0:04

Hello everybody, and welcome

0:06

back to the Psychology of Your

0:08

Twenties, the podcast where

0:10

we talk through some of the big life changes

0:13

and transitions of our twenties

0:16

and what they mean for our psychology.

0:23

Today is International Women's Day, and I thought

0:25

what better way to celebrate than to bring my

0:27

mum on the show to discuss

0:29

motherhood, feminism, being a

0:31

leader, a successful woman in a

0:33

male dominated industry, all of the

0:36

above. She is a pretty cool lady

0:38

and my personal hero. I know that

0:40

sounds cliche, but I am super

0:42

lucky to have had such a wonderful role model

0:44

who has a lot of wisdom to share, and

0:46

I thought you guys could benefit from some

0:49

of that wisdom as well. This episode

0:51

is part of Iheart's International Women's

0:53

Day initiative called Women Take the Mic.

0:56

You can find a bunch of other interviews

0:58

just like this one by so Women

1:01

Take the Mic wherever you get your podcasts.

1:04

Let's jump into the interview.

1:10

Hello everybody, Welcome back to the

1:12

show. Welcome back to the podcast, new

1:15

listeners, old listeners, wherever you are in the world,

1:17

it is so great to have you here. Back for another episode

1:20

as we break down the psychology of our twenties.

1:23

Today, we're going to be doing something a little bit

1:25

different. I know I say that every guest

1:27

is my favorite, but honestly,

1:29

this one I think kind of has to take

1:32

the cake by obligation because

1:34

they are blood. I thought, it's

1:36

International Women's Day today. Who better to

1:38

talk to who is more

1:41

my hero than my own mother? So

1:43

today I'm bringing on my mum to

1:46

come and have a chat with me as we talk

1:48

about mother daughter dynamics,

1:51

motherhood, being a successful woman

1:53

in business as she is, and

1:56

feminism and all the good things that come

1:58

with it. So, hey, Mom, how

2:00

you going? Hey Jim, you were saying

2:02

to me that you were nervous before this.

2:04

I'm a bit nervous. Why Ah,

2:07

because I probably haven't

2:09

been well.

2:10

I haven't been interviewed by you before, and

2:13

it's a different dynamic.

2:15

And of course you know I want to do well by

2:17

you.

2:17

Oh my god, you want to impress the listeners.

2:19

Well, I just I don't want to let you down. I

2:21

don't.

2:22

I don't want to come across as not

2:24

being worthy of your wonderful pod.

2:26

Oh that's okay. I will defend you to the death. If

2:28

anyone says anything, I'll be like, that's

2:31

my mother you're talking about. So block deleted.

2:34

I honestly think this will be a great chat because we

2:36

have a good relationship both

2:38

as a mother and daughter and as kind

2:41

of friends as well.

2:42

Yeah me too, I'm looking I'm looking forward to it.

2:44

It's just it's a different dynamic for me.

2:47

Yeah, I'm in charge. Yeah, you're in my

2:49

turf.

2:49

I can't hang up.

2:50

You can't hang up with blood related So

2:53

I wanted to bring you on because obviously it's International

2:56

Woman's Day, and I was thinking,

2:58

let's do a special episode this, Let's do an

3:00

episode talking about what

3:03

it means to be a woman, to

3:05

identify as a woman, and part of what

3:08

comes with that is also like a

3:10

discussion around like our relationship

3:13

with our mothers and a relationship

3:15

with our parents and all

3:17

these other things. How like our childhood informs

3:20

the women that we grow up to be. And

3:23

I thought that we could do a little deep dive into

3:26

what it was like for you to become my

3:28

mom. Because I'm the oldest daughter, you're

3:31

also the oldest daughter, and just

3:33

like what I was like as a child, what it

3:35

was like becoming a mother, like I said, and

3:37

then what it's like to run

3:39

a business basically, which you do well.

3:42

You're a CEO.

3:43

So that's like, well, certainly

3:45

plenty to talk about.

3:47

Yeah, I'm going to start with a hard hitting question.

3:49

Okay, go for it, because I wanted to know

3:51

this as well. What was I like as a child?

3:53

Do you remember? Be

3:56

embarrassed if you don't know.

3:57

The funny thing is you really

3:59

do remember.

4:00

And I suspect that there's I

4:03

need to be a bit careful because of course

4:05

memories change over time, and you

4:07

think you remember certain things. I'm sure you remember

4:10

some things differently to the way I remember them.

4:12

We can get to that. But

4:14

actually, the really.

4:15

Interesting thing is when I sort of think back on you and

4:17

your sisters, I've got really clear memories

4:19

of the days each of you were

4:21

born, my sort of very

4:24

clear first impressions of each

4:26

of you, and and

4:28

it was it's funny.

4:29

You're all different.

4:31

I remember, so what I remember of you the day you

4:33

were born, and by the way you had to

4:35

come in, you know, with the bang. You were

4:38

an emergency as a child.

4:40

So so there was that, There

4:43

was that.

4:45

But the thing I remember was in

4:47

amongst all of this sort of calm chaos,

4:49

was was you sort of sort

4:51

of coming out with

4:53

these big eyes, just sort of slowly

4:56

blinking at the world as if to say, you know, where

4:58

am I?

4:59

What? What if I come to?

5:00

But not not crying so much

5:02

and just sort of, you know, trying to sort of focus

5:04

straight out of the gate, trying to focus on what was around

5:07

you and trying to make sense of it is what it felt.

5:09

Like, Oh I can't

5:11

remember that.

5:12

But yeah, and then you

5:14

know you were quiet as as a

5:16

little baby for the first week or so, but

5:19

that changed.

5:20

But the other thing too, is that I think.

5:22

The other really strong kind

5:24

of recollection for me was that very

5:26

early on you realize that your kids come

5:29

out with their own personalities.

5:31

And because I too had

5:33

done a bit of psychology in my time, I think

5:35

there's that whole nature versus nurture

5:37

sort of thing that goes through, and

5:40

I think you start off thinking, you, you know, you're going

5:42

to be this amazing.

5:43

Parent and it's all going to be nurture.

5:46

But you know, probably because you are a first

5:48

it was a pretty overwhelming kind of sense of,

5:50

oh, this little person has come out

5:53

you know, with a sent with their own sense

5:55

of who they are, their own personality, and

5:58

then.

5:59

What were you like as a kid. I've you know, you

6:02

were strong minded.

6:04

Oh that hasn't changed much.

6:05

I know it hasn't, but you were.

6:07

You really had strong views

6:09

even as a youngster. But

6:11

you were happy and as

6:14

the first child. For us, the biggest thing was

6:16

you were a sleeper. And my GOLLI

6:18

gosh, we love that.

6:20

That's so cute. I love that you said I

6:22

came out and I was quiet for the first week, and

6:25

the irony being now I literally talk

6:27

on the internet for my job,

6:29

which is so funny. And I am a bit of a yapper

6:32

obviously. I love a yar. I love

6:34

a yar.

6:34

You were just a quiet little Mulu

6:36

when you were just a wee little

6:38

baby.

6:39

And I was your favorite obviously for the first five

6:41

years at least.

6:42

Well you as about

6:45

and I say you're a favorite oldest daughter.

6:47

Yeah, that's so diplomatic. I still think that

6:49

you'll have a favorite. You just can't say. And

6:52

I think that I'm yours, hopefully my younger

6:54

sisters, hopefully Elli and Hannah a listening.

6:57

Yeah, well I'm going to assume they are.

6:59

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.

7:01

So this is the thing. I feel like, how

7:03

old were you when you had me, you were thirty

7:05

two, right, thirty three? Thirty

7:08

three? Okay, so you were like well

7:10

and well into your thirties, but you were like

7:13

my age, like nine years

7:15

older than I am now.

7:16

Yep.

7:17

And that's like insane to me to think that I would

7:19

be ready to have a child in

7:22

nine years, like, let

7:24

alone in like fifteen. What was

7:26

like the biggest lesson you learned having children?

7:28

Did you actually always want children even

7:31

when you were younger.

7:32

Yeah, I always wanted kids

7:34

even when I was younger. You

7:37

know, it's interesting because like thirty three

7:39

is you know, it's not young to be having kids.

7:42

Yeah, in the spirit of turtle frankness,

7:44

you know, this took us a while to

7:47

get pregnant with you.

7:49

I don't need the Internet to know that.

7:51

Well, but it's you know, and it's just it

7:53

is one of those things that yeah,

7:56

we you know, we were keen to have kids.

7:58

You know, life, you find your partners

8:00

at whatever age. Other things

8:03

kind of happen, and you know,

8:05

you I think one of the one

8:07

of the things that I was thinking about and in terms of

8:09

this conversation, was how people think

8:11

about when to have kids.

8:12

And you know, for me, it was when

8:15

I met.

8:16

Your dad, and you know, we went overseas

8:19

and did some things and then came

8:21

home to Australia and we're keen to start a

8:23

family, and you know, we feel

8:26

blessed to have three kids.

8:27

But it's not always a straight line. I

8:29

definitely felt.

8:31

Very ready to be having kids, but it

8:33

comes with a lot of you know a lot of ups

8:35

and downs too, and things that you

8:37

don't know what happens through pregnancies and whatever,

8:40

and.

8:41

So yeah, we're you know, was

8:43

I ready? I was?

8:44

But then in some ways, I guess you're never

8:46

ready because you never know what's going to happen.

8:49

And that's part of the challenge,

8:51

is the uncertainty of it all.

8:53

Was it harder when we were younger

8:55

or is it harder now now that we're

8:57

because we're a lot of us were I flew

9:00

the nest pretty young. I left tar when

9:02

I was like seventeen. But Ellie

9:05

and Hannah are like getting to the point where they're about

9:07

to leave. Has been that

9:09

Has that been difficult? Being like, oh am I

9:12

no longer having that role that you've had for twenty

9:14

four years.

9:15

I think it's one of the other things you do learn

9:17

when you have kids.

9:18

And maybe I think about this

9:20

because you know, you know, I was a working

9:23

mum for big chunks

9:25

of you know, your younger

9:27

life, and your sisters as well, and

9:30

particularly you know, when you were in primary

9:32

school, and I think there's a sense

9:34

that when kids are really young, they really need their parents,

9:37

and they do for certain things.

9:38

But you know, I found when

9:41

you.

9:41

Were in high school and your sisters as

9:43

they've gotten older, that you

9:45

continue to need your parents, but in

9:47

different ways and for different things, and that

9:50

sense changes. But I kind

9:52

of thought that, you know, there was times

9:54

when you guys were in high school, for

9:56

instance, where you needed your

9:59

parents around just as much as you did when we

10:01

were in primary school. And so I

10:03

think that's maybe one of the I don't know if

10:06

myths is the right word, but there's so much focus

10:08

on, you know, being there for kids when they're

10:10

younger, and actually I think the

10:12

pressure is there all the way through and just

10:14

being clear about that and recognizing

10:17

you have to try to find a way to be

10:19

there for your kids no matter what else is going on.

10:21

It's just one of the you know, one of

10:23

the challenges but also one of the great

10:26

joys of being a parent when when you feel

10:29

like you are doing that and hopefully

10:31

your kids, I think you're doing

10:33

that well.

10:35

It's so interesting because I feel like for

10:38

a lot of my teenagers, I didn't

10:40

really need you, well at least I thought

10:42

I didn't need you. And then as soon as

10:45

I went to university, and then actually like probably

10:47

the second year of university, like the first year,

10:49

I really was like I don't need my parents, Like

10:51

I am a big girl, I am

10:54

an adult now I live independently.

10:56

And then it was like, oh, you

10:58

get older, and it's like reversal and

11:00

you're like, oh my gosh, I really need my mom

11:03

and I'm like, I really like it's kind of

11:05

coming back to the nest, Like it's such a

11:07

big thing in your twenties that you fly the nest

11:09

and you go off and you do your own thing. But then

11:11

I think that the further along on that journey,

11:14

the more you're like, actually, I want to come home, like

11:16

and I want to see my parents and I want to call

11:18

my parents. And I remember it was like

11:21

my first like big heartbreak when I was at Uni

11:24

that I was like suddenly so much

11:26

more reliant on you guys. In a way that I didn't feel

11:29

like I had been since I was

11:31

a kid.

11:32

Because I mean, I think you know,

11:35

I've seen it in your sisters and well as well.

11:39

Of course, you go through phases of where you're.

11:41

Really independence is really important to you,

11:44

and it's it's the actual independence,

11:46

and I think it's the perception of independence as

11:48

well. But I

11:51

think you know, from my perspective,

11:53

just being around sometimes is important

11:56

then, so, you know,

11:58

because I think it allows you to sort of go often

12:01

and live your life, but knowing that

12:03

if you need it, it's there, and even if you don't necessarily

12:05

acknowledge it, I think there's

12:07

a sense that you know, you your

12:09

parents can provide a bit of a foundation and

12:12

you know if you do need to come back or need

12:14

support, we're there. But it's you know,

12:17

the flip side is it's it's fantastic as a parent

12:19

to see your kids going off and doing that. And

12:22

then yeah, hopefully at different

12:24

stages the perception or whatever of

12:26

that independence becomes less important and you and

12:28

that's the whole thing about your relationship

12:31

kind of ebbs and flows and evolves, and it's

12:33

yeah, it's a nice thing.

12:35

What's been the hardest part

12:37

about being a mother.

12:39

Yeah, it's a good question.

12:40

I mean, I think in all honesty, it's

12:44

the sort of vulnerability and the uncertainty

12:46

of it.

12:48

Like you just, you

12:51

know, with a partner, there's an element of

12:53

it.

12:53

But when you you know, when you have kids

12:55

and you just love them so much and care

12:57

for them so much, it's that you

12:59

know what them go out into the world, and

13:01

the equal measure of wanting them to be independent

13:05

and excited and exploring

13:07

the world and doing everything that you did, but you

13:11

know, also sort of probably having a

13:13

greater understanding of all the things that can go

13:15

wrong, and just that balance of.

13:18

Just you know, there's

13:20

always just that little bit of fear.

13:22

You never want harm or sadness or anything to come

13:24

to your kids, but that's not the way they can live their

13:26

lives. So it's just that uncertainty, and it's you

13:28

know, it brings great excitement

13:31

and emotion and joy, but

13:33

every now and then, you know you're

13:35

white knuckling in a bit.

13:37

Really. It's so interesting because I even

13:39

feel that way towards Hannah and Ellie, like my sisters,

13:42

where Ellie is going to UNI,

13:44

and I think about what my first two years of UNI

13:46

are like, and I want her to have

13:48

those experiences, but I also know

13:51

like how chaotic and sometimes awful

13:53

they were, and I'm like, maybe

13:55

I'll just protect you from them, Like maybe

13:57

you could just be a little girl, little a little

14:00

maybe for a little bit longer and like not have those

14:03

that independence. And I'm like, I feel

14:05

that towards my sister. I can't imagine what

14:07

that would feel like as a mother, being

14:09

like I gave birth to this child

14:12

who was now like doing like off

14:14

in the world, and I like don't know where

14:16

they are, don't know what they're doing at all times.

14:19

What was like an experience where you said you'd be like white

14:21

knuckling.

14:21

It, Oh, it's you know this

14:24

thing, Well, I don't know. You go overseas and

14:27

you know, I'm.

14:28

Thinking about that time I was in ampsinem and I called

14:30

you and was like I'm dying possibly.

14:34

And I wasn't even like on anything. I

14:37

wasn't I know the connotations of like being an ampsinam.

14:39

I was just like really tired, and

14:41

I was like, I'm dying. I've decided

14:44

like my anxiety and I called you guys

14:46

like three am well.

14:47

And it was it was the you

14:49

know it was that like, maybe

14:51

white.

14:52

Knuckling is the wrong way to describe

14:54

it, but there is a certain sense

14:56

that when your phone rings in the middle of the night. You

14:58

know, once you've kids,

15:00

that that has a certain you

15:02

leap to. You can leap to the wrong conclusion and

15:05

so your heart so it's racing. You

15:08

calm yourself down, but then you know there

15:10

was an element of it would have been nice if you'd phone

15:12

the next day to remind us that you're okay.

15:15

No, no, that's not how it works. I

15:18

was too, So I was eighteen and selfish. I wasn't

15:20

gonna let you guys know I was okay.

15:23

But but the other thing, too, is

15:25

just the emotional

15:27

sort of stuff and the emotional hurt. And so that's

15:29

why, you know, white knuckling is not the right term.

15:31

But you do expose yourself to feeling

15:34

it. You know, you've experienced it yourself, but then

15:36

to watch other people who you care about

15:38

go through some of that stuff, which is just it's just

15:40

life, but you know it's

15:43

it's not it's not easy to see other

15:45

people go through that and to be sad or

15:48

to be you know, to be hursh and in

15:50

some ways really the emotional stuff

15:52

is harder than you know, going to get

15:54

the stitches or whatever else.

15:57

And you know, we've had conversations about

15:59

this that you know, we try

16:01

to do the right thing. We tried to raise

16:03

each of you as independent people

16:07

who could make their own decisions and who were resilient

16:09

to those challenges. And sometimes

16:11

it meant, you know, letting

16:14

you find your way a bit. And I'm

16:16

sure that felt hard and it

16:19

was hard to watch and experience

16:21

as well, but you've got to, you

16:24

know, it's always trying to walk that line

16:26

of doing things

16:28

that you know, trying to be the parent

16:30

that sets you up for success in

16:32

your future, which sometimes

16:35

you know comes across, as you know, not

16:38

necessarily being the kindest or most

16:41

protective parent at different stages when

16:43

you're younger.

16:44

I know exactly what you're referring to. And I remember

16:47

being in primary school and all

16:49

of the people, all of my friends had these

16:51

like helicopter parents who

16:53

had a drop of the heart would.

16:54

Be there to

16:56

fix.

16:57

Things for them, and you guys were not those parents.

17:00

You were like, oh, you're having problems with school, great,

17:02

go and talk to your teacher, deal with it, like not

17:05

that callous You won't like deal with

17:07

it, like get out of our face, we don't

17:09

want to hear from you. But it was like that thing,

17:11

right, did have a point where I was like, gosh, I wish

17:13

that my mom was just like a bit more angry on

17:16

my behalf. And I'm sure you were, but you were like

17:19

and now I'm super grateful

17:21

for the fact that you made

17:23

me be a problem solver and independent because

17:25

it's I think a big part of my personality.

17:28

But that was definitely times where I was like, gosh,

17:31

I do just want my mom to scream at someone for me.

17:33

Well, there were times when can I

17:35

just say that little bit of independence which usually

17:38

your dad let you exercise more than me. There

17:41

were moments when I similarly went to pick you

17:43

up from childcare and thought what is she

17:45

wearing or

17:47

what is she doing? And then packing

17:49

your own lunch that had its highs and lows as.

17:51

Well, Oh yeah, what was what? Did

17:53

I pack? Junk food?

17:55

Well? Just yeah, fair few crackers.

17:58

Yeah, dah, I was growing girl,

18:01

I was hungry. I was sharing them. I don't

18:03

know what. So

18:06

this is like a hot, hot question,

18:08

but you have three daughters, did

18:10

you ever want a son?

18:13

Oh?

18:14

Yeah, so interesting, isn't it.

18:17

Look I think you're always

18:20

I think you always sort of think, oh, you know, one

18:22

of each, you know, at least like having

18:25

one of each in the family, not necessarily just

18:27

two kids.

18:28

But yeah, I think you do. But can I

18:30

be really honest.

18:30

And say, well, for starters, I

18:33

reckon With every one of my pregnancies, at

18:35

least at one stage someone told

18:37

me that I was having a boy, and

18:40

no one ever told me I was having girls. But like

18:42

with you, we were walking down the street in Fitzroy

18:45

one morning and this Italian NNA

18:47

came from across the street, like walked, you

18:49

know, one hundred meters from across the street, came up

18:52

to me and said.

18:52

It's a boy. So that

18:54

was pretty funny.

18:56

And when I was pregnant with Hannah,

18:58

I definitely thought she was a

19:00

boy, just because she behaves so

19:02

differently in the womb

19:05

to the rest of you, because

19:07

she was a little pocket rocket in there. But

19:11

so after you, and like

19:14

after you and Ellie, I have to say my

19:16

greatest fear was that I was going to have a boy,

19:19

because I was like, okay, I've got two girls

19:21

now I think I understand them, and

19:25

a boy is just gonna like throw me off

19:27

now, but

19:29

I.

19:29

Think it's this is going to sound like

19:31

such a cliche, but.

19:34

And in all honesty, because after you were born, like

19:37

you know, the whole the emergency sees a thing was

19:39

a moment and at the time

19:41

it was, you know, our doctor was fantastic.

19:44

But when I look back, I thought, wow, that was a moment,

19:47

and from then on you do just sort of think, well,

19:50

I'm just I just feel blessed to have healthy

19:52

kids, you know.

19:54

So that's the truth of it.

19:57

So I you didn't know what gender, did

19:59

you? Was it a all three?

20:01

Yeah?

20:01

No, way, I didn't know that. Yeah, oh

20:05

that's so cute.

20:06

But also the funny thing is that each time around

20:09

we had three names for boys, but only

20:11

one name for a girl.

20:13

So they knew someone in the someone in

20:15

the universe knew. So that's

20:18

actually really interesting. I had no idea. But I do also

20:20

think you didn't have sons, but you raised us like sons.

20:23

I've said this since I was

20:25

like younger. I'm like, you guys raised us

20:27

like boys in a very like traditional

20:29

stereotypical way that people raise children

20:32

like boys. Just letting us get

20:34

into so much mischief. We

20:36

were always dirty. I'm pretty sure

20:38

I only wore boys clothes for a long time.

20:40

Buzz light your T shirt.

20:41

Buzz light your outfits, honey, don't just say

20:44

T shirts. You were the full kitten kaboodle.

20:46

Yeah. Well I was a super fan.

20:48

I was.

20:48

I was a stan I loved that

20:51

man.

20:51

Yea.

20:53

But yeah, I just feel like there were so many ways

20:55

that you guys kind of raised us without like

20:57

an idea of gender. Like I maybe I'm

20:59

just being remembering

21:01

things that I want to remember them, but I don't remember

21:03

having dolls. I think

21:05

also was the fact that maybe, like the general

21:08

you're lying now, come on, really,

21:10

what doll did I have?

21:11

Oh?

21:12

My goodness, come on? What

21:14

did you used to do to your barbies?

21:17

Oh? I made weird Barbie.

21:19

I used to cuddle the hair off. Yeah, and their

21:21

fingers as well. I went the astra mark definitely.

21:23

I don't remember the fingers, but you definitely were queen

21:25

of the Barbie haircut.

21:26

These were punk rocker barbies.

21:29

Yeah.

21:30

I think one of the things too, that I've come to really

21:33

appreciate, and you know, you make the

21:35

decisions you do in terms of work

21:37

and life and all the rest of it. But I've

21:40

really come to the view that the

21:44

fact that your dad's

21:47

you know, spent a lot of time at home with each

21:49

of you, and it

21:51

was very clear for you, I think from

21:53

my perspective, and I think it's because there were

21:56

fewer men in the playground at the time, but

21:59

having a

22:01

father at homes, he'd

22:03

let you take more risks, There's no doubt about

22:05

it. And he was much more comfortable

22:07

with that. And I can there were so many times

22:09

when I talk about white knuckling, actually watching

22:12

you race to the corner of

22:14

the footpath on your bike every

22:17

time, as you just scream down the street

22:19

on your bike, I just used to think, oh my gosh,

22:21

I hope she stops in time.

22:23

And it's the same for all of yours, you know, each

22:25

of your sisters.

22:26

But you know, Bart was just he

22:28

let you guys, you know, jump and run and climb,

22:31

and you know he was famous in the

22:34

I mean I remember coming around the corner

22:36

of the playground at the school and seeing all of

22:38

the mums kind of standing in a semi circle

22:40

with their mouths open, and I knew what was going

22:42

on, and it was Bart standing there

22:44

throwing kids in the air, and they had this kind

22:46

of half happy, half terrified

22:49

look on their face, and it just so

22:51

explains the difference of you

22:54

know, I think how you guys were raised.

22:56

Well, it's true because dad was a stay at

22:58

home dad for our childhood.

23:00

I knew that was a period where you were you stayed

23:03

at home but you were still working. But he

23:05

was like a full stay at home dad. And

23:07

I know I'm talking about you, but

23:10

that there was definitely moments that I remember

23:12

being a kid where he faced a lot

23:14

of discrimination for that, whilst you probably

23:17

also face a lot of discrimination for being a working

23:19

mum. Like neither of you had it easy

23:21

to kind of subvert the gender norms. The one

23:23

I always think of is the time that

23:25

that woman wouldn't

23:28

let her daughter come over because she thought he

23:30

was a sex offender or something like

23:32

that.

23:33

It was someone who yeah, did I

23:36

won't repeat it because it was illegal. It

23:38

was illegal, Yeah, and it was, but yeah,

23:41

he faced that. It was Yeah, he faced

23:44

that.

23:44

But equally, I'm not sure if you remember

23:46

this, It was this was when I went to when

23:49

I just started this period, so there's about five

23:51

years when I was predominantly the stay at

23:53

home parent. You

23:55

were in high school by then, but your sisters

23:58

were in primary school. And

24:00

I remember going to a birthday

24:02

party that one of Ellie's friends

24:04

was having, and we were at that indoor playground

24:07

and I arrived to the party and

24:09

the woman who was hosting it, you know, sort

24:12

of said to me, oh, you know, who's

24:14

who's your child?

24:15

And I said Ellie

24:17

And she said well, she goes,

24:19

oh, are you are

24:22

you Bat's wife?

24:24

And I said yes and

24:26

she said oh, And all along I

24:28

just thought he was this lovely single dad.

24:31

Oh my gosh, And I just thought embarrassing

24:33

for her.

24:33

Oh, it's just it was just really brutal.

24:35

And I thought, what and what do I think

24:38

about all your mums who come

24:40

and pick your kids up? And so it just

24:42

it'spun both ways.

24:43

Yeah, it really did.

24:45

Yeah, but I'm glad that it happened that way because I feel

24:47

like we've got a really unique childhood

24:50

and now it's so much more common. But

24:52

back then, like it was so weird, like

24:55

early early two thousands to see like a

24:57

stay at home dad. It was.

24:59

It was.

25:00

It was a tough gig, it was, and both ways, like

25:02

it was very hard for him, very

25:05

lonely, to be honest, but

25:08

and look, I don't you know, I'm not trying

25:10

to say it was better or words for either of us,

25:12

but it was.

25:13

It was equally frustrating.

25:14

If you'd rock up in the school yard, you

25:16

know, I'd drop you off at school, and I'd be

25:18

in a suit and on

25:21

my way to work, and people would stop and

25:23

ask me if I was coming to the book reading at eleven

25:25

thirty. And you know, in

25:27

contrast that the dads who were dropping off in their

25:29

suits, no one expect everyone knew where they were

25:31

going. They were all going to work, and they didn't get They

25:34

got praise for making time to drop their kids

25:36

off, and they weren't asked, you

25:38

know, are you going.

25:39

To stay longer?

25:40

And it sounds like a small thing, but there was always

25:42

a bit of It.

25:43

Was hard not to feel a little bit of guilt.

25:46

Yeah, or like feel like they're being like, oh,

25:49

you're you're like a failure as a mother

25:51

because you're not sticking around and win.

25:53

Because I haven't. I haven't made the time for

25:55

that. It was it just felt like that was

25:57

the message.

25:58

Here's the thing. I don't remember single book reading,

26:02

so I don't think it mattered that you

26:04

weren't there. You were there for the important things.

26:06

Yeah, well I think I hope that that's the case.

26:09

But definitely, regardless, you have to make

26:12

the you make the decisions that have to work

26:14

for you know, your family, and it's

26:16

a combination of a whole bunch of things, and it's you

26:19

know, you've got to have income and you

26:21

know, ideally you have a house to live in and

26:24

financial security and you know you've got

26:26

to you just make those choices and they're not set

26:28

and forget you kind of ebb and flow with that. But

26:31

I think the hard the hard part,

26:33

and the thing you probably get a bit more perspective on when

26:35

you get a bit older, is that those opinions don't

26:38

really matter, And yeah,

26:40

you just got to You've got to glide past them a little bit

26:42

and know that you're making the best decisions

26:44

that you can, you know, and there's

26:47

no you're never going to do it perfectly.

26:49

Well, well, that kind of leads to

26:51

my next question. Do you

26:53

think you made any mistakes? Would you do anything

26:55

differently?

26:58

Did we make mistakes? One hundred and one mistakes?

27:00

Yeah, I name a couple. I want something to blame

27:02

you about I want something to hold over your head.

27:04

Well, there's there's there's I

27:07

don't know, there's lots of little things.

27:08

You go back and you you know, partly you

27:11

say things or you phrase something in a particular way,

27:13

and you know, you don't think.

27:15

About it, but it lands, it gets hurt in a particular

27:17

way.

27:18

And and

27:20

you know when your kids recount things back

27:22

to you, you didn't mean it that

27:24

way, or you didn't the context, you saw the context

27:26

differently. There's there's one hundred and one little things

27:29

like that, and you

27:31

know, all sorts of stuff. And I don't look

27:34

back and think that there's one major

27:37

thing that we did.

27:40

You know, we.

27:42

But you know that you

27:44

didn't get everything right. And

27:46

whether it was what you did or the tone that you

27:48

did it with in the time, you just know

27:51

that. But would you do anything differently?

27:54

I think that's a hard I mean, in some ways, I think it's a

27:56

hard question or even a harsh question,

27:58

because you know, you

28:01

do the best that you can at the time,

28:03

and you know, I think one thing that's

28:06

very hard on parents, if I'm honest, is that

28:09

there's so much else going on. There's

28:12

so much other context that

28:14

your kids don't know about, nor

28:17

should they, but it does

28:20

mean that sometimes, you

28:22

know, you come home from work, there's been a lot of stuff

28:24

going down. There's a lot of stress or

28:26

anxiety related to other things that you don't necessarily

28:28

want to share with your kids, but it does inform

28:31

some of the decisions you make or how you communicate

28:34

them. And at the time,

28:36

you know, I don't think your kids appreciate it.

28:38

When you grow up, I think you do.

28:40

But yeah, that's all in the

28:42

mix. On a lighter note,

28:45

I'll give you an example. Yeah,

28:48

Ellie teases me all the time because

28:51

I'm not sure if you remember this, but you know, I

28:53

used to sing songs to you guys when

28:56

I was putting you to bed, and Ellie

28:59

in particular, always just wanted to sing along.

29:02

She's so cute.

29:04

She's still like that, but I just wanted to I

29:06

just wanted to go to sleep. And so she

29:08

teases me now about the fact that I would be quite

29:10

firm on the like, no, you're not

29:12

to.

29:13

Sing the songs with me, And she says, you're

29:15

singing all.

29:15

These cute songs and all I wanted to do was sing along,

29:17

But you would say no, you've got to go to bed now,

29:20

So maybe.

29:21

I'm so cute. Maybe on reflection, I would have

29:23

done that differently.

29:25

That's so cute because it's

29:27

like, I forget that although we each

29:29

grew up together, I'd never

29:32

heard that, like we had such different memories

29:34

of like our interactions with you.

29:36

That's so cute.

29:37

Oh my god, she's adorable.

29:39

But I'm going to say she also well,

29:42

I mean, so here's the other thing.

29:43

So I'm trying to get her to sleep, because Hannah,

29:46

of course didn't sleep at all. And

29:49

so when she's recounting these stories,

29:51

like we're in year one of a five

29:53

year stage of you know, youngest

29:56

daughter not sleeping so many nights.

30:00

I'm going to ask you a few more questions around

30:02

motherhood. And I want to ask whether

30:04

you think that you were a feminist

30:07

mother. Not just a feminist,

30:09

but were you a feminist mother.

30:11

So this is a

30:14

really interesting question for me because

30:17

for a couple of reasons. One because I actually think

30:19

I've become more of a feminist as I've

30:21

gotten older, and if I think about

30:23

it in the context of not

30:26

just being someone who believes in

30:29

equal rights and lives that way and

30:31

hopefully raises their girls that way, and I'll come

30:33

back to it, but.

30:35

I've probably i'd probably be a

30:37

bit.

30:37

Critical of me in terms of

30:40

being a really

30:42

strong advocate for

30:44

other women. So I

30:46

think in the way I lived, in the things I did.

30:48

But if I think about, you know, feminist

30:51

feminist, being an advocate and

30:53

a really strong advocate for all women,

30:57

I'm not sure i'd give myself a huge score

30:59

on that, to be honest. So I'd look back and think I could

31:01

have done more or have been more vocal and

31:03

in different circumstances.

31:06

But in terms of how I raised

31:09

being a feminist mother, yeah, I think so. And

31:12

yeah, and I think, you

31:14

know, in terms of being an advocate for

31:17

each of you, both

31:19

as individuals but also as girls

31:22

and young women, Yeah, I do.

31:24

I do think so.

31:26

Yeah, I would say so as well. I do think that

31:28

like this, but the brand of feminism

31:30

that we had when we were younger was very white feminism.

31:33

But I think also that was like just

31:36

what was there at the time.

31:40

Like I always think about like Hillary Clinton as

31:43

that as like an example, but

31:46

I also think that, like it's

31:49

just like the process of unlearning

31:51

your white feminism in a way, especially

31:54

like where we lived, you know, we lived

31:56

in like in Australia,

31:58

in inner city Australia,

32:01

where like the discussions about

32:03

like intersectionality weren't being had

32:05

back in like two thousand, like the

32:08

early twenty tens. But

32:11

now I feel like you're such a good example. Also,

32:14

I feel like you're not giving yourself enough credit

32:16

there, Like you being

32:18

an advocate. I think you did a lot more than

32:21

most other people. Think about all your friends, Like

32:23

you have so many strong female friends who you

32:25

advocate for in so

32:27

many ways.

32:28

Yeah, look, I appreciate that I do.

32:29

There's just some things I've learned on the way through and

32:32

some things in leadership roles where

32:35

if I was being honest, you know, I think I

32:37

could have done more and maybe I came late to some

32:39

of the things that I should have been,

32:42

you know, doing more of and being much more

32:44

supportive and more

32:47

demonstrably supportive I think,

32:49

and just recognizing the importance of that over

32:53

demonstration of being

32:56

a champion or supporter of people,

32:59

not having it be sort of implied or

33:01

assumed.

33:03

M M. How do you

33:05

think that our relationship has changed

33:07

as I've become an adult? Do

33:10

you think we've gotten closer?

33:12

Yeah?

33:12

No, I definitely think so. But I think it's one of those

33:14

things that, yeah,

33:19

I don't know, like it's I

33:21

think you're it's just a different type of closeness,

33:24

right, Like there's maybe

33:27

a weird word, but there's an intimacy when you're

33:29

with your kids when you're younger, and a closeness

33:31

and a and a dependency that

33:33

that's you know, that's really close,

33:36

right, and and a lot of

33:38

fun in that and that you

33:40

know, that fun piece is a closeness

33:43

that's pretty unique to that younger

33:45

state when your kids are younger, and it's it's

33:47

just lovely. But you

33:49

know, as your kids grow up and certainly with you,

33:52

you know, being able to have grown up conversations

33:54

and you know what I think it is is being

33:57

able to.

34:00

Experience and appreciate that respect. And

34:04

you know, there's not a.

34:05

Lot of people that you go through life with where

34:07

you just really look at them and think, I really.

34:09

Respect who you are as a person, and

34:12

well.

34:13

And I've got you know, I feel

34:15

lucky to have a lot of really good friends who

34:18

I do really respect, but you

34:20

know, there's not that many people. And anyway,

34:23

it's fun to sort of have been a part

34:25

of that and to have seen you grow up

34:27

and then to have so much respect and appreciation

34:29

and admiration for what you've done. And I

34:31

guess, to be honest, if I'm being a little bit egotistical,

34:34

you sort of feel like you're a little bit.

34:35

Of part of that and it's

34:37

very special.

34:39

I do like to give you guys a lot of credit. I will

34:41

say, Oh.

34:42

I don't like I don't want too much. It's just it's

34:44

just that little bit where you sort of like every now and then,

34:47

ah, yeah, she's mine.

34:51

I think Dad does it more than you do. No

34:54

comment diplomatic.

34:57

Do you find it weird when you

35:00

know when I was like in my as I got

35:02

into my early twenties, did you find it weird when I would

35:04

talk about my relationships or

35:07

like sex or anything like that.

35:09

Was that weird? Because

35:11

I feel like there was a point where it kind

35:13

of yeah, I don't know,

35:15

I was like, am I treating my mom more like my

35:18

friend or like my mom?

35:20

Yeah? I didn't find it weird.

35:22

I mean occasionally there

35:25

was an early podcast that I'm

35:27

not sure if you remember this, but you said something along the

35:29

lines of, oh, my parents might be listening, and

35:32

I jokingly was saying, yeah, I rang

35:34

you up and said yes, I'm listening, which you

35:36

know, of course was not contemporary, but nonetheless,

35:39

so every now and then there's maybe a bit, you

35:41

know, too much information. I

35:45

think the hardest part is that I

35:48

was probably I'm very close

35:50

to my mum, your grandma, you know that.

35:53

And we probably share more information now.

35:55

But when I was younger, so it was me

35:57

and my brother, but I had a step brother and a stepsister

35:59

and that sort of mixed marriage, and you

36:02

know, my mum and my stepfather

36:05

were sort of off, kind

36:07

of building their own life together, and the

36:09

easiest thing for me to do was just you

36:12

know, play my cards close to my chest.

36:15

So I didn't share a lot of information.

36:18

It wasn't really letting anyone know what

36:20

I was up to live in my own life. And

36:22

like you, I was at UNI when I was

36:24

seventeen and so and

36:26

then you know, my parents moved into State, so I was,

36:29

like you, really independent, but in

36:32

a kind of flip scenario, if you like. And

36:34

so I probably wasn't sharing as much as information,

36:37

and you know, I think it was just getting used

36:39

to what you were prepared to sort of share as

36:41

well. It wasn't that it was right or wrong or I felt

36:43

uncomfortable. It was just different to perhaps

36:46

the way I had been at that age, and so

36:48

just a bit of getting used to that.

36:51

That's so interesting are the things you don't

36:53

want to hear.

36:56

Maybe there's maybe

36:59

a bit of day information that

37:03

before the not to be named boyfriend

37:06

arrived on the scene, that I went

37:09

a little bit whilst not wanting

37:11

to look uninterested, was a bit la la la in my

37:13

brain.

37:14

I feel like I'm very good where i'd

37:17

like, I don't talk talk about them buying

37:19

name or introduce you until it's like serious,

37:22

like until we've been dating for at least

37:24

six months. So I feel like

37:26

my current boyfriend slash just

37:29

not in my current my boyfriend will

37:31

be for a long time. That

37:34

just kind of like popped onto the scene and

37:36

then you, guys, I think I mentioned him and then you met him

37:38

like a month later.

37:40

Yeah, that's fine, it was it's more, I

37:42

mean, if I'm being really honest, it's not that it's

37:45

more the the more casual

37:47

relationships.

37:49

Oh you didn't approve.

37:50

It's not that I didn't approve. I

37:53

just didn't need to know about them.

37:56

Yeah, I'm just gonna say this for the listeners.

37:58

The information that I was giving my mom was like,

38:01

oh, a man was at

38:03

my house last night, and you'd be

38:05

like, ah, no, no, he wasn't.

38:07

God, that's true. That's not true.

38:09

The funny one was when

38:11

I picked you up on a Saturday

38:14

morning because we were flying back to Melbourne

38:16

for Grandma's birthday and

38:19

you were furiatively texting

38:22

someone in the backseat of the uber,

38:25

which was the person who was still.

38:27

At your place. Did

38:31

you know that, Yeah, because you.

38:33

Ended up having to tell me because I couldn't

38:35

figure out what all the texting was

38:37

going on about.

38:39

Yeah, that was Oh my god, I completely

38:41

forgot about that. Oh

38:43

yeah, that's so true. That did happen.

38:46

And the thing was, you know what it was was this

38:49

was it was actually not good because my

38:52

house where I'm moving

38:54

out literally today, but my current house,

38:57

once you're in the house and the door is locked, you

39:00

can't get out without a key, and it's

39:02

metal bars all over the

39:04

windows, all over the doors and the hall

39:07

of the doors were locked and there were no keys in the

39:09

house and my roommates

39:11

weren't coming back until that evening,

39:13

so I accidentally locked that man in my house

39:16

for eight hours before

39:18

he could get out, and I was and

39:20

I was like, we were running late for our flight.

39:23

I was like, and well,

39:25

obviously he's

39:28

not around anymore. So I'm not gonna say I'm

39:30

gonna be like, sorry, but can

39:32

you imagine if he was listening, Sorry, I locked you in my house

39:34

for eight hours. That's so funny.

39:36

That's so funny. Business.

39:47

I want to talk about work because

39:49

I was very lucky that I had a mother

39:51

like you, who was very very independently

39:55

successful. No NEPO babies

39:57

here. You worked very very hard, but

39:59

you also to very unconventional way to

40:02

success like you got. You know, it

40:04

was crazy to hear when I first went to Union

40:06

that you actually got asked to leave

40:09

your university. You got kicked out from

40:13

the economics department. And now you are an

40:15

economist and you are a very good economist

40:18

and you're also a CEO.

40:20

What do you think with some of the hardest

40:22

parts about breaking into that male dominated

40:25

industry.

40:26

Well, first of all, let's not just

40:28

slide over.

40:31

Getting kicked out of UNI, because I do actually

40:33

think it's an important message. I think there's

40:35

so much pressure on people

40:38

at high school and in their twenties around,

40:41

you know, going to union, just

40:44

doing everything, getting

40:46

amazing grades, you know,

40:49

paying for a life that's more

40:51

and more expensive by the day, you

40:53

know, and doing all the extracurricular stuff so that you

40:56

end up with a CV that

40:58

gets you into a job that you

41:00

want, right And I just think this, you know, there's

41:02

just so much pressure on I

41:04

think, and to understand

41:07

where you're going and what.

41:08

You think you should be doing.

41:09

So I actually make

41:12

a point of talking about the fact that it took

41:14

me, you know, quite a few

41:16

years to get through UNI. I was fortunate didn't cost

41:19

what it costs to you guys now, but

41:21

I did fail two years of university

41:23

because I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I

41:25

actually started off doing a psychology

41:28

degree double degree

41:30

and really struggled, and I was doing

41:32

a whole bunch of sport and athletics and just

41:35

didn't know what I wanted to do. Decided

41:37

I didn't want to be a clinical psychologist. But

41:41

yeah, it was just sort of floundering.

41:43

You know.

41:43

When I came out of UNI, I couldn't I couldn't get

41:45

a job interview because

41:48

your agrees were so bad.

41:49

My transcript was crap, And

41:52

yeah, I'd done all these other things, and I'd worked and I you

41:54

know, I had competed successfully in athletics

41:56

and blah blah blah. But you know, it was

41:58

just on a wing at a pres for me to go, well, those grades

42:01

don't reflect who I really am, and

42:03

they're like, well whatever. So

42:05

I took a year off and worked for a little

42:07

while, traveled overseas, which

42:10

was a great experience. You know, I met some people who

42:12

just didn't have the opportunities that I had, including

42:15

a young woman studying economics,

42:19

you know, in in Turkey of all places,

42:22

who was just never going to have the opportunities that I had. And

42:24

so I came back and started

42:27

studying again to sort of show that I could get through

42:29

it, and then ended up really enjoying it. So I

42:31

guess, you know, at the risk of sort of waffling

42:33

on a bit about it, I do think it's an

42:35

important message for people to life

42:38

isn't a straight line, and as long as

42:40

you're sort of learning and growing and heading

42:42

in a direction that you're enjoying, you

42:45

know, just keep going with

42:47

it and when it stops working, then go and

42:49

do something else.

42:51

It's so interesting because you have lived so many

42:53

lives that like I wasn't there for Like

42:55

I always think about how, you

42:57

know, I've known you my entire life, but you

43:00

only known me for the last twenty four years,

43:02

and there were all these things that happened before

43:04

me that you have like a little wisdom

43:07

from, like you were my age once and

43:09

like just going through the insane level

43:11

of like confusion and like big life changes.

43:14

And I do think that's a really nice message, and I think

43:16

that's one that you really always instilled in us of like

43:19

there is not a clear blueprint for what creates

43:22

a good life. You're allowed

43:24

to like take time to figure it out. And

43:27

obviously we're all kind of doing that now.

43:29

Like what is this job? I don't know what this This wasn't

43:31

a job when I was a

43:33

kid, Actually it kind of was. Do

43:35

you remember we used to always listen to the radio

43:38

This American Life. I

43:40

love that show. So I feel like that was such a huge

43:42

inspiration. Did you experience a lot

43:44

of like imposter syndrome going back to UNI or

43:46

when you were applying for jobs

43:48

again because your transcript was so not

43:51

great?

43:52

Well, it's really it's really funny like on imposter

43:54

syndrome. Yes, all through

43:56

my career and you

43:59

know I've done, I've chopped and changed a little

44:01

bit and absolutely

44:03

like I can like

44:07

like imposter syndrome when I started my first job,

44:09

because I started at Federal Treasury, and you

44:11

know, to get in there was challenging and

44:13

there were you know, my co

44:16

cohort of grads was just so impressive.

44:20

Like in some ways, I was pretty focused on what I wanted

44:22

to get out of that. I had a really clear objective

44:25

and so in some ways I kind of ignored

44:27

a whole bunch of other stuff, like if I'm really honest, and you

44:29

know, back to the question about feminism or whatever,

44:31

Like I had a goal and I just ran hard at it,

44:35

and in some ways I was you know, people sort

44:37

of said to me, well, you were sort of singular

44:40

focus on that opportunity,

44:43

you know.

44:44

Was probably too much and whatever.

44:45

But you know, I

44:48

don't think they would have said that if I was a man, to be honest,

44:50

and.

44:51

It worked no way, So it didn't work

44:54

you are now. But so it was like

44:57

you were doing economics, which

44:59

at the time a bit of a boys game.

45:02

And then also business is like the

45:04

commerce kind of the commerce side of it as

45:06

well.

45:07

Yeah, I mean, I think.

45:09

Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I also wanted to come

45:11

back on the imposter syndrome and my results.

45:14

When I was interviewed for Treasury,

45:17

the person who was interviewing me asked me

45:19

precisely once about those

45:22

my results and they and they said,

45:24

what happened here?

45:25

And I told them and that was it and

45:27

never, what.

45:28

Did you say, You're just like I just didn't know what I wanted.

45:30

Yeah, I said, I was doing

45:32

all these other things. I had way too much on.

45:34

I didn't know what I wanted. I was floundering.

45:36

I came back with intent and here's the results,

45:40

and that was fine, and sorry to

45:42

come back. The reason I wanted to come back to that is because

45:45

fast forward a few years later, when I was actually

45:47

interviewing graduates for Treasury, there's

45:50

a bunch of people being put on piles who

45:53

whose results kind of looked a bit

45:56

like mine, and

45:58

I wanted to interview one or two of them,

46:01

and a few people in the room were just

46:03

like, no way, And so I fessed up

46:05

and said, well, you wouldn't have I wouldn't be here, like,

46:07

don't.

46:08

You want to know.

46:08

Like, there's one person in particular, I was looking at their results

46:10

and they'd gone from really poor results

46:13

to just knocking out of the pack, and I said, don't you

46:15

want to know what happened there? Don't

46:17

don't you because that switch has flipped

46:20

and I want to know what's gone on and what this

46:22

person is up to because that's the person I

46:24

want to talk to. And so again,

46:26

it was just a kind of an interesting life

46:29

lesson if you like.

46:31

Boys jobs. Yeah, like I.

46:34

Probably Treasury, there were fair few

46:36

female grads, and you know, we were

46:38

very focused on making sure we continue

46:40

to recruit them. So yes, it

46:42

was male dominated. It was more that I had opportunities

46:45

to be in really interesting meetings

46:48

where everyone who is more senior.

46:49

Was male, and

46:52

that was good. It's

46:55

I don't.

46:55

Know, maybe this is a funny side bar, but my

46:59

name's Melinda. People sometimes

47:01

call me mel but at work and

47:03

particularly at Treasury. When I was at Treasury, that's when

47:05

I decided that people had to call me Milinda

47:08

because.

47:08

Because mel sounds like a mail nate as well Mel

47:10

Gibson, and that was too dismissive.

47:13

Oh really, I went into my male boss introduced

47:15

me one day and said, oh, this is mel and it was just

47:17

sort of this, it was just a throwaway line, and I

47:19

thought, I can't have that throwaway line, and

47:22

so so.

47:22

You needed the extra syllables for the extra

47:25

legitimacy.

47:26

Well it was, but it was just all part and parcel of

47:28

how you presented.

47:29

Yeah, I actually agree with that.

47:31

So I just thought I can't have him just saying

47:33

that, and you know, we work closely together,

47:35

but it just felt like it was a trivialization

47:38

of my introduction.

47:40

So yeah, so you're

47:43

kind of like at this point in your career now where

47:45

you just I'm sure you feel pretty secure,

47:48

like you're a bit of a boss bitch. It's

47:51

true though, and I know that like that word

47:53

like like she is such a boss, Like

47:55

what is it like, go a boss? It's girl boss.

47:59

Is kind of funny because it's no like,

48:02

yeah, it's used very dismissively, like you're

48:04

a girl boss. But having

48:07

come through so many stages and like,

48:09

I don't think you're going to retire anytime soon, unless

48:13

you you are, and then that's a

48:15

surprise for me. What

48:17

advice would you give me right

48:19

now at this stage in my career, and I know

48:21

it's very different to what you're what

48:24

you were doing at twenty four. Like you hadn't even graduated

48:26

at twenty four, had you

48:28

know, you wouldn't have you would have just gotten

48:30

your master's.

48:32

Oh I graduated a couple of degrees.

48:35

Oh,

48:37

but what would you do now? What

48:39

advice would you give me at this stage?

48:41

Well?

48:41

Can I can I ask a slightly different

48:44

question? And then what can I respond to a question you

48:46

haven't asked? And then I'll respond to that.

48:47

Question you're asking the questions now you're taking

48:49

over the show, Well you

48:51

can if you want. Now I'm joking, you can totally do

48:54

that.

48:54

The one thing reference to sort

48:56

of being.

48:58

The sort of boss bitch language or whatever, or labeled

49:01

girl boss or whatever you want to call it, like

49:04

I do.

49:05

I think I did want to say, there's one.

49:08

Thing I've really enjoyed about leading

49:11

an organization is being able to sort of set

49:13

the tone and the values. And I think people

49:15

can think about a whole bunch of things that being

49:17

a CEO means or whatever, and there's

49:19

a lot of there's different responsibilities. But probably

49:22

the one thing I didn't really think

49:24

about and underestimated was that was

49:27

the sense of satisfaction that

49:29

you get out of kind of being able

49:31

to set the tone for an organization.

49:35

And I think the reason that's.

49:37

I'm kind of I'm using as a bit of a segue into

49:39

your question because I think it's like it's it's

49:41

caused me to sort of reflect on how

49:43

you set your tone through your career, and

49:46

I guess that's that

49:49

would be my kind of advice. I guess is

49:51

to you know, to think about,

49:53

you know, who you are and what sort of person you

49:55

want to be through the work that you do, and

50:00

to not be necessarily

50:02

confined by thinking about a particular

50:04

role or a

50:06

particular point in your career, but

50:09

to you know, think about the things that you

50:11

enjoy doing because you do them well and

50:14

because you can have

50:16

an impact whatever that is, and

50:18

just that sort of tone and the values

50:21

the way you want to live your life to find

50:23

ways to live that through work, and

50:25

that's probably something that.

50:29

You gain a confidence to be

50:31

able to do through your career.

50:33

And when I look back, you know, it's probably

50:35

one of the things you feel less confident doing when

50:38

you're you know, early

50:40

on in a job or whatever that you sort

50:43

of feel sometimes you have to behave a particular

50:45

way. It will be in a particular role. And

50:48

you know, I was a company

50:51

director at a very young age. I was the

50:53

only woman on the first boards

50:55

i joined, and there's certainly a

50:57

lot of pressure to sort of be

51:00

the persona of that and and I

51:02

guess that's probably my bit of advice.

51:05

If you can find

51:07

a way to do that faster than I did,

51:09

that would be my advice.

51:11

Or to find to find like your mission, well

51:14

like you're like.

51:14

But also just just to be to

51:17

be who you are and to know

51:19

that that's you know, you

51:21

don't have to be the

51:24

you know, the the persona. You don't

51:26

have to perform that role in the way other people

51:28

have performed that role or be that person

51:30

or and so it's just trying to be

51:33

true to who you are as a person and bring

51:35

that into your work. It's

51:39

probably what i'd put on the table.

51:41

Thanks, mam. I appreciate the advice.

51:45

Now. I think that's all the questions that I have. Are there any

51:47

more questions you would like to ask yourself if

51:51

you.

51:51

Feel the need No, no, no, that's it.

51:54

You're yeah, that's good. I'm glad.

51:56

I feel like We covered a lot of bases here. We

51:58

talked about the hood, we talk

52:00

about we talked about feminism, we

52:03

talked about how you were a terrible parent

52:06

and everything. I have to blame you for just

52:08

kidding. Nothing was

52:10

the answer. So thank you so

52:12

much for coming on absolute

52:14

pleasure. I could think of nothing else I'd

52:16

rather be doing. Yeah, well, I'll

52:19

that's so sweet. Why did that make

52:21

me embarrassed? And like, oh, thanks mom?

52:24

No, it was actually so nice, And I feel like it's so nice

52:26

that we'll have this for like, it will be on the internet

52:28

for a while and we can listen

52:30

back to this when I'm thinking about

52:32

putting you in a home or something.

52:34

Oh, you can just play it on

52:36

repeat and I'll feel happy.

52:38

Oh, I'm not going to put you in a home. Do you want to

52:40

be putting a home?

52:41

It depends, it depends. You

52:43

may want to put me in home.

52:45

No, I won't for as long as possible.

52:49

I'm looking forward to coming and sleeping on your couch

52:51

tomorrow.

52:52

Oh my gosh, yeah, my mum's coming to stay in my new

52:54

place tomorrow. It's very comfy. I actually had a

52:56

lie down on it before I

52:59

tested it for you. Perfect I can't believe

53:01

I'm making you sleep on the couch, but unfortunately

53:04

the bed's taken.

53:07

Well.

53:07

Thank you again for coming on. As always,

53:09

if you enjoyed this episode, please

53:12

feel free to leave a five star review on Apple

53:14

Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening

53:16

right now, share it with a friend if they

53:18

would like to hear it, And if you

53:20

have any further episode suggestions questions

53:22

for my girl boss mum,

53:25

please feel free to dm me on Instagram

53:27

at that Psychology podcast or

53:29

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53:31

back next week for another episode.