0:02

Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast,

0:05

your home for deer hunting news, stories

0:08

and strategies, and now

0:10

your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome

0:14

to the Wired to Hunt podcast.

0:16

I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode

0:18

number four oh three, and today

0:21

we're kicking off a new series in which we're

0:23

diving deep into specific types

0:25

of habitat with a roundtable of experts.

0:28

And today that's hill country habitat

0:30

and we're talking with Andy May, Joe

0:32

Elsinger, and Justin Wright.

0:38

All Right, welcome to the Wired

0:40

to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X.

0:43

Today we're kicking off a new series in this

0:45

series is all about

0:47

getting into the nitty gritty details of

0:50

specific types of habitat

0:52

across the country. If you were to look across

0:54

the country, you can kind of bucket

0:57

certain parts of you know,

0:59

the deer hunting world. Within these

1:01

these I guess, for lack of better

1:03

world categories, you've got hill country, like what

1:05

we're talking about today. You could say we've got agricultural

1:08

land. You could say there's big woods habitat, there's

1:11

swamps, there's mountains,

1:13

there's open country. There's all these different types

1:16

of ground we might spend our

1:18

time hunting deer, and each one of these

1:20

different locations and types can

1:22

be found really in different parts of the country, but each

1:24

of them requires a

1:26

different set of ideas and

1:29

skills and information

1:32

and and even hunting philosophies. And

1:34

so what we're trying to do over the next I don't

1:36

know how many weeks it's gonna end up being, but we're going

1:39

to get a collection of experts on

1:41

these topics together to talk

1:43

through all the different things they think about when it

1:45

comes to these specific kinds of places

1:47

we hunt. And this was inspired

1:49

by my buddy Andy May. If

1:51

you listen to the podcast, you know Andy. He's he's

1:54

one of the very best deer hunters in the country. I'm

1:56

convinced of that, and he does

1:58

it all. D I y

2:01

a lot of public land of private land by

2:03

permission, and he he is one

2:05

of these guys who I frequently looked to for

2:08

inspiration or guidance. And

2:10

and the interesting thing is that he came to me with

2:12

this idea saying, hey, man, I am

2:14

trying to learn more. This

2:16

is one of the best guys out there in the world, saying I'm trying

2:18

to learn more. And the way he was trying to learn

2:20

more. It was by pulling in these groups of

2:22

people who he viewed his experts on these topics

2:24

and picking their brain. And so we got to

2:26

think, and what if we did that, but instead

2:29

of it just being, you know, on

2:31

a phone by ourselves, what if

2:33

we share that with everybody out there. What if we share

2:35

that with all the deer hunters out there that are probably curious

2:37

about the same thing. So I tasked

2:39

Andy with coming up with

2:42

the people he wants to hear from,

2:44

the people that he views as being the most

2:46

likely to teach him something new about

2:48

each of these different habitat types. And

2:50

then we set out to schedule these conversations

2:53

and to get these groups of people together where

2:55

each one of us can share our ideas and then

2:57

balance ideas off each other, maybe argued from

3:00

perspectives, maybe agree, maybe not. Today

3:03

we're starting that, and today, as I mentioned,

3:05

it's hill country. We've got Andy

3:07

kind of leading the discussion. I'm

3:09

sitting in as uh as ah,

3:11

I don't know, steering the bus as we go kind of

3:13

character. And then we're also joined by Joe al

3:15

Singer and Justin Wright, and I

3:18

have Andy introduced these guys here in a minute, so

3:20

you can learn more about why he views them

3:22

as the right expert to talk about Hell Country hunting.

3:25

But I just gotta say,

3:27

this is a riveting conversation. And

3:29

yeah, I know when this episode is coming out, it's

3:31

January, a lot of us are maybe

3:33

taking a little time away from deer hunting. But now

3:36

is the time to learn. Now was the time to

3:38

be thinking. Now is the time to be planning

3:41

for the next hunting season. And I

3:43

think this conversation, if

3:45

it does anything like what it did for me, it's gonna

3:47

give you that kick in the butt to jump right back

3:49

into it. And uh, I'm pretty excited

3:52

about that. So with all that out of the way,

3:54

I will just uh let you get

3:56

right into it. I hope you enjoy it. And here

3:58

we go with my conversation with

4:00

Andy May, Joe Elsinger,

4:03

and Justin right all

4:07

right with me on the phone. We

4:09

have got kind of the if

4:12

you were, if you're if you're a superhero fan, you

4:14

like those Marvel movies, imagine the Avengers

4:17

of the deer hunting world. We've

4:19

got Andy May, Justin Wright,

4:21

and Joe Elsinger on the phone with me. I

4:24

might be you know that character.

4:26

If you have you've ever seen these movies, Samuel Jackson

4:28

is the guy that I don't even know what his

4:30

name is in the movies, but he's just kind of the guy that says,

4:33

you do this, what do you think about this? And

4:35

then he sits back in the office and lets them all do

4:37

the fighting. That's kind of my role here tonight.

4:41

So so

4:44

what I wanna do? Um And

4:46

and rather than do the whole like introduction

4:48

thing that we do on a lot of podcasts, I don't

4:51

think I'm gonna do that as normal because

4:53

there's there's four of us and there's so much good

4:55

stuff to talk about. UM.

4:57

I want to begin with you, Andy, because

5:00

you and I were having a conversation the other day,

5:02

and the conversation is what sparked us

5:04

doing this podcast, and I'd love to get you to explain

5:07

that a little bit more. You were saying, I

5:09

remember I was pacing back and forth in my living

5:11

room as we were talking. You're stressing me out so

5:13

much without you're saying, because you're

5:16

saying, man, you know, I just

5:18

feel like I've

5:21

never been more frustrated in a

5:23

hunting season than I was this past year.

5:25

And I'm thinking to myself, Andy, you had one of

5:27

the most successful hunting seasons like any normal

5:30

person could ever ask for. You killed three

5:32

or four really impressive mature white

5:34

tail box, he killed a giant mule dere and

5:36

still you were sitting here focusing

5:39

on how can I get better? How can I

5:41

learn more about this terrain? How could I figure

5:43

out what to do in this kind of situation or this

5:45

kind of situation. And you were telling me how you were, you

5:48

know, reinvigorated and just chomping

5:50

at the bit to get better, to to talk to

5:52

more people, to get more ideas, and I it

5:54

was it was, I

5:57

don't know what it was. It was. It was maybe inspiring

6:00

or maybe it made me hate you just a little bit more

6:02

that you were going to get even better than you already

6:04

hard And so what I

6:06

what I wanted to just can you can you explain

6:09

like where that? Can you explain

6:11

your mindset after the season you have had and where

6:13

you are now that has led you to pulling

6:17

people like this together to have in depth conversations.

6:19

How how did you get here? Andy? Why why

6:22

do you think this way? Well?

6:25

I think I kind of always I've always

6:27

had that mindset I know, I've mentioned it in

6:29

a lot of podcasts. You

6:31

know, I think when I really think about

6:34

my goal, you know, my main

6:36

goals as a deer hunter is UM,

6:39

I just want to I would just want to become the

6:41

best hunter that I can be UM.

6:43

And I always have. I've always had that real

6:47

strong drive to learn in UM,

6:49

seek out information from

6:52

guys that I think are more knowledgeable

6:54

than me and more skilled

6:56

than me. UM.

6:59

This year, I I'm not I'm

7:01

I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, but

7:04

it's just how I feel this

7:06

year. I did have some great success I had

7:08

some phenomenal hunts UM,

7:11

but I made some

7:13

really key mistakes on some really

7:15

big deer this year UM

7:19

that have really left up a

7:21

bad taste in my mouth. I take I

7:23

take UH failure pretty hard. I

7:25

Mean, the successes are great, UM,

7:28

but when I fail at something that I

7:30

did wrong or that I should have done that I could have

7:32

done, man, those

7:34

really stick with me. And I

7:37

don't know, I guess it's just the way I'm wired. But

7:40

there was a couple, I don't

7:42

know, just a couple of situations and hunts

7:44

and and times throughout the season where I

7:46

just felt real frustrated. UM.

7:49

You know, I had four great hunts,

7:52

but I hunted more than

7:54

I ever did this year, and

7:56

there was a lot of time in between those

7:58

and around those where you

8:01

know, I felt, I don't know,

8:03

I felt like I was really struggling

8:05

and UM

8:07

just not I wouldn't say lost, but I just

8:10

felt like I wasn't on

8:12

top of my game, I guess. And

8:14

you know, none of

8:16

us are going to be, you know, deadly

8:18

a percent of the time, but you know, it

8:21

does get a little frustrating with the majority

8:23

of your season, you feel like that. I haven't

8:25

felt like that in quite a while. I certainly

8:27

have moments, but I guess I came

8:29

out of the season, UM,

8:32

not liking that feeling. And you

8:35

said it best. I just felt, UM,

8:37

I guess re energized to really really

8:42

try to improve some of these areas

8:44

that I feel uh

8:47

I could improve in, UM

8:50

and one of the areas

8:52

UM that I certainly felt

8:54

competent in, but

8:59

I wouldn't say My confidence is the highest.

9:02

UH is in hill country,

9:04

UM, and I've been hunting more and more of that. I really

9:07

like the hills. I feel

9:09

I'm I feel like I'm

9:11

maybe a little above average. But

9:14

I know a couple of guys that

9:18

I mean, as far as I'm

9:21

concerned, there two

9:23

of the best hill country guys UM

9:26

in the country. I'm I know there's guys

9:28

out there that we don't know. I'm sure

9:30

they're not gonna agree with that, But

9:34

I mean, I know deer and I know deer hunting, and

9:36

I don't deer hunters, and these guys

9:38

are some

9:40

of the best. And they're not only some of the best deer

9:43

hunters, are just some of the best guys. Um.

9:45

They're consistent, they're d i y guys

9:48

like like me. Um,

9:50

they hunt a lot of pressured land.

9:52

UM. I don't know. I just look up to him.

9:55

And we're lucky enough to have both

9:57

those guys on here now. So uh.

10:00

The first guy, Joe L. Singer.

10:03

UM. A lot of people you know Joe.

10:05

He's been on a few podcasts. He's

10:08

kind of a legend on the hunting Beast. Um

10:12

Man. Joe is just he's

10:15

just one of those guys that when

10:19

you hear about his season and the way he

10:22

hunts, UM, it kind

10:24

of makes you feel

10:26

like you don't know a whole lot. Um.

10:29

He's just he his

10:33

his hunts are very detail

10:35

oriented. They're almost um

10:38

they almost that

10:41

he almost like engineers them in

10:43

his mind with the way his setups are

10:46

in the conditions and he takes so

10:48

many things into account. And

10:51

I just really admire

10:54

the way he hunts and the way he goes about

10:56

his hunts because it's a it's a little different

10:59

than me. Um, we have some similarities,

11:01

but uh, he

11:04

just he just takes it to a whole new

11:06

level, I think with his efficiency

11:09

and

11:12

I just he's just a guy that I've

11:14

always learned from and I've

11:16

always I've been fortunate enough to

11:19

become friends with him and keep in contact with

11:21

him, and I'm just really thankful for that because I've learned

11:23

a lot from him. Um.

11:26

The other guy on on the episode today

11:28

is Justin Wright, who again

11:31

another hunting beast guy. Um

11:33

Man probably one of the most

11:36

deadly guys I know. UM,

11:38

a straight d I y hunter and

11:42

he just every

11:44

year, Um, he just kind

11:47

of leaves me in awe

11:49

with what he does on such limited

11:51

time. Both these guys kind of like myself,

11:54

maybe even more so definitely this year.

11:57

UM. I mean these are family guys. These

11:59

are guys that you know, don't hunt

12:02

big leases. They don't hunt

12:04

you know, big family farms. It's a

12:07

it's a mix of you know, pressured private

12:09

ground and in public and

12:12

they travel around a different chunks and they're

12:15

just as deadly as they come, and they're

12:17

super efficient. So they're they're family men

12:19

first, they're good guys first, their humble,

12:22

but on such limited time

12:24

they do things that just

12:26

almost don't seem possible. And

12:30

both of their specialties I think they're

12:32

probably deadly just about any situation,

12:34

but both their specialties are our hill country.

12:36

And I just feel real fortunate

12:39

to have them on this episode so that we

12:41

can all kind of dive into their minds

12:43

a little bit and learn. Um,

12:46

it should be a good one. Yeah, Well, I'm

12:49

I'm feeling the same way. I'm I'm excited.

12:51

And these are

12:54

the three of you are all three folks

12:56

who all of us can learn from

12:58

me, especially Um. I

13:00

always feel like with Joe, he's

13:02

he's of all the different Maybe

13:05

not everyone, but if I can look at a lot of different

13:07

people's hunting styles and the way they go about

13:09

things, I see the way that Joe approaches

13:12

it and his his analytical mindset.

13:15

It seems very much like what I

13:17

want to be, like what I what I try

13:19

to get to, but I inevitably

13:21

fall into these circular, circular

13:24

arguments with myself that send me down different

13:26

rabbit holes. And and one not of five times I

13:28

pull it off right. But I feel

13:31

like every time I get a chance to talk to you, it's

13:33

going to it's gonna help me get a little bit closer

13:35

to that goal destination. And

13:38

and justin, I'm excited that we finally get to talk.

13:40

Uh, and he has been talking to me about getting you on

13:42

the podcast for a long time now, so I'm glad

13:44

it's happening. And um,

13:46

and I'm gonna kind of play, like I

13:48

mentioned, I'm gonna kind of sit in the background a little

13:50

bit and and maybe kind of play

13:53

the audience member. I'll let Andy

13:55

be the host. I'll let him drive the

13:57

ship. He'll be the school bus driver, and I'm

13:59

gonna be the kid in the back sea of the bus, the kid

14:01

that's I'm not necessarily gonna be looking out the back

14:04

window waving at all the other cars. But

14:06

I will kind of let you

14:08

guys have this conversation

14:10

because I know Andy's wanted to have these talks

14:13

with you guys in more detail, and I'm gonna listen in

14:15

and when I'm confused by something, or if

14:17

I hear something that I think other people might be wondering

14:19

more about, or if you really get my curiosity

14:22

going, I'll jump in. UM. But

14:24

otherwise I want to kind of be a fly

14:26

on the wall and just sit here, sit

14:29

here in the circle of legends, and see

14:32

what we can get into. So Andy,

14:34

let's let's scratch your itch. Where

14:36

do you want to start? Where? What are you dying

14:39

to know from these guys to be in this conversation

14:41

about hill country? All right,

14:43

Well, let's just start with something that's

14:47

kinda pretty basic. UM.

14:50

This is this is what I do when

14:52

I'm going into a new

14:54

piece of hill country. When I'm

14:56

looking at the topo maps, UM,

15:00

I look for UM

15:03

ridge systems. I call them dynamic ridge

15:05

systems. I don't know if that's the right term, but I

15:07

look for ridge systems that have

15:10

a lot of terrain features,

15:12

a lot of points jutting off

15:14

in different directions. UM

15:16

saddles benches. The more terrain

15:18

and the more dynamic it is, the better UM.

15:22

And those are the ridge systems that I'm

15:24

kind of drawn to. And I tend

15:26

to stay away from the ones that are more long

15:30

um less points maybe

15:33

you know, maybe just off that beIN ridge, maybe

15:35

just one or two you know, secondary points.

15:37

And I guess I've never really been

15:40

told that that's a good or bad thing, but I wanted

15:42

to get your guys opinions on that approach,

15:45

UM, and maybe what if

15:48

you could dive into what what you look for? If

15:50

you're starting from scratch, you're going to a whole new piece

15:53

of hill country, and uh, what

15:55

you look for? So let's start with you, Joe,

15:59

Yeah, than Sandy. UM. First

16:01

off, thanks Mark for having

16:03

us back on UM noise.

16:06

Let's say that for justin to this

16:09

should be a good conversation. But yeah, you're you're

16:12

definitely feel flattered

16:14

by your your guys descriptions.

16:17

UM, maybe we can dive into some of the failures

16:19

I've had this year, because I had

16:21

some pretty good luck. But I have to admit that

16:23

when um

16:25

Andy described this season as you know, kind

16:27

of focusing on what went wrong, I

16:30

have that similar bank set where I royally

16:33

screwed up a couple of times and and it

16:36

bugs the economy. So definitely

16:38

does not go right all the time. Or

16:40

even most of time for me. So um,

16:43

but anyway, c civic to this. So

16:46

yeah, UM, all

16:48

else being equal, and it really is,

16:50

uh, the more rugged the

16:53

ground the better in my opinion.

16:55

It's just you know, the more

16:57

terrain features you have, the better, um,

17:00

hill country. UM,

17:02

you know, but you don't get that often you

17:04

can't you know, UM,

17:07

you might have really you might be hunting

17:09

properties that are really steep and

17:11

rugged rugged, or you might be hunting

17:13

properties that have just gentle rolling

17:15

hills that funnel the deer

17:18

way less aggressively. Um. And then

17:20

um, you know, and some of the gentle hills

17:23

you have to deal with. Really

17:25

the the

17:27

deer move more according to

17:29

cover than terrain. Um. There's

17:31

kind of a there's kind of a point where

17:34

you know, when it becomes the hill has

17:36

become so steep that the deer have to work

17:38

going up and down them. That's when

17:40

the terrain seems to be the dominant

17:44

um factor and how deer move. And

17:46

then when it's a little flatter, I couldn't

17:48

tell you a slope, I couldn't tell you an elevation.

17:51

UM. It's kind of case by case. We should

17:53

think of it like that, where the flatter

17:56

hills. UM, you know, you kind

17:58

of have to focus more on the cover and additions,

18:00

et cetera. UM, and the steeper

18:02

stuff transitions can still be important, but

18:06

terrain becomes the driving

18:08

factor for how they move. UM. So yeah, I

18:11

like points and saddles and UM,

18:13

you know crows feet ridges where a whole

18:15

bunch of points come together. That's

18:18

one of the key areas

18:20

that I would focus on. You know, when

18:22

you have a whole bunch of secondary points

18:24

come together, that's often a really killer

18:27

area. UM, if the

18:29

cover is reasonably good conducive

18:32

for you know, betting on those ends of those points.

18:34

UM. Benches are

18:37

another thing, and it Benches are a thing that UM,

18:40

I think our predecessors long ago

18:42

kind of realize that wildlife

18:44

travel on benches and bed on benches. But I

18:47

don't hear much discussion

18:49

about benches UM and current

18:51

hunting community. And they're kind of hard to spot

18:54

on a TAPLE map. You know, they're just where the contours

18:56

gets based out a little bit. On the side

18:58

hills, you have contours that are all stack tight.

19:00

You know, you show the steep slope and makes the base

19:02

out and make it tight again. Lots of bench,

19:05

um, and deer bed on them and

19:08

they travel on them. So the bigger the hills,

19:10

they really like those benches, um,

19:13

some of the three four hundred foot

19:15

bluffs that I hunt, and

19:18

they they I really spot

19:20

those benches and don't seem like

19:23

you know, the secrets out now talking

19:25

about it, but don't seem like very many hunters

19:28

try to hunt those. The wind can be dicey,

19:30

but there's ways to you know, um

19:34

hunts on those benches. So yeah,

19:37

I guess that's a quick summary of where, um,

19:40

how how I kind of look at it. Um.

19:43

They basically similar to you Andy

19:46

that the more more

19:49

train features the better usually, Um,

19:52

that really final

19:54

deer. Yeah, it's interesting.

19:57

Um, that's what I look for

19:59

now. Um. But my first

20:01

year hunting Iowa, UM,

20:03

I was hunting hill country and I was on a

20:06

ridge that had it

20:08

was a CRP field

20:11

on top, so they had an opening on the

20:13

top that was good cover. It probably

20:15

wouldn't hunt the inside corner, right I

20:17

did. Yeah, but this ridge,

20:20

this ridge was very long, UM,

20:23

didn't have a lot of points uh

20:25

coming off of it, so it was kind of you know,

20:27

it lacked a lot of features. But

20:30

on the end of that long point, um,

20:32

just kind of a long, narrow point without much

20:35

going on, was to

20:37

this day the biggest typical buck

20:39

um I've ever seen in Iowa.

20:42

And it was interesting, you know.

20:44

I mean, like now, I

20:46

don't draw a lot of tension to those

20:48

types of ridges, uh for

20:50

some reason. But I did see a real

20:52

big but I didn't see a lot of deer, but I did see

20:54

a real big buck betted on the

20:56

end of that. Yeah.

20:59

And length the length of

21:01

a ridge system. So if you're right hunting

21:03

other times a year, you know de aren't moving

21:05

as far. But rot um,

21:08

those long ridges are megafunnels.

21:11

You know, deer bucks are running up and down.

21:13

So if you've got a ridge that system that's

21:15

half a mile long or more and you can get in the middle

21:17

of it, Um, that's

21:20

even if you're not real close to betting. If

21:22

it's peak rot and you know you've got

21:24

decent deer population, you can have you

21:27

know, just that's one of those things. Going blind, you

21:29

could have a great hunt. I agree. Um.

21:32

So the um particularly, I

21:34

would say during the rot, you know, outside

21:37

of the rout, you kind of have to look at more than micro

21:39

features exactly where

21:41

they're betting where they're feeding. Yeah,

21:44

okay, hey Justin how about

21:47

you, Yeah, I mean I would thinking

21:49

back kind of also what both of you guys said,

21:51

Um, I was talking about

21:53

the long ridges, and I know that's something before

21:55

I think, you know,

21:59

you kind of look past those. UM.

22:02

I have seen a lot of uh there

22:05

in the ride. I've seen a lot of cruising

22:07

on the side of those, um,

22:09

you know, kind of going back and forth, uh,

22:12

checking different doe groups and stuff, you know,

22:14

on the ends of those grid business stuff. So I

22:16

would agree with that. But for me, I wrote,

22:18

I've mainly hunted more rolling

22:21

hills. Um. I've

22:23

got into a little bit of this steeper stuff the

22:26

blow country here in the past few years,

22:28

and it does seem like kind

22:30

of what Joe said. It seems like the deer a little

22:33

more predictable based

22:35

on like the terrain, you know, drain

22:37

features kind of funnel them a little more. But

22:39

the rolling hills, for me, it's about

22:42

diversity. I mean, I have to find

22:45

diversity, you know, multiple

22:47

different uh coverage

22:50

just coming together. Um, because

22:52

they really seemed to kind of like Joe said,

22:54

they really seemed to stick to cover more

22:57

so than kind of the terrain

22:59

funnel on them. And I'll be honest, I

23:01

think in the in the rolling kills the winds

23:03

and suffer, they just seem

23:05

to be a little bit more difficult because

23:08

of the thermals don't have white and strong

23:10

plate. You know. Is that you in

23:12

like the secret drink um

23:15

so me, Yeah, it's diversity.

23:18

Um. I do have to say, I've

23:20

seen a lot of I've kicked

23:22

a lot of bucks. Uff. I kill a lot of bucks

23:25

in these bowl shaped ridges. These

23:27

bridges it's like so it would be like

23:29

a ridge like in the shape of the seed, and

23:32

it has several secondary points

23:34

that shut down off of it, offering a you

23:37

know, several different um

23:39

points to bed on based on the winds and stuff.

23:42

And I have seen a ton of

23:44

box betting in those. M hmm.

23:46

That's really one thing that I that I really

23:48

looked for. I just had some really

23:50

good love to quick with those. Yeah.

23:53

So yeah, I mean you guys kind of

23:55

get on it though, you know pretty much pretty

23:58

much the same. I mean, you know, saddles

24:00

and and all. That's the points. Uh,

24:04

you know, that's all things I look for. But probably

24:06

the first thing would be the bull. I don't

24:08

know, I've just had a lot of u uh finding

24:11

bucks better than Yeah,

24:16

let's uh. I was gonna ask about bowls

24:18

a little later. But since we're on that and

24:21

we're talking about bucks betting, UM,

24:25

let's talk about like we you know, you hear about the

24:27

leeward side of the ridge, you know, on the points

24:29

and whatnot, and and that's really

24:34

the majority of what you hear about as

24:36

far as the mature bucks betting, so we know that's

24:38

one of the features. And now Justin

24:41

and Joe you're mentioned you know these bowls,

24:43

and I've seen that as well. Um.

24:46

I've also seen him down low and I've

24:49

also seen them bed

24:52

just right at the right at the

24:54

head of a drainage on

24:56

a really thick hillside, like right at

24:58

the right where drainage

25:00

comes to, uh where it dies

25:02

off at the top there below the ridge

25:05

top, but at the head of the drainage. So can

25:07

you guys, Justin, let's start with you. Why

25:10

don't you go through some of the

25:13

all the types of features that you have seen

25:15

mature bucks bet on it besides just

25:17

points, I've seen them

25:19

bet download two um

25:22

a lot of times. I don't know if

25:24

that's more based on so like here, for

25:26

instance, than the majority of the stuffy

25:28

hunt. A lot of your access would

25:30

be from the tops of these bridges. Um.

25:34

And then guys will you know, they'll go up a

25:36

certain distance and then they'll they'll shut down

25:38

off this bridge and they'll hunt that. Well. I don't know if it's

25:40

just you know, if the deer is gonna survive

25:42

there, they're gonna have to do something to get away from

25:44

that pressure, so they're gonna drop down a little bit lower.

25:47

Um. I don't know about actually betting

25:49

in the bottom, but um,

25:51

I have seen them be a lot lower

25:54

on the you know, like the points. Uh

25:56

even I'm talking to ten ft

25:59

from the bottom, you know. And again this is

26:01

more so you're rolling hills. Um.

26:05

I've seen a bed like you said, Andy, I've seen that

26:07

is ahead of drainage systems. And

26:10

I have seen them bed on

26:12

just like a bench on the side,

26:14

you know, especially in the lake. See that it seems like

26:17

when the weather's cool and they're trying to

26:19

get some sun, it all bed on the south

26:21

basin slopes and getting out of the wind.

26:23

Um Man,

26:26

I have seen them bed of course on points

26:28

you know, as the majority of the time

26:30

on the secondary point, Um, is where

26:32

you'll find them. Mm hmm, yeah.

26:35

I mean even in the open you

26:38

know, hardwoods, if you've got

26:40

some blowdowns, three tops and stuff,

26:42

it looks rather open, but you've got a little bit of

26:44

cover there, and I've seen them bet on that and it

26:46

could even be up on the very top

26:48

of the ridge even. Um, I've

26:51

seen a bet in a lot of a lot of weird places.

26:53

I know that, you know, I think everybody

26:55

believes and you know, put for the points, and I

26:58

would say that's probably where they bed majority

27:00

of time. But I have I've seen him in a

27:02

lot of weird and odd places. And

27:05

I'll jump in real quick and ask you follow up, justin

27:08

uh, has it been

27:10

pretty consistent that

27:12

they use those features in relation

27:15

to a certain wind direction? Like

27:17

Andy mentioned, typically we'll hear about

27:19

the leeward side of a ridge. Um,

27:22

how do you think about wind when trying

27:24

to predict you know, where these bucks

27:26

might be betted in that kind of terrain? Yes,

27:30

and no. Um, so

27:33

I've seen the majority of the time, guest,

27:35

I would say they're betting on, you know,

27:37

the leeward side based on the wind

27:39

direction and all that. But I

27:41

have seen them. Like take a pole. Um,

27:44

that's kind of hard to point, but like

27:46

take a bowl and say the wind is

27:48

coming over on like the

27:51

east side of that bowl, and

27:53

the buck may be betted on, uh,

27:56

like the eastern side of the you know,

27:58

the other ridge system like as a bowl shaped around

28:01

on the other side of it. But the wind will kind

28:03

of come up and go once you get into them. A lot

28:05

of times you still find that the wind

28:07

is doing something kind of funny. So it would

28:09

like roll over that one ridge

28:11

and cause like a swirling effect

28:14

to where that deer can pretty much I

28:16

mean anything around him. He's gonna he's gonna

28:18

catch you. You know, he's gonna get a whiff

28:20

of you at some point there. But I have seen

28:22

a bed on windward float.

28:25

Um. You know, it's not always

28:28

the wind over the back thing. I think sometimes

28:31

visual uh comes into play. Uh.

28:34

You know, so in the

28:36

winter times and stuff. You know, they like

28:38

to get in suns, so they'll they'll get wherever

28:40

they can do that. But I

28:43

do believe no matter what, they have some

28:45

sort of an advantage. They're not just gonna

28:47

lay down in the spot that they're vulnerable

28:49

wind. But yeah,

28:52

I think a lot of times like that. Like I said, on the

28:54

windward slope, I think the wind a

28:56

lot of times. If you get right in those beds, you'll

28:58

start to feel the wind doing some funny

29:01

things as it swirls around or whatever

29:05

makes sense. So Joe,

29:08

you do you see some of those same things.

29:11

Yeah, justin hit

29:13

on a lot of the good points. Um.

29:16

I expand on a thing

29:18

or two that I've seen. Um.

29:22

I think, um bucks,

29:24

as they the lower they bed, the last

29:27

a line they are to you know, the

29:29

the theward slopes, um

29:33

so a pie. Yeah, most

29:35

of the time it seems like they are betting on

29:37

the leeward side leeward point, um

29:40

knobs and stuff as

29:42

they bed down lower. Um.

29:46

You really seeing break in

29:48

that correlation. Um. And now

29:50

you see it sometimes and not as often. Um.

29:54

And for reference Herberty

29:56

reference. You know some people have heard

29:58

this before. But I run a lot of trick cameras.

30:01

Um. I'm not hunting on my cameras.

30:03

I'm doing it just to learn more about deer. So.

30:06

UM. I leave

30:08

cameras silk and spots for you

30:10

know, three or four months, and then

30:13

look at that. Look at the

30:15

observations of and

30:18

correlate them with weather data. UM.

30:21

You know all that stuff UM, wind,

30:24

temperature, UM pressure,

30:27

humidity, UM, cloud cover,

30:30

UH, time of year, all that

30:33

jazz and UM.

30:35

I see a ton of correlations,

30:38

and sometimes I don't. I don't see them. You

30:40

know, the deer move and bed

30:42

very consistent, the window high down

30:44

low, there's less that consistency

30:47

UM. And I agree with justin

30:50

UM. I see bucks that and all the

30:52

time kind of low points or low benches

30:54

so they can kind of look out across the bottom

30:57

UM or a bowl. UM.

30:59

They love betting around those perimeter those bowls

31:02

UM. And you know that those

31:05

those are kind of thermal HUB. I think,

31:07

UH see a lot of times you'll see the rubs

31:09

are scrape and they bucks

31:12

dropped. They really like to drop down

31:14

off off their bed down through that bowl

31:17

and then kind off the other side. UM. I see

31:19

that a lot and UM.

31:21

The one thing I would have there is UM.

31:23

When you're talking bottom, UM,

31:26

when the bottom gets to a certain size, it

31:28

seems like that's when bucks

31:30

start betting down in it. And not just box,

31:32

but those two UM

31:35

and I don't know, hundred a couple hundred yards apartment

31:38

yards across UM

31:41

when deer start feeling more secure

31:43

and bedding down in that bottom

31:46

um, and I think it's a matter of they don't feel as trapped.

31:48

It might be a little claustrophobic if it's real

31:51

tight and constructed, the narrow

31:53

um bottom, but a bigger bottom

31:55

then they bed down in that cover

31:58

and that's when they start treating that like you

32:00

know, a bigger um, you

32:03

know, swamp or um,

32:06

marsh um, even though it might not be marshy

32:09

or swampy, but they're betting out in that bigger

32:11

bottom um, So bring

32:13

out it. That's that's when I think I see them actually

32:16

bet down in there, when it gets a little bigger. You

32:19

have you have you seen Joe any

32:23

you both Justin Andrew. You both mentioned

32:26

many different types of spots

32:29

within a hill country setting that they could

32:31

be betted. As I'm listening

32:33

to this, one of the first things I'm wondering

32:35

is, well, how the hell do I figure out what they're

32:37

using now? Right? They could be there, and

32:39

they could be there, and they could be here, and

32:42

if I was walking onto a neat piece of ground, I would

32:44

just be swimming in all these different ideas.

32:46

Um. One of the first

32:48

things I'm thinking if I was trying to

32:51

filter this down and make sense of it, I would say,

32:53

okay, well, would the time

32:55

of year change where they'd

32:57

be betted? Do you see any correlation

32:59

between wan time of the season, so

33:01

early season versus the rut versus late

33:03

season or anything like that that would

33:06

give you guidance as to how

33:08

to pick your most likely betting

33:10

spots. Is that you know, in

33:12

the early season, when there's lots of leaf cover, they're more

33:14

likely to be betted high, and when it's

33:16

a late season they're more likely better lower. I don't know,

33:19

is there anything like that that comes to mind? Yeah,

33:23

I definitely have. UM.

33:26

So, you know, in hill country,

33:28

I would say, general rule of thumb,

33:31

majority of deer going to be

33:33

bettered up high, but there are a lot

33:35

of like like, it's not a big majority,

33:38

it's a slight majority. Um.

33:40

So tiny year is a big thing,

33:43

and um, within that time of year, the

33:45

biggest factor is, in my opinion, comfort

33:47

besides hunting pressure and touch hunting pressure,

33:50

but comfort. Um, late

33:52

season deer are gonna favor those subtly

33:55

exposures. Um, they're gonna be I

33:58

don't know that they're going to be up high, but are

34:00

going to be up high enough so they can get sune. They're

34:02

not gonna be necessarily down in thick cover unless

34:05

there's no sun if it's a blizzard.

34:07

That's one of my favorite times hunt

34:10

down in the bottom when a blizzard

34:12

rolls through an hill country because all those deer

34:14

dropped down to the bottom to get out of the wind of the snow.

34:17

And I have had some crazy good hunts just seeing

34:19

tons and tons of deer um

34:22

buck hays and does and in

34:24

in December, you know, like like

34:26

weird stuff. UM in

34:29

the middle of a blizzard. You know, UM

34:31

down wall and early

34:34

season, UM, they

34:37

it's hot out. They favor of those cool north

34:39

slopes um or or bottoms

34:41

where they might be the bottom might be a little

34:43

tighter um or has water in it and

34:46

they'll be close water, so cooler

34:48

down there. So UM comforts

34:50

a big thing. And then hunting pressure there's

34:52

another big variable, and that has

34:56

a big impact UM and

34:58

stead of for but UM

35:00

when the pressures, you know, when access is

35:02

up high, that pushes deer down.

35:04

When access is down low, it pushes deer

35:06

up. UM. It's wherever

35:09

the hunters UM are. The

35:11

thickest the deer going to be in

35:13

the other elevation. Basically,

35:17

Yeah, that makes sense. Justin would

35:19

you add anything to to that question

35:22

about how time of year might impact

35:24

where they choose to bed. Yeah,

35:26

absolutely, I think Joe spot on them

35:28

there. Um. I will

35:30

say I think Joe hunts, and I don't

35:33

know you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Joe. But I think

35:36

um in the hunt more

35:38

rugged terrain up in

35:42

the hills here, like I said, with the rolling

35:44

hills, um, I will see a bit

35:46

lower UM,

35:48

and a lot I think a lot of that is

35:51

to to you know, access being

35:53

from the top and stuff. But even

35:55

in the early season and stuff, I see

35:57

him bend down lower UM,

36:00

and I don't know if it is you know, he

36:02

dropped down off in there, and it's it's generally

36:04

it's a lot cooler down there. And

36:07

the winds in the in the rolling hills will stay

36:10

I don't want to say stay consistent because they're hard.

36:12

They were consistent, but you'll fill them down in

36:14

there. The wind will still be at the back, you know, even

36:16

further down it um, because

36:19

it's more you know, if a gradual slow versus

36:22

like deep crop UM.

36:24

But yeah, I would say, I mean, Joe, I

36:27

would I would agree with all that. I

36:29

do see him bending higher, it

36:32

seems in the later season, and I think

36:34

that's you know, get up high and gets fun.

36:37

Um And on the generally

36:40

it seems like late season can pretty

36:42

much for the most

36:44

part. Anyways, from what I see, it seems like they're

36:46

betting more wind based,

36:49

and I think it's a lot of times to get

36:51

out of the wind, you know, to block the wind. Yeah,

36:55

but uh yeah, I mean I think he pretty

36:57

much get on everything. And

37:00

justin when you say you're you're seeing them that lower,

37:03

Um, is that like say half way down

37:05

the hill or yeah, I don't

37:07

want to down, I would say

37:10

a half about halfway

37:12

down, uh, Joe. Generally it

37:14

kind of depends on two you know,

37:16

where the covers at. Um. Even

37:19

in the early season. Sometimes if it's a you

37:21

know, a rather open area, it

37:23

still seems like Bill, you know, they favor the

37:25

cover. So if it the color covers,

37:28

you know, on the bottom third even I've seen him

37:30

bed down in there. Um, but

37:33

uh yeah, I would say you know

37:36

that one third. That was one thing that

37:39

I think a lot of guys around here, you

37:41

know that was preached a lot um on

37:43

the Hunt the Beast, uh,

37:45

and I agree with it in most

37:47

cases, but I believe that you

37:50

know, on the rolling hills there's exceptions

37:53

to that and there, but they're just kind

37:55

of bed. I mean, if you get a stronger win day

37:57

or bed and lower light variable

37:59

winds, think like they do that a little bit higher.

38:02

Um, if there's so many variables those situations

38:04

on with that. Uh, but

38:07

yeah, I

38:09

wanna circle back

38:11

around to the bulls real quick

38:14

because, uh,

38:16

justin you and I had this conversation.

38:18

You told me that you see some of your your

38:21

biggest, most mature deer bed

38:23

in those bowls, and they seem almost bulletproof.

38:26

And I after you said that, I

38:28

started thinking back because most of my hill country

38:30

has been in Ohio, Iowa,

38:35

and a little bit in Indiana and then in

38:37

Kentucky. And there was an early

38:39

season several years ago where

38:42

Um, I was hunting a pretty nice

38:45

buck and he was betted in that same type

38:47

of train feature like a bowl, and

38:50

I couldn't get in there without getting

38:53

busted because I just

38:55

could not get a consistent wind. And I got

38:57

I went in there twice and got busted twice. But

39:02

Joe, you I asked

39:04

you about that, and you

39:07

have found uh unique Uh

39:10

circumstance are a set of conditions

39:12

that you feel like you can hunt that effectively.

39:16

Yeah, um,

39:20

some of the time. And then I'll conclude

39:22

this with a story about how it didn't work this

39:24

year on me. But uh,

39:28

yeah, so I see

39:30

that too, and I think it's because

39:32

of the popularity, um, the spreading

39:35

popularity of you know, hill country

39:37

hunting, and people focus on leeward

39:39

slope, the military crest,

39:42

the classic places where dear do

39:44

move. But once the pressure

39:46

is on up on the ridges, then you

39:48

know, like I've said, I've seen that push down lower

39:51

and the justice point. You

39:53

know, I would stress to everybody listening,

39:56

you know, think about how steep your

39:58

hills are and if they're more role versus

40:01

steep enough that a deer doesn't want to travel

40:03

up and down it very easily. Um,

40:07

you know, that really changes how

40:09

they use it. And if they can bed

40:11

you know, the entire slope versus they

40:13

could you know, only top and bottom it's so

40:15

steep, that's that's a big difference. Um.

40:18

So down in those bowls, um,

40:21

I have found there's two kind of two circumstances

40:25

UM, that I found consistent

40:27

WHIM and I'm I'm a fanatic

40:30

about this. Like in the off season, I'm carrying

40:32

milk weed with me scouting and

40:35

sometimes if I like, I don't carry

40:37

all the time, but I'll carry a couple of sticks and I'll

40:39

try to get up in a tree and I'll drop milk weed, like

40:41

in the spring, UM and just see

40:44

what it does. UM. And I'll take note

40:46

of those weather conditions

40:49

and you know, try to figure out if I

40:51

can have a consistent air current down low. So

40:53

I've done a lot of experimenting UM.

40:56

And I like situations

40:58

where there's almost no whin and

41:00

so the predominant activities just thermals

41:04

um. That's a little tricky because

41:06

of course you've got a thermal switch. UM.

41:08

But say even like

41:10

a cool, overcast day, you don't

41:13

have much for rising thermals um,

41:15

and the thermal switch might be happening pretty early

41:18

in the afternoon or late in the morning, UM,

41:21

and you can get like a consistent I really like

41:23

those consistent down draft you know, early

41:25

in the morning and down at night. And I set

41:27

up right next to usually a big bowl. It

41:29

usually it's got a ditch or something. And if I

41:31

set up right next to that ditch, that's

41:34

getting pulled down into the ditch fairly fairly

41:36

well, um, and you can have a

41:38

safe hunt that way, um.

41:41

And the other circumstances. The opposite

41:43

is a screaming wind over the hill over top,

41:46

and this is usually for those deeper hills

41:49

and um, this

41:51

is something I don't know. It might

41:53

be my favorite tactic. Get a screaming

41:56

wind wind over a ridge, coming

41:58

across the ridge and you're you're on the leeward

42:00

side, except I'm way down at the bottom of

42:02

the leeward side um, or wherever

42:05

the deer are down low um,

42:07

and the air is getting pulled back up that

42:09

leeward side. So it's actually,

42:12

um, it's a vacuum effect. That's what's causing

42:14

it. It's not a rising therminal. It's a

42:16

vacuum effect. Um. And if I

42:18

get a twenty plus nine hour sustained

42:21

wind over the ridge, I know I'm going to usually

42:23

have a consistent updraft. UM. The Turkey

42:25

thing there is wind dies down a

42:27

lot of time. You know, first light, last

42:30

light, there's a big buck around

42:32

that's bag because then it starts to get swirling, but if

42:34

you have that consistent wind. I've

42:36

had situations where I have a consistent

42:39

updraft and I'm dropping milkweed

42:41

and it's going right over my head all the

42:43

time. Like it's impossible for

42:45

a deer smell on me unless it's fly it, you

42:48

know. Um. And

42:50

I love those situations because deer

42:52

they think they're in this bulletproof situation

42:55

down low where they're used to smell

42:57

and everything, and I can get in there. Um.

43:00

And I've killed a couple of big bucks doing that. UM,

43:04

So you know that sounds all

43:06

good and it works. I've got proof.

43:09

But this year I was after a

43:11

big old buck, um, big

43:15

nine point typical split T

43:17

two's and uh

43:19

um he loved a bed on a low low

43:22

benches around this big bowl. Uh,

43:24

real rugged terrain. Um,

43:26

and he loved to bed down there. Well,

43:28

the bulls was kind of oriented northwest

43:31

southeast, so with the northwest

43:33

wind, uh, it was kind of

43:36

I was going for a light northwest wind and

43:38

a falling thermal. Those were aligned

43:40

going down into the bowl. And

43:43

UM, I set up right by the ditch. Um.

43:45

He'd been there last year. This is the circumstances

43:48

there. Last year, I checked my camera. Once I knew

43:50

he was on camera. Um, I

43:52

knew he was around this, he was alive. I

43:54

figured he's done in the same spot. He was six

43:57

years old this year, I estimated, and

44:00

mid October. Um it was the

44:02

second week October, I think, um my

44:05

first or second out of the season. Um,

44:09

and I set up got it. I snuck

44:11

in there, up the ditch, called

44:13

up a tree, perfect and

44:15

that while the old deer he just dropped down

44:17

into the bowl. And he dropped down into the ditch,

44:20

which I never thought he would, about six

44:22

yards down wind and I saw him, you know, and

44:24

then he he he was down

44:27

wind to me, but he was up on the rim

44:29

of the ditch, and I did

44:31

not think he couldn't smell me. My son

44:33

was getting pulled down into this ditch. The ditch was

44:35

fairly big. It was probably thirty feet across. And

44:38

they dropped down to the ditch and boom, up came

44:40

his head and that was that, you know. So he was murdered.

44:42

Me. Now I had the last laugh because I put my brother

44:45

down there a few weeks later, and not in exacts up

44:47

but nearby, and um he killed

44:49

him in early November. UM, so

44:51

he's dead, but um,

44:54

you know it was it's turkey. Hunting low

44:56

is turkey. Hunting hills in general's turkey

44:58

with their currents. The hunting low is really a turkey,

45:00

So be prepared to screw

45:02

up. Definitely.

45:06

Yeah, justin have you ever have you ever attempted,

45:09

uh anything or found a way to successfully

45:11

hunt those those balls, well,

45:14

like in the rolling hills and stuff. I understand

45:16

what Joe's saying, and I can see that

45:18

in the steeper train. Um, and it may

45:21

still you may still get that instant situations

45:23

with you know, the more gently

45:26

rolling hills, but from

45:30

my experience, it's

45:32

just really hard to get any kind of a consistent

45:35

wind in there. Um. I

45:37

did find kind of a unique

45:39

situation a few years ago, and

45:41

uh it actually ended up being the biggest

45:44

buck after put an arrow through. Um.

45:47

What this situation was, there

45:49

was a couple of guys that had found some

45:51

find down on this bolt and they were

45:54

they basically set up camp. They

45:57

put a ladder stand down on the bottom, They put

45:59

a uh hanging on

46:02

on the side of this bridge, and

46:04

I found it that the spring

46:06

before that. I went in there to check it out, you

46:08

know, because I do a lot of kind of in season scouting

46:11

check in areas, and I'm looking

46:13

for first sign in and around the

46:15

perimeters of these bed in areas. But

46:18

I knew that buck was in there. It was a great bed in area.

46:20

Um. And once I've seen

46:22

all that sign I've seen these ribbons and everything, I just

46:25

kind of my billo. Well, then fast

46:27

forward to that following

46:29

spring, I went back in there and noticed

46:31

the sign there. The buck was back in

46:34

there. You see, the bed was being used.

46:36

So the following year I was

46:39

waiting for So let's

46:41

see how this It's set up like

46:44

the head of the bowl, so

46:46

it's kind of a C shaped, you know bowl.

46:49

The head of the bowl would have been facing to

46:51

the west. Um.

46:53

The buck was betting kind of on

46:55

the southern side of the slope.

46:58

But when coming over his back and

47:00

I waited on a day it was eighty five degrees

47:03

it was early

47:05

October, and the wind was blowing out of

47:07

the southwest. Well, it was blowing

47:09

kind of over the head of this pole

47:12

and then down into the bowl, blowing kind

47:14

of with it out toward the mouth of it. And

47:18

I set up on basically

47:20

on the mouth of this bole as

47:22

this buck dropped down off this point. He was swinging

47:25

around, slinging down lower that bowl because

47:27

there was still stand in

47:29

there, and accountdent that deer was

47:32

checking that area out. For

47:34

one, I think most of the time to see him

47:37

in the early season, it was rather thick down in there,

47:39

so I think he would just safely drop down off

47:41

this while I was set up on the northern side.

47:44

And as he swung around got a whip, everything

47:47

was clear and nobody was down on the bottom. He carried on

47:49

about his white and he come on up, got an here on. Most

47:52

of the time on the bowls, for me, I

47:55

have to find either how they're entering or

47:57

exiting the bowl in order to get another

48:00

And a lot of times, I'll be honest, it has to be like

48:04

on the front or something like that. It seems like

48:06

these big old deers they just dropped down

48:08

off and then things and they kind of hang

48:10

up in there in the evenings and me and

48:12

by the time they make it out of them,

48:14

you're not getting a shot at it, or

48:17

they dip into them, you know, way too early in

48:19

the morning. Um, I

48:21

will say, if you can find, if

48:23

you know how that deer's entering that

48:26

and you can manipulate the wind, you know, get

48:28

blowing or get just down,

48:31

you know, to where your thermals will be falling, dropping

48:33

one further off to where he can't get it. But

48:37

yeah, I mean I've had my poet more

48:40

times than I've been successful in the balls. I'll say

48:42

that, m justin,

48:45

you're um most of the time

48:47

when you're seeing a buck bedded around the side

48:49

of a bowl, are you seeing it? Use

48:51

them like that? It sounds like you are, Like

48:54

when they get up, they're dropping down

48:56

in you know, whether they're going across

48:58

or at least you know so they you that's

49:00

why they're there, right,

49:04

And like you said earlier, a lot of

49:06

times down in those bottoms, or

49:08

at least from my experience, I find a lot of sign

49:10

a lot of scrapes, a lot of rubs, and that's

49:12

what drew the attention to those guys camped

49:15

down. Yeah, they set up

49:17

right over this stuff in that you know, obviously

49:19

it's betting up on that side and you can watch

49:22

that or

49:24

hear them or whateverthing. So yeah,

49:27

but yeah, I see the same thing justin

49:33

you mentioned Sorry, any I'll jump in really

49:35

quick. You had mentioned that

49:38

one of the better ways you've found to actually

49:41

hunt those spots is to find where they're

49:43

entering and exiting the bowl, because that's a little

49:45

bit safer for you, Um,

49:47

for someone listening who doesn't

49:50

exactly know how to pinpoint that entrance

49:52

or exit. Could you describe what

49:54

it is you're looking for to help you determine that,

49:57

Yeah, this is how they're getting in and out the

50:00

times saddles, To be quite honest with you,

50:02

Um, if there's a slight little

50:04

saddle that kind of dips off into

50:07

that bowl, Gosh, a lot

50:09

of times if that there is going to cross

50:11

that in daylight hours, it's gonna be through

50:13

something that something where um,

50:16

you know he's safe and secure, not

50:19

gonna be skyline. Um.

50:21

And then a lot of times too, you know there's

50:23

there may not be signed right on top

50:26

of the ridge as far as like a rub or

50:28

a scrape or something like that, but

50:31

you can generally find sign kind

50:34

of leading in or out of those bowls,

50:36

you know, on the ridge there. Um.

50:39

But yeah, I be honestly, a lot

50:41

of them I've seen dip through staddles, and

50:43

it may not be a big obvious sattle that shows

50:45

up on a Topo map. Sometimes

50:48

you just have to get out there and and gout

50:51

it and you'll just see a a slight little

50:53

dip in the in the ridge there, and that's

50:55

where that will dip through. Yea.

50:58

From my own it's

51:00

someone one of my favorite. Uh, Like,

51:03

saddles are important, but the bigger ones

51:05

to attract hunters pretty easily. So, like

51:07

you mentioned the ones when you find

51:09

one that might drop you know, five ft

51:12

or tennessee from the ridge.

51:14

Yeah, you can't see it on a TAPO

51:17

until you're walking through it and you're like, oh, you

51:19

know, only my head sticking out, you know along

51:22

the ridge. Those are those

51:24

can be lethal. Yeah.

51:27

Yeah, So that the

51:30

hunt example that you just gave justin reminded

51:32

me of something. Um, those guys

51:34

were kind of set up in the bottom there where where

51:38

there was some sign down there. And I remember seeing

51:40

that you sent me that map at Topo, which

51:42

was really cool to see how that hunt and folded

51:45

by the way, but I remember the it

51:47

was that, I remember it too. Yeah,

51:49

yeah, that bottom was relatively

51:53

tight, um, and I know I

51:55

remember you know on

51:57

the beast, you know, the consensus

52:00

is, you know, don't hunt the bottoms, stay out of the

52:02

bottoms, and it

52:04

was it was ironic because every

52:06

time I read that, or when I was

52:08

reading that, there was actually

52:11

um a spot in Iowa that

52:14

UM I had killed

52:17

two bucks um two

52:20

years or two times that I hunted

52:22

it in a row when I drew the tag, and then my

52:24

my buddy killed one out of the same stand

52:27

as a couple of trees over but same

52:29

area. And it was in the bottom. But

52:32

what was unique about this bottom

52:34

and Joe, you touched about on this a

52:36

little bit ago, but it was it was a wide

52:38

bottom um. So what

52:41

I loved about this spot was um

52:45

it was where several points

52:47

dropped down into the same

52:50

direction. So there was like four or five

52:52

points that were kind of all pointed down

52:54

into this bottom,

52:56

pointed in the general

52:59

same area point of this general same direction,

53:02

and

53:04

at the bottom was actually like a

53:07

like an overgrown like set aside field.

53:09

And I would hunt that

53:11

that bottom ran east

53:14

and west, so anytime I had

53:17

a west wind, I could

53:19

get basically where all those

53:21

points dumped down and converge. There

53:23

was a lot of travel coming up and down

53:26

those points and criss crossing, and I would get right

53:28

at the bottom where all those travel

53:31

routes converged with that west

53:33

wind, but I would be just on the east side

53:35

of where most of the criss

53:37

crossing was going. And

53:40

man, it was like, honestly,

53:42

it literally would

53:45

be like one sit and and I'm not super

53:47

picky, like you know, I'm coming from Michigan. It's

53:50

an out of state trip back. Then I would have two

53:52

or three days to hunt. So I was shooting the first,

53:54

you know, good buck that came by. But

53:57

it was every time I had that wind,

53:59

and it was in November. Man,

54:02

the amount of deer I saw in

54:04

bucks I saw cruising down through that

54:06

area and I don't remember ever getting really

54:08

busted as long as I had that consistent

54:11

wind. But um, I mean it was

54:13

it was quick, you know. I mean, if you're gonna

54:15

wait for a five six year old buck, you know, a hundred

54:18

fifty sixty inches or something might be a different

54:20

story. But I was able to get an

54:22

arrow in a good buck really

54:24

quickly in that type of scenario. You

54:26

have, you guys, ever found anything like that? Yeah,

54:29

I got the first question for you, Andy, where

54:31

the bucks moving in like that? You've

54:33

seen down there moving consistently,

54:35

you know, with that wind like where they're using in a confiscent

54:38

way or they move in a consistent direction.

54:41

Did you find her? Well, it

54:45

just seemed like, honestly, it was it

54:47

was always in that kind of November

54:51

or through the ninth time

54:53

frame. It's just seemed like a

54:55

lot of cruising

54:57

going on. To be honest with you, it looked like they

55:00

were kind of more doing like point A to point B,

55:02

but they were using these points as travel

55:04

routes and they were crossing that

55:07

bottom um kind

55:09

of and that you know there there was like probably a seventy

55:11

five yard radius where all

55:13

those those ridges dumped down

55:15

are those points dumped down, And there

55:17

was tons and tons of buck signed

55:20

right there in the bottom straps all

55:22

around the edge. It was a set aside field and

55:24

there was a lot of young uh you know,

55:26

young tree drowth down there, like sapling

55:29

sized trees, and it was just

55:31

shredded. I mean, it had everything you'd want

55:33

as far as his buck signed um,

55:36

I mean, dose would come down off and there'd be

55:38

you know, bucks following the dough. It was just a constant

55:40

action. It was just one of those spots that was just dynamite.

55:43

But I always remember that because everybody

55:45

was staying, never hunt the bottoms. But I

55:48

think, and we've talked about

55:50

this a little bit, it's it's those steep

55:52

bottoms that are really tough to hunt.

55:54

It you get, you get one that as a

55:57

decent width on it, if

55:59

you hunt it with the right wind, you can hunt it effectively.

56:02

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I

56:04

got a question for you, Andy on that was that?

56:07

And you may have mentioned this, was it rather steep

56:09

the rain around there or was it more like

56:11

gently bowling hills or I

56:13

would say it's more probably what you're used

56:16

to. Um. The only

56:18

the only place I've hunted um

56:22

that I think might be

56:24

comparable to what a lot of the stuff Joe

56:27

hunts is is southern Ohio and then

56:29

one spot in Kentucky.

56:31

And uh so, most most of my

56:33

hill country I think has been more rolling

56:37

to you know, medium

56:39

size hills, not a ton of real

56:41

steep, steep country. Yeah,

56:44

I've got any example like that, like you were just mentioning,

56:47

umactly taught that me and my dad both

56:50

killed We've actually killed a few

56:52

bucks out of and it's the wide bottom

56:54

of the bottom itself is probably gosh,

56:57

a hundred fifty yards wide or something

56:59

like it, and we have found

57:01

some very very consistent cruising

57:04

and it's it's very similar to what

57:06

you're saying. There's a lot of points that kind

57:08

of shut right down into this

57:10

bottom and it's just

57:13

I don't know, it's it's always held a lot of deer. There

57:15

is a a field kind of

57:17

out from it um and the deer

57:19

kind of you know, kind of hug

57:22

that kind of like an inside corner um.

57:24

But they got down through there and we've had a lot of

57:27

right down in that bottom on you

57:30

know, specific wind. Uh.

57:32

Yeah, it's

57:35

Joe, I think you you've described that.

57:37

You call that a thermal hub. Correct, Yeah,

57:40

yeah, so it's um thermal hubs. So

57:43

I do believe they are using that

57:45

to their sent advantage. But

57:48

it is also the reason these

57:51

hubs um they're

57:53

also a terrain hub

57:55

too. It's not just scent, but

57:58

when you have both those line up, when it's

58:00

the shortest distance from A to B and

58:02

a deer, a buck can go through

58:04

there and sent a lot

58:06

of those surrounding points. He can

58:09

know if there's a dope up there or I

58:12

really think they use it for their defense too.

58:14

I think they can check

58:17

if there's hunters on the surrounding ridges by

58:19

drumping down in those areas, so you

58:22

know, they check what's around

58:24

them and it's the fastest

58:27

and you know, the most secure point

58:29

from point A to point B. That's

58:31

when there, that's when those

58:34

super hot spuss like you guys described.

58:37

I've you know a few of those two and

58:39

then um,

58:42

often it's like one specific

58:45

or maybe two specific winds.

58:47

Usually it's one specific wind you can

58:49

get hunt out there. It's

58:52

like you just have to sit, you know, and

58:54

you might not get that wind one one one

58:56

season. You know, I've been there where

58:59

I'm like, yeah, you know, you know it

59:01

deers in the area. You know, you know it's a

59:03

hot spot that time of year. You don't have to wind,

59:06

don't even try it down well you know. Yeah,

59:09

I'm sure you guys have been there too,

59:11

and you know you push it and never

59:14

never seems to work when you push it with the wind,

59:16

or you get that wind and you can't hunt that night. Yeah

59:19

exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

59:24

I wanna. I wanna two things. Number

59:26

One, Um, I've seen this exact

59:28

same thing you're describing too in in my southern

59:31

Ohio spots. The one spot I've hunted a decent

59:33

bit of of hill country and

59:35

and the exact thing. It seems like they'll be just a certain

59:38

angle that you'll get that one consistent wind

59:40

if you've got it. Um. But I just want to make

59:42

one simple observation

59:45

for people that are listening, UM

59:48

to just kind of simplify a little bit.

59:50

A lot of the examples you guys

59:52

have all pointed to have all related

59:55

to a turkey foot as

59:57

you described it earlier, Joe, but

1:00:00

in two different versions. There's

1:00:02

the you could say, there's the turkey

1:00:04

foot pointing down, which

1:00:07

would be where all the fingers

1:00:09

are pointing down. And that's the situation that you were talking

1:00:12

about earlier today, Joe, when you're talking about hunting

1:00:14

up top where those ridges and there's multiple

1:00:16

ridges that come up to uh

1:00:19

to a pinch point of sorts, where you would be at the

1:00:21

top of those and all these ridges come up

1:00:23

to it. So you've got the the downward

1:00:25

facing turkey foot you want to hunt high,

1:00:28

and then there's the inverted turkey foot

1:00:30

where the ridges and the points are

1:00:32

coming down to the bottom, and that's

1:00:34

when you'd want to hunt low. In these spots

1:00:36

that you're all describing. Assuming you can get the right wind.

1:00:39

So so just a simple observation,

1:00:42

look for those turkey foot type situations

1:00:44

and take note is that the upward facing

1:00:46

or the downward facing, and that's going to help you determine

1:00:49

where that sweet spot of activity will likely

1:00:51

be if you can get the wind right put

1:00:54

it. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's very

1:00:56

good. It's it's exactly it's the same feature.

1:00:59

It's just exactly how you put it.

1:01:01

You know, whether it's the top of the ridges or

1:01:04

the bottom that makes that kind of

1:01:06

hand shape, you know pattern.

1:01:10

Yeah, So I got a question

1:01:12

here in um

1:01:15

I'm guessing or I guess I'm hoping

1:01:17

that the answer is varied a little

1:01:19

bit, but maybe they won't. But if

1:01:23

I took you guys down

1:01:25

to an area you're not familiar

1:01:27

with, southern Ohio, Kentucky,

1:01:30

down in Indiana hill country, something you

1:01:33

had never hunted before, and

1:01:36

you had one week during

1:01:38

both season to get an arrow in a mature book,

1:01:42

what just give me your kind

1:01:45

of overall uh game

1:01:48

plan, your strategy from

1:01:53

the second you get boots on the ground, you

1:01:55

leave your vehicle two

1:01:59

the day you shoot that dear, and I would want I

1:02:01

want two examples. I want one where

1:02:03

let's call it just early season, you

1:02:06

know, mid October, and then let's do

1:02:08

the same thing more

1:02:11

pre run those last couple of days

1:02:13

of October into the

1:02:16

first you know, week

1:02:18

and a half in November. So let's let's

1:02:20

start with you, Justin. And while you're

1:02:22

thinking about your answer, Justin, I just

1:02:24

gotta say, isn't this guy damn

1:02:27

good at hosting? I feel like Andy's gonna steal my job.

1:02:29

He's got some good

1:02:31

questions here now

1:02:37

exactly, all

1:02:40

right, take it away, Justin. Okay,

1:02:42

So we talked about points. We

1:02:44

talked about areas that you know, Buck

1:02:47

took me bad early season

1:02:50

for me and Andy. I know. You know, listen, Joe,

1:02:52

I think too. And

1:02:54

I'm probably more aggressive than most

1:02:56

of your guys in the hills, um, even

1:02:59

on stuff that I know. Oh, I'm one

1:03:01

of those guys that's not afraid to go bump here

1:03:03

up and I do that a lot. And

1:03:05

I have killed a

1:03:07

lot of my books by

1:03:10

doing that and getting back in there stay

1:03:12

a couple of days later. And as

1:03:14

both you know, Joe and Eady, no,

1:03:17

I've killed several of them coming right back

1:03:19

in that same day. UM, So

1:03:21

that's gonna be my go to if

1:03:23

I've got a short period of time that i can go

1:03:26

on a new piece of ground that you

1:03:29

know that I've never been on, never stepped foot on.

1:03:31

Man, I'm going to aggressive. I'm going right

1:03:33

forward, where's these deer bed and I'm

1:03:36

going to bump him up, and I'm gonna look the area

1:03:38

over and then based on

1:03:40

what I find from there, then i'll

1:03:42

hunt up boarding, you know. So

1:03:44

what I think my best cancer to get

1:03:46

the crack at that there is, um

1:03:49

and it may be that same day. Um. I'm

1:03:51

not opposed to bumping

1:03:53

a deer up depending on how

1:03:55

I spook him. If if I get him up, you

1:03:57

know, and and he didn't get my wind,

1:04:00

I feel confident in that. I've seen a lot of

1:04:02

them turn and come right back in there

1:04:04

or swing down wind of it, you know, um,

1:04:07

and try to figure out what that was that bumped

1:04:09

them up. UM,

1:04:12

So that would be kind of what I'm doing. And

1:04:14

I'm obviously I'm going to look, you know, for the

1:04:17

for the thicker stuff. If there's any type

1:04:19

of don't agg nearby, I'm probably

1:04:21

gonna look at the secondary points of stuff

1:04:24

that shut off the major ridge nearby that

1:04:27

m bowls you don't think that we had mentioned.

1:04:30

Hey, justin real quick, I'm sorry.

1:04:32

I don't mean to interrupt, but no, you're funny. Go

1:04:34

ahead, this bump a dump thing.

1:04:36

And we've talked about this, and you you pull

1:04:38

this off more than anyone I know,

1:04:41

and you purposely do it, which

1:04:43

I think is just so cool. Um,

1:04:47

so correct me if I'm wrong here, Like

1:04:49

uh, I would assume

1:04:53

you know, if you're gonna purposefully

1:04:55

do that, you're you're gonna you're gonna try to do this

1:04:59

fairly early in the day obviously when they're

1:05:01

beded, so you're gonna wait probably pass you know, mid

1:05:03

morning at least, maybe going around

1:05:06

lunchtime, maybe you know, one

1:05:08

one o'clock, eleven to one o'clock somewhere

1:05:10

in there. And obviously

1:05:12

you're playing the wind, your winds in your favor, um,

1:05:15

and you have an area that

1:05:17

you're targeting based on wind

1:05:20

direction in the train features that you've looked

1:05:22

at on the map, and you're gonna kind of slip

1:05:24

through there, and you're trying

1:05:26

to you're trying to bump this deer like

1:05:30

a soft bump. You don't want this deer to

1:05:32

smell you. Um,

1:05:34

if he sees you or hears you. Not a

1:05:36

big deal. Um, that's

1:05:38

kind of the goal. But it's you want a soft

1:05:40

bump, not a violent bump, or

1:05:43

you know you damn near step on him,

1:05:45

or you don't want him to to wind you. And

1:05:47

then once he's gone, you're quickly analyzing

1:05:51

the situation and estimating

1:05:53

where you think that deer is going to circle back

1:05:56

down win to scent, check that bed

1:05:58

and come back. And you've had great luck

1:06:01

even on the same day of

1:06:03

deer doing that. And I also would assume

1:06:05

if you sat there that

1:06:08

that afternoon and he didn't come back, you'd

1:06:10

probably give it one more sit in the morning. Would

1:06:12

that be accurate statement? That would be accurate?

1:06:14

Maybe even another touch shot, you know, the

1:06:17

following day, because I have seen to

1:06:20

where and again this is gonna be win. I

1:06:22

mean, say you jump him off of a point,

1:06:25

you know, on a northwest wind or whatever

1:06:27

in the next day is gonna be stout. Well, that could change

1:06:29

things up. Um,

1:06:31

but yeah, and you're you're absolutely correct. I'm

1:06:33

not trying to just blowing completely

1:06:36

out of the area. Ideally, you want him

1:06:38

just to kind of jump up,

1:06:40

you know, and just kind of trought off

1:06:42

because I've seen that, and that's when

1:06:44

I have had the best

1:06:47

luck at him coming right back in that

1:06:49

that same day. And a lot of times things

1:06:51

like they hear me more so

1:06:53

than than seeing and obviously not

1:06:55

smelling me. Um, they'll just kind of just

1:06:58

kind of, you know, shut off, like a deer that

1:07:01

spooked, but not uh, they're not running

1:07:04

out of the country by thing. And

1:07:06

I've seen it so often to where they'll they will they'll

1:07:08

just loop around and they'll try to figure out what

1:07:10

that was. I had one um

1:07:12

that it killed a couple of years ago

1:07:16

literally came right back in on the exact

1:07:18

trail that I walked into

1:07:21

when I bumped him and he was filling the green.

1:07:23

I'm sure that dear thought that

1:07:25

that whatever it was, just like a coyote.

1:07:27

If they run through and they bump them up, they probably circle

1:07:30

around and do the same thing, come right back

1:07:32

in there that since you know, an hour old,

1:07:34

now that whatever it was has long gone,

1:07:37

they slipped right back into the bedding area. Um.

1:07:40

The only problem for him was I was still in there.

1:07:43

I was still in there, and I was actually looking it over

1:07:46

to pick a tree for the following day.

1:07:48

And that hunt really opened my eye to

1:07:51

it on you know, killing him on the same

1:07:53

day, but I have done

1:07:55

it and then you know, came back the following

1:07:57

day or two days later, even five days later

1:08:00

and kill them coming out of there. So

1:08:03

that would be my my go to in the early seasons.

1:08:05

UM for the free run, I'm

1:08:07

probably gonna do the

1:08:10

same thing, only I'm gonna be paying the more

1:08:12

attention to where like the dough pockets are,

1:08:14

the dough groups are, and then look

1:08:16

at some sign you know, in and around them, maybe

1:08:19

trying to even bump up some does trying to figure

1:08:21

out exactly where they're laying down it and

1:08:23

then looking you know it's down winds of those

1:08:26

areas and trying to find

1:08:29

setup accordingly

1:08:31

do that, Yes, would be my my

1:08:34

go too. There's uh

1:08:36

I want to tell this story real quickly because

1:08:39

it just it just it's

1:08:43

uh the epitome of the type

1:08:45

of hunter you are justin and

1:08:47

I don't don't even know if this was hill country. You can

1:08:50

allude to that, but that's more to do with your

1:08:52

style. But you hunted

1:08:54

uh different state

1:08:56

this year. I'm not gonna dive into it, but it's it's actually

1:08:59

uh spot that I told you about m

1:09:02

and um just

1:09:04

so happened that I knew several

1:09:06

hunters that were hunting that same

1:09:08

piece of public land while you

1:09:11

were there, including one

1:09:13

of the very best, John eberhard Um,

1:09:16

and several other very

1:09:19

accomplished hunters. And

1:09:23

I don't think he was there that long, but

1:09:25

some of those guys were there during

1:09:28

your two weeks, um,

1:09:30

and it sounds like it was some tough

1:09:32

hunting, tons of pressure, and

1:09:37

you are the only person out

1:09:40

of all those people that pulled

1:09:42

a deer out of there, and you pulled an absolute

1:09:44

giant out of there in just a few days,

1:09:47

and uh, it was just incredible.

1:09:50

I mean it was just incredible. Um.

1:09:52

But in you know, you

1:09:55

told that we talked about this hunt, and you were on

1:09:57

foot doing just exactly

1:09:59

what you're talking about. Uh A

1:10:01

lot of the time, kind of still hunting, trying

1:10:04

to get into, you

1:10:07

know, where a big buck was

1:10:09

living, and if you needed to get him

1:10:11

up on his feet and bump him, then so be it, because

1:10:13

then now you know what you're hunting. But

1:10:16

I don't know, I just did that. I

1:10:18

dude, actually kicked that deer. I'm I'm

1:10:21

almost a hunter percent to andy that I kicked

1:10:23

that deer up. I didn't. I didn't actually

1:10:25

see him take off. I just I've

1:10:27

heard him. I got up there to the bed, I looked

1:10:29

it over. There was plenty of signing there, and

1:10:32

I think I killed him two days

1:10:34

later coming back into the general

1:10:37

area. That was just a giant

1:10:39

zealous giants. This

1:10:44

is justin is so good

1:10:46

at that. I would I Andy said

1:10:48

it just stay here from me too,

1:10:51

like this is where he like,

1:10:54

I've never seen anything like that. You know that that just

1:10:56

fair woodsmanship. I'll

1:10:59

understand. Then the deer um

1:11:02

you mentioned something justin that I wanted

1:11:05

to kind of call out, and that's you

1:11:07

said. You know, when they get

1:11:09

bumped, they come back. They don't pay as

1:11:11

much attention to your sign your

1:11:13

ground set. And I think that's

1:11:15

true. And so a

1:11:18

big buck moving through the woods gets

1:11:21

human scent. He's on the move. If

1:11:24

he locks up, he's worried. But

1:11:27

he gets bumped out of somewhere. Deer

1:11:31

places they live in North America. They're

1:11:34

running into humans. You know, they're getting

1:11:36

bumped up by people.

1:11:39

So they get bumped up. And if he gets bumped

1:11:41

up, maybe he knew you were a hunter a human.

1:11:44

Um I do agree, Like once,

1:11:47

if they smell you, thoughts go way down.

1:11:49

But um,

1:11:53

I think that um

1:11:57

the um,

1:12:00

I think that the

1:12:02

deer if they get bumped up and come back,

1:12:04

they knew somebody was walking through there, so they're

1:12:07

like, oh, yeah, he was there two hours ago,

1:12:09

and then he dies because Johnathan was still standing

1:12:11

there, you know. So, um

1:12:14

that's what they like. I think they're less

1:12:16

worry about ground sent under those

1:12:18

specific circumstances. You know, not

1:12:21

gonna say. I mean, they might still lock up, but

1:12:23

they seem to. If they think it's just somebody

1:12:25

moving through, they're

1:12:27

less worried, and they'll come and they'll be worried

1:12:30

coming back. They'll probably sneak try to

1:12:32

sneak back in, but it's not like

1:12:35

them being on the move and then hitting

1:12:37

ground cent that's when they freak out.

1:12:40

You know, we're already yeah,

1:12:42

yeah, spot on with it. Though. I actually got

1:12:45

to watch that year from

1:12:48

probably a good and I'm talking about a year

1:12:50

until a few years ago. Um, I got to

1:12:52

watch him that I like, I said, I bumped

1:12:54

him on the same day he made a loop

1:12:57

and came back in and I got him. But I

1:12:59

watched him coming into the bed from

1:13:01

a good I don't know, eighty

1:13:03

ninety yards, you know, and it's

1:13:05

just like a big buck moved through the woods.

1:13:08

I mean he without a doubt, he had his nose

1:13:10

to the ground, was spelling where I was. They

1:13:12

could be steps. He stopped and he's just stand there

1:13:14

and you know you'd look around. I

1:13:16

mean he did that all the way and it took him forever to

1:13:19

get in there. And uh, to

1:13:21

say I held it together, it

1:13:23

would be a lie. I was shaking like a leaf as

1:13:25

you coming back in. But but it

1:13:28

worked out, and that really opened

1:13:30

my eyes to that. Uh. Like I said,

1:13:32

I wasn't I wasn't there on purpose to

1:13:34

do that that day. I was looking

1:13:37

the area over, but it just

1:13:39

so happened that I caught, you know, I caught

1:13:41

movement out of the corner of my eye, and um,

1:13:43

the restless history. You know, it worked out. So but

1:13:46

I can tell you a lot of stories too that where

1:13:49

you know, I've jumped the deer up and

1:13:52

I you know, I set up for whatever they they

1:13:54

would come back, and he did so. Yeah,

1:13:57

And because of course it doesn't always work. I

1:13:59

got a couple of follo up questions on that UM

1:14:02

number one we

1:14:05

hear about this bump and dump tactic, and

1:14:07

it makes sense, but it seems like the real

1:14:09

crux, like the real trick that separates

1:14:12

your average Joe from the guy like you

1:14:14

who's actually getting it done. And that wasn't

1:14:16

a knock on you, Joe, You're no average show.

1:14:20

I really admit I'm not really good

1:14:22

at this tactic, Like I don't have a lot

1:14:24

of confidence in it. Then let us

1:14:26

say it's not because it doesn't work, you know,

1:14:28

so feel feel free to use my name. I

1:14:31

believe it works. It's just Justin's

1:14:33

great at this. So then what separates

1:14:36

what separates you from average Joe here on the

1:14:38

line is that the

1:14:40

trick seems to be in picking

1:14:43

the right tree for the setup. Like

1:14:46

that seems to be the really tricky spot is figuring

1:14:48

out the way to set up, in anticipating

1:14:50

how that buck's going to come back, in anticipating

1:14:52

how he'll use the wind um.

1:14:55

That seems just really tricky. There seems like a really narrow

1:14:57

line you've got to walk between being in the

1:14:59

right place to be close to being a range

1:15:01

of whatever that trail or where that bed is, etcetera,

1:15:04

etcetera. But then also anticipating how

1:15:06

he's reacting to this bumpyhead.

1:15:08

So question number one is I'd

1:15:11

love more detail on how you're thinking through

1:15:13

where you're going to set up. And then question

1:15:15

number two is

1:15:19

bumping dumps like this in hill country

1:15:22

is that any different than

1:15:25

in flatter terrain. I'm

1:15:27

imagining that on some of these

1:15:29

types of points or betting up

1:15:31

a high on bowls these bucks,

1:15:34

it's gonna be harder to get close to a buck like

1:15:36

that without them seeing you from a distance

1:15:38

because of their the way they use terrain

1:15:40

to their advantage. It just seems harder. I'm

1:15:42

thinking it would be harder to pull off a bump and dump

1:15:44

without a buck bumping way sooner

1:15:47

than you would ever build it close enough to know where

1:15:49

he was betted. So just curious if there's

1:15:51

anything when it comes to those types

1:15:53

of hilly situations where it's just tough

1:15:56

to get close enough to one to

1:15:58

know where that bed was. So question

1:16:00

one and to start to give you double double ammy

1:16:02

there, but give me the real details

1:16:05

on that setup in your thought process. First.

1:16:08

Well, in the hills, I think you're correct,

1:16:11

it is definitely hard to get close

1:16:13

enough to see them because I think a lot of times they

1:16:16

they get out of there before you were you

1:16:19

know, aware of something even being there. Um.

1:16:21

But then again I've also had you know, big

1:16:23

box, really old pipe an

1:16:26

area and they're

1:16:28

the heck out of you when they jump up, you know, because you're right

1:16:30

next to him or whatever. Um.

1:16:32

But in the hills, I mean, with

1:16:34

the terrain and everything, I'm usually

1:16:37

once I jump one and I feel like

1:16:39

that, you know, he didn't get my wind, um,

1:16:42

and he didn't take off the bust off out of there like

1:16:44

he was here to death. I'm usually

1:16:46

looking at the terrain around

1:16:49

um that year, I feel like it's going to try to get

1:16:51

down wind of that. So if

1:16:53

it's you know, say if it's a bowl, you

1:16:56

know, he's probably gonna try to use that other

1:16:58

side of the ridge to to come back in you

1:17:01

know, well out of cider anything. But it's

1:17:05

it's it's hard to explain

1:17:07

to the situational based on the terrain around

1:17:10

there. Um. I had a buddy and

1:17:12

I think I sent this you Andy that

1:17:15

did it. He went in and and was

1:17:17

setting up on a deer and he bumping

1:17:20

and the ridge. It was kind of like point

1:17:22

this year was fed on well then the

1:17:25

main ridge you know say,

1:17:27

extend back to the south, and then there was kind

1:17:30

of made a ninety right there. It

1:17:32

looked around down to another point

1:17:34

that dropped down. So I

1:17:36

told him, I said, well, I would slip back on

1:17:39

that bridge back there. You know that the wind

1:17:41

was blown back in that direction. And

1:17:43

sure enough that that deer just you

1:17:46

know, he dropped down off that point a circle

1:17:48

around and he started coming up this other point that would

1:17:50

have probably been about it. I don't

1:17:52

know, a hundred yards maybe eight hundred

1:17:55

yards distance between there,

1:17:58

and unfortunately he you

1:18:00

know, the shot didn't go so well. Hegnessed, but the

1:18:02

deer did. Dude, he came back and he was circling

1:18:05

back around, and I'm confident he was circling

1:18:07

back around us, you know, to figure

1:18:09

out what that was, so the

1:18:11

terrain would be um

1:18:14

the number one thing for me. I'm looking at the rain

1:18:16

and how I think that deer we'll

1:18:18

get down winto that position that I was

1:18:20

at down when his bed, how

1:18:23

he'll loop back in sture. I don't always

1:18:25

get it right, you know. There's there's definitely

1:18:27

times where, like I said, I don't see him

1:18:29

come back, and I'm sure maybe they

1:18:32

looked a little further out than I. You know, it's justipated.

1:18:34

But and what was your

1:18:36

second question there, Mark on that? Well,

1:18:39

yeah, so so one part one you kind

1:18:41

of answered both of them together. Um,

1:18:44

so it kind of worked out. But if you have anything else

1:18:46

when it comes to the thought process, I'm picking the tree

1:18:49

and or unique aspects

1:18:51

in the hills, and you kind of combined them. But if there's

1:18:54

anything else as far as picking the right tree in that

1:18:56

situation, I'll take it Otherwise. Otherwise,

1:18:58

Andy, you can jump in. Well,

1:19:00

I ticking the tree and stuff.

1:19:03

Um, actually a couple of them. I filled

1:19:06

off the ground. I did it this year. Um,

1:19:09

early season. I jumped

1:19:11

one up, actually jumped this yere

1:19:13

up right next to a road and

1:19:17

he crossed that. He ran out across the road, which

1:19:20

really shocked me that he went that direction,

1:19:22

but across the road. So I looked at

1:19:24

you know, I looked at it, um,

1:19:27

and this was I mean, it's still country, but there was

1:19:29

was kind of down off in the bottom and

1:19:31

a wide bottom. And

1:19:33

I looked it over and I knew

1:19:36

about two fifty yards down.

1:19:38

Uh, what it was is a blocket timber

1:19:41

kind of like a train in the shape blocket timber.

1:19:43

At the tip of that was a tree line

1:19:45

that went down and split this field and it's

1:19:48

kind of like in a wail. And then

1:19:50

that went down and head and you

1:19:52

know say, if you would go left, it would left let

1:19:55

off to the bigger timber to the right

1:19:57

was per centry. I felt pretty

1:19:59

confident it that that deer was head

1:20:02

in that direction. The

1:20:04

sign leading out of that um

1:20:06

pretty much told the story. So

1:20:09

after I jumped him and I was looking over that

1:20:11

timber is about an acre and a half size,

1:20:14

I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to cover all that

1:20:16

if he came back in, And as you got towards

1:20:18

the tip of that, the winds kind of got punky

1:20:21

up there. So I just

1:20:23

looked at the situation over. I thought

1:20:25

my best crack would be to move out

1:20:27

of there, kind of walk off in a direction like going

1:20:29

back to the road in case he

1:20:32

try to, you know, follow me out,

1:20:34

and uh. I walked out that direction

1:20:37

and I kind of made a loop in the field. It

1:20:39

dumped back in, dumped down off kind of in this little

1:20:41

valley, and set

1:20:44

up down there, thinking that deer would probably

1:20:46

because I bumped him I think at three in the afternoon

1:20:48

and that's when it's getting dark, at like six thirty

1:20:51

almost seven, And

1:20:53

it worked out. He came

1:20:56

back in, Um, came down through

1:20:58

there and just carried on out. Is

1:21:00

the normal, you know, normal evening

1:21:02

thinking. I was a long going and that was probably a

1:21:05

two and a half to three hour stretch in between

1:21:07

that. So as

1:21:10

far as picking the right tree, I don't know. I just have to

1:21:12

look the situation over. It's kind of

1:21:14

a got

1:21:16

feeling and sinkuble type thing,

1:21:18

I guess, you know, just being in that situation

1:21:20

because they're all they're all so different.

1:21:23

It's hard to I mean, if I had, you know, an

1:21:25

example in front of me or something, I could, you

1:21:28

know, maybe go about the insternet a little better. But yeah,

1:21:31

no, that's that's helpful. Um

1:21:35

okay, I think I think and

1:21:37

lets you want to correct me something wrong here? I think we

1:21:40

need to hear Joe. Now answer your example

1:21:42

as far as the the new property

1:21:44

in southern Ohio, Kentucky. Right, that's

1:21:47

right, Joe, so yep, brand new hill

1:21:49

country ground. Uh,

1:21:52

your strategy from start to finish

1:21:55

early season and then rut yeah,

1:21:58

um, go go yeah, um

1:22:01

going in brand new. UM.

1:22:04

I mean, I really admit it. It's distinctly

1:22:07

different from justin. UM.

1:22:10

I mean he's, as

1:22:13

you guys could tell the last that's a mensis

1:22:15

next level and that UM,

1:22:17

you know, just kind of snooping around, bumping

1:22:20

um. UM. That's that's

1:22:22

incredible. UM. He's a hunter.

1:22:24

I want to be when I go up, you

1:22:29

know, in those circumstances.

1:22:32

UM. So I

1:22:34

like, I

1:22:37

like to be efficient with my time. So

1:22:40

UM, I do a lot of scouting. I

1:22:42

pay attention two tracks, you

1:22:45

know, I pay attention to hot sign and

1:22:47

food source and all that. But really

1:22:49

just to be efficient. If I'm saying, you

1:22:51

know, it's a great big piece

1:22:53

of property. You know, it's these thousands

1:22:56

of akers, UM.

1:22:58

And I'm mapping out. I'm I'm

1:23:00

mapping out like potential betting

1:23:03

UM based on like stem

1:23:05

count and points UM,

1:23:09

terrain features, UM funnels

1:23:11

and and you know like the turkey

1:23:14

feet um that we talked about UM,

1:23:17

like on GPS, and and I'm

1:23:20

mapping all that out ahead of time so I can go

1:23:22

in. And basically I'm scouting too, and

1:23:24

I want to be like I set offficient of my time.

1:23:27

I'm going to swing a big loop through the area,

1:23:29

and I'm my goal is to cover as much

1:23:32

ground as efficiently as possible. And

1:23:35

a lot of times like I'll have my bow

1:23:37

with me, you know, and sticks

1:23:39

and tree I use a tree saddle. Um

1:23:42

so um it's

1:23:44

white mobile. And if

1:23:46

I hit a spot where I think it's

1:23:48

worth setting up, you know, say acorns

1:23:51

are fall in early season. Um,

1:23:53

and there's you know around a fresh

1:23:56

rubber two and you know, big tracks

1:23:58

and it's you know, just up the it from

1:24:01

a bunch of secondary points. Um. You

1:24:03

know. Yeah, obviously I'll be looking for a set

1:24:05

up or I might be just you

1:24:07

know, um, I'm

1:24:09

probably a little heavier handed

1:24:11

than justin I don't think I quite quite

1:24:14

as touch about stuffed and set up.

1:24:16

And I'll come through. I'll just you know, run

1:24:18

through it, but still with the mentality of like

1:24:21

if I bump something, um,

1:24:23

even if I bump it hard, I might come

1:24:25

back there, you know a few

1:24:28

days later, um,

1:24:30

and I and I have um,

1:24:34

you know done setting up

1:24:36

head deer comeback. I re really admit

1:24:38

I have not killed one doing that. I've come

1:24:40

real close a couple of times, but I

1:24:42

haven't. I don't

1:24:44

I don't lie to you. Um.

1:24:47

And it's it's and it's more just you

1:24:49

know, being good at it, you know, with practice

1:24:51

to get better at it. Um.

1:24:53

So I like to have

1:24:56

a real as

1:24:58

much as you know, I like cyber scouting

1:25:00

whatever. Um.

1:25:03

I don't have high confidence until

1:25:05

I put boots on the ground and walk through an area

1:25:07

that's kind of my angle. Um. So

1:25:10

I'll, like I said, it might

1:25:12

be five acres that I'm dealing with,

1:25:15

I'll put in eight miles

1:25:17

you know, in one day and just swing a

1:25:19

big loop and then I feel a lot more

1:25:22

comfortable about Okay, you know

1:25:25

where the dare distributed in that area? Where

1:25:27

is the food right now? You

1:25:30

know that very so much earlier season.

1:25:32

Um, and it can depend you know, are

1:25:35

the white oaks fall? And are the red oaks fall? And

1:25:37

are there any white you know, are there any coinsmence

1:25:39

woever? Are they you know? I mean

1:25:42

per Simmons, you know I just mentioned,

1:25:45

Um, there's different,

1:25:48

Um, you know early seasons

1:25:50

about what's hot right now. It's not last

1:25:52

week, it's not next week. You've really got

1:25:54

to be you know. They things shift

1:25:57

really rapidly. Um.

1:25:59

And then you know, my favorite time

1:26:01

period is like the pre rut into the early

1:26:03

ruts phases. Um, I just

1:26:06

love hunting that time period. Bucks

1:26:08

are moving more, but they're still really

1:26:10

consistent, um,

1:26:14

you know, not too erratic movement,

1:26:16

just following dose and heat before

1:26:18

any does coming there, hardly any does

1:26:20

come into astrius. So then then it's

1:26:22

more okay where the dough group and

1:26:25

the bucks are nearby. They're not necessarily

1:26:28

chasing or cruising yet, but

1:26:30

the bucks are going to keep tats on those dough

1:26:32

groups. So that's where it really I'll

1:26:35

be focusing more on those like um,

1:26:38

you know, the the high turkey feet

1:26:40

or the low turkey seat as it talked about

1:26:43

in that pre rot period, the

1:26:45

thermal hubs on

1:26:48

those spots because usually um,

1:26:50

like those turkey seats, they a lot of times have does

1:26:53

that are they around there too? And that's when

1:26:55

the but you know that week build

1:26:57

up into the rut, that's when a lot of time

1:27:00

you start seeing bucks get visible in those areas

1:27:03

where other times a year they might not be anywhere

1:27:05

around there, um because they

1:27:07

don't need to, you know, they don't care about it. Those

1:27:11

UM that's kind of

1:27:13

how I tackle It's it's um

1:27:15

probably more um just focusing

1:27:18

on strategy and preparation

1:27:22

because that's kind of my style, you know, and

1:27:24

that that's what I would stress. You know, Justin's

1:27:27

that doesn't have you know, he's got the best style

1:27:29

for him, not necessarily gonna be a sixth great

1:27:31

step for anybody else. I've got the best.

1:27:33

I'm you know, working on the best style for me.

1:27:36

You know, so if you want to be the

1:27:38

best tenor you can be buying

1:27:41

something that works for you. Don't try to copy something

1:27:43

else to somebody else. You know, you get ideas

1:27:45

from mother, Yeah, you can get get ideas

1:27:47

from somebody else, you know. You

1:27:50

know I listened to Justin, you know, Andy,

1:27:52

you Mark, Um, we listened

1:27:55

to each other. But you know, um,

1:27:57

I do think some people would kind of get hung up.

1:28:00

Oh you know I'm doing what is

1:28:02

doing? Yeah, you know that you've

1:28:05

been you know, kind of waste, been in your wheels

1:28:07

if you just just kind of replicate,

1:28:09

don't try to replicate, you know, my

1:28:12

final works for you. Yeah. I love

1:28:14

that you guys answered that so differently,

1:28:16

And I was I kind of thought you might,

1:28:19

um, But you know, you guys are both you

1:28:21

gos, both playing to your strengths like Joe,

1:28:23

It's exactly how I thought

1:28:25

you would answer that. Um. Your

1:28:28

your hunts are very

1:28:30

well thought out and

1:28:33

very strategic and um

1:28:36

and a lot of times you you anticipate

1:28:39

exactly what is going to happen, even

1:28:41

with your deer drives. I mean that everything

1:28:43

is so exact, and

1:28:45

I know it doesn't play out perfectly every time,

1:28:48

but it plays out just

1:28:51

the way you think enough for you

1:28:54

to be successful on multiple

1:28:56

big bucks a year on very limited

1:28:58

time. And I just oppresses me so much.

1:29:00

And then and justin like, um,

1:29:03

you know, Jeal said it best man. Just on the fly

1:29:06

woodmanship skills and more

1:29:08

of that aggressive instinctual approach.

1:29:10

Um, so cool. Um. You

1:29:14

know I I I

1:29:16

feel like I

1:29:18

feel like I do a little bit of both of

1:29:20

those styles, but I don't feel

1:29:22

as seasoned as either of you in your

1:29:25

style at all. Um. And that's why I love.

1:29:27

I just love talking to you guys, because I learned so much.

1:29:29

There's a couple of things after talking about

1:29:32

that I want to expand on. One is food

1:29:34

in the hills, but we'll get to that in a second.

1:29:36

But so

1:29:39

one of my things when I typically

1:29:41

when I go to hill country, it's been every time. Actually

1:29:43

it's been during the rut. I've never went early

1:29:46

season, um,

1:29:49

and I've always focused on

1:29:52

terrain features, um,

1:29:54

you know, thinking bucks

1:29:56

are on the move. Um, I'm gonna

1:29:58

play the odds and try to get in

1:30:00

these terrain funnels, these train features

1:30:03

that should funnel movement, um

1:30:06

if assuming the bucks are moving. So I usually

1:30:08

wait for a good weather pattern, the right time of year,

1:30:10

the right conditions for that to happen, and

1:30:13

I've had great luck with that. But you

1:30:16

know, obviously I kill. I

1:30:18

don't always kill the biggest deer in the woods

1:30:20

and that in that you

1:30:23

know, in that type of situation. So I

1:30:25

guess my question for both of you is during

1:30:28

the rut, do you do

1:30:31

that same thing, um

1:30:34

or do you still focus on

1:30:36

some of these known buck betting areas

1:30:38

or where this deer has been living most

1:30:41

of the year. I know, I

1:30:43

know Dan has talked about that he's still even during

1:30:45

the rut, he's still bouncing around to some of those,

1:30:48

um, those known buck betting

1:30:50

areas. So I was curious to see what you guys do

1:30:52

for me. Like when I go to an unfamiliar area, I don't

1:30:55

know what buck is there, so I don't even know where

1:30:57

a specific buck is living. And Joe, I know

1:30:59

you are really keen into,

1:31:01

really tune into where a lot

1:31:03

of these books you're hunting are living. So I'm

1:31:05

just curious during the rut, is

1:31:07

it one strategy more than the other terrain

1:31:10

versus betting, or is it more does

1:31:12

what do you think? Let's

1:31:15

go to Joe first? Yeah,

1:31:18

um, well,

1:31:20

I yeah, it depends of

1:31:22

course, UM but

1:31:25

I would probably so,

1:31:28

I'm you're right like I'm

1:31:30

I'm fanatical, you know,

1:31:32

yeah, I you know I live in Iowa. Majority

1:31:35

of my huntings in Iowa. Um,

1:31:38

I'm able to hunt even I'm hunting

1:31:41

a lot of public land, you know. Um

1:31:44

ah, I'm able

1:31:46

to hunt deer for several years.

1:31:48

You know, we've got a good age structure. Everybody

1:31:51

knows that. So I

1:31:53

can you know, I cover a tunnel

1:31:55

land to find these deer. They're not

1:31:57

easy to find. They're not in every piece of public

1:32:00

I can find, you know, five six year old

1:32:02

ducks. Um, and

1:32:05

I can you know? I My goal

1:32:07

is to detect that deer, even when

1:32:09

it's I spread myself so thin that

1:32:12

I don't um,

1:32:15

I might you know, I'll get a deer on truck came.

1:32:17

I never hunted that property, you know. I was like,

1:32:19

oh, that's a nice four year old, you know, and

1:32:22

they hopefully I got him on camera, you know, on January.

1:32:25

Um. Um, and

1:32:27

he made it through this. You know, he's gonna be around next

1:32:29

year, and maybe I'll get a couple of

1:32:31

years of pictures um, and then I can really

1:32:34

and and layer on scouting spring

1:32:36

scouting on top of that, um,

1:32:39

maybe a hunter or two after him, Like

1:32:41

I get a couple of years of history with a deer,

1:32:44

and I really map out exactly how

1:32:46

he's using that area. And

1:32:49

almost always they're not entirely

1:32:51

we actually talked about this here earlier,

1:32:53

but they're not entirely on a

1:32:55

piece of public um. They're like, you're

1:32:58

hunting a tiny little corner of the range.

1:33:00

You've got like one opportunity or maybe a couple

1:33:02

opportunities to kill that beer. He's

1:33:04

a crossing public in daylight, or he's bet in

1:33:06

one spot on public. So

1:33:09

um. So what I'm going am

1:33:11

answering to answer your question

1:33:13

A long way around. I'm relying on that

1:33:15

last year history and it's a rut

1:33:18

um. Usually it's

1:33:21

this buck was cruising through this area

1:33:23

in daylight the last year or the last

1:33:25

couple of years. UM, And it might

1:33:28

be to a doe betting area. UM,

1:33:30

I do target in the hills.

1:33:33

I tend to think the bucks shift betting

1:33:36

um into the rut, most of them

1:33:38

do, UM, So they're

1:33:40

betting tends in the rut,

1:33:42

tends to be closer to the betting um. Sometimes

1:33:45

they're bett and even in what would otherwise

1:33:48

be a doe betting area if it's if it's

1:33:50

thereout they might be laying down in there. UM.

1:33:53

But they're doing it where I knew

1:33:55

they were doing it last year. And that's what I really key

1:33:58

in on. UM that

1:34:00

that's what I just laser focus.

1:34:02

I've I've got a UM

1:34:05

probably a majority of my dear UM

1:34:08

that from multi year history

1:34:11

where I knew that buck like okay,

1:34:14

like the last ten days of October

1:34:17

is my time to kill this buck. I need

1:34:19

this wind direction, I'm hot to that spot

1:34:21

and that's my chance, you know.

1:34:24

So that's what I'm teting. So it's

1:34:26

not necessarily more dough betting

1:34:29

or more. It might be dough betting. It

1:34:31

might be just a buck cruising route.

1:34:34

UM, it might be a buck betting

1:34:37

UM uh spot

1:34:40

Um, that really depends,

1:34:42

but it's I'm detecting what it is

1:34:45

well advance. So yeah,

1:34:48

so a lot of a lot of it probably boils down

1:34:50

to, uh, you know, your knowledge

1:34:52

of the individual deer um.

1:34:54

Like when I travel, I don't I don't have

1:34:56

that. So I'm

1:34:59

pretty be with any type of mature

1:35:02

book. You know what it is.

1:35:04

I would say your strategies rock solid.

1:35:07

You know you're looking look at terrain, Um,

1:35:09

you look at bill betting, and it's

1:35:12

really um, those books

1:35:14

are moving in between the dough betting

1:35:16

areas if you're if you time it right, um,

1:35:20

and it's not you know, right in the middle. Even

1:35:22

if it's right in the middle of lockdown, they're still you

1:35:24

know, might be up looking for another hot dough.

1:35:26

But um, you know you

1:35:28

just need to you want as many lawyers

1:35:31

as possible, you know, you want like

1:35:33

we talked about those turkey feet, you know, um,

1:35:36

and being a thermal hub and the shortest

1:35:38

distance between a point. That's what you

1:35:40

need a key and on. You know, if you're not worried,

1:35:43

you know, not worrying about dear history and I know the

1:35:45

maths best majority Like that's what gets

1:35:47

me super excited, Like I want to kill a

1:35:49

buck that you know I've stalked

1:35:52

and you know, assassinate

1:35:54

him basically. Uh, but

1:35:57

that's not everybody's situation. That's

1:36:00

when yeah, you just you know, you

1:36:02

die on on the train to cover

1:36:04

the does. Um yeah, yeah,

1:36:09

justin Uh, I'm guessing

1:36:11

it's probably a combination of

1:36:14

what Joe said and what I do, depending

1:36:16

on your familiarity with with the deer in question,

1:36:18

would that be accurate? Yeah?

1:36:21

Um, So if we're talking

1:36:23

a piece that I'm familiar with in the does

1:36:25

and where they've bet at. I think Joe

1:36:27

touched on this earlier. So

1:36:29

generally I find myself trying to kill

1:36:32

a buck that has better going private

1:36:34

land. Well, you get into the rut and

1:36:37

they will move closer to the dough

1:36:39

group, and I know, you

1:36:42

know, from experience, I know generally where

1:36:44

that's gonna be, where the bucks in the move in at

1:36:47

and better closer to the end. So I kind of

1:36:50

I kind of base a lot of it on that on the

1:36:52

history. But if we're going off of you know, something

1:36:54

that I don't know, then yeah, it's

1:36:56

gonna be terrain. It's definitely gonna be thrain.

1:36:59

And if I can find the hot food stores like

1:37:01

a you know, fay, it's a year,

1:37:03

whether it's low acorns or whatever.

1:37:05

And I find a spot this drop in those I'm

1:37:08

not opposed even in the rud that stit up there, because

1:37:10

that's gonna draw all that does in and the b they're

1:37:13

gonna come through there and check them out. So you

1:37:16

know, it's a it's a very age of it

1:37:19

depends on I guess if I have history with

1:37:21

the property, we're talking something

1:37:23

new or something I've punn it. Mm hmm,

1:37:26

okay, So that leads me to I

1:37:28

know we're getting a little long here. I got just a couple more

1:37:30

questions. This is this is awesome stuff

1:37:35

acorns food in

1:37:37

general, um, but specifically

1:37:40

acorns. I'll admit that this

1:37:42

is I'm

1:37:45

pretty man, pretty

1:37:48

green when it comes to acorns. UM.

1:37:52

I mean, obviously it's not hard to find

1:37:54

red and white acorns. It doesn't play

1:37:56

a huge strategy for

1:37:59

me personally around home.

1:38:03

Um,

1:38:05

sometimes it can, but

1:38:08

not not a lot

1:38:10

um. And I know in the hill country it

1:38:13

can be everything. So

1:38:16

I just wanna touch on how

1:38:18

big of impact does

1:38:21

that have on your strategy

1:38:24

when it comes to chasing these older

1:38:26

deer. So Justin and you and I talked

1:38:29

about it a little bit. So why why don't you start with that?

1:38:32

Man? It's you, um

1:38:34

finding those It depends on the year to some

1:38:37

years you have them. Just it just

1:38:39

seems like they're everywhere. You know, find those

1:38:42

those spots that that they are really

1:38:44

congregate to. I guess you know that really

1:38:47

is a hot Hey, this term

1:38:49

fat free, I've heard um,

1:38:51

but you know that's the best way to put it, a feat free

1:38:53

that all the deer are really hitting.

1:38:56

So this year, uh, we did

1:38:58

not have acres at all. There

1:39:00

was a few here and there when they were dropping.

1:39:02

It was just like that's where

1:39:05

the deer were. Um. But

1:39:07

yeah, it's huge. Um, if you

1:39:09

know where the bucks are betting, and

1:39:11

you know when they're working for the egg, they

1:39:14

a lot of them will hang up on those those

1:39:16

acren freeze um

1:39:18

on the way to you know an act feel So

1:39:20

yeah, I mean it's huge. It gives

1:39:23

you at least an idea

1:39:25

of where you're going to drown. You know, where

1:39:27

he's kind of heading off even if the

1:39:30

if the eggs over here, but there's you

1:39:32

know, acrons up on this bridge that you know

1:39:34

isn't in the same direction. He may head their first

1:39:37

hanging up and eat and work his

1:39:39

way off down to the agg So

1:39:41

it's huge. I mean it's huge. So like

1:39:43

if if if the one

1:39:45

one thing I noticed down in Ohio is like bucks

1:39:48

tend to have like obviously they're

1:39:50

they're a little they're

1:39:52

little core range. You know, it might encompass

1:39:54

you know, two or three bridges,

1:39:57

maybe more, But I just noticed that I get

1:39:59

pictures of them and see them repeatedly on, repeatedly

1:40:02

on. You know, these two or three ridges, they got

1:40:04

their little areas. So you're just looking

1:40:07

for, like if you're after a particular buck, you're

1:40:09

just looking for that concentration

1:40:11

of acorns in that in that

1:40:13

system. Because like I've I've always

1:40:15

been and I think it's I think

1:40:17

it's inbreded me from hunting

1:40:20

Michigan. Um,

1:40:23

at all costs, do

1:40:26

not, like let the deer

1:40:28

know that you're even in the area.

1:40:31

Um. I've never had good luck once a deer

1:40:34

and once I've bumped a deer of mature buck,

1:40:36

I've never had good luck even seeing that

1:40:38

deer again. I've I've told you that justin

1:40:41

UM. So I'm

1:40:45

trying to wrap my mind

1:40:47

around more when I travel out of state that you

1:40:50

know, deer are very different, and I'm starting

1:40:52

to see that from state to state

1:40:54

to state there they all behave and

1:40:57

tolerate different things. Um.

1:41:00

But like in hill country, let's

1:41:02

say I'm trying to find that that were

1:41:04

the hot like you said, hot feet

1:41:06

tree or hot little area of acorns.

1:41:09

Man, you can cover a lot of ground because there are a lot

1:41:11

of these uh these pieces of hill

1:41:13

country have oaks everywhere. And

1:41:16

I was down in southern Ohio for New

1:41:18

Year's and I did some had

1:41:20

some scouting down there, and it was like I

1:41:22

walked a ton of ground and

1:41:24

then I found fresh acorns

1:41:26

even on on uh January

1:41:29

one, fresh acorns on the

1:41:31

ground. Um. But man, I had to

1:41:33

I sure had to walk a lot

1:41:36

to find that. And it's just like it

1:41:39

just I just thought about all

1:41:41

the deer that I must have just educated, you

1:41:43

know what I mean, alright

1:41:46

going through that area. So that's something I struggle

1:41:48

with, um as far as like looking

1:41:50

for food um in the

1:41:52

hill country and and having to cover

1:41:55

so much ground to look for that. So I

1:41:58

don't know, what do you what do you think on that? Well?

1:42:00

Like are you talking? So you're how

1:42:03

familiar are you with that? I mean, you know generally

1:42:05

where the bucks are betting at anyways, I

1:42:07

mean outside of even not even

1:42:09

looking at the treat the food. I mean, you

1:42:12

know, for the most part where Yeah,

1:42:15

well, I guess I'm thinking I'm thinking

1:42:17

more in terms of areas that I'm not familiar

1:42:19

with that I haven't hunted before, because you

1:42:21

know, my plan is the hunt some

1:42:24

new hill country, So I'm thinking more in terms

1:42:26

of in terms of that. So

1:42:29

yeah, obviously, you know, when

1:42:31

you when you have an idea where these bucks are betted

1:42:33

and where they're living, it's it's easier to kind

1:42:35

of work around at Yeah,

1:42:38

well, I don't know. I mean for me, I would be looking

1:42:40

for either or either

1:42:42

trying to find where that that there is, you

1:42:45

know obviously it's betting at. Or

1:42:47

if I run into saying,

1:42:50

you know, a wide oak or something up on the top of the ridge

1:42:52

and it just has a ton of beer signed

1:42:54

around it, well, if you can kind

1:42:56

of work out on the perimeter

1:42:58

of that. You know, for the

1:43:00

most part, these books, even in the early

1:43:03

seasons, they're going to have some sign you

1:43:05

know, working toward it coming in grapes

1:43:08

and stuff and grapes

1:43:11

and big tracks and the scrapes and stuff. I mean

1:43:13

I've told the I

1:43:15

mean I've killed I've killed

1:43:17

several bucks, um,

1:43:20

just based off that alone. Big tracks

1:43:23

in a scrape coming through there,

1:43:25

not even being a hundred percent you

1:43:27

know where the where the buck is betting at it.

1:43:30

It's a gamble. Sometimes sometimes you set up

1:43:32

on it and he maybe coming through there at night. But I

1:43:35

think the sign for the early season, yes,

1:43:38

early season, right justin yeah,

1:43:40

yeah, absolutely they're going to be

1:43:42

close by, right right.

1:43:44