0:00

This is Words

0:03

Matter with Norm

0:06

Ornstein. We've

0:08

got the votes and screw the rest of

0:10

you. And Dr. Kavita Patel. These

0:13

might be some of the smaller moments, you

0:16

know, with all the bombshells. Didn't catch people's eyes. Hello

0:30

and welcome to Words Matter from the DSR Network.

0:33

Each week Norm Ornstein and I will talk about

0:35

the issues facing our country. As

0:37

Norm, we're headed not just into a

0:39

very tenuous, precarious cycle of

0:41

elections and the implications for not

0:43

just our country, but for the

0:46

globe. But we're going

0:48

to spend some time today talking

0:50

about something that I can... It's very rare,

0:52

Norm, that you and I can say that there's

0:54

a topic that every single human on

0:56

this earth is affected by. And

0:59

it wouldn't be Words Matter if

1:01

we didn't pay tribute and honor

1:03

and also reflections on the four-year

1:05

anniversary of March 13th of 2020

1:09

and the Declaration by the World Health Organization

1:12

of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Otherwise,

1:14

there's the COVID-19 virus as a

1:17

national emergency and a pandemic. And

1:19

I think that it's very fitting

1:22

because you and I have come

1:24

into these pods during COVID and

1:27

also hopefully emerging from COVID if

1:29

and when we ever do. I

1:32

still say that we're four years into

1:34

it and it's still killing people and

1:36

it's still causing an incredible

1:38

amount of misinformation. But Norm thought

1:41

that we would take time to just

1:43

reflect and just

1:45

talk about this. And then for our

1:47

members, we're going to have

1:49

some special time for our members only

1:52

section around the dysfunction of the House.

1:54

That might not sound new, but it

1:56

has gotten even worse, Norm, if that's

1:58

true. But Norm, first off, How.

2:00

Many how these Tommy Tommy, Your thoughts

2:03

on his four years since and was

2:05

this is meant to you. Show

2:07

creator or to went back

2:09

in my time machine on

2:11

merge the a twenty twenty.

2:14

I was on a Jet Blue flight

2:16

to Miami. Because on the

2:19

night we were premiering are

2:21

movie as he does the.

2:24

Definition. Of Insanity at the Miami

2:27

Film Festival. And on that

2:29

flight, I ended up sitting next to

2:31

a woman who had a mask on,

2:33

but who coughed continuously throughout the flight.

2:36

I look back on that end

2:38

just. Bless.

2:40

The Lord that it didn't results. and

2:42

me being one of the. Early

2:44

cases with coded. As

2:47

we did a showing it out of

2:50

Miami and then it was oversubscribed, they

2:52

did the second one and as soon

2:54

as the second. Screening. Ended.

2:57

Ah, They came into the

2:59

theater and said were shutting

3:01

down the festival. Halfway

3:04

through. Because. Of

3:06

this emergency. And the.

3:09

That. Was that we came back

3:11

and then endured. Really?

3:13

the next year and a half. In

3:16

particular, what I find

3:18

so remarkable about this

3:20

is first. That.

3:22

Trump. As president. As.

3:25

He told Bob Woodward. Knew.

3:29

That. This was and

3:31

airborne virus that could

3:33

spread and be extremely

3:35

deadly. And yet

3:37

went ahead and lied to

3:39

the American people and basically.

3:42

By. Ultimately, cutting back

3:44

on all of the public health

3:47

measures that would have mattered by

3:49

sending a signal. Despite.

3:52

Doing. Operation Warp Speed and

3:54

give him a the credit

3:56

that he's due for a

3:58

speeding up. The vaccines

4:01

that have proven to

4:03

be remarkably effective. Shun

4:06

them. Didn't do anything with them.

4:08

And. Even now we have.

4:11

A multitude of vaccine deny

4:14

years like Robert F. Kennedy

4:16

Jr and others. And.

4:18

I will get. Feedback

4:21

on social media. Say.

4:24

You. Said that it would eradicate covert

4:26

and it didn't and the people

4:28

still get it with the when

4:30

they've taken the vaccine and of

4:32

course. That's. A lie.

4:34

And it's a lie that Trump

4:36

helped perpetrate. And. The

4:38

fact is that we've had a

4:41

million deaths. Four hundred thousand at

4:43

least. And more. I would say

4:45

given what's happened since with the

4:47

A vaccine deny years in the

4:49

failure to use masks. Many.

4:52

Hundreds of thousands more that are

4:54

a direct result of malfeasance on

4:56

the part of Donald Trump and

4:58

the people around him. And.

5:01

Yet. A. Joe

5:03

Biden is probably gonna suffer.

5:06

From. The. Fact that our

5:08

society was disrupted and turned upside

5:10

down, and despite the fact that.

5:13

He. And his public health measures have.

5:16

Helped to keep this from getting

5:19

even worse. And. From will

5:21

skate a long as he

5:23

has for so long despite

5:25

target is criminal malfeasance. Now

5:29

well for will get into the Colonel

5:31

Now seasons. I think it's I think

5:33

that I think it's a lot of

5:35

things. Correct answers unfortunately. I

5:37

worry escaping criminal malfeasance for and code

5:40

is to simply. One of many and

5:42

I but I'll say is that. The.

5:44

Lennie Lennie put it for listeners

5:46

ensue. Contacts And and maybe because

5:48

it's. Ceci. Sometimes pretty

5:50

hard for me to talk about

5:53

coven are reflecting without. You.

5:55

know kind of getting a little muscle to be

5:57

honest the his so much of my memories or

5:59

raft in early days of thinking

6:01

friends were, I had friends who did, I

6:04

had one physician colleague who did die, which

6:07

is terrible thinking that now

6:09

with what we know, he probably wouldn't have died. Obviously

6:11

with the vaccines, he would not have died.

6:13

And so not just colleagues, but patients,

6:15

and sadly getting used to

6:18

kind of the news every single day

6:20

that somebody that one of us knew

6:22

is a patient of mine or someone

6:24

of one of my close colleagues died

6:27

or unexpected deaths than young

6:29

people. And so, but I

6:31

thought that it would help to put some numbers to it. 30

6:35

million across the globe that we've

6:37

counted have lost lives from COVID

6:39

to date. And in a

6:42

study that was done and published in the

6:44

Lancet, the COVID has

6:47

taken its toll on reducing life expectancy in

6:49

over 200 countries, and

6:51

that the pandemic is responsible for

6:54

the most severe drops in life expectancy seen in 50

6:56

years, meaning we have made

6:58

progress in medical disease and cancers and

7:00

things like that, where we had improved

7:02

life expectancy and we actually saw a

7:05

decline for the first time. And

7:08

then what I'd like to do is also just

7:10

give some homage to I would say

7:12

probably tens of millions, maybe

7:14

more. Norm, we don't

7:16

know who are dealing with disability

7:19

from long COVID. And

7:21

so I think that as

7:23

much as I would love to say like, and

7:26

I'm careful with our words, we've had for

7:28

called words matter for reasons, like COVID

7:31

isn't behind us. Like what may be

7:33

behind us is our days of

7:35

mis, our

7:38

days of an administration kind

7:40

of literally abusing like

7:43

the public health system and spreading

7:46

misinformation, being responsible for that.

7:49

But this virus is not behind us. And I

7:51

think certainly what I would argue is that

7:54

because of our desire as a country, maybe as

7:56

a world to just say like, everything's in

7:58

the past, hey, could... The job

8:00

that we're not really taking. Honor.

8:03

Of the fact that we've seen so many

8:05

like I said, I don't even know tens

8:07

of millions of people live. And of the

8:09

A Sex And the not to mention. I.

8:12

Would even quantify. This is billions of people

8:14

who have been touched in some way with

8:17

having a death. Or you know, I think

8:19

I think President Biden said it best and

8:21

I forget which speech it was. Norm.

8:24

I think it was seen a like your

8:26

i'm Now We're I can't remember as one

8:28

of his early speeches. It could have been

8:30

on the time when him and Vice President

8:32

Harris a last at the time. Before the

8:34

inauguration did the like from a memorial.

8:37

With the hundred thousand honoring that hundred thousand

8:39

that had died which you know, can you

8:41

imagine that? that's what we thought would be

8:43

the worst of. And and

8:45

when they did that, I remember Biden saying

8:48

something to the effectively. Yeah. There's

8:50

one less person elected to holiday

8:52

table In on and in in

8:54

most families. And so I think that's

8:56

an accurate way of color thinking about

8:58

how it's affected people. So. I

9:01

just hope listeners like I again I I It's

9:03

hard for you and I'd ever say this is

9:05

affected one hundred percent of the world but it

9:07

has and in I think this is like of.

9:10

Pretty important in time to both reflect

9:12

that then. I hope there's a little

9:14

bit of like a reminder that it

9:16

didn't have to be this way. And.

9:19

Leadership matters in and I know that

9:22

for myself. It's no secret that you

9:24

and I definitely wanted to buy into

9:26

when that twenty twenty election. But

9:29

I mean I literally thought that

9:31

like. Billions. Of lives could

9:33

have been on line and they were. And

9:35

so it was a very. For

9:38

me, you know personally and professionally,

9:40

there could be no more important

9:42

statement about like votes Matter. Then.

9:45

That sad it for titular election and I can't

9:47

help but think that were somewhat in the same

9:49

to this and now. I agree

9:52

and I mean I would when get a

9:54

little twist to this is certainly we have.

9:56

Huge numbers with the good A.

9:59

We. Don't hear. The any idea what it'll mean.

10:02

Ten. Or twenty years down the road.

10:04

But I know people who are continuing

10:06

to struggle. Years. After having

10:08

a bout. But what we also

10:10

know is that mental health crises

10:13

that we have in America. Are

10:17

being exacerbated dramatically in the

10:19

aftermath, and cove it. And.

10:22

It's kids who missed out

10:24

on development, social and otherwise

10:26

when they were in school.

10:29

Is. Ah, We.

10:31

Know what happens with Pandemics

10:33

of his sword? There is

10:35

a surge in a serious

10:38

brain diseases like Schizophrenia. Because.

10:40

Of all the stress that added

10:42

on for people who might be

10:45

vulnerable otherwise and those are going

10:47

to reverberate for a very long

10:49

time to com and we do

10:51

not have. The. Personnel

10:54

or the treatments available to

10:56

deal with all of that.

10:58

The reverberations are enormous and

11:01

we can't ignore either the

11:03

reality that by sewing. The.

11:06

Playing Field: With.

11:08

These lies and doubts

11:10

about masks and vaccines.

11:13

That. When we have the next.

11:17

Deadly. Virus that comes along.

11:19

The. Next pandemic. All.

11:22

Of the public health measures that one

11:24

would want to take. Are

11:27

not going to be available. There's

11:29

simply not going to work and. Ah,

11:31

it's another the. The reality

11:34

is that when you poison.

11:36

The. System. As. Trump

11:38

and his cronies have done.

11:40

And as the pernicious Robert

11:43

F. Kennedy, Jr. is continuing

11:45

to do, That. We're

11:47

going to end up with. A.

11:50

Repercussions. For of

11:53

very very long time,

11:55

they have basically destroyed

11:57

the ability. To. work

12:00

our way through future

12:03

issues and created opportunities for

12:06

more deaths. Visit

12:31

thedsrnetwork.com/buy and enter code DSR network

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one word to receive 25% off. That's

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thedsrnetwork.com/buy and

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act now and thank you very

12:59

much for your support. Yeah,

13:02

absolutely. It's not just opportunities for

13:04

more deaths, but it's also

13:08

undermining the very infrastructure

13:10

with which people are

13:13

trying to... I

13:15

mean, the CDC, we can probably spend hours

13:17

just discussing things that people could have done

13:19

better all around no matter what the party

13:21

affiliation. In fact, I would

13:23

say that most of the employees of the

13:25

CDC have no partner career scientists for

13:28

public health officials. There were a lot

13:30

of things that could have done better. And I do think that there

13:32

is an ownership in that. But one

13:34

thing I think that's been destructive

13:36

has been this constant undermining of

13:38

science, period. I think everything you just

13:41

said is kind of echoed by the fact

13:43

that, I mean, literally, Norm,

13:45

I could sit here and talk about, you

13:47

know, 30 randomized control studies, literally

13:50

billions of patients dose with vaccines,

13:52

literally not just the trial patients,

13:54

but now we've got literally what

13:56

we call, you know, billions of patients

13:58

with real world evidence. We couldn't think

14:01

of possibly better evidence. And

14:03

what do we do? At the same time, we're like,

14:05

well, I mean, that doesn't, you know, vaccines,

14:07

vaccines cause disease. That's

14:09

the rumors and the most

14:12

popular podcasts. You know, I

14:14

wish people would say like, it's our podcast.

14:17

And unfortunately, some of the most kind

14:19

of downloaded and popular podcasts have been

14:22

the ones that spread this very misinformation.

14:24

So it's hard to be a scientist

14:27

working in these fields and

14:30

not feel like you're just getting the wind knocked out of

14:32

you at each kind of turn of the

14:34

corner. So maybe we can, let's maybe

14:36

let's try to shift gears

14:38

because with COVID came some

14:40

positive. And I mean that in

14:42

a serious way that it's hard to think about things

14:45

that we've done or things that we've learned. And

14:47

so maybe we can reflect on things

14:49

that are positive. I'll say a couple of

14:51

things. One is kind of

14:53

reigniting my relationships with people, including

14:56

you. I think that this is

14:59

an important point to reflect on that COVID

15:01

has made me in particular

15:04

kind of want to make intentional time

15:06

for, I would just say

15:08

people I really like and respect and

15:10

that's not necessarily something I gave as much time

15:13

for norm. And so I took it for granted

15:15

and I didn't, I was thought, okay, there's the

15:17

other day, maybe not one day I'll do that.

15:19

Maybe next time I'll do that. And there's no

15:21

reason for next time because today is today and

15:23

that's all we have. That's one. And

15:26

then two on like a macro level, we

15:28

can do hard things in healthcare. And so

15:30

I have faith that we can kind

15:33

of take a broken system and do

15:35

better overnight. Overnight, I

15:37

kid you not, we turn my

15:40

brick and mortar clinic into an entirely virtual clinic

15:42

and we did it. And we

15:44

did it across the country. So if

15:46

I had to say like something good came

15:48

out of it, it's that we can and

15:51

we must do better for patients. We

15:53

can't rest on our laurels of

15:56

just clicking on telehealth and saying everything will

15:58

be fine. That

16:00

was an incredible positives. Hub.

16:02

of you norm any any

16:04

things you feel. Like

16:07

you would want to reflect on

16:09

an. That that. Are.

16:13

There things he he wouldn't what he would not

16:15

want to sacrifice that you want to keep from

16:17

covered. I think you

16:19

know exactly what you said in terms

16:21

of relationships. I have to say computer

16:24

that you know. People like

16:26

us are fortunate in the sense that.

16:29

We. Could survive and even

16:31

thrive through a pandemic of

16:33

the sword. With the resources

16:35

were. No, I could be

16:38

at home. I could do whatever I

16:40

needed to do. Virtually I could order

16:42

groceries. A

16:44

lot of others were not as fortunate,

16:46

but it certainly had an impact. and

16:48

how you look at the world, at

16:50

your own vulnerability, at the power and

16:52

importance of relationships. And I

16:54

don't have a week I mentioned in passing

16:57

a few minutes ago. But. It's.

16:59

Not just said, operation Warp

17:01

Speed enabled us to get.

17:04

What? Are pretty damn effective.

17:06

Vaccines and the other

17:09

medications. On

17:11

of incredibly sped up timetable.

17:14

But. It also helped to

17:16

create an infrastructure. Where. We

17:19

can move much more nimbly

17:21

when the next variant comes

17:23

along, or when something new

17:25

comes along. And it's a

17:27

great irony that of the

17:29

person who did this. A.

17:31

Has crashed it and d

17:33

legitimised it and as have

17:36

his cronies the But. We

17:39

are better prepared. In some ways

17:41

we won't be caught flat footed

17:43

a when we get the next

17:46

one coming around. Well, Let's talk

17:48

about some of the yeah cronies and

17:50

and then maybe we can merely didn't

17:52

have shown that kind of The latest

17:55

and greatest were some some of our

17:57

very good friends like Robert Kennedy Jr

17:59

and. And what he's been doing

18:01

this week that is not only used by

18:04

the way than one of the most destructive

18:06

people not just on vaccines, the on that

18:08

kind of point on science and this information

18:10

spreading and sadly using i think. The

18:13

Kennedy name and his very

18:15

unfortunate similarities in appearance to

18:17

very. Prominent. Relatives of his

18:20

that you've been using that as like

18:22

a platform of and in Hollywood Connections

18:24

from his wife as well as to

18:26

says kind of natural social network of

18:28

that's norm tell us about. Arcade

18:30

Juniors and six related to.

18:34

His choice for vice president. As well

18:36

as. Donald Trump and his. Posting

18:38

on Truth Social which I'm sure you and I

18:40

are waiting with bated breath to see what he's

18:43

posting their of it. At talk

18:45

with our listeners about what unfolded this

18:47

week around the vaccines and and other

18:49

events. You

18:51

know I remember I just going back

18:53

a ways. From. At a

18:56

rally with all of his faithful

18:58

around him. When. He began

19:00

to tout Operation Worth Speed and

19:02

the vaccines. And. Said

19:04

you know pretty good vaccines and

19:07

got booed which never happens at

19:09

his rallies He was taken aback

19:11

at of course would not address

19:13

it again. But then this past

19:15

week in an effort to tweak

19:18

Joe Biden. Have.

19:21

Touted. Operation Warp Speed and

19:23

all of the great work but

19:25

they did with Vaccines and once

19:27

again got enormous pushback from his

19:30

faithful The One Area. Usually.

19:32

Trump says. Black is

19:35

white and his coat followers say

19:37

yes, black is white Then he

19:39

says why does black and they

19:41

come back and say that. But.

19:43

He managed to. In. Tokyo

19:45

People with this idea

19:47

that the vaccines are

19:49

not just worthless, but

19:51

deadly. That. A

19:54

even he can't escape that. Then

19:56

you have vaccine the

19:58

lawyer Robert. Kennedy Jr., who

20:00

at times in the past has said, I'm

20:04

not anti-vaccine. And

20:06

then his own words and his own efforts have

20:08

been brought up to him. The

20:12

organization that he created,

20:14

a sort of earth-sap scientific organization

20:17

that does a bunch

20:19

of gobbledygook to

20:21

cast doubt on vaccines, said

20:23

the polio vaccine doesn't

20:26

work because it's not

20:28

effective. And

20:30

there was a story this week about

20:34

a man in his 80s with a life

20:36

of great accomplishments who had gotten

20:39

polio as a young child before

20:41

the polio vaccine

20:44

that Jonas Salk developed had become

20:46

available and was in an

20:49

iron lung for over 75 years, just died.

20:53

And I was saying before we began

20:55

that among, I have a

20:58

few vivid memories of my early childhood,

21:01

but it's as if it

21:03

happened yesterday. I remember standing

21:05

in line in my third

21:07

grade classroom while the nurse

21:10

was administering the polio vaccine

21:13

and being scared to death and

21:15

hearing the screams of kids as they

21:18

got their shot and then going

21:20

up there and the needle looked like it

21:22

was the size of a baseball bat. But

21:27

it eradicated polio. And

21:29

then when Saban came along with something even

21:32

better, it was one of the great public

21:34

health accomplishments of the 20th century. And

21:37

now we're getting people undermining that.

21:39

We're seeing polio come back in

21:41

small ways, but it could get

21:43

larger. And then we've got the

21:46

measles outbreak in Florida with

21:48

a surgeon general in Florida,

21:50

a DeSantis crony, who

21:52

is an absolute quack, basically

21:55

casting doubt on all vaccines.

21:58

We have places where we can get the vaccine. The A

22:00

we have trump. Saying

22:02

that. Of he will

22:04

make sure that. They. Take

22:06

away federal funds. From.

22:08

Places from schools that

22:11

require vaccines. For.

22:13

Tetanus. For oh, been

22:15

cause for all of the

22:18

different childhood ailments and measles

22:20

that we have managed to

22:23

basically wipe off. The

22:25

face of our earth and they will all

22:28

come back. Because. Of

22:30

Rod the Santas, Donald Trump. And.

22:32

All of the cronies that he has.

22:35

Who. For their own political

22:37

benefit, continue to spread

22:39

misinformation and disinformation. And.

22:41

Then you have our of King

22:44

Jr. A floating the name of

22:46

Aaron Rodgers as a potential running

22:48

mate of his. The.

22:51

A Hall of fame quarterback

22:53

who is a conspiracy theorist.

22:56

Who. Lied about vaccines And

22:58

who has become a vaccine?

23:01

Deny your. And. It just

23:03

shows how our society. Has.

23:06

Lost his standards and is deteriorating

23:08

that a buffoon like that. Could.

23:11

Be on a national political ticket,

23:13

Or. His job is

23:15

so just a pretty unsettling. As

23:18

it's it's not as unsettling, but it's

23:20

also kind of fun. You know we'll We'll

23:22

talk about the function of the house.

23:24

And our members sex and next. but

23:27

it's a reminder as. It

23:29

is didn't have been this way. Norm, it's

23:31

it's it just isn't and didn't have to

23:33

be this way. And by the way, some

23:35

owners there's like there's there's a there's a

23:37

lot of blame. I guess. Or maybe I'll put into

23:40

the marked. For death

23:42

productive way. A lot of accountability to

23:44

go around. And I think that you and

23:46

I have called for on this very pod as

23:48

well as. On are you know what

23:50

I'll call our current Pa The Deep

23:53

State Radio Podcast. We have called

23:55

for of I did Nine Eleven had

23:57

the commission on covered with T Swift.

24:00

called for an incredible,

24:02

like, there's just, there's

24:05

no end to the desire

24:07

for accountability, yet what

24:09

do we have? What do we have,

24:11

Norm? What we have is the House,

24:13

and we'll wrap now and maybe shift

24:15

to our members section on the House,

24:17

but we've got the House hauling in

24:19

everyone from Tony Fauci

24:21

to, you know, the Deputy

24:24

Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration,

24:26

taking them through over the coals, their

24:29

handlings on COVID and gain

24:31

of function theory and research, and

24:33

wasn't this the federal government just

24:35

concocting, you know, coronavirus in their

24:37

backyard for the benefit of Tony Fauci's

24:39

publicity? Like the kind of cockamamie

24:42

and nain things that I wouldn't let

24:44

my seven-year-old get away with, we're

24:47

doing on, you know, on

24:49

national TV, which is another

24:51

accountability. The

24:53

media, I was frankly shocked and

24:55

saddened that there was nothing kind

24:57

of honoring the four years of this anniversary

25:00

yesterday, and there was like a mention here

25:02

and there, we're gonna spend our

25:04

entire time on this pod, we have talking about

25:06

it, but Norm, you don't

25:08

go through something this devastating.

25:11

Look at how 9-11 has changed our lives.

25:13

By the way, I'm not trying to make

25:15

any approximation to the devastation that 9-11 inflicted,

25:19

but look at the changes that we made

25:21

in kind of the aftermath of 9-11 and

25:24

how that's become kind of permanent,

25:26

yet everything you and I just

25:28

spoke about that could actually have

25:30

saved lives, math, vaccines, simple education,

25:34

that's gone by the wayside. Like all we have

25:36

are remnants of signs that you can't get off

25:38

of a floor or a wall, telling people to

25:40

keep six feet apart, right? So

25:43

I think there's something, I just

25:45

wanna kind of close, wanna

25:47

thank you, Norm, for allowing this space to

25:49

do this, but I think that we need

25:51

to, we can't forget, I guess

25:53

that's probably the best way to put it. And

25:58

Any closing thoughts, Norm? Anything

26:00

anything we want, To. Give listeners before

26:02

we put it or members section. But.

26:06

You know you raise the Nine Eleven

26:08

analogy in you're right, It's not a

26:10

a an analogy and yet. You.

26:13

Know three thousand plus people

26:15

died recently. Tragically, it's destroyed

26:18

large numbers of lives of

26:20

their families and loved ones

26:23

who remained. With. Enormous holes

26:25

in their lives. We. Had

26:27

a million people die of

26:30

coated? And it

26:32

and and you're exactly

26:34

right. This. Should have

26:36

been. A day of

26:38

enormous reflection by all of

26:40

our media and others. Ah,

26:44

The. Losses that we face in the

26:46

society. Not to mention all of those

26:48

with long coated. On

26:50

why and how we

26:52

failed people. On

26:54

how we continue to fail them and what

26:56

lessons we can learn and there's nothing. It's.

26:59

Really years old? Yet another tragedy

27:01

piled upon a tragedy. While

27:04

we're gonna try to keep making sure

27:07

people don't forget and I know you

27:09

and I certainly haven't seen that Part

27:11

of our responsibilities yourself are gonna do

27:13

that and do it often on this

27:15

pod and and we're going to keep

27:18

people of prize of best science or

27:20

thank you thank you for listening. Thanks

27:22

to everyone for joining us. Please help

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Producer The Ds or Network is Chris

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