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1:20

Hi, I'm Ana Marie Cox and welcome to with friends like these this week.

1:24

Our guest is Chris Marshall, the creator of Sans bar, the bar without booze, which is why I wanted to talk to him today.

1:31

Chris has been sober for over a decade and wanted to create a space where people could connect without alcohol, whether that's because they don't drink or just don't drink that night, stay tuned for our conversation about recovery, the key to making a tasty mocktail and exactly what makes a bar a bar.

1:50

Here's my interview with Chris Marshall, Chris, welcome to the show.

1:57

Thanks for having me glad to be here.

2:00

So I know that Sans bar, not just because I live in Austin, but it made a huge splash when you debuted, because this idea of a non-alcoholic bar, I think captured a lot of people's imagination and you come to a non-alcoholic bar, I guess I had assumed that you might have been a bartender in another life, but no, that's, that's, that's not it.

2:23

You

2:23

open

2:23

Sans

2:23

bar

2:23

after

2:23

a

2:23

career

2:23

in

2:23

substance

2:23

abuse

2:33

counseling. Yeah.

2:34

A lot of people think that that's how I found this concept of an alcohol-free bar and no, it's the opposite way.

2:43

I, through my own experience, growing up just needed connection and found that part of my recovery journey was having community.

2:53

And then I became a counselor, did that for eight years here in Austin and discovered that other people were looking for a way to connect to people without alcohol.

3:02

And that's where the idea for Sans bar was born.

3:08

I understand it was sort of a particular kind of set of experiences and a little bit of disillusionment in your experience as a substance abuse counselor that, that kind of gave you the light bulb moment about Sans bar.

3:21

Could, could you take us through that story?

3:23

Yeah.

3:23

The

3:23

industry,

3:23

the

3:23

treatment

3:23

industry

3:23

is

3:23

something

3:23

that

3:23

I

3:23

don't

3:23

think

3:23

a

3:23

lot

3:23

of

3:23

people

3:23

understand

3:23

unless

3:23

you're

3:23

in

3:33

it. I think a lot of people watch, you know, TV shows about substance use or alcoholism, and you hear that the character goes to rehab and that's really the end of that kind of plot.

3:44

It kind of dead ends there.

3:46

And what happens when someone decides to go to treatment is this, this adventure in insurance and mental health and how we treat folks with mental health.

3:58

It is an industry that is staffed primarily by people who are wounded healers, you know, who then themselves had substance issues and are in recovery themselves.

4:08

And there's, you know, that in itself is kind of a weird dynamic.

4:14

I mean, there's just a lot of layers there.

4:16

But one thing that I learned inside the, the machine, seeing how the sausage is made, I realized that that Seeing

4:25

how the sausage is taken apart, maybe that's like the Mr.

4:30

Deconstructionist sausage, just watching it being in that system was really disheartened because I would see people go through the system with the greatest of hopes that their life will be better, that they would be able to find abstinence and remain abstinent after treatment.

4:50

And what I saw was a lot of people did not survive, right?

4:56

They did. Not only did they not stay alcohol free, they also struggled to even live.

5:00

And there was just a complacency within the industry.

5:05

Very, you know, this is what happens is, you know, when people don't make it, it's their fault, it's the patient's fault that they don't make it.

5:13

And I just, I, I stayed in that industry for as long as I could, because I believe we were doing good.

5:20

But then I thought to myself, we could do so much better.

5:22

And as I talked to hundreds of people, I worked with, I recognized the problem really was the lack of options when it came to connection to other people.

5:32

And then towards the end of my counseling career, I lost three clients in rapid succession, just one after the other.

5:38

And yes, you're going to lose people when you're working with people who are struggling with substance use.

5:45

But the way that these three patients died was just seemed unnecessary.

5:52

And the last person to pass away was a patient who expressed this frustration with being a 30 something year old in Austin, who was college educated, professional, and was certain that they didn't want to drink, but had nowhere to go on a Friday or Saturday night.

6:12

And that person's passing just, it just devastated me because it was, it seemed preventable.

6:19

I never want someone's cause of death to be loneliness or isolation.

6:24

And

6:24

so

6:24

with

6:24

that,

6:24

I

6:24

was

6:24

like,

6:24

okay,

6:24

this

6:24

is

6:28

enough. I'm never going to change the system from inside of it.

6:31

I have to leave the system and offer an option for everyone who wants to not drink for the night.

6:42

I have so many thoughts on this idea about dying of loneliness.

6:44

One

6:44

thought

6:44

is

6:44

that

6:44

as

6:44

a

6:44

fellow

6:44

person

6:44

in

6:44

recovery,

6:44

I

6:44

think

6:44

you've

6:44

shared

6:44

something

6:44

like

6:44

this

6:44

in

6:44

an

6:44

interview,

6:44

which

6:44

is

6:44

that

6:44

I

6:44

was

6:44

just

6:44

so

6:44

happy

6:44

not

6:44

to

6:44

be

6:44

doomed

6:44

to

6:44

die,

6:44

but

6:44

I

6:44

was

6:44

kind

6:44

of

6:44

okay

6:44

with

6:44

not

6:44

having

7:01

fun. Like I was, I, when I came into recovery, I was very clearly going to die.

7:08

If I didn't get sober, I'd been close to death a couple of times.

7:12

And so I knew that that was the thing that would happen to me if I drank or used.

7:16

So I was kind of like, all right, I guess I'll live and not have fun.

7:20

Oh, well I had tons of fun for many years.

7:23

I had more fun than most people have.

7:25

I used my allotment of fun.

7:27

Right.

7:27

And

7:27

then

7:27

also

7:27

I

7:27

discovered

7:27

that

7:27

I

7:27

wasn't

7:27

much

7:27

of

7:27

a,

7:27

as

7:27

much

7:27

of

7:27

a

7:27

socialite

7:27

as

7:27

I

7:27

thought

7:27

I

7:36

was. I think a lot of people who sober up realize maybe I don't like hanging out with people as much as I thought I did.

7:43

I

7:43

just

7:43

really

7:43

enjoyed

7:43

being

7:43

at

7:43

places

7:43

where

7:43

you

7:43

could

7:49

drink. Right.

7:50

But

7:50

that

7:50

doesn't

7:50

mean

7:50

you

7:50

don't

7:50

need

7:50

to

7:50

be

7:50

around

7:57

people. Right. I think there's a difference between being around people and community, you know?

8:03

And so sometimes when I think about when people say, I don't know what to do on a Friday or Saturday night, well, they could go somewhere.

8:12

Right. But without the lubrication of alcohol, you're going to feel lonely.

8:18

So

8:18

how,

8:18

how

8:18

do

8:18

you

8:18

make

8:18

that

8:23

different? How do you do, how do you, how do you make the, how do you make it community and not just a place where people aren't drinking?

8:30

I guess that's my, Yeah.

8:32

I mean, I, and I think that I've sat in spaces before and felt surrounded by people, but absolutely lonely.

8:41

I remember that very vividly towards the end of my drinking, I would be in a bar full of people and feel absolutely alone.

8:49

Like

8:49

I

8:49

could

8:49

vanish

8:49

from

8:49

that

8:49

scene

8:49

and

8:49

no

8:49

one

8:49

would

8:54

know. And so, yeah, it's not about just having people around you.

8:59

I really am after creating community, which says that no matter if you're there tonight, or you just don't feel like being there, it's always there for you, right?

9:09

Like there's always going to be people who want to deeply know and understand you.

9:15

And that's not something you find in any other kind of bar or third space, you know, you know, I, I grew up watching cheers.

9:22

That was one of my favorite shows that should have said something about my trajectory as a kid.

9:27

That cheers was my favorite show, but I love the idea that you can go somewhere and you can be deeply known that people can understand you.

9:35

And that's what I wanted to create, because that's what I felt was the missing piece.

9:40

For a lot of these people who were struggling, they really could not find that space where they could be deeply known and deeply understood that felt safe for them.

9:50

Right. They didn't have to be on. And I feel like a lot of the social situations we find ourselves in, we have to be on, we end up going places.

9:57

We don't want to go and hanging out with people. We don't really even like, because we have this need to be on.

10:02

And Sam's bar is a place where you don't need to be on, you don't even have to show up, just know that it's always there.

10:10

And I love that. I guess I'm just sort of drilling into this because I think in some ways the thought that I'm coming to is that bars are overrated, right?

10:18

Like totally I as community spaces, because there is an element of fiction to them.

10:27

You have this artificial lubricant of alcohol, alcohol establishes intimacy pretty quickly.

10:35

Right. And that's why people love it. Normal people.

10:37

That's like, that's a plus for them.

10:40

Right. Because they can also stop. They can be like, and now I have let down my guard enough and I will stop doing that.

10:46

People like us can't but so if you take the alcohol out of a bar, how do you encourage the kind of intimacy intimacy that makes people like bars as community spaces?

11:04

Yeah. I mean, I think to your point, the whole idea of alcohol creating intimacy is true and false.

11:12

Like, as you were talking, just not thought about a confessional of all places weird, but it's a one-way street of intimacy, right?

11:20

Like someone, you, you pour your heart out to someone, they don't really hear you.

11:25

And most importantly, you don't get to know them.

11:27

And I think that's the difference between the intimacy that we feel when we consume alcohol and intimacy to be found when we don't consume alcohol, when we can really not just share what's on our heart or not share what's in our head or the stressors of the day, but to really listen to someone else, you know, and deeply connect to someone else through listening.

11:51

So just tell me more about the Dunbar then, because that's what I that's, that's what I keep circling around.

11:54

I haven't been, because I've been here only been here in the pandemic.

11:57

I understand you recently opened back up, so I'm going to have to go.

11:59

But what about Sans bar creates that kind of intimacy again, that doesn't happen necessarily in a regular bar that, or that's sometimes created by alcohol.

12:12

I

12:12

know

12:12

that

12:12

you

12:12

have

12:12

delicious

12:17

drinks. So, and that's probably part of it too, for people to enjoy delicious things is one way of actually being communal, right?

12:24

Like that's a pretty basic thing that we have in restaurants, even restaurants that don't serve alcohol, if people are sharing delicious things that establishes a level and an a C.

12:32

So there's that?

12:33

Tell me more.

12:36

Yeah. So I think the goal is the intimacy that we were just talking about.

12:40

You know, the, the question is how do you get there?

12:43

And I think you get there by designing the environment in a way that is con connective and feels like a space of community.

12:53

So what do we do? So we, we do everything.

12:56

A bar doesn't do a traditional bar.

12:58

Doesn't do so instead of having music blaring where you can't hear anyone, all the music is at a nice conversational level.

13:04

We really believe in that, you know, music is great.

13:07

We live in Austin, the live music capital of the world, but music is a side character to the main character of conversation and connection.

13:16

So we, we, you know, keep the lights kind of up so you can see people.

13:20

We make sure that the music feels right.

13:23

It feels kind of good and not beat.

13:25

And then we also offer experiences, which people can connect around.

13:30

So our biggest night hands down is karaoke night.

13:34

People

13:34

love

13:34

sober

13:39

karaoke. I, I have a story, but shall I jump in?

13:44

Yes, yes. Okay.

13:45

So

13:45

my

13:45

marriage

13:45

is

13:45

ending,

13:45

but

13:45

it

13:45

started

13:45

in

13:45

a

13:45

really

13:45

great,

13:45

our

13:45

wedding

13:45

was

13:45

amazing

13:45

and

13:45

we're

13:45

both

13:45

sober

13:45

at

13:45

the

13:54

time. And we were thinking about what we're going to do for a rehearsal dinner.

13:59

Like, how are we going to have like a really cool intimate rehearsal dinner with no booze.

14:03

We

14:03

had

14:03

sober

14:06

karaoke. And here's my theory.

14:09

And you tell me if you're, you have much more experiences with this than I do doing karaoke in front of people.

14:15

It,

14:15

it,

14:15

it

14:15

creates

14:15

that

14:15

level

14:15

of

14:15

slight

14:15

embarrassment

14:15

like

14:15

drinking

14:15

does,

14:15

you've

14:15

all

14:15

let

14:15

down

14:15

your

14:15

guard

14:15

a

14:15

little

14:15

bit

14:15

and

14:15

done

14:15

something

14:15

a

14:15

little

14:27

dangerous. And so it's the same feeling as having gotten a little bit drunk and some in front of someone, do you know what Yes.

14:34

I mean, that's exactly it, there's a implied, shared risk.

14:39

Like we are all going to be a little vulnerable in this moment now, of course, you know, there's always someone, there's always someone who's like a great singer and they, you know, they pretend like, oh, I don't know.

14:50

They belt it out.

14:51

There's always that.

14:53

But, but the majority of people such as myself can not sing at all.

14:58

And they've never done this experience without alcohol.

15:02

Alcohol is always given them that cover to, to do this big public thing.

15:07

And again, it's, yes, it's important to get on that stage, to see those lights, to see the lyrics, they hear the music and to go, that is part of the experience.

15:17

But I think the real magic is being in the audience and cheering someone on and knowing that they are just as nervous as you were, and they need your support and applause and whoops, and whistles, the audience is what is the magic part of that?

15:35

I think it more so than the performance, it's see it's witnessing someone grow in that way.

15:42

It really flows both ways because the other part of the audience being there is that when you go up to do that and you take this, let's, you know, it's not that big a leap of faith, but it is one depending on your level of anxiety, right?

15:58

The audience fucking catches you right there.

16:01

They want you to succeed, you know, and I guess it's that combination of someone realizing that the audience wants them to succeed.

16:11

And then what you're talking about, which is that realizing that I want the performer to succeed, That I have that generosity in me that maybe I didn't even know that I had Right.

16:22

To deeply root for someone else, just because you know, that they need that.

16:28

I think showing up for someone like that is just, just super rare.

16:32

And again, something you don't really see in other venues.

16:35

I mean, we do comedy night and it's amazing to see people who have never done comedy who have always wanted to do comedy or who were, you know, comics and have never performed on stage without alcohol in most comedy.

16:53

Yeah.

16:55

That's a high wire, right? Like you were literally on tire and to watch people, the joke, not land.

17:03

And then the, the, the crowd to like acknowledge the joke didn't land, but still say like, keep going, like, you know, just the positivity behind it.

17:13

It's just incredible. I just, I love watching people find that net where they're held and they're seen, and they're understood like, Nope, it was a bad joke like that.

17:22

That was horrible, but we still love you.

17:24

We still think you're great. And just keep doing your thing, like to see that happen on a consistent basis.

17:30

Night after night at stands apart. No matter if it's stand up, if it's karaoke, if it's, if we're just doing like a game night, if it's just a regular night at the bar, we're just all hanging out, like to watch people support and cheer.

17:41

Other people on, I think is the secret sauce.

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21:39

Getting back to that idea that, you know, alcohol, any kind of chemical, you know, substance that works on the brain and its emotions can create this false sense of intimacy.

21:50

I almost don't wanna call it false.

21:52

It is just a sense of intimacy.

21:54

Let's just say that it can be real, but I think, you know, that's sort of traditionally why we often think of bartenders as confessors is that, of course, you're going to tell your bartender, all your troubles you're drunk or at least had a few and like you're feeling confessional.

22:13

That's what Booz does for a lot of people, you know, do you sober people open up to bartenders in the same way that drunk people do?

22:26

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the cool thing is, is I give back to that person, like I believe in reciprocity in that regard where if someone's going to tell me about their hard day and about their hard life, about their hard moment, I'm going to be an ear to listen to.

22:42

I mean, I was a counselor for eight years, right?

22:45

Like second nature. Like I'm going to listen to you, but I also always ask like, can I share something with you?

22:53

Because I want that person to know like struggle is part of the human condition.

22:58

And we all have hard days. We can all get through hard things and you're not alone.

23:03

Like I try to as much when it feels right.

23:05

And when it feels appropriate, you know, if it's a busy night, I'm not going to like, Hey, here's, what's happening to my, you know, you know, hard, that's the hard thing that's happening in my life, but I will just let people know, like this is a safe space, but I see people opening up time and time again.

23:20

I see people sharing the sensitive and soft parts of themselves because they feel the need to like, we, we need that.

23:28

We need to be able to sit down and say like, I'm not okay, I'm struggling.

23:33

You know, we need us, we need spaces to do that. And there's just so few of them left in the world.

23:39

So you're a trained counselor, are all the bartenders at Sam's bar counselors.

23:47

They, they probably should be and they'd be making more money.

23:50

They were counselors, Just

23:53

lay counselors, like most bartenders Lay

23:55

counselors with a lot of bartending experience.

23:57

So what I did was I had the counseling experience, but I wanted to make sure that the, the drinks were good and that we have great drinks because I, I knew that that was going to be a huge hurdle to climb, to make sure that people understood that no, we're still serious about the drinks.

24:13

We want the drinks to shine and that to be something people come back to, but the drinks are not the most important thing at CN spar.

24:20

It really is about the connection. It's really about offering a third space.

24:24

That feels, feels like home.

24:28

I want to at least end our interview with some, maybe some recipes, but, but let's talk about drinks for a second.

24:36

Because as a long time at this point, non-drinker, if I had to list my top three disappointments with sobriety, not disappointments, but let me, let me think of how to frame this.

24:50

I won't say what the other ones where they're little intimate, but not being able to find good alcoholic drinks is a huge frustration for me in sobriety.

25:03

Like we were joking before we started recording that I was going to go get a diet Coke.

25:07

Cause I cook as the official drink of like sober gen.

25:10

X-ers like that's, if you go to like a sober gen X, like gathering, that's it, they're going to, well, maybe coffee, but probably diet Coke.

25:21

And you get tired of ordering diet, coconut restaurant, you know, like at a special occasion too.

25:26

And then everything else is really sweet.

25:28

Like if, if you're not going to drink diet Coke, the reason I think diet Coke is popular is because it has a flavor.

25:34

That's not sugar, you know?

25:39

And I was talking to someone about making good non-alcoholic drinks.

25:41

And he said, yeah, people lean on sugar.

25:43

You know, so, and it's hard to get complexity in a non-alcoholic drink.

25:52

So what do y'all do?

25:55

Cause those are those first one was a bartender.

25:57

He said, it's actually a huge challenge to make a complex non-alcoholic drink.

26:04

You know, maybe two years ago.

26:06

That was the truth. Like it was really hard to find a way to build a interesting complex adult tasting beverage.

26:15

But now I, I, I would challenge anyone to say like, it's hard to find, you know, the ingredients to make a great drink.

26:23

There are so many spirits out there today that are just brilliant.

26:26

I mean, absolutely just mindblowingly award-winning spirits that are like rum alternatives at the bar.

26:35

We have, I think four tequila alternatives.

26:39

So like, you know, it's not just Lyman soda.

26:44

There's a lot of things that we can do.

26:46

Now. My favorite is an old fashioned and now I got sober at 23.

26:51

So I wasn't drinking many old fashions.

26:55

So I never, I've never had a real old fashion.

26:57

I don't Right. There's nothing to compare it to.

26:59

So you can't say if it's like the, like the original, but you can say you like it.

27:04

I, I like it. And I can't say people who do drink, come into the bar with that, you know, that skeptical eye.

27:12

And they're surprised at how much it approximates any other cocktail.

27:19

Right. We can get nice smoky PD, beautiful like botanical gins that are Juniper forward.

27:26

I mean, it's possible to make a great cocktail that doesn't include alcohol these days.

27:32

And I, I always tell everyone, like, that's all about safety and where you feel you're comfortable.

27:37

Some people don't feel comfortable with the spirits Going

27:39

to ask you about that. There's a controversy in thrift, traditional recovery circles about whether or not it's, I don't even know how to say it.

27:50

Cause it it's kind of pissed kind of pisses me off.

27:54

But the, the catchphrase one might hear is not alcoholic drinks are for non alcoholics.

28:01

And if something tastes like the real thing, eventually you're gonna want a real thing.

28:06

And

28:09

So I hear that. I recognize that, but non-meat, or plant-based burgers are for everyone, A

28:20

good response. I Mean,

28:22

I really think it's the same thing.

28:24

Like people who enjoy plant-based products, enjoy them for a multitude of reasons.

28:29

Some people enjoy them because they don't eat meat.

28:33

I born and raised in Texas eat a ton of me, but I still order plant-based products because I like the idea of a plant-based burger.

28:41

Sometimes I just want that.

28:43

And so whatever you feel comfortable with is ultimately the right answer, right?

28:48

I can't. And nor do I want to be the arbitrary of someone's drinking life, but I do believe in ritual.

28:55

And I do believe that sometimes it is nice to have something that is a replacement for something you had previously.

29:03

So people come home and they open up a bottle of alcohol free wine.

29:07

And that to them feels right. It feel safe.

29:10

We come from myself included.

29:13

We, we got sober before these things were even an option.

29:17

So for us it doesn't make sense, but for a lot of people, this makes all the sense in the world.

29:24

And for a lot of people, this is how they're, they're getting better is that they're using these drinks as replacement to keep the ritual, but take out the outcome.

29:33

Oh, I'm all, I'm all for trying.

29:35

I actually scandalously, I, I will have a, in a beer every once in awhile, this there's craft in a beers out there.

29:42

It's amazing. I actually, I've been, I've been looking into the botanical spirits and stuff.

29:48

It is fascinating.

29:50

There's a lot out there.

29:53

And I was gonna bring that up as far as like the it's wasn't a top disappointment for me getting sober.

29:58

But that ritual of like ending the day was a really, I didn't realize how much a drink mattered to me.

30:08

You

30:08

know,

30:08

I

30:08

shouldn't

30:08

say

30:08

that

30:08

I

30:08

knew

30:08

how

30:08

much

30:08

alcohol

30:08

mattered

30:08

to

30:14

me. That's what I knew. What I didn't realize was that idea of like, okay, I'm done.

30:19

I'm done for the day and how I know I'm done for the day.

30:22

At least when my drinking was under control, as I had a first drink and yeah, they alone ritual the not community part of it.

30:35

I mean, what do you think about that? Is it just like a signal, a sensory expression of turning off like one part of your brain and turning on another.

30:46

And I think we marked time with food and drink.

30:50

I mean, you can have no watch around, not have your phone around and just by what's cooking in your kitchen, I can pretty much tell what time of day it is.

31:01

Right? Same thing with, with what we drink.

31:03

You know, most people drink milk or orange juice in the morning and for lunch, they may have soda or tea.

31:10

We use food and drink to mark time.

31:13

And I think that the same thing is true for people who don't drink.

31:18

And during the pandemic, I started a ritual of drinking, a whiskey alternative meat.

31:27

And that was like my 5:00 PM.

31:30

My day is over. Kids are, you know, I'm upstairs, I'm getting dinner started, you know, she was doing zoom on she's a teacher.

31:39

She was doing school on zoom, but it was my like, okay, this is how I'm marking time because there was no commute.

31:46

There was no, there was none of that that usually indicates like where we are at in the day.

31:51

So for me, that dream was a way to like close out my day and the best part was I could wake up tomorrow and I feel great and filming.

32:00

And the other thing for me is like having, having had, you know, delved into this area of like the botanical spirits and whatnot, which are zero proof, I should tell her, we should, this is not about alcoholics tasting alcohol and then going nuts.

32:14

It's something that tastes a little bit like alcohol I've, I've talked to some people for whom it lights up that section of their brain.

32:23

That's dangerous, you know? And they realize that I think a lot of those people realize it right away.

32:28

Like they have a sip and they're like, Nope, this is not going to work for me.

32:32

You

32:36

know? But I, I do think of it is more like it's just a transitional thing.

32:42

And also for me, at least the times that I've had them every once in a while, I'm just, I just have to ask myself and be honest, like, do I want another like real quick?

32:51

Or am I just like, oh no, that was good.

32:54

Am I treating this like a, like I treat Booz or am I treating it?

32:57

Like I treat a really good dessert.

33:00

Absolutely. That is a great analogy.

33:02

And I personally, when I do go out and I find these beers on the menu, I order it just for the sake of ordering it.

33:08

Like, I'm still amazed that you can go to a restaurant and get a non-alcoholic beer that just blows my mind.

33:16

One that doesn't taste like dirty water.

33:21

It's awesome. So I always just say Kind of want to name drop if people are interested, like, I don't know about you, but like athletic brewing makes really good stuff.

33:30

Wellbeing, brewing Being

33:31

I'm even a fan of the Heineken 0.0.

33:34

I mean, I, people, some people don't like Heineken.

33:38

I love the Heineken 0.0.

33:40

I'm also a fan of the hops water.

33:45

And that is truly alcoholic, man. I call it. Cause some people will argue with you that the non-alcoholic beers have like this tiny bit of alcohol in it.

33:51

I've had this discussion a thousand times, But

33:54

there are 0.0 and I'm I'm, I'm one of those people that treat alcohol like vegan street meat.

34:01

So I don't have any, I do serve products in my bar that do have that trace amount just because I believe in giving people that option.

34:10

But no, I'm a 0.0 person.

34:12

So I drink the Heineken.

34:14

I'll drink the Budweiser's 0.0 and the hops water is great.

34:18

Cause there's literally hot brewed water and Alcohol

34:21

doesn't even get near that. It doesn't even like kiss it.

34:23

It's like out.

34:25

I will point out that the beers that have the trace you're right.

34:29

I mean, it's just different for everybody.

34:31

If you want to be totally, totally. If you feel like you have the allergy, that's like a peanut allergy, then you probably should avoid it.

34:39

But it's about the same as alcohol is it's less than you would get into kombucha Waitlist.

34:46

You find the same amount in a banana. I mean, it really is a negligible.

34:50

It, we scare people like it again, it's up to, it's up to you.

34:55

And if you're in a program you might want to talk to some people about it.

35:00

Absolutely. Absolutely. But also you don't have to do what other people say and you can decide for yourself.

35:06

I just brought up programs and you were a counselor.

35:13

And I know another part of your journey.

35:15

That's sort of, you know, branched away from traditional recovery.

35:20

And we're going to, I, like I said, I want to end with some recipes or other recommendations, but let's get back on the recovery thing was you've embraced this idea of a sobriety spectrum, Right?

35:34

Which in traditional toaster programs does not exist.

35:38

This is true.

35:40

I, again, from my own experience, my own clinical experience just saw that it was so limiting to have this binary option.

35:49

Either you were in a 12 step program and you were, or something like it and you were doing everything right.

35:55

And you were sober or you were not.

35:59

And it just, it made that make no sense to me.

36:02

And what makes me sad about that binary existence is that a lot of people didn't fit either one just didn't know where to go and they didn't make it.

36:12

I just, I just don't think that that's what we really want to do.

36:16

Ultimately, I think we were looking for a solution.

36:18

I think that to, to make a solution viable for everyone has to be inclusive.

36:22

And so I started looking at the spectrum and start thinking about you have on one end, you have sober serious, which like you and I would probably identify as sober serious.

36:32

The other end is sober.

36:34

Curious. And then in the middle you have all these different plot points, sober sometimes, you know, sober, you know, during the months of, you know, January, July, and September, you know, whatever, however you define yourself, you belong somewhere on that plot.

36:52

Because even if you drink all the time, right, like you you're, so you draw a sober breath, you know, sometimes I

36:59

don't know, you didn't know me when I was like some of us towards the end.

37:04

They're

37:04

like

37:07

I did sleep. I did sleep. I will say they were You're

37:10

right. Sleeping. Sure. Although I'm pretty sure the bourbon was like wafting off of me.

37:16

Oh yes. Still going through the system. So, I mean, I like to just position it that way.

37:21

Like we all have, It is you, you are at some point having to deal with withdrawal, if nothing else.

37:29

Right. And you have to make the decision, how am I going to deal with that?

37:33

And that is a sober decision. Whether you like it or not.

37:37

So sobriety is part of the question, you know, no matter where you're at with your relationship with alcohol.

37:42

Yeah. But I just personally felt like the 12 steps were very limiting.

37:47

I felt like, and I say this as someone who still believes in the validity of the 12 steps, absolutely.

37:54

I just saw enough people not get it and not succeed in that system.

37:58

Where again, I'm like, okay, we have to do something different because there's loneliness and isolation should never be the cause of death for anyone, especially people who are struggling and say that they have a problem.

38:09

So if the terms and labels assigned in those 12 step programs, aren't good for that for a person don't use them find, find labels and terms at work and, and stand on that and live in that.

38:23

And that's what I found sand spar to be as a place where everyone can go.

38:28

Although most people who come to Sans bar do not identify as being sober serious.

38:32

They identify as being sober. Sometimes in sober.

38:38

I find it ironic that 12 step programs have become somewhat rigid because as someone who still loves 12 steps, I'm just, I'm a huge fan.

38:50

And it's worked for me. And I know it doesn't work for everybody, but I absolutely fan girl, you know of them.

38:59

I do believe that the longevity of those programs is in their flexibility and in their embrace of anarchism.

39:08

Right. Which is that if you're familiar with the age traditions, a lot of them are like each group gets to make its own decisions.

39:14

There are no rules.

39:16

It's the longest lasting, ongoing anarchist organization in the world.

39:19

As far as I know.

39:22

Right. And you're not supposed to tell people what to do.

39:26

Right. Also one of the traditions is we are not the only path, right.

39:30

So I feel like it's funny that like within a there's all this acknowledged, like the text of it, there's all this acknowledgement of like flexibility and letting people do what they need to do, take what you need and leave the rest is something you hear.

39:45

And yet in practice, sometimes that message does not get communicated.

39:51

It does not. And I think, you know, in my own journey, I was one of those fundamentalist kind of 12 step people, Big

40:00

book Thumper. Yeah.

40:02

I, I will, I will.

40:04

I will let you call me that. No one else, but I, I will.

40:08

I'm a little, I'm a huge, I mean, let's make a distinction.

40:11

I'm a fan. I wouldn't say I'm a Thumper. Cause the Thumper for those who don't know people, it has a negative connotation as the word temp might, might tell people means you're, you're really, let's see a traditionalist I guess is the way That's

40:28

one way. That's when I, you know, fanatic extremists, you know, those are also words.

40:33

I realized that a lot of my fundamentalism changed from, I think, which is with all belief came from this idea that I had to hold on to it because it saved my life.

40:44

And if I let anyone question it or anyone like talk badly about it or anyone to change it in any way, it would change the thing that saved my life.

40:54

I was one of those people who could not be sober, curious, I have to be sober serious if I want to survive.

41:01

And so for someone to, to rattle the thing that saved me, the, that was my compass.

41:09

I just, I fought really hard against that.

41:13

And that's why I really struggled to embrace other pathways because I was so afraid that if I were to acknowledge the existence of other pathways, it may invalidate my own.

41:23

And it wasn't until I became a counselor, I started seeing like, wait a second, whatever works for this person is the right way.

41:30

Oh, well then maybe it's okay.

41:33

And it didn't disrupt my recovery journey.

41:36

Well then maybe we need to be more of a big tent and just start to see that other people were getting better in other ways and have added to my recovery programs.

41:45

And you know, I do attend meetings, but very seldomly now it really is about these alternative programs that I find myself in that acknowledged my blackness.

41:54

No, I was gonna, I was gonna talk about some other issues that people have with the program, the main program.

42:02

Although I wanted to say something about, again, the irony of, of the ideas embedded in AA are incredibly flexible and giving and generous.

42:14

Also a point at just as a, I think it's connected.

42:16

It was integrated right from the beginning.

42:19

A has always had people of color in it in the thirties, which unusual at the time, although it was founded by mostly rich white guys and that legacy lingers, but like in spirituality, in AA, we, we totally are like, yeah, whatever path you want, dude, you know, whatever you want to call it.

42:38

And yet it also, literally in the traditions, it says the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking.

42:47

It's not even that you have to be sober, right?

42:51

So there's all this flexibility in all this invitation in the, in the text.

42:58

But I guess humans aren't, you know, especially those of us who are black and white thinkers, I guess it does.

43:02

It makes total sense that a bunch of alcoholics would not be able to keep that flexibility in their heads.

43:07

Imagine that, imagine that in a world of freedom, let me choose lividity.

43:11

Imagine, imagine that creatures of habit, people who like to have a sense of control in their lives, all getting together.

43:18

Imagine that culture not being as open and inclusive as they'd hoped to be.

43:22

Although I'll point out one of the most like greatest spiritual warriors.

43:26

I know a woman who's been sober for like 30 something years.

43:30

One of the biggest fights she and I ever had was over me being rigid about sobriety and her being like, I don't know, Ana like anything that gets anybody interested in the 12 steps.

43:41

Like, why would you be against that? Like why would you shut them out?

43:44

And I'm like, ah, chemical's bad, But you're right.

43:51

It was because I, my life was saved and I felt this, not just like fear that it would be invalidated, but like what would happen to me?

44:03

Like if there are other pathways, I mean, I guess I was scared almost that I would fall off the beam that worked for me.

44:12

If I knew there were other pathways.

44:15

Absolutely. I mean, I think that's why it took me a decade of sobriety before I even tried.

44:18

And in hatred, like I, cause I, I didn't, I was told that non alcoholic beers are for non alcoholics.

44:25

So I was so afraid that if I were to deviate from what I was being told that something may and, and yeah, I think that's just true of a lot of us.

44:34

We just, it's not that we intellectually can't understand that there's other pathways in that this is a, a broad road of recovery and that many people find their Turn

44:45

me here in AA is broad road. Okay, come on.

44:48

You're supposed to, supposed to think of it as a broad road.

44:52

Okay. We get these things intellectually. But I think in our hearts, we struggle with that piece.

44:57

Like we are holding onto this thing that has literally saved our lives.

45:00

And another thing that I I'm learning to understand about myself is that it's okay to outgrow that system.

45:09

I mean, we outgrow almost everything in this world.

45:14

We outgrow relationships, we outgrow systems and institutions.

45:19

And I think that it's okay to, to grow beyond the thing that saved her life.

45:25

And it doesn't invalidate that again, it just says that that I've grown beyond that.

45:30

And that's where I found true for myself, my roots notes of life, the harmony that makes my life beautiful will always be the 12 steps that will always be home for me.

45:42

But I feel like I've grown beyond, like in my needs and my need to be seen as a full person, a person with mental health challenges, a person with substance use history, a person of color, an entrepreneur, like the point of the 12 steps was literally to solve your alcohol problem.

46:02

That's it? That's the point of that. That's, that's what it says.

46:05

The point of this book is to write and it did that, but it's also supposed to, it's not supposed to give you my, my social skills is not supposed to teach me those things.

46:16

It just, it's not, I don't, in my opinion, not designed to deal with, I

46:20

say like, I've I have some quibbles.

46:25

Okay. I guess one is, I don't disagree.

46:27

Let's put, I'll say that.

46:30

And like I said, I've had to work really hard to get to a place where I'm like, you can, whatever you want to do, doesn't affect my sobriety.

46:39

Like do what you need to do to feel good about yourself, to feel safe, you know, whatever.

46:44

So I do feel like I'm there, right?

46:48

The first quibble I have is to use the U S this is small, but the use of the word outgrow, I would say like, you become mature in your sobriety.

46:58

You make other choices.

47:00

It's not necessarily about growing beyond something.

47:05

It's just because to me, that makes it sound like, oh, that was what I did.

47:08

Like, I heard you refer to 12 steps is like training or labels as training wheels.

47:12

And I don't know if that's quite how I would think of it because I'm still choosing to stay pretty embedded in that life.

47:21

I just feel more like it's a choice for me now.

47:25

Like, does that make sense?

47:30

For Sure. And the other thing I would say, and this is going to have to be a longer conversation.

47:34

I might have to have some other time is I find that the 12 steps are programmed for a living.

47:44

And I use them in all aspects of my life.

47:52

And I sometimes feel sorry for normal people that they don't have this like incredibly rich structure for thinking about their place in the world.

48:07

You know?

48:08

Cause like the 12 steps teach me.

48:10

I'm powerless, not just over alcohol, but over everything, everything, that's not me.

48:16

Right. Someone cuts me off in traffic. I'm powerless. What am I going to do about it?

48:20

You

48:20

know,

48:20

the

48:20

12

48:20

steps

48:20

teach

48:20

me

48:20

that

48:20

when

48:20

something

48:20

we

48:20

have

48:20

to

48:20

start

48:20

quoting,

48:20

this

48:20

is

48:20

how

48:20

I'm

48:20

a

48:20

big

48:20

book,

48:20

Semper,

48:20

you

48:20

know,

48:20

anger,

48:20

resentment

48:20

is

48:20

the

48:20

number

48:20

one

48:20

offender,

48:32

right? The 12 steps teach me when I'm resentful. I'm in danger.

48:36

Like, well, for, as an alcoholic, I'm in danger of drinking, but also when I'm resentful, there's a problem.

48:41

And also the problem is probably with me and not with another person.

48:45

And to the extent it's with another person, this is another semi quote of the book.

48:49

That person is also a sick man or a sick person.

48:53

And I need to consider what that person has been through and what their illness or trauma is.

49:02

Right. So I don't know. I'm just saying like, I think like the 12 steps I I'm down with, like using him for the rest of my life.

49:08

I am too. And I, and I will continue to my, my entire life, but what none, not what I never hear.

49:13

I've never seen in that book once. It's the word injustice.

49:17

Oh, you, you are correct, sir. Let's get to that.

49:21

Yes. That's the one thing. And so I guess personally, that's why this is such a personal intimate thing.

49:26

Like no one can tell anyone, you know, how, you know, they, they get better.

49:32

But for me, I just had enough experiences from the, again, I got sober at 23 and I had enough experience of just being totally my blackness at the door.

49:43

And I just like, and then 2020 happened and I was just like, oh no, like we're not going to pretend like none of this is an issue.

49:51

And I felt for so long, I have subjugated that part of myself, which frankly needed healing because there was trauma there.

49:57

And I was never able to really fully acknowledge her address that trauma.

50:02

I needed to find a system that, that spoke to that and, and worked with that.

50:07

So I, I totally, it is a design for living that really works.

50:10

That is a quote like, And

50:13

I think that I find it to be a way of thinking through injustices as well.

50:22

Like you're right. Doesn't use the word, but I find if I follow the program, I'm going to down on the side of, you know, social justice.

50:30

I believe that that's where the program takes me every time, you know, I'm a have some bias, but I was also gonna say, I've talked to other people of color that had the same experience in 2020.

50:45

And I'll also add that I was going to meetings in Minneapolis in 2020.

50:52

And a lot of groups had their consciousness raised by the black people that were also tired of leaving their color at the door.

51:02

And that's where the idea that we have no leaders and we have no real rules got challenged.

51:09

I'm proud to say the group that my home group survived.

51:13

I know a lot did. So that's awesome.

51:17

Yeah.

51:19

Yeah. But for people who like, we're sort of trying to code, I don't know if you, this is what you're referring to, but what happened in my group was we had a discussion about whether this is going to sound hilarious to people who don't understand AA.

51:30

But if race is a quote unquote outside issue, is that again, people who don't know or like, what do you mean?

51:39

Like how could, but yeah.

51:41

That's what people get told, right?

51:43

Yeah. And it just, I mean, it's just all kind of things arise when you start to treat a, like the rest of society, right?

51:55

Like you take these, these real world problems and you, you bring them into the rooms, you realize like, yeah, we still haven't reckoned with a lot of stuff.

52:05

Like, just because we're all in here. And we're all like, anonymous does not mean that I want my, my, my gender or my sexual identity or my race or my socioeconomic status to get anonymous as well.

52:18

Like I want to be known and fully seen.

52:20

And I think that is part of the, go back to our talk, talk about vulnerability, right.

52:25

It's part of, of it to see and know someone fully for who they are.

52:30

And I just saw that a lot of groups were just like, we're just not going to talk about it.

52:33

We're going to pretend like there was never an issue of, you know, with race in that we've always been opening and welcoming.

52:44

Yeah. I mean, I'm, like I said, I think some groups survived.

52:46

I'm really proud of the home group that I have that managed.

52:51

We had a meeting the morning of the verdict in the Shovan trial.

52:58

And I was fortunate to find, I mean, it's just hard to find an AA meeting with people of color in it, a lot of the time period.

53:06

But I, I lived in Northeast Minneapolis, which is where sometimes you find people who aren't white and they're represented.

53:15

And indigenous people also are in my group.

53:19

And you know what, like, I'm really glad that we'd had the discussion like a few weeks before about whether or not race was an outside.

53:25

And we decided it wasn't by the way, that was like in part, because we, their AA meetings for LGTBQ people, their AA meetings for just women, their AA meetings for teens.

53:39

Like if you can acknowledge that, being a woman is a part of your identity that should get respected and is affects your sobriety, then your racial identity, gender identity, all why not?

53:55

Right. Like in women's meetings, we talk a lot about trauma, you know, like, and, and trauma from sexual violence and that's a societal issue, right?

54:06

So how could you, we're not, we can't leave our gender at the door.

54:09

We can't leave like our, you know, how we present in society at the door.

54:14

But I want to say something about that meeting, which I have to stand on.

54:18

I don't have to say anything besides multiple people shared that they were worried they were going to drink that day, depending on what the verdict was.

54:36

And I can not think of a better illustration of how we should be able to talk about who we are in every way in the rooms.

54:48

Right.

54:51

Right. Like the idea that someone would be told like, oh, I'm sorry, you can talk about whether or not getting a job would make you drink, but you can't talk about, you know, whether or not this mass social injustice will make, you know, I should make you drink whether your shrink over it.

55:10

Like, so I'm also saying this way, like if you out there curious about AA, you can still find a good meeting.

55:19

It Is like, I think we're going to, we're acknowledging, like there are some shitty people and shitty meetings and you're going to get told also not to bring up anything besides alcohol, which I think is bullshit in the big book.

55:33

Again, I keep having, having, going back, like in the big book, there are people who use used drugs.

55:40

Yeah. Like the second person, it ain't like the doctor, like, come on, There's

55:46

an IV drug user. And one of the very first stories right there, like ties up in his car.

55:52

Like, and times his drug use, it's actually a fascinating story for people.

55:56

I mean, this was brilliant, really brilliant writing in the big book.

55:59

But I, but there's another example of like where I think 12 step groups are a product of the country that they were developed in.

56:08

And I think that we have these great ambitions as a country and then read these very ambitious as a society and the gritty ambitious of, you know, of the 12 step groups.

56:18

But the reality is they're filled with people who are fallible and imperfect and still healing And

56:25

embedded in systems of oppression.

56:27

You know, like it's easy for the, for the old white guy in the meeting to be like racist and outside issue doesn't affect my life.

56:35

Right. You know, like gender, as an outside issue, doesn't affect my life.

56:38

That guy, nothing affects his life really.

56:42

Right.

56:42

Or

56:42

rather,

56:42

he

56:42

is

56:42

only

56:42

the

56:42

beneficiary

56:42

of

56:42

those

56:42

structures

56:42

of

56:50

injustice. So he doesn't see them as affecting his life.

56:53

In fact, his life has been quite effected by them in that, you know, he was an alcoholic who never lost a job.

56:59

He's an alcoholic or a drug user never went to jail.

57:03

Like, yeah, sorry, just I'm with you.

57:07

Like I said, I'm with you. Like, I think in terms of what I, obviously, I see what you're saying and I, my F my hope is that those people who didn't have 10 solid years of sobriety are able to find the place that they can go, you know, that's, that's the fear.

57:35

And that's why I was so happy that the groups that I was at least two of the groups that I was a part of managed to, like, you know, it was really funny also is like, once we kind of had the big discussion about it, it just stopped being an issue.

57:46

Like, and by that, I mean, people talked about whatever, right?

57:53

Like, you know, and it, yes.

57:55

And, and, and people just so quickly adopted so quickly adapted to the idea that you could talk about, like your trans surgery in a group, and that yeah.

58:07

That has to do with your sobriety, right?

58:11

Like you could talk about racial injustice and that definitely affects your sobriety.

58:15

These are not fucking outside issues, you know?

58:18

So whatever a people out there just deal with it and let people be themselves.

58:25

But anyway, I

58:27

will say, I, I do want to say one thing.

58:30

I do think that, because I just heard myself talk about like, how, like, it's like the country it was developed in.

58:37

And to that point, if you want to see change, you have to be in that system to create change.

58:42

Right? Like you, you have to, like, you do have a responsibility to say like, no, this is not okay.

58:48

No, we will do this or that.

58:50

Show me where in the book, it says that we're going to pretend like these aren't issues.

58:56

All of that. I think we have a responsibility as a citizen, within recovery to, to say the hard thing to do the hard thing.

59:05

So that's why I w I will always advocate for the 12 steps and believe that they have a role in my recovery journey and, you know, everyone else should give them a shot.

59:15

I just do want to say, like, for some people, it just does not fit.

59:18

It will, it just will not, and it will never fit.

59:20

It will never fit. It'll never feel right.

59:22

They will never outgrow it because it will never feel like it fits.

59:25

And so for those people, there are a multitude of other pathways, and I definitely encourage everyone to find that pathway that works for them.

59:35

And you know, what a great first step is, is just to try stopping drinking, like, just give it a shot.

59:43

And I say that with a little bit of humor as an alcoholic, and having had people tell me that and realizing, oh, shit, like I can't stop.

59:50

And that's one thing that might happen. But the other thing that might happen as you might realize some things about yourself, you know, and that's actually the most important thing.

1:00:02

Like just, you kind of know, what do you know what I mean is like, like I have friends who aren't alcoholics, but then stopped drinking for whatever reason, because they're curious, you know, because they want to try dry January medication, you know, whatever, and then maybe realize, you know what, I, I don't like going out as much as I thought, you know, Absolutely.

1:00:26

Or, or that alcohol is playing a different role in my life that I thought it was, you know, like maybe I have been using alcohol to deal with like my kid's homework or, you know, I'm the stresses at work.

1:00:39

And taking that break is such a wonderful way to check in and just see, like, how is this substance playing a role in my life?

1:00:46

I'm a big fan of dry January, dry, July sober September.

1:00:51

I think they're all helpful in determining that With

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1:04:07

So now maybe we can get to the, to some recommendations and recipes.

1:04:11

People want to try. People are sober, curious.

1:04:14

Yes. Again, just going to go back to what I said earlier, no matter where you're at on this journey, no matter what you, you know, how you relate to alcohol, always be mindful that everything is going to taste differently in different people and people, some people just don't feel comfortable.

1:04:30

I, I can do non alcoholic wines non-alcoholic beers.

1:04:35

I try to non alcoholic vodka, cause there's such a thing.

1:04:39

Don't know why there's such a thing. Like Let's

1:04:41

talk, let's get to the actual recommended.

1:04:43

So I would say, and, and the sandbar menu is full of like both.

1:04:48

Like there are some straight ahead, like we have a Sans TaRita, which uses ritual, alcohol, free tequila, Gavi, and lime.

1:04:56

And so it's a nice, like, beautiful, like margarita take.

1:05:01

We have a bourbon Shandy, which is great uses spiritless 74 bourbon.

1:05:08

It's like this beautiful, like brilliant bourbon and a uses athletic upside Dawn beer.

1:05:14

So it's got, you know, this kind of bourbon and beer kind of thing on with it.

1:05:18

My favorite, my favorite drink is the first drink I ever created.

1:05:22

And it's really easy to make at home. So that's why I want to tell you about this one is called the, I like it.

1:05:26

I love it.

1:05:29

Love it. As in Lisle, love it. It was a chance meeting I had with one Lyle, love it on a flight to New Mexico.

1:05:36

So I was like, if you ever come to Sans bar, I'm going to name a drink after you.

1:05:41

He never came to Sans bar, but it was such an impactful encounter that decided to create a drink named the, I like it.

1:05:47

I love it. It's got a ginger beer lime and a Rosemary simple syrup.

1:05:52

So it's kinda like a mule, but it just has the nice kind of like woodiness from the Rosemary simple syrup.

1:05:58

And it's fantastic, really super easy to make.

1:06:02

And again has one of those, those cocktail characteristics.

1:06:05

So I, I really try to make sure that we, we open up our menu and that is successful to every single person, no matter what they're looking for.

1:06:13

If they're like a serious connoisseur of great whiskeys, we got some drinks for you.

1:06:18

But if you're just like, I want nothing that reminds me of that.

1:06:21

We got that mule. We have a, a drink like Longhorn, which is like mango chili and seltzer.

1:06:31

So it's like kind of like a Mingo spicy mango drink.

1:06:34

We try to make sure that we're pretty inclusive of all kinds of flavors and tastes.

1:06:40

I suggest that if you're interested in spirits or what's available, that you absolutely go to some of these marketplaces online, there's a lot of virtual bottle shops that you can just go to.

1:06:52

I'm not going to name any by name, but just, just find just Google, like bottle shop online and there's five or six it'll pop up, order stuff, try it out.

1:07:01

Be mindful that they're not going to taste exactly the same.

1:07:05

The whole point of these beverages and spirits, especially are that they're adjacent.

1:07:10

And just like plant-based products. Like I've never tasted a plant based burger.

1:07:15

That's going to taste exactly like a burger, but I've tasted some really good plant based products.

1:07:20

So it's just be mindful of that in that way.

1:07:24

But yeah, come to Sans bar and you can try, you can try all the drinks.

1:07:32

Thank you so much, Chris.

1:07:34

I've been wanting to talk to you for a while. Ever since I read about Sans bar, I just really appreciate you coming on and I will stop by.

1:07:42

I promise.

1:07:44

Stop by, and then you can try all the, all the gins and all the like try before you buy it.

1:07:49

I think that's the best thing about, you know, space like that.

1:07:53

Maybe do some karaoke who knows, You

1:07:56

know what? I totally will.

1:07:59

I will come. When's your next karaoke night.

1:08:03

I think it's the first week in this, eh, I'll get back to you.

1:08:08

I got, but I'm going to hold it And

1:08:12

we'll post video. I probably put up on social total eclipse of the heart.

1:08:20

Ooh,

1:08:22

nice. Nice. Pretty good one. Yeah. Oh, and also, I mean, I'm an eighties girl.

1:08:26

I need a hero.

1:08:28

Another one. Just classic photo soundtrack.

1:08:30

Basically. You could probably.

1:08:35

Yeah. So I'll do I think if, if we can find on the, I need a hero, we'll do that.

1:08:39

How about that? We'll do it.

1:08:41

All right.

1:08:43

Thanks again for coming on the show. Thanks so much for having me on a big, thanks to Chris Marshall.

1:08:50

If you're ever in Austin, be sure to check out Stan's bar and follow him on Instagram to find the pop-up events.

1:08:56

He hosts around the country. He is at sands underscore bar.

1:09:01

The show is a product of crooked media.

1:09:04

Leslie Martin is our producer and Patrick and Tinetti is our audio editor.

1:09:09

Please take care of yourselves. With friends like these is brought to you by an effing, the Republic. I want to tell you about a show that I think you'll really enjoy before you judge it by its name, which is not safe for work. Give it a listen because you won't be disappointed. The show is unending the Republic or an F T R for short. It's a smart, funny, and really well-produced show. The New York times called one of the top 10 podcasts to listen to in the post-Trump era on FTR offers a thorough analysis of socioeconomic and political issues with an appropriate level of profanity. Given the subject matter, they cover everything from the economics of racism and mass incarceration to indigenous rights and climate change, and they hate really, really hate Milton Friedman. We also love that an FDR is not only listener supported through memberships. It's also funded through a unique partnership with a native coffee roasting company in an effort to support indigenous economic development. Visit Annette FTR that's UN ftr.com or search UN FTR on your podcast com. Check out an effing the [email protected]. Hi, I'm Ana Marie Cox and welcome to with friends like these this week. Our guest is Chris Marshall, the creator of Sans bar, the bar without booze, which is why I wanted to talk to him today. Chris has been sober for over a decade and wanted to create a space where people could connect without alcohol, whether that's because they don't drink or just don't drink that night, stay tuned for our conversation about recovery, the key to making a tasty mocktail and exactly what makes a bar a bar. Here's my interview with Chris Marshall, Chris, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me glad to be here. So I know that Sans bar, not just because I live in Austin, but it made a huge splash when you debuted, because this idea of a non-alcoholic bar, I think captured a lot of people's imagination and you come to a non-alcoholic bar, I guess I had assumed that you might have been a bartender in another life, but no, that's, that's, that's not it. You open Sans bar after a career in substance abuse counseling. Yeah. A lot of people think that that's how I found this concept of an alcohol-free bar and no, it's the opposite way. I, through my own experience, growing up just needed connection and found that part of my recovery journey was having community. And then I became a counselor, did that for eight years here in Austin and discovered that other people were looking for a way to connect to people without alcohol. And that's where the idea for Sans bar was born. I understand it was sort of a particular kind of set of experiences and a little bit of disillusionment in your experience as a substance abuse counselor that, that kind of gave you the light bulb moment about Sans bar. Could, could you take us through that story? Yeah. The industry, the treatment industry is something that I don't think a lot of people understand unless you're in it. I think a lot of people watch, you know, TV shows about substance use or alcoholism, and you hear that the character goes to rehab and that's really the end of that kind of plot. It kind of dead ends there. And what happens when someone decides to go to treatment is this, this adventure in insurance and mental health and how we treat folks with mental health. It is an industry that is staffed primarily by people who are wounded healers, you know, who then themselves had substance issues and are in recovery themselves. And there's, you know, that in itself is kind of a weird dynamic. I mean, there's just a lot of layers there. But one thing that I learned inside the, the machine, seeing how the sausage is made, I realized that that Seeing how the sausage is taken apart, maybe that's like the Mr. Deconstructionist sausage, just watching it being in that system was really disheartened because I would see people go through the system with the greatest of hopes that their life will be better, that they would be able to find abstinence and remain abstinent after treatment. And what I saw was a lot of people did not survive, right? They did. Not only did they not stay alcohol free, they also struggled to even live. And there was just a complacency within the industry. Very, you know, this is what happens is, you know, when people don't make it, it's their fault, it's the patient's fault that they don't make it. And I just, I, I stayed in that industry for as long as I could, because I believe we were doing good. But then I thought to myself, we could do so much better. And as I talked to hundreds of people, I worked with, I recognized the problem really was the lack of options when it came to connection to other people. And then towards the end of my counseling career, I lost three clients in rapid succession, just one after the other. And yes, you're going to lose people when you're working with people who are struggling with substance use. But the way that these three patients died was just seemed unnecessary. And the last person to pass away was a patient who expressed this frustration with being a 30 something year old in Austin, who was college educated, professional, and was certain that they didn't want to drink, but had nowhere to go on a Friday or Saturday night. And that person's passing just, it just devastated me because it was, it seemed preventable. I never want someone's cause of death to be loneliness or isolation. And so with that, I was like, okay, this is enough. I'm never going to change the system from inside of it. I have to leave the system and offer an option for everyone who wants to not drink for the night. I have so many thoughts on this idea about dying of loneliness. One thought is that as a fellow person in recovery, I think you've shared something like this in an interview, which is that I was just so happy not to be doomed to die, but I was kind of okay with not having fun. Like I was, I, when I came into recovery, I was very clearly going to die. If I didn't get sober, I'd been close to death a couple of times. And so I knew that that was the thing that would happen to me if I drank or used. So I was kind of like, all right, I guess I'll live and not have fun. Oh, well I had tons of fun for many years. I had more fun than most people have. I used my allotment of fun. Right. And then also I discovered that I wasn't much of a, as much of a socialite as I thought I was. I think a lot of people who sober up realize maybe I don't like hanging out with people as much as I thought I did. I just really enjoyed being at places where you could drink. Right. But that doesn't mean you don't need to be around people. Right. I think there's a difference between being around people and community, you know? And so sometimes when I think about when people say, I don't know what to do on a Friday or Saturday night, well, they could go somewhere. Right. But without the lubrication of alcohol, you're going to feel lonely. So how, how do you make that different? How do you do, how do you, how do you make the, how do you make it community and not just a place where people aren't drinking? I guess that's my, Yeah. I mean, I, and I think that I've sat in spaces before and felt surrounded by people, but absolutely lonely. I remember that very vividly towards the end of my drinking, I would be in a bar full of people and feel absolutely alone. Like I could vanish from that scene and no one would know. And so, yeah, it's not about just having people around you. I really am after creating community, which says that no matter if you're there tonight, or you just don't feel like being there, it's always there for you, right? Like there's always going to be people who want to deeply know and understand you. And that's not something you find in any other kind of bar or third space, you know, you know, I, I grew up watching cheers. That was one of my favorite shows that should have said something about my trajectory as a kid. That cheers was my favorite show, but I love the idea that you can go somewhere and you can be deeply known that people can understand you. And that's what I wanted to create, because that's what I felt was the missing piece. For a lot of these people who were struggling, they really could not find that space where they could be deeply known and deeply understood that felt safe for them. Right. They didn't have to be on. And I feel like a lot of the social situations we find ourselves in, we have to be on, we end up going places. We don't want to go and hanging out with people. We don't really even like, because we have this need to be on. And Sam's bar is a place where you don't need to be on, you don't even have to show up, just know that it's always there. And I love that. I guess I'm just sort of drilling into this because I think in some ways the thought that I'm coming to is that bars are overrated, right? Like totally I as community spaces, because there is an element of fiction to them. You have this artificial lubricant of alcohol, alcohol establishes intimacy pretty quickly. Right. And that's why people love it. Normal people. That's like, that's a plus for them. Right. Because they can also stop. They can be like, and now I have let down my guard enough and I will stop doing that. People like us can't but so if you take the alcohol out of a bar, how do you encourage the kind of intimacy intimacy that makes people like bars as community spaces? Yeah. I mean, I think to your point, the whole idea of alcohol creating intimacy is true and false. Like, as you were talking, just not thought about a confessional of all places weird, but it's a one-way street of intimacy, right? Like someone, you, you pour your heart out to someone, they don't really hear you. And most importantly, you don't get to know them. And I think that's the difference between the intimacy that we feel when we consume alcohol and intimacy to be found when we don't consume alcohol, when we can really not just share what's on our heart or not share what's in our head or the stressors of the day, but to really listen to someone else, you know, and deeply connect to someone else through listening. So just tell me more about the Dunbar then, because that's what I that's, that's what I keep circling around. I haven't been, because I've been here only been here in the pandemic. I understand you recently opened back up, so I'm going to have to go. But what about Sans bar creates that kind of intimacy again, that doesn't happen necessarily in a regular bar that, or that's sometimes created by alcohol. I know that you have delicious drinks. So, and that's probably part of it too, for people to enjoy delicious things is one way of actually being communal, right? Like that's a pretty basic thing that we have in restaurants, even restaurants that don't serve alcohol, if people are sharing delicious things that establishes a level and an a C. So there's that? Tell me more. Yeah. So I think the goal is the intimacy that we were just talking about. You know, the, the question is how do you get there? And I think you get there by designing the environment in a way that is con connective and feels like a space of community. So what do we do? So we, we do everything. A bar doesn't do a traditional bar. Doesn't do so instead of having music blaring where you can't hear anyone, all the music is at a nice conversational level. We really believe in that, you know, music is great. We live in Austin, the live music capital of the world, but music is a side character to the main character of conversation and connection. So we, we, you know, keep the lights kind of up so you can see people. We make sure that the music feels right. It feels kind of good and not beat. And then we also offer experiences, which people can connect around. So our biggest night hands down is karaoke night. People love sober karaoke. I, I have a story, but shall I jump in? Yes, yes. Okay. So my marriage is ending, but it started in a really great, our wedding was amazing and we're both sober at the time. And we were thinking about what we're going to do for a rehearsal dinner. Like, how are we going to have like a really cool intimate rehearsal dinner with no booze. We had sober karaoke. And here's my theory. And you tell me if you're, you have much more experiences with this than I do doing karaoke in front of people. It, it, it creates that level of slight embarrassment like drinking does, you've all let down your guard a little bit and done something a little dangerous. And so it's the same feeling as having gotten a little bit drunk and some in front of someone, do you know what Yes. I mean, that's exactly it, there's a implied, shared risk. Like we are all going to be a little vulnerable in this moment now, of course, you know, there's always someone, there's always someone who's like a great singer and they, you know, they pretend like, oh, I don't know. They belt it out. There's always that. But, but the majority of people such as myself can not sing at all. And they've never done this experience without alcohol. Alcohol is always given them that cover to, to do this big public thing. And again, it's, yes, it's important to get on that stage, to see those lights, to see the lyrics, they hear the music and to go, that is part of the experience. But I think the real magic is being in the audience and cheering someone on and knowing that they are just as nervous as you were, and they need your support and applause and whoops, and whistles, the audience is what is the magic part of that? I think it more so than the performance, it's see it's witnessing someone grow in that way. It really flows both ways because the other part of the audience being there is that when you go up to do that and you take this, let's, you know, it's not that big a leap of faith, but it is one depending on your level of anxiety, right? The audience fucking catches you right there. They want you to succeed, you know, and I guess it's that combination of someone realizing that the audience wants them to succeed. And then what you're talking about, which is that realizing that I want the performer to succeed, That I have that generosity in me that maybe I didn't even know that I had Right. To deeply root for someone else, just because you know, that they need that. I think showing up for someone like that is just, just super rare. And again, something you don't really see in other venues. I mean, we do comedy night and it's amazing to see people who have never done comedy who have always wanted to do comedy or who were, you know, comics and have never performed on stage without alcohol in most comedy. Yeah. That's a high wire, right? Like you were literally on tire and to watch people, the joke, not land. And then the, the, the crowd to like acknowledge the joke didn't land, but still say like, keep going, like, you know, just the positivity behind it. It's just incredible. I just, I love watching people find that net where they're held and they're seen, and they're understood like, Nope, it was a bad joke like that. That was horrible, but we still love you. We still think you're great. And just keep doing your thing, like to see that happen on a consistent basis. Night after night at stands apart. No matter if it's stand up, if it's karaoke, if it's, if we're just doing like a game night, if it's just a regular night at the bar, we're just all hanging out, like to watch people support and cheer. Other people on, I think is the secret sauce. That is what makes it feel like something really, really special With friends like these is brought to you by helix sleep. My helix mattress is still in the guest bedroom, which is why I occasionally sleep in the guest bedroom. Really. The only thing keeping me from moving it is that I'll need someone to help me move it. 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Save time and money this holiday season with stamps.com, sign up and use the promo code friends for a special offer. That includes a four week trial free postage and a digital scale. No long-term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps.com and click the microphone at the top of the page and enter code friends. Getting back to that idea that, you know, alcohol, any kind of chemical, you know, substance that works on the brain and its emotions can create this false sense of intimacy. I almost don't wanna call it false. It is just a sense of intimacy. Let's just say that it can be real, but I think, you know, that's sort of traditionally why we often think of bartenders as confessors is that, of course, you're going to tell your bartender, all your troubles you're drunk or at least had a few and like you're feeling confessional. That's what Booz does for a lot of people, you know, do you sober people open up to bartenders in the same way that drunk people do? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the cool thing is, is I give back to that person, like I believe in reciprocity in that regard where if someone's going to tell me about their hard day and about their hard life, about their hard moment, I'm going to be an ear to listen to. I mean, I was a counselor for eight years, right? Like second nature. Like I'm going to listen to you, but I also always ask like, can I share something with you? Because I want that person to know like struggle is part of the human condition. And we all have hard days. We can all get through hard things and you're not alone. Like I try to as much when it feels right. And when it feels appropriate, you know, if it's a busy night, I'm not going to like, Hey, here's, what's happening to my, you know, you know, hard, that's the hard thing that's happening in my life, but I will just let people know, like this is a safe space, but I see people opening up time and time again. I see people sharing the sensitive and soft parts of themselves because they feel the need to like, we, we need that. We need to be able to sit down and say like, I'm not okay, I'm struggling. You know, we need us, we need spaces to do that. And there's just so few of them left in the world. So you're a trained counselor, are all the bartenders at Sam's bar counselors. They, they probably should be and they'd be making more money. They were counselors, Just lay counselors, like most bartenders Lay counselors with a lot of bartending experience. So what I did was I had the counseling experience, but I wanted to make sure that the, the drinks were good and that we have great drinks because I, I knew that that was going to be a huge hurdle to climb, to make sure that people understood that no, we're still serious about the drinks. We want the drinks to shine and that to be something people come back to, but the drinks are not the most important thing at CN spar. It really is about the connection. It's really about offering a third space. That feels, feels like home. I want to at least end our interview with some, maybe some recipes, but, but let's talk about drinks for a second. Because as a long time at this point, non-drinker, if I had to list my top three disappointments with sobriety, not disappointments, but let me, let me think of how to frame this. I won't say what the other ones where they're little intimate, but not being able to find good alcoholic drinks is a huge frustration for me in sobriety. Like we were joking before we started recording that I was going to go get a diet Coke. Cause I cook as the official drink of like sober gen. X-ers like that's, if you go to like a sober gen X, like gathering, that's it, they're going to, well, maybe coffee, but probably diet Coke. And you get tired of ordering diet, coconut restaurant, you know, like at a special occasion too. And then everything else is really sweet. Like if, if you're not going to drink diet Coke, the reason I think diet Coke is popular is because it has a flavor. That's not sugar, you know? And I was talking to someone about making good non-alcoholic drinks. And he said, yeah, people lean on sugar. You know, so, and it's hard to get complexity in a non-alcoholic drink. So what do y'all do? Cause those are those first one was a bartender. He said, it's actually a huge challenge to make a complex non-alcoholic drink. You know, maybe two years ago. That was the truth. Like it was really hard to find a way to build a interesting complex adult tasting beverage. But now I, I, I would challenge anyone to say like, it's hard to find, you know, the ingredients to make a great drink. There are so many spirits out there today that are just brilliant. I mean, absolutely just mindblowingly award-winning spirits that are like rum alternatives at the bar. We have, I think four tequila alternatives. So like, you know, it's not just Lyman soda. There's a lot of things that we can do. Now. My favorite is an old fashioned and now I got sober at 23. So I wasn't drinking many old fashions. So I never, I've never had a real old fashion. I don't Right. There's nothing to compare it to. So you can't say if it's like the, like the original, but you can say you like it. I, I like it. And I can't say people who do drink, come into the bar with that, you know, that skeptical eye. And they're surprised at how much it approximates any other cocktail. Right. We can get nice smoky PD, beautiful like botanical gins that are Juniper forward. I mean, it's possible to make a great cocktail that doesn't include alcohol these days. And I, I always tell everyone, like, that's all about safety and where you feel you're comfortable. Some people don't feel comfortable with the spirits Going to ask you about that. There's a controversy in thrift, traditional recovery circles about whether or not it's, I don't even know how to say it. Cause it it's kind of pissed kind of pisses me off. But the, the catchphrase one might hear is not alcoholic drinks are for non alcoholics. And if something tastes like the real thing, eventually you're gonna want a real thing. And So I hear that. I recognize that, but non-meat, or plant-based burgers are for everyone, A good response. I Mean, I really think it's the same thing. Like people who enjoy plant-based products, enjoy them for a multitude of reasons. Some people enjoy them because they don't eat meat. I born and raised in Texas eat a ton of me, but I still order plant-based products because I like the idea of a plant-based burger. Sometimes I just want that. And so whatever you feel comfortable with is ultimately the right answer, right? I can't. And nor do I want to be the arbitrary of someone's drinking life, but I do believe in ritual. And I do believe that sometimes it is nice to have something that is a replacement for something you had previously. So people come home and they open up a bottle of alcohol free wine. And that to them feels right. It feel safe. We come from myself included. We, we got sober before these things were even an option. So for us it doesn't make sense, but for a lot of people, this makes all the sense in the world. And for a lot of people, this is how they're, they're getting better is that they're using these drinks as replacement to keep the ritual, but take out the outcome. Oh, I'm all, I'm all for trying. I actually scandalously, I, I will have a, in a beer every once in awhile, this there's craft in a beers out there. It's amazing. I actually, I've been, I've been looking into the botanical spirits and stuff. It is fascinating. There's a lot out there. And I was gonna bring that up as far as like the it's wasn't a top disappointment for me getting sober. But that ritual of like ending the day was a really, I didn't realize how much a drink mattered to me. You know, I shouldn't say that I knew how much alcohol mattered to me. That's what I knew. What I didn't realize was that idea of like, okay, I'm done. I'm done for the day and how I know I'm done for the day. At least when my drinking was under control, as I had a first drink and yeah, they alone ritual the not community part of it. I mean, what do you think about that? Is it just like a signal, a sensory expression of turning off like one part of your brain and turning on another. And I think we marked time with food and drink. I mean, you can have no watch around, not have your phone around and just by what's cooking in your kitchen, I can pretty much tell what time of day it is. Right? Same thing with, with what we drink. You know, most people drink milk or orange juice in the morning and for lunch, they may have soda or tea. We use food and drink to mark time. And I think that the same thing is true for people who don't drink. And during the pandemic, I started a ritual of drinking, a whiskey alternative meat. And that was like my 5:00 PM. My day is over. Kids are, you know, I'm upstairs, I'm getting dinner started, you know, she was doing zoom on she's a teacher. She was doing school on zoom, but it was my like, okay, this is how I'm marking time because there was no commute. There was no, there was none of that that usually indicates like where we are at in the day. So for me, that dream was a way to like close out my day and the best part was I could wake up tomorrow and I feel great and filming. And the other thing for me is like having, having had, you know, delved into this area of like the botanical spirits and whatnot, which are zero proof, I should tell her, we should, this is not about alcoholics tasting alcohol and then going nuts. It's something that tastes a little bit like alcohol I've, I've talked to some people for whom it lights up that section of their brain. That's dangerous, you know? And they realize that I think a lot of those people realize it right away. Like they have a sip and they're like, Nope, this is not going to work for me. You know? But I, I do think of it is more like it's just a transitional thing. And also for me, at least the times that I've had them every once in a while, I'm just, I just have to ask myself and be honest, like, do I want another like real quick? Or am I just like, oh no, that was good. Am I treating this like a, like I treat Booz or am I treating it? Like I treat a really good dessert. Absolutely. That is a great analogy. And I personally, when I do go out and I find these beers on the menu, I order it just for the sake of ordering it. Like, I'm still amazed that you can go to a restaurant and get a non-alcoholic beer that just blows my mind. One that doesn't taste like dirty water. It's awesome. So I always just say Kind of want to name drop if people are interested, like, I don't know about you, but like athletic brewing makes really good stuff. Wellbeing, brewing Being I'm even a fan of the Heineken 0.0. I mean, I, people, some people don't like Heineken. I love the Heineken 0.0. I'm also a fan of the hops water. And that is truly alcoholic, man. I call it. Cause some people will argue with you that the non-alcoholic beers have like this tiny bit of alcohol in it. I've had this discussion a thousand times, But there are 0.0 and I'm I'm, I'm one of those people that treat alcohol like vegan street meat. So I don't have any, I do serve products in my bar that do have that trace amount just because I believe in giving people that option. But no, I'm a 0.0 person. So I drink the Heineken. I'll drink the Budweiser's 0.0 and the hops water is great. Cause there's literally hot brewed water and Alcohol doesn't even get near that. It doesn't even like kiss it. It's like out. I will point out that the beers that have the trace you're right. I mean, it's just different for everybody. If you want to be totally, totally. If you feel like you have the allergy, that's like a peanut allergy, then you probably should avoid it. But it's about the same as alcohol is it's less than you would get into kombucha Waitlist. You find the same amount in a banana. I mean, it really is a negligible. It, we scare people like it again, it's up to, it's up to you. And if you're in a program you might want to talk to some people about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. But also you don't have to do what other people say and you can decide for yourself. I just brought up programs and you were a counselor. And I know another part of your journey. That's sort of, you know, branched away from traditional recovery. And we're going to, I, like I said, I want to end with some recipes or other recommendations, but let's get back on the recovery thing was you've embraced this idea of a sobriety spectrum, Right? Which in traditional toaster programs does not exist. This is true. I, again, from my own experience, my own clinical experience just saw that it was so limiting to have this binary option. Either you were in a 12 step program and you were, or something like it and you were doing everything right. And you were sober or you were not. And it just, it made that make no sense to me. And what makes me sad about that binary existence is that a lot of people didn't fit either one just didn't know where to go and they didn't make it. I just, I just don't think that that's what we really want to do. Ultimately, I think we were looking for a solution. I think that to, to make a solution viable for everyone has to be inclusive. And so I started looking at the spectrum and start thinking about you have on one end, you have sober serious, which like you and I would probably identify as sober serious. The other end is sober. Curious. And then in the middle you have all these different plot points, sober sometimes, you know, sober, you know, during the months of, you know, January, July, and September, you know, whatever, however you define yourself, you belong somewhere on that plot. Because even if you drink all the time, right, like you you're, so you draw a sober breath, you know, sometimes I don't know, you didn't know me when I was like some of us towards the end. They're like I did sleep. I did sleep. I will say they were You're right. Sleeping. Sure. Although I'm pretty sure the bourbon was like wafting off of me. Oh yes. Still going through the system. So, I mean, I like to just position it that way. Like we all have, It is you, you are at some point having to deal with withdrawal, if nothing else. Right. And you have to make the decision, how am I going to deal with that? And that is a sober decision. Whether you like it or not. So sobriety is part of the question, you know, no matter where you're at with your relationship with alcohol. Yeah. But I just personally felt like the 12 steps were very limiting. I felt like, and I say this as someone who still believes in the validity of the 12 steps, absolutely. I just saw enough people not get it and not succeed in that system. Where again, I'm like, okay, we have to do something different because there's loneliness and isolation should never be the cause of death for anyone, especially people who are struggling and say that they have a problem. So if the terms and labels assigned in those 12 step programs, aren't good for that for a person don't use them find, find labels and terms at work and, and stand on that and live in that. And that's what I found sand spar to be as a place where everyone can go. Although most people who come to Sans bar do not identify as being sober serious. They identify as being sober. Sometimes in sober. I find it ironic that 12 step programs have become somewhat rigid because as someone who still loves 12 steps, I'm just, I'm a huge fan. And it's worked for me. And I know it doesn't work for everybody, but I absolutely fan girl, you know of them. I do believe that the longevity of those programs is in their flexibility and in their embrace of anarchism. Right. Which is that if you're familiar with the age traditions, a lot of them are like each group gets to make its own decisions. There are no rules. It's the longest lasting, ongoing anarchist organization in the world. As far as I know. Right. And you're not supposed to tell people what to do. Right. Also one of the traditions is we are not the only path, right. So I feel like it's funny that like within a there's all this acknowledged, like the text of it, there's all this acknowledgement of like flexibility and letting people do what they need to do, take what you need and leave the rest is something you hear. And yet in practice, sometimes that message does not get communicated. It does not. And I think, you know, in my own journey, I was one of those fundamentalist kind of 12 step people, Big book Thumper. Yeah. I, I will, I will. I will let you call me that. No one else, but I, I will. I'm a little, I'm a huge, I mean, let's make a distinction. I'm a fan. I wouldn't say I'm a Thumper. Cause the Thumper for those who don't know people, it has a negative connotation as the word temp might, might tell people means you're, you're really, let's see a traditionalist I guess is the way That's one way. That's when I, you know, fanatic extremists, you know, those are also words. I realized that a lot of my fundamentalism changed from, I think, which is with all belief came from this idea that I had to hold on to it because it saved my life. And if I let anyone question it or anyone like talk badly about it or anyone to change it in any way, it would change the thing that saved my life. I was one of those people who could not be sober, curious, I have to be sober serious if I want to survive. And so for someone to, to rattle the thing that saved me, the, that was my compass. I just, I fought really hard against that. And that's why I really struggled to embrace other pathways because I was so afraid that if I were to acknowledge the existence of other pathways, it may invalidate my own. And it wasn't until I became a counselor, I started seeing like, wait a second, whatever works for this person is the right way. Oh, well then maybe it's okay. And it didn't disrupt my recovery journey. Well then maybe we need to be more of a big tent and just start to see that other people were getting better in other ways and have added to my recovery programs. And you know, I do attend meetings, but very seldomly now it really is about these alternative programs that I find myself in that acknowledged my blackness. No, I was gonna, I was gonna talk about some other issues that people have with the program, the main program. Although I wanted to say something about, again, the irony of, of the ideas embedded in AA are incredibly flexible and giving and generous. Also a point at just as a, I think it's connected. It was integrated right from the beginning. A has always had people of color in it in the thirties, which unusual at the time, although it was founded by mostly rich white guys and that legacy lingers, but like in spirituality, in AA, we, we totally are like, yeah, whatever path you want, dude, you know, whatever you want to call it. And yet it also, literally in the traditions, it says the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. It's not even that you have to be sober, right? So there's all this flexibility in all this invitation in the, in the text. But I guess humans aren't, you know, especially those of us who are black and white thinkers, I guess it does. It makes total sense that a bunch of alcoholics would not be able to keep that flexibility in their heads. Imagine that, imagine that in a world of freedom, let me choose lividity. Imagine, imagine that creatures of habit, people who like to have a sense of control in their lives, all getting together. Imagine that culture not being as open and inclusive as they'd hoped to be. Although I'll point out one of the most like greatest spiritual warriors. I know a woman who's been sober for like 30 something years. One of the biggest fights she and I ever had was over me being rigid about sobriety and her being like, I don't know, Ana like anything that gets anybody interested in the 12 steps. Like, why would you be against that? Like why would you shut them out? And I'm like, ah, chemical's bad, But you're right. It was because I, my life was saved and I felt this, not just like fear that it would be invalidated, but like what would happen to me? Like if there are other pathways, I mean, I guess I was scared almost that I would fall off the beam that worked for me. If I knew there were other pathways. Absolutely. I mean, I think that's why it took me a decade of sobriety before I even tried. And in hatred, like I, cause I, I didn't, I was told that non alcoholic beers are for non alcoholics. So I was so afraid that if I were to deviate from what I was being told that something may and, and yeah, I think that's just true of a lot of us. We just, it's not that we intellectually can't understand that there's other pathways in that this is a, a broad road of recovery and that many people find their Turn me here in AA is broad road. Okay, come on. You're supposed to, supposed to think of it as a broad road. Okay. We get these things intellectually. But I think in our hearts, we struggle with that piece. Like we are holding onto this thing that has literally saved our lives. And another thing that I I'm learning to understand about myself is that it's okay to outgrow that system. I mean, we outgrow almost everything in this world. We outgrow relationships, we outgrow systems and institutions. And I think that it's okay to, to grow beyond the thing that saved her life. And it doesn't invalidate that again, it just says that that I've grown beyond that. And that's where I found true for myself, my roots notes of life, the harmony that makes my life beautiful will always be the 12 steps that will always be home for me. But I feel like I've grown beyond, like in my needs and my need to be seen as a full person, a person with mental health challenges, a person with substance use history, a person of color, an entrepreneur, like the point of the 12 steps was literally to solve your alcohol problem. That's it? That's the point of that. That's, that's what it says. The point of this book is to write and it did that, but it's also supposed to, it's not supposed to give you my, my social skills is not supposed to teach me those things. It just, it's not, I don't, in my opinion, not designed to deal with, I say like, I've I have some quibbles. Okay. I guess one is, I don't disagree. Let's put, I'll say that. And like I said, I've had to work really hard to get to a place where I'm like, you can, whatever you want to do, doesn't affect my sobriety. Like do what you need to do to feel good about yourself, to feel safe, you know, whatever. So I do feel like I'm there, right? The first quibble I have is to use the U S this is small, but the use of the word outgrow, I would say like, you become mature in your sobriety. You make other choices. It's not necessarily about growing beyond something. It's just because to me, that makes it sound like, oh, that was what I did. Like, I heard you refer to 12 steps is like training or labels as training wheels. And I don't know if that's quite how I would think of it because I'm still choosing to stay pretty embedded in that life. I just feel more like it's a choice for me now. Like, does that make sense? For Sure. And the other thing I would say, and this is going to have to be a longer conversation. I might have to have some other time is I find that the 12 steps are programmed for a living. And I use them in all aspects of my life. And I sometimes feel sorry for normal people that they don't have this like incredibly rich structure for thinking about their place in the world. You know? Cause like the 12 steps teach me. I'm powerless, not just over alcohol, but over everything, everything, that's not me. Right. Someone cuts me off in traffic. I'm powerless. What am I going to do about it? You know, the 12 steps teach me that when something we have to start quoting, this is how I'm a big book, Semper, you know, anger, resentment is the number one offender, right? The 12 steps teach me when I'm resentful. I'm in danger. Like, well, for, as an alcoholic, I'm in danger of drinking, but also when I'm resentful, there's a problem. And also the problem is probably with me and not with another person. And to the extent it's with another person, this is another semi quote of the book. That person is also a sick man or a sick person. And I need to consider what that person has been through and what their illness or trauma is. Right. So I don't know. I'm just saying like, I think like the 12 steps I I'm down with, like using him for the rest of my life. I am too. And I, and I will continue to my, my entire life, but what none, not what I never hear. I've never seen in that book once. It's the word injustice. Oh, you, you are correct, sir. Let's get to that. Yes. That's the one thing. And so I guess personally, that's why this is such a personal intimate thing. Like no one can tell anyone, you know, how, you know, they, they get better. But for me, I just had enough experiences from the, again, I got sober at 23 and I had enough experience of just being totally my blackness at the door. And I just like, and then 2020 happened and I was just like, oh no, like we're not going to pretend like none of this is an issue. And I felt for so long, I have subjugated that part of myself, which frankly needed healing because there was trauma there. And I was never able to really fully acknowledge her address that trauma. I needed to find a system that, that spoke to that and, and worked with that. So I, I totally, it is a design for living that really works. That is a quote like, And I think that I find it to be a way of thinking through injustices as well. Like you're right. Doesn't use the word, but I find if I follow the program, I'm going to down on the side of, you know, social justice. I believe that that's where the program takes me every time, you know, I'm a have some bias, but I was also gonna say, I've talked to other people of color that had the same experience in 2020. And I'll also add that I was going to meetings in Minneapolis in 2020. And a lot of groups had their consciousness raised by the black people that were also tired of leaving their color at the door. And that's where the idea that we have no leaders and we have no real rules got challenged. I'm proud to say the group that my home group survived. I know a lot did. So that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. But for people who like, we're sort of trying to code, I don't know if you, this is what you're referring to, but what happened in my group was we had a discussion about whether this is going to sound hilarious to people who don't understand AA. But if race is a quote unquote outside issue, is that again, people who don't know or like, what do you mean? Like how could, but yeah. That's what people get told, right? Yeah. And it just, I mean, it's just all kind of things arise when you start to treat a, like the rest of society, right? Like you take these, these real world problems and you, you bring them into the rooms, you realize like, yeah, we still haven't reckoned with a lot of stuff. Like, just because we're all in here. And we're all like, anonymous does not mean that I want my, my, my gender or my sexual identity or my race or my socioeconomic status to get anonymous as well. Like I want to be known and fully seen. And I think that is part of the, go back to our talk, talk about vulnerability, right. It's part of, of it to see and know someone fully for who they are. And I just saw that a lot of groups were just like, we're just not going to talk about it. We're going to pretend like there was never an issue of, you know, with race in that we've always been opening and welcoming. Yeah. I mean, I'm, like I said, I think some groups survived. I'm really proud of the home group that I have that managed. We had a meeting the morning of the verdict in the Shovan trial. And I was fortunate to find, I mean, it's just hard to find an AA meeting with people of color in it, a lot of the time period. But I, I lived in Northeast Minneapolis, which is where sometimes you find people who aren't white and they're represented. And indigenous people also are in my group. And you know what, like, I'm really glad that we'd had the discussion like a few weeks before about whether or not race was an outside. And we decided it wasn't by the way, that was like in part, because we, their AA meetings for LGTBQ people, their AA meetings for just women, their AA meetings for teens. Like if you can acknowledge that, being a woman is a part of your identity that should get respected and is affects your sobriety, then your racial identity, gender identity, all why not? Right. Like in women's meetings, we talk a lot about trauma, you know, like, and, and trauma from sexual violence and that's a societal issue, right? So how could you, we're not, we can't leave our gender at the door. We can't leave like our, you know, how we present in society at the door. But I want to say something about that meeting, which I have to stand on. I don't have to say anything besides multiple people shared that they were worried they were going to drink that day, depending on what the verdict was. And I can not think of a better illustration of how we should be able to talk about who we are in every way in the rooms. Right. Right. Like the idea that someone would be told like, oh, I'm sorry, you can talk about whether or not getting a job would make you drink, but you can't talk about, you know, whether or not this mass social injustice will make, you know, I should make you drink whether your shrink over it. Like, so I'm also saying this way, like if you out there curious about AA, you can still find a good meeting. It Is like, I think we're going to, we're acknowledging, like there are some shitty people and shitty meetings and you're going to get told also not to bring up anything besides alcohol, which I think is bullshit in the big book. Again, I keep having, having, going back, like in the big book, there are people who use used drugs. Yeah. Like the second person, it ain't like the doctor, like, come on, There's an IV drug user. And one of the very first stories right there, like ties up in his car. Like, and times his drug use, it's actually a fascinating story for people. I mean, this was brilliant, really brilliant writing in the big book. But I, but there's another example of like where I think 12 step groups are a product of the country that they were developed in. And I think that we have these great ambitions as a country and then read these very ambitious as a society and the gritty ambitious of, you know, of the 12 step groups. But the reality is they're filled with people who are fallible and imperfect and still healing And embedded in systems of oppression. You know, like it's easy for the, for the old white guy in the meeting to be like racist and outside issue doesn't affect my life. Right. You know, like gender, as an outside issue, doesn't affect my life. That guy, nothing affects his life really. Right. Or rather, he is only the beneficiary of those structures of injustice. So he doesn't see them as affecting his life. In fact, his life has been quite effected by them in that, you know, he was an alcoholic who never lost a job. He's an alcoholic or a drug user never went to jail. Like, yeah, sorry, just I'm with you. Like I said, I'm with you. Like, I think in terms of what I, obviously, I see what you're saying and I, my F my hope is that those people who didn't have 10 solid years of sobriety are able to find the place that they can go, you know, that's, that's the fear. And that's why I was so happy that the groups that I was at least two of the groups that I was a part of managed to, like, you know, it was really funny also is like, once we kind of had the big discussion about it, it just stopped being an issue. Like, and by that, I mean, people talked about whatever, right? Like, you know, and it, yes. And, and, and people just so quickly adopted so quickly adapted to the idea that you could talk about, like your trans surgery in a group, and that yeah. That has to do with your sobriety, right? Like you could talk about racial injustice and that definitely affects your sobriety. These are not fucking outside issues, you know? So whatever a people out there just deal with it and let people be themselves. But anyway, I will say, I, I do want to say one thing. I do think that, because I just heard myself talk about like, how, like, it's like the country it was developed in. And to that point, if you want to see change, you have to be in that system to create change. Right? Like you, you have to, like, you do have a responsibility to say like, no, this is not okay. No, we will do this or that. Show me where in the book, it says that we're going to pretend like these aren't issues. All of that. I think we have a responsibility as a citizen, within recovery to, to say the hard thing to do the hard thing. So that's why I w I will always advocate for the 12 steps and believe that they have a role in my recovery journey and, you know, everyone else should give them a shot. I just do want to say, like, for some people, it just does not fit. It will, it just will not, and it will never fit. It will never fit. It'll never feel right. They will never outgrow it because it will never feel like it fits. And so for those people, there are a multitude of other pathways, and I definitely encourage everyone to find that pathway that works for them. And you know, what a great first step is, is just to try stopping drinking, like, just give it a shot. And I say that with a little bit of humor as an alcoholic, and having had people tell me that and realizing, oh, shit, like I can't stop. And that's one thing that might happen. But the other thing that might happen as you might realize some things about yourself, you know, and that's actually the most important thing. Like just, you kind of know, what do you know what I mean is like, like I have friends who aren't alcoholics, but then stopped drinking for whatever reason, because they're curious, you know, because they want to try dry January medication, you know, whatever, and then maybe realize, you know what, I, I don't like going out as much as I thought, you know, Absolutely. Or, or that alcohol is playing a different role in my life that I thought it was, you know, like maybe I have been using alcohol to deal with like my kid's homework or, you know, I'm the stresses at work. And taking that break is such a wonderful way to check in and just see, like, how is this substance playing a role in my life? I'm a big fan of dry January, dry, July sober September. I think they're all helpful in determining that With friends like these is brought to you by T1 international. 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Like there are some straight ahead, like we have a Sans TaRita, which uses ritual, alcohol, free tequila, Gavi, and lime. And so it's a nice, like, beautiful, like margarita take. We have a bourbon Shandy, which is great uses spiritless 74 bourbon. It's like this beautiful, like brilliant bourbon and a uses athletic upside Dawn beer. So it's got, you know, this kind of bourbon and beer kind of thing on with it. My favorite, my favorite drink is the first drink I ever created. And it's really easy to make at home. So that's why I want to tell you about this one is called the, I like it. I love it. Love it. As in Lisle, love it. It was a chance meeting I had with one Lyle, love it on a flight to New Mexico. So I was like, if you ever come to Sans bar, I'm going to name a drink after you. He never came to Sans bar, but it was such an impactful encounter that decided to create a drink named the, I like it. I love it. It's got a ginger beer lime and a Rosemary simple syrup. So it's kinda like a mule, but it just has the nice kind of like woodiness from the Rosemary simple syrup. And it's fantastic, really super easy to make. And again has one of those, those cocktail characteristics. So I, I really try to make sure that we, we open up our menu and that is successful to every single person, no matter what they're looking for. If they're like a serious connoisseur of great whiskeys, we got some drinks for you. But if you're just like, I want nothing that reminds me of that. We got that mule. We have a, a drink like Longhorn, which is like mango chili and seltzer. So it's like kind of like a Mingo spicy mango drink. We try to make sure that we're pretty inclusive of all kinds of flavors and tastes. I suggest that if you're interested in spirits or what's available, that you absolutely go to some of these marketplaces online, there's a lot of virtual bottle shops that you can just go to. I'm not going to name any by name, but just, just find just Google, like bottle shop online and there's five or six it'll pop up, order stuff, try it out. Be mindful that they're not going to taste exactly the same. The whole point of these beverages and spirits, especially are that they're adjacent. And just like plant-based products. Like I've never tasted a plant based burger. That's going to taste exactly like a burger, but I've tasted some really good plant based products. So it's just be mindful of that in that way. But yeah, come to Sans bar and you can try, you can try all the drinks. Thank you so much, Chris. I've been wanting to talk to you for a while. Ever since I read about Sans bar, I just really appreciate you coming on and I will stop by. I promise. Stop by, and then you can try all the, all the gins and all the like try before you buy it. I think that's the best thing about, you know, space like that. Maybe do some karaoke who knows, You know what? I totally will. I will come. When's your next karaoke night. I think it's the first week in this, eh, I'll get back to you. I got, but I'm going to hold it And we'll post video. I probably put up on social total eclipse of the heart. Ooh, nice. Nice. Pretty good one. Yeah. Oh, and also, I mean, I'm an eighties girl. I need a hero. Another one. Just classic photo soundtrack. Basically. You could probably. Yeah. So I'll do I think if, if we can find on the, I need a hero, we'll do that. How about that? We'll do it. All right. Thanks again for coming on the show. Thanks so much for having me on a big, thanks to Chris Marshall. If you're ever in Austin, be sure to check out Stan's bar and follow him on Instagram to find the pop-up events. He hosts around the country. He is at sands underscore bar. The show is a product of crooked media. Leslie Martin is our producer and Patrick and Tinetti is our audio editor. Please take care of yourselves.