0:05

From the Weston A. Price Foundation, welcome

0:08

to the Wise Traditions podcast for

0:10

Wise Traditions in Food, Farming and

0:12

the Healing Arts. We are

0:14

your source for scientific knowledge and traditional

0:16

wisdom to help you achieve optimal health.

0:23

And now here is our host

0:25

and producer Hilda Labrada-Gore. Hey,

0:29

Hilda here. Not

0:32

all food is created equal. Just

0:34

because something is edible doesn't mean that

0:36

it is a nourishing food that supports

0:39

our health and wellness and long-term survival.

0:42

This is episode 449 and

0:44

our guest today is Diane Kohler,

0:46

the owner and director of the

0:48

Nutrition Therapy Institute in Colorado. Today,

0:50

Diane explains why we need to

0:52

stop counting calories and start counting

0:54

nutrients instead. She helps us get

0:57

a handle on the basic building

0:59

blocks for nutrition. She explains that

1:01

it's critical for us to evaluate

1:03

claims on packages and advice from

1:05

governmental agencies about what to eat.

1:08

She goes over how to determine which

1:10

foods actually serve us best and how

1:12

to identify those that deserve the label's

1:14

superfood. Hint, these are foods that offer

1:17

the most nutrient density and come from

1:19

animal products that are well sourced. In

1:22

sum, Diane gives tips for making better

1:24

choices in the day-to-day and along the

1:26

way, she tells the story of an

1:28

aha moment that led her to abandon

1:31

her vegan diet for a more nutrient-rich

1:33

one for her and her family. Before

1:35

we get into the conversation, I want to invite you

1:37

to make the 50% pledge. It

1:40

is a pledge to spend at least 50% of

1:42

your food budget on local

1:44

farms, purchasing from local farms.

1:47

It's good for you, your health,

1:49

for the economy, and your community.

1:52

It's a simple way to keep farms that are

1:54

doing it right afloat. And we have resources on

1:56

our website to help you out as you make

1:58

this choice. Find out more... westnaprice.org/50

2:00

dash 50 dash

2:06

pledge. I will put a link in the show description

2:09

to make it easy for you to find

2:11

it and thank you for joining hands with

2:13

us in this initiative. This is Hoda Labrador

2:15

and you're listening to

2:17

Wise Traditions. Welcome to Wise Traditions,

2:19

Diane. Thank you so much. I'm so happy

2:21

to be here. Listen, I know

2:23

you are in the trenches. So I know you hear stories all

2:27

the time, but I was wondering if

2:29

we could kick off this conversation with

2:31

a story of one person whose health

2:33

changed or transformed thanks to

2:35

solid nutrition. Yes. Well,

2:37

actually, I hear stories every single

2:39

day because I have students in class every

2:42

single day and a lot of our students

2:44

come to school because they have experienced changes

2:47

in their health. Just as an

2:49

example, yesterday in class I had

2:51

a student who said that a

2:53

long history of colitis was changed,

2:55

altered, he no longer has those

2:57

symptoms after implementing nutritional strategies that

2:59

he has learned along the way,

3:02

plus adding things that he is

3:04

learning at our school. So that's

3:06

just one very simple example. As

3:08

I said, I hear multiple stories every

3:10

single day. Well, Diane, I feel like

3:12

we're so lost when it comes to

3:14

nutrition. People don't know what to eat.

3:16

There's almost too many diets and too

3:18

many voices coming at them. So

3:21

where do you all start? What is the foundation

3:23

for what you instruct in your school? The

3:27

school has been in existence for almost 25 years

3:30

and I have been the owner for

3:32

the last four going on five years.

3:34

I have been with the school for

3:37

many, many years since 2005 as a student, as

3:40

a graduate, as an

3:42

instructor, as the academic dean, and now

3:45

as the owner and director. It's cool

3:47

to see how you worked your way

3:49

up the ranks. So

3:51

what does NTI use as a

3:54

springboard for their nutrition education? We really

3:56

focus on my priority, my mission is to

3:59

make sure that our students understand

4:01

how to accomplish the

4:03

goal of making sure

4:06

that their diet is nutrient dense.

4:08

Like nutrient density is something that

4:10

we talk about all the time.

4:12

It is what permeates through everything

4:14

we do. And the way to

4:16

assure and ensure and understand nutrient

4:18

density is to, first of

4:20

all, understand from a science-based perspective

4:23

what role the nutrients play.

4:25

Each nutrient on its own,

4:27

what role those nutrients play

4:29

in human biochemistry and how they

4:31

bring about the function and the effect

4:33

that they have in the body. And

4:35

then number two is to understand what

4:39

are the most reliable dietary

4:41

sources of those nutrients. And

4:44

so that means what foods

4:46

have the highest quantity as

4:48

well as the most bioavailable source

4:51

of that nutrient. Because there are

4:53

many nutrients that are found in

4:55

foods that actually aren't easily bioavailable

4:58

because they are blocked by phytates,

5:00

oxalates, and other factors. So we

5:02

really focus on nutrient density from

5:04

that sort of viewpoint, the science-based

5:06

perspective of what it does and

5:09

then what's the most reliable source.

5:11

You may see my broad smile.

5:13

It's because nutrient density is so

5:15

key for the Western A Price

5:17

Foundation. As a matter of fact,

5:19

principle number three of the Wise

5:21

Traditions dietary principles is nutrient density.

5:24

It's the key that Dr. Price

5:26

found that the isolated indigenous people

5:28

groups has more nutrient-dense diets than

5:30

the diets of his day. So

5:32

I love that this is a

5:34

founding principle of your work. So

5:36

I do want to ask, how

5:38

can we identify the foods where,

5:40

as you mentioned, the quantity and

5:42

the bioavailability of those nutrients are

5:44

most plentiful? That's kind of why

5:46

we exist as a school because

5:48

it does require investigation. You

5:51

need to go into the research.

5:54

You need to have an understanding of the

5:56

biochemistry of the human body, the chemistry of

5:58

the nutrients, the chemicals. chemical structure

6:00

of nutrients, all of

6:05

which are just in one place. You can't

6:07

just pick up a magazine or a couple

6:10

page packet of something and get that information.

6:12

And so that's what we do, that's what

6:14

we teach. It's complex. I don't

6:16

want to say complicated but complex, right? And

6:18

that's why we also can't just pop a

6:20

pill and think, okay, I got my vitamin

6:22

D. No, that's not how

6:24

it works. All of these vitamins and

6:26

minerals and micro and macronutrients work together

6:29

in a beautiful synergy in the foods, don't

6:31

they? Oh, absolutely. And

6:33

we really focus on the fact

6:35

that we don't really talk

6:37

about eating this diet. We don't have

6:39

named diets. Certainly we cover what is

6:41

included in all of these named diets

6:43

so people have an understanding because they

6:45

need to be able to, their clients,

6:48

ask them questions about, well, what about

6:50

the such and such a diet? But

6:52

we don't in any

6:54

way promote that our graduates

6:56

should be going out and

6:58

telling their clients, you should

7:01

be doing this quote-unquote named

7:03

diet. Again, it all comes

7:05

from nutrient density but the important

7:07

thing to know is that the

7:10

best way to make sure you're

7:12

getting the broad range of all

7:14

the nutrients you need, vitamins, minerals,

7:17

phytonutrients, you need to have a

7:19

broad diet that has some

7:21

redundancy in it so that

7:24

you are ensuring because it's

7:26

very challenging to eat one

7:28

or two foods or a very limited

7:30

diet and get the full quantity of

7:33

the nutrients that you need. So you

7:35

have to have some redundancy by

7:37

eating a wide variety of foods.

7:39

And then, of course, there are

7:41

some less commonly

7:44

consumed superfoods which Western

7:46

Price Foundation members

7:48

and people who are interested in the Western

7:50

Price principles would know about and that is

7:53

organ meats and fermented foods

7:56

and if you are going to

7:58

consume grains and legumes. preparation

8:00

for those. So those would

8:02

be very

8:06

important to us. So I think it's a great question. I'm going

8:08

to ask you about that. And we do talk about that in

8:10

our program. An interview I did with Chris Masterjohn is coming to

8:12

mind because he was talking about the need to diversify our diet.

8:14

I think most people eat the same

8:16

foods over and over in the United States. It's

8:18

often the, let's say

8:20

broccoli, carrots, and potatoes, or the

8:22

side. And we have such a less diverse

8:24

diet than our ancestors did, even in the

8:26

very diets that Dr. Price

8:29

studied around the world. Yeah,

8:32

absolutely. I'm a big fan of

8:34

diversity. And there are some things

8:36

that some people may need to

8:38

exclude or avoid or

8:40

reduce because of certain sensitivities

8:42

and that kind of stuff. And that's

8:44

fine. But once you start excluding

8:47

something, then suddenly you think, oh, well

8:50

maybe I should exclude this. And maybe

8:52

I should exclude this. And now suddenly

8:54

you have whittled your diet down to

8:56

a very narrow range of foods. And

8:59

you are very likely to experience

9:01

nutrient deficiencies by doing that. And

9:04

do you think one reason people do this elimination, as

9:06

you said, it's because of sensitivities. And so they

9:10

think, okay, if I avoid it, then maybe my body will heal or

9:12

maybe I need to avoid it the rest of my life. But as

9:15

you said, the problem is that the diet becomes

9:17

more and more stringent and then they're going

9:19

to be lacking in certain elements. Yeah. I

9:21

think there are two things that prompt people

9:23

to do exclusions.

9:26

Number one, they definitely have, someone says

9:28

to them, whether it be a

9:31

nutrition therapist or a medical practitioner or a

9:33

family member, well, have you

9:35

tried not eating fish and fish because

9:38

they're talking about their symptoms, whatever their symptoms

9:40

are. So have you tried avoiding fish and

9:42

fish? And so they are prompted to do

9:45

that because they're

9:47

valuing whatever information they're getting from whoever

9:49

is giving it. And that's one thing.

9:51

And certainly they can, it is

9:54

very common that people will

9:57

experience a lot of the things that they

9:59

will experience. a reduction in

10:01

symptoms or elimination in symptoms by

10:03

avoiding certain things that their body

10:06

has an intolerance to or sensitivity.

10:08

And over time, yes, it can

10:10

come back in if they participate

10:13

and you know, take action to

10:16

address whatever was

10:18

causing them to be insensitive to it in the

10:20

first place. So it maybe can

10:22

come back in. But the other way

10:25

in which people start to self

10:28

initiate these very

10:30

exclusionary diets is that they

10:32

hear out in the ether,

10:34

you know of the nutrition

10:37

ether, they hear all these people.

10:40

Oh, everyone needs to be this free that

10:42

free, you know, free this, you know, and

10:44

suddenly now they're making

10:47

these decisions really without any justification

10:50

for doing it because they don't

10:52

necessarily have particular health conditions that

10:55

has a direct connection to those

10:57

things. So they start doing

10:59

that and now suddenly you really

11:01

can't track, you can't place that

11:04

actually was helping with any of

11:07

your symptoms because they're doing it in

11:09

a very disorganized way. When someone comes

11:11

to a nutrition therapist and we're going

11:13

to recommend an elimination diet, elimination and

11:15

then challenge diet, we're going to

11:17

do it in a very methodical way and they're

11:19

going to eliminate one thing at a time so

11:21

that we can track it and we're going to

11:24

do it for a specific amount of time. And

11:26

then when they challenge they're going to introduce it

11:28

in a very specific way so that they

11:31

can actually identify if that

11:34

particular food, I'm not talking about

11:36

a whole like mixed meal, I'm talking

11:38

about a single ingredient. If elimination

11:41

of that single ingredient is actually

11:44

going to allow them to have

11:46

benefit whatever their wellness goal is.

11:49

So I think if someone

11:51

is going to implement these exclusion

11:54

or elimination diets,

11:57

they need to do it in a way

11:59

that is planned out so they

12:01

can actually identify what the effects are. Yeah,

12:03

that makes sense and I think what I

12:05

was trying to get at in my question

12:07

which I didn't quite complete is that people

12:09

are doing it not only because it's trendy

12:11

or someone told them about it but because

12:14

they are having issues with their digestion and

12:16

they are sicker than the previous generations were.

12:18

I thought about this because I interviewed Sally

12:20

Norton about oxalates and when we published that

12:23

episode we got some pushback people saying, oh

12:25

no, is there anything that's safe to eat

12:27

anymore. She had a personal story

12:29

of how oxalates were bad for her and

12:31

I think it may be that oxalates are

12:33

difficult for others to process as well but

12:35

our ancestors had no trouble and in part

12:37

I think it's because they were healthier and

12:39

they also knew how to combine the foods

12:41

that were high on oxalates with foods that

12:44

could maybe a temper that and

12:46

they ate seasonally so they weren't eating sweet potatoes

12:48

all the time. They would only have them at

12:50

a certain time of year. There are just so

12:52

many factors that are making it difficult for us

12:54

to eat all the foods that everyone you see in my

12:56

opinion. What do you think of that Diane? I totally

12:59

agree with you. I get

13:01

a lot of pushback as well about

13:03

certain things because people say, well

13:05

we've been eating that food for

13:08

thousands of years in the human

13:10

diet so why suddenly now is

13:12

it causing problems. Well like you

13:14

say our ancestors were healthier because

13:16

they didn't have all the exposures

13:19

to the toxins and the chemicals

13:21

and all of the pesticides and

13:23

agricultural chemicals that are used and

13:25

toxins in our water and toxins

13:27

in our air that we are

13:30

exposed to now because of

13:32

all of the industrial processes

13:34

that are occurring in our

13:36

modern lives that fuse these

13:38

toxins into the environment and

13:40

onto our food and into

13:43

our water and all those

13:45

kinds of things. So that's

13:47

one, microbiomes are probably very

13:49

much altered because of all

13:52

of this toxin exposure. Our

13:54

microbiome plays a big role in

13:57

our health and our immune system so that's

13:59

a big difference. And then

14:01

stress levels, things

14:04

that were stresses were different. So

14:06

there's so many things that

14:08

are different about the way we live

14:10

now. And so when you

14:12

layer on these foods that could

14:15

have been tolerable and didn't

14:18

cause problems thousands of years ago, on

14:20

top of a template

14:23

of an already unhealthy

14:26

group of people, you are going

14:28

to start seeing problems. Absolutely. So I

14:30

don't blame people for hunting around for

14:32

solutions, though it would be preferable to

14:34

get guidance from someone who maybe knows

14:36

a little bit more about it than

14:39

they do. And that's why your school

14:41

is a valuable resource. And speaking of

14:43

schools, take us to one of the

14:45

first classes, pretend we're in like one of the 101 level

14:48

courses that you offer, bring us back to

14:50

the basics is what I'm trying to say,

14:52

Diane, and tell us about what the basic

14:55

building blocks are for balanced nutrition. We've alluded

14:57

to some of them already, but... Yeah. The

14:59

very first courses that people take here are

15:02

the science courses, anatomy

15:04

and physiology and biochemistry. And

15:07

we really don't get a whole lot

15:09

into nutrition in those courses. But the

15:11

next course, after those two foundational science

15:13

courses so that they understand about the

15:15

human body, how it works, biochemical

15:18

pathways, etc. Nutrients to the

15:20

Building Blocks is the first

15:22

nutrition 101 course that they

15:24

take. And we go through the

15:26

chemistry of all of the nutrients, the vitamins

15:29

and minerals. And we

15:31

don't really use the word balanced diet

15:33

here because balanced

15:36

diet has connotations of...

15:38

It comes from a very

15:40

conventional standpoint, a very conventional

15:42

viewpoint. In that context, balance

15:45

really refers to getting

15:47

nutrients within a certain caloric

15:50

limit. That's what is referred

15:52

to in balance from

15:54

a conventional standpoint. Oh, I didn't

15:57

know that. Yeah. And so that's

15:59

how... they frame it. It's

16:01

always how can you get, say

16:03

we say, the most nutrient possible

16:06

without exceeding your caloric limit?

16:08

Well, that really puts a

16:11

lot of restraints on things. So

16:13

we take the calorie counting out

16:15

of the picture and again we

16:17

go back to nutrient density because

16:19

as you know many of

16:21

the foods that are the most

16:24

nutrient dense are going to have

16:26

a higher caloric count if you're

16:28

counting calories because they do contain

16:31

fast because the nutrients that we

16:33

need oftentimes are what we need

16:35

to prioritize in our diet are those fat

16:37

soluble vitamins and those nutrients that can

16:39

only be found in higher fat foods.

16:42

So we kind of take

16:44

out that caloric limit from

16:47

our terminology. It's hard for

16:49

me to believe that some people are still

16:51

out there counting calories, the energy they get

16:53

from those certain food and how much they

16:55

need to move to burn it off. It just

16:57

feels so 1970s to me

16:59

but I guess things come and go and as

17:01

these things go I feel like fewer people are

17:04

interested in than that now but I could be

17:06

wrong. I may be running in different circles now.

17:08

I think it has to do with the circles

17:10

that we both run in because certainly no one

17:12

that I am directly connected

17:15

to and talking to and interacting

17:17

with is counting calories but I mean

17:19

you go to the grocery store and you

17:21

still see all the labels. Low fat, no

17:24

fat, no cholesterol and all of

17:26

these things are supposed to imply

17:28

that we must be staying within

17:31

a certain calorie count and even

17:33

on the revised FDA nutrition

17:35

facts label the calorie count of

17:38

that serving of food has been

17:40

now bolded and it's the largest

17:42

font on the label, the largest

17:45

font size. So it is very

17:47

clear that there is an intention

17:49

to get people to count

17:52

calories and limit their

17:54

calories to a certain threshold and

17:56

so while we may not be

17:58

doing that It is very

18:01

much part of the mainstream and what

18:03

the government agencies are still trying to

18:05

promote. Well, and of course there's still

18:08

a great desire by the American people with

18:10

obesity on the rise. There's a great desire

18:12

for people to lose weight. I know of

18:14

one young woman right now who's getting ready

18:16

for upcoming wedding and she's decided to do

18:18

Weight Watchers to fit into that dress, I

18:21

guess. And it's a sad state because as

18:23

we both know, it's not just about calories

18:25

and calories out. It's between

18:27

100 calories of broccoli and 100 calories

18:29

of a Snickers bar, right? So

18:31

I'm glad for your emphasis on

18:33

nutrient density. But speaking of weight

18:35

loss, do you address that at

18:37

all in your nutrition courses in

18:39

your entire... Yeah, we have a

18:41

course called Weight Management. It's called

18:43

Weight Management in Sports Nutrition. So

18:45

it's a course where people learn

18:47

about how the body partitions energy

18:50

usage and energy storage. And

18:53

so they learn about all

18:55

the different influences, the hormonal

18:57

influences, the genetic influences, the

18:59

food toxin influences, all of

19:02

these influences, the microbiome influence

19:04

on how the body

19:07

partitions that energy management. And

19:09

so by really

19:11

having a science-based understanding

19:14

of the biochemistry of the body

19:16

and how the body is... What exactly are

19:18

the mechanisms via which the body is doing

19:20

that? I'm not

19:22

going to say it's easy, but it becomes

19:25

easier to understand that it's

19:27

not just calories in, calories

19:29

out. There are many more things

19:31

that need to be considered. And considering

19:35

what are the microbiome and

19:37

how can you maybe adjust

19:39

the microbiome so that our

19:41

microbiota are not increasing caloric

19:44

uptake from the gut

19:46

because that's one of the things that

19:48

dysbiosis will do. It can

19:51

cause you to actually get

19:53

more calories from your food

19:55

than your own digestive system

19:57

would take in, the microbiota can...

20:00

increase that. There's a whole

20:02

range of things and yes we certainly do

20:04

cover it but everything we

20:06

do, everything we teach is

20:08

from the standpoint of you need to

20:10

know all of this so that as

20:12

you're working with an individual client you

20:14

can pick and choose the things that

20:16

are most relevant to that client based

20:19

on their history, based on what's

20:21

going on in their lives, based on their

20:23

food journal and their food

20:25

preferences and all those kinds of things so

20:28

we don't teach a cookie cutter approach that

20:30

says okay everyone who needs to lose weight

20:32

here's the plan for what that is because

20:34

it doesn't work that way. Coming

20:36

up Diane reveals

20:41

dramatic changes in her family's health thanks

20:43

to the 180 degree dietary

20:46

shift that she made for

20:48

herself and her family that

20:51

included introducing nutrient-dense animal foods

20:53

for critical fat-soluble vitamins in their

20:55

diet. You're listening to

20:58

the Wise Traditions podcast from the Weston

21:00

A Price Foundation. We pause now to

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23:20

This is Hoda Labrador and you're

23:22

listening to Wise Traditions. Now

23:28

let's pivot for a second Diane and

23:30

let's hear a little bit about your

23:32

history. Was it health concern that brought

23:34

you into this field or how did

23:36

you get started? Well I didn't really

23:38

know anything about nutrition. Way

23:41

back when I was in college, I

23:43

did take an elective in college because

23:45

I had to have some sort of

23:48

science elective and so I took a

23:50

nutrition course. I went to a college

23:52

that has a really prominent dietician program

23:55

and so I took a

23:57

nutrition 101 course at college and I actually

24:00

I absolutely hated it. It was just, I

24:02

just absolutely hated it. It seemed crazy

24:04

to me because it was all like

24:06

counting calories. You're counting calories, counting grams

24:08

of carbohydrates, counting grams of whatever. And

24:11

this was in the early 80s and

24:13

I would doubt that it has changed

24:15

in a nutrition 101 course.

24:18

But anyway, so I didn't like it then

24:20

so I didn't really focus on nutrition at

24:22

all coming out of college and

24:24

then into my early adulthood. And

24:27

I made a decision

24:29

to become a vegan and

24:32

was a vegan, mostly vegan

24:34

but certainly vegetarian for 10

24:36

years. And several

24:39

years later my son started

24:41

experiencing some pretty scary health

24:43

challenges but when he was

24:45

four years old I

24:47

took him to his first dentist appointment and he

24:49

had 10 cavities. And

24:51

he didn't eat sugar, we didn't eat candy in

24:53

our house, didn't eat a

24:55

diet that you would think would promote cavities.

24:58

And the dentist told me, oh it's genetics,

25:00

nothing you can do about it, it's all

25:02

genetics. And two of his cavities were

25:04

bad enough that he had to have what's called

25:06

baby root canals, he had silver

25:09

fillings put on those teeth and so

25:11

in every single school picture he's got

25:13

these silver fillings on these two teeth

25:16

that have the baby root canals. And

25:18

so I have this in all of

25:20

his school pictures I have this reminder

25:23

of this situation. I

25:26

went into a deep depression

25:28

honestly, I'm like how

25:31

could this happen because I thought

25:33

I was eating the best diet

25:35

that existed by eating a vegan

25:38

diet because that's what's promoted, that's

25:40

what's reinforced, was then continues

25:42

to be now, now he's almost 24 years

25:44

old. So I

25:47

had enough knowledge

25:49

to realize that maybe

25:51

this diet isn't working for us but

25:53

I didn't really know where to look

25:56

and it just so happened that I

25:58

was walking through our local local natural

26:01

health grocery store, and

26:03

I saw Sally Fallon's Nourishing

26:05

Traditions cookbook. And what

26:07

caused me to pick it up, I didn't know

26:09

anything about it, and what caused me to pick

26:11

it up was the cover is absolutely beautiful, as

26:13

you know. The artwork is fantastic.

26:16

And then the title of it, Nourishing

26:18

Traditions, and I thought, oh, well, that

26:20

sounds interesting. It's a beautiful book. There

26:22

must be something good in this book.

26:24

And I started reading in the first

26:26

65 pages, threw me

26:28

into even worse depression. I

26:31

was crying every day that we

26:33

were on vacation, and I was crying

26:35

every day because I

26:38

now started to realize

26:40

the mistakes that I had

26:42

made in prioritizing a vegan diet for

26:44

so long. And what I came

26:46

to learn is that we were

26:49

incredibly deficient in fat-soluble

26:51

vitamins. No vitamin A.

26:53

D. was only from sunlight. We weren't

26:55

getting any D in our diet, and

26:57

vitamin K2. And

27:00

that's probably, likely, what

27:02

contributed to my son's

27:04

cavities. And immediately, I

27:07

changed our diet 180 degrees,

27:09

started including animal foods, was

27:11

luckily able to start accessing

27:13

raw milk. And from

27:16

that point on, until he

27:18

was 17, he never got another poverty after that

27:21

initial thing.

27:25

What a story. And then he got another

27:27

couple of cavities when he was 17 because

27:29

at age 16, he got a job,

27:32

he got a car, and he

27:34

started eating crappy food again. And

27:37

so he got another couple of cavities,

27:39

but that was his fault, and he

27:41

made a mistake. But

27:43

the whole time he was in

27:45

my house eating my food from

27:47

that initial first dentist appointment, until

27:50

then he didn't get another single

27:52

cavity. So that was truly

27:54

my years-long aha

27:57

moment. Okay, that's it.

28:00

And at the same time, while we

28:02

were implementing these dietary changes and I

28:04

was seeing the benefits in my son's

28:06

teeth, both my son

28:09

and my husband had asthma.

28:11

And my husband's asthma, by

28:13

this time he's in his

28:15

mid-30s, my husband's asthma had

28:17

been lifelong. At that time,

28:19

he was on three different

28:21

steroid inhaler medications, taking

28:23

those three different medications twice a day

28:26

to survive, had

28:28

had a lifelong history of asthma

28:31

and as we started making dietary

28:33

changes, he stopped using, sequentially stopped

28:36

using his asthma medications to the

28:38

point where today he's on no

28:40

asthma medication. And my

28:42

son, also his asthma ended, stopped

28:45

and he's also on no asthma

28:47

medications. And prior to that, he

28:49

had been doing nebulizers every single

28:52

day just to survive. So I

28:54

have had amazing health

28:57

adjustments, health changes in

28:59

our life happen because

29:02

of dietary changes. And

29:05

it truly was just adding those

29:07

nutrient dense animal foods that provide

29:09

those fat soluble vitamins which was

29:11

I think the biggest impact. Diane,

29:13

I feel like so many people right

29:16

now are sick. They're either

29:18

having mental health issues, anxiety,

29:20

depression and so

29:22

forth or they talk about hormone

29:24

imbalances, menstruation that's out of whack

29:27

or thyroid issues, even fertility issues.

29:29

Are these also related to nutrition

29:31

do you think? Oh,

29:33

absolutely. Yeah, they definitely are. These

29:35

things would be categorized as chronic

29:37

illnesses and really all chronic

29:40

illnesses have an underlying

29:42

nutrition lifestyle factor. So

29:44

it could be obviously

29:46

lifestyle things and things that we

29:48

are unknowingly exposed to, toxins, those

29:50

kinds of things. But I think

29:53

that big issues are having metabolic

29:55

dysfunction that is a huge one

29:57

which is really just

29:59

natural. being able to properly handle

30:02

glucose and their insulin being

30:04

excessive because of their inability to

30:07

properly handle glucose. So

30:09

I think metabolic dysfunction is a

30:11

huge one. Ninety-two percent of the

30:13

population has poor metabolic function. That's

30:15

a big one. I think that

30:17

stress and the chronic

30:19

stress response that we are all

30:21

in because of a variety

30:24

of reasons that plays a huge

30:26

role. It definitely plays a role

30:28

in hormone imbalances and all

30:30

the things that you were kind of mentioning. Toxins

30:34

are a huge problem and people

30:36

not intentionally making food choices

30:38

with the idea that I'm trying to

30:40

reduce my toxin load because foods are

30:42

where we get most of our toxins. Certainly

30:45

we get toxins from water and we get toxins

30:47

from air but our foods are a big source

30:50

of toxins particularly because of all the agricultural

30:52

chemicals that are used in producing both

30:54

plant and animal foods. Yes, so I

30:57

think it's definitely a factor. What

30:59

I have going through my mind too are recent

31:02

interviews I've conducted. Well, one recently, one a

31:04

long time ago. I remember interviewing Kim Schuette

31:06

about bone broth. She used to be on

31:08

the board of the Westinay Prize Foundation and

31:11

she said that bone

31:13

broth aids in detoxification. And

31:16

then when I was interviewing Sally

31:18

yesterday, she said raw milk aids

31:20

in detoxification. I think if we're

31:22

getting the right nutrients and the right nutrient-dense

31:24

foods in our body, they help that

31:26

problem. Yes, absolutely. I mean glycine

31:29

which is so prevalently

31:31

available in bone broth,

31:34

glycine is a detoxification

31:37

pathway promoter. I mean, so

31:40

just simple glycine which is a simple

31:42

amino acid is so critically important for

31:45

detoxification. So, yes, bone broth would be

31:47

another one of those less

31:49

commonly consumed super foods that I was

31:51

mentioning earlier. Yes, absolutely. Yes, and I'm

31:53

glad that these came to my mind

31:56

just now because I want to ask you

31:58

about making those kind of super food choices

32:00

not in terms of kale and spinach and

32:02

the acai berries but in terms of the

32:05

standards of the Westman price foundation and your

32:07

organization that have an understanding that is based

32:09

on ancestral wisdom about what the foods really

32:11

have to offer in terms of as you

32:13

said at the top the quantity and the

32:16

bioavailability of nutrients. If you were gonna go

32:18

to the grocery store or the farmers market

32:20

or to your farmer what would you buy

32:22

and feel safe at

32:24

night like okay I got the good stuff from my family?

32:27

Well quite honestly I know

32:31

that I am supporting

32:33

my overall health when I

32:35

consume liver every single day

32:38

and making sure that I get liver

32:41

not pounds of it every single day

32:43

but a couple of ounces

32:45

three ounces of liver in a variety

32:47

of ways on a daily basis is

32:50

how I that's my multivitamin

32:53

so I think that's critically important

32:55

and then I think just animal

32:57

foods in general if I have

33:00

to choose between eating

33:02

I don't know like so if we're using

33:04

like kale as the example but I have

33:06

to choose between kale and liver I will

33:09

always choose liver because liver is gonna always

33:11

gonna be more nutrient dense than kale. I

33:13

like kale I enjoy eating kale but

33:16

if it's a choice between those

33:18

two things I'm gonna choose liver

33:20

but like for other nutrients like

33:22

B12 and iron and zinc I

33:25

just think that any kind of animal

33:28

foods are you know particularly red meats

33:30

are important I eat red meat every

33:33

single day in some way shape or

33:35

form not a 16 ounce steak

33:37

every single day you know people are like oh

33:39

my gosh you eat red meat every

33:41

day it's not a 16 ounce steak every

33:43

day but I eat some

33:46

quantity in one of

33:48

my meals every day I eat

33:50

some red meat and that's because

33:53

I know that it is a

33:55

reliable high quantity and reliable bioavailable

33:57

source of B12 zinc,

34:00

iron, and several other nutrients that

34:02

then I don't have to worry

34:04

about. Am I actually getting it

34:07

from these foods where there are

34:10

inhibitors, lockers, phytates, oxalates, all

34:12

those kinds of things that

34:14

bind those minerals? And

34:16

then I am lucky enough. We're in Colorado

34:18

just for those listening. We are in a

34:20

cowshare state. We do have access to raw

34:23

milk. I make yogurt with my milk and

34:25

I consume yogurt every single day. So those

34:27

are my reliable

34:30

things that I do on a daily basis to

34:32

know, to feel, as you say, when I go

34:34

to bed I know that I got

34:36

my nutrients for the day and I don't have

34:38

to be nervous that

34:40

I missed out on something. Diane,

34:43

what would you say to the person who is

34:46

listening right now who might be a gasp like,

34:49

oh my gosh, everything she said flies in

34:51

the face of the recommended

34:53

dietary guidelines for the government and this

34:55

is just so strange. What would you

34:57

say to that skeptic or

34:59

person who's questioning what you're saying?

35:01

Yes, this happens on

35:03

a regular basis. In

35:06

fact, I was giving a presentation last

35:08

week, a public presentation last week, 60

35:11

some people in the room, and I

35:13

had a woman stand up and tell me that I was

35:15

crazy, absolutely crazy, and tell

35:17

me that she has never heard of

35:19

anyone who knows anything about health

35:21

or about medicine,

35:23

a health care practitioner, tell people

35:26

to eat liver. She

35:28

said that is crazy. You don't know what

35:30

you're talking about, and she said

35:32

to tell people to eat animal foods is

35:34

the most dangerous thing you can do. So

35:36

this happens to me a lot. So

35:40

some things that I say are, number one,

35:42

the nutrition guidance

35:44

that we get from our

35:47

trusted health authorities, whether it

35:49

be a government agency or

35:51

a nonprofit public agency.

35:53

So USDA, FDA

35:55

would be government agencies,

35:58

nonprofit agencies. would be

36:00

things like the Academy of Nutrition

36:02

and Dietetics, which is supposed to

36:04

be the arbiter of nutrition, right?

36:06

Or the American Heart Association. These

36:09

agencies, number one, they're

36:11

conflicted because they are

36:13

influenced by corporate money.

36:17

So they have a lot of corporate sort

36:19

of conflict. And for

36:22

them to go against what their

36:24

corporate conflicts are would be unacceptable

36:27

for them to say those

36:30

things in public. And second of all, they

36:32

are relying on decades old, quite

36:36

frankly, inaccurate information about

36:38

nutrition, especially

36:41

this focus on low-fat, no-fat,

36:43

and reduction of saturated fat

36:47

and reduction of dietary cholesterol. I

36:49

mean, the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which

36:52

is a very, very important issue, which

36:55

is distributed by the USDA,

36:58

and it comes out every five years, and

37:00

it's kind of like this big splash. Here's

37:03

what the official Dietary Guidelines for Americans are.

37:07

19 of the 20 members

37:09

of the most recent committee

37:11

that created the Dietary Guidelines,

37:13

they're conflicted by corporate interests

37:15

in corporate or pharmaceutical industries.

37:18

And so, of course, they're going to

37:20

say things that is in

37:22

line with the corporations who

37:24

want to promote that we

37:26

eat poor-quality, nutrient-deficient food because

37:28

it supports their bottom line.

37:30

They're really supporting their own

37:32

bottom line. But this drive

37:35

to continually tell people

37:37

that low-fat, no-fat, and

37:39

saturated fat and dietary

37:41

cholesterol, avoidance of those

37:43

things is health-promoting. I

37:46

think the evidence is clear. Our

37:48

population in this country are not

37:50

getting healthier since we've

37:53

been on this path of this

37:55

low-fat, eat a bunch

37:57

of refined vegetable oils, they're

38:00

not telling us to eat refined sugars, but

38:02

when you take the fat out of the

38:04

foods and you refine the foods, what

38:07

goes back into it? Sugars, artificial

38:09

flavorings, artificial colorings, all of the

38:11

chemicals that make it look like

38:14

food and potentially

38:16

smell like food and taste like

38:18

something that we call food, but

38:21

just because it's edible doesn't actually

38:23

mean it is food that is

38:25

supporting our health, our wellness,

38:27

our long-term survival.

38:29

And so we are

38:31

not a society that's getting healthier

38:33

on this 45

38:36

year old paradigm of low

38:39

fat, no fat and avoid animal

38:41

foods. We're not getting healthier. And

38:44

what do you think is behind the anti-meat push?

38:46

It's not the same groups or is it? Some

38:49

of it is. The Dietary Guidelines

38:51

for Americans says to reduce your

38:53

consumption of animal food. They don't overtly

38:55

say to completely avoid it, but

38:58

they say reduce as much as

39:00

possible and replace animal foods with

39:03

healthy protein sources, which is

39:05

nuts, seeds and legumes. There's

39:09

a great incentive that is

39:11

being promoted by this concept

39:13

that animal foods are the

39:15

biggest contribution to climate

39:17

change, which is also inaccurate

39:19

when you actually look at the

39:22

science. It is inaccurate. And I'm

39:24

sure your listeners know that when

39:27

animal raised in a regenerative way,

39:30

they're actually promoting

39:33

a healthy environment because they

39:35

are creating a soil system

39:37

that is capturing carbon and

39:40

keeping carbon in the ground rather than

39:42

letting it release into the atmosphere and

39:45

improving soil structure, improving

39:48

soil content. You know, we've lost like

39:50

some massive

39:53

amount, feet worth of topsoil over

39:55

the last hundred years and regeneratively

39:59

raised in animal foods are

40:01

actually building back the

40:06

soil. In fact, it is degrading

40:08

the soil faster than we're ever

40:11

going to be able

40:13

to regenerate it back potentially. So I think that's a big part of

40:15

it. Yeah,

40:17

and that information coming to us from the dietary

40:19

guidelines and from the campaigns

40:22

to have us eat less meat, it is

40:24

so good at programming us that dutifully,

40:28

I will say Americans are complying just the

40:30

other day a relative mind

40:33

was like, oh, I'm trying to eat more beans and I was like, oh,

40:35

well, I don't know if they're

40:37

going to get everything that they need from those although it's

40:40

certainly properly prepared, they're a fine part of the diet but

40:42

I think it's really

40:44

getting ingrained in the mind and in the

40:46

collective consciousness of our country.

40:48

I totally agree with you and I like how you

40:51

put it that we dutifully comply.

40:53

We're pretty good at doing that without asking

40:56

questions and without asking

40:59

questions and without having discernment and

41:02

without critical thought. That's why this

41:04

school continues to exist and we

41:07

can continue to have students

41:09

come here because they want to

41:11

be able to understand how to

41:13

critically evaluate this messaging that we're

41:15

getting from the government agencies,

41:18

the other public agencies, all

41:20

these kinds of things and the

41:22

marketing on food labels. I mean

41:25

these front-of-package health claims,

41:28

most people get their nutrition

41:30

knowledge from the front of

41:32

packages, right? When they see

41:34

front of package health claims,

41:37

health, lower cholesterol, low fats,

41:39

low sodium, all of these claims on

41:41

the front of the labels signals

41:44

to the person that they are making

41:46

a decision, food buying decision

41:48

that is actually going to

41:50

benefit their health and

41:52

they do that because they think that

41:55

well those claims wouldn't be there if

41:57

it weren't actually going to do something

41:59

but the... The thing I don't realize

42:01

is that the health claims on

42:03

the front of packages are not

42:05

really there to help people make

42:07

better dietary choices. They're

42:09

there to sell a packaged product. And

42:13

there are several countries, of which

42:15

United States is not one, where

42:17

instead of having authorized

42:19

health claims on packages of

42:21

food and other things, they

42:24

have warning labels. By

42:27

the way, and I don't know what they

42:29

exactly look like, but Chile and Peru, I

42:31

know, are two countries where I've been told

42:33

that this happened, where they have warning labels.

42:36

By the way, this has such and such

42:38

amount of sugar. Or by the way,

42:40

this has this. So rather than trying

42:42

to turn this messaging on

42:44

its head like, a good source of whole

42:46

grains, low fat, but

42:49

then you look at the ingredient label and

42:51

the first four ingredients are some kind of

42:53

sugar. This is what happens with Fox breakfast

42:56

cereals. It's like on the front of the

42:58

package, they're trying to tell you this is

43:00

going to promote your health, low fat and

43:03

whole grains. But then when

43:05

you look, sure, there's going to be some

43:07

sort of grain product. But then the next

43:09

three or four ingredients are

43:11

sugar, corn syrup, corn starch,

43:14

some kind of sugar. And

43:16

people don't realize that. They don't think to turn

43:19

and look at the ingredient list. Well,

43:21

I'm so pleased to hear how

43:23

your story has taken you from

43:25

going with whatever you thought was

43:27

best at the time to critically

43:29

thinking, Diane, and examining your food

43:31

and making different choices. It's

43:33

improved the health of your family, of course, your

43:36

own health as well. And countless people who've come

43:38

to your Institute for Learning. I think it's fabulous.

43:40

Thank you for sharing all that you've learned along

43:42

the way. And I want to finish this interview,

43:45

this conversation with a question I'd love to pose

43:47

at the end. If the listener could

43:49

just do one thing to improve their

43:51

health, what would you recommend? I

43:53

would recommend that, and I make

43:55

this recommendation to everyone, that you

43:57

need to have intention and support.

44:00

sourcing basic food ingredients and

44:02

that means things that don't need labels

44:04

and don't need ingredient lists because it's

44:06

just one thing It's meat.

44:09

It's a vegetable if they're going to

44:11

do grain. It's a grain so

44:13

sourcing basic ingredients with intentions

44:15

thinking about Organic and

44:18

pasture-raised and all those kinds of things

44:20

and then cook for yourself put

44:23

those basic ingredients into a meal

44:25

that you have prepared and so now

44:27

you have Process so, you

44:30

know cooking is a form of

44:32

food processing you have processed it

44:34

yourself, but you've had control over

44:36

the initial ingredients that go into

44:39

that and That is

44:41

one of the best ways to take

44:43

control of your health and because anytime

44:46

someone else anytime you're outsourcing your

44:49

food To someone else

44:51

it is not part of their

44:53

drive To

44:55

make sure that the food they're preparing is

44:57

going to support your wellness the

45:00

drive is to make sure that you spend money on

45:02

their product and We all

45:04

have to remember that anytime you outsource

45:06

your food here someone else you are

45:08

not getting the most healthy the most

45:10

nutrient-dense food Perfect words to

45:13

end on I'm so thankful for this conversation.

45:15

We look forward to our next time Diane.

45:17

Thank you. Thanks Our

45:21

guest today was Diane Kohler you can visit

45:23

her website ntischool.com to

45:25

learn more and

45:27

she is offering a special

45:30

for wise tradition listeners Get half

45:32

off of your first nutrition program

45:34

course go to ntischool.com/wise traditions to

45:36

take advantage of this Exclusive offer

45:38

and I'm a little about agora

45:40

the host and producer of this

45:43

podcast for the West N.A. Price

45:45

Foundation You can find me

45:47

at holistic Hilda dot-com and for the transcript

45:49

for this episode visit our website West N.A.

45:51

Price dot-org and click on the podcast page

45:54

and Now for

45:56

a recent podcast review from Apple Public Long

45:59

life 1977-81 said this, life-changing, one of Love

46:08

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46:10

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46:12

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46:18

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46:20

you for listening. Stay well and remember to keep

46:23

your feet on the ground and your face to

46:25

the sun. On

46:27

behalf of the Weston A. Price Foundation,

46:29

thanks for listening. We have

46:31

many free resources to support

46:33

you on your health journey.

46:35

Visit westonaprice.org to find podcasts,

46:37

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46:40

can also find a local chapter near you

46:42

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46:45

We invite you to support the

46:47

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46:49

activism by becoming a member. Thanks

46:51

again and take care. Wise Traditions

46:54

is a project of the Weston A.

46:56

Price Foundation for wise traditions in food,

46:58

farming, and the healing arts. The

47:00

content on this podcast is provided for informational

47:02

purposes only and is not intended to substitute

47:04

for the advice provided by your doctor or

47:06

other health care professional. It is not intended

47:09

to be nor does it constitute health care

47:11

or medical advice.