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Listen to This is Uncomfortable wherever you

1:01

get your podcasts. Hi

1:06

there, I'm Lale Arukaklu, and this

1:09

is Women Who Travel. Today

1:14

I'm talking to someone whose job can

1:16

be anything from welcoming newborn black bear

1:18

cubs into the world or

1:21

examining the stomach of a dead animal. Despite

1:25

having numerous near-death experiences though, she

1:28

has one of the coolest jobs on the planet, researching

1:31

lions in Tanzania, lemurs in Madagascar,

1:33

and bears in the Sierras. It

1:43

was this dusty brown, huge bear, and

1:48

it was right, it was probably 10 feet

1:50

from me, right? So it

1:52

was very, very, very, very close. It

1:55

had silently crept up. I mean, there

1:57

was no noise, I know, ever. Around

2:00

me and sell. One thing

2:02

that struck me was like

2:04

how sign that it was

2:06

in the media. People see

2:08

bears, war and growl and

2:10

in real life they're very

2:12

quiet on almost always and.

2:15

I didn't like p in my pants

2:17

by some miracle, but it felt like

2:19

my heart absolutely stopped. She

2:21

soaked array when groans in Kenya

2:24

and Tanzania. And Marseille

2:26

land. What ended up happening

2:28

over and over is that

2:30

I would experience these kind

2:32

of life. Lessons is very

2:34

personal, deep emotional human society

2:36

lesson and of guided by

2:38

a wild animal. Dot. The

2:40

way his case of And B C's Wild

2:43

Kingdom. Posts of the podcast

2:45

going wild and she's just come

2:47

out with a book. Wildlife. Finding

2:50

my purpose in an untamed wilde. I'm

2:56

the survey when Grant and this is

2:58

a different kind of nature. so a

3:01

podcast all about the human drama of

3:03

saving animals. This season we're going to

3:05

take a journey through the ecological web.

3:09

You go on this path to becoming

3:11

a wildlife. The colleges which.

3:13

Sounds incredibly exciting. Can you

3:16

define it? I. Am

3:18

a wildlife ecologist. Be colleges

3:20

the study of living things

3:22

and how they interact with

3:24

their environment. I don't said

3:26

he chickens and goats and cows, but

3:28

rather I said he bears and lions

3:30

and primates that live in the wilderness.

3:33

And how they interact with their environment.

3:36

And the wildlife ecology that I'm

3:38

most interested in is the kind

3:40

that informs wildlife conservation, so securing

3:42

our. Lives. Is Lines as example,

3:45

what they need, what they use,

3:47

what their patterns are, and how

3:49

they can help us design better

3:51

conservation programs and projects. Secure them

3:53

on this planet and keep them

3:55

healthy and driving. In only like

3:57

a lot less detectives who are who are trying to

3:59

go. Solve the mystery is how

4:01

they behave and what they're looking for.

4:03

Yeah I think like whatever going to

4:06

scientists you are years and silly a

4:08

detective. The goal is to uncover truth

4:10

and then if we put it in

4:12

the wildlife ecology contacts of figuring out

4:14

you know what is unknown or what

4:17

is known. But let's like double testing.

4:21

I. Didn't grow up like hiking or camping with

4:24

my family. are traveling to national parks, you

4:26

know? even to this day I've only been

4:28

to a couple national parks, has been for

4:30

work. Yeah. Now I still

4:32

don't hum from. A cultural

4:34

group, let alone a family culture. That

4:36

says a lot of outdoor recreation, and

4:39

I want to make sure that people

4:41

know that that doesn't have to be

4:43

limiting. It doesn't mean that you don't

4:45

belong or that you can't start at

4:48

a in a more advanced stage or

4:50

patriots play a really big leadership role

4:52

in helping the planet heal and and

4:54

become stronger. As soon as he

4:56

said, I feel like we've been talking about

4:59

this at Traveler a lot in the last

5:01

two years and on this Puck his well

5:03

that the outdoors. says. Something that

5:05

is supposed to be for everyone

5:07

is actually quite an exclusive space

5:09

and know everyone has. Access

5:12

to it or see themselves as having

5:14

access to it? Friends With that something

5:16

that you felt prevented you from becoming

5:18

a quote Unquote an outdoorsy person and

5:21

lead to being a late bloomer in

5:23

that respect. One hundred percent. Yeah, there's

5:25

no question, and it's still something that

5:27

I I kind of battle is. you

5:30

know, right now I have an eight

5:32

year old daughter who feels very comfortable

5:34

in the outdoors and right now she's

5:36

asking to go fishing. see saying mommy?

5:39

I've never been sitting in my whole

5:41

entire life. As really want to go

5:43

fishing and I'm think there is a girl.

5:45

I have never been fishing either. I don't

5:47

even know where to start and I've noticed

5:49

that there is this impostor syndrome creeping up

5:52

in me. right? Me? Someone who you know

5:54

is outside all the time for my career.

5:57

I. Have been procrastinating taking

5:59

my daughter they're saying because

6:01

I feel so uncomfortable accessing.

6:04

The. Space. As a I still feel

6:06

like there's this kind of invisible barrier

6:08

because I don't. See. A lot

6:10

of representation. I don't see a lot of black

6:12

millennial mom's taking their daughters who saying i don't

6:14

know where to get a fishing pole? I really

6:17

don't. So. These stairs even ways

6:19

that me and my kind of empowered

6:21

stay. Still, See all.

6:23

The. That echoes of society's barriers

6:25

you know that they put up

6:28

to show who belongs outside, his

6:30

welcome and outdoors and who events

6:32

and if I were to were

6:34

to rewind. When I was little

6:36

kid, I loved watching nature shows

6:38

on Tv. I just loved it.

6:40

Like nature documentaries? For. My

6:42

jam. Animals nearly

6:44

always bless, you

6:46

know, It's

6:49

again we're testing. If you

6:51

know another as I say you know

6:53

less about animals, you should be able

6:55

to know when analysis is good times.

6:57

he will. He will let you know

6:59

you put out his ears who probably

7:01

make a dummy. Charles Nice. You're very

7:03

city than you can cited to charge

7:05

names of welcome to. I

7:07

like morning cartoons that if I

7:09

probably had a choice, I would

7:11

choose like Nature says. And eight.

7:14

I grew up in big cities

7:16

and I was under the impression

7:18

that Nature was really far away.

7:20

I lived in San Francisco and

7:22

I could find the wilderness and

7:24

Africa and South America and Asia.

7:27

He. Had to cross. Oceans. And continents

7:29

the you know to get to the while. And.

7:32

I was also under the impression that

7:34

likes to people who have these adventures

7:36

who know the most to who can

7:38

educate the world and who are leaders

7:41

in the environmental movement and environmental protections

7:43

are like British and Australian middle aged

7:45

white guys you know I just thought

7:47

like they've got it like they like.

7:50

I've never seen a brown person as

7:52

female person you know like on these

7:54

shows. These. Guys have the best

7:56

Served as smart as. Combat

7:58

what you're saying about. Hey white

8:01

male wildlife hosts you. You

8:03

have the skill set. A

8:05

new have the chops and the intelligence and

8:07

the curiosity. It sounds like take. That's.

8:09

How you get to that job? Thank. You

8:11

for first saying that for characterizing me

8:13

that way and people like me that

8:15

way I really believe that's true you

8:17

know and I was is also add

8:20

my way that best suits that. It

8:22

was recently it was literally this your

8:24

twenties was for her that a friend

8:26

of mine challenge me to look up

8:28

the bio's of that nature show host

8:30

that I loved so much when I

8:32

was a kid and and some of

8:34

the ones that I love to did

8:36

to this day to see what their

8:39

education was. And let their scientific background

8:41

was. And when I tell you

8:43

like not a master's degree in

8:45

thought A D H D it's

8:48

not a scientific. Research projects.

8:51

On the bus meta analysis on the

8:53

that I think women really go through

8:55

a lot is that in my class

8:58

to to be a nature show host

9:00

to like be on par with these

9:02

people. I went above and beyond with

9:04

experience, with leadership with with you know

9:06

with academia that's for sure. That.

9:08

There's still love this.

9:11

Tremendous. Double standard when it

9:13

comes to who has been very visible

9:15

in this field and in Nascar and

9:17

who is still fighting to be included

9:19

in on a lot of ways I

9:21

feel like I'm I'm still on a

9:23

fight. You know to wait till I

9:25

get to the places to the levels

9:27

as access and influence that a lot

9:29

of other people have had and I

9:31

realized that. I

9:34

have all these degrees, I've let all

9:36

these research projects I've you know as

9:38

pushed and pulled and prop people with

9:40

me and I've asked for help and

9:42

I've you know like had scary moments

9:44

and all the stuff on this quest

9:46

to just try to like be a

9:48

leader in helping keep endangered species from

9:50

extinction. Seen

9:52

on my focus is on the side of

9:54

wild animals. Focusing.

9:57

On this wild animal and

9:59

this incredible. Study of Then you

10:01

track them and you follow them when

10:03

you're out in these extraordinary parts of

10:05

the world. One of the tools that

10:07

I have used the most of my

10:09

career is a tracking color right? So

10:11

like whether it's ally and or a

10:13

bear it's a color that goes around

10:16

animals next and a like what we

10:18

have our paths and these days their

10:20

Gps devices that are it has to

10:22

the colors and the Gps devices essentially

10:24

like the app we have on our

10:26

smartphones that tells us the little blue.that

10:28

tells us where we are. On a

10:30

map and it's housing these Gps

10:33

hollers to a lions net. Can

10:35

allow us to track that in a

10:37

mall and every moment. So it's a

10:39

capture the animal. We set a trap

10:41

which is usually just like a big

10:43

cage. Ah more. recapture the animal and

10:45

wall sedate the animal. Ah, Just

10:48

and mobilize it for half an hour. Forty

10:50

five minutes and order to. Give. It

10:52

a check out attach the color,

10:54

some take a little hair sample

10:56

which gives us some dna and

10:59

understand how it's related to other

11:01

lions on the landscape. And then

11:03

we like get out of their. Even

11:05

and wildlife conservation data is this

11:07

understanding the places at the lion

11:10

frequent. The. Places in particular

11:12

that line avoids on the landscape.

11:15

Is really important in terms

11:17

of how we protest the

11:19

lands that protects. The. Lions.

11:23

I've always been proud because my work

11:26

is always very deliberately focused on females

11:28

of the species right? So whether it's

11:30

fares are lions, primates I'm looking at

11:32

like what is the female of reproductive

11:35

age doing because is the females aren't

11:37

protected That means a cubs are protected

11:39

which means we do not have and

11:41

helping growing thriving population. After

11:46

the break. Dot to raise advances

11:48

in east. Africa, Including pursuing

11:50

giraffe pitches and living with

11:53

lines. Are

11:58

you ever minding your own business? You start

12:00

to wonder how you killer whales were.

12:03

Who are Hollywood popper? I'd sit British

12:05

sailors get it on and the eighteen

12:07

hundreds with each other. I'm Jonathan sadness

12:10

and every week on getting serious I

12:12

sit down for gorgeous conversation with people.

12:14

Really an expert to learn all about

12:16

something that makes me curious honey we're

12:19

for everything around here with scientists, historians,

12:21

activists, entertainers and other brilliant just Akbar

12:23

using to me every Wednesday for an

12:26

all new topic with an all new

12:28

expert on getting curious. Listen to

12:30

Getting Serious wherever you get your podcast.

12:34

Buckle up for the snack of the last century.

12:36

Olivia. Colman and Jesse Buckley star

12:38

in Wicked Little Letters and hilarious

12:41

new mystery comedy based on an

12:43

outrageously tree scandal. In

12:45

the nineteen twenties English seaside town. Residents.

12:48

Begin to receive. Wicked Letters. Still,

12:50

Have unintentionally hilarious profanities.

12:53

Prompting. A national uproar and a

12:55

criminal investigation. foul mouthed

12:58

race getting rowdy Irish migrants. Is.

13:00

Initially charged with the crime, That. When

13:02

that sounds, women begin to investigate the

13:04

plan themselves. They. Suspect that

13:06

something is amiss. And. Raise may

13:09

not be the culprit after all. We.

13:11

Could Little Less is now playing in New

13:13

York and Los Angeles everywhere a process. Only

13:16

in theaters. I'm

13:28

not even going to try. And compare my own

13:30

travel experience. seals that one occasion. the

13:32

I was on the Masai Mara and

13:34

it was so amazing. What's the dynamics

13:36

of these animals? And also to come up

13:38

so close. To them and you start

13:41

to see personalities and behavior coming.

13:43

Three will have been some of

13:45

your up close. Experiences or

13:47

twenty. Years old when I went

13:49

to Kenya for the first time in.

13:52

It wasn't just my first time being

13:54

in Africa are East Africa. it was

13:56

also my first time seeing a wild

13:58

animal taking a high hitting it. You

14:00

know, having an outdoor experience. What?

14:03

Was it like seen that wildlife

14:05

for the first time? Oh my

14:07

gosh, Yeah you know people people

14:09

go to Kenya to like go

14:11

undies, epic safaris and see eat

14:13

out all these bucket list animal

14:15

species. And I remember just travelling

14:17

from the airport in Nairobi down

14:19

to our camp site which was

14:21

in Southern Kenny outside of Ambaselli

14:23

National Park and we did not

14:25

need to go on a safari.

14:27

We do not need to enter

14:29

national park. I mean just from

14:31

the highway. I remember seeing. You

14:34

know, America. The store was the very

14:36

first animal that I saw. My very

14:38

first wild animal ever. my life and

14:41

I remember thinking to myself, no one's

14:43

ever told me. About. Marabou his dog I.

14:45

Thought are gonna see an elephant's buy it

14:47

from somewhere. I was in the car and

14:49

where it was on the landscape in the

14:52

mirror be searched can be size feet tall

14:54

right? I mean they're these huge huge birds

14:56

and it looks like a dinosaur With that

14:58

a velociraptor rant like walking around the landscape

15:01

and I remember thinking like tuck them mysteries

15:03

right as like that no one told me

15:05

about this. I'm already seeing something I didn't

15:07

even expect. like what could be next. We

15:11

would drive through national parks. I remember one

15:13

of the first ways that my little group

15:15

as soon as we're trained was like look

15:17

at a group of will to be stay

15:20

at a distance and to be able to

15:22

estimate exactly how many and then when thrive

15:24

and look at a group of the zebra

15:26

than the challenge of be to estimate how

15:28

many are there. You

15:32

have stories in the book about. The

15:34

ways in which the wildlife interact

15:36

with the Messiah Villages and I

15:38

mean living on. The Messiah means that

15:40

lions are a pause your. Daily

15:42

life in the breed time I spent

15:44

there. So the people I met were

15:46

telling me all sorts of stories to

15:49

do sarah story or two from your

15:51

book about the wildlife that you encountered

15:53

that. Living

15:57

and working in Central Tenzin? Yeah.

15:59

Setting Lion Freight. One day I

16:01

was with just one of the

16:03

researchers. He was a local Tanzanian

16:05

guy and he was from them.

16:07

Asi community says he had this

16:09

really asshole relationship. you know as

16:12

up as a try and ecologist

16:14

representing you know, the people that

16:16

are adjacent to the landscape. And

16:18

one day we were together setting

16:20

lions and we got a call

16:22

on the radio that poachers were

16:24

a foot and I freaked out.

16:26

I thought poachers mean like machine

16:28

guns and we better get outta.

16:30

Here because I I'm not trying

16:32

to die today and instead of

16:34

leaving the bus my colleague decided

16:37

to go to where the. Poachers

16:39

were and I.

16:42

Said okay and we drove off

16:44

road and our it be a

16:46

call to the site where the

16:49

poachers were and by the time

16:51

without their the wildlife authorities had

16:53

captured these men and they are

16:55

him past and and they were

16:58

looking very ashamed and receipt is

17:00

an next to them was a

17:02

huge female giraffe. ah and she

17:04

was dead They had killed her.

17:10

And. She was lying

17:12

down and it it was. And

17:15

in even that moments, Has

17:17

stuck with me for a life, you

17:19

know? giraffes are always operate thoroughly standing

17:21

there there next ourselves. second long that

17:23

they can't lie down because if they

17:26

did they would never get back up

17:28

some even sleep standing up. They

17:30

give birth standing efficiency. Kind of

17:33

do everything city of So to

17:35

see a giraffe on it's side.

17:37

Lying down was something that. I

17:40

had never seen and never expected to

17:42

see and it didn't look dead sea

17:44

now but very much alive sleeping at

17:46

a tough stuff and she felt warm

17:48

she was suspect. Females.

17:50

Harassing over a tons in weight. And

17:54

and a in on I cried for

17:56

I had like like my whole world

17:58

as wild animals that. It

18:02

was devastating to me. I'm

18:04

focused on her. And. The

18:06

fact that her life had just been

18:09

taken out by these been a selfish

18:11

people. And. What

18:13

I noticed was that my colleague

18:16

who I was weird was talking

18:18

to the poachers. And in

18:20

I looked over and I saw

18:22

that these men were also crying.

18:25

And. Then the for a different race and they

18:27

were crying because. They their

18:29

lives were ruined in that moment,

18:31

right? Like being captured and chasing

18:33

incarceration, While. They were just trying

18:35

to like make money for their family. You

18:38

know they, they have nothing against your ass.

18:40

I just really needed Singh said in Pin. I.

18:42

Noticed that Peter was having a moment with

18:44

these guys I don't have he knew them

18:47

or Wyatt said. But. That was happening.

18:49

And I remember and a jarred me where

18:51

I was like wait a sec. There's a

18:53

lot of loss happening in this moment right

18:55

now. There's a lot of pain for a

18:57

lot of different people happening in this moment.

19:00

And then. The.

19:03

The. Poachers got taken away. And.

19:06

I thought to myself like wow, what are we gonna

19:08

do You know? here's this giraffe and you know maybe

19:11

we can donate her body to science or she could

19:13

go to a museum or you know, or what is

19:15

it gonna be. He

19:18

is reading from the episode. At

19:21

Your Raskin Way. Thousands of pounds

19:23

and this one offered about as

19:25

fun as muscle tissue. Skeeter slightly

19:27

gentler now with his delivery, explained

19:30

that the amount of meat sitting

19:32

in front of us could see

19:34

the many people for a long

19:36

time but had to act fast.

19:39

Forward. Had already spread throughout the

19:41

neighboring Moss I communities. And. People

19:43

were on their way back with baskets,

19:45

bags, and pots. Everyone would line

19:47

up, hack off giraffe, meet with a

19:49

machete, and bring it back to their

19:52

home. We. Were in the

19:54

bush with no electricity and thus

19:56

know refrigeration. All. of this had

19:58

to happen while the meatless still fresh

20:00

and before nightfall when carnivores

20:03

would scavenge the carcass. Time

20:06

was of the essence and it was only safe

20:08

for us to stay by the giraffe for a

20:10

short time. While my mind

20:12

had been racing with potential next steps

20:14

moments before, this idea hadn't dawned on

20:16

me. Of course there was an

20:19

opportunity to use the whole animal. What

20:21

were we going to let it sit there and rot? Absolutely

20:25

not. And of course this community of

20:27

indigenous people who had shared the land

20:29

with wildlife for millennia already

20:32

had a protocol for when an

20:34

animal is illegally killed. A

20:36

glimmer of hope grew within me. I

20:39

didn't have to be completely powerless in

20:42

this tragic situation. I

20:44

could be active in a solution. Optimism

20:47

and action are parts of my core

20:49

essence. And in that

20:51

moment I blossomed into the

20:53

ray who learns, understands, and

20:55

helps. The

21:02

Oscars are almost upon us, which means now

21:04

is the time to start catching up on

21:06

all of the buzz from this year's awards

21:09

season. I'm Katie Rich.

21:11

I'm one of the hosts of Vanity

21:13

Fair's Little Gold Men podcast. Every

21:15

week we cover the ups and

21:18

downs of the Oscar race, from

21:20

Farbenheimer to the Golden Globes controversy

21:22

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I mean that's how you know you really

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21:36

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21:44

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Gold Men, available on Apple's YouTube channel.

22:00

podcast or wherever you're listening now.

22:06

You know, in Swahili I asked him like, what's going

22:09

on? What are we doing? And he

22:11

explained, we don't have a lot of time. I

22:13

was put to work and I was

22:16

doing something with my body that I

22:18

had literally been trained against which is

22:20

to like hack into the flesh

22:23

of an animal that I'm like

22:25

here on earth to protect. And

22:28

we cut chunks of meat

22:30

off of this giraffe and

22:32

my hands were bloody and I

22:34

smelled like, I mean, rank,

22:37

right? And we're throwing just chunks

22:39

of meat into the back of our truck

22:41

until we couldn't anymore. And

22:43

before we jumped in the truck to drive

22:46

over to the villages, I saw in the

22:48

distance and you know, this is the central

22:50

Tanzanian bush, it's very flat. And

22:52

I could see these, this line

22:55

of people. And

23:02

I knew that they were women because I had become

23:05

so close to the Maasai community in

23:07

the red and purple

23:10

cloaks that they wore with their

23:12

dark brown bald heads and white

23:15

bead work. This line of women

23:17

with bowls on their heads,

23:19

somehow they had heard that a

23:21

giraffe went down and they were walking in

23:24

a line to come collect meat also. And

23:27

I have to stop myself every so often because I always

23:30

want to cry. It was this

23:32

moment where I realized that wildlife

23:35

conservation and human need have

23:37

to go hand in hand.

23:42

Coming up, studying bears around

23:44

Lake Tahoe and the revelation

23:46

of a 10 year secret. When

24:01

I was a graduate student and I was setting

24:04

bear traps in order to catch them and

24:06

put GPS collars on, I mean, it was

24:09

so terrifying. I

24:11

was by myself. This was

24:13

the summer of 2012. And

24:18

I was in such a remote

24:20

part of the Western

24:23

Nevada wilderness that,

24:25

you know, there was a cell signal,

24:27

there were no roads even, like not

24:30

even unpaved dirt roads. So

24:32

I was getting around mostly in

24:34

an ATV, right, in an off-road

24:37

little buggy, setting a bear trap. And

24:40

when I got up to, you know, this

24:42

high ridge to put more

24:45

bait in the trap, there was no bear there. It was

24:47

hot, I was sweaty, I was alone, you know, for like,

24:49

on day 10, you know, I kept thinking

24:53

to myself, like, why did I

24:55

think science was cool? This is awful.

24:58

You know, so I was in a bad

25:00

mood. I did this to myself. Yeah, like

25:02

this is optional. Like I can see a

25:04

crossing guard. What am I doing? And

25:08

I, you know, I had a backpack full

25:11

of bear spray, you know, a flare gun,

25:13

my water, you know, all kinds of stuff.

25:15

And I just left it at my ATV

25:18

because it would weigh me down on my little hike

25:20

up to the bear trap. And

25:22

I was just in such a frustrated mood, right? And

25:24

so I hiked up, I saw that the trap had

25:26

not caught a bear, the bait

25:28

was gone. I thought, you know, some

25:30

little rascal animal has eaten the can

25:33

of tuna fish that I left here. So,

25:36

you know, I had set another can

25:38

of tuna fish in there and

25:40

probably cursing to myself. And

25:43

I stand up quickly, turn

25:45

around, and right in front

25:47

of me is a big 600 pound male black

25:53

bear. And what

25:55

you're supposed to do when you see a bear

25:57

is, you know, one spray your bear spray, which

25:59

I didn't have. And two, just begin

26:01

to back away slowly. You can speak in

26:03

a loud voice to kind of frighten the

26:05

bear a little bit, but you're always backing

26:07

away slowly. Honey, all

26:10

of my training left my body in that

26:12

moment, and I turned and ran, which is

26:15

the exact opposite thing you're supposed to do.

26:17

And the bear naturally started chasing me, which

26:20

is what they do if you run. Right?

26:24

Pray run, right? If you're a rabbit, if

26:26

you're a little deer, you run away and the bear

26:28

catches you and you do. And I just,

26:30

it's like something overtook me. I lost

26:33

my mind and ran and

26:35

I was stumbling and I was falling again. There's

26:38

no trail, right? I'm just like here in this

26:40

arid environment, I could hear the

26:42

bear right behind me. I could hear

26:44

its breath. I felt like I could

26:46

feel it nipping at my back.

26:49

I don't know if that's real or not, but that's, that's

26:51

what I remember. And to

26:54

be clear, you know, bears can run 25 miles an hour,

26:56

right? Bears cannot

26:58

outrun a bear. I can run, you know, four miles

27:00

an hour, you know? So

27:03

the fact that it did not

27:06

touch me, bite me, attack me,

27:08

kill me is completely because

27:10

the bear really just wanted that can of

27:12

tuna fish and wanted to scare me off

27:14

of it. And once I got started, you

27:17

know, running away, it thought to itself like,

27:19

oh great, she's gone. That

27:21

was annoying. And I've now I've got another can

27:23

of that delicious tuna. Let's be co-eat. My evil

27:25

plan all along. And I kept this story a

27:27

secret. I mean, I ran back to my ATV.

27:30

I, you know, I buzzed

27:32

back to my campsite. I remember

27:34

crying for hours. I was, first

27:37

of all, scared. I was mad at myself for

27:39

making such a horrible mistake. I was also scared

27:41

to go back to that place. And I was

27:43

afraid to tell the biologists

27:46

that I was working with, right, who

27:48

like had trained me and entrusted me

27:50

and were depending on me. I was

27:53

mortified. And I ended

27:55

up keeping this whole story a secret until I

27:57

wrote this book. So over 10 years, I never.

28:00

told anyone. And then I wrote this

28:02

book and decided like, you know what,

28:04

I am super imperfect in all kinds

28:06

of ways, not just in, you know,

28:08

my field biology. But

28:10

I felt like I was ready to talk

28:13

about the things that I've really screwed

28:16

up and the things that I

28:18

got right. Usually when you screw

28:20

up, you do tend to learn

28:22

from it. And hopefully, maybe don't, don't

28:24

make the same mistake again. I imagine

28:27

you've come up against a couple

28:29

of other dicey situations, perhaps not

28:31

quite so near death. But I

28:34

can't imagine that that is the one and only time

28:36

that you've been scared

28:38

in your job. Has there been an occasion

28:40

where you've looked back and realized now that

28:43

you've learned how to manage that fear and

28:45

to be able to make a clear

28:48

headed decision in how you respond to it? Yes,

28:51

yes. Something that traveling

28:54

and living in the outdoors

28:56

so much with wild animals

28:59

has taught me is that most

29:01

of the time I'm actually safer in

29:03

nature than when I'm not. You

29:06

know, I have family members and friends who

29:08

are very much not outdoorsy. And so I

29:10

often get people asking me like, aren't you

29:12

scared? Aren't you scared? You're dealing with lions,

29:15

you're dealing with bears, you're dealing with, you

29:17

know, sharks sometimes, you know. And

29:19

I often say to myself, like, I don't think

29:21

I'm in more danger than if I'm just walking

29:24

down the streets. I mean, you know, the United

29:26

States has a gun violence crisis, you know, I,

29:28

if I were a firefighter, I think my job would

29:31

put me in more danger than what I do. So,

29:35

so in a lot of ways, I say

29:37

that to people, but I also, I also say

29:39

it to myself, you know, I also remind myself

29:41

that when I'm camping, and

29:44

there's a lion circling my tent, you

29:46

know, trying to figure out what's inside

29:49

that more likely than not, I'm

29:51

going to be okay. But there

29:53

are, there's human on

29:55

human violence, violence

29:58

against women, you know, something that I literally

30:00

experienced and learned in real

30:02

life is how often nature

30:05

protects me and how often

30:07

nature is a safe haven

30:10

for me and for so many people.

30:13

I've gone to some pretty far

30:15

away isolated places, sometimes on my

30:17

own, and people ask me, have

30:20

you felt scared? Are you worried about someone

30:22

attacking you? And I think

30:24

I live in New York. A woman

30:27

got attacked in my subway station weeks

30:29

before I flew to the Amazon. Yeah.

30:38

You met some hunters in Nevada? Oh

30:42

my gosh. I was living in

30:44

Nevada in this rural community with

30:46

a cultural group of white mountain

30:48

dwelling Nevadans that was very different

30:50

at the time I was living

30:52

in Harlem, New York. And

30:55

I had been there for months and everyone

30:57

was so friendly and so inviting and really

31:02

pulled me into the community right away. What

31:04

I thought was fascinating was that a

31:06

lot of the folks who were in

31:09

the wildlife conservation and management world were

31:11

also hunters. They'd hunt elk,

31:13

they'd hunt deer, they'd hunt all kinds of

31:15

things. Bear hunting was legal, but they wouldn't

31:17

hunt bears. And so

31:19

we ate a lot of game meat. I'd be invited

31:21

for dinner. I don't hunt, that's not

31:24

my thing. I've never done it, I have no interest.

31:27

But I opened my mind. My mind

31:29

was expanded and I would eat what

31:31

they would serve. And one day I

31:33

was served something that was particularly delicious

31:35

and I did not know what it

31:37

was and I watched my colleagues look

31:39

at me and like elbow each other,

31:42

you know? And finally I was like,

31:44

what am I eating? What is this? And

31:46

I was told it was mountain lion. We

31:49

were eating mountain lion chops

31:51

with a mushroom gravy. And

31:55

I probably stopped mid-too. And

31:59

I had to kind of like bat- track in my mind like is

32:01

it legal to hunt mountain lions? You know,

32:03

was this poaching? A real internal monologue

32:05

going on. Yeah, it was not poaching

32:07

this time. Someone's wife

32:09

had gotten a mountain lion tag and

32:11

had done what is almost impossible, which

32:13

was to like hunt a mountain lion.

32:17

And we were eating it. I am

32:19

against mountain lion hunting. I really don't like

32:21

that idea. I don't. I think

32:23

that if I had known about it before,

32:25

I would have declined the meal. I'm not

32:28

really okay with it, but it happened and

32:31

the world kept turning and I

32:33

learned. And it was

32:35

a cultural moment that overlapped with

32:37

my wildlife conservation work and career.

32:41

You know, to this day, I lead a

32:43

mountain lion conservation project here in central California.

32:45

And so my job is to protect mountain

32:47

lions and keep them from getting killed. And

32:49

I am a person who has eaten one

32:51

before. Thank you for sharing so many brilliant

32:53

stories. I was gripped, particularly by the bear.

32:55

I was thinking a lot about what you

32:57

said about how even now you've actually only

32:59

been to a handful of national parks, even

33:02

though you've gone ever just

33:04

so many extraordinary places. What's your

33:06

advice to people who don't see

33:08

themselves in the outdoors or represented

33:10

in the outdoors to start

33:12

just stepping out there and experiencing

33:14

it? My

33:20

advice is you can ease yourself

33:22

in or you can enter at

33:24

whatever entry point feels comfortable and

33:26

safe and accessible to you. I'm

33:29

a big fan of America's national parks

33:31

and national parks as a world. I'm

33:33

a huge fan. I recently learned that

33:36

American national parks have a free entry

33:38

day once or twice a year. So

33:40

you don't even have to pay. I think it's soon.

33:43

I think it usually aligns with Earth Month,

33:45

but there are days that you can go

33:47

for free. And that's beautiful, right?

33:49

That's our tax dollars at work. That's how it

33:51

should be. So I'm a

33:53

big fan of those. But I

33:55

don't think that people necessarily have to climb

33:58

the highest mountain, camp with you

34:00

know, go to the furthest, most

34:03

wilderness intense places to be

34:06

outside. I think that watching a butterfly

34:08

from your window or breathing fresh air

34:10

or watching

34:13

your favorite nature documentary counts

34:15

just as much as

34:18

doing something extremely difficult. I

34:25

think that is a perfect note to

34:27

wrap up on. Next

34:33

week, award-winning photojournalists

34:35

who've documented experiences in

34:37

Gaza, Ukraine, Egypt

34:41

and Yemen. I'm

34:45

Laleh Arikoglu and you can find me on

34:48

Instagram at lalehana. Our

34:50

engineers are Jake Loomis, Nick Pittman

34:52

and James Yost. The

34:54

show's mix by Amal Lau. Jude

34:57

Campsner from Corporation for Independent Media is

34:59

our producer. Chris Bannon

35:01

is Conde Nast, head of global audio.

35:04

See you next week. Hi,

35:17

I'm Deborah Treisman, fiction editor of The New

35:19

Yorker and host of The New Yorker Fiction

35:21

Podcast. On the podcast,

35:23

I ask a great contemporary writer to

35:25

select a favorite story from the magazine's

35:28

almost hundred-year archive to read and discuss.

35:31

Together, we delve into the story,

35:33

exploring its themes, its style and

35:35

what makes fiction work. You

35:38

can listen to authors like Ateza Moshvag talk

35:40

about why we write. Story

35:42

or attaching a story

35:44

or creating a story is this

35:48

inclination that we all have to

35:51

stop spinning. And

35:53

you can hear writers like George Saunders discuss the

35:55

nature of storytelling. On

35:57

the first read, you accept these things as descriptions.

36:00

and they make you see the scene, but every mind

36:02

is a chance to reflect the reader's mind.

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You'll discover new favorite authors and read old

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