0:20

Welcome to Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The

0:22

Witch Trial Podcast. I'm Josh

0:24

Hutchinson.

0:26

And I'm Sarah Jack.

0:28

In this episode we speak with

0:31

Richard S. Ross III,

0:33

historian and author of Before

0:36

Salem: Witch Hunting in the Connecticut River

0:38

Valley, 1647 to 1663.

0:43

And we'll be talking Connecticut Witch

0:45

Trials throughout this episode.

0:49

We begin with a discussion of what led

0:51

to the witch trials in Connecticut.

0:54

How the events in the colonies and

0:56

back in England affected witch-hunting

0:59

in the colonies.

1:01

Conflict with the Dutch and Native

1:03

Americans.

1:05

The influence of the English Civil War.

1:08

The impact of

1:10

the self-proclaimed Witchfinder General,

1:13

Matthew Hopkins.

1:15

What were his witchfinding techniques,

1:17

and what were other witchfinding techniques

1:20

that were used in the colonies?

1:23

We'll discuss the supposed

1:25

diabolical conspiracy to undo

1:27

the church.

1:29

And differences between beliefs of common

1:31

people and upper classes and clergy.

1:35

Cover all that and more. We

1:37

also have a special treat for

1:39

you this week. We have

1:41

author Beth Caruso returning

1:44

to the show to discuss

1:46

the possible

1:49

location of the witch

1:52

trial hanging site.

1:55

And a magnificent

1:58

tree that unfortunately

2:00

no longer lives called

2:02

the Witch Elm.

2:04

We'll tell you where you can find a photo of it.

2:06

And we'll have linked to that in the show

2:09

notes.

2:11

Now here's Richard Ross III.

2:12

Like, I did a talk at uh,

2:14

Center Church in Hartford, as an example,

2:17

and when I finished, uh, a lot of the people

2:19

were actually descendants of

2:22

the people in Hartford, because this

2:24

church is right in Hartford. I think it's the second

2:26

congregational church. and They were just so

2:28

enthusiastic, because they didn't know this their their

2:30

family and their ancestors. I, I enjoy doing

2:32

and and helping people understand

2:34

their past better as way of saying it.

2:38

Yeah. We really appreciate what you've

2:40

done for the Connecticut

2:43

witch trial history. It's so great

2:45

to get it out in the open, and

2:48

we encounter quite a number of descendants.

2:51

Oh, I bet.

2:51

Have a lot working with us on

2:54

the exoneration project. One of our goals

2:56

is just to get the education

2:58

out there, get the history

3:01

out there among everybody.

3:04

I'm gonna tell you, I'll tell you something, this

3:06

is how I got interested in this. I'm not from

3:08

Connecticut, and so

3:10

I moved here to take the job at Trinity.

3:13

And my wife, who has since

3:15

passed away, unfortunately. But

3:17

she saw something in the paper, a little article

3:20

about, Connecticut Witch. It was just a

3:22

witch's little, and I said, "I

3:24

never heard of that. What is going on

3:26

here?" And so then I was

3:28

able to I was getting ready to teach a course

3:31

witch trials. I'm put it that way. It

3:34

wasn't witchcraft, it's about the

3:36

witches and the trials and what happened. But

3:38

it was in Salem that I

3:40

first thought I would talk

3:42

about with my class. And it was a seminar,

3:45

first year seminar for the students. And

3:48

what happened was, I started off with Salem,

3:50

because there's plenty of material on Salem,

3:52

but I started looking into Connecticut,

3:55

but there wasn't much material in Connecticut.

3:57

So I started doing research and started

4:00

pulling together the material that I could, so

4:02

that I could give my students, they

4:05

could do papers on the Connecticut Witch

4:07

trials, which is what I wanted them to do.

4:09

And that's how I got started into all the business

4:12

of looking at different trials

4:14

and what happened and trying to do research

4:17

on the history. And that's how I got started

4:19

on it.

4:20

We're so glad that you did.

4:23

There's always been this theory, and it may be correct,

4:25

I don't know, but that the Connecticut fathers,

4:27

so to speak, didn't really want to talk about

4:30

it. There wasn't much they could do in

4:32

Salem, because it was out there. They did

4:34

something else in the end, they turned around

4:36

and made a production out of it, so that

4:38

now Halloween is like the biggest event

4:40

in Salem, the month

4:42

of October. But Connecticut's

4:45

always been pretty quiet about it. You talk to people

4:47

in Connecticut, and you talk

4:50

about witches in Connecticut, and they won't know what you're

4:52

talking about. They've never heard of it. Recently,

4:55

of course, we're getting more out there, and the Exoneration

4:57

Project is helping. The first one,

4:59

I guess a few number of years ago, didn't really

5:02

get out there. There's been a lot more research,

5:04

let's put it that way, so that people have something

5:06

to look at and to see what we're

5:08

talking about. But it's

5:10

always been quiet, and it's

5:12

only been, I would say,

5:16

I think it was in 1905, as an example,

5:18

that Trumbull's daughter published

5:21

that article in the Hartford Courant and

5:24

actually named Alice Young or Youngs as the

5:26

first woman executed in

5:28

New England for witchcraft. So

5:31

it hasn't been that long. There were articles

5:33

in the newspapers in the early

5:36

1900s. They had discovered

5:39

some documents that the Wyllys

5:41

family had held all those years, and

5:44

those came out, but they, people were

5:46

aware of it, but only really the

5:48

genealogists and historians,

5:51

and that group of people, that really

5:53

wasn't out there in the public eye. And it really hasn't

5:55

been until just recently, I guess

5:57

best way of saying it.

5:59

We'd like to ask you some questions

6:01

about your book. You begin with an excellent

6:04

explanation, giving

6:06

the background of what

6:09

was going on in England and

6:11

New England before the Witch trials. Can

6:14

you tell us how the wilderness

6:16

of New England challenged the colonists?

6:19

If you think of the wilderness, like when Christ

6:21

went out into the wilderness and confronted the devil.

6:24

That was the, that was the image the

6:26

way they were living it. It was primarily,

6:28

I think the Native Americans that they

6:30

confronted. As they were able to

6:33

settle at least initially New

6:35

England because so many of the

6:37

Native Americans had died from

6:39

epidemic disease. When

6:41

they moved in and it wasn't necessarily

6:43

from the colonists themselves.

6:45

There were people that were here before the colonists,

6:48

fur trappers, people that came in,

6:50

and that disease had already been going

6:52

in waves like smallpox, things

6:54

like that. So when they settled,

6:57

here they are in the wilderness with wild

6:59

animals. It was certainly

7:02

not anything like the way

7:04

it was back in England. And

7:06

so they had to learn a whole new way

7:08

of life and confront themselves.

7:10

They had to confront themselves what they

7:13

were and what it was like living

7:15

out there. The sun goes down at night, it's pitch black.

7:18

You hear things there. There are stories

7:20

that you've heard about from

7:22

back in England about the demons

7:25

and witches and things like that. Psychologically

7:27

it was very disturbing to the people. They

7:29

just we're not used to it. The Native

7:32

Americans, they considered these

7:34

people to be the devil's minions.

7:36

They felt that when they came here

7:38

that they were coming to the Devil's Land,

7:41

his kingdom, and they were invading

7:43

his kingdom, and they had to fight back, so

7:45

to speak. That's another thing.

7:48

And you mentioned that the population

7:50

had been reduced due to sickness.

7:52

Is there other reasons that

7:54

they were able to acquire and settle into the territory

7:57

that made things tenuous

8:00

between the Native Americans

8:02

and the colonists?

8:04

One of the things is the colonists had weapons

8:06

like guns, right? Native

8:08

Americans didn't have guns. And

8:11

we know that every time somebody got close, if

8:13

they tried to sell 'em a gun, they could. We think

8:15

that's what happened to John Carrington.

8:18

He got in trouble for, they thought he was

8:20

trying to sell a gun, and that wasn't probably

8:22

the reason initially. It

8:24

might have made him, they

8:26

might have been suspicious of him. And

8:28

then other things came into play that finally

8:30

got him convicted of being a witch

8:33

and his wife too, which I have no idea why his

8:35

wife was, but obviously he associated

8:37

with her. So maybe that's what did it.

8:39

And you noted that the

8:42

colonists experienced

8:44

trauma from all the conflict.

8:47

How did that affect their mindset?

8:50

The conflict with the Native Americans, the

8:53

warfare.

8:55

It seemed a lot of the people that were

8:57

accused of being witches were, somehow or other,

8:59

they tried to implicate them with getting involved

9:01

with the Native Americans. Remember, these

9:03

people believed that

9:06

they were living in the end times and

9:09

that the Native Americans

9:11

were servants of Satan

9:13

and that Satan was trying

9:16

to convert as many

9:18

of even the colonists to turn away from

9:20

God, so that there would be fewer

9:23

people that would be saved, so to speak. The

9:25

Native Americans, their religion wasn't Christian.

9:28

So that they did things

9:30

that they felt were Deviltry,

9:33

and even one of the things that comes up sometimes

9:36

is the idea that, especially

9:39

with the women, that they were, may

9:41

have used like Native Americans healing

9:43

methods, something like that, which I

9:45

don't believe that these women did,

9:48

because whatever healing

9:50

methods they took with them probably

9:52

came from England, because to get involved with

9:54

Native Americans healing at all would've

9:57

been anathema. They really would've

9:59

been considered witches because of

10:01

getting involved in that. I know, for a number of

10:03

different cases, that

10:05

there's always somehow a mention

10:07

of Native Americans. Even the famous case of

10:10

Elizabeth Seager, the witness

10:12

claims that she, that she and her

10:14

friends were dancing around a pot, a

10:17

kettle, and they could see what

10:19

they thought were Native Americans involved in

10:21

it, and there's another case with Mary Staples

10:24

some kind of like little Native Americans

10:26

memento of some sort that they,

10:29

somebody thought they saw her holding. In other words,

10:31

they tried to connect them with the Native Americans,

10:33

but they never really convicted

10:36

the Native Americans of being witches, and they

10:38

didn't take 'em to court. And the Native

10:40

Americans were not Christians,

10:42

they were outside the community, cuz they

10:44

weren't betraying their

10:47

belief in God. But

10:49

the Christians that were in the community,

10:52

the colonists, if they turned

10:54

to Satan, they signed a pact with Satan, et

10:56

cetera. They were turning their back on God

10:58

and they deserved, they were witches, because they were,

11:00

working against God.

11:03

That's very good distinction. Thank you. Can

11:05

you explain more about the chiliastic

11:07

view of the times, what that means?

11:10

You have to remember that in

11:13

England at the time, I

11:15

talk about the Civil War in

11:17

England, about 1642

11:19

to about 1649. There

11:22

was the belief that once

11:25

they got rid of the king, which they did

11:27

in 1649, they beheaded

11:29

him, when Cromwell came to

11:31

the throne, that

11:34

he would usher in the

11:36

end times, the reign of Jesus, and

11:38

that's what they believed, and

11:41

they believed it was coming. There was a lot of this belief

11:43

at that time period, because that's

11:45

what the puritans believed, that they were getting pretty close

11:48

to the time when Jesus would reign

11:50

on this earth. And that's what chiliastic

11:52

view was.

11:55

And how did that view influence

11:57

the Witch hunting?

12:00

If they believed that

12:02

the end times are coming, as I said before,

12:05

then they believed that the Devil was trying to

12:07

turn as many good Christians

12:10

to his side and away from

12:12

God as possible. And he was

12:14

getting really desperate, basically,

12:16

because the end times are coming. And

12:18

so he wanted as many souls as he could get.

12:21

That's pretty crude, but that's probably the way

12:23

it went. And so this

12:25

is what they were fighting against, and boy,

12:27

were they disappointed when Cromwell died and

12:29

then when Charles II came to the throne,

12:31

that didn't help either, cuz see, they expected

12:34

the world to be different, and it wasn't. It

12:37

went back to the way it had been, but

12:39

it didn't stop 'em from going after witches. It might have even,

12:42

it might have even worked the opposite. Let's

12:44

get rid of these people while we can.

12:46

And are there other ways that the English

12:48

Civil War was opening the door to the witch trials?

12:50

I know you just said that they were thinking

12:53

let's get rid of them while we can.

12:55

I'll tell you exactly what happened. During the

12:57

English Civil War, this is the way I look at it, there

13:00

were, immediately whenever there's any

13:02

kind of conflict like that, and it was a

13:04

civil war. So those are worse

13:06

than wars against other people, just like our

13:08

own civil war, how many, over 600,000

13:10

people, American soldiers

13:13

died in our civil war. And it was

13:15

pretty brutal war. And that's what the Civil

13:17

War in England was pretty brutal, too. And

13:20

plus it was, it, God is on our side

13:22

type of approach, the chiliastic approach

13:24

there. Basically what

13:26

happens is there is no real government during

13:29

this, during the Civil War, because they're fighting

13:31

with each other pretty much. So

13:35

that means that the government, the

13:37

power centers come down to the towns, the locals,

13:40

and whoever's in charge. And

13:43

so what happens is, in this particular case,

13:45

as I said each side, because

13:47

it's so brutal, they start calling the other

13:49

side antichrist. They've got witches.

13:52

That gets really brutal. And

13:55

so each side is calling each other that in

13:57

these names and saying that they've got the antichrist

13:59

and the devil on their side. And

14:02

so now we get Matthew Hopkins,

14:04

the witchfinder general, and

14:06

Matthew Hopkins is an East Anglia, he

14:09

and John Stearne, and there's a couple,

14:11

there's a midwife. They decide they're going to go

14:13

from village to village and find witches. And

14:16

he comes up with a scheme to do this. He

14:19

has these ideas, which

14:21

I think actually happened before, but anyway,

14:23

started using them, floating witches,

14:25

putting witches in the water, right, poking

14:28

them, looking for the witch's

14:30

teat, the devil's mark, making

14:33

them walk, particularly observing them,

14:35

looking for familiars. And

14:37

these things begin to percolate

14:40

in England for a while, until

14:42

the government starts to clamp down on it

14:44

about 1647. But

14:47

these ideas find their way over

14:49

to New England. And the other thing you have

14:51

to know is that, during the

14:53

time period in the 1630s and 1640s

14:56

and even a good part of the, most of the 1650s,

15:00

there was no authority from

15:02

England over here in New England.

15:05

They weren't interested in the New

15:07

England colonies very much at all. It

15:09

isn't until the 1660s when Charles

15:12

II comes back as king,

15:14

that he starts to say, "wait a minute.

15:16

I want to do something about these colonies.

15:18

They should be obeying English law, et cetera,

15:21

et cetera. We should tax

15:23

them." That wasn't being done previously, so they were all

15:25

pretty much on their own. So

15:27

anyway, the trials that

15:29

they had were local, and as I've said

15:32

before, one of the problems with Connecticut

15:34

was that Connecticut was not settled

15:36

as an appropriate colony. It

15:39

didn't really get the permission

15:41

to be a colony until John

15:43

Winthrop Jr. actually goes

15:46

over in 1660 to

15:48

get the charter. And

15:51

that causes problems, too, when he goes over there.

15:53

But anyway, my point is that it

15:55

was pretty neglected area for almost 30

15:58

years, as far as England was concerned.

16:01

And so that you had these courts, for example,

16:03

like the particular court that was set up in

16:05

Connecticut. And they were using English

16:08

law. They were trying to use English law, but

16:10

it wasn't like they were appointed by somebody

16:12

from England, let's put it that way. They

16:14

said they established their own courts

16:17

and that happened, too, in Massachusetts,

16:19

were a little different. Although during the Salem

16:22

Witch Trials, the Court of Oyer and Terminer

16:24

really wasn't a legitimate court. It wasn't

16:26

until December of 1692 that

16:28

they actually get a legitimate court. And

16:31

when they get the legitimate court in 1692,

16:33

all of a sudden they decide

16:36

that this hasn't really gone well then.

16:38

And people that were actually admitted

16:41

to being witches were actually let go. And

16:44

the people prior to that, the people that had said they

16:46

weren't witches were the ones that were hanged.

16:48

And so you

16:51

state, and we know that, to

16:55

this community, witches did exist

16:57

and they felt that there was biblical

16:59

authority and their

17:01

basic laws were confirming that. Is there

17:03

anything you can tell us about that to understand

17:07

their mentality on that?

17:09

Well, they live in a different world than we do. So

17:12

I try to make that point. We live in a more

17:14

analytical world, where we can look at things

17:16

and determine what's real and what isn't. And those

17:19

days, they just didn't have that ability. It just

17:21

didn't exist. You don't get that

17:23

really started until about the time of the,

17:25

the enlightenment, and plus it was

17:27

very, it was totally religious. And

17:30

the religious authorities, if you look at the

17:32

laws, if you look at the

17:35

church, even the

17:37

Westminster Assembly, they admit

17:39

that there were witches and

17:41

that there's always been witches,

17:44

right? We've always heard of witches. The

17:47

problem is, and I go into

17:49

this when I give my talks, is

17:51

that there's a difference

17:53

between what people believed, that

17:56

the lower classes, so to speak, believed about

17:58

what witches, who the witches were and what they did.

18:00

And basically those people believed the witches

18:02

just did harm, just harm, and

18:05

so you would pick out one or two, and you

18:07

would say, "the, this person did this,"

18:09

and if they could figure out a way to prove it, or

18:11

they would use crowd, go after

18:13

them and hang them or do whatever they did. That

18:16

was one thing. But what we're talking about

18:19

here is what we call

18:21

diabolical witchcraft or satanism.

18:24

Now, this comes about in

18:27

around the middle of the 15th

18:30

century, because the

18:33

church, the Catholic church on

18:35

the continent, and I'll do this

18:37

real quick, determines that,

18:40

the theologians determine that the church

18:42

is in a lot of trouble in this time period.

18:45

And so they decide, it can't be us.

18:48

It's gotta be, it's gotta be Satan. It's

18:51

gotta be somebody on the outside. It's gotta be the devil.

18:53

It's causing all the problems that we have, between

18:55

the Black Death and just all

18:57

kinds of issues that I go into. So

19:00

what they say is, "okay. So

19:02

we're talking about a conspiracy now. We're not talking

19:04

about an individual witch that lives down the end

19:06

of the town, who sits, is by herself

19:09

and reads fortunes. We're talking

19:11

about somebody who's actually signed

19:13

a compact with the Devil, and

19:17

there's a conspiracy to undo the church

19:19

and undo all of God's work." And

19:22

that's the difference between the

19:24

what we're talking about here. And that's why

19:26

you get a difference, even in New

19:29

England and England, between

19:32

what the regular person thought about who a

19:34

witch was and what the clergy thought a witch was.

19:36

They thought diabolical witchcraft.

19:39

The average person thought, "oh, they've harmed me."

19:41

That's it. They don't get into the devil

19:44

business as much. It comes later, though. Obviously,

19:46

it comes down, it spreads, from the

19:48

upper classes down to the peasants and stuff

19:50

like that. So

19:53

what happens, though, the best part of this

19:55

is, okay, so on the continent things

19:57

happen like people are burned as witches,

19:59

right? And we know that. But

20:02

you notice that they don't burn them in England.

20:05

They hang them. And the reason

20:07

for this is because on

20:09

the continent, witchcraft is a heresy.

20:13

In England it's a felony. In

20:16

England, you get a trial by jury, and

20:19

you know you gotta defend yourself, but

20:21

at least, and you don't get tortured. On

20:23

the continent, you get tortured. And

20:26

you have, the trial is a kind of a Roman

20:28

Inquisitionarial trial where

20:31

there's three judges, and one of the judges

20:33

is supposed to help you. And you're probably

20:35

considered guilty. You have to prove that you're innocent. Whereas

20:38

in an English court, of course, you were innocent

20:40

until proven guilty. So

20:43

this comes about because of Henry VIII,

20:45

which is really interesting, cuz people give him such a bad

20:47

rap. But he probably saved a lot of people from being

20:50

killed as witches. And basically what

20:52

he did was parliament, I guess, passed

20:54

the law that said witchcraft was a felony.

20:57

Once it became a felony, it meant that, you obviously

20:59

got a court trial, and you got

21:02

the ability to defend yourself and

21:04

you couldn't be tortured, can't be tortured for a

21:06

felony. So these are the

21:09

kinds of laws that get, then

21:11

the laws get passed later with Elizabeth

21:13

and then James I of

21:15

England. So there are witchcraft laws

21:18

passed, but at least there is a little bit of defense.

21:20

There's an ability to limit

21:24

the number of people they're going to be accused

21:26

of being witches. One of the ways they do that

21:28

is because they don't allow torture. Whereas

21:31

on the continent, people were naming names

21:34

constantly, and that's why you had thousands of people supposedly

21:37

or a whole village wiped out. Whereas

21:39

in England, the maximum was probably

21:42

like under Matthew Hopkins,

21:45

probably maybe a hundred to 200. That's

21:47

all. And even in

21:49

New England, even though it's a terrible

21:51

thing that happened, was still limited to

21:53

the number of people that were actually tried

21:56

and convicted of being witches.

21:59

And in the book you also talk

22:01

about the ministers

22:03

in Windsor delivering some sermons

22:06

where they spoke about the devil

22:08

and the witches. How did that influence

22:11

the people's belief in

22:14

that community in witchcraft?

22:18

They started around, I think 1639,

22:20

1640, talking about

22:22

this, and this is about the time that Alice and

22:24

her husband John moved and

22:26

her daughter moved to Windsor.

22:30

At least that's my approach. Other

22:32

people have different approaches, but that's the way I look at

22:34

it. I talk about something called cunning

22:36

men and cunning women and cunning

22:38

men are, it just means they know that

22:41

they're like white witches. They

22:43

basically, and I talk about, I go back

22:45

to England, so I go back and forth because it's important

22:47

to understand where these people were coming from. So

22:50

just to say this quickly, in England it

22:52

was considered quite normal.

22:55

If you say you lost an object,

22:57

you might go to your local cunning person

23:00

in the village or whatever in

23:02

community and ask if they knew

23:04

anything about it. And these people tended to know

23:06

a lot of things, because a lot of people came to them,

23:09

and they would do charms and things like that.

23:11

And one of the things that they did, which was very important,

23:14

was they would unwitch people.

23:17

So if somebody felt that they had been cursed

23:20

and I have evidence of some of this even

23:22

in New England of unwitching, how people

23:24

tried to unwitch themselves. So

23:26

that's what this person would do. I don't know

23:29

the that Alice was doing

23:31

unwitching, but maybe

23:33

she was a healer. That's the way I look

23:35

at it. She probably had

23:37

for some, I don't know where she got it from.

23:39

I personally think she may, as I said, I'm the

23:41

one who thinks she came from London, those others don't

23:43

agree with me. But I,

23:45

I think that she may have gotten a skillset

23:48

somewhere, and when

23:50

she came there, she would help them out, because

23:52

one of the things they did was they raised cattle.

23:55

That was the big thing from the people from the

23:57

the that part of of England. Plus

24:00

I found this out, her husband, this

24:02

is really weird. Her husband had

24:05

some kind of like a tuberculosis of the

24:07

skin and he constantly

24:09

lost his skin. And, when

24:11

I saw that, I said, "oh, she's gotta be doing

24:13

something to help him out." Anyway, so

24:16

she may have had a skillset that

24:18

was working fine. And then when people started dying,

24:21

obviously sometimes people turn on those kinds of people

24:23

and go, wait a, now people are dying.

24:26

She must be, as I say this a fellow that

24:28

had a wife and he was in Newbury,

24:31

I think in Newbury, Massachusetts. And

24:33

he said, sometimes people questioned about whether my

24:35

wife was a good witch or a bad

24:37

witch, and I got it as a quote. So

24:40

it's possible that when people started dying,

24:42

people started looking at it with a jaundice eye

24:44

and said, and then of course there were issues going

24:46

on in the church too. That's the other thing.

24:49

There were a lot of issues that that

24:51

were causing problems in the church. We don't know exactly

24:53

what they were, but we know that people

24:56

were complaining about something. That,

24:58

that's the kind of thing that once it gets started,

25:00

it's hard to it's hard to stop. People

25:03

just gossip, and it just gets, the

25:05

ball starts rolling. There are no

25:07

records of the trials themselves, that

25:10

all we have is like depositions and things

25:12

like that, just like in Salem. She's

25:15

got that issue with trying to

25:17

find the witches marks. Or

25:19

the witches teats as they call 'em. And

25:22

if they can discover that, and this is what

25:24

they believe. The demonologists

25:26

believe that if you can discover

25:29

that on the person, then you know that

25:31

a compact was made with the devil and that they

25:33

are feeding familiars. The witches

25:35

teat was to feed familiars, and

25:38

so if you could, and that's what they were looking for.

25:40

And we know that they were looking for that in

25:42

Goody Knapp. Because what

25:44

happens with Goody Knapp is Goody Knapp

25:47

gets hanged, right? And

25:49

her body is thrown in a ditch, is what they did

25:51

with witches, right? When she was hanged,

25:54

and her body's thrown in a ditch, Mary

25:56

Staples gets involved and gets accused

25:59

of being a witch, but she

26:01

goes over there and starts looking for

26:03

the witch's teats. So we know that must have been

26:05

an important part of the trial. And

26:08

one of the other ladies says, "wait a minute. Be careful

26:10

there. Don't you know or they'll think you're a

26:12

witch, too, if you say that these," cuz she was

26:14

going, there's nothing on her that's any worse

26:17

than anyone, than me." and

26:19

that's when the other lady says, "wait a minute, you're gonna get

26:21

in trouble for this." And so

26:23

we know that was very important. We don't

26:25

hear about it that much, but obviously

26:27

it was important because that Mary

26:30

was looking for it to say if that was

26:32

the proof. And then I guess a woman

26:34

named O'Dell, she was a midwife.

26:37

Now the midwifes are different. Midwives

26:40

actually were very respected. She comes up to her and

26:42

says, comes up to Mary Staples and said, "she's

26:44

got 'em, she's got 'em. And just

26:47

shut up, basically, oh, you're gonna get you something to

26:49

a lot of trouble." So anyway, that's what happened.

26:52

Wow, that's a great story. Historical

26:55

story.

26:57

Lot of interesting things going on, gotta

26:59

read these cases as much as really close,

27:01

some of them, and this is just some of 'em. I try to

27:03

look at the cases, all the cases,

27:06

as many cases as I could. These are all cases,

27:08

many of 'em related to people that actually executed.

27:10

But I also got involved in a few cases

27:13

where people weren't necessarily executed, but

27:15

they were freed, so to speak. I

27:17

think you hear about John Winthrop and

27:20

how he was like an alchemist. And

27:22

how he helped to get some

27:24

of these witchcraft cases where

27:26

it looked like they were gonna be convicted. He

27:29

got them off, but as long as they behaved

27:31

themselves. This is a case

27:33

she didn't hang, she was from New York.

27:36

And the town, the area

27:38

she was from wanted to be connected with Connecticut.

27:40

So cuz they wanted to get a real trial, and they brought

27:42

her up there, and she was

27:44

tried and it looked pretty bad for

27:47

her, and then John Winthrop, Jr.

27:49

was able to say, let's let her go and she behaves

27:52

that'll be fine. If she doesn't behave, we'll bring her back,

27:54

and then we'll convict her." And

27:57

you know that, what's interesting about that is this

27:59

case of guilty and

28:01

not guilty, whereas he was

28:03

looking for a middle way, because

28:05

she wasn't not guilty, but

28:07

she wasn't guilty, either, as far as he was concerned.

28:10

I'm writing a book on body snatching. And

28:13

the reason I bring it up is because there's, the

28:15

Scots, legally they actually have a middle

28:17

ground where you're not actually guilty

28:21

and you're not not guilty, but you're

28:23

in the middle, basically. And I think

28:25

that's where he might have got it from, so anyway, but

28:28

he did that in a number of cases.

28:30

I think one of the problems he had was he

28:32

did that in that case I was just

28:34

telling you about. And I think the people

28:37

in Hartford during their

28:39

time period when they had the Hartford Witch Hunt, got

28:41

really upset that this

28:43

woman didn't get executed. And so

28:46

that when he left, that

28:48

was now their opportunity to go

28:50

after the real witches that they wanted to get.

28:53

That's really good information.

28:56

They, they were bitter, bitter. And

28:58

the other thing I just wanna tell you quickly about, which

29:00

I even talked about, but with the Hartford case

29:03

there was an awful lot of contention

29:05

and wrangling over the

29:07

church in Hartford, and that also

29:10

didn't help, either, with the witch panic.

29:12

Can you tell us a little more about that?

29:16

Basically, when Hooker

29:18

died, they brought

29:20

in a couple of ministers that

29:22

they tried them out. They didn't like 'em. Stone

29:26

didn't like them at all, particularly the

29:28

first one. And he wanted to

29:30

be the chief minister, basically, best I can

29:32

tell. And then he started to act

29:34

a what we would call a Presbyterian

29:37

where you're in charge of the church, whereas

29:39

Congregationalists didn't believe in that. They believed

29:42

that the elders were in charge of the church

29:44

and that the minister was supposed to do

29:46

their bidding pretty much. And

29:49

so there was great conflict between the

29:51

two of them over almost a ten year period.

29:53

It was unbelievable. People talked about it all

29:55

over New England, and actually Wethersfield

29:58

had its problems, too, but in

30:00

1659, the

30:02

elders were finally able to withdraw

30:05

and go up to Hadley, Massachusetts.

30:07

And they set up their own church

30:09

up there. But what happened was, of course,

30:11

it left, all the quality people,

30:14

if you will, left town and

30:16

caused all kinds of problems land

30:18

disputes, and cetera, et cetera, in

30:21

Hartford itself. Hartford was also suffering

30:23

all kinds of weather problems, flooding.

30:26

And then our friend John Winthrop, Jr.

30:28

decides he's gonna leave and go over and get a charter,

30:31

which freaked people out. And then

30:33

when Charles II came to the throne, that freaked

30:35

people out. And finally,

30:38

the Congregationalists felt they were losing out to

30:40

Presbyterians and Charles was getting

30:42

ready to allow Catholics, for God's sake, to come

30:44

into New England. That was another thing, Quakers.

30:46

So there was all kinds of problems

30:48

going on in in Hartford, and

30:51

in some sense, New England at that time.

30:53

But Hartford was the place where we had the

30:55

the actual witch trials themselves

30:58

that came about as a result of all these issues.

31:01

So there's a lot of detail on that, too, that

31:04

I go into. And there was conflict in the

31:06

church, too. The other thing that happened was the

31:09

thing that most people don't talk about, which I like

31:11

to talk about, is the fact that one of the young

31:13

women, Ann Cole, was possessed. She

31:17

started naming witches and things like

31:19

that, but she was also supposedly

31:21

possessed by a demon. And the

31:23

ministers of course got together, the four

31:25

ministers from the different towns

31:27

Wethersfield, Farmington, and

31:30

then I think two from Hartford, including

31:33

Stone. And they decided they were going to interview

31:35

her, and they weren't casting demons

31:37

out, but they were certainly looking for information from

31:40

her, and she gave out the information

31:42

they wanted. And one

31:44

of the other things that had to do with this is not everybody

31:46

left, not

31:48

everybody could afford to leave to go up

31:50

to Hadley. And so there was

31:52

a small group in the church that

31:55

were working against Stone. And

31:57

it just so happened that Anne Cole

32:00

was the daughter of one

32:02

of the members of this group.

32:04

You've answered many of our questions.

32:07

Towards the end of the book, you talk

32:10

about the case of Katherine Harrison

32:13

and what was the significance

32:15

of the final decision in that case?

32:18

Katherine is the one where he goes

32:20

to the ministers. Basically

32:22

that's important, because finally they

32:25

decide that you can't have

32:27

a an accusation that

32:29

you saw some kind of devilish activity,

32:32

unless you have actually two witnesses.

32:35

And if you can get two witnesses that saw the same

32:37

exact act, then you'd

32:39

have a case, at least you could bring it to court. Aside

32:42

from that, no. They couldn't get a conviction. From

32:45

that period on, you don't have,

32:48

the magistrates really don't wanna bring too

32:50

many witchcraft cases until we

32:52

finally get up to 1692. And

32:54

we do get the witchcraft cases,

32:56

but thankfully, no executions.

32:59

Where do you suggest your

33:02

community, people who are coming

33:04

to look for history, where can they experience

33:07

it or learn about it?

33:09

So basically once a year

33:12

we, I do a a tour called

33:14

the Connecticut Colony 17th Century

33:16

Witch Panic. And I put together

33:18

this pamphlet for them, Ancient Burying

33:20

Ground. And we usually do that in October. So

33:24

that's one where I talk about a lot of

33:26

what happened during the witch panic at

33:29

that time period. But what we also do is we identify

33:31

the graves of people who

33:34

were connected to the witch panic.

33:37

And of course, no witches are buried there, as

33:39

I have to tell people all the time, because they didn't do

33:41

that. But we do have Hooker

33:43

and Stone, and some of the more famous

33:45

names are there. And so I talk

33:47

about each of the individuals and how they're connected.

33:51

There's another organization at

33:53

the Stanley-Whitman House, which is in

33:55

Farmington, and it's called

33:57

the Mary Barnes Society. Their

34:00

organization is interested in Mary Barnes,

34:02

who was also hanged with the Greensmiths

34:05

in 1663, and

34:09

I guess they have a collection there. I've been there, but I

34:11

haven't been involved with them. But I do

34:13

know about them, and I've done talks for them. And

34:16

of course there are talks, available people

34:18

that are doing talks like myself. And

34:20

there's other, Beth does talks. And

34:22

recently I went to, although there wasn't really

34:24

a witch thing, but have you ever heard of The Witch of Blackbird

34:27

Pond in the book?

34:29

Yes.

34:31

Okay. So they did a ball there for

34:33

Halloween. It was quite good. And

34:35

so there's ways to get into it and

34:38

then of course, to read about it, to get

34:40

books that, if you're interested in it,

34:42

get some of these books and

34:44

read about the work that's been

34:46

done and find out if there's

34:49

something that you feel that you can, you

34:51

see something that maybe you'd like to explore further

34:54

and maybe do some research on your own. That's always

34:56

good. So there are ways

34:58

of connecting with people and then you connect with other

35:00

people and then Beth's got that Connecticut Witchcraft,

35:04

it's a Facebook and you can, see what's going on

35:06

and that it's a way of it's a way of connecting

35:08

with other people that might, that have the same

35:10

interests as you. I

35:13

will say that when I talk to people, so

35:15

many people just tell me that they're so

35:18

thankful that somebody actually is, I think I

35:20

said this earlier, is interested in

35:22

like their family or

35:24

it's nice to know that they're related in some

35:26

way to somebody else that's related to so

35:28

heck, a lot of people that seem to be related to these

35:30

witches, accused witches. I'm

35:33

shocked at how many people, but it's

35:35

good. My book is available

35:38

primarily through like Amazon and

35:40

Barnes Noble and stuff like that. And

35:42

I didn't set the price, unfortunately.

35:47

But it's got a lot of material in it, and

35:49

it's I think people live, if they're interested

35:51

in basically how it's

35:53

connected with what was going on in

35:55

England and then basically took

35:58

off on its own. You can learn

36:00

a lot from what I've written, I hope. Anyway,

36:03

that's what I did it for. I wanted

36:05

to give people context. One

36:07

of the things I noticed about a lot of books

36:09

on witchcraft, on witches and witch

36:11

trials is they deal with that specifically,

36:15

whereas what I wanted to do is to

36:17

look at it and put it into a totality,

36:20

a context, and then people

36:22

can understand some of these trials

36:24

better, I think is what was going on in the world

36:26

at that time. The real purpose

36:29

for the book really is to put 'em all into a larger

36:31

context, and particularly the,

36:33

obviously the Connecticut Witch Trials.

36:36

Thank you.

36:37

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate

36:39

it.

36:40

And now we go to author Beth Caruso,

36:42

who has an update on a possible location

36:45

of the Connecticut witch trials hangings in

36:47

Hartford.

36:49

Dr. Love was a

36:52

historian, and he was a

36:54

reverend as well. So

36:57

in 1914,

37:00

Dr. William DeLoss

37:02

Love published

37:04

a history called The Colonial

37:06

History of Hartford, which

37:08

focused on how the City of

37:10

Hartford developed. And

37:13

on page 2 86

37:15

of this book, he

37:17

talked about a possible

37:20

witch hanging site. Now

37:23

Dr. Katherine Hermes, our

37:26

historian friend, she

37:28

has said how impressed

37:31

she was with Dr.

37:33

Love's references.

37:36

He literally went

37:39

to Colonial Land

37:41

records, and he

37:43

followed them through time. In

37:46

one Colonial land

37:48

record, it said that

37:50

it was near the hanging

37:53

site, or it was the property of

37:55

what the old hanging site

37:57

was, or gallows. And

38:00

keep in mind, those gallows were used

38:02

not just for witch trial victims, but

38:05

the other first hanging victims were

38:09

mostly Native Americans,

38:11

they hanged for murder. And

38:14

also gay people, and

38:16

they are on the record as

38:18

being hanged for sodomy. So

38:22

this is a site that

38:24

does pertain to which trial

38:26

victims, but there are also

38:28

others who were targeted

38:31

for their skin

38:34

color, their culture, their

38:36

sexual preference, as well. So

38:39

we do need to keep that in mind when

38:41

we talk about these gallows. I'm

38:44

gonna read you the specific

38:46

site that he is talking

38:48

about, but before I do that, I do

38:51

wanna tell you that, we

38:53

don't absolutely know

38:55

for certain where the

38:58

hanging site was a, and I've

39:00

heard so much hearsay,

39:03

but I, there is no direct

39:05

evidence. One

39:07

spot that has come up as

39:09

hearsay is

39:12

near the Old State House.

39:15

Apparently at some point

39:17

in time when they were doing

39:19

construction in the area, they did

39:21

find some human remains

39:24

in the ground near the Old

39:26

State House. Does that mean

39:29

that people

39:32

were hanged there at some point? It's

39:35

really hard to know. And again,

39:37

I can't find direct references

39:40

to that, so I

39:42

don't even know if that's hearsay or

39:44

if that's real. I would need to

39:46

do more research on that. Another

39:49

possible hanging site was

39:52

down by the

39:54

meadows near the Connecticut

39:57

River. And I think where that might

39:59

come from is there's an old map from

40:01

the 1630s, and

40:03

after the Pequot war, near

40:06

that site, they would

40:10

this sounds terrible, but they would cut off

40:12

the heads of the natives

40:14

that they were conquering and put them

40:16

on pikes, and

40:18

they would put those on

40:21

this land next to the river

40:24

as a warning. And

40:26

this was not anything new

40:28

for the English. At that

40:30

time in London,

40:33

near the old London Bridge.

40:35

Criminals after they

40:37

were killed, they'd be decapitated

40:40

and their heads would be on pikes right

40:43

near the London Bridge as well.

40:45

So this was part of a

40:48

criminal thing that they did as

40:50

a warning to who

40:52

they considered to be other criminals.

40:55

So that might be where talk

40:58

of, a possible other hanging site

41:00

comes from because of that. Another

41:03

place, at

41:05

Trinity College, there's

41:08

a hill and up on that hill,

41:11

there were gallows there at one point

41:13

in time, but every historian

41:15

I have talked to has said that

41:17

those were gallows from the time of the

41:20

Revolutionary War, and

41:22

they did not believe that witch trials

41:24

were there. I would say

41:27

the absolute most solid

41:30

and strongest evidence

41:32

of where the hanging site

41:34

was or where the gallows were,

41:37

would have been a mile

41:40

from downtown

41:42

Hartford at the time, Main Street, about

41:44

a mile out up Albany

41:47

Avenue, which at that point was

41:49

a road that went out to cow

41:51

pasture, and there was supposedly

41:54

a hill there. And if we know

41:56

from Salem, it was from

41:59

the downtown proper, and

42:01

it was on a hill where they had a gallows.

42:04

So going by those

42:06

things, it seems like it would fit

42:09

a little better. But then

42:11

we have this reference

42:14

by Dr. Love, who

42:16

is very specific.

42:19

And so I'm gonna read you what

42:22

he wrote, and this all

42:24

comes from land records. This

42:27

is page 286 of

42:29

the Colonial History of Hartford.

42:32

And he

42:35

starts out at the beginning of the page

42:37

talking about Elizabeth Seager

42:39

and Mary Barnes

42:42

being indicted. But

42:44

then he goes down and he says,

42:48

it seems probable that

42:50

the witches were executed outside

42:53

of the town plot on

42:56

the road from the cow pasture

42:58

into the country. There

43:01

the gallows of early times

43:03

were located on March

43:06

10th, 1711

43:08

to 12, John

43:10

Read sold to John Olcott,

43:13

attractive about seven acres

43:15

bounded south on the highway

43:18

leading out of Hartford town towards

43:21

Simsbury, now Albany

43:23

Avenue. It is

43:25

described in the deed as

43:29

near the house lately,

43:32

built by Joseph Butler near

43:34

where the gallows used to stand.

43:38

The place is near enough identified

43:41

as on the north side of

43:43

the avenue on the east

43:45

end of the present Goodwin

43:47

lot there. A

43:49

large elm tree on

43:51

a rise of ground might well

43:53

memorialize the place where this

43:55

tragedy of Hartford's early

43:58

history was enacted." Then

44:01

he goes on to say the usual place

44:03

of punishment for minor offenses

44:06

was in the meeting house yard near

44:09

the church where the stocks, the Hillary

44:11

and the whipping post. So

44:14

anyway, this is fairly concrete,

44:16

I think, because he

44:18

is looking at very old

44:21

deeds from the early

44:23

1700s. The

44:25

last of these hangings would've taken

44:27

place in 1663

44:30

for the witch trial victims. But

44:33

again, keep in mind there were other

44:36

others who hang there as well. So

44:40

he wrote this in 1914.

44:43

I've known about this a long time.

44:45

Other people have known about it a long time.

44:49

And people who

44:52

know a bit about

44:54

how Hartford has changed

44:57

and where this might have been, have

44:59

pointed to Albany Avenue

45:02

about a mile from the

45:04

old meeting house. But I

45:06

don't think anybody knew specifically

45:08

where this was. And it never

45:11

dawned on me that this

45:14

is 1914. There

45:16

was photography back then.

45:18

I don't know, I hadn't thought

45:21

about it. Other people I've

45:23

talked to hadn't thought about it, until

45:26

last week when Jen Schloat,

45:28

your other guest, pointed

45:30

out to me. We were talking about old articles

45:33

and perceptions

45:35

of how the witch had changed to

45:38

be the old hag

45:40

to this young, powerful women,

45:42

coinciding with women

45:45

gaining independence and

45:47

freedom during that time. And

45:49

so we were going

45:51

back and forth, and she found

45:54

this article from 1930,

45:57

I believe it was May 11th,

45:59

1930, that talked

46:01

about this old elm tree

46:04

and the possible sight of

46:07

the gallows. And

46:10

in that article was

46:12

this picture of this huge

46:15

and beautiful old elm

46:17

tree, and it was up upon

46:19

a hill, and

46:22

I thought, oh my gosh, where

46:24

is this? Where is this? We should

46:26

be able to identify

46:29

this. There was one

46:32

building in that photograph

46:34

that looked like it was older than the other

46:37

buildings there, and

46:40

it was On

46:42

Irving and Albany Avenue,

46:45

and with some research I

46:48

figured out that was the

46:50

old Goodwin lot or

46:52

the old Goodwin Tavern,

46:54

an inn that this

46:58

guy, Dr. Love, or Reverend

47:00

Love was referring to, it

47:03

was his lot. Apparently his lot

47:05

went all the way from

47:08

a church at Vine Street

47:10

all the way down to

47:12

Albany and Garden Streets. So

47:16

Garden, between Garden

47:18

and Irving would be the

47:20

most eastward part

47:23

of that lot that he talks about

47:26

and the side of the street

47:28

is the north side of the street. And

47:30

indeed that's where it was.

47:33

Just having that information that

47:35

indeed was the

47:38

Goodwin mansion that was referred

47:40

to the Goodwin lot or the Goodwin

47:43

Inn and Tavern,

47:46

then it was possible to

47:49

locate other pictures. And

47:52

in locating other pictures,

47:54

there were some buildings right behind the tree

47:57

that were built in

48:00

1927, and

48:04

a couple of the buildings in those

48:06

pictures still stand there today.

48:09

So because of that, it

48:12

was possible to identify

48:15

the specific place where that

48:17

big old elm tree would've been.

48:20

And it was so amazing

48:22

to me to finally

48:25

figure this out and

48:27

have it be so specific, because

48:31

people were talking about

48:33

this all the time in the 1930s,

48:37

and why did it just

48:39

disappear? Why did

48:41

people not know this

48:43

anymore? If you go through newspapers.com,

48:46

there are several articles about

48:49

the Goodwin Inn, there's more

48:51

than one article about this

48:54

gargantuan elm tree. They

48:57

decided to take it down in

48:59

the 1930s.

49:01

I thought maybe it was because of Dutch

49:03

Elm disease, but that's not why they

49:05

took it down. They took it down because

49:08

they said the roots, were spreading

49:10

toward Albany Avenue. There wasn't

49:13

enough ground for them. And

49:15

the owners, they wanted to chop

49:17

it down for "progress," quote,

49:20

unquote, and

49:22

then they wanted to grade the lot,

49:24

which they did to make it

49:26

level with everything else around

49:28

it. So I think

49:31

part of why people just

49:33

forgot or stopped talking about

49:35

this was because the main

49:37

landmark, what was called the

49:39

witch elm, was gone.

49:43

And the other sad part about

49:45

this, if you look at the original

49:48

photos, this area was just absolutely

49:51

beautiful. But of course, that

49:53

elm was taken down. The other elms

49:55

nearby probably died

49:57

from the Dutch Elm Disease, which hit

49:59

right around that time. And

50:01

then the historic Goodwin

50:03

Inn. I don't know why anyone

50:06

would do this. It was such a

50:08

incredibly beautiful Greek revival

50:11

building with such history for

50:13

Hartford. They tore it

50:15

down in 1956

50:18

to make room for a parking lot. How

50:21

could you do that in the name of progress?

50:24

It makes no sense to me. But

50:26

that's what they did. And today

50:28

it's still a parking lot. So

50:31

when you go to that area on Albany

50:33

Avenue today, you're not

50:35

gonna see these gargantuan

50:38

trees. You are not

50:41

going to see this incredibly

50:43

old, historic building. It's

50:46

all gone, but we

50:48

know precisely where

50:50

that spot is now that

50:53

Dr. Love referred to now.

50:56

Again, I'm gonna quote him there.

50:58

"A large elm tree on a rise

51:00

of ground might well memorialize

51:03

the place where this tragedy of Hartford's

51:05

early history was enacted." We

51:08

don't know for absolute sure

51:11

that old elm tree was

51:14

indeed a hanging tree for

51:16

the gallows, but

51:18

we do know it was that area.

51:21

And I looked up other

51:23

old elm trees to see the size

51:26

of the trunk. Elm trees,

51:29

even very old ones, the

51:31

girth was not huge like

51:33

a old chestnut tree. The

51:35

girth was with the oldest

51:38

trees, maybe six to ten

51:40

feet. And if you look at

51:42

that old tree in the

51:44

photograph, that does

51:46

match that. It's

51:48

possible that it was the tree, because

51:51

everything else was pretty much chopped

51:53

down. I did find a picture of the

51:56

Goodwin Inn in 1925,

51:59

and this is before the neighborhood

52:01

behind it was built up. It

52:03

just looks like fields,

52:06

and it's pretty

52:08

much farm fields everywhere

52:10

with a few of these

52:12

elm trees. But

52:15

the giant elm was

52:17

one of three trees

52:20

that was talked about in

52:22

a special tree book. It's

52:24

was called Trees of Note in

52:27

Connecticut by Catherine

52:29

Matthews. It was published in 1934.

52:32

There were only three trees that

52:34

she listed in Hartford

52:37

that were well known. One,

52:39

of course, was the Charter

52:41

Oak. By then, the Charter Oak was gone,

52:44

but they very carefully

52:46

saved some saplings

52:49

from the Charter Oak and strategically

52:51

planted them in different places, which are

52:53

still alive today. There

52:55

was a third one but

52:58

the second one was this witch elm.

53:01

And in the photograph for

53:03

that book, the elm is,

53:05

it's, it just looks monstrous.

53:08

You can also go to ctdigitalarchive.org

53:14

and see yet another

53:16

picture of that massive elm

53:18

tree. And it's facing north,

53:21

but it's also facing more towards

53:23

Garden Street, so you can get another

53:25

perspective. But in

53:28

any case, I think this is really

53:31

important to know.

53:34

It's not the ideal place

53:36

for a memorial right now.

53:38

Right now it's the property of

53:41

a liquor store in

53:44

the north end of Hartford, basically.

53:47

The neighborhood over time

53:50

has gotten very run down. I know

53:52

there are projects there

53:54

to bring the neighborhood

53:56

up again, but

53:58

what you see now is completely different

54:01

than what in those photographs. And

54:03

again, with these landmarks,

54:06

the Goodwin Inn and the

54:08

huge elm tree, I think this is

54:10

why this came

54:13

out of people's memory, and

54:17

why they just didn't talk about it

54:19

for a long time. So thank goodness

54:21

for newspapers.com.

54:24

Thank you, Beth.

54:26

Thank you, Beth. And

54:28

we'll have a link to a

54:31

photograph of the witch Elm

54:33

in the show description.

54:36

And now for a Minute with Mary featuring Mary

54:38

Bingham.

54:40

Mary Barnes I

54:42

have an update on the condition of Mary

54:45

Barnes, for which she was treated between

54:47

1657 and 1659.

54:50

I first spoke of this in the episode

54:53

titled "Andy Verzosa on

54:55

Museums, Mary Barnes and Farmington,

54:58

Connecticut." John Winthrop Jr.

55:00

As an Alchemist who studied

55:03

Paracelsus, believed that

55:05

medicines created conditions.

55:07

For which the body to heal itself.

55:10

After looking at this journal entry

55:12

more carefully, I discovered

55:15

that Mary was treated with at least

55:17

three medicines, salt, Peter

55:20

sage, and most likely sugar

55:22

today. Salt Peter is known as

55:24

potassium nitrate and can be used

55:27

to destroy, preserve

55:29

and heal. John Winter Jr.

55:32

Knew that it was a fertilizer food

55:34

preservative. And an ingredient

55:36

used to make gun powder. On

55:38

the other hand, John Winthrop Jr.

55:41

Could have used Salt Peter to create

55:43

the condition for the body to heal

55:45

skin lesions, itchiness,

55:47

and inflammation. I

55:49

don't know why John Winthrop Jr.

55:51

Would have used Sage as

55:53

of yet today. However,

55:56

SAGE is used for headaches, sore

55:58

throat, and inflammation. Sugar

56:00

would have been prescribed to

56:02

create the condition. For the body

56:05

to heal wounds. My

56:07

transcription of this journal entry

56:09

is far from complete. However,

56:12

this small bit of knowledge brings us

56:14

a little closer to knowing more about

56:16

Mary Barnes. Mary seemed

56:18

to have responded favorably to this

56:20

treatment before having a relapse.

56:23

Winthrop Jr. Was able to help

56:25

her both times to heal from a possible

56:28

uncomfortable skin condition. Stay

56:30

tuned. I will keep the audience updated

56:33

as my findings are clarified.

56:36

Thank you.

56:37

Thank you, Mary.

56:39

Thank you, Mary.

56:41

And now time for End Witch Hunts

56:43

News featuring Sarah Jack.

56:45

On Monday, we visited the Salem Witch Museum

56:47

and the Salem Witch Trials Memorial with Dr.

56:49

Leo Igwe, director of Advocacy

56:52

for Alleged Witches. He

56:54

communicated with us the striking parallels

56:56

between the historic accused witches and

56:58

the alleged witches being attacked around the globe

57:01

today. Parallels such as targeting

57:03

vulnerable members of society with blame

57:05

and punishment for natural misfortunes

57:07

that the accused could not possibly have caused.

57:10

Lives forever altered, alleged

57:12

witches maimed for life, having to

57:14

flee their homes, to find safety from the trauma.

57:17

Words of innocence quoted from the 17th

57:19

century witch trial records are chiseled in

57:21

stone at the Salem witch Memorial,

57:24

pleas of innocence quoted directly from

57:26

the Salem Witch Trial victims you may be familiar

57:28

with. The parallel is that

57:31

modern day alleged witches are the exact

57:33

counterpart. They're pleading and holding

57:35

out their own arm, asking for their innocence

57:37

to be recognized, pleading, pleading,

57:40

pleading until they are dead. Tuesday,

57:42

Mary Bingham, End Witch Hunts board member,

57:45

took us to Proctor's Ledge. At the Proctor's

57:47

Ledge Memorial, Dr. Igwe commented on

57:49

how the sufferings of the 1692 victims

57:52

ring a bell in his heart, because people

57:54

today are suffering under very similar conditions.

57:57

We also visited the locations where sisters

57:59

Mary Towne Esty and Rebecca Towne

58:02

Nurse were arrested and the place where they were

58:04

executed. These experiences

58:06

were deeply moving, as we felt

58:08

like we were touching tragic history. But

58:10

this tragedy is not gathering dust in

58:12

books. No, this tragedy

58:15

has its counterpart across the globe, where

58:17

men, women, and children are taken

58:19

from their home and accused of causing

58:21

harm with witchcraft. In Connecticut,

58:23

we are waiting for the Senate to vote on the resolution

58:25

to absolve those accused of witchcraft in the 17th

58:27

century. The United States is looked

58:29

to for models of justice and dignity. Taking

58:32

action here to absolve witch trial victims resonates

58:34

in countries with people affected by witch hunts

58:36

today and among immigrant communities

58:39

in the United States and other Western nations.

58:41

People in every continent are likely

58:43

to be affected by modern witch hunts, because

58:45

it's a smaller and smaller world due to instant

58:48

connectivity and various cultures converging.

58:50

Immigration is bringing beliefs from one part

58:52

of the world to the rest of the world, therefore

58:54

the whole world needs leadership standing up for

58:56

all vulnerable people targeted as witches.

58:59

Communities everywhere can be effected by the

59:01

dangerous and violent scapegoating of misfortune.

59:04

And so communities everywhere need to take a stand.

59:07

Get involved. Visit endwitchhunts.org.

59:09

To support us, purchase books from our bookshop,

59:12

merch from our Zazzle shop, or make a financial

59:14

contribution to our organization. Our

59:16

links are in the show description.

59:18

Thank you, Sarah.

59:19

You're welcome.

59:21

Thank you for listening to Thou Shalt Not Suffer:

59:23

The Witch Trial Podcast.

59:25

Please join us next week.

59:28

Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

59:31

Visit thoushaltnotsuffer.com.

59:34

Remember to tell your friends and family

59:37

and neighborhood goat

59:39

about Thou Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial

59:41

Podcast.

59:43

Support our efforts to End Witch Hunts. Visit

59:46

endwitchhunts.org to learn more.

59:48

Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.