to go up. And

28:24

they're fraught because if you resist

28:27

arrest, and the data show that that's what's happened

28:29

in virtually all these cases where a

28:31

death results, your odds

28:33

of getting injured or killed by the police officers

28:36

go up exponentially. That's

28:38

an argument that is all factual based,

28:41

Right. I think it's an important one that needs to be discussed

28:43

in the country. You couldn't say that on CNN

28:45

today. You couldn't say that today on MSNBC.

28:48

Right, I really don't think you could. Why

28:52

do you think and you worked and had

28:54

your own show, and you did had a tremendous

28:56

success at Fox News. Why do

28:58

you think our society, media

29:01

culture has created this

29:03

world where there are facts that aren't

29:05

allowed to be spoken on television

29:08

on certain networks, and by the way, you can

29:10

make it across the board, right there facts

29:12

probably that make Fox News viewers uncomfortable

29:15

that don't get shared very often. We don't

29:17

have a Walter Cronkite of the world who's

29:19

sitting down and kind of the arbiter that everybody

29:22

trust to be a great

29:24

official, so to speak, of the world at

29:26

large. How do we put the genie back in

29:28

the bottle? Can we are things going to even

29:30

get worse from here? Boy?

29:34

I mean, I think with what's happening with this sort

29:36

of woke culture. Um, you know,

29:38

the social justice warriors. It's going to be

29:40

tough there. There that's a small group

29:42

of Americans. They do not represent the majority

29:45

in trying to cancel everybody and shut everybody

29:47

up. But they're really loud, and

29:49

the media is they're

29:52

in complete fealty to that small

29:54

group. Um. And so it's

29:57

dangerous. And I'll tell you most

29:59

they're are. There are so many intellectuals

30:02

black end white, but a lot of black intellectuals

30:04

who are sort of pushing a more heterodox

30:07

view, you know, from Glenn Lowry to Coleman Hughes

30:09

obviously, um, Shelby Steele, Thomas

30:12

Soul. But so you can read black

30:14

intellectuals who have done all the research on

30:17

this um and see what their worldview

30:19

is. It would it would back up everything I just

30:21

said. Right, go look at read Jason Riley

30:23

in the Wall Street Journal if you want to know the facts. Um.

30:26

But if a white person says it, they're going to call

30:28

you a racist. So you just you know, to really know

30:30

what's going on, you have to actually be prepared

30:33

to take some you know, some some punches

30:35

in their face. But I think what's happened

30:37

with the media is they're left

30:39

They're not just liberal, they're leftist, and

30:43

they love to virtue

30:45

signal. You know, early on in my career,

30:48

I got sent down to cover the Duke what we

30:50

now know is the fake rape case with a cross

30:53

case. Yes, and uh,

30:55

I went out. When I first heard about that case, I was

30:58

new to Fox. It was like two thousand five, and

31:01

I at the time, it's thirty four, so I

31:03

was whatever, not that far out of college.

31:06

And I was like, these guys they probably did it,

31:08

you know, like action the cross

31:10

players, and you know, you

31:13

had you had preconceived stereotypes

31:15

as a you know, girl who had gone to Syracuse.

31:17

You're like, oh, I can see these stupid lacrosse guys

31:20

doing something like this, by

31:23

the way, everybody does. And

31:25

then one of the great things about being a lawyer is

31:28

you end up representing people that you're like, man,

31:30

this guy seems like a total jerk, and then you

31:32

start to look at the facts and you're like, man, maybe

31:35

this is not very similar at all to what was initially

31:37

reported. So that's fast. So you go down to Duke,

31:39

and when do you start to have doubts

31:41

about that case as a lawyer,

31:44

and you start to look at it because you're in a unique position

31:46

there. Well, i'll tell you the first thing I happened

31:48

before I left for North Carolina was britt Hume,

31:51

my boss and the DC Bureau said, um,

31:54

keep an open mind. And it was just

31:56

the small piece of advice, but it was the best advice,

31:58

right because it just a good reminder

32:01

that it really isn't about what I

32:03

think, It's about where the facts lead. And

32:05

I'm going down there in a fact finding mission. So

32:09

that's what I did. And I went down and Fox

32:11

gave me the you know, latitude

32:13

to develop sources. Normally they just have each other to

32:15

a camera. We have to do live shot every half hour

32:18

on a big story like that. But they sent a

32:20

different report to to do that so I could actually

32:22

develop sax. And it

32:24

was very clear if you just had an open mind,

32:27

the facts did not support this woman delegations.

32:30

Her story started to fall apart very early,

32:33

and I reported those

32:35

inconsistencies in her story and so on,

32:38

and at the time, this is very early

32:40

in my career, people were suggesting it

32:43

was racist of me and each sexist

32:45

of me to be

32:47

quote siding with these three

32:49

white privileged guys instead

32:52

of this uh, single

32:54

mother, black um

32:57

person who lived on sort of the Durham

32:59

side as opposed to the Duke's side. You know, it's like that

33:01

there's two areas of Durham one's one's

33:04

less affluent than the other. And

33:06

uh, I just had to forge through that.

33:08

You just had to say, Okay, they're

33:10

gonna call me names, but I have to report the news.

33:13

That's what I made me paid to do. And

33:15

you know who the other person was who was

33:17

getting the facts right, who was on cable

33:20

news at that time, Dan Abrams,

33:22

who I mentioned earlier, a lawyer who

33:24

came to MSNBC at the time from

33:27

Court TV. And his dad is Floyd Abrams,

33:29

the famed First Amendment attorney

33:31

who argued New York Times to be solid it. So

33:34

I just think, you know, being open minds of the

33:36

facts helped me land in the right place and

33:38

on these cop shootings.

33:41

Um that you just have to

33:43

be open minded. You have to be open

33:46

minded and go where the evidence goes. You

33:48

know, the Michael Brown case in Ferguson,

33:51

you know people should go that. Kamala Harris

33:54

and others are still referring to Michael Brown as a

33:56

victim, that she's murdered, that

33:58

he was murdered. He was not murdered.

34:01

And there were at least five black

34:04

eyewitnesses who said they

34:06

saw him turn and run after the

34:08

officer when the officer, you

34:11

know, was already had already been attacked, hands up,

34:13

don't shoot. A proven

34:15

law. Yet it contends to be continues to be propagated

34:18

well, And that's so that's what we

34:21

have to be aware of now that the media is in full

34:23

virtue signaling mode, because

34:26

what I've noticed with

34:28

with these cases is the media,

34:30

which again is leftist, it's not just liberal, it's

34:33

leftist. They will take these

34:35

incendiary cases, these videos of

34:37

of a white police officer, or even if of a

34:39

black police officer, and they'll say that's

34:41

racist too, if it's if it's a black defendant, and

34:44

they'll say they'll play it over

34:46

and over, over and over and over to tell you that all

34:49

police are brutal, and all police

34:51

are racist, and it's systemically racist,

34:54

and it's so misrepresentative

34:56

because you could do the same with

34:58

a white police officer. They're doing this

35:01

to a white defendant, and that that doesn't

35:03

mean that all police need to be stopped because they must

35:05

be brutal against everybody either. Because

35:07

if you look at the numbers of police

35:10

killings of defendants

35:12

here in New York City, they in the seventies,

35:14

they were in the four hundreds a year. Now they're down to thirty

35:17

plus in a year. The police are going in the

35:19

right direction on this stuff. They're aware that

35:21

they've had problems. But when

35:24

it comes to race, it's the media

35:27

that drives the narrative that it's

35:29

a black white thing, and

35:31

they do that for reasons of their own, especially in

35:33

an election year you mentioned

35:35

earlier. So you're covering Duke Lacrosse

35:37

in two thousand five, that is before there

35:40

is actually a social media

35:42

universe really, I mean Facebook is just getting

35:44

started, then Twitter doesn't exist. That

35:46

has put, you know, sort of jet fuel or

35:49

added steroids to what was already

35:51

a trend line moving in that direction

35:54

of everybody being able to find

35:56

their own worldview by turning on their television

35:58

or just picking up their phone. Uh, what

36:01

was it like for you? I'm curious

36:03

as you move up in the world to

36:06

go from Megan Kelly, who's

36:08

a reporter, right, like you're not necessarily

36:11

giving your own opinions to making

36:13

that transition to an opinionist,

36:15

and how did you do it? Well?

36:18

I mean, I think I'm sort of a hybrid. You know.

36:20

I'm still a journalist and that's

36:22

why I was out there angering presidential debates

36:25

for Fox. UM. But

36:27

I've I've offered opinion in the fields

36:29

that I think I have some expertise in, and

36:31

that's tended to be legal stuff, you know.

36:33

And I think this whole Black Lives Matter

36:36

thing started based on a legal

36:38

case, and I know how to

36:40

look at a legal case, and I've never gotten

36:42

one wrong. I've never looked at one of these situations

36:45

and said this is how it's going to come out and been

36:47

proven wrong on it. And there's a reason

36:49

for that, you know. I'm I'm an objective juror

36:53

on this stuff. I will go where the evidence

36:55

takes me. Um. So that's

36:57

sort of what I've tried to do. I've tried to sort

36:59

of hold on to my journalistic integrity. You

37:01

know, I'm not somebody who would go out there. I watched

37:03

somebody like Nicole Wallace on the MSNBC. I

37:06

don't know what she is. She used to work, She's

37:09

a work in Republican circle. She's as far from

37:11

Republican as you can get now, and

37:13

she's openly saying she's hosting a daytime quote

37:15

news show on MSNBC, but she openly

37:17

says she's going to vote

37:19

for Joe Biden. So back

37:22

in my day, you weren't supposed to do that as a journalist.

37:24

You we didn't announce who

37:26

you're going to vote for. You didn't announce whether your pro

37:28

choice or pro life. And I wouldn't

37:30

touch those rails either. But I

37:33

do feel very comfortable correcting the record,

37:35

even on dicey issues. What

37:38

you mentioned the Donald Trump, the debate

37:41

that you did, which I thought was fantastic and so

37:43

well managed, but it obviously turned

37:46

your life upside down. What

37:49

is your relationship like now,

37:51

if at all, with President Trump?

37:53

Have you had any interaction with the White House

37:56

since? And how did you find

37:58

him both as a private in a public

38:00

figure. How much overlap was

38:03

there in the way he would behave privately

38:05

versus the way he behaved publicly. So

38:08

privately, I before

38:10

the debate and even ultimately

38:13

after the debate have found

38:15

him utterly charming. You

38:18

know, you might be surprised utterly charming

38:21

generous, self deprecating, effusive,

38:24

and kind, complementary.

38:26

Um, I had nothing but kind

38:29

feelings toward him, and and I

38:31

still have kind feelings toward him. I

38:33

don't like what he did towards me for those

38:35

nine months, and I don't love the way

38:37

he talks about you know, some of my

38:39

fellow citizens these days. You know, he's not careful

38:42

with his language and it can be problematic.

38:45

UM. And I see the flaws that people accuse

38:48

him off. There's no question he can be thin skinned and so on.

38:50

We all have our problems and

38:52

his are magnified because he's the president. But professionally,

38:57

we went through a very tough period together

39:00

for those nine months. Wasn't tough for him, It was tough

39:02

for me, and I hated

39:04

it it was. It was really

39:07

just one of the most challenging things I've been through professionally,

39:09

and it was one of those

39:11

things that sort of there's probably a lesson in it, because

39:14

you know, I asked tough questions of all the guys that

39:17

night. The only difference was Trump wouldn't

39:19

let it go. You know, he made a thing out of it and

39:21

wouldn't let it go. And

39:23

ultimately I couldn't get him off my back. You

39:25

know, Roger L's tried and Sean

39:28

Hannity tried for me, and he was tight with Trump.

39:30

He just he just wouldn't he wouldn't

39:32

back off. He was I think he was enjoying the storyline.

39:36

And so finally the lesson is it

39:38

only stopped when I took it in hand

39:40

myself and I

39:43

contacted him through a friend. It was actually

39:45

Brian kilmead Um who

39:47

got a message to him that I wanted to meet

39:49

with him. And you know, Roger Leader said,

39:51

you should have met on neutral ground, you should have gone a Trump

39:53

tower. I was like, Roger, I don't care.

39:56

I don't care if it looks like I'm pursuing

39:59

him or I'm an aspect dary Well I am.

40:01

I'm a journalist. The nature of our relationship

40:04

is, you know, pursuer and pursued.

40:07

And so we met

40:09

and I basically,

40:12

I mean the conversation was off the record, but the bottom

40:14

line is I said, please knock it off.

40:16

You know you've done You've done this long enough.

40:19

You made your point. Um, I want

40:21

you to put me back on the sidelines where I belong, you belong

40:23

in the playing field. And I belong on the sidelines.

40:26

Put me back there. No harm done

40:28

and he was totally gracious about it, and

40:31

we've never had a problem since. Fox

40:33

Sports Radio has the best sports talk

40:35

lineup in the nation. Catch all of our

40:37

shows at Fox sports Radio dot

40:39

com and within the I Heart Radio

40:41

app search f s R to listen

40:44

live. You said earlier

40:46

in our conversation, I'm Clay Travis. This is wins and

40:48

losses. We're talking with Meg and Kelly. Retreat

40:51

is almost always bad. You

40:53

left Fox for NBC. Obviously

40:56

that didn't work out. Maybe it did because

40:58

maybe you're happy where you are now. If

41:01

you were going back, would you say, hey, I should

41:03

have stated Fox, I could have kept doing that show.

41:06

Or was leaving Fox like

41:08

leaving the practice of law for you? You

41:10

You felt like you had done everything you

41:12

could there and you were ready for another

41:14

new challenge. And how would you say

41:16

to people out there who were, you know, trying to weigh

41:18

decisions that they make in their own career,

41:21

how did you make that choice? And looking

41:23

back on it, would you change anything? It's

41:27

so smart, Clay, this is this is why you're doing so well.

41:30

Um. That's a great question, and it the

41:33

answer is it was the latter. Um,

41:35

it was. You

41:37

know, I don't

41:39

regret leaving Fox at all. I kind of missed

41:42

my old show because I think it was a service.

41:44

I think it was an honest show that

41:46

you could trust. And if

41:49

The Kelly File we're still on now, I would

41:51

watch it, you know. And it's one of the reasons

41:53

why I'm I'm launching this podcast, you know, because

41:55

I do want to get back to doing the news in a way

41:57

that I think is fair and illuminating and

41:59

hopefully yeerless. Um. But

42:01

I don't regret the decision to leave, because

42:04

it was just a combination of things. It had been a

42:06

rough time with Trump, yes, but that was in the past.

42:10

But you know, the Roger Ail thing changed

42:12

my life a lot at Fox. And

42:15

even when it came out that, you know, he really

42:18

did have this side of him that

42:20

was really problematic. Um,

42:23

people found it tough to forgive, you

42:26

know, not everybody, but you know,

42:28

I have dear, dear friends there. Some of my best friends

42:30

are there. But some people who I really

42:32

loved and admired just never got over

42:34

it. You know that I they thought I had turned on him

42:36

because I didn't support him.

42:38

And you know you I couldn't explain it any

42:41

better than you know I had publicly.

42:44

You know, it's I too felt loyal

42:46

to Roger and grateful to him for what he'd

42:49

done for me over the course of my career. But when

42:51

faced with the direct question about whether

42:54

he was capable of doing this two

42:56

women or not, there

42:59

was no way I was gonna lie. There's just there's

43:02

just no way I was going to do it. So my

43:04

life changed a lot there. The dynamic changed.

43:07

And while it was changing, um,

43:11

my life was explosive. It

43:13

was you talked about acrimony. You know, I

43:15

left a lot because it was too many hours and it was too

43:17

acrimonious. Put

43:20

that on steroids for my

43:22

time in cable news prime time. Um,

43:26

you know O'Reilly told me before I joined

43:28

the prime time lineup that he said it's

43:30

a snake pit, and it

43:32

got it. I've

43:35

never been told something more true. And

43:37

so every time somebody would come

43:39

after me, there was somebody in the press or another

43:42

journalist or Trump or whoever, it would

43:44

lead to another crisis meeting. You know, the

43:46

Trump thing had led to armed guards

43:48

in my life, people showing up

43:50

at my apartment. It was dangerous and

43:52

we lived like that for nine months. So

43:55

I was weary, you know. And at the

43:57

same time, I had three young kids

43:59

at the time, they were seven, five, and three,

44:02

and I missed them.

44:05

I missed mothering.

44:08

And I remember talking my therapist about at the time

44:11

and he said, you know, he

44:14

said, look at Chelsea Clinton. She

44:17

had two parents who were incredibly busy,

44:19

you know, they weren't there with her every day. She

44:22

turned out just fine. And

44:24

I said, I'm not worried about my kids turning

44:26

out fine. I'm worried about

44:28

missing it. I'm missing

44:31

the whole thing. I

44:33

don't see them anymore. I don't see them

44:35

Monday through Friday because of these hours. You know,

44:37

I go to work before they get home from school

44:39

now, and what I'm doing

44:41

isn't good enough. So I just

44:44

there were a lot of tears that year. There was

44:46

so much stress, and my life

44:48

was was totally joyless.

44:51

And I thought, once again, despite the fact

44:53

that I was making a lot of money and offered

44:56

a lot of money to stay and had a position

44:58

of influence, it

45:00

was irrelevant to me. I was

45:02

running and it wasn't running to NBC,

45:05

but I was just running to a different lifestyle

45:08

and the reason I went to NBC over

45:10

anybody else, So simply I thought I

45:12

could do this morning show that would

45:14

let me then get home to my kids. I could still do

45:17

the news and get home to my kids.

45:20

And you know, that obviously did not work

45:22

out, and I wasn't well thought out on my part

45:24

either, But it was a good move

45:26

to get out and I did exercise some

45:29

new muscles there and I got to interview Vladimir

45:31

Putin, which is cool. Um,

45:33

So it wasn't all bad. And and the bottom

45:35

line is now in I

45:39

am totally engaged with my kids, with

45:42

my husband, with my personal life, tight friendships

45:44

now with my friends that had gone unnurtured.

45:47

I feel well, I feel

45:49

healthy, I feel happy, you know, as happy

45:52

as an Irish Catholic living in New York and b And

45:54

there's a lot of a lot of things going against me, um

45:57

um. And I don't regret

45:59

it from it. I don't regret for one minute. One

46:02

of the things that I think is fascinating about becoming

46:04

a public figure, and obviously you did that

46:07

leaving the law, which is a serious job

46:09

and it's filled with acrimony, but most of the time you're

46:11

not gonna wake up in the morning and people aren't

46:13

going to be mentioning your name or having a strong

46:15

opinion about you. Is lots

46:18

of people that you don't know at all and you'll

46:20

never be able to interact with suddenly

46:22

have such strong opinions

46:25

about you. And I find that transition

46:27

to be utterly fascinating. I've

46:29

certainly seen it in my life. And I was talking with

46:31

my wife the other day and she was like, what percentage

46:33

of the American public do you think has a positive view

46:35

of you? And I was like thirty and

46:38

she was like really, And I was like, well, I

46:40

mean the media. I'm in the media. I'm in the opinion

46:42

business. I was like, a lot of people like

46:44

me, but a probably more people dislike me because

46:46

they have kind of a you know, caricatured

46:49

version of me because they've heard opinion they

46:51

don't like and they think about that. And I said,

46:53

but the really, the truth is, and I'm brought to this

46:55

because of what you just mentioned, your three young kids. I've

46:57

got a twelve year old, a ten year old, and a six year old.

47:00

And I said, really, the only thing I care is

47:02

what people in my house think about

47:04

me, because they know me, and then secondarily

47:07

people that are close to me and my family, and then

47:09

people that I work with on a daily basis.

47:12

I really don't care outside of that,

47:14

but I'm curious for you and I and my wife

47:16

says like that's my superpower. I just

47:19

genuinely don't care what people I don't

47:21

know think about me. But

47:23

I wonder if that's true for you and

47:25

what it was like to suddenly go from

47:28

I would say you got generally favorable

47:30

pressed with the Kelly File too

47:32

suddenly, and you may disagree with that,

47:34

but it seemed generally favorable. It's at

47:36

least as favorable as somebody who's working at Fox

47:38

News can get to. Suddenly you

47:41

are just getting attacked on all angles

47:43

by everyone, and it's like

47:46

that had to be wild. What does that experience

47:48

like to be in the center of the storm like

47:50

you were and still are to a

47:52

certain extent, but certainly then you really

47:55

were well. I mean, that was

47:57

very stressful, like being

47:59

misread, resented day after day. It felt

48:01

like every word I said turned

48:04

into a ridiculous controversy

48:06

not supported by the facts, and

48:10

you know, there's only so much you can do about that. I've

48:12

I've always sort of been of the belief that you

48:14

just have to let that go because you can't

48:16

control what the media is going to do and say about

48:18

you or what people think of

48:21

you. Um. But when it

48:23

comes in every other day over the

48:25

course of you know, more than a year, it's

48:28

it's hard. I'm not gonna lie, it was. It was

48:30

tough on me emotionally. Um.

48:34

I think in general, in general, I'm

48:36

of the belief that you know, life in the public

48:38

square, if you're doing it right, means loved

48:40

hate, It never ignored, you know, like you

48:43

just have to resign to that that you'll

48:45

all have people, you know, scoff

48:47

at me as I walk down the street and I but I'll have

48:49

far more people come over and want to hug me and

48:52

coll me. They love me, and my kids

48:54

see both sides, you know. They they're Even

48:56

my little guy, who's now seven, he

48:59

gets it. You know, he'll see something a

49:01

picture of me on the tabloid or whatever, and

49:03

I'll say, oh, honey, you know, there's lots

49:05

of lies about mommy out there, and

49:07

he'll say, well, why don't why don't you correct them?

49:10

And I'm like, because there's no need

49:12

the people who believe that stuff want to

49:14

believe it, and the people who don't believe

49:17

it don't need to be persuaded. You know, my fans

49:19

know who I am and they

49:21

don't believe the nonsense. And the other people,

49:24

in my experience have been very agenda driven.

49:26

They're they're in a different kind of bubble. There's

49:29

really no point um in

49:31

fighting those fights, so you kind of have to surrender

49:33

to it if you're gonna put yourself out there is a public

49:35

figure. Why the

49:37

podcast? You are starting a new

49:39

podcast? We have a lot of people that you're

49:41

working with who I know are super smart on the

49:43

business side, and I think you've chosen well

49:46

there. But why this particular

49:48

way to reach your audience. Well,

49:51

I really wanted to be independent, meaning

49:54

not have a corporate sponsor

49:57

above me controlling everything. I didn't set

49:59

you know, but old media, if you will, because

50:02

there are pressures. There are pressures to cover the

50:04

news in a certain way, to not say

50:06

certain things, um, and I just

50:09

don't want to live like that anymore. I'm at a point

50:11

in my life where I don't want to

50:13

do that, and I think we're at

50:15

a point in our country where we need more

50:17

free agents who are just ready

50:19

to say what's true, no matter what slings

50:21

and arrows right, no matter what slings and arrows

50:24

come. And I'm in a position to do

50:26

it now. You know, It's like I've been

50:28

at ABC, I've been at NBC, I've been at Fox.

50:31

UM, I've done a lot of things, and

50:33

I'm ready to just be in control of my own little

50:35

empire. And and honestly, if we start

50:38

with ten listeners, great, maybe

50:40

the next week we'll have twelve, and over time

50:43

I will build up my relationship

50:45

again with my audience, who I do believe

50:47

is there. I know how they feel.

50:49

I know there are strong people out

50:51

there who don't believe in these nonsense safe spaces,

50:54

who really want to have challenging conversations,

50:56

who are way tougher than you know,

50:59

these media people give them credit for. You

51:01

know, those are the people I'm going after and

51:04

there it's great because they have more and more options

51:06

in podcasting. I think

51:08

my voice will be additive to the ones that are already

51:10

out there, and hopefully people remember

51:13

that I do the news. I bring the news in a way that's

51:16

user friendly. UM. But for

51:18

me, it just made perfect sense because I wouldn't

51:20

have a corporate master. Um, I could.

51:23

I could do things the way I wanted to. And I genuinely

51:25

believe that this is the future, and

51:27

that you know, television news is dying,

51:30

it's yesterday. Digital as the future,

51:32

and so this is where should place your bet.

51:35

I've got two quick questions for you, because I know you're

51:37

busy, um, and then I've got a broad question

51:39

for you at the end, if we can run through really quick

51:42

because I jotted down, Um,

51:44

in general, did you watch Bombshell?

51:47

And if so, what's it like to have someone

51:49

as talented as Charlie's her own

51:52

playing you? Like most people you know jokingly

51:54

kind of say, I think Wolf Blitzer.

51:57

Somebody was like, hey, if somebody played you in a movie, who

51:59

would owe is der Fauci. He was like, who would

52:01

you want? And he was like Brad Pitt and everybody kind

52:03

of laughs. Charlie Starone

52:05

played you. And if you were like a

52:07

normal you know, woman sitting out there, and You're

52:09

like, any woman can play you in a movie.

52:12

A lot of women, especially around

52:14

your your age, my wife's age, you'd be like, oh, I

52:16

would love to have Charlie's throne. So did you watch

52:18

it, and what is it like to have somebody

52:21

that accomplished inhabiting you

52:23

in some way. I

52:25

did watch it. I wasn't sure if I was going to

52:27

watch it because I had nothing

52:30

to do with it, and I was concerned

52:32

that it was going to be a hit piece

52:35

either. I don't know either

52:37

about me or my friends at Fox. You

52:39

know, I still love Fox.

52:42

I still have a lot of

52:44

good memories there, and I just I just knew

52:46

they'd probably turn it into a parody of

52:48

people who I really care about. Um

52:50

And to some extent they did, and I really hated what they

52:52

did to Brian kill me in that movie, just as one

52:54

example. UM. But

52:57

I did ultimately watch it, and I

53:00

up actually doing a piece with some of the women

53:02

who were portrayed in there, whose stories were portrayed, and I posted

53:04

it on on my YouTube channel.

53:06

If you want to go look it up. It's actually

53:08

really good. I think the women were very open

53:11

about their experience at Falks. But

53:13

look, it was surreal and it was incredibly

53:16

emotional. I didn't expect it to be quite that emotional,

53:18

you know that I'd have tears running down my face in certain

53:21

certain scenes, you know, whenever they showed

53:23

my kids on the screen. Even

53:26

now, even telling you about it, it chokes

53:28

me up. I get that thing in my throat, you

53:31

know, because it was tough for them

53:33

too, like the whole couple of years, Trump

53:35

and nails and all that. Um

53:38

it just brought back a lot of painful memories. And

53:40

of course I'm thinking to myself, there's a reason

53:42

I repressed all of this. Imagine

53:46

taking one of the most difficult years or two of

53:48

your life and been seeing it on the big

53:50

screen. You know, Red Back performed

53:52

back for you. Um So

53:55

it was traumatic in some ways, but

53:57

overall I felt, you know, the movie was a force

53:59

for good. Is it did help hina light on sexual

54:02

harassment and how how it usually goes down and

54:04

how tricky it is to navigate.

54:07

Um So I'm in favor of that. And you know,

54:10

I thought Jay Roach, the guy who directed

54:12

it made it happen, was a terrific guy.

54:15

So as a part of that,

54:17

the Me too movement sexual harassment,

54:19

I think, and this kind of ties in with the Duke Lacrosse

54:22

in many ways. The Brett Kavanaugh

54:25

hearing, and I don't know that I've heard you talk a

54:27

ton about this, but it fired

54:30

me up in a really big way as

54:32

a lawyer, because it

54:34

was to me, it was like Duke Lacrosse, except

54:36

in the Senate Judiciary Committee. I

54:39

don't know what you think about Brett Kavanaugh. I don't know if

54:41

you've ever met him before, but when

54:43

you looked at all the evidence there, it

54:45

to me was so transparent that

54:48

that was a attempt

54:50

to get him without the goods,

54:52

so to speak. If you're a lawyer, you look at all

54:54

the facts and everything else. And

54:57

what started as something that I think is very

55:00

reasonable, me too, moved

55:02

to believe all women, which

55:05

is fundamentally anti everything

55:07

lawyers are taught. Right if we went to law school

55:09

and they said, oh, you have to believe the white

55:11

person, well that's everything that was wrong

55:14

with the Jim Crow South and everything before

55:16

then. And the same thing, to me is true

55:18

of believe all women, or believe all

55:20

Hispanics are all agents, or the only

55:22

thing that matters is the facts. Where you is troubled

55:25

by the evolution and how quickly it

55:27

moved from what may well have been

55:30

occurring at Fox News with Roger Ailes

55:32

and many other people in media having to deal with

55:34

sexual harassment to something

55:36

with Brett Kavanaugh, which is fundamentally

55:38

not that. It seemed to me it was an awkward

55:41

high school encounter even if it ever occurred

55:44

that I think almost everyone who's ever been sixteen

55:46

or seventeen has experienced, and I don't

55:48

even believe it happened. But even if you accept

55:50

the allegation on its face, as lawyers

55:52

often do or judges do, there was no

55:55

basis to it. So

55:58

I too felt deeply affect did

56:00

by what happened in that case, and

56:02

was disgusted by the allegations

56:05

that were thrown at Brett Kavanaugh with zero,

56:08

zero, credible supporting evidence. In the case

56:10

of especially these later ones who came

56:12

forward, Um, we can talk about Blasi

56:14

for because I put her in a different category. But yes,

56:17

you go back and take a look at some of my coverage on NBC.

56:20

There were articles written up about it because

56:22

let's just say, I was the lone voice defending

56:24

Brett Cavanaugh and just holding people to

56:27

account it. There was a guy named Jacob Jacob sober

56:29

Off who came on my show and said

56:31

he's now been subjected to five allegations

56:34

of sexual assaults. I said, hold

56:37

on, that's not true, and

56:39

we went through and of course I had it at the ready because

56:41

as all lawyers do about exactly what had been

56:43

alleged. And you know, creepy poorn lawyer,

56:45

as Tucker would say, Michael Avanadi's client,

56:48

who was the worst of all of them? Um,

56:51

and then and then there was the one that he was counting in

56:53

there, which was the mother

56:55

of some woman who may have been Brett Cavanaugh's

56:58

girlfriend at some point, remember, is

57:00

her daughter saying he drew her against the wall. And

57:02

the NBC published

57:04

that account. Oh

57:07

my god. And by the way, the the actual

57:09

daughter, the actual girlfriend later came out and said, that's

57:12

that didn't happen. So if

57:14

somebody had bothered to check with me, you might

57:16

not have gone out on that limb. But this is

57:18

this is how the news works. So you've

57:20

got this guy, Jacob Soberrock

57:23

out there saying five allegations of credible assault.

57:25

Are you kidding me? So? Yeah,

57:27

Even while I was NBC on NBC, I was,

57:30

I was outraged about what was being done to him.

57:32

I think the blade before thing is

57:35

it's not egregious for the media to report on that,

57:37

and the facts on that deserve to

57:39

be heard. Her testimonial.

57:42

I was fine with her offering that testimonial.

57:44

My own, you know, personal take

57:46

as a lawyer on what probably happened

57:48

there was you know, the concept in the law of the eggshell

57:51

plaintiffs. Yes, and

57:53

it's basically, you know, some people are I

57:56

don't want to say that the weaker is not the word I'm looking

57:59

for, but no, that the

58:01

people are out there who are not aware of it, like

58:04

the thin skull. Like if you

58:07

accidentally hit somebody who has a thin

58:09

skull, it's a it's a concept and a plaintiff

58:11

law, you're responsible for what happens

58:13

to them, but they can be impacted

58:15

in a way that would not happen to the average

58:17

person. Does that make sense like for people I'm trying

58:20

to say, until way for people to understand it, that's

58:23

exactly right. So you know, you sort of you

58:25

don't know who you're gonna hit, who

58:27

you're dealing negligently hit the softball.

58:30

You don't know how tough their skull is going to be.

58:32

And my impression of her was she was a very

58:34

fragile person who seemed

58:38

very very nervous,

58:41

very um

58:44

maybe slightly not all together

58:47

and U and so My impression

58:49

was, this is a girl who may have had some sort

58:52

of an interaction with the young Brett Havanaugh, and

58:54

in her world it was something

58:57

significant. In his world it was

58:59

enoughing, and in the average woman's

59:01

world it was it might have been nothing. And

59:04

because I just I have a hard time believing she

59:06

just totally made it up for political purposes

59:08

to to kill the guy. Though I've seen that

59:10

happen, I have definitely I don't rule that

59:12

out, um, but I think

59:15

to come with it thirty years later and

59:17

expect this guy who's had a stellar record

59:19

on the bench, not a whiff of problematic

59:22

reports while he's been on the federal bench. In fact,

59:24

to the contrary, so many female character witnesses,

59:26

young girls, old women, talking about would

59:29

an advocate he's been so nothing,

59:31

nothing credible at all. Um.

59:34

Is was really unfair because the guy there

59:36

was no way he could defend himself. How do you I mean he tried,

59:39

he had the journals and all that, and nobody

59:41

remembered her story, including her own friend. UM.

59:46

Anyway, so that's that's blasi forward. I didn't

59:48

object to a media vetting of

59:51

the claim she brought forward. Everyone

59:53

else I feel very differently about. It

59:55

was a huge smear job. It changed

59:58

the Supreme Court nomination process

1:00:01

forever. What the Democrats were

1:00:03

doing to Brett Kavanaugh was disgusting and

1:00:05

unforgivable. It was unforgivable the

1:00:07

fact that they accused him of gang rape from

1:00:09

this Julie Sweat Knicks allegations, which were

1:00:11

completely and obviously focused from day

1:00:13

one, day one. It

1:00:16

was disgusting. And the fact that they would

1:00:18

run with an allegation like

1:00:20

that at places like NBC,

1:00:23

but wouldn't run the Harvey

1:00:25

Weinstein rape stories that Rose

1:00:28

mcgallen was on the record with and other women were

1:00:30

on the record with with NBC. That's just one

1:00:32

of the media that dropped the ball on It

1:00:34

is egregious, right. It just tells you everything

1:00:36

you need to know about bias.

1:00:39

They protect the guy, the rich

1:00:41

guy. He's donated to all the Democrats

1:00:43

and you know, he makes legal threats, so okay,

1:00:45

peace out. By the way, they have their own, you

1:00:48

know, predator inside the halls of NBC. As it turned

1:00:50

out, um which recording to Roning

1:00:52

was exactly why they didn't want to tell the

1:00:54

story of Harvey Weinsteins. But as long as it's

1:00:56

a Republican nominated of the Supreme Court. Have

1:00:59

Adam go for it? Julie Sweat, Nick Michael

1:01:01

Abanadi? How many times can we put you on television?

1:01:04

Um? Anyway, to me,

1:01:07

it was a travesty and we're gearing up

1:01:09

for another one. That's what

1:01:11

I was gonna say. We're talking before this. This is not going

1:01:13

to go up till next week. But how much of a mess do

1:01:15

you think this next day? And I

1:01:17

guess what I should say because you got me fired up

1:01:19

too. These are theoretically some

1:01:21

of the brightest legal minds in politics

1:01:24

that are on the Senate Judiciary Committee,

1:01:26

sitting as Democrats, right, And I watched

1:01:29

those hearings and I just thought to myself,

1:01:32

how in the world could you ever

1:01:34

think this makes sense as an

1:01:36

objective lawyer? Right? The way

1:01:38

that so many of those Democrats

1:01:41

behaved, And I would like to think that Republicans

1:01:43

on the Senate Judiciary Committee wouldn't behave

1:01:45

the same way. We may have to wait a few years to

1:01:47

find out, but to me, the precedent

1:01:49

that the Kavanaugh here hearing set is effectively

1:01:52

no one is eligible to be a Supreme

1:01:54

Court justice because everybody's got something

1:01:57

that somebody negative can say about

1:02:00

them, even if it doesn't rise to the level

1:02:02

of being criminal. Well,

1:02:04

that's the thing is like people are taking a hard look at Coney

1:02:07

Barrett saying, oh, they're going to come after her for her

1:02:09

faith or you know, for this ruling or for that ruling.

1:02:11

They're going to come after anyone. If

1:02:14

I were Trump, I would pick who I genuinely want,

1:02:16

you know, I would want to pick the one who would give me the best

1:02:18

legacy on the bench with the rulings

1:02:20

I hope for right that who's going

1:02:22

to be institutionalist and originalists

1:02:24

and represent, you know, my world view

1:02:27

when it comes to law the best possible, because

1:02:29

whoever it is is going to get killed

1:02:32

unfairly by the press and by

1:02:34

the Democrats. And I think you're doing more

1:02:36

generous than I am. I don't look at those Democrat

1:02:38

lawyers and think these are some of the best legal minds in the

1:02:40

country. I really know very

1:02:42

few people who have. I said, for Paul, for politicians,

1:02:45

they're some of the best legal minds, right, I mean that

1:02:47

that's the best of the elected officials

1:02:49

unfortunately, that have a law degrees

1:02:52

that we could rely on. And I just sat there discussed

1:02:54

it. I mean, you know, I couldn't believe what

1:02:56

I was seeing. Um And by

1:02:59

the way, years why the Lindsay Graham moment was

1:03:01

so huge. We

1:03:03

all watched and I covered at length

1:03:05

while the wall gavel, the gavel the Supreme Court

1:03:07

confirmation hearing is in recent history of John Roberts,

1:03:10

of Samuel Alito, of Lana Kagan, if Sonia

1:03:12

Soto mayor, none of this happened.

1:03:14

There was like a little Aldo who got a little

1:03:16

bit unfairly beat up and his wife

1:03:19

shed a tear. Right. It's like a sad

1:03:21

moment in the in the process, that's

1:03:23

it, And that was already more vicious

1:03:25

than it used to be, other than bourk And

1:03:28

to see them try to destroy

1:03:31

this man, destroy him

1:03:33

without any concern

1:03:36

for the truth, for what, what would

1:03:38

be admissible in a court of law, what's appropriate

1:03:40

to report to an audience of millions, was

1:03:44

infuriating. And so I

1:03:47

think we're going to see it again. I think

1:03:49

I don't know how to solve it. I think it's like

1:03:51

a nuclear arms race now where

1:03:54

no one's gonna step down. Each side

1:03:56

just keeps raising the anti Although

1:04:00

all I can hope is that because I think

1:04:02

Trump's going to fill the seat, and I think he's going to get

1:04:04

his vote, and I think he's going to install the next justice

1:04:06

on the Supreme Court. Um.

1:04:08

And I don't think the Democrats. I

1:04:11

I don't believe they're going to pull the trigger on

1:04:14

unpastacking the court. Yeah. Yeah,

1:04:16

I just I can't believe they do that. It's

1:04:18

that is killing the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court

1:04:21

is done. If they do that, it's over. I just

1:04:23

by the way I go that far. Yeah,

1:04:27

I can't imagine. I was just gonna say, if

1:04:29

you want to read about that, there's a fantastic

1:04:31

book by Molly Hemingway h

1:04:33

called Justice on Trial, the Kavanaugh

1:04:36

Confirmation and the Future of

1:04:38

the Supreme Court. It goes all the way

1:04:40

through. Uh, it's an incredible

1:04:42

book. Molly Hemmingway. I want to make sure I get it right.

1:04:44

And Carrie Severino did

1:04:46

a phenomenal job on that. All right, I've kept you

1:04:48

for a long time. Final question here because I'm

1:04:51

always kind of curious. This is the Wins and Losses Podcast.

1:04:53

I'm Clay Travis. We've been talking with Megan Kelly

1:04:55

and by the way, this is fantas like I want to

1:04:57

bring you on to talk when this when

1:05:00

this process actually starts playing out

1:05:02

on the Supreme Court, like, I

1:05:04

feel like it's gonna be I feel like it's gonna

1:05:07

be covered so poorly that I'm

1:05:09

already fired up about just wanting

1:05:11

to have a panel of smart lawyers who

1:05:13

aren't trying to come at this from a

1:05:15

like I'm not telling you who I think should be

1:05:17

on the Supreme Court, Right, I'm not the president.

1:05:20

I probably would disagree with many of the

1:05:22

rulings that Brett Kavanaugh would make, or

1:05:24

Sonya Sada mayor for that purpose,

1:05:26

whoever you want to point to, Right, But Brett

1:05:29

Kavanaugh was imminently qualified

1:05:31

and probably as good of a choice

1:05:33

as Donald Trump could make. Right, Like regard

1:05:36

if you're acknowledging that the Republican

1:05:38

is going to make the choice, I think Amy Coney

1:05:40

Barrett, based on everything that I know about her,

1:05:42

and if research, is an eminently reasonable

1:05:45

choice. This isn't George Bush trying to

1:05:47

put Harriet Myers on the Court

1:05:49

because he's good friends with her. You know, this

1:05:51

is an eminently reasonable choice. And I just feel

1:05:54

like the media by and large is going

1:05:56

to do such an awful and crappy

1:05:58

job of covering this that I feel

1:06:00

like there has to be an outlet that can

1:06:02

do a good job of it. And I'm sure you'll do a good job

1:06:05

on your podcast, but I feel like that's being lost

1:06:08

now. I couldn't agree more. And it did occur

1:06:10

to me, you know, for the purposes of

1:06:12

my launching this podcast. It was good timing,

1:06:14

you know, to have this battle. I do respect

1:06:17

the work of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. For the record, I do

1:06:19

think she was a liberal icon. She was

1:06:22

She was a fighter for women. I refer not to what

1:06:24

she did on the bench, but what she did as an advocate prior

1:06:26

to that and at Harvard coming up in a man's world.

1:06:28

So I mean respect, respect, And I loved

1:06:30

her friendship with Scalia and they were an example

1:06:32

and bipartisanship. Um. But

1:06:36

this battle is going to require objective,

1:06:39

fair voices out there where people

1:06:41

know they can turn for the truth, the truth,

1:06:44

and I know you're one of them, and I will

1:06:46

be too. As soon as I get this thing launched the week

1:06:48

of the twenty eight, we will be

1:06:50

listening, all right. Final question, what do you wish you

1:06:52

could go back and tell yourself when you walked

1:06:55

out of the law firm and into your

1:06:57

media career. That would have helped

1:06:59

you the most to be prepared for what was

1:07:01

to come. Mm

1:07:04

hmm, wow.

1:07:06

I might have said, you just turned back in there,

1:07:08

girl, don't. You'll

1:07:11

be a partner. You can become really

1:07:13

successful there and you

1:07:15

know, at some point you can ride off into the sunset.

1:07:18

I mean, I got a lot of friends who who have stayed

1:07:20

in the partner life and uh, and they're

1:07:22

doing well. And the positive with that

1:07:24

is you grind and it's a tough, tough job,

1:07:27

but by and large, you don't have to worry about

1:07:29

waking up and pulling out your phone and

1:07:31

somebody is you know, somebody has come

1:07:33

after you and you're trending, you know on

1:07:36

on Twitter. You know. Okay on

1:07:38

that front. The difference between your

1:07:40

adversary coming after you in the practice

1:07:42

of law in my experience, and

1:07:45

those who come after you, as you

1:07:47

know, in this profession and media is the

1:07:50

lawyers still have honor. They

1:07:53

do, not all of them, but for the most part, lawyers

1:07:56

still have honor in my experience, and they

1:07:58

they won't try to hurt you unfair early. Um.

1:08:01

That's not the case in media. Their their

1:08:03

business is to be unfair and

1:08:07

unfactual in today's day and age,

1:08:09

and so as frustrating as that

1:08:11

can be, it is it is like

1:08:13

that's our reality, and one just now has to learn

1:08:15

how to navigate around it, and then,

1:08:18

unfortunately help people who aren't

1:08:20

in the media learned to navigate around it because they

1:08:22

also live in a world of Facebook and

1:08:24

Twitter where things they're just said about

1:08:26

them that aren't true, and now they have to pussy

1:08:28

foot around every issue when they're at their jobs

1:08:31

lest they lose them, you know. And

1:08:33

so I don't know. I just think the call is greater than

1:08:35

ever to do what we're doing. But

1:08:38

sure, I think in some ways my life would have been

1:08:40

easier had I just taken that partnership and tried

1:08:42

a bunch of cases and retired with you

1:08:44

know, I guess in fifteen more years with it, with

1:08:47

a fat pension of some sort. Um.

1:08:50

Listen, I'll leave you with this because I've mentioned my therapist

1:08:52

several times. He's amazing. Um.

1:08:55

After one one of the many blow ups

1:08:57

in my life or we were talking and uh, he

1:08:59

said, you know, Megan, you

1:09:02

don't always have to take the path of

1:09:04

most resistance. And

1:09:08

I thought, you know. If you know me at all,

1:09:11

you know that I do. Some of us are

1:09:13

just pugilistic by nature, and for

1:09:15

whatever reason, the flame finds

1:09:18

us. And I think that's brought great,

1:09:20

great gifts into my life and some downsides

1:09:22

as well, but I'm balanced. I wouldn't train

1:09:24

any of it. This has been phenomenal.

1:09:27

This has been fantastic. I would encourage all

1:09:29

of you to go make sure that you subscribe

1:09:31

to Megan Kelly's new podcast. Go follow

1:09:33

her on Twitter at Megan Kelly. I'll

1:09:35

tweet out the link. If you haven't followed her already,

1:09:37

you can make sure you do it just in time for the Supreme

1:09:39

Court confirmation battle that appears it's going to

1:09:41

be eminent on the next few days. Megan,

1:09:44

thank you so much. I know how busy you are. This was phenomenal.

1:09:46

Look forward to being able to talk some time again down

1:09:48

the line. Thanks Clay, I appreciate

1:09:51

it. That is Megan Kelly. I'm Clay Travis.

1:09:53

This has been wins and losses.

1:09:56

Be sure to catch live editions about Kick

1:09:58

the Coverage with Clay Travis weekday. He's at

1:10:00

six am Eastern three am Pacific,