0:20

Welcome to an eye-opening, profound,

0:23

life-changing episode of Thou

0:25

Shalt Not Suffer: The Witch Trial

0:27

Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.

0:30

And I'm Sarah Jack.

0:32

Today we speak with Leo Igwe,

0:35

an activist in Nigeria,

0:37

about modern day witchcraft persecution

0:40

in West Africa. Content

0:42

warning. We're talking about

0:45

real-life events. The

0:47

things that human beings do to each

0:49

other. We caution you

0:52

to listen at your own discretion.

0:56

All of it's discussed very tastefully.

0:58

It's just horrific.

1:01

We're just discussing

1:03

what are the facts on

1:05

the ground.

1:07

After you listen to Leo's stories,

1:10

you'll understand what's happening there.

1:13

It's a nasty situation, but

1:15

Leo's here to

1:17

help change things.

1:19

We asked him questions that we thought you

1:21

would want answered.

1:23

Leo gives us a good background

1:25

on what the situation is,

1:28

what events are happening, how

1:30

they're happening, who's involved,

1:33

who needs to step up to the

1:35

plate and take action.

1:38

You will hear the urgency

1:41

and come to understand the urgency.

1:44

If you're wondering if this episode is

1:47

for you, it is.

1:51

There's so much we could say about

1:53

this, but let's hear

1:55

it from the man himself, Leo

1:57

Igwe. Thank you so much for

2:00

joining us. It's an honor.

2:01

Thank you for giving me this platform.

2:04

It's not common. A lot of people,

2:07

we've been longing to be given platforms

2:09

so that we can bring in our

2:11

own side of the story.

2:13

We wanna start with some questions

2:15

about the background of

2:18

what is actually happening in West

2:20

Africa with these witchcraft

2:23

accusations. Is

2:25

the fear that's driving the allegations

2:27

coming from the traditional

2:30

religion or the colonized

2:32

religions, or is it a mix of both?

2:35

Well, witchcraft

2:37

accusation predates colonialism.

2:41

It predates contact with

2:43

the West or contact with

2:46

non-African cultures and religions.

2:49

What happens is that, of

2:52

course, I learned from my father, who learned

2:54

from the grandfather, who

2:56

were traditional religionists, that

2:59

people try to make sense of life,

3:02

using whatever they can materially,

3:04

material, spiritual, natural,

3:07

supernatural, ritualistic,

3:10

whatever they can do to

3:12

really provide a solution

3:15

to their problems, they did, and

3:17

they were doing this before they got

3:19

in contact with other cultures

3:21

and other religions, but

3:24

of course other religions

3:27

somehow reinforced

3:29

aspects of many preexisting

3:32

practices and conceptions. For

3:35

instance, Christianity

3:37

came as a better religion.

3:39

They told Africans, "your traditional religion

3:42

is primitive. Now take

3:44

a better look at the better religion."

3:46

That's Christianity. And

3:48

of course, it's not only because they made a case for better

3:50

religion. They use

3:52

violence in terms of colonialism, forceful

3:55

acquisition of these cultures. They

3:57

use their school, they use health institutions

4:00

to still send a message that Christianity

4:02

was better. But of course,

4:04

many people, in the course of embracing

4:07

this religion, discovered within

4:09

Christianity, witchcraft narratives,

4:12

supernatural narratives, faith-healing

4:14

narratives, which now reinforced

4:17

preexisting notions and practices.

4:20

So this is how what you can

4:22

call the colonial religions intersected

4:26

with preexisting notions. And the

4:28

same thing with Islam. Islam

4:30

also came as a better religion. And

4:32

of course, they made Africans to understand

4:35

that what they were worshiping, were actually spirits,

4:37

not God, were deities,

4:40

the divinities. So they made

4:42

them to embrace what they think is a real God.

4:45

And of course, in embracing this, it

4:47

also came with your own supernatural narratives,

4:50

including narratives of healing, narratives

4:52

of making sense of misfortune. And

4:54

it is within this universe of

4:57

supernatural solutions and

4:59

narratives that witchcraft notions

5:01

exist. And this is how what

5:04

we are seeing today is an intersection,

5:06

is a fusion, is a kind

5:09

of practices going on, in spite

5:11

of, or in addition to, or

5:13

in connection with what you can call

5:16

the colonial religions.

5:19

What laws are on the books

5:21

in Nigeria and other African nations,

5:23

and how long have they

5:26

been there? Are they a response

5:29

to what you just shared about?

5:31

Yeah, we have of course,

5:33

we have regulations

5:36

even before, you know, we got

5:38

the state formations with laws and

5:40

constitutions as embedded in

5:42

Western form of state or

5:44

political system. And

5:46

of course, let me go to the traditional laws.

5:49

Traditional laws, of course, they have their regulations

5:51

as what do you do if

5:54

you are convicted? Theft,

5:57

acquisition, forceful acquisition of other

5:59

people's property, or what

6:01

do they call, you know, or killing

6:03

or murder, and other offenses

6:06

within the community. But, of course,

6:09

in trying to decide who is guilty

6:11

or who is innocent, sometimes they

6:13

involve the traditional priests

6:16

or traditional diviners

6:19

who, you know, especially when such

6:21

incidents is assumed

6:24

to involve some supernatural.

6:27

Now, when the

6:29

colonialists came with their own laws and state

6:32

formation systems, they introduced

6:35

another way of rules of money or how

6:38

to make sense of offenses. And

6:40

of course, it was the,

6:44

you can call them the post-enlightenment Europeans

6:47

that came here. So they had gone through

6:50

this issue of witch-hunting, and they had

6:52

al, they already done with it, and within their law books,

6:55

they, they criminalized witchcraft accusation.

6:58

And they now introduced the similar laws

7:00

here to checkmate, to

7:02

regulate, to restrain accusations

7:05

and attendant abuses. Now

7:08

these laws, so in Nigeria

7:10

for instance, we have provisions in

7:12

the criminal code against witchcraft

7:15

accusations. But

7:17

of course, like every other thing, or

7:19

many of the things introduced during the colonial

7:21

era, they were in the statutes book.

7:24

They were on paper, not in practice,

7:26

because these laws originated

7:29

from cultures, non-African

7:32

cultures, that had their time

7:34

evolution in terms of its own making,

7:36

but only superimposed on a culture

7:39

that has not gone through similar processes,

7:42

in terms of the witch-hunting, the Renaissance,

7:44

the reformation of law. Law did not

7:46

come here as a result of reformation by the people.

7:49

Laws were introduced as imposition

7:51

by those who feel that their own

7:53

idea of state formation is superior

7:56

to traditional formations. So

7:58

what we have now in after independence,

8:01

when Africans took over this, first

8:03

of all, they need to satisfy, of

8:06

course, the former colonialists

8:08

that, "oh yeah, we are continuing the state formation."

8:10

So we are going to, they now just

8:13

put in play those laws. They just cut and paste

8:15

all these laws, and they now had independence,

8:18

but they were still on paper. Even myself

8:21

growing up, I never knew that witchcraft accusation

8:23

was a crime. It was only when I started

8:25

fighting these allegations and

8:27

I was looking for mechanisms to help

8:30

me do that, that I just looked at the law. I said,

8:32

Leo, look

8:34

at it there, is even clear in

8:37

our statutes book." Why? Because

8:40

one thing goes on in the law or

8:42

in the on paper of the law, but

8:44

another thing goes on in practice. So

8:46

because culture, religion, or,

8:49

are very often are involved

8:51

in, when it comes to cases like this. So

8:54

we have the laws, but the question

8:56

is that these laws are not being enforced.

8:58

These laws are not being enforced because, first

9:01

of all, of the fact that these laws

9:03

sometimes conflict with local,

9:05

traditional beliefs and

9:07

then state, the state is weak.

9:09

So that who, who enforces the

9:11

law is, is a matter of who is offended.

9:14

If you are rich and powerful, of course

9:16

you can enforce the law, but if

9:18

you, if you are poor, and,

9:20

uh, and, uh, you cannot, you don't have

9:22

the wherewithal, you cannot even, you

9:24

know, enforce the law even when the

9:27

law is on your side. So

9:29

what we have is a situation whereby people

9:32

affected are always elderly women,

9:35

children, people with disabilities,

9:38

and people who are not in the position

9:40

or with the power and the resources to

9:42

enforce the law in a situation

9:44

where the, the state is very weak, and

9:47

the state is ineffective, and state

9:49

presence is just limited, and

9:51

state instrument is just a matter of

9:54

who can afford to use this instrument

9:56

to protect himself or herself. So

9:59

this is why, you know, we have

10:01

this kind of situation going on

10:03

today.

10:04

Thank you for that. That really clarified

10:06

a lot. How common are

10:09

witchcraft accusations?

10:12

Well, witchcraft accusation is,

10:15

I will say we have to take it in layers.

10:18

Witchcraft suspicion is pervasive, perverse

10:21

in the sense that when things happen

10:24

to people, using

10:26

witchcraft is one of the ways they try to make

10:28

sense of it. There was an accident,

10:30

some people could say, "hmm,

10:34

but is really an accident, you

10:37

know, couldn't there be something behind this?"

10:40

A kind of why me or why this person

10:42

at this time? So what

10:44

happens is that witchcraft

10:46

narrative is just now one of those ways

10:48

people try to make sense of it, but

10:51

sometimes they suppress

10:53

their suspicion, especially

10:56

when they're afraid that the other

10:58

party could take them to court,

11:00

because the law is on the side of the accused.

11:03

So when they're afraid that they could

11:05

be taken to court by the other party

11:08

or the other party's educated, empowered,

11:10

exposed, understand his

11:13

or her right enough, they will suppress

11:15

the allegation, and they may resort

11:18

to other subtle and covert

11:20

means to get back at

11:22

the person that's suspected. Now.

11:25

So what happens there is, is that it is

11:27

very common, but because

11:30

of the fear that the accused

11:32

or the person being suspected might

11:35

actually take the other person to court and

11:37

get the person convicted, is

11:39

only those whom they think they could

11:42

overpower, they could overwhelm,

11:44

the poor, the aged, the

11:46

elderly ones, women. These

11:49

are usually the people who are now

11:51

at the extreme end, who

11:53

are the receiving end of the punishment.

11:55

So, witchcraft accusation is pervasive.

11:58

Why? Also because religion,

12:01

Christianity, Islam. All

12:03

these religions, they accommodate

12:05

witchcraft, suspicion. They may

12:08

say they are not, but they reinforce

12:10

it, either because they also endorse

12:13

supernatural interpretation of the

12:15

problems and supernatural solution

12:18

of the problems. So as long as we

12:20

have this, it is difficult to

12:22

separate witchcraft, allegations and

12:25

suspicion from people's religion. So

12:27

religion is pervasive. Africa is

12:29

almost the religious capital

12:31

of the world, in terms of Islam,

12:34

in terms of Christianity. So

12:36

within this religious capitalality

12:40

locks witchcraft suspicion, witchcraft

12:42

beliefs. So it is very common,

12:44

but what happens is that it is

12:46

difficult to enforce, it's difficult

12:49

to take on whom you are suspecting, because

12:52

of fear that the person could go to court

12:54

and get this person suspecting, the

12:56

person accusing to go to prison

12:59

or to suffer some penalty.

13:01

So I'm really hearing you talk

13:04

about the powerful versus those

13:06

without power. Is

13:09

that geographical at all? Do you

13:11

find accusations happening

13:14

in rural, more rural or

13:16

both rural and urban? Does

13:18

the power part play into that?

13:21

Yeah. You see urban

13:24

areas are often where

13:26

the elite, the educated, those

13:29

who work with the government, the politicians

13:32

where they live. So,

13:35

and urban areas are

13:37

areas where sometimes

13:39

people live in a way that they

13:42

don't actually know their neighbors. They are, they're

13:44

not connected with their neighbors, so they don't know what

13:46

is going on in the other apartment

13:48

or in the other person's life. Okay.

13:51

So, but in the rural areas,

13:54

people will live in a way that they know each other,

13:56

they understand each other. Sometimes

13:58

they share apartments, land,

14:01

they have a lot of things in common, unlike

14:04

in rural areas where very

14:06

often you only deal with the state

14:08

or you deal with your landlords or

14:10

the person directly. So,

14:13

um, the accusations

14:15

are more in rural areas or

14:18

people who are living in slums,

14:20

and slums, these are areas in

14:22

the cities where people are not actually

14:25

living a way that, you know, they

14:27

actually live within apartments. They live in

14:29

open spaces. They make use of

14:31

open, uh, either pumps or

14:34

common, they share things in common, so,

14:36

so we see that more often

14:38

happening in rural areas. Now,

14:41

another reason why it happens in rural areas

14:43

is that there's limited presence of the state.

14:46

Oftentimes, we have a police stations with about

14:49

three or five police officers in a

14:51

community of a hundred to 300

14:53

people, and sometimes the police

14:55

stations are kilometers away

14:57

from some of the communities. So

15:00

those communities are managed

15:03

by traditional rulers, who use customs,

15:05

more of customs than the laws,

15:08

and who use local enforcement mechanisms

15:11

than the police. Is only

15:13

when a rich member of the society

15:15

who is affected, the person could not

15:18

bring in the police to overwhelm the

15:20

local traditional system. So

15:23

it is more of, again, where

15:26

the weak, the poor, the socially

15:28

vulnerable, where they live. This

15:30

is where you have it more, because

15:33

in the rural areas where you have the politicians

15:36

and who have the rich and the elite who

15:38

live in their, you know, very skyscrapers

15:41

or live in posh houses, luxurious homes

15:44

with, uh, a lot of security people

15:46

around them and all that. We don't

15:48

get a lot of these accusations, but

15:50

we get it more in rural, squalid

15:54

neighborhoods, you know, where people are,

15:56

poor people live and where they

15:59

cannot sometimes afford to go to hospital

16:02

or access medical care, and

16:04

they only go to prophets, prophetesses.

16:07

They go to mallams, or they

16:09

go to clerics when they're sick or

16:11

when they need their job, and all that.

16:13

And many of them are not well educated, so

16:15

they are vulnerable, they live in a lot of

16:17

uncertainty, and they are not

16:19

well skilled, and they don't have well skilled

16:21

jobs. So these are usually

16:24

where you have more of them, and a

16:26

lot of people who are well skilled either they live in

16:28

the city or they migrate to Europe or America

16:31

for better jobs. So the, the circle

16:34

of people who are really vulnerable

16:36

and who are prone to suffering accusations

16:39

continue to widen, as the elite

16:42

continue to move to the urban areas or migrate

16:44

to Europe and America and

16:46

others. So leaving Africa now with,

16:49

you know, a growing army of

16:51

vulnerable people, people who are likely

16:53

to be accused, attacked, or killed

16:56

in the name of witchcraft.

16:59

These accusations, when they're made,

17:01

are they taken to

17:03

the traditional leader in the community,

17:06

or are they handled independently?

17:09

No, they're usually taken

17:11

to the traditional ruler. But

17:14

what happens is that if

17:16

the family, first of all,

17:19

if they suspect, if they make their suspicion,

17:21

sometimes they secretly go

17:24

to some of the traditional

17:27

healers or priests or

17:29

Christian pastors or prophets, you

17:32

know, prayer houses, spiritual home, because

17:34

there are all sorts of places

17:36

they go these days. Sometimes

17:38

it's a mix of traditional and Christian,

17:40

traditional and Islam, just

17:42

a place you can find solution. And

17:44

we have always people who use

17:47

all sorts of religious Christian

17:49

just to make sure that they make sense

17:51

of people's problems. So they go

17:53

to these places. And when these places,

17:56

when the divine are there, the cleric there, the

17:58

so-called expert there, or you

18:00

can call the person the witch doctor, if

18:03

that is what you know, what is

18:05

best. When the person now

18:07

tells them that, okay, actually

18:09

this is a case of witchcraft, and somebody

18:12

in your family is responsible, the

18:14

person now comes back emboldened

18:17

with a lot of force and anger and

18:19

reports the matter now to the chief. And

18:21

that puts the chief sometimes in a very difficult

18:24

position, because the

18:26

chiefs always know that they must have gone

18:28

to certify who the witch is

18:30

before coming to them. So sometimes

18:33

the chief might recommend that they should go

18:36

to another for another reconfirmation.

18:40

Sometimes they might refuse, or

18:42

they want the chief to use the result of their

18:45

own consultation or confirmation.

18:47

So sometimes he puts the chief in a difficult

18:50

position, the chief might yield and

18:52

go with it, or he might prevail

18:55

on the accusing party to go to another

18:57

place. Or he might also

19:00

invite the police. It depends on

19:02

where the chief is living, how close

19:05

the next police station is, and

19:07

how effective, you know, bringing

19:09

in external party, in terms

19:11

of the police, into the matter. So

19:14

chiefs always find themselves in very

19:16

difficult position, and very

19:18

often they yield to

19:20

the mob, because if they don't do that,

19:23

they themselves could also be killed, or they could

19:25

be lynched, because they could be seen

19:27

as a party to the witchcraft.

19:30

And they could also, you know, put their, they

19:33

could put themselves in danger and

19:35

even their legitimacy, you

19:37

know, could be taken as having been compromised,

19:39

because they are seen as, their role

19:41

is to protect the community, not

19:44

just protecting them physically, but

19:46

also protecting them metaphysically. So

19:48

when somebody feels metaphysically assaulted

19:51

and the chief seems not to be taking

19:54

effective measures, the chief is

19:56

believed to have compromised their positions.

19:59

And the person that would be first consulting

20:02

with a spiritual leader and then going to

20:04

the chief, is that individual

20:07

usually a male or a leader

20:09

within a family or a person with

20:11

some social power within his

20:13

circle? Or could just like a teenage

20:15

daughter go and ask for

20:18

consultation on it?

20:20

Now, yes, a very good

20:22

question. Our society is patriarchal,

20:25

so male dominates,

20:28

male rule, male direct, male

20:30

control. We

20:32

have male control society, so

20:35

that is usually the male members,

20:38

especially the elderly ones or the ones

20:40

who claim to be in position of power are

20:42

usually the ones who will go to consult

20:46

and very often in

20:48

many parts of, of the region, the

20:50

person that also going to consult also

20:52

going to be a male person. There

20:54

are female diviners, but they're just

20:57

in the minority. And

20:59

of course, because they're in the minority, they

21:01

also are, they're afraid

21:03

of also making divinations

21:05

that could change the power equation

21:07

in terms of patriarchy, male domination.

21:10

So you will still see the female diviners,

21:14

you know, also making divinations,

21:17

you know, along that line, which is of course

21:19

indicting women and elderly women.

21:21

So it's usually the

21:24

male that will go out to

21:26

consult very often

21:28

male diviners or traditional priests

21:31

or prophets. Occasionally,

21:33

of course there are cases of prophetesses,

21:36

female diviners, or

21:38

or female traditional priests, but they

21:41

are usually in the minority, very, very

21:43

minority.

21:44

And why do they make the

21:46

witchcraft allegation? Is

21:49

there something specific that's happening

21:51

to trigger an accusation of witchcraft?

21:55

There are many triggers. Very often

21:57

these triggers are usually misfortunes.

22:01

For instance, we have a case

22:03

in October. A

22:05

young man in rural, in a rural area was

22:07

traveling on a motorbike. He had

22:10

no headlight. Yeah, there

22:12

was no light. And he was traveling in the night. So

22:15

he was involved in a crash, and

22:18

he died. And the family

22:20

now said, "oh no, this wasn't an ordinary

22:22

death." There's always this notion of

22:25

ordinary and extraordinary

22:27

death. When it's a young person,

22:29

when it's just somebody, new couple,

22:31

when is, when it happens in a way

22:33

that people think, "yeah, this is not

22:36

a case of ordinary death." They

22:38

will now go to diviners,

22:41

who will now tell them who

22:43

might be or who could be responsible

22:46

for, for that. So this

22:49

is, this is usually the pattern. Whenever

22:52

some misfortune happens and

22:55

some people think it's not

22:57

an ordinary misfortune, that

23:00

there must be something extraordinary, they

23:02

would go there. So that was what happened in that case.

23:04

They went to a diviner who now,

23:07

identified that there were children

23:10

initiated into the witchcraft world.

23:13

So they came and took some

23:15

of these children, and I think they must

23:17

have tortured them, but eventually

23:19

they started confessing and

23:21

started telling them other women

23:23

in the community who were involved

23:26

in witchcraft. And that was how they

23:28

went, mentioned the name of some

23:30

women. They brought them to the shrine,

23:32

tortured them, and eventually

23:35

they killed them in the process and

23:37

buried them in the forest. So

23:39

this is how some misfortune

23:42

considered to be extraordinary, not

23:45

normal, how it now

23:47

gets one into that slippery slope that

23:50

leads to accusation, killing,

23:52

murder, the suspected Witch.

23:57

And you mentioned that some of the consequences of

23:59

allegations are torture

24:02

and murder, people

24:05

naming other people. Are there other consequences

24:08

that we need to know about from

24:11

allegations?

24:14

Well, first of all is that

24:16

people are dispossessed. Sometimes

24:19

accusations happens to widows

24:22

who inherited a lot of property

24:24

from the late husband. Okay.

24:27

And sometimes

24:31

when, let's say

24:33

somebody in the family, a

24:35

relative, when he is sick, the

24:37

person will now assume that,

24:39

oh yeah, this woman also wants to kill

24:41

me or something. So they, they could

24:43

make allegations to

24:47

dispossess, but

24:49

dispossess the accused. They

24:51

could make allegations that

24:54

will lead to the banishment of the accused.

24:57

The accused, in, in the north of Ghana,

24:59

they have a whole place,

25:02

makeshift shelters, they call them witch

25:04

camps. And these

25:07

are places that people run to,

25:09

accused people run to. Either,

25:12

they actually tell them, "go." They

25:14

actually, you know, come and force

25:16

them to leave their community and go to these

25:18

places. And when they go, they're dispossessed

25:21

of their house, their land, and

25:23

their property. So the consequences

25:26

are not just only torture, trial

25:28

by ordeal, mob

25:31

violence, lynching. It

25:33

could also be dispossession of

25:35

their property. They could also be

25:37

banished and they now have to spend

25:39

the rest of their life, sometimes as,

25:42

uh, moving along the streets. There was a

25:44

case in Nigeria, where the

25:46

person was living on the streets, and

25:48

one day the woman decided to come back in

25:51

the night. They went and abducted

25:53

her and stoned her to death. So

25:56

a lot of people will be banished.

25:58

They don't have a place to go, and

26:01

sometimes many of them end up dying

26:03

on the streets, you know? So

26:05

there are so many consequences

26:07

apart from torture and murder

26:10

of the accused, all sorts of

26:12

abuses, you know, are visited on them.

26:14

Both the ones we can track and

26:16

the ones we cannot track.

26:19

We've also heard you speak about

26:22

prisons in certain nations

26:25

where they keep the accused for their

26:27

own safety. Can you tell

26:29

us about that?

26:31

Yes. What happens is

26:33

that you see, there's

26:36

always this attitude by

26:38

the police or state officials. They'll

26:40

say, okay, they call it protective

26:43

custody. So they come up with a name

26:45

to actually justify what

26:48

is clearly an abuse, because there's

26:50

nothing like protective custody, because

26:53

people who are making accusations are the ones against

26:55

the law. They're the ones who's supposed to be in custody. They're

26:57

only supposed to be in prison. But

26:59

what happens here is that we have

27:01

a situation where police

27:03

will say they keep some people

27:06

in custody, because if they

27:08

don't do that, they could be attacked

27:10

and killed. So we have that in Chad.

27:12

We have had cases of protective custody

27:15

in Chad, even in Nigeria

27:17

and a few other African countries

27:20

where the courts or

27:22

the police will decide to keep

27:25

these people in detention. We

27:27

also have it in Malawi, and they are

27:29

claiming that because if they

27:31

release them, they could be killed.

27:34

Because very often, the accusers,

27:37

especially when the bewitched

27:40

is late, in quotes, the alleged

27:43

"bewitched" person died

27:46

or is no more, they want to revenge,

27:49

the accusers want to revenge. So what

27:51

the police or the court will do is to put the person

27:54

in what they call protective custody,

27:56

waiting for maybe a time after the tension

27:59

had gone down. But the people

28:01

they put in custody, sometimes elderly

28:03

women, and our prison are

28:05

not the best of places, because

28:07

they don't care for these people. They starve them

28:10

till they die. Very often they give them

28:12

little or no food. So we have

28:14

cases like that where the

28:16

state officials will get

28:18

these people imprisoned

28:21

for their sake, just to protect

28:23

them and ensure that they don't

28:25

go back to the society, where they

28:27

could be killed. And this is quite

28:29

unfortunate, and this is part of the reason

28:32

why our advocacy campaign

28:34

exists and will continue to get the

28:36

state to understand that the people who's

28:39

supposed to be in custody are the accusers

28:41

that the people supposed to be in jail, that the people

28:43

who's supposed to be taken to prison and

28:46

that people who are the accused

28:48

are people who supposed to be freed.

28:50

Their rights should be protected, because

28:52

the law is on their side. So we

28:54

have that, we have such cases, you

28:57

know, in some countries in the region.

29:01

Just to like visualize this, how

29:04

many accused are we talking that

29:06

could be in a prison?

29:08

What happens is that like

29:12

a recent report made it clear we have

29:14

problem of statistics. In

29:16

a matter like this, I

29:18

don't want to underestimate so that it

29:21

might be reducing or minimizing

29:23

what is actually a greivous issue. And

29:25

I want to let you know that some

29:28

years ago I went to Malawi and

29:31

I didn't know that about

29:33

20, 30,

29:35

over that number of women, were kept in

29:37

prison for their sake, I didn't

29:39

know. So what happens is that many

29:41

of these things are going on in a lot of places

29:45

without information, unless we

29:47

try to really allow countries to

29:49

open up and let us know. But

29:51

what we know I can tell you today is

29:53

that we have a lot of accused people

29:56

in protective custodies across the

29:58

country. We have a challenge, because

30:00

very often this information

30:02

is not released to the public.

30:05

That is part of the challenge we are facing, because

30:08

we really need to have this information

30:11

and put them out there and begin

30:13

the process of getting the state officials

30:16

to do what they're supposed to do. Release

30:18

these people. It was a campaign, we were

30:20

at in Malawi that led to the release

30:23

of many of these women. I went to Malawi,

30:25

and I saw women in protective

30:27

custody, and I was shocked on

30:30

seeing that. And we did a campaign, but

30:32

we know that there are cases in Chad,

30:34

even in Congo and all that, but

30:37

the number of these women is difficult

30:39

to say. And that is part of the frustration.

30:42

That is part of what is really hampering

30:45

our advocacy campaign in many

30:47

countries. Limited statistics,

30:49

limited data on how

30:52

the victims are being treated and maltreated

30:54

across the region.

30:57

The accusations, do

31:00

they usually come from within

31:02

your own family or are they you

31:05

accusing a neighbor?

31:08

Accusations, like I said, because they take place

31:11

in rural communities where people

31:13

live as families,

31:16

kindreds and all that, it

31:18

usually comes from within

31:21

the family. Yes, it comes

31:23

from within the family. We have what they called extended

31:25

family. It could also come, like

31:28

yesterday it was reported

31:30

that somebody murdered

31:33

the uncle. Yes.

31:36

What happened? The son

31:39

of this person informed

31:41

him that the granduncle

31:43

initiated him into witchcraft,

31:46

because that's all this kind of

31:48

narrative here that somebody is initiated,

31:51

that the granduncle gave

31:53

this boy, allegedly gave this boy a piece

31:55

of meat, and they said that

31:57

with this, after eating this meat that he got

31:59

initiated and that part

32:02

of the instruction was that he should kill

32:04

his father. So the

32:06

father now did not

32:08

wait for the son to kill

32:11

him. He now went and confronted the

32:13

uncle who

32:16

is accused of initiating his son. And

32:19

in the process he attacked the man,

32:21

beat him down, beat him with a stick. He fell

32:23

down, he now dragged the body into

32:26

the hut or the house and

32:28

set the house ablaze. This

32:30

happened some days ago in Bauchi

32:32

State in northern Nigeria. So

32:34

it is too often a family

32:36

issue is too often

32:39

a way families sometimes

32:42

try to resolve cases of misfortune

32:45

or cases of some suspicion

32:48

of occult forces being

32:50

involved in their day-to-day life.

32:53

So yes, it happens more

32:55

within families. It happens more

32:58

among relatives.

33:01

I have a question about this.

33:04

So with like banishment

33:07

and then you have this inner

33:10

family accusing and

33:12

violence, is there still a

33:14

component where, if there's

33:16

been witchcraft in your family, it makes

33:18

things difficult for the rest of the family,

33:20

or is that not really happening because

33:23

these families are dividing over witchcraft?

33:27

Because I believe in some other

33:29

countries, once somebody has

33:31

been killed as a witch in

33:33

your family, then sometimes that whole family

33:36

is banished or they have to seek

33:39

refuge away from where they're known.

33:41

Is that happening?

33:45

Yeah, the theory is this, because

33:47

it happens within families,

33:50

so you have an accusing section, you

33:53

have the accused section, and

33:57

uh, just like, of course, some

33:59

anthropologists have noted, accusation

34:03

witchcraft is a flip side of

34:05

kinship. So what happens is

34:07

that the whole

34:10

sense of family solidarity flips,

34:13

you know? So very often you'll find the

34:15

accused alone, or

34:18

you find the accused being

34:20

supported by other family members but

34:23

from a distance. Yes.

34:26

So it divides the

34:28

family. So we have some

34:30

on the side of the accused. We

34:33

also have some who

34:36

might not really support

34:39

the alleged

34:41

witchcraft, but will be providing

34:43

support to the accused because the sup, the person

34:46

is their mother or their sister. They

34:49

will not want that person to come and live

34:51

with them, but they may want to

34:53

provide assistance for the person to

34:55

be sent elsewhere. So

34:58

it is really a very complex situation

35:00

and development, especially when people

35:02

are accused. Now,

35:06

when the accusation comes from,

35:08

for instance, outside the family,

35:11

outside the family here might be extended

35:13

family, the

35:15

person might be told, if

35:17

it is a man or a woman, might be told

35:19

to go with the family, because

35:23

the belief is that you can pass, you must have passed

35:25

it on. Yes, because

35:27

there is a belief that you can inherit it,

35:30

you can contract it. So

35:32

it depends on the nature of the allegation

35:36

and it depends on the family's response

35:38

to it. So if it is intrafamily,

35:42

it divides the family into two, those

35:44

for the accused, those against the accused.

35:47

And sometimes the

35:49

removal of the accused person reduces

35:53

the tension, especially

35:55

when it is not seen as something

35:58

that has entangled other family

36:00

members. But there are instances,

36:02

especially when there is open, clear

36:05

support for the accused and

36:09

the chief now is in support

36:11

of the accusers, the chief may

36:13

order both the accused and

36:15

the family members to leave the community

36:18

for the sake of peace. Yes.

36:21

So it doesn't follow a

36:23

very strict pattern. It

36:25

depends on how was

36:27

the reaction of the family members to the

36:29

allegation, the nature of the allegation,

36:32

or what is the reaction of non-family

36:34

members like the chief to

36:36

the allegation? There are cases when the

36:39

whole community rises

36:41

against the accused. So sometimes

36:43

they will tell the accused to leave with

36:46

the family members. So it

36:48

doesn't follow a particular pattern.

36:51

It can, there are a lot of variables

36:54

that will determine who lives and who

36:56

doesn't live when accusations

36:58

happen.

37:00

I appreciate what you're teaching

37:02

us, because it really even shows

37:05

me what kind of questions I

37:07

have and how those need to change. So

37:09

thank you.

37:10

This has been very informative

37:13

and eye-opening. Now we'd

37:15

like to know more about your organization.

37:18

What would you like to tell us about Advocacy

37:21

for Alleged Witches?

37:24

Well, Advocacy

37:26

for Alleged Witches is actually

37:29

a protest advocacy,

37:32

let me tell you, protest on so many

37:34

grounds. First

37:36

of all, I have been unsatisfied

37:40

with the work being done by

37:43

organization and NGOs very often

37:46

based, connected with Western

37:49

NGOs doing this work. Because

37:51

what they do is that they so much dictate

37:54

and policed the

37:56

way to advocate

37:58

against witch persecution. And

38:00

I found that unhelpful. I

38:02

found that ineffective. I found

38:05

that patronizing. I found

38:07

that counterproductive. So

38:09

they're just papering over the problem. And

38:13

what happens is that many of the NGOs

38:16

here cannot actually do what they

38:18

would've ordinarily want to do. They

38:20

first of all have to look out and say, "okay, what

38:22

do they want us to do? Okay, we

38:24

need to have a conference." They will have a conference. After

38:26

that, they go to sleep. So

38:28

there isn't a grounded, solid,

38:32

robust, home-based

38:35

organization that responds

38:37

to this problem as they want,

38:40

not as they are told to do. So

38:43

what we have here are NGOs who

38:45

are just fronting for Western NGOs

38:47

and doing it as they want. And

38:50

of course they send them the money, and

38:52

they do it. Now,

38:54

I wanted an advocacy campaign

38:56

that is rooted on our own feeling

38:59

and our own reality and as we see things.

39:02

So I didn't want to be police. I don't

39:04

want somebody to be dictating what

39:06

I do from London or from New

39:08

York and all that. Many of them are far

39:11

from the scene. Many of them are not on

39:13

ground, and they will be there telling

39:15

you sometimes not to intervene when you

39:17

supposed to intervene. They will tell

39:19

you not to issue press releases. Before you issue

39:21

press releases, they have to read it in

39:23

New York, and sometimes they're on vacation. Okay?

39:26

You cannot issue press, by the time you want to

39:28

issue a press release, the matter is over.

39:31

I found this frustrating. So

39:33

I said, look, this problem

39:35

is not happening in New York. It's not happening

39:37

in London. It's happening right here

39:40

in Nigeria, right here in Malawi.

39:42

We must be at the forefront

39:44

of this advocacy. We know

39:46

the problem, we know the actors,

39:49

we know what to tell them, and that

39:51

those who want to support us do it

39:53

this way should support us. As

39:55

I'm speaking to you, I have just

39:57

finished a meeting with local stakeholders.

40:00

Now, ordinarily, before you do this

40:03

kind of meeting, you write a proposal, and

40:05

sometimes they will tell you, oh, sorry, there's no

40:07

budget for your meeting this year. Then

40:09

you go and sleep till there is

40:11

a budget, and sometimes if there is never

40:13

a budget, you are not gonna do anything. So

40:16

I just ask myself. I said, "no, no,

40:18

no, no, no." Germans we

40:20

say, "das geht nicht." "No, no, no. That's

40:22

not possible. I will not do this." Okay.

40:24

So I will have to put in place a mechanism

40:27

like yesterday the news came

40:30

that there was an incident of witch

40:32

killing in Bauchi in northern

40:34

Nigeria. Right there and then

40:36

I called the police commissioner.

40:38

I called them, and I told them what

40:40

to do, and I told them, "we're gonna work.

40:42

By Monday, we're gonna put a

40:44

force together and protect

40:46

the child who allegedly confessed

40:49

and all that, put resources to support

40:52

the child." Now, for many NGOs

40:54

here, you need to send a proposal to

40:56

your secretariat, to your office in London

40:58

or New York and tell them, "okay, there is

41:00

a case in, uh, Bauchi, what do we do?"

41:03

They say, "but sorry, it's not in our budget this

41:05

year." So what you do, you

41:07

leave intervening in a situation

41:10

where you could have made a difference, because

41:12

it is not in the budget of an organization

41:15

far away that has nothing to

41:17

do with the problem going on on ground. So

41:20

I started this as a protest, because

41:22

as it's happening, I want to intervene. I

41:25

issue press releases in the night, sometimes

41:27

even when I'm in the bathroom. When I'm

41:29

in the toilet, I have to call people. I said,

41:32

"you can't do this." You get it.

41:34

And I, I don't need to get permission from anybody

41:36

to do it. So this is one reason why

41:39

we started the Advocacy for the Alleged

41:41

Witches. Again, the

41:43

narrative of witchcraft in the West

41:46

and the narrative of witchcraft in Africa is

41:48

different. Now, the

41:50

West has gone through the witch hunt, and

41:53

today we have the pagans who identify

41:55

as witches. Now, when we

41:57

say advocacy and we

41:59

campaign against witchcraft, pagans are

42:01

joining us in this debate, and I keep

42:03

telling them, look guys, we

42:05

are not talking to you. We are talking

42:08

to those who claim they could disappear

42:10

in the night and go and make people ill. Are

42:13

you among those people? They will say, "no."

42:15

I say, "look, fine. We are discussing

42:18

an African-specific narrative

42:21

and understanding of witchcraft,

42:23

that is a problematic, that is

42:25

being used to kill and mame."

42:28

We advocate for the right of people

42:30

to identify themselves as witches

42:32

or freedom of worship and religion,

42:35

however they want to make sense of it. But

42:37

too often, because of the

42:40

culture, because of the way things happen

42:42

in the West, they always try

42:45

to confuse issues. Here, we're not

42:47

confused. Today, I had a meeting, we

42:49

had a discussion on this. We know what

42:51

we are talking about, but when we try

42:53

to have it sometimes with people from Europe,

42:56

they try to bring in the Wiccan

42:58

kind of religion. Look, we

43:00

are not, we don't have issues with the Wiccans.

43:03

No, actually, I want them to

43:05

understand, they need to support us so that we

43:07

can go through this phase, just like

43:09

Europe did and we, and so that

43:11

people who openly identify as

43:14

witches or as with the Wiccan religion

43:16

can practice their religion freely, just

43:18

like Christians and Muslims and Hindus

43:21

and Baha'i but too often

43:23

those who have these kind

43:25

of, uh, Wiccan belief

43:27

and all that. They try to join

43:30

the debate we are doing here by absorbing and

43:32

misrepresenting it. So

43:34

that's why I'm saying this is a protest.

43:36

We are a protest advocacy, and

43:39

I hope that it can take hold and it can

43:41

take the continent through this process

43:43

so that after some time we can now come

43:45

into, uh, the same field, on

43:47

the same level with the Americans and

43:50

all that. And we've had have people here

43:52

identify themselves as witches or

43:54

do practice their Wiccan religion in

43:57

just like they do in the West. But we are

43:59

still in early modern Europe. Yeah,

44:01

that's where we are. And if, if,

44:04

uh, other parts of the world could envision

44:06

this, they would know where we are today,

44:09

and here in Nigeria, in the

44:11

region, there is no confusion regarding

44:13

what we are trying to achieve. There is no confusion

44:15

at all. But too often confusion

44:17

comes when those from Europe or

44:19

America try to bring in some kind

44:22

of their own experiences in a way

44:24

that now minimizes what

44:27

people are going through here, because

44:29

here, witchcraft problem comes

44:31

as a result of allegation, not

44:33

necessarily as a result of self-identification.

44:36

No, as a result of allegation. Somebody

44:39

has a problem. You wake up in the night, you

44:41

have a dream, you go and knock at somebody's

44:43

else and said, ah, I saw you in my dream.

44:45

You are responsible for my problem. The next

44:47

thing, the person is attacked, then the next, he is killed.

44:50

So witchcraft here comes as a result

44:52

of allegation, not as self-identification

44:55

or as a religion. So, and we

44:57

need the help of other people

44:59

who understand this as in early

45:01

modern Europe, and the problem that it

45:03

cause, in order for us to get

45:05

rid of this problem and then come

45:07

to the same level with Europe

45:10

and America in terms of freedom

45:12

of religion and belief, which includes

45:14

freedom for people to practice and

45:16

identify themselves as witches or

45:19

as those who belong

45:21

to the Wiccan religion.

45:24

That was very powerful. How

45:26

can people outside of Africa

45:28

help?

45:31

Yeah. Yeah. This is a very interesting

45:34

question and the thing is that there are so many

45:36

ways you can help, and I want to let you know that

45:38

what you are doing right here now is a

45:40

form of help. Yes. Because

45:42

I know that when people talk about help, of

45:44

course people talk about money, which I

45:46

want to tell you is very important, okay? But

45:49

we have also more important

45:51

things. Provide us the platform.

45:55

Yes. Provide us the

45:57

platform. Very often

46:00

people don't give us a platform because

46:02

they want to speak for us. Sometimes,

46:04

like now, when you read some of the texts

46:07

by European scholars, they'll be

46:09

conflating African religion,

46:11

African traditional religion and witchcraft. It's

46:14

not the case. Yes,

46:16

we understand what African religion

46:19

is. We understand it. Allow

46:21

us to speak regarding

46:24

these problems. Support us. Don't

46:26

do it for us. Do it with us. Like

46:29

now we are having a conversation. Yes,

46:31

you are giving me a platform to explain this.

46:34

Come behind us. The problem

46:36

is affecting us. It's affecting our family members,

46:38

affecting our parents, affecting our relatives,

46:41

affecting our fellow citizens. What

46:44

is going on? They want to speak for

46:46

us. That's a problem. Yes.

46:48

They want to tell us, you know, those days, you

46:51

know, Europe, and Europe and America, they will send

46:53

people to Africa, "ah. How are those people?

46:55

Who are they? Can you please tell us about Africans?"

46:58

That era has gone. Sarah,

47:00

that era has gone. Josh, that era

47:03

has gone .Tell your countrymen and

47:05

women that the era of sending

47:07

somebody to come and be speaking for us. I can

47:09

speak for myself. My English might not be

47:12

as good as yours, but I can communicate

47:14

and tell you how we feel. Stop speaking

47:16

for us. So that is a problem. Immediately,

47:19

we stop this. The problem

47:21

is half-solved. Work with us,

47:23

come behind us, so that

47:25

we begin to explain this thing from our

47:27

own perspective, not from

47:30

your perspective. What happens is that somebody,

47:33

an American perspective of African

47:35

witchcraft, I mean, see even the length

47:37

of that expression is enough to discourage

47:39

you. I'm here, I'm, I'm presenting

47:42

the perspective. Nobody is presenting

47:44

the perspective of Leo's perspective or

47:46

come on, you know, so what am I trying

47:48

to say? We need to begin

47:50

to allow Africans

47:52

to tell us about what is going on. Tell

47:55

us about what they're doing. Support

47:57

them to do that. Yes. Like

47:59

now we need resources. Yes.

48:02

When events happen, invite

48:04

us, because immediately

48:07

you continue to provide platform

48:09

for us. You are sending a message back

48:11

to the community. Yes. Immediately,

48:15

our voices, they get out there. People

48:17

are hearing it. Look, today we have social

48:19

media. When Europeans

48:21

came here, we didn't have social media. We didn't

48:23

have this kind of communication. So,

48:26

so it is not difficult to get

48:28

me to speak and let the world know what

48:30

is going on. Yes. So

48:32

we have to remove all these people who

48:34

are, who are in between. Who, who, who want to tell you guys,

48:36

okay, look at what Africans are doing. No, no,

48:39

no, no, no. They have done enough. They have never

48:41

done enough damage. They can go, we,

48:43

we want to retire them. At

48:45

the Advocacy for Alleged Witches, we want to retire some

48:47

of these Europeans and Americans who want

48:49

to tell you guys how we think. No, I

48:51

will tell you how I think, and I'll tell you how

48:53

I believe. So if you want to support us,

48:56

give us the platform, give us the

48:58

resources. And sometimes we

49:01

may tell you, you know, inviting

49:03

us overseas. Look at the challenge we have. Sometimes

49:06

they, they will spend a lot of money to invite

49:08

you to overseas. Now you don't

49:10

have the money to go to the next community

49:12

for an intervention, and it is

49:14

sometimes a fraction of the money. But

49:17

they will spend thousands of dollars because

49:19

they want an Africa face at the UN so

49:21

that they will tell you, okay, we are doing, yeah, we are

49:23

in Africa, we are active in Africa. They want

49:25

an African face. Now you come back home

49:27

here, you don't have transport money to

49:29

go to the next community to support an

49:32

alleged witch. You don't have transport

49:34

money to go to Bauchi state like now

49:36

and provide the support for this child,

49:39

who is being treated as a child witch.

49:41

You get it. So, but now they satisfy

49:43

it, and you guys clap for them. Oh, these

49:45

are our people, they're on ground. They're

49:47

telling us what is going on in this native

49:49

land among these Africans. But here

49:52

nothing. They are not on ground. They're

49:54

just doing tokenism. They're just doing PR

49:56

for you guys, and you guys accept them. So,

49:59

what am I trying to say? What you can do

50:01

for us is bring this campaign

50:03

into the 21st century. Yes.

50:05

Now you can reach out to me. I can

50:07

take you to places I can speak

50:09

from the scene, things happening. So

50:12

you don't need all those people in between. That's

50:14

one. Two, the resources.

50:17

Let them go directly to the

50:19

people on ground. They waste a lot

50:21

of money on visa, only I don't

50:23

want to come to America to come and

50:25

talk about witchcraft. I want to be

50:27

here. Give me the resources.

50:29

Let me stay here in Nigeria. Let me

50:31

go to Malawi. Let me go to South Africa.

50:34

Let me go to Liberia. Let me go to Zambia

50:36

and Zimbabwe and sit with the people

50:38

and begin the process of addressing

50:41

this problem. Enough of this tokenism.

50:43

Enough of this PR. Enough of this

50:45

superficial campaign. Enough of this patronizing

50:48

approach. You trying to tell us

50:50

how Africans should do it. I know what

50:53

to do. I know the problem. I know

50:55

the people. I know what to do. Stop

50:57

making it seem as if I don't, I'm not intelligent

50:59

enough, you know how to solve my problem. I

51:01

know it. I need the means. I

51:03

need the tools. Support me. Don't do

51:05

it for me.

51:08

Are there other organizations

51:10

like yours in other nations?

51:15

Well, there are organizations

51:18

working on

51:20

this. There are organizations trying

51:22

to address this problem, but

51:25

I want to let you know our approach is

51:27

different. Yes. Very

51:30

often they will call them human rights organization,

51:32

so you wouldn't even know that they're addressing the problem.

51:35

And they don't want to send the message that they're

51:37

also addressing the problem, because, like now,

51:40

my organization, whenever we have meetings,

51:42

they'll be coming. They say, "are you what? Who

51:44

are you? Are you, are you guys witches?

51:46

Or what are you people really doing?" So

51:49

there is always that challenge. Many

51:51

organizations want to kind

51:53

of play down on

51:55

it and do it in a very subtle

51:58

and covert manner. And by

52:00

so doing, they won't be achieving clear

52:02

results. Yes. "Oh, we

52:04

are addressing the elderly, the rights of the elderly."

52:07

Then they will now put witchcraft inside,

52:09

and they will not talk about it a lot. Oh,

52:11

it's human rights they're addressing.

52:14

But that's why I came. Advocacy

52:16

for Alleged Witches. Take it or leave

52:18

it. Let's talk about it. Okay.

52:22

So we have not had a

52:24

campaign that comes, crisp and clear, precise,

52:28

running it this way. But there are

52:30

other organizations, women rights organizations,

52:32

gender-based violence organizations,

52:35

human rights organizations, child rights

52:37

organizations, addressing this problem

52:39

in a very subtle manner. And I worked

52:41

with them and I'm always frustrated. Do you

52:43

know why? Let me give you an example.

52:46

I was working with one of them some years ago.

52:48

We were addressing the problem of,

52:51

you know, witchcraft, and we were just

52:53

having some rest, trying to get some

52:55

food in the village. So

52:57

one of them asked me, "ah, look,

53:01

Leo, are you saying that witches

53:03

don't exist?" I

53:05

was like, "okay." Now,

53:08

get me right when I say this, I'm not saying

53:11

that members or Wiccans who

53:13

answer witches don't exist. I want to get this

53:15

clear, because, Sarah, Josh, I

53:17

have to be clear. Whenever I'm discussing with Westerners

53:19

where this issue comes, I'm not

53:21

saying that Wiccans don't

53:23

exist. When we say witches

53:26

in Africa, we mean people who fly out

53:28

at night and go and suck blood on the roadside.

53:30

That's what we mean. And when we say

53:32

do witches exist, that's what we are addressing.

53:35

So for us at our organization,

53:37

it is a myth. Nobody flies

53:39

out at night while others are sleeping to go and

53:41

sock blood on the roadside. Nobody

53:44

flies out at night to go and poison

53:46

people and kill them spiritually and all that.

53:49

Now for you to ask me this question, when

53:51

we are doing the campaign against witchcraft accusation

53:54

means that you didn't even understand the

53:56

campaign we're doing. So when this guy,

53:59

when this is a, is actually a lady that asked me this

54:01

question, I was so demoralized. Now,

54:04

number two, there is also another organization,

54:06

they call them child rights organization. They were doing

54:08

this campaign. And we appeared before a TV

54:12

program, and the anchor person

54:14

asked me, can they, can

54:16

children and adults be witches?" I said, "no,

54:19

children and adults cannot be witches, because they

54:21

cannot fly out at night and suck blood

54:24

or turn into birds and all that and all

54:26

that. They cannot." This is my answer.

54:29

Now, a colleague of mine who

54:31

came from UK, you know, because

54:33

when you come from UK and America, they give you a lot of

54:35

respect here, even when you are talking rubbish,

54:38

they keep respecting, you know? So

54:40

they prefer to respect American

54:42

or European who talks rubbish to an African

54:45

who talks sense. Now let me give you how,

54:47

let tell you what happened. So they asked this guy, "can

54:50

children and adults be witches?" He

54:52

said, "children cannot be witches, but

54:54

adults could be." So

54:57

we literally contradicted ourselves

54:59

at the TV. So the

55:02

anchor person now, know, just

55:04

faced me and said, "okay, look at what your colleague is saying."

55:06

So there is this kind of falsification.

55:09

There's this kind of, neither here nor

55:11

there, things people are doing.

55:13

So there are organization doing

55:15

it, but sometimes they don't have very clear,

55:18

concise philosophy and positions

55:21

on these issues. Now, I attended

55:23

a UNICEF seminar in

55:25

Nigeria, and now one

55:28

of the judges who was at that seminar, you

55:30

know, he said this, that, "look, children

55:33

cannot be witches, but I believe there are witches

55:35

and wizard." I told him, I said, "my Lord, this

55:37

is under contradiction." He said, "oh, you

55:39

have a, you know is your right. You can object,

55:42

you can you, is your view and

55:44

order." So there is always this kind of

55:46

neither here nor there. UNICEF has

55:48

released money. You know, you see UNICEF in

55:50

New York will release money to

55:52

address the problem of witchcraft accusation.

55:54

The people who will attend the seminar will

55:57

be strong believers in, in this distance, and they will

55:59

distribute their money and go home and continue

56:02

their belief. What a nonsense, what

56:04

a nonsense. While UNICEF

56:06

will now tell you guys in their report how

56:08

they have been addressing the problem of witchcraft

56:10

accusation in Nigeria and the

56:12

Africa. And when you read it, you say, "yay,

56:15

they're doing wonderful work." But those who attend

56:17

the seminars will come and tell you that

56:20

they believe strongly in what UNICEF is

56:22

campaigning against that, you know,

56:24

and all that. So what am I trying to say is

56:27

that there are organizations doing this

56:29

work, but some of them are

56:31

neither here nor there. They're doing it because

56:33

they have been paid, they have released some money

56:35

for them. They need to justify

56:38

this money they're giving them, and they'll

56:40

come and say something, even though they don't believe

56:42

in it, they don't do it. Shallow, superficial

56:45

campaign, they're running. And that is why I said at the beginning,

56:48

Advocacy for Alleged Witche s is a protest

56:50

organization, is a protest campaign.

56:52

And this is what I continue to wage until

56:54

we get a critical mass of Africans that

56:56

can help us free this continent from

56:59

this nonsense and make sure that

57:01

this vicious phenomenon, you

57:03

know, is put in the dustbin, the same

57:05

dustbin where the European Witch hunt is.

57:08

Thank you.

57:10

It is a vicious phenomenon. One

57:12

of the things that Josh and I were chatting

57:15

about before we met with you was about

57:18

are cultures defined by superstitions?

57:21

Do you find your

57:24

world friends outside of

57:26

your continent defining

57:28

you by their own superstitions,

57:31

by their, what they perceive

57:33

as African superstitions?

57:36

What do you do with the superstition part

57:38

and culture part and perceptions

57:40

of that?

57:43

You see, culture is a whole

57:45

pack of things. Like

57:48

now you're saying superstition, religion, myth

57:50

and all that, all this, but,

57:52

you know, the real, real challenge when

57:56

that superstition becomes a reason

57:58

for an abuse. Like

58:01

now some people will tell you that

58:03

women are weaker because women was created

58:06

from the rib of Adam and Eve. That's

58:08

Christians, now they use

58:10

something for me that was mythical,

58:13

because if for me, going by little I

58:15

know, actually man came out of the

58:17

woman, not the other way around. That's,

58:20

that's my, that's what I think, you know? Cause

58:22

that's what goes on. I don't know what went on many

58:24

millions of years ago, but at least that's what I'm seeing

58:26

today. You know, I was born of a

58:28

woman. It's woman that gave birth to me. So what

58:31

is this counterintuitive thing you're telling me?

58:33

You know, uh, that, that women

58:36

came out of a, of a man's rib or something

58:38

like that. Okay. Now, when

58:41

cultural claims

58:44

or conceptions or narratives

58:46

are being used to justify

58:49

abuse, that is

58:51

when I have issue with it. There are so many things

58:53

people have, because it's not everything that

58:55

we can really explain. And we have

58:57

been, you know, so there are certain things

59:00

in cultures that you can say these are mythical

59:02

or superstitious, cause not all

59:04

that we know. But when it becomes

59:06

the basis to justify the

59:08

abuse of women, the abuse of children,

59:11

the abuse of homosexuals, or

59:13

the abuse of anybody at all. Let

59:15

me, let me not just be calling that, or Africans. Some

59:18

people will tell you that, in order to, you

59:21

know, we are Lot, you know, Africans and from

59:23

Lot, they just come up with one biblical

59:25

narrative to explain why we are black,

59:28

and we know that there are scientific explanations

59:30

in terms of the sun, in terms of genetics

59:33

and all that. Now they will leave that. So we

59:35

are using it to justify the

59:37

degradation of human being. That's my issue.

59:40

So, because culture is a whole pack

59:42

of things, myth, superstition,

59:45

religion, name them, science,

59:48

all these you can bring in into that context. Now.

59:52

Now let me also say this. The

59:54

people who came to Africa had

59:56

their superstitions, they had their religion, but

59:59

you know what the made us here to understand their own superstition

1:00:01

was better than our own. Okay?

1:00:05

And over the years, they drummed this in in

1:00:07

their schools, in their health, over

1:00:09

the radio, and of course the media, what

1:00:11

they show us. So at the end of the day,

1:00:13

a lot of Africans have this sense

1:00:16

of inferiority, even when it

1:00:18

comes to traditional superstition.

1:00:20

But you see, they have that sense of inferiority

1:00:23

when you're writing, not in practice. When

1:00:26

they have problem, they resort to these

1:00:28

superstitions. Cause that's actually what

1:00:30

resonates more with them. Okay?

1:00:33

So there is this complexity whereby

1:00:36

people see that as primitive

1:00:38

or barbaric, according to how

1:00:40

they have been socialized by the colonial

1:00:42

religions and those who adopted it. But

1:00:45

in practice, they find a way of mixing

1:00:47

it, especially since it

1:00:49

sometimes helps them in making sense

1:00:51

of their world. So for me, superstition

1:00:54

is universal. You find it across

1:00:57

cultures and you, and, but

1:00:59

what happens is this, for me, as

1:01:02

a humanist or as a, as a skeptic, as a rationalist,

1:01:05

I'm always looking at the intersection

1:01:07

between superstition and human rights

1:01:09

abuses. And that's where I say it stops.

1:01:11

There has to be a limit. Okay? So

1:01:14

I bring in limiting factors. When

1:01:17

it's intersects or when it tries to

1:01:19

undermine certain basic

1:01:22

values like human rights, like

1:01:24

dignity of persons and all

1:01:26

that, which sometimes, some of these superstitions

1:01:29

are being used to justify. So

1:01:31

that's exactly my take on it, yes,

1:01:34

they're embedded in cultures, but when

1:01:37

they try to justify

1:01:39

abuses, then that's, for me, where

1:01:42

I come with limiting positions

1:01:45

and limiting sentiments.

1:01:48

How do you go about changing

1:01:50

a culture to remove

1:01:53

those harmful beliefs that lead to

1:01:55

the abuses?

1:01:58

Yes. Tough one. Even we discussed

1:02:00

it today. Of course, they

1:02:02

will always tell me, "ah, but you know,

1:02:05

it takes time." I say, "how long

1:02:07

does it take?" Sarah

1:02:09

and Josh, look, how long

1:02:11

did it take Africans to adopt sim

1:02:13

card, all these cell phones, laptops?

1:02:17

I mean, they announce it in the US,

1:02:20

iPad or iPhone. Within

1:02:22

weeks or months is

1:02:25

here in Nigeria. We have many Nigerians.

1:02:28

You manufacture cars, and

1:02:30

within months, the cars are here. Now,

1:02:34

stop killing your parents and

1:02:37

relatives in the name of witchcraft. They say, "ah,

1:02:39

but you know, it takes time." I say, "how long

1:02:41

did it take you to adopt the cell phone?

1:02:44

How long did it take you to adopt the cars,

1:02:47

and how long did it take you to start having virtual

1:02:50

conferences, virtual internet

1:02:52

websites, and things like that?" So

1:02:54

yes, I hear about this culture

1:02:56

thing and changing it, but

1:02:59

I also don't want to hear, because in

1:03:01

one sense, people change at a snap.

1:03:05

Immediately something comes out there in your

1:03:07

country, is right here within

1:03:09

the next aircraft coming

1:03:12

to Lagos or Abuja, has

1:03:14

that very thing in it. Okay, good.

1:03:17

Now, in another sense, somebody says, "oh yeah,

1:03:20

but we need to, you know, it takes time."

1:03:22

No, it's an excuse. I

1:03:25

dunno how they say it in English, it cop out something

1:03:27

you are trying to use, in order not

1:03:29

to follow the same rhythm you are following in

1:03:31

other sectors of life. So

1:03:33

what I'm saying is this, no.

1:03:36

If we can connect on

1:03:39

the internet and nobody says, "okay, please

1:03:41

can we wait for another century before

1:03:43

we can do this, we can go

1:03:46

virtual and connect with people?"

1:03:48

No, they don't do that. WhatsApp

1:03:50

messages, WhatsApp code, they are doing it. Okay?

1:03:53

Then when it comes to other issues, he said, "oh yeah,

1:03:56

but you know, our cultures are different." Somebody

1:03:58

was asking me yesterday, "don't

1:04:00

you know about African culture?" I said, "I don't know what

1:04:02

you mean by African culture. You need to

1:04:04

explain it to me. If African culture

1:04:06

means believing in nonsense, I I'm not African,

1:04:09

count me out, and if you

1:04:11

think it has to be gradual, I'll tell you no, no, no.

1:04:13

It will not be gradual. I did not,

1:04:15

I did not ask that we take a gradual

1:04:18

approach to doing this virtual meeting. Otherwise

1:04:20

won't do it today. We may not even do it this year. Okay,

1:04:23

so why should we introduce the gradualism

1:04:26

when it comes to other cases? When I want

1:04:28

us to move very fast? I want Africans

1:04:31

and Nigerians to join Europeans

1:04:33

and Americans in post-witch-hunt

1:04:36

phase of life. And somebody is telling me

1:04:39

it's gradual. Okay? If it is gradual,

1:04:41

please take the same approach in adopting

1:04:43

the cell phones. After all, we shouldn't

1:04:45

actually be using cell phones by now, because

1:04:47

it had to be gradual also. So let

1:04:50

up, in fact, lemme come with this.

1:04:52

You know what, Josh, let make everything

1:04:54

gradual. So the, the time

1:04:56

we adopt the cell phones, then that's the time

1:04:59

we'll also adopt and stop witch-hunting,

1:05:01

because they want to adopt one immediately.

1:05:05

Another one, they say, "oh, it has to be gradual."

1:05:07

Why? Why does it have to be gradual?

1:05:09

So, what am I trying to say? Cultures

1:05:12

change. Cultures are dynamic, but

1:05:15

it is important that there

1:05:17

should be people who push the

1:05:19

boundaries. Yes. And

1:05:21

that's what I want to do. Yes.

1:05:23

That's what I want to use my doctorate. That's what I want

1:05:25

to use my life. That's what I want to use my expertise

1:05:28

to do, because people are dying.

1:05:31

A woman, they, they killed a woman,

1:05:34

cut open the tummy, put stick

1:05:36

inside the vagina, private part, because

1:05:38

they accused her of witchcraft, in October in Nigeria.

1:05:42

In Malawi, some days ago, they

1:05:44

pushed another woman inside the grave trying

1:05:47

to bury her with the person, the alleged

1:05:50

bewitched. So how can we

1:05:52

be gradual about this, Josh? How

1:05:54

can we be gradual about this? I told

1:05:56

them, lock these people up. Let

1:05:58

that gradual thing, let them be taking it

1:06:00

in prison. It'll be gradual when

1:06:03

they're locked up, when they're put in jail,

1:06:05

not gradual we allow this people to be walking the

1:06:07

streets freely. If somebody

1:06:09

has now murdered the uncle just

1:06:12

about a few days ago in Bauchi State, how

1:06:14

are we going to treat it as gradual? And you ask

1:06:17

him, he said, "you initiated my son." How?

1:06:19

How do you initiate somebody into witchcraft?

1:06:22

It's nonsense. Tell the person

1:06:24

it's nonsense, and put the person in jail so

1:06:26

the person gradually will live. Please.

1:06:28

I agree. Let us go gradually,

1:06:31

but let those people be in jail first. Okay.

1:06:33

And let the people making this argument go

1:06:36

back to the analog phone. They shouldn't

1:06:38

actually use the phone by now, because it's going to be gradual.

1:06:41

So that is it. So what am I trying to say?

1:06:44

Are we using gradual to keep condoning atrocities?

1:06:47

Are we using that argument to still

1:06:50

allow witch-hunters to be going on our

1:06:52

streets, criminals, murderers,

1:06:54

to be given license to continue their murder?

1:06:57

No, I disagree with that sense

1:06:59

of cultural gradual growth

1:07:01

or development. No. Those

1:07:03

people. No, I have moved on.

1:07:05

I'm an African, like I tell them, but

1:07:08

I have moved on, and I'm ready to adopt what

1:07:10

I think is good and dignifying

1:07:13

about life, whether it comes from outside

1:07:15

or comes from inside, and move on. I'm

1:07:18

not part of the gradual thing that will

1:07:20

want witch-hunters, because this is

1:07:22

exactly part of the thing. They will tell us,

1:07:24

oh yeah, but Africans are not Europe.

1:07:27

We are. The same

1:07:29

blood flowing in you is the same blood as flowing in me.

1:07:32

I have the same sense of shock when people are

1:07:34

killed or tortured, the way you do.

1:07:37

So it is sometimes even Africans

1:07:39

use this to internalize their

1:07:41

own racism, to be racist among

1:07:43

themselves. "Oh yeah, but we are not Europeans."

1:07:46

And you are what? Are you not a human being, but

1:07:48

you fly the same European airlines. Why do you

1:07:50

do that? Why not go with the witchcraft planes?

1:07:53

I'm sure you people know that Africans, they believe

1:07:55

in witchcraft planes, right? Witchcraft planes

1:07:57

that are always on the ground. You can't see

1:07:59

it fly an inch above the ground.

1:08:02

We don't need gradual approach

1:08:04

to that. They should either make it fly,

1:08:07

or they should put it in the dustbin of history. That's

1:08:09

where it belongs.

1:08:12

You said you're ready to adopt what makes

1:08:14

life good, and that's why people

1:08:16

quickly adopt technology and

1:08:19

are ready to take on the

1:08:21

things that make their life better and good.

1:08:23

So to stop the gradual

1:08:26

effort they have, it has

1:08:28

to be seen as something that is going

1:08:30

to immediately make a

1:08:34

personal goodness occur for them.

1:08:36

And I was thinking about how you

1:08:38

are working to get critical

1:08:41

thinking to the students, to the young students

1:08:43

of your country. And that's, that's

1:08:45

a way.

1:08:46

You know what I have done over the years, I've

1:08:49

been thinking how do

1:08:51

I also put in place a mechanism

1:08:54

that will weaken the grip

1:08:57

of what you can call superstition, especially

1:09:00

superstition translated into

1:09:02

action that harm other citizens.

1:09:05

Okay. You can decide. For

1:09:07

instance, I went to the U.S.

1:09:09

They said they don't have a thirteenth floor. Okay?

1:09:12

Yeah. In the U.S., they said they don't have a thirteenth

1:09:14

floor. I was like, what? I

1:09:16

tried looking for the thirteenth floor. I could not find

1:09:18

it. I was like, okay, something

1:09:21

is going on here, but it

1:09:24

doesn't harm me. Does it? It doesn't. Okay.

1:09:27

Yeah. They have it and you laugh about it and

1:09:29

things like that. I don't have issues with that.

1:09:31

But it's also important for people to understand that

1:09:33

when you don't have a thirteenth, you have twelfth, fourteenth

1:09:36

floor, you have to ask a question, what happened to

1:09:38

the 13th floor? And you need a reason.

1:09:41

You need a reason. And when they tell you something

1:09:43

that sounds stupid or nonsensical,

1:09:45

you tell the person, okay, yeah, you don't have a 13th floor,

1:09:47

but you don't have a good reason for that, period.

1:09:50

So what am I trying to say is that I

1:09:52

was asking myself, "how do I

1:09:55

also begin the process of

1:09:57

weakening the grip of this superstition

1:09:59

in America?" Because the grip is so fierce that

1:10:02

people respond in a snap,

1:10:05

they have killed somebody, they have murdered somebody, with

1:10:07

impunity. So I said, okay,

1:10:09

it is important that I begin the introduction

1:10:12

of the subject of critical thinking. Okay,

1:10:15

so what did I, what did I do? How actually

1:10:18

do you define this becomes a problem.

1:10:21

So now after going

1:10:23

through. Do some research

1:10:26

online and trying to understand how to approach

1:10:28

it. Because here they teach

1:10:30

you critical thinking at the university level.

1:10:33

And I want to tell you, Sarah and Josh at the university

1:10:35

level, people's minds are formed if

1:10:38

people want to get certificate and go and

1:10:40

get a job or marry and start family.

1:10:42

People are so busy with some other things, they're not really

1:10:45

interested in learning, per se. Okay.

1:10:47

Yeah. So I said, "no,

1:10:50

the approach is wrong. Can we begin a process

1:10:52

to introduce this subject

1:10:54

from primary schools?" Which is my

1:10:56

focus at the moment, and

1:10:59

I want you to go hand in hand with

1:11:01

the efforts to tackle harmful

1:11:04

superstitions, because one

1:11:06

of the elements here is this kind

1:11:08

of dogmatism. I was in a car

1:11:11

yesterday, somebody was telling me fiercely

1:11:13

that they have a charm, anti-bullet

1:11:16

charm, that they can use it on my

1:11:18

body. I said, "don't use it on my body. Use

1:11:20

it on your own. And then you later

1:11:23

tell me how it has worked." He was defending

1:11:25

anti-bullet charm and was

1:11:27

telling me that, "look, somebody can shoot you

1:11:29

with a bullet, and it will not penetrate." I

1:11:31

said, "the person did not shoot you, or he didn't shoot

1:11:34

you with a bullet, maybe with water cannons

1:11:36

or something like that. I don't know." So what am

1:11:38

I trying to say? People are so dogmatic

1:11:41

in their superstition, so how do

1:11:43

you weaken it, their critical

1:11:45

thinking, but how do you deliver

1:11:47

critical thinking to primary schools

1:11:50

in a way that they will also accept,

1:11:52

like science in schools? So

1:11:54

that was how I operationalized

1:11:57

it. I came up with the idea of rewarded

1:11:59

for generating questions from in

1:12:01

all areas of human endeavor. So there

1:12:03

isn't something like a right question, wrong question,

1:12:06

no. They are rewarded

1:12:08

for generating questions based

1:12:10

on what they see, what they thought, what

1:12:12

they feel, what they taste,

1:12:15

and all that. So we started with it, and

1:12:18

it's going on pretty well. The critical

1:12:20

thinking is an

1:12:22

effort to respond

1:12:25

in a popular way to this

1:12:27

wave of superstition,

1:12:31

dogmatism, authoritarianism.

1:12:34

So that if people, if from primary

1:12:37

schools, pupils

1:12:39

are encouraged to question

1:12:41

ideas, they're rewarded for

1:12:43

questioning ideas, it will predispose

1:12:45

them to not blindly

1:12:49

accept what people say or

1:12:51

what they are taught. So that is what I'm

1:12:53

doing in the area of critical thinking.

1:12:56

It's still challenging, because we still need

1:12:58

to translate that into resources.

1:13:00

We still lack the resources, because very often,

1:13:03

when they're supporting you from the West, they want

1:13:05

to dictate to the minute details

1:13:08

what you do. I tell them, "no, give

1:13:10

me some liberty to innovate.

1:13:13

Give me some liberty to adapt program

1:13:16

to suit the environment. Don't

1:13:18

dictate as if I don't have

1:13:20

a brain." Okay. That's exactly

1:13:22

the challenge. So we are

1:13:25

discussing ways that we can

1:13:27

have that critical thinking to be adapted

1:13:29

to suit the needs of

1:13:32

Nigerians and Africans. Then non-Africans could

1:13:34

draw from it insights, which

1:13:36

they could also adapt to enrich

1:13:38

their own critical thinking programs. So

1:13:41

this is part and parcel of what I'm doing. Apart

1:13:43

from campaigning against witch persecution,

1:13:46

we are also trying to put in place critical

1:13:48

thinking programs, training teachers

1:13:51

on critical thinking, and also having

1:13:53

pilot schools where we do these programs,

1:13:56

hoping that at the end of the day, a more

1:13:58

critical thinking society will be

1:14:00

less disposed to

1:14:02

persecute people in the name of witchcraft.

1:14:05

They'll be less disposed to make accusations,

1:14:08

and of course they'll be less disposed to take

1:14:10

extreme actions like killing

1:14:12

and maming of relatives in

1:14:14

the name of witchcraft.

1:14:16

Thank you to Leo for speaking

1:14:19

to the issues occurring

1:14:22

in his country and other countries

1:14:26

right now. Thank you

1:14:28

for coming on our podcast.

1:14:32

We hope that we're able to

1:14:34

give you some kind of a platform

1:14:37

to the best of our ability,

1:14:39

and we hope that you find more

1:14:41

platforms to get your message

1:14:44

out there while you're still

1:14:47

where you are needed and doing what

1:14:49

you are doing. We came

1:14:52

out of our conversation with Leo

1:14:54

changed, and one of those

1:14:56

ways that I

1:14:58

changed is that I

1:15:00

have more hope and

1:15:03

believe that change

1:15:05

can happen quickly, more quickly

1:15:07

than I thought was possible.

1:15:11

And he's, I'm telling you there's a need. Listen

1:15:13

to me say that. Listen to me say

1:15:15

there's a need and I have the

1:15:18

plan. Support me. I

1:15:21

heard him, that's what changed. I heard

1:15:23

him say that.

1:15:26

It's about hearing Leo

1:15:28

and others and it's about

1:15:30

getting behind them with the support

1:15:33

that they ask for, because

1:15:36

Leo knows what he needs. Other

1:15:39

leaders in the area know what

1:15:41

they need. They don't

1:15:43

need people coming in telling them, do this

1:15:45

and do that. They

1:15:47

just need backing. They

1:15:49

need some change to happen in the

1:15:51

power structure in their countries to

1:15:53

understand the urgency

1:15:56

of the situation and to act

1:15:59

as befits that. What

1:16:01

I got from Leo was just,

1:16:05

be bold. Be bold.

1:16:07

Change can happen now. You don't have to wait for

1:16:09

a culture to change for

1:16:11

harmful practices to end. Leo

1:16:15

needs a voice. Give

1:16:17

him your platform if you have one. If

1:16:20

you don't, use your social media,

1:16:23

use your power of

1:16:25

conversation. Do

1:16:27

like Sarah's been calling

1:16:30

us all to act. For

1:16:32

four months, she's been calling us to use

1:16:34

our social media to share

1:16:36

these messages, to amplify these

1:16:38

voices, to get out the

1:16:41

word that needs to get out. And

1:16:44

one of these days, that message will get

1:16:46

to the people that need to hear it. And

1:16:49

we're hoping that your voices

1:16:51

will be part of that.

1:16:53

And if you're doing that, we will see it and

1:16:56

it'll get shared further, because

1:16:58

every day we are messaging

1:17:01

and tweeting and putting

1:17:04

posts out there. We want them shared and

1:17:06

we wanna share what we find, and we look

1:17:08

to see what's being said.

1:17:10

And follow Leo Igwe

1:17:12

on Twitter and Facebook, you

1:17:15

can find the Advocacy

1:17:18

for Alleged Witches social media,

1:17:21

and on Twitter

1:17:24

follow @LeoIgwe,

1:17:26

@LEOIGWE,

1:17:29

as Sarah's been encouraging

1:17:32

us all to do. The people

1:17:34

in the affected regions should

1:17:37

be the primary voices on this.

1:17:40

Don't just listen to us, listen to Leo,

1:17:43

listen to others like Leo.

1:17:47

Help us amplify what they're saying. The

1:17:51

more we amplify his message,

1:17:54

the more time he can spend in

1:17:56

person advocating.

1:17:59

Help us to give him a platform.

1:18:02

If you have a

1:18:05

platform that can

1:18:07

expose Leo's

1:18:09

voice and message to

1:18:11

more listeners or viewers,

1:18:14

we want you to reach out to

1:18:16

him and his advocacy

1:18:19

and give him

1:18:22

a voice in the world.

1:18:26

When you do that, you're giving a little bit of power

1:18:29

back to the children and to

1:18:31

the women that are being harmed.

1:18:34

We want to challenge all of you listening

1:18:37

to just do what you can.

1:18:40

Listen to what Leo has to say and

1:18:42

then get him on your television

1:18:44

show. Get him in your documentary.

1:18:47

Get him on your radio station. Get

1:18:50

him on your podcast, in

1:18:52

your newspaper. Speak

1:18:54

with him directly. Let him speak

1:18:57

for himself. He's been directly

1:18:59

involved in trying to resolve

1:19:02

these cases of

1:19:05

violence against alleged

1:19:07

witches, and

1:19:10

he needs to continue to be involved

1:19:13

and gathering

1:19:16

other people like himself.

1:19:18

More action can be taken directly

1:19:22

in the locations where action is

1:19:24

needed. Just

1:19:26

elevate his voice. Remember

1:19:29

to tell your friends, colleagues,

1:19:33

and everyone you meet about what

1:19:35

you heard from Leo today.

1:19:37

Support Leo's efforts and

1:19:39

the efforts for the Advocacy

1:19:42

for Alleged Witches.

1:19:44

Take action today and have a beautiful

1:19:47

tomorrow.