0:05

From the Weston A. Price Foundation, welcome

0:08

to the Wise Traditions podcast for

0:10

Wise Traditions in Food, Farming and

0:12

the Healing Arts. We are

0:14

your source for scientific knowledge and traditional

0:16

wisdom to help you achieve optimal health.

0:23

And now here is our

0:25

host and producer Hilda Labrada-Gore.

0:27

Hey, Hilda here. You

0:30

thought there was just an anti-meat campaign

0:32

in the Western world? Oh

0:34

no. That propaganda is

0:36

sweeping through many countries and is

0:38

going full force in India too.

0:41

This is episode 459 and our guest today is Dr. Sylvia Karpagam.

0:46

Dr. Sylvia is a public health doctor

0:49

and researcher in India. Today

0:51

she explains how, though India is

0:53

perceived by many as a vegetarian

0:56

nation, only a small percentage

0:58

of the population is vegetarian. Nonetheless,

1:01

there are forces that want to change

1:03

that. There is a strong

1:05

sentiment against eating meat and

1:07

even an indoctrination happening at

1:09

the school level, along with a

1:11

movement to ban eggs and meat

1:13

from school lunches altogether. Dr. Sylvia

1:15

reviews today how the traditional caste

1:18

system in India plays a part

1:20

in the biases against meat. She

1:22

also covers the current state of

1:24

nutrition and wellness in that country,

1:26

how far some go to penalize

1:29

meat eaters or those suspected

1:31

of eating meat, and how

1:33

and why some are promoting

1:35

a nutrient-poor, cereal-heavy diet to

1:37

those who are most in need of

1:39

nutrient-rich foods. Before we get into

1:42

the conversation, do you follow the

1:44

Western A-Price Foundation on its various social

1:46

media platforms and on YouTube? Look

1:49

for us on all of

1:51

these platforms, Instagram, Facebook. MeWe,

1:53

Telegram, and YouTube. On

1:55

many of these accounts, we offer resources

1:57

like articles and videos and records. recipes,

2:00

all in the context of support for

2:03

your health journey. I'll put

2:05

the links to each of the platforms in

2:07

the show description so you can find us

2:09

more easily. This is Huda Labrada Gore and

2:11

you're listening to Wise Traditions. Welcome to

2:13

Wise Traditions, Sylvia. Hi

2:16

Hilda. I've been a long time

2:18

associated with Wise Traditions. I'm so

2:20

happy to be on the podcast. Yes,

2:26

you have written some brilliant articles for

2:28

the journal. I'm really excited to dive

2:30

into what you know about health

2:32

and wellness and nutrition in India. Let's

2:35

start with a story, Sylvia, of

2:37

a young man whose teacher

2:39

told him something would happen if he ate

2:41

meat. Can you tell us that story? Yes,

2:44

that story actually, it's very symbolic

2:47

for me, partly because of the

2:49

enormity of the problem, but also

2:51

in terms of how important it

2:53

is for people to keep talking

2:56

about these issues. I give

2:58

a lot of talks at universities and colleges

3:00

and I had one public talk and I

3:02

finished just getting off the stage and this

3:05

young boy, I mean, he was like 15

3:07

or 16 years he came

3:10

forward and he said that his teacher

3:12

in school had always

3:14

told him he's from a marginalized

3:16

community. I mean, we can talk

3:18

about that in little letters from

3:21

a traditionally marginalized community or who

3:23

we call the Dalit communities who

3:25

traditionally seen as impure or polluted

3:27

for eating meat and all animals

3:29

or foods other than milk and

3:32

dairy. So apparently his teacher who's

3:34

from a dominant caste group kept

3:36

repeatedly telling the students that if

3:38

you eat meat, your tongue will

3:40

get thick, your

3:42

brains will not develop, all you'll

3:45

get is muscles, body, you'll be aggressive,

3:47

you'll be violent. And

3:49

basically she said that his performance

3:51

in school is going to be

3:53

poor because of eating meat and

3:56

he said that he actually listened to

3:58

one of my talks. in

4:00

the regional language and he apparently

4:03

challenged the teacher. He

4:05

was so happy, he said it

4:07

really made a difference to me

4:09

and for me that was very

4:11

affirming that a student, because it

4:13

can be quite toxic for students

4:15

to constantly hear this and we

4:17

repeatedly hear parents and students telling

4:19

us this that the

4:21

way they're criminalized or the way they

4:23

look down upon and the pretext that

4:25

it's more scientific, more to eat

4:27

meat, more to eat egg. So

4:29

I think it's really very important

4:31

especially like platforms like My Actually,

4:54

Sylvia, I want to ask you to give

4:56

us an overview of the caste

4:58

system in India because

5:01

when you said there are marginalized

5:03

communities and even criminalized or communities

5:06

that are denigrated, that's very foreign to some

5:08

of us in the western world. So can

5:10

you describe the caste system for us and

5:12

who these marginalized communities are? Yeah,

5:15

I mean, I'm not an expert

5:17

on the historical aspect of it

5:19

and there are many different points

5:21

of view about it, but as a

5:24

public health person, I have

5:26

definitely seen how caste affects

5:29

nutrition in two ways. One

5:31

is, okay, basically the caste

5:33

structure itself is composed

5:35

of those who belong within the

5:37

caste system and those who belong

5:40

outside it and those who belong

5:42

within the caste system are basically

5:44

four categories. So you have

5:46

the brahmins, you have the shatriyas, you

5:48

have the vaisyas and the shudras. The

5:51

brahmins are apparently they have

5:54

Been created from the head

5:56

of the god Brahma. So

5:58

Basically, it's very. That he

6:00

insulted me. Believe that the other

6:02

intellectual they are meant to be

6:05

valid. He does them to be

6:07

the thing cause that he chose

6:09

academicians. Of the doctors and

6:11

academic faces are supposed to be

6:14

populated by the brothers and this

6:16

manifests. In. How they

6:18

treat people. Who. Come in from

6:21

other festivals or the we have a

6:23

policy in the government of affirmative action

6:25

the people say who come from the

6:27

deluxe communities into these faces face and

6:30

lot of bullying had is meant as

6:32

a lot of people will take their

6:34

own lives of because of an extreme

6:37

amount of institutionalized still in Augustus so

6:39

often of them and you have the

6:41

shut the Us who are supposed to

6:44

be the warriors who basically came from

6:46

the the arms of still god. As.

6:49

As they have no us and of

6:51

in a hierarchy then you have the

6:53

why shares are the three dollars for

6:55

her abetting to gain some the size

6:57

of the gods and then you had

6:59

the feet of because the shooters who

7:02

do. Have a neighbor. But.

7:05

It's. What? They call the

7:07

teen Alfonso sleeveless now. Outside

7:09

the star system you have. The.

7:12

People who don't belong to the

7:14

past and will cause the untouchables

7:16

of default. Also the first now

7:18

like development identified him as he

7:20

said you saw since you're right

7:23

but as a lot of this

7:25

a new deals with sense identifies

7:27

as Dallas Not this community is

7:29

supposed to be taken the responsibility.

7:32

of billie unseemly voice of a

7:34

sick leave behind these blood they

7:37

have caucuses the handle excrete off

7:39

the hands of the garbage entire

7:41

system if you see is yours

7:44

to keep seafood within the same

7:46

occupations i'm there's a lot of

7:48

justification and rationalization even among people

7:51

who are educated in in the

7:53

among people who live in the

7:55

list who migrated from india ill

7:58

several generations ago for to

8:00

reinforce this whole caste structure. And

8:02

they say the stable state. So

8:05

basically, if I am born into

8:07

a family that is meant

8:09

to clean toilets, then I

8:12

should be happy doing it.

8:14

Because if I try to aspire

8:16

for something else, then I'm destabilizing

8:18

the system. And I'm also going

8:20

to be blessed because I'm doing

8:22

my job happily. And

8:24

it's so ingrained.

8:27

So each group

8:29

has different practices, has

8:31

different food eating patterns,

8:34

different cultures, which

8:36

they very subtly use to

8:38

identify themselves. The surnames

8:40

will give you out. So all the

8:42

people say, I don't practice caste because

8:45

it's against our constitution. It's against the

8:47

law to practice

8:49

untouchability. But people practice

8:52

it in different forms.

8:55

And so can you help us understand, Sylvia, how

8:58

the casteist roots in

9:00

society play out in terms of

9:02

food policy? Can you explain that a little

9:04

bit? Yeah, so as I said, the people

9:07

who in policymaking, I mean,

9:09

I don't call it policy because

9:11

it's not exactly evidence-based. It's based

9:13

on a whole bunch of other

9:15

things like caste or religion or

9:18

misconceptions or propaganda. So

9:20

I just call them the decision-makers.

9:23

People who are influential in society,

9:25

so you have the doctors, you

9:27

have the researchers, even the people

9:29

who identify as nutritionally or civil

9:31

society, who are technically

9:33

vegetarians, who identify, self-identify as

9:35

vegetarians. So they constitute about

9:37

20% of the population. But

9:40

because of their access to the

9:42

resources and power, they make

9:44

most of the decisions in the

9:46

country, specifically on the

9:48

nutrition and nutrition policy. So

9:50

there's constant projection of India

9:52

is that it's a vegetarian country.

9:54

But technically, it's only 20% of

9:57

Indians who self-identify

9:59

as vegetarians. vegetarian. Oh

10:01

my gosh only 20% of Indians

10:03

identify as vegetarian. You write the

10:06

whole world has the impression that

10:08

the whole country is vegetarian. Yeah

10:10

absolutely. The PR machinery is very

10:12

good. That's wild. Yeah and

10:14

then so most of the

10:16

others would eat meat occasionally

10:18

although quite a few of them would

10:20

have some days and they don't eat

10:22

or some meat that they don't eat

10:25

and definitely beef is a taboo

10:27

for a lot of people but

10:29

it's important to also know that

10:31

almost you know almost a hundred

10:34

million people in India consume beef

10:36

and this is source of livelihood

10:38

for a lot of people. It's

10:41

also a source of nutrition. It's

10:43

one of the cheapest meats that's

10:45

available in India so a lot

10:47

of the Dalits, the tribal communities,

10:49

even other backward communities, Muslims, Christians

10:53

do eat beef and you know

10:55

you have the Jains who don't eat

10:57

anything that grow under the ground like

10:59

they don't eat fruit like onions or

11:01

garlic and don't eat any kind of

11:04

meat but interestingly a lot

11:06

of the vegetarians consume dairy for

11:08

the milk, yogurt, sometimes

11:11

fennies, ghee and butter are a

11:13

very important part of their diets

11:15

so they are vegetarian but

11:18

technically they're not so they get

11:20

the animals for food but then

11:22

they create barriers to the others

11:24

to access the other foods so

11:26

in India other than milk

11:28

and dairy which goes into the realm of

11:31

the pure all the

11:33

other foods are classified as

11:35

domestic or impure so basically

11:37

you consume them then you're going to

11:39

be lustful you're going to be wildland

11:41

aggressive going to have criminal tendencies

11:44

so that's how the policy

11:46

gets affected in India and

11:48

a lot of laws are brought in

11:50

actually to especially targeting beef different states

11:53

in India have brought in cattle slaughter

11:55

bans some of them are more stringent

11:57

than others and what the

11:59

transits place too is lynch

12:01

mobs. You have groups of people

12:03

who call themselves, you know, the call

12:05

protectors. Even just the suspicion

12:08

that someone has beef in his

12:10

house is enough reason to

12:12

go and mob and lynch those people.

12:14

Oh my goodness, Sylvia, I thought you

12:16

were talking hypothetically, you know, like a

12:18

lynch mob, like a vigilantes

12:21

who are passionate about it,

12:23

but they literally will murder

12:26

people who are suspected of having

12:28

meat in their home? Yes. Because

12:30

the cow is considered sacred in India.

12:33

And if you actually do a Google

12:35

search, like you put lynch mobs in

12:37

India, you'll see the number of cases,

12:39

especially in the last few years. And

12:41

the worst thing is that they actually

12:43

film it, and they put

12:46

it out in public. And the

12:48

kind of responses people deserve it,

12:50

like, you know, they deserve to

12:52

die if there is a suspicion

12:54

that they have beef. That's the

12:56

terrible outcome of, you know, the

12:58

food that we're getting. Coming

13:06

up, Dr. Sylvia discusses policy

13:08

around nutrition in India and

13:10

why schools are considering eliminating

13:12

eggs from their school lunches.

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to Wise Traditions. I

15:47

understand that Kellogg's the man that

15:49

was behind the breakfast cereal push

15:51

in the United States was

15:54

of the mind that eating

15:56

meat would indeed make

15:58

us more passionate or lustful. So

16:00

he wanted people to eat cereal

16:03

to lower those impulses and

16:05

I think he succeeded. But

16:08

where I'm going with this is that

16:10

the idea that eating meat will make

16:12

you rebellious or aggressive or lustful is

16:15

actually based in the idea

16:17

that actually, yes, eating meat

16:19

makes you strong and makes your

16:21

hormones function properly and makes you

16:24

a leader. It isn't necessarily

16:26

a bad thing but it's definitely

16:28

been identified as wrong or

16:30

evil Indian society it sounds

16:32

like. Yes. And

16:35

off late it's not as beef but

16:37

there's targeting of meat eaters. There are

16:39

a lot of colleges

16:41

and universities which are supposed to

16:44

be progressing spaces which are trying

16:46

to make spaces vegetarian, preventing

16:49

students from eating any

16:51

form of meat in the premises.

16:54

Eggs are being targeted. We actually have

16:57

a very large school feeding program. We

16:59

have the mid-day meal scheme which

17:01

is a legal entitlement of

17:03

the children and the majority

17:05

of the children who go to these schools

17:08

are some of the poorest children. A lot

17:10

of malnutrition. Most of them actually traditionally use

17:12

treating meats when eggs at home but

17:14

they solve the policy around

17:16

nutrition is such that

17:19

there's a large scale resistance to

17:21

eggs. Many schools refuse

17:24

to give eggs. Contracts

17:26

have been given to organizations that are

17:29

openly castors which they actually they have

17:31

a very strong presence internationally also even

17:33

in the US. They call the International

17:35

Society for Krishna Consciousness. They

17:38

do a lot of fundraising in the name

17:40

of these children saying they are feeding these

17:42

children but their whole premise is sattvic food.

17:45

Similar to what K.Lobs is

17:47

saying basically the children their

17:51

hunger that they feel is not real hunger.

17:53

Children are not able to concentrate because they

17:55

are eating all these bad foods. So we

17:57

will give them these sattvic food which is

18:00

good for their brain development. And

18:02

they definitely refuse to give eggs. They

18:04

say eggs are the menstrual discharge of

18:06

the chickens. And so they say no

18:08

to it. Wait, they say eggs are

18:10

the what? You don't.

18:14

Menstrual discharge of the chickens. And

18:18

so they think by consuming eggs

18:20

and meat is going to make

18:22

the children lustful or bad students

18:25

all the myths out there, I

18:27

guess they believe. And

18:29

they have been given the contract

18:31

to huge number of schools in

18:33

the country, because they have huge

18:35

capital, they have huge social capital.

18:37

And you first to target them

18:39

are called anti Hindu. They say

18:41

we are against them because of

18:43

their religion, especially those of us

18:45

who are not Hindus are often

18:48

targeted for calling out this

18:50

kind of organization. This is exactly what

18:52

happens all around the world. If

18:54

you have a dissenting opinion, you are

18:56

slander, they plaster you with

18:59

a label because it's like name calling

19:01

in the schoolyard. There's no

19:03

defense for what they're saying. And

19:05

so they just resort to name

19:07

calling. And then there's a whole

19:10

gang of that comes together. Sylvia,

19:13

what are the consequences of

19:16

eggs and meat being removed

19:18

from the school lunches? We

19:20

have like two large national

19:22

surveys in India on nutrition.

19:24

And they actually have pretty

19:27

horrible nutrition indicators for most of

19:29

the country. Some states which independently

19:31

decide their own nutrition policies do

19:34

quite well. And some do very

19:36

badly. But on an average for

19:38

the country, if you like, for

19:40

example, take children eight, six to

19:42

23 months, only 42% of children

19:44

have actually

19:47

received the minimum number

19:49

of times feeds,

19:51

but they were fed like the minimum number of

19:53

times per day. Only 21% of

19:56

children had a diverse diet that

19:58

is more food

20:00

groups and children who

20:02

had both adequate diversity and

20:05

adequate frequency were just around

20:07

6%. That's so low 6% and we have

20:09

like only 9% of children

20:15

who received iron-rich foods. We

20:18

have high levels of vitamin A

20:20

deficiency, vitamin B12 deficiency, zinc deficiency

20:23

and these are documented so I'm

20:25

not just you know throwing statistics

20:27

just like that. We have like

20:30

almost 35 to 40% of

20:32

children who are stunted that is they

20:34

have less heights for their age. We

20:37

have almost like 38% children who are underweight basically

20:41

less weight for their age and

20:43

anemia is almost 57 to 59% even

20:48

among children. If you look at all of

20:50

these they don't come in isolation so

20:53

it's very unlikely that a child who is

20:55

stunted is not going to have the other

20:57

deficiencies. So children usually

20:59

have multiple deficiencies that

21:01

contributes to the infant

21:03

mortality rate, it contributes to

21:05

higher rates of infection among

21:07

these children and like

21:10

the girls also end

21:12

up having early pregnancies they

21:14

can have that can be more

21:16

maternal mortality, can be more infant

21:18

mortality and also India is considered

21:20

as a diabetic capital because

21:23

even though people have physically thin

21:25

they also have a lot of

21:27

non-communicable diseases. I'm just pausing for

21:29

a minute to take all that in. I

21:31

would love to include in the

21:34

show transcription any references to scientific studies. If

21:36

you could just send those to me we'll

21:38

toss them at the end of the transcript

21:40

so people can see for themselves what's happening.

21:43

What would you say Sylvia to the

21:45

naysayer who says oh

21:47

no Indians are genetically predisposed

21:49

to have slight builds and to

21:51

be shorter in stature. We

21:53

actually have a lot of those. We have

21:56

people who want to reduce the standards. They

21:58

don't want to go the dub. WHO

22:00

standards, they say Indians are hemoglobin

22:02

should have lower cutoffs, the heights

22:05

should have lower cutoffs. But what

22:07

we see is in

22:09

those populations which have

22:11

no constraints to good nutrition over

22:14

say two or three generations, their

22:16

heights are actually comparable WHO standards.

22:20

So we have evidence that when

22:22

over two or three generations you

22:24

have had no constraints, either

22:27

social constraints or economic or nutritional

22:29

constraints, people have

22:31

actually, heights have increased, the

22:34

secular trends have shown a consistent

22:37

increase in heights. Yeah, I'm

22:39

thinking about how sometimes in the

22:41

US as well among the health

22:43

organizations they will move the goal

22:45

post. So they will say

22:47

for example, oh the average sperm

22:50

count for a male in the United States

22:52

let's say was 2000. I

22:54

don't remember the exact numbers but then

22:56

when they see that the sperm count

22:58

is going down in the average male

23:00

they'll say, oh actually the average sperm

23:03

count is now 300 because that's

23:05

what is common but that doesn't mean it's optimal

23:07

or normal. So I get the sense this is

23:09

what you're saying about the standards for

23:12

hemoglobin cutoffs for anemia and the

23:14

standards for height. Absolutely,

23:16

like the people who wanted to

23:18

reduce the hemoglobin and height cutoffs,

23:21

they used this survey from which

23:23

I quoted those statistics, they have

23:25

high levels of standing, they have

23:28

high levels of all

23:30

deficiencies, they did that

23:32

population and they used some number

23:34

juggling, excluded some, included

23:36

some and then they said we

23:39

got this healthy population. They

23:41

picked up a largely unhealthy

23:43

vegetarian rural population and they said

23:46

magically we got this healthy population

23:48

and their cutoffs the average is

23:50

much less and therefore India's average

23:52

should be much less. I mean

23:55

it's not even good research, it's

23:57

not even good science. When

24:00

did all of this come onto your radar? When

24:02

did you realize, oh, we are

24:05

undernourishing ourselves and we're hurting ourselves

24:07

and our future and our children's

24:09

future? I mean, I've done public

24:11

health and when we were doing

24:13

the MD, I mean, we were

24:15

just doing like very generic stuff.

24:17

There was actually huge demolition that

24:20

happened quite close to my house

24:22

where people were evicted forcibly, almost

24:24

6,600 families. And

24:26

I went as a medical doctor there. And

24:29

within a week, I actually

24:31

saw a very healthy productive

24:33

population just become sick within

24:36

a week to two weeks.

24:38

The children were having more

24:40

diarrhea, the children were having,

24:42

you know, they're losing weight,

24:44

mothers are having urinary tract

24:46

infections, they're having respiratory infections,

24:49

skin infections, you

24:51

know, men were having other issues. So

24:53

then I got really interested in this

24:55

idea of social determinants of health, the

24:58

importance of water and sanitation,

25:00

nutrition, shelter. So

25:03

I think from there, I kind of

25:06

moved from the whole healthcare model, which

25:08

is also important of course, and we

25:10

do a lot of work on that.

25:13

But also these social determinants and then

25:15

you realize that certain communities,

25:17

like for example, Dalit communities

25:20

are very specifically burdened by

25:22

all of these social determinants.

25:24

So they have poorer livelihoods,

25:27

they have poorer incomes, they

25:29

have less access to social security

25:31

schemes, more vulnerable to migration, more

25:34

vulnerable to living in

25:37

urban deprived areas, more

25:39

exploitation, more likely to

25:42

have occupational hazard. Yes,

25:44

nutrition also. But what I've seen

25:47

is some of them

25:49

have very good eating practices,

25:51

traditional eating practices, but they're

25:53

not recognized. In fact,

25:56

they're criminalized. So I would

25:58

never blame the community. and

26:00

say, you know, you have poor nutrition.

26:02

I think the poor nutrition is very

26:05

structural. Takes away what they

26:07

already know in terms of their indigenous

26:09

knowledge. Can you tell us

26:11

more about that, about the indigenous knowledge of

26:13

some of the tribal people groups? What was

26:15

traditionally a part of their diet? Were they hunters?

26:18

Were they pastoralists? Tell us a little bit

26:21

more. In Dalit communities,

26:23

like I said, most of them

26:26

have been pushed into what you

26:28

call unclean occupations. But

26:30

if you look at the eating practices, a

26:33

lot of the community eat meat and

26:35

they eat beef. Interestingly, they also eat

26:37

organ meats. So if you go to

26:40

like a meat shop, you have a

26:42

range of costs. You'll have the boneless

26:44

pieces, which are like very expensive. Then

26:46

you have the more fleshy pieces, but

26:48

the organ meats are much

26:51

cheaper. And therefore a lot of mothers or,

26:53

you know, grandmothers or even men, even if

26:55

they don't have a lot of money, they

26:57

come and buy organ meats. They

27:00

eat a lot of dry fish, a lot of

27:02

dry meats. So I'm not like

27:04

an expert because in India, we have

27:06

a huge wide range of foods

27:08

eaten by different communities. But I

27:10

think the communities are

27:13

very resourceful. We've spoken

27:15

to mothers and there's a

27:17

knowledge about what foods are

27:19

good. We've also worked with the

27:22

traditional birth attendants, who again, women

27:24

from the Dalit community, who

27:26

support women during labor. And they

27:29

give them, you know, a lot

27:31

of these foods because they believe

27:33

proteins are important, animals, food, soups

27:35

and abroad are important for the

27:37

women to recover and also for

27:39

the, you know, breastfeeding period. So

27:43

encouraging to hear that these

27:46

foods and these traditions are still being

27:48

kept. Though I imagine on

27:50

some level, societally it sounds like it's

27:53

an uphill battle that they have to

27:55

go against all of this propaganda and

27:57

programming and policy that is pushing. the

28:00

opposite direction. Absolutely. So

28:02

you have doctors who

28:05

if like a woman goes with anemia,

28:07

the doctor will say you have anemia

28:09

eat fruits and vegetables and

28:12

even some of them actually say stop eating

28:14

meat. A lot of the doctors asked

28:16

to work in a HIV center and the HIV

28:19

is a kind of a muscle wasting

28:22

disease and the doctor next to me I

28:24

could hear her telling the patients stop

28:26

eating meat, eat fruits and vegetables.

28:28

Why do you want to eat meat? People

28:30

with tuberculosis who

28:33

need these foods are often

28:35

denied it because the location,

28:37

the caste location of the

28:39

doctors. Similarly, you have the

28:41

policy makers. Interestingly, the

28:44

vegetarians because they come from a higher

28:46

social class are able to

28:48

access a lot of pulses and not a

28:50

lot of dairy and dairy products. But

28:52

if you look at actual food that is

28:55

being given say in

28:57

the social security schemes to children

28:59

in the government schools, what we

29:01

call the public distribution system, it's

29:04

always very serial heavy. So

29:06

most of the food that they get,

29:08

the rations that they get is serious.

29:11

You might have like very little

29:13

pulses and hardly anything else.

29:16

There's not even like oils. There's

29:18

not even you know, the other legumes.

29:20

There's not even dairy. So

29:22

there's a cheap vegetarianism that is being

29:25

pushed on the poor. And

29:27

just to add to that, there's like

29:29

I said, this is constant messaging that

29:31

meat is bad, you should stop

29:33

eating meat. It's not healthy

29:36

for you. And the West, I think

29:38

has really, really contributed. We have

29:40

this whole eat lancet commission. Yeah.

29:43

No, we have these anti whatever

29:45

the people who said eggs have

29:47

cholesterol, they really, really damaged the

29:50

way food is being pushed in

29:53

the country in India. Yes, we felt the

29:55

results of that over here as well. Some

29:57

people by their own volition

29:59

are making making these choices to reduce

30:01

their meat consumption because they've been persuaded by

30:04

Eat Lancet or other organizations that

30:06

are a part of this movement.

30:09

And others, I think I

30:11

even heard in New York, I think they were

30:13

going with a meatless Monday situation. Based

30:15

on faulty science, they're hurting our kids who

30:17

need meat in their diet. Some of these

30:20

children, as you say, are so poor, at

30:22

least in the US, that they don't have

30:24

much but cereals and cheap processed foods on

30:27

their plates at home. So the one decent

30:29

meal they're going to get a day is

30:31

going to be in the school. Yes,

30:34

absolutely. So, as we near

30:36

the end of the program, Sove, I want to

30:38

ask you, what conclusions have you

30:40

come to on your own based on your research

30:42

of nutrients and their impact on health in India?

30:45

Is there any hope? I do want to ask.

30:47

I think there is hope because

30:50

a lot of communities are reclaiming

30:52

their traditional foods, what they

30:54

call the food sovereignty. I'll send

30:57

you a link. So there's been

30:59

a declaration by diverse group of

31:01

people, the farmers, the pastoralist community,

31:04

the traditionally owned

31:07

livestock. They put up actually a

31:10

statement which talks about the interdependency

31:12

between forests and water and crops

31:14

and animals and humans. The idea

31:16

of the commons, which

31:19

has to be protected from the

31:21

kind of industrialized system that is

31:23

kind of taking over our food

31:26

systems. Yeah, and they see this

31:28

whole coexistence. I think that's very

31:30

positive. They have

31:33

been speaking at international fora. You

31:36

also have there's a pushback from

31:38

communities. You know, people organizing beef

31:41

festivals and food festivals, pushing for

31:43

more diversity, not just in terms

31:45

of food, but also in terms

31:48

of representation in decision

31:50

making. So I think, yeah, those are

31:52

all pretty positive changes. That

31:55

sounds wonderful. I'm so happy to hear it.

31:57

I want to join a beef festival. That

32:00

sounds amazing to me. I have an idea

32:02

here. Lovely, lovely.

32:05

Sylvia, this has been a wonderful conversation. I'd

32:07

love to pose the question I'd like

32:10

to pose at the end of the program here to you. If

32:12

the listener could do one thing to improve

32:15

their health, what would you recommend that

32:17

they do? I'd say

32:19

that if your food doesn't have an

32:21

ingredient list, then it's good. Try

32:24

to break your foods closer to your

32:26

homes, because it's

32:28

all vegan thing. It involves shipping

32:31

of foods from across other countries.

32:33

That's not really helping the climate.

32:36

Try to have local food. Try to

32:38

have a lot of diversity, at least

32:40

the whole food group with each meal.

32:42

And yeah, respect cultures.

32:45

Don't get into these

32:47

fads where you

32:49

think you want to. You're worried

32:52

about climate change, and then you're

32:54

not worried about all the consequences

32:56

of pushing for it, because sometimes

32:58

it's the poor and the vulnerable

33:01

and the marginalized who are paying

33:03

the price for all these decisions.

33:05

So be conscious and be cognizant

33:07

of how your actions

33:09

can impact people. Maybe

33:12

very far away. Wonderful words to end on.

33:14

Thank you so much for your time, Sylvia.

33:18

Our guest today was Dr. Sylvia

33:20

Carpadence. Go to her WordPress blog

33:22

to read her paper on the

33:24

subjects of nutrition in India and its

33:26

many influences. It's

33:29

drsilviacarpadence.wordpress.com. And

33:32

I am Hilda LaValle-Goral, the host and

33:34

producer of this podcast for the Westin

33:36

A. Price Foundation. You can find

33:39

me at hostacalco.com. And

33:41

for the transcript for this episode,

33:44

visit our website, westinaprice.org, and click

33:46

on the podcast page. And

33:48

now for a letter to the editor from the fall 2023 Wise

33:52

Traditions Journal. Thank you for your

33:54

caustic commentary on Cenomics. According

33:57

to the, in quotes, always

33:59

accurate Wikipedia. Cenomics patented

34:01

several flavor enhancers which have

34:03

previously expressed in human cell

34:05

culture in HEK 293-SINS. HEK

34:09

293, Looky says, is

34:12

human embryonic kidney 293 cells derived

34:14

from a spontaneously miscarried or aborted

34:17

fetus or human embryonic kidney cells

34:19

grown in tissue culture taken from

34:22

a female fetus in 1973. Why

34:25

would our trusted food providers put something

34:27

like this in food? Good

34:30

question. Behind the what's in our food

34:32

and how to eat better, the question is why

34:34

are we being attacked? Why has

34:36

our health system been turned into such

34:38

a harmful monstrosity? Why are

34:41

our children being educated in such an

34:43

absurd manner? Why can't we trust the

34:45

news to bring us truth? Why is

34:47

our world going so crazy? Are our

34:49

authorities there for our own benefit? If

34:51

not, then what is their agenda? Difficult

34:54

questions, difficult answers. While not developing severe

34:56

anxiety about it all, we can still

34:58

calmly face what's happening in our

35:00

world. In my research into where we've been,

35:03

how we got to here, and where

35:05

it's all headed, I've seen horrid insights

35:07

but also heartening solutions. Solutions

35:10

that are actually of the order

35:13

of magnitude needed to matter. When

35:15

an intensely divisive, manipulative, deceptive, controlling,

35:17

corrupt system that's been in place

35:19

for so long finally meets its

35:22

match, sparks might fly. For

35:24

what it's worth, I see calmer seeds ahead

35:26

of us and a lot of work to

35:28

build a better world. This is

35:31

a letter from Janice in Colorado Springs. Janice,

35:33

thank you for putting into words what so

35:35

many of us feel. If you'd like to

35:37

write a letter to the editor on the

35:39

subject of your choice, write us at info

35:41

at westernaprise.org and put letter to the editor

35:43

in the subject line. And we look forward

35:46

to hearing from you. Thank you so much

35:48

for listening, my friends. Stay well and remember

35:50

to keep your feet on the ground and

35:52

your face to the sun. On

35:55

behalf of the Weston A. Price Foundation,

35:57

thanks for listening. We have many

35:59

free resources. to support you on your

36:01

health journey. Visit westinaprice.org

36:03

to find podcasts, articles,

36:05

videos, and more. You

36:08

can also find a local chapter near you for

36:10

help in finding sources of great food. We

36:13

invite you to support the foundation's mission

36:15

of education, research, and activism by becoming

36:17

a member. Thanks again, and take care.

36:21

Wise Traditions is a project of the

36:23

Westin A. Price Foundation for wise traditions

36:25

in food, farming, and the healing arts.

36:28

The content on this podcast is provided for

36:30

informational purposes only and is not intended to

36:32

substitute for the advice provided by your doctor

36:34

or other healthcare professional. It is not intended

36:37

to be, nor does it constitute healthcare or

36:39

medical advice.