0:00

Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush

0:02

here. Welcome to Work in Progress,

0:05

where I talked to people who inspire me

0:07

about how they got to where they are and

0:09

where they think they're still going. Whip

0:23

Smartie's. We are releasing a

0:25

special bonus episode today

0:27

because there is a major election

0:30

on Tuesday, March three. Have you heard people

0:32

talking about Super Tuesday? That's

0:34

what's up. And to my Los Angeles

0:37

friends, we need you all to vote.

0:39

If you're not in l A, you should check to

0:41

see what local elections are coming up for you

0:43

because they really really

0:46

matter, and they matter especially

0:48

when it comes to selecting our judges

0:50

guys, which brings me to today's

0:53

special guest, Tom Parsikian,

0:55

who is running for l A Superior

0:57

Court judge. He's bright, he's

1:00

honest, he has deep integrity

1:02

and over thirty years of experience that would

1:04

make him such a valuable

1:07

and much needed addition to our

1:09

judicial system. We need people

1:11

like him to be part of our government. So take

1:13

a listen, find out how we got to

1:15

know each other, why he's such an amazing

1:18

guy, and then get out to the polls and votes.

1:20

Every vote counts. Hi,

1:26

Tom, Hello, I'm so excited

1:29

that you're here today. I am thrilled

1:31

to be here. So for listeners

1:34

at home, Tom parseki

1:36

In is one of the dad's in my

1:38

friend group and also happens to be running

1:41

for judge here in in Los

1:43

Angeles County, and you're

1:46

one of my favorite people to have a holiday

1:48

party with and also to talk about the state

1:51

of the Union with. And

1:53

I'm just really excited that we get to unpack

1:55

all of this stuff today. Yeah, I'm really happy

1:57

to be here. So you and

1:59

I first met because your daughter, Lauren

2:02

is one of my best friends. And

2:05

I remember the first time I came

2:07

over for a football Sunday at at

2:09

your house. You and your wife Deb and

2:12

you guys are just the most gracious

2:14

hosts always, And

2:17

you know, even as a pack of kids

2:19

who are now adults, some of whom have

2:21

kids of their own, we love coming home

2:24

to hang with you guys. A beautiful

2:26

granddaughter. God, she's just the

2:28

cutest, stories, the best, And

2:31

something that was really really special this

2:33

summer, we myself

2:36

and Aaron, your son in law, and Lauren and our

2:39

friend Michelle and Brian, a

2:41

whole a whole bunch of really lovely humans

2:43

helped throw a sort of kickoff

2:46

event for your campaign. And it was

2:48

so special

2:50

to hear everyone

2:52

telling stories about, you know, their relationship

2:54

to you, and their relationship to your family and

2:57

and all of this sort of really

2:59

beautiful, a personal stuff.

3:02

And we got to talk about why judge

3:05

ships are so important and

3:07

what we should all really be aware of going

3:10

into these election years, about how the judges

3:12

that are in these court systems around

3:14

the country really helped

3:17

to determine the law

3:19

not just for their city or their state, but

3:21

but really of of how the legal landscape

3:23

looks in America. And it

3:26

was such a cool learning experience for me.

3:28

And that's why I wanted you to come and talk

3:30

to everyone who's listening to the podcast. Yes,

3:33

I'm so happy to have a discussion

3:35

about this particular subject

3:37

because you're absolutely right. You

3:39

know, when people go into the election booth,

3:42

the one thing they're really foggy

3:44

about is when they get to the slate of judicial

3:46

candidates. They don't know who they are,

3:48

They don't know what their background is, and they

3:50

either don't vote at all, or they might

3:53

vote because somebody has an interesting looking name

3:55

or what have you. I mean, I've actually heard voters

3:57

tell me that but the one thing they don't know

4:00

really is what to do. And

4:03

we've tried to run a campaign to inform

4:05

voters about judicial elections

4:07

because you're absolutely right, they affect.

4:10

You know, politicians who run

4:12

for elective office, they come and

4:14

go. Some of them have term limits they

4:16

have to go by law, Others when

4:19

they retire or what have you, but they

4:21

come and go. Judges are on the

4:23

bench forever, whether or not they're

4:25

on the federal bench where they're pointed

4:28

and then confirmed, they're there for life. But

4:30

even in state court, you have a judge

4:32

on the superior court sitting for a term of six

4:34

years. But rarely, if ever, does

4:37

a sitting incumbent judge ever get

4:39

elected out of office. It just doesn't happen.

4:42

So they're really almost lifetime appointments

4:45

as well. And judges make decisions

4:47

that affect people's day today

4:49

lives. And I tell people, you

4:52

know, in Congress or in the state legislatures,

4:54

they pass laws and they affect

4:56

people's lives. But judges interpret

4:58

the law. So when there's a dispute

5:00

about something, they the final word

5:03

is in the judiciary. So if

5:05

the House of Representatives is in a

5:07

fight with the Senator, what have you about something,

5:10

or whether people are challenging

5:12

a state past law or a federal past

5:14

law, at the end of the day, they get the

5:16

final word in the judiciary

5:19

that and really that's what upholds the

5:21

power and this stability in our government is

5:23

that we have a place, a final place

5:25

out of the three co equal branches

5:28

of government, where you can go to get

5:30

the final word, and that

5:32

word becomes the law because

5:34

they're interpreting the law and they're telling you what the

5:36

law is. And so the

5:39

decisions that they make are

5:41

so profound. You know,

5:43

I call the superior court, which

5:46

is a trial court, the court of consequence

5:49

because it's where people get

5:51

decisions judgments that affect

5:54

them so profoundly. It's so

5:56

consequential, you know, So

5:58

it can affect their personal freedom.

6:00

So somebody standing before you, there's

6:03

a judge sitting on the bench, one person, and

6:05

he or she is going to make a decision

6:07

that could affect this person's very liberty.

6:10

Or they could be making a decision that could affect their

6:12

financial security in a profound way,

6:14

could be a way that's almost

6:17

dispositive of their security

6:19

financial security, it could

6:21

affect their reputation. Those kinds

6:23

of decisions. It could affect their family relationships.

6:26

All these things happen in a courtroom, and

6:28

it's not a panel of people. It's a

6:31

trial judge that's sitting in

6:33

judgment. And those judges,

6:36

even when there's a jury there, have tremendous

6:38

effect on the jury by the decisions

6:40

that they make during a trial

6:42

proceeding because the juries, you

6:45

know, have trust in the judge and

6:47

they can lead a jury's thinking it a little bit

6:49

of a way. And so those

6:52

decisions, even with the jury are

6:54

going to have a profound effect on the people standing

6:56

before a judge in the courtroom. So what

6:58

I tell people is think about out this. When

7:01

you go to vote in any given election,

7:03

you're voting for somebody running for presidentary

7:06

rooting somebody running for governor

7:08

or whatever it may be. But a

7:10

judge, that person may

7:13

affect you directly because

7:15

the first time you ever have a brush up against

7:17

the law or are involved in any

7:20

legal proceeding could be standing in

7:22

a trial court. Some people

7:24

may only get there for traffic court, you

7:27

know, and never see a courtroom again.

7:30

But people end up in courtrooms

7:32

and it's kind of scary for them because there's

7:34

a lot on the line, so you want to

7:36

put people on the bench that have empathy

7:40

and understanding. And one

7:42

of the other things I tell people when I speak

7:44

is there's a difference between empathy

7:46

and sympathy. I mean, sympathy

7:49

is where you feel sorry for somebody.

7:51

Empathy means you've been

7:53

there, you feel that you know

7:55

what they're going through. And I really

7:58

think it's critically important that

8:00

judges have experienced life experience.

8:03

I think sometimes even on the

8:05

federal bench as well, judges that

8:07

are appointed or elected need

8:10

to have some years under their belt. I always get

8:12

concerned when I see somebody a little

8:15

bit too young and ending up on

8:17

the bench, not because they may not have the intellectual

8:19

capacity or the you

8:21

know, innate tools that they need,

8:23

but you do need to live life to

8:26

see people, to experience even travel,

8:28

getting to see different cultures around the world.

8:31

You need to be around a little bit so that when you're

8:33

sitting on the bench and you're making

8:35

a determination about whether a witness

8:38

is telling the truth or not. And judges

8:40

do that. They make determinations on whether

8:43

you know, particular testimony is truthful.

8:46

They do findings of fact, and they make determinations

8:49

like that you want that judge

8:51

to be empathetic, to be intelligence,

8:54

certainly, but to have lived a little bit

8:56

so that they understand life experiences.

8:59

So that is something that makes me so curious

9:01

because you've come to this place

9:04

in your life where

9:06

you realize that that adage, if not us, then

9:08

who really rings true for

9:10

you? And I'm

9:13

curious about the beginning,

9:16

you know, how how we got here, because

9:18

you are an incredibly

9:20

empathetic and incredibly intellectual person

9:23

who does have so much experience under your

9:25

belt. But before we get into why you're

9:27

running, I'm curious

9:30

where did it all start? Can Can you tell us

9:32

where you grew up? Yeah, I

9:34

grew up in New Jersey. I

9:36

was the son of a

9:38

wonderful man, my father, who passed away twelve

9:41

years ago. He was such a beloved

9:43

public servant. He was.

9:46

He was a highly decorated World

9:48

War to combat veteran. Yeah, he was.

9:50

He was the real deal, my dad.

9:53

He at the age of twenty one. And

9:56

I think about that, you know, I have three children.

9:58

I have a son who's twenty six, and I think about

10:01

somebody who's even five years younger than that. In

10:03

nineteen forty two, he

10:07

enlisted in the Army

10:09

Air Corps because they didn't have an air force at the

10:11

time. It was part of the army, and he

10:13

became a pilot, a navigator,

10:15

and obamadere all wrapped in one, and he trained,

10:18

you know, all over this country before going

10:20

overseas, and then he was stationed

10:22

at Okinawa and he remained there

10:24

for two and a half years because he

10:27

actually didn't come back until nineteen forty

10:29

six because he was on the occupying force

10:31

to keep the peace. So he was in the

10:33

war for a long time. He was a combat veteran.

10:36

His forward squadrons, these flights

10:39

of of of of flyers would

10:42

go out on these dangerous missions where sometimes

10:44

a third of them would not return, and he

10:46

was leading them because he was became an officer

10:48

leading these forward squadrons in battle

10:51

and bronze stars

10:54

multiply of all his records. He has an

10:56

incredible career fighting

10:58

for this country and came back

11:01

from that, I think a different person um

11:04

in terms of you know, when you

11:06

give up your life for the country

11:09

like that and fight and see life

11:11

and death, you know, over and over again

11:13

for years. He came back and wanted

11:15

to commit himself to public service. So

11:18

I grew up in New Jersey in a household

11:20

where I had a father who came

11:22

from that background. He was born in nine

11:26

He grew up during the Depression, and he

11:28

was the child of refugees.

11:31

My grandparents were from Armenia

11:35

and they escaped the Armenian

11:37

Massacre of nineteen fifteen to

11:39

nineteen twenty, the Ottoman Empire massacre,

11:42

which, by the way, incredibly

11:45

I'm running for judge in seat number

11:47

one fifty one zero,

11:49

and why that means a lot to me is

11:52

a quality kismet because I'm

11:54

running in seat one fifty and

11:56

the US Senate just passed Resolution

11:59

one recognizing the

12:01

Armenian genocide a month ago.

12:04

And this happened after I

12:06

was placed into seat one fifty.

12:09

And you know, it's just one of those things

12:11

about whether you believe in numbers and

12:13

how they affect things in life. You know, that

12:16

number was so impactful. I

12:18

got a call the next day from a sitting judge

12:21

here in Los Angeles who was

12:23

born in Armenia, has an incredible

12:25

background getting herself to this country

12:28

and her education and whatnot, and she's a

12:30

judge here in l A. And she called me and she was emotional

12:33

because I'm running in seat number one fifty

12:36

and Resolution one fifty just passed

12:38

for the first time recognizing that the

12:40

Armenian genocide actually occurred,

12:43

happened at all, and it's been a

12:45

long fight for the Armenian community

12:48

to get that recognition. And

12:50

it's important, yeah, incredibly

12:52

important to honor what communities have gone

12:55

through. And it strikes me as so I

12:58

mean moving really that you're you

13:01

know, your father enlisted to fight

13:03

against a genocide

13:06

that was happening during World War two, to fight

13:09

against what was being done to the

13:11

Jews, and that you come

13:13

from this heritage of having escaped

13:16

the genocide of your own people. Yeah,

13:18

and incredibly Hitler and

13:20

he wrote this down. It's not just anecdotal

13:24

when he tried to rationalize

13:27

what he was going to do, which was trying to exterminate

13:30

a race of people, that being the Jewish culture

13:33

and race at that time, that he

13:36

said, whoever remembered the Armenian

13:38

genocide? Yeah, he actually

13:40

wrote that that's in history. So he used

13:43

the Armenian massacre, which wasn't

13:46

one and a half million Armenians were killed.

13:48

They were marched out into the desert, men

13:51

and boys were separated from their mothers

13:53

and daughters, and they were summarily

13:56

executed, tortured, murdered.

13:58

I mean, it's it's if you read the history,

14:01

it's it's it's very hard to even talk about.

14:03

My grandparents were from the cities of airs

14:05

Um and Dick were on our Guart, which are

14:08

two cities which are now in eastern

14:10

Turkey but at the time were western Armenia.

14:12

There were particularly hard hit I

14:14

mean really just tremendous atrocities.

14:17

So Hitler looked back on that

14:19

and said, woh that happened. We're

14:22

you know, now we're what twenty years

14:24

later or what have you, And and he went

14:26

about trying to exterminate,

14:29

uh, you know, a race based

14:31

on that history. So to have it

14:33

not be recognized in this country

14:35

that it even existed was something that

14:38

the community there in the community

14:40

fought for. And I will say I'm really thrilled

14:42

that both the House in resolution

14:44

to and then the Senate

14:47

by unanimous consent, which

14:49

means there were no objections, and that's

14:52

by part, you know, bipartisan. I think it's fifty seven

14:55

right now, Republican. That

14:57

Senate passed unanimously resolution

15:00

one fifty to recognize irmin

15:02

and genocide. So my father, as

15:05

you said, you know, it was a son of refugees, joined

15:08

and grew up during the Depression, So grew up during

15:10

a time where there was hardship, tremendous

15:12

struggle. His father passed away when he

15:14

was ten years old. So his mother

15:17

raised four boys, the eldest of

15:19

which died on the kitchen table, bleeding

15:22

to death from a ton selectomy. Was

15:24

yeah, at the time they did that, they gave you know, the

15:27

operations in the kitchen back in the nineteen

15:29

late teens, I guess or early twenties. She

15:32

lost her eldest son on

15:34

the kitchen table, never recovered

15:37

from it. I will honestly tell you that

15:40

as I hear that, you know the history

15:42

of my family, something she never

15:44

quite got over. And she had three more

15:47

boys, so she raised them, my father

15:49

being the youngest born in and

15:52

had to raise them. As a seamstress in

15:55

New York City. She was one of these

15:57

sweatshop workers that you see in

15:59

the old documentaries or or here

16:02

about in stories, women working

16:04

who could only get protections eventually from

16:07

the garment workers unions who were trying to like

16:09

hell to organize and get rights for

16:11

people who were working for pennies an

16:13

hour. That was my grandmother working

16:16

to make enough money to raise

16:18

three boys. Couldn't do it because so her

16:20

eldest son had to work as well, you

16:22

know, to raise his brothers along with

16:24

with my grandmother. So

16:27

it's just an incredible history to think that

16:30

my grandfather grew up or my

16:32

father, I'm sorry, I grew up during

16:34

that time during the Depression, the

16:37

son of refugees who escaped a

16:39

genocide and then

16:41

said I'm going to fight for this country

16:45

at the age of twenty one, risked my

16:47

life for a country

16:50

that at that time he all he saw was, you

16:52

know, hardship in the depression,

16:55

and coming from a family who

16:57

had escaped, you know this this

16:59

heart horrific cars and

17:01

probably motivated him to

17:04

say he's in a better place and he's going to fight

17:06

for this better place and did.

17:09

And so I think that's what shaped his worldview.

17:12

Although I will say based

17:15

on reading his letters, his

17:17

voluminous letters, which

17:19

it is amazing that we actually have that

17:21

he wrote to his mother from overseas

17:24

during the war, and I have them

17:26

there, their scores of them

17:28

reading his letters to his mother. What

17:30

I came to to realize about my father

17:33

is this was who he was as

17:35

a person. He innately

17:38

was just a person with tremendous

17:41

empathy, integrity, and character.

17:44

I know, your good friend, Lauren, my daughter

17:47

knew my dad um in

17:49

her younger years and could tell you the

17:52

feeling that she got about him

17:54

as a human being. And so this is the kind

17:56

of person that I grew

17:59

up emulated and hoping to even

18:02

approach that kind of person. I

18:04

could never be him, But what a

18:06

what a standard to set, you know, And

18:09

it's so interesting and beautiful to me that

18:11

his standard. He

18:14

began so young, but he came home

18:16

to become a trial attorney, eventually a judge,

18:19

eventually a state senator in New Jersey.

18:22

And I wonder, you know, when you talk

18:24

about knowing that you wanted to strive

18:26

to be a man like your father, in

18:29

hindsight, do you think about the

18:32

the values he passed down, the lessons

18:34

that he taught to you. What what it

18:36

was like to watch him consistently

18:39

strive for deeper levels

18:42

of public service. Yes, I

18:44

did, because I watched him when he

18:46

was giving speeches as a young boy,

18:48

and it was so moving because I

18:51

would be watching people's faces in the audience

18:53

and the kind of love that

18:56

you could see from people when they saw

18:58

him speak. And I would listen to him

19:00

as a young boy growing up and watching

19:02

him out on the campaign trail, depending

19:04

on what he was doing. It was so inspiring

19:07

to me because I end

19:10

from his discussions with me one

19:12

on one, I would I learned

19:15

that, And I think this

19:17

is what gives me the facility to do this because

19:19

people say, well, how can you be a judge? I

19:21

mean, don't you bring biases and prejudice

19:24

that everybody has in everyday life to the bench.

19:26

How can you watch that away? And I

19:28

tell people, believe it or not, I can,

19:31

and it's it's hard to convince them because think

19:33

about that, how do you do that? But

19:35

I think it was from growing up seeing that and learning

19:38

that from my from my father. He

19:40

he he was the kind of person that

19:43

took everyone in at

19:45

face value, at face value, in other words,

19:48

there was no prejudices,

19:50

preconceived notions whatsoever.

19:53

And I watched this year after year

19:55

after year seeing him interact with people, amazed

19:58

how no matter what person's background,

20:01

no matter you know where they came from,

20:03

what their preferences, were, their gender,

20:05

their financial position, whatever it was.

20:08

He had such a big heart and such deep empathy

20:10

for people, and I could see when he interacted

20:13

with them that he took everyone for

20:15

who they were. There was no angle

20:18

whatsoever. And that's what I saw,

20:20

and that's what I feel grew inside

20:22

of me, you know, through learning from

20:25

him. So um, these are the

20:27

things that you know, you know, you

20:29

hope, you know you can do. UM

20:32

certainly in the courtroom. Do you have a

20:34

favorite memory of your dad? God,

20:37

there's so many memories, you know. I

20:39

think it's funny we're

20:41

talking about watching him make speeches and whatnot.

20:44

I think one of the memories

20:46

that I have that was so impactful, and

20:48

I might have spoken about it last August

20:51

when we did the kickoff event was

20:53

when my dad ran for governor back in the nineteen

20:56

sixties. He was endorsed by Robert Kennedy.

20:59

And the way I was talking

21:01

about him when he would make speeches and whatnot, you

21:03

know, Bobby Kennedy had this kind of effect

21:06

on people, and I think that's why they connected and

21:08

why he endorsed my

21:10

dad, and they were kind

21:12

of similar kindred spirits in that way.

21:15

And you know, when

21:17

my dad. I'll never forget. In June,

21:20

I was about ten years old, and

21:23

you know, we were on the East coast and

21:25

we lost Kennedy here in

21:27

Los Angeles, I think it was June

21:30

six, downtown l A at the Ambassador

21:32

Hotel. And

21:34

I remember the next morning

21:38

both my parents coming in my room and I was in bed,

21:40

and woke me up to tell me

21:42

that what had happened, that we lost

21:45

Bobby Kennedy. And

21:48

it was like it was almost

21:50

like a thickness in the air. You

21:52

could feel it. It was I

21:54

felt at that moment that there was it was like the

21:57

world that kind of paused on its axis

21:59

in a sense that sounds trite

22:02

maybe, but he really did. There was there

22:04

was this feeling that something major

22:06

had changed at that moment, that we

22:08

were going to be set off into a different trajectory

22:12

from that moment on, things were going to change.

22:14

And it felt a little unsettling at the time.

22:17

But my dad and this was a tremendous

22:21

moment, you know, for our family and

22:24

the country in the world, sitting

22:26

down and talking to me about and

22:28

I was only ten years old about

22:30

what had just happened. Because this was a

22:32

violent episode where we lost a

22:34

beloved figure and talking

22:37

to me about how do you process

22:40

that and move on to

22:42

a young child? Um, And

22:45

you know, his his strength

22:50

at this moment of tremendous

22:52

national sadness and

22:54

his grace in a sense at

22:56

this time gave me a feeling

22:59

that you can process

23:01

these kinds of things and try

23:03

to move on from them in a positive way.

23:06

UM, even when you have tragedies like this,

23:09

And because sometimes you can get really down on

23:11

some and really feel despair, which

23:13

I think today in the country, I

23:15

see that as I go around on the campaign trail, I see

23:18

a lot of despair and people kind

23:20

of feel like they're losing hope

23:22

or maybe they don't have hope. And

23:25

so I think it's important, like he kind

23:27

of rallied my little ten year old body

23:29

at the time not to feel such

23:31

despair and to somehow know that the world was

23:33

not going to end at that moment. And

23:35

so when I see that out there when I'm

23:37

just doing my thing here, I

23:39

try to bring that into the room.

23:42

You know that there are things that we can do

23:44

that, you know, to not sit back

23:47

and just let it go, but to

23:49

really try to make a change for the positive

23:51

and don't despair and lose hope. So

23:53

I guess to answer your question, I was like to circle

23:55

back to the question after a long

23:57

answer, but to answer the call

23:59

of your question, it's that it's I guess it's

24:02

my That memory was so profound and

24:04

how he handled it, and it was a teaching

24:06

moment for me that I can read to this day.

24:09

That's so beautiful and how

24:11

special that you get to channel

24:14

one of your favorite memories of your dad when you're out

24:16

doing your own work. What

24:18

about your mom? What was she like? Oh?

24:21

Wow, my mom was

24:23

you know first, all raised four kids. I

24:25

was the youngest of four, three older sisters.

24:29

She and my dad were

24:31

married in nine fifty all

24:34

the until the day he died in two thous of

24:36

course, a long long marriage, fifty

24:38

eight years until he passed away. She's still alive

24:40

today. She's going on ninety three

24:42

years of age. Mama. She

24:45

is an inspiration as

24:48

she gets up in the morning and drives

24:50

herself to the senior center to

24:53

meet with her friends every morning. At

24:55

the age of ninety two going on ninety three,

24:58

and she went in to Department

25:00

of Motor Vehicles last year to take her written

25:02

test and got a hundred percent on

25:05

this test at the age of ninety

25:08

one going on ninety two. It was such

25:10

it blew them away at the d m V so much that

25:12

they came out from the back room where they do these tests

25:15

to tell me that your mother just

25:17

got ad on a written

25:19

test. And they were so so shocked

25:21

by it. And so I told her, I said,

25:23

well, there's there's no question that

25:25

you are fully here on uh

25:28

and you were with us. So

25:31

she's a woman of great strong fortitude.

25:33

Her parents are an incredible

25:35

story. Her father came

25:37

to this country on a

25:40

boat across the sea from

25:42

Europe, landed on Ellis Island.

25:46

Yeah he really Okay,

25:49

well, how cool his name his

25:51

plaque is on the wall on Ellis Island

25:53

and he came through. It

25:56

would have been he came he was born in He

25:59

came were at the age of twelve. So

26:02

in nineteen he came across

26:04

the country at the age of twelve. He

26:07

had one relative here to be the contact.

26:10

The idea was, as many immigrants do

26:12

in this country, can

26:14

he work and send money back to

26:16

the old country to help his parents who were living

26:18

in impoverished at the time.

26:21

My grandfather worked basically

26:23

as an indentured servant as a young

26:26

child for a family on a farm

26:28

for several years. Then we got

26:31

of age. He worked in the coal mines and

26:33

went to Western Pennsylvania, married

26:35

my grandmother at a very young age. My grandmother

26:37

was probably eighteen years old at the time

26:40

when they got married. And he worked

26:42

in the coal mines in western Pennsylvania

26:44

for several years until she felt

26:46

she was going to lose him in the minds and

26:48

convinced him to leave and

26:51

go to New York City where he worked

26:53

in heavy construction as an iron worker.

26:56

And he worked on the Empire State Building,

26:59

on the christ Are Building, Yes,

27:02

and those buildings have my grandfather's

27:05

hands in them. And he worked

27:07

in these iconic structures as

27:09

an immigrant to this country. And

27:13

boy was he a proud immigrant. Oh, my god,

27:16

working in New York in these in these

27:18

places. And my my grandfather was

27:20

a member of the original c i O. Before

27:23

it was the a f l C i OH, it was the Congress

27:25

of Industrial Organizations, which is what

27:28

that stands for. In the nineteen thirties,

27:30

I guess it was it became the a f L C i

27:32

OH. I think in nineteen fifty eight they merged,

27:34

but it was the c I O back in the nineteen

27:37

thirties. And I can tell you

27:39

that I probably wouldn't be sitting here today if

27:41

it wasn't for unions because between

27:43

my father's side and my garment

27:46

worker grandmother on one side, working

27:48

in the sweatshops in New York and the protections

27:51

that they fought for it to just get a wage

27:54

that you could survive on maybe, and

27:56

then my grandfather on the other side, who

27:58

was a coal miner and then iron worker

28:00

in New York, and the fights that

28:02

they wage back then

28:05

to try to get a living wage. That's

28:08

what they basically survived

28:10

because of those fights. I mean

28:13

people today, you know, you hear

28:15

people talk about unions and sometimes they try

28:17

to politicize them and denigrate them and

28:19

use them as a political weapon. Forget

28:21

about the politics. This is about survival.

28:24

These were people coming together to try to

28:27

see if you could survive, and they banded

28:29

together to try to fight

28:31

for that and about what's fair. And

28:33

it's so interesting because if I'm may

28:35

sidebars for a moment, I've

28:38

had people out on campaign trails ask me

28:40

why I'm so passionate about health care

28:42

and making sure that we have universal health

28:44

care and and that we treat our citizens

28:46

as well as we as they're treated in

28:48

other countries that are on par with us economically.

28:51

And I always remind people, I say, how

28:53

do you think I have healthcare? I'm an a union the

28:56

screen actors guilt that my union

28:59

provides my health care. And when I look

29:01

at the other union workers on sets, you

29:03

know, people think Hollywood's fancy. They forget that

29:05

there's like four award shows a year. But for the most

29:07

part, we're on sets and it's a bunch of union guys

29:09

on us, and we're a bunch of union

29:11

kids. And it's like I'm on sets with

29:13

the construction workers Union, with the transportation

29:16

unions, with the camera guys, and there everybody

29:20

is only there and only protected because

29:22

of these organizations. And

29:26

I feel like sometimes people

29:28

and especially people who maybe don't

29:31

have the family history that you do, forget

29:34

that the only reason any of us

29:36

has a shot even at a fair

29:38

shake is because they were They were

29:40

organized, because there were

29:42

workers who had the courage to organize and

29:45

fight for rights. You

29:47

know, it's the concept collective

29:50

bargaining is how they do

29:52

it. You're talking about either the Screen Actors

29:54

Guild or equity or what used

29:56

to be after SAG after that is an

29:58

a f L see i OH guilt and

30:01

that you know actors and actresses

30:04

who work for a certain period of time, then

30:06

maybe they don't work for a certain period of time. You know, most

30:08

actors are in and out of work,

30:11

and when they're if they didn't have the

30:13

healthcare afforded to them by the

30:15

a f L C I O screen

30:17

actors guilt say, for instance, they

30:20

wouldn't have healthcare, they wouldn't have basic

30:22

healthcare. And that's that the only

30:24

way, the only way they got that is under

30:27

the collective bargaining concept, the idea

30:29

that people because you can't do it alone, because

30:31

you're you're in an unequal bargaining

30:34

position. You know, you can't do it. So

30:36

you collect together with other people

30:38

as a group, so you have a little

30:40

bit of power, so you can equal you

30:42

can level out that table a little bit. It's like you've

30:44

got to get a group of David's to fight the gal as.

30:48

Yeah, and that's not a bad thing. You know, when

30:50

people talk about that, or they talk about

30:52

concepts of you might have heard of the term interest

30:54

group of liberalism. And the reason I bring

30:57

that up is because you know, people talk

30:59

about the the phrases conservative

31:01

and liberal and whatnot, and sometimes they don't really

31:03

know what it really means. But I

31:05

mean the terms like liberalism, Okay,

31:08

I mean the concept there was way

31:10

back people on

31:12

their own couldn't fight for

31:15

themselves because they didn't have the money or

31:17

the power to do that. So in

31:19

a capitalist society, which

31:21

is what our society is, and everybody wants

31:23

everyone to do well and succeed

31:26

as best as they can, but there are also

31:28

people who can't get

31:30

a leg up and can't survive. So how

31:32

do they do that? Well, they

31:34

grouped together with others, and that's

31:36

what interest groups are. It's the only way they

31:38

can do it. So they get together with others

31:41

and they collect together and try

31:43

to get a powerful voice as a group. That's

31:45

really all it is. It's not a negative

31:47

thing at all, and a lot of people try to cast

31:50

shade on that. You know, the concepts

31:52

of people gathering as

31:54

groups and fighting for their rights, whether

31:56

they're protesting, whether they're you know, in

31:59

the streets protesting, or whether they're collective

32:01

bargaining as a group or whatever. It is.

32:03

It's very American. You know,

32:05

it's something to be proud of that we

32:07

in our country can do that and

32:10

succeeded doing that and fight for those

32:12

things like getting an agreement

32:15

where you have healthcare. You know. So

32:17

these are you know, I don't you

32:19

know, as as a as running for judge,

32:22

as you know, it's nonpartisan, and you

32:24

know, I try to speak to all sides,

32:26

you know, Republicans and Democrats or what have

32:28

you. I try to tell them, don't

32:31

let yourselves be divided. You know,

32:33

you can have different opinions or whatnot, but don't hate

32:36

each other, you know, you know, because there

32:38

are a lot of forces out there that try to divide,

32:40

you know, in the country. So um,

32:42

you know, don't don't look at the other side as the boogeyman

32:45

or what have you. You know, try to you know,

32:47

understand each side. Of course, judges have to do

32:49

that when people come into the court, well,

32:51

and that's where that mixture of empathy and intellect

32:54

comes in. I side

32:56

tracked you. We were talking about your mom, and then we got

32:59

into into this stuff. But I think it's so cool

33:01

that you know, she grew up

33:04

with a father who helped to build

33:06

New York. What

33:09

what was her kind of role in

33:11

your family? What do you what do

33:13

you feel like you learned from your mom? Well, she was

33:15

the matriarch. I mean my mom was solid,

33:18

very strong woman. I mean that's why she's still

33:21

sharp as attack atragon on night, very

33:23

right, comes to very good stock.

33:25

I mean she's just really strong, bright

33:29

woman. So when I say matriarch,

33:32

you know, she raised four boys while

33:34

she had a husband, my dad, who was

33:37

you know, a judge at one time, who

33:40

was a senator at one time, a state

33:42

senator in you know, in New Jersey. He was the director

33:44

of motor vehicles, so he was he was

33:47

serving the public, which takes a lot

33:49

of your time, right, So she had to raise four

33:51

kids in a way that

33:53

we all felt everything was going

33:55

beautifully, you know, keeping things

33:58

together, and she did. You know, I

34:00

never felt at any time that

34:02

there was a lack of contact with my dad

34:04

or with my mom or anything like that. And that was her.

34:06

She was a very strong woman. You

34:09

know, I grew up as a feminist because I

34:11

grew up with three older sisters. I

34:13

had no brothers, and I actually have two

34:15

daughters and his son. So I'm just constantly

34:17

surrounded by by women. In fact,

34:20

even when we have cats and dogs, they always seem to be

34:22

female in my household. So no

34:24

matter what it is, and people say, are you a feminist?

34:26

Always, I guess I am because I grew

34:28

up in a in a in a female household,

34:30

and my mom was a very strong figure and still

34:33

is and so you

34:35

know, for me, I've always tried

34:38

to encourage women,

34:40

you know, to be involved, um, you know,

34:42

in politics and whatnot and make their voice

34:44

her. That's always been really important to me because

34:47

I'm surrounded by beautiful,

34:49

bright, intellectual women and

34:51

and they just seemed to always do the right thing and

34:53

know the right thing to do. So with

34:56

my mom, she raised us in

34:58

that kind of a household, you know, just you

35:00

know, everyone felt loved

35:03

cared for, you know that she was

35:05

always there and and she also

35:08

imparted that kind of empathy

35:10

and understanding for people, the same concepts

35:14

her and my dad. You know, it's really funny.

35:17

People don't believe me when I tell them this, but it's true.

35:19

My parents were married for fifty eight years

35:23

and I tell people that I

35:25

never saw them argue.

35:28

Now when I tell people that, they say, oh, well, that that means

35:31

they have argued behind closed doors, or that's

35:33

not possible, or that's they I've had people told

35:35

me that's not healthy, that that can't be

35:37

right, or whatnot. But it's

35:39

not that. These two

35:41

people. Sometimes two stars

35:44

come together from the sky

35:46

and there was some destiny there and

35:49

whatever the long term plan was for them

35:51

to come together, it happened.

35:54

And that just in my

35:56

life, there was just tremendous

35:58

love between them. And it wasn't a fake kind of instance

36:01

here love. I mean, this is true. I mean

36:03

it was just always there and there was just

36:05

no friction. So they got

36:07

along so well. They saw eye to eye just

36:10

on everything. They loved being together.

36:12

They loved traveling together. They loved each

36:14

other's company, so they loved traveling

36:17

with friends, but they love traveling together alone as

36:19

well because they loved each other's company.

36:21

So the household I grew up in was

36:23

that kind of household. And some people

36:25

say, well, Tom, that was unrealistic

36:28

household to grow up and you couldn't possibly,

36:31

you know, match that. But I've been married for

36:33

thirty five years and I

36:35

feel the same way about my wife, and

36:38

you know, I just you know, it can

36:40

happen and can be done. Um,

36:42

but I think, you know, to answer your question, though,

36:45

my mom, you know, set that kind

36:47

of feeling in our house with

36:50

our kids growing up, and and

36:52

I think it was just a great

36:54

home to be in. That's

36:56

so cool. Do you think that from an

36:58

early age you had an inkling you into following

37:00

your dad's footsteps. You

37:02

know, it's interesting. I had two paths.

37:05

I had the path my academic path. Um.

37:07

You know, through high school I was doing well and I

37:09

ended up studying undergraduate at Harvard University

37:14

before being out

37:16

of school for two years in between, when

37:19

I was on a soap opera in New York. So

37:23

you're wondering what how did that happened? I know,

37:25

but it's true. What can I tell you? Because

37:28

I was doing plays in high school and

37:30

that was so you know, I was doing really

37:32

well. But then I was also in the arts. And for

37:35

some reason in this country, never the Twain

37:37

shall meet. I don't know what it is about our culture.

37:39

You know, you go to Europe and the arts are

37:41

so encouraged, you know, by the government.

37:45

You know, they're encouraged, you know, whether it's in France

37:47

or whatever it is, you know, they encourage the arts.

37:49

You know here they do, but not really. I

37:51

mean it's like, you know, you you have to have

37:54

private foundations help fund

37:56

the arts and whatnot, and and there's kind

37:58

of a concept of a few ling

38:00

I think here now that we're talking

38:03

about the arts, and I'll just tell you, you

38:05

know, it's kind of like, well, you're just

38:07

gonna we're not gonna regard you as

38:09

an artist until you make it quote end

38:11

quote. You know that's not so true

38:14

elsewhere here, you know, you get that feeling.

38:16

So being in the arts, which

38:19

I was in high school and also doing well

38:21

academically, was to divergent

38:23

paths that it was

38:25

not something it was something I had to make a decision.

38:27

So I got into a really good

38:29

college and there I was studying up there, but

38:31

I was still doing plays. And I

38:33

was doing a play in Boston and somebody saw me

38:35

and one thing led to another, and the next thing I know of

38:38

being signed by the Wily Moors Agency

38:40

in New York, and thought what do I

38:42

do? So I took a leave of absence to see where

38:44

that would go. Within a couple of months, I was on

38:46

One Life to Live, which is ABC soap, and

38:49

at that time this was the nine nine soap

38:51

operas were really big and they were the biggest.

38:53

They were the biggest, and ABC was huge,

38:56

and I think our show is like number three, and I

38:58

think there were twelve soaps at the time. Most

39:00

were in New York, and so we were shooting there

39:02

in New York. And I did that for for a

39:04

couple of years. And then

39:07

because I had promised my grandfather, the

39:10

one who worked in coal mines, who

39:12

said to me, promised me that you'll go

39:14

to college and finish, and I promised

39:16

him that I would, I could not go

39:19

back on that. So when my contract came up

39:21

on One Life to Live, I dropped

39:23

everything and I went back. I transferred to Columbia

39:26

University started to be in New York, and

39:28

that's where I finished. I got my degree because

39:30

of my promise to my grandfather, and so

39:32

I did that. Um I went

39:35

to study at Oxford University on

39:37

scholarship. I had written an essay on Virginia

39:40

Wolf, a little known book that

39:42

she wrote called The Waves. I mean, most people

39:44

know to the Lighthouse and Mrs Dalloway and all the

39:46

things that you get on your syllabus in college. But

39:49

there's some more obscure writings

39:51

of hers, uh that are

39:53

really brilliant. Virginia Wolf was

39:56

the kind of the original stream of consciousness

39:58

writer before William Faulkner

40:00

in this country, and you know, took up the mantle

40:02

of stream of consciousness writing. She

40:05

wrote a book called The Waves, which

40:08

is so brilliant because the

40:10

way it is, I like to did I describe

40:12

it this way? When you're reading

40:14

it, you don't know what you're reading yet, and

40:16

that's what's meant to be. So you're reading it

40:19

and it's a stream of words, so you're now you're now

40:21

in a film and a sense in your mind, and you're writing

40:23

along this visual through

40:25

words and you don't know what's happening,

40:27

but something is affecting you as a reader. And

40:30

you're reading about someone who's feelings,

40:32

you're reading about their feelings being warm,

40:35

and they're looking at some shimmering globe,

40:38

some orb of light, but you don't know what it is

40:40

yet, and you can see it's kind of precariously

40:43

holding its position and it has

40:45

light reflecting in it. And the person,

40:48

the person in the book who's relating

40:50

this inner feeling to you

40:53

as a reader, is

40:55

feeling this as well. And all

40:57

of a sudden, the camera starts pulling back. And

40:59

I say camera, because when you're reading this, it's

41:01

like this. So the cameras pulling

41:03

back more and more and more and farther away

41:05

from this glimmering orb of

41:07

light, and what are you finding out? What it is?

41:09

Well, when it finally comes back far enough is you're reading

41:12

along in this stream of consciousness, you

41:14

realize that it's a young child

41:17

laying down in the grass, staring at a

41:19

drop of dew on a blade of grass.

41:22

And the feeling going through

41:24

this young child's heart in

41:27

the warmth of the sun, staring

41:29

at a drop of dew on a blade

41:31

of grass. And to me, that's

41:34

brilliant literature. And

41:36

so anyway, I wrote

41:38

an essay about this, and um,

41:41

I got picked to go study at Oxford

41:43

and I studied the Bloomsberry group there, you

41:45

know, Conrad and Lawrence and James

41:48

Joyce and and Virginia Wolf. But my focus

41:50

was was really Virginia Wolf, because

41:52

I just she's so brilliant.

41:55

Um And so anyway, came

41:57

back and from that and

42:00

went back into the business. Before I became

42:02

a lawyer, did some

42:04

films with Tony Curtis, who

42:07

is legendary as you know, um

42:09

and and some you know, some great

42:11

actors that my wife doing

42:14

one of the one of the films I did, and

42:17

thirty five years later and three children later and a

42:19

granddaughter or later, here we are and

42:21

then you know, went out to law school after leaving

42:24

that business. Do

42:26

you think, because I wonder when I listened to

42:28

you talk about that story, and and

42:30

really when you tell stories in general, you are such

42:32

a storyteller. And and

42:35

when you discuss this Virginia

42:37

Wolf book and

42:40

you talk about waves

42:42

and and and what it

42:45

was like to realize it was the child,

42:48

what I hear is the

42:50

ability that you have to put

42:53

yourself in someone else's shoes. You're in the

42:55

story, you're feeling the feelings,

42:57

you realize who it is you see from their perspective.

43:00

You talk about, you know, working with Tony

43:02

Curtis or law

43:04

school, the things you learn from your parents. There's

43:07

so much about

43:09

your life that

43:11

has informed you by looking at

43:13

the world through other people's eyes.

43:17

And it's striking me in this moment as well

43:19

as I know you, I'm realizing I'm learning something

43:21

new that of course you're

43:24

such a phenomenal person to have in

43:28

our legal sphere

43:30

because you truly take the time

43:33

to look at what's happening

43:36

through the eyes of the people experiencing

43:38

it. Yeah, I thank

43:40

you, and I do feel that

43:43

way sincerely. And when

43:45

people say why

43:47

why are you running for judge rather than something else,

43:50

you know, whatever it may be, I say, because

43:52

it really is necessary. You

43:55

know, I really believe that

43:57

when you make a decision

44:00

that's going to affect people day to day,

44:02

that you have to have that empathy,

44:05

that that and that's why I said earlier

44:07

on, I really think it's important for people

44:09

to have life experience,

44:12

years of seeing

44:14

so many different things before they're

44:16

going to sit in a position to make

44:18

a decision. Or if you're on the appellate

44:20

court, if you're writing an opinion, which

44:23

is where I could very well end up being and I

44:25

would like to someday, because you're then

44:27

writing the law as precedent

44:30

that others will follow and say, this

44:32

is the law that judge or justice

44:34

Barskian wrote, He he wrote

44:36

this, So who's the person that's writing

44:39

that? Now, who's the person And even

44:41

on the Supreme Court, you know, when an opinion

44:43

comes down, you know, one person authors

44:45

the opinion on the Supreme Court. Others

44:48

concur or join in it, but one

44:50

person authors it. And so

44:52

who is that person? You know, who is the

44:54

person who is saying

44:57

this is who you can love, or this is

44:59

where you can travel to, or this

45:01

is this is how you will be able to

45:03

be, this is how you were to behave in

45:06

our society. They're dictating

45:09

that. Who is the person who's

45:12

handing down that decision?

45:15

Boy, you want that to be somebody

45:17

who really has that kind of empathy

45:20

and deep feeling, because when they're

45:22

writing, you want them to be writing

45:24

for people generally

45:27

and for that, but through their heart, you

45:30

know, through their heart, you know, because

45:32

there are I mean

45:34

I again, I've been practicing

45:37

law for this will be my thirtieth year next

45:39

year, and I tell people, you know,

45:41

when I talk about, you know, my experiences in

45:43

the law, I said, look, there

45:45

are you know a lot of people on the bench, thousands and

45:47

thousands and whatnot. I've been in and out of court,

45:49

both trial court and appellate. I've done appeals

45:52

as well. And I say to people,

45:54

why what drove me to want to be a judgment?

45:56

That one of the things is

45:58

that I felt I came out of

46:00

the courtroom too many times shaking

46:03

my head saying,

46:06

did this particular judge even

46:08

read my papers? Even

46:11

read my papers? So

46:13

so you've been in courtrooms where

46:16

you're arguing a case and you

46:18

realize the judge on the bench doesn't even know

46:20

what the case is pretty much. I

46:22

mean. The reason

46:24

I hate to say that is because

46:27

I am running to

46:29

become part of a group

46:31

of people that I'm now saying

46:33

something that's critical. But you know what that has to

46:35

be done because my I you

46:38

know, I want to be an active judge in a sense

46:40

that I want to improve the judiciary,

46:43

whether it's by my own being an

46:45

example and attracting people

46:47

like minded to the bench that over time will

46:49

spread out and improve the general judiciary,

46:52

or how I write, you know, But

46:55

yes, to answer your question, yes, I

46:57

have come out of court saying

47:00

to myself that it is clear

47:02

to me that this particular jurist

47:04

did not read my papers, was

47:07

not prepared to make a ruling yet

47:09

ruled, yet ruled.

47:12

So that's concerning

47:15

because as again as I said earlier, on these

47:17

decisions canna affect people's everyday lives.

47:20

So you know, you want to make sure

47:22

if you're going to be a judge, you're prepared.

47:25

You you know that you're going to give the

47:27

you know, their two sides to every case, that

47:30

you're going to give them their full due,

47:32

their full hearing. So if you're going to

47:35

be a public servant and you're taking the position

47:37

of somebody who's going to render a decision,

47:40

you want to give them at least the respect that

47:42

you're going to read all of their papers and all

47:44

of their arguments. You're certainly not going to agree with everybody

47:47

because you have to make a decision ultimately,

47:50

and your job is to apply the law to

47:52

the facts as a judge. But

47:54

you've got to give them that respect. So I'm curious

47:56

when you talk about your your thirty

47:58

years practicing law to

48:01

get here, I wonder

48:03

about a couple of things

48:05

really that come to mind. What what was it like

48:07

to argue in a courtroom for the first time? And

48:10

I want to know about complex

48:13

litigation. And I would

48:15

love for you to walk me and everyone

48:17

listening through what that what that really means. I'm

48:19

curious about what's been happening for the last

48:22

thirty years, I guess, so, so, how did

48:24

it all begin Well, it's

48:26

funny because it really

48:28

flowed from my background in

48:30

the arts, because remember

48:32

what I said before, there are two separate paths.

48:35

Well, for me, they ended up becoming married

48:38

and they came together and it became a synergy

48:41

or synthesis, synthesis in some way because

48:44

even though back then I thought, my god,

48:46

why do I have to be Why

48:49

do I have to choose to be only an artist

48:52

or an academician? You know, why

48:54

do I have Why do they have to be mutually exclusive?

48:57

And I found a way that they're not.

49:00

And that's what I'm doing. That's where we are today. Because

49:04

to answer your question, my first time arguing

49:06

in court, well I came. I

49:08

was standing where most people are

49:10

quivering because it's the first time standing

49:12

in a courtroom, whether it's before a

49:15

judge and you're arguing what's

49:17

called emotion, which is a paper and you're arguing

49:19

your case for this particular ruling,

49:22

or whether you're in a trial, which is if

49:24

it's a bench trial that means the judge is deciding

49:26

alone, or if it's a jury trial with a

49:29

jury you're standing in front of a bunch

49:31

of people. So how is this synthesis?

49:33

How is this marriage happening for me? Well,

49:35

I am now in a sense, performing

49:38

in the courtroom. But it's

49:40

real. The script is

49:43

not written and make believe it's

49:45

it's real. So I

49:47

have to convince like

49:49

an actor would have to convince an

49:52

audience, I have to convince the judge or

49:54

a jury. There's your audience of

49:56

your position. And that's what actors

49:59

do. They learn their part, they

50:01

live their part. They then presented

50:03

in their performance, and they have to convince ultimately

50:06

the audience of the reality

50:08

of the real nous, if you will, of

50:11

what their performances. That's what a lawyer,

50:13

a good lawyer does in the courtroom. Their

50:15

script is there is

50:17

the facts, and they write their opening

50:19

statements and their closing statements, which is

50:21

their argument and closing

50:24

it certainly the argument, and that

50:26

is a script that they're following and they're presenting it

50:28

and performing it. So my first time,

50:30

I actually was very calm

50:33

because I had come from the

50:35

arts, and I had come from a position of having

50:37

to perform on stage in New York.

50:40

You know, I did a stage before as

50:42

well, and and uh then

50:44

now I'm in a courtroom,

50:46

and so the senior attorneys

50:49

when I was a young attorney. The senior attorneys

50:51

would talk about,

50:53

how is it that you went in there and won that argument

50:56

you just started here or what have you. But

50:58

I think it's really because

51:00

I was able to marry those two things. I was

51:02

able to be very comfortable and

51:05

find the truth in what I was arguing

51:09

and present that and convince the

51:12

audience, which here was a judge of

51:14

that truth. And so now

51:17

from that first moment on to the next thirty

51:19

years, which led into the various

51:21

kinds of litigation I did, which did ultimately

51:24

lead to most of it being complex litigation,

51:26

and I'll explain what that is. All of that

51:28

work, I then was

51:30

able to grow marrying

51:33

those two concepts that the ideas of, you

51:35

know, the arts and academia,

51:38

bringing them together in the law, because the law is an

51:40

art, you know, it's an art, and to

51:42

apply that art, you know,

51:44

in a courtroom or or in an appellate

51:46

court where you're arguing an appeal from

51:49

a trial court decision, which I've

51:51

done in state as well as in federal

51:53

court. In Watchington, d C. I had

51:55

the honor of arguing actually against

51:57

Paul Clement, the former Solicitor General

52:00

who was a Solicitor General of the United States

52:03

under George Bush. He argued all

52:05

of the White House's

52:07

arguments, if you will, in front of the Supreme Court.

52:09

Anyway, we had an appeal one

52:11

on one against him, and he gave me the highest

52:13

compliment by walking across afterwards

52:16

and shook my hand and said, that was really a

52:18

brilliantly argued argument,

52:20

Mr percy Kian, And

52:22

I was. This was years ago, but I felt

52:25

so honored to have somebody really

52:27

give me that kind of a compliment. But anyway,

52:30

so in my in my work, what complex

52:33

litigation is in the law,

52:35

there are cases, so you have, you

52:37

know, regular cases that everybody knows

52:39

about, whether it's an injury or whether

52:41

it's a medical case, or whether

52:43

it's a contract dispute. But there's

52:46

a thing called the complex panel, and

52:48

that's where cases go that are not just so

52:50

simple. You know, it can be cases

52:52

where there could be so

52:55

many law firms involved because there's

52:57

so many parties involved that

52:59

they're naturally in this big, big

53:02

web of issues. And

53:04

it can also be issues that are multiple

53:06

as well. And so the courts sometimes

53:09

determined to assign something to the

53:11

complex panel, and those judges

53:13

are typically those

53:15

that are in a position,

53:18

you know, intellectually his experience

53:21

wise, in a good position to handle

53:23

those kinds of cases. So to be on

53:25

the complex panel as a judge, you have to have that

53:27

kind of background. As a lawyer, you

53:29

have to be somebody who has really good organizational

53:32

skills to be able to take those,

53:34

you know, those cases which are kind of deep

53:36

webs of issues and parties

53:40

and be able to untangle them in a way and

53:42

and and litigate them in a way where everybody

53:44

is getting their fair hearing and everybody

53:46

gets their fair justice if you will,

53:49

you know, in my cases, you know, some some matters,

53:52

like constitutional law cases sometimes

53:54

end up on the complex panel. You know,

53:56

I've done a lot of eminent domain and inverse

53:58

condemnation, which may he's getting a little

54:00

too technical, but it's a Fifth Amendment case.

54:03

And in our constitution, there's

54:06

one of the articles the Fifth Amendment

54:09

actually says that the government

54:11

cannot take your property without

54:13

compensating you. They can't just grab

54:15

it and take it. And so whether they're

54:17

going to put a railroad through you know, your

54:19

backyard or not, if they're going to do that and

54:22

claim that they're going to take it by eminent domain. They're

54:24

gonna have to compensate you for that. Or

54:26

if the government or one of its agencies

54:29

damages your property by mistake, maybe

54:32

their power lines blow up or

54:34

there what our main bursts underground and

54:37

ruins your home, like what we just had here

54:39

with the wildfires and p yes,

54:41

and that's actually going on right now.

54:43

We have gas being omitted at Portola

54:45

Hills. I think it is. There's you know, you can have

54:48

gas escaping, you know, and

54:50

the quasi public entities

54:53

which are these gas companies are kind of not government

54:55

but then there but in a sense they

54:57

are quasi governmental. You

54:59

know, when those things happen, or a water district

55:02

their water pipe blows up, what have you.

55:04

You know, your house slides down a hill

55:06

because the ground is now saturated. Those

55:08

are called inverse condemnation cases.

55:11

The government didn't mean to take your

55:13

property, but what we're saying

55:16

is that they actually did take it by mistake,

55:19

so an inverse condemnation. That's also Fifth

55:21

Amendment cases. And those are cases

55:23

that I've become kind of a specialist, and it's something

55:25

I've done many times. So I have a question, and forgive

55:28

my ignorance, but when you hear

55:31

people say I plead the Fifth you

55:33

can. You can plead the fifth whereas

55:36

you deny, you

55:38

refuse to incriminate yourself. How

55:41

are those really different

55:44

part of that amendment? Okay, great, So there's

55:46

different articles or clauses in

55:48

the Fifth Amendment and they're completely separate.

55:50

I was like, cool, what does to

55:52

do with your house?

55:56

Serious? Yeah? So

55:58

would would the water crisis and flint

56:01

fall under the under

56:03

imminent if I if I was representing

56:05

as as an attorney somebody,

56:08

Let's say you live there and your children were

56:10

poisoned? If you will, you couldn't

56:13

drink the water because the lead was

56:15

leaking into it because the pipes which are

56:17

being managed by the state or whatever.

56:20

Absolutely, that's what it is. And

56:22

that and and I'm glad to say that in

56:24

California we always do lead the way out

56:26

here, and we really do in terms

56:28

of legislation that you

56:30

know, whether you call it progressive or whatever you want to call

56:33

it, it's legislation that,

56:35

in my view, is the right legislation

56:38

that's protecting people. You know,

56:40

we we have statutes that are good

56:42

in that area. In that inverse

56:45

condemnation, for instance, Thank

56:47

god that there are statutes

56:49

that say if you have one of those kinds of cases,

56:52

like the flint case, but it's here and

56:54

you have to go to court. Because

56:56

of that, you get to recover your

56:59

attorney's fee and all

57:01

the costs of experts getting getting

57:03

all the information about those pipes or whatnot,

57:05

where normally you don't get those. So most

57:07

people can't afford to go to

57:09

court, you say so, so again,

57:12

that sort of goes back to this idea of us

57:14

grouping to defend

57:16

ourselves, to fight for fair wages, to

57:19

to fight a city that might perhaps be poisoning

57:22

your water because most of us are not as

57:24

powerful as the people who are in control.

57:26

And that's where the courts come in. Yeah, and take

57:28

that. If you take those steps, the

57:31

groups forming feel

57:33

there's a need. In other words, people

57:36

can't afford to go to court. Their kids are dying

57:38

from lead poisoning, but they can't afford

57:40

to hire a lawyer. They can't afford to hire

57:42

expensive engineers to prove their case

57:45

and save their lives. If

57:47

you will get clean water or whatever it may be, well

57:50

in California, groups

57:52

can form go to Sacramento

57:55

and and lobby the legislators

57:57

to pass the laws that say,

58:00

okay, now, if you go to court

58:02

against the government who did this to

58:04

you, guess what, You're going to get

58:06

your attorney's fees. You're going to get your expert

58:09

fees, You're going to get your appraisal fees whenever they

58:11

are so you can do this. So what

58:13

that leads to his attorneys

58:16

taking the case and saying, you don't

58:18

have to pay me. You don't worry about the cost because I know at the end

58:21

we're gonna be able to recover it. And I'm confident

58:23

because we have a statute that says we can. And

58:25

that's that's where that's where this thing happens.

58:28

That's what allows lawyers to show up and do pro

58:30

bono work for people in cases

58:32

like this, Well they can do the pro bono

58:34

is a little different. So bo means you're never

58:36

going to bono and just

58:39

volunteering contingency

58:41

work. Right. So it's where lawyers

58:43

say, you know what I'm gonna I'm

58:45

a I'm an Ivy League educated lawyer,

58:48

i have thirty years of experience, I'm

58:50

great at what I do, and you know what, I'm gonna go win

58:52

this case for you and the client. Says, but I couldn't

58:55

possibly afford to do this, and they

58:57

can say, don't worry about it. At the end,

58:59

Yeah, not gonna have to pay me. I'm gonna there's a

59:01

good case. There's a statute

59:03

out there that says, don't. They're gonna have to pay

59:05

me separately, not don't worry about it. And

59:07

that's how these people get justice. That's really

59:10

cool. So you've argued

59:12

before the U. S. District Court of the California

59:14

State and US Courts of Appeal. You're

59:17

a member of the bar of the U. S. Supreme

59:19

Court. What is

59:21

it? What is it like, you

59:24

know, as a person who's clearly

59:26

so empathetic, You've got all these

59:28

accolades, you've been in all these courtrooms. Is

59:32

it? Is it an emotional as

59:34

well as an intellectual experience

59:36

for you when you are arguing on behalf

59:39

of people and their rights. Yes,

59:44

in a singular word, yes, I

59:47

can tell you that when I sat there

59:49

in Washington, d c. In the Federal

59:52

Circuit Court of Appeals, which is across the street

59:54

from the White House, waiting for

59:56

the justices to come out. It was a three three

59:59

member panel to come out and

1:00:01

take the bench and this is a beautiful

1:00:03

ornate courtroom and you sit there. And

1:00:06

I was sitting there waiting, and I was alone, sitting

1:00:08

at my table, and this

1:00:11

was not long after my father

1:00:13

passed away, and I was sitting

1:00:15

there thinking, I wonder,

1:00:18

you know, if my dad, if he could see me

1:00:20

sitting here right now. And I got

1:00:22

very emotional just sitting there. I

1:00:24

really kind of welled up in a sense. I'm glad I was

1:00:26

alone because I was you know,

1:00:28

I didn't have a client there, as as one doesn't

1:00:30

in an appellate court. You know, you sit there as

1:00:33

a lawyer, As an appellate lawyer, you're pretty

1:00:35

much alone. And I sat there

1:00:37

and it was an empty courtroom because I got there early,

1:00:40

and I was glad that I had that moment to feel

1:00:42

that. But it was an emotional

1:00:44

moment for me because I

1:00:46

thought about him and his life and

1:00:49

what he had done and that I

1:00:51

followed him ultimately, and

1:00:54

thought about what he would

1:00:56

be thinking to see me sitting there about to have

1:00:58

an argument made to

1:01:01

this High court. And

1:01:03

it was very moving and emotional for me, you

1:01:05

know, to do that. I was very proud of that at

1:01:08

that moment and kind

1:01:10

of motivated me. Into my oral argument.

1:01:14

When you think back on your career in the cases

1:01:16

that you've argued, is there

1:01:18

an example that stands out to you about

1:01:22

the importance of justice and how it affects

1:01:24

the everyday man or woman in America.

1:01:27

Absolutely, it goes to those cases

1:01:30

where I use the word inverse condemnation,

1:01:32

and I was explaining that the reason I go

1:01:34

back to that case, and I've done many of those, is

1:01:36

because I'm representing really

1:01:39

people who could never afford to be represented,

1:01:42

first of all in these kinds of cases.

1:01:44

But these are everyday

1:01:46

people of every kind. These

1:01:48

are homeowners, people whose biggest

1:01:51

investment in their life is

1:01:53

their home. It is, you know, and sometimes

1:01:56

it's a very precarious thing. They're

1:01:58

living month to month, whether it's on Social

1:02:00

Security. I mean, I'm representing people who

1:02:03

may be into early nineties who their

1:02:05

home is their life security,

1:02:08

which has been damaged, which

1:02:10

is on the precipice of

1:02:12

going down a hill because of what happened.

1:02:15

They're gonna lose everything, or

1:02:18

or a young couple who have two young children

1:02:20

who are getting by month to month. And

1:02:23

the thing that's so wonderful about these cases

1:02:25

is I represent a large group

1:02:28

typically So the group that I'm representing

1:02:30

is comes from all walks of life, So

1:02:33

whether it's the elderly living on Social

1:02:35

Security, or whether there's the young couple

1:02:37

with young children, or anybody

1:02:39

in between. And it's so interesting

1:02:41

to me because they're

1:02:44

from all all

1:02:46

all uh, politics

1:02:48

are not part of it. There from all quadrants,

1:02:51

if you will. So I'll have elderly,

1:02:53

I'll have young, I'll have this

1:02:56

party that party. Politics don't enter into

1:02:58

it. They can be all kinds of people

1:03:00

because I spend so much time with them and they're

1:03:02

so it's such an intimate representation

1:03:06

because I go to their homes and

1:03:08

I sit in their homes, they're damaged

1:03:10

homes, and I meet with them in their living

1:03:12

rooms time and time again that

1:03:15

I get to know them their families,

1:03:18

you know, in their homes, which is very intimate um

1:03:20

and very private, and so I

1:03:22

get to know who they are, you

1:03:24

know, and maybe accidentally I get

1:03:26

to know what they're thinking is maybe

1:03:29

on issues of the world. And I

1:03:31

realize as I'm sitting there representing,

1:03:33

say a group of same representing

1:03:35

a group of twenty homes,

1:03:37

say in a particular case, so I

1:03:40

have twenty homes and these all these kinds

1:03:42

of people and I get to know them all. I realize

1:03:45

through that one case what

1:03:48

our whole society is made up

1:03:50

of, all these different kinds of people who

1:03:52

are all trying to get by day by day,

1:03:54

and they all have different thoughts and different

1:03:57

dreams and and whatnot, but

1:03:59

they're all trying to get some justice

1:04:02

right. And so they hand that case to me, and

1:04:04

I go in and I fight for them. So when I'm in the courtroom

1:04:07

and I'm putting them up on the witness stand,

1:04:10

I'm so proud when I put up a

1:04:12

ninety year old man who's testifying

1:04:14

in front of a jury about his home

1:04:17

being damaged, because I have such

1:04:19

confidence that the jury is going

1:04:21

to rule in his favor, in their favor,

1:04:23

because these are real people who

1:04:25

need their help as a jury,

1:04:28

and in the end of the day, they did. It's

1:04:30

so cool. It just makes me think about how

1:04:32

you get to have these experiences over and

1:04:34

over again that reinforced that really

1:04:37

the whole point of all of this is for

1:04:39

us to be in it together and to advocate

1:04:41

for each other and

1:04:44

and to help our neighbors, whether we know

1:04:46

them or not. Yeah, And

1:04:48

I really really

1:04:50

see that in these cases. So

1:04:54

so what was it? When was the moment that,

1:04:56

with this thirty year career and all your

1:04:58

experience with people, what was the tipping

1:05:00

point where you said, you know, I was going

1:05:03

to retire, but now I'm going to run

1:05:05

for judge. Because those are very disparate

1:05:08

realities. So what

1:05:10

did it? And I will that's a good question

1:05:12

because as you know, I

1:05:15

could make I could make that turn and say

1:05:17

okay, let's wind it down, and

1:05:19

there are probably a lot of people wondering

1:05:22

why did you do this? And there are people who expressed

1:05:24

that to me. So yes, there was

1:05:26

a very bright line moment. It was

1:05:29

the Brett Kavanaugh hearings. I

1:05:31

was watching the Bret Kavanaugh hearings

1:05:34

because it was somebody who was looking

1:05:36

to become a Supreme Court justice.

1:05:39

Very important to watch that, and

1:05:41

I'm very interested, of course, as we've been

1:05:43

talking in knowing who wants to

1:05:45

be on the court. That's going to determine

1:05:48

what the law is and how we are going to live our

1:05:50

lives. So of course I'm going to be

1:05:52

very interested in that. So I watched

1:05:54

that hearing and what led up to it, and

1:05:57

what I was so shocked about was

1:06:01

more than anything else, was

1:06:04

the disrespect that I

1:06:06

saw being displayed by the

1:06:08

candidate who wanted to be on the Supreme

1:06:11

Court, Mr Kavanaugh. And I'm

1:06:13

not even commenting this is

1:06:15

a political this is not even having

1:06:17

to do with party. I'm talking about basic

1:06:20

common core decency.

1:06:25

Yes, because he sat there

1:06:28

attacking the people

1:06:31

who were asking him questions,

1:06:33

which is their job to do, to advise

1:06:35

and consent to to to find

1:06:38

out, to inquire of

1:06:40

a person's character and background

1:06:43

to determine whether they're going to confirm

1:06:46

that this person should be have the

1:06:48

honor of sitting as one nine

1:06:50

of the nine justices on

1:06:52

the Supreme Court who make the law in this country.

1:06:55

That's their job as a panel of

1:06:57

senators in this particular case, And

1:06:59

so I watched the back and forth and the

1:07:01

give and take and whatnot, and there was such

1:07:04

disrespect. So what I meant by that is

1:07:06

I saw, for instance, Amy Clomture was

1:07:08

one of the people questioning him.

1:07:10

I respect her and her background. She's

1:07:13

quite a centrist, you know, by the way, um

1:07:15

and was asking a former prosecutor,

1:07:18

attorney general and whatnot, And she

1:07:20

was asking questions to inquire,

1:07:23

you know, of this particular candidate in a very

1:07:25

even reasonable way. But

1:07:28

he started attacking her personally,

1:07:31

you know, started talking about her father and

1:07:33

alcoholism and whatnot. And then

1:07:35

he started talking about himself and his enjoyment

1:07:37

of beer and whatnot in this And I started

1:07:40

and I was watching this, and I

1:07:42

said, am I watching a

1:07:44

confirmation hearing for someone to be

1:07:46

on the Supreme Court? Or

1:07:49

am I watching some sort of you

1:07:51

know, I didn't you know play

1:07:54

that you know, is being put

1:07:56

on about something that happened someday. I

1:07:58

I to me, it was more, it was that

1:08:00

unreal to me, you know, and

1:08:03

and it really affected me. So I continued

1:08:05

to watch, and I

1:08:07

watched questions being asked,

1:08:09

as they do because when you have somebody

1:08:12

vying to be on the Supreme Court, they do background

1:08:14

and you know, investigations and they all do.

1:08:16

Everything that comes up is then fair game. So

1:08:19

there was questioning about things that he had done

1:08:21

in his younger years and whatnot. Now

1:08:23

my personal experience is, I, you know, went

1:08:25

to the kinds of schools in the Northeast,

1:08:28

very similar to Mr Kavanaugh. So

1:08:30

I know these people.

1:08:33

I've I've seen the behaviors,

1:08:36

you know, what the culture is. I do because

1:08:39

I was there, and so I

1:08:41

I witnessed around the same

1:08:43

time that he was there, were I'm

1:08:45

actually older than him, but we're

1:08:47

pretty close to contemporaries. I I

1:08:50

when he spoke when when

1:08:52

it was alleged what had happened

1:08:54

back then and the kind of conduct

1:08:57

that was going on back then, my response

1:08:59

was, oh, of course I know this. And

1:09:01

what I did was I communicated

1:09:04

with my colleagues and friends

1:09:06

who I went to school with back then at these kinds

1:09:08

of schools. Every single one of them said,

1:09:10

of course, we all know

1:09:12

that that is the kind of thinking,

1:09:15

the kind of behavior that went on

1:09:17

back then, and they didn't even

1:09:19

question it. So that

1:09:22

for those people who no

1:09:25

that world and and understood

1:09:28

that to be the case, then

1:09:31

you move into the hearings and

1:09:33

you say, Okay, if that is the case,

1:09:36

let's see how this person handles the

1:09:39

questions about what

1:09:41

occurred back then and whatnot. And

1:09:44

then you look at somebody's character, you

1:09:46

look at their intellect, because they're

1:09:49

answering questions on the spot.

1:09:51

I mean, it's you know, you're not going to go to a

1:09:53

room and think about drafting an answer. You're

1:09:56

going to answer on the spot. And that's what I was watching

1:09:58

for, and I was not at all impressed

1:10:01

with the way he was responding. He started,

1:10:04

I don't know if he was sincere about it, but he started

1:10:07

getting emotional and you

1:10:09

know, crying, and but

1:10:11

it was you know, goes back to I

1:10:13

guess I'm reaching back to my studying Shakespeare

1:10:16

at Columbia University. But if thou dost

1:10:18

protest too much, you know, when

1:10:20

somebody starts really

1:10:23

protesting that way, you start to think,

1:10:25

you know, is you know, you

1:10:27

know, how sincere is it? How truthful

1:10:30

is it? So that was

1:10:32

a battleground that confirmation hearing.

1:10:35

But my takeaway from it, and I tell

1:10:37

people this, I don't have a problem

1:10:39

with there being a battleground at

1:10:41

a confirmation hearing. I don't have a problem with that.

1:10:43

Okay, if people want to battle things out the

1:10:46

democratic way, it can be messy sometimes, It's

1:10:48

what Obama used to always say, democracy

1:10:50

is messy. You know, He's right, you know,

1:10:52

sometimes it can be messy, and sometimes

1:10:55

you know, you know, you have to go through those things

1:10:57

to get to an end point. So I don't have

1:10:59

a problem them with their being

1:11:02

you know, a kind of somewhat argumentative

1:11:04

hearing, especially someone trying

1:11:06

to get on the Supreme Court. But what

1:11:09

I don't like is to witness

1:11:11

what I consider it to be the lack

1:11:14

of temperament, the

1:11:16

lack of temperament that you certainly

1:11:18

want to see in any judge, whether

1:11:21

it's a trial court judge, which is what

1:11:23

I'm running for, or a Supreme

1:11:25

Court justice. You want

1:11:28

someone who has the temperament, you

1:11:30

know, the even handedness that

1:11:33

they're going to impart justice equally. And

1:11:35

I didn't see that, and so that to me

1:11:38

was my bright line point when I when

1:11:40

I witnessed that hearing, I

1:11:42

said to myself, I

1:11:44

have to do something about this, because right now

1:11:47

people are saying, get off

1:11:49

the bench, get so to speak,

1:11:51

you know, get off the bench, get get out of your

1:11:54

seats, and start to be

1:11:56

the change, you know, start, you know, stop

1:11:58

doing you know, whatever your successful at. You

1:12:01

know, it's time to enter public life

1:12:03

to try to make a change.

1:12:06

And people started to do that, and

1:12:08

you know, I saw people doing that. But when I saw

1:12:10

that hearing, it pushed me off,

1:12:13

saying, okay, I need

1:12:16

to get involved. And my involvement

1:12:18

at that moment was very clear. It

1:12:20

was it has to be in the judiciary

1:12:23

because it wasn't just the Kabiner hearing. But

1:12:26

for the last few years, the judiciary

1:12:28

has been attacked by

1:12:30

politicians. I mean we've seen yeah,

1:12:32

I mean, they wouldn't let Merrick Garland take a seat

1:12:34

again, a centrist. You

1:12:36

had the Senate holding up yes

1:12:39

a hearing. Their weaponizing our judicial

1:12:41

system, which is meant to be a check on the Senate,

1:12:44

not meant to be an arm of the Senate. The

1:12:46

judiciary is supposed to be

1:12:48

an independent branch of our government

1:12:51

that helps us to have I

1:12:53

think about it like a stool. You know, we're supposed

1:12:56

to have these three branches that hold

1:12:58

us up, and when one branch

1:13:00

becomes kind of hijacked by another,

1:13:04

we've lost. Let me make it one step

1:13:06

further. There are three co equal

1:13:08

branches of government, the judiciary

1:13:11

being one of them. Of course, the legislative branch of the executive

1:13:13

branch, but the

1:13:15

judicial branch is sacro sanct

1:13:18

because you have to have a

1:13:21

place, a sanctuary

1:13:23

where the other two branches battling

1:13:26

out as much as they want to between executive legislative,

1:13:29

they have to have a place to go to have the

1:13:31

have it settled, and it has to

1:13:33

be respected as the final word.

1:13:35

And in the last few years you've

1:13:37

had attacks from one of the branches of government

1:13:40

against the judiciary, saying things

1:13:42

like this judge can't rule because

1:13:44

he comes from a Mexican background, or this

1:13:46

judge can't rule because he's an Obama judge,

1:13:49

or this girl can't judge because he's a Bush

1:13:51

judger. Whatever, And you have the Chief Justice

1:13:53

coming out and saying, hey, we don't have political

1:13:56

judges. You know, are judges are judges you

1:13:58

know now having said that,

1:14:00

but we do now don't Yeah, right

1:14:02

now, I tell people we have to stop

1:14:04

living in a five to four world. And what

1:14:07

I mean by that is and it

1:14:09

happened today in the Ninth Circuit

1:14:12

we had, unfortunately a

1:14:14

ruling that I said before was seven to four,

1:14:16

while it happened to be seven

1:14:18

judges were from one party, four

1:14:21

judges were from the other party. In the

1:14:23

Supreme Court, you'll have five judges for

1:14:25

one party, four judges from the

1:14:27

other party. In the year two thousand,

1:14:30

you had the presidency determined not

1:14:32

by the electorate but by the Supreme

1:14:34

Court because they made the determination five

1:14:38

judges from one party and four judges from the

1:14:40

other. So this is the way

1:14:42

I have to come down on it being a non judicial

1:14:44

candidate, our nonpartisan candidate.

1:14:47

We can't ever have rulings

1:14:51

coming down strictly

1:14:53

along hard ideological

1:14:56

lines. That is not the way

1:14:58

of America. That is not what we're

1:15:00

about. And that's what's been going on

1:15:02

well, and it frightens me because you see

1:15:04

things like Justice Kennedy

1:15:07

is stepping down for no reason

1:15:09

to make room for a politically appointed

1:15:12

judge, when you see debts

1:15:15

being paid off mysteriously for people

1:15:17

who work in the judicial branch, as they were

1:15:19

with Brett Kavanaugh, and then suddenly he

1:15:21

gets a seat and Justice Kennedy is out, and

1:15:23

again Kennedy's son is involved, and every

1:15:25

everything feels like it's been

1:15:29

polluted by politics and it's not

1:15:31

meant to. So I wonder

1:15:34

when you think about that, because you're

1:15:36

I know this about you, because I know you.

1:15:39

One of your favorite words in the English language

1:15:42

is integrity. You

1:15:44

you live it and you breathe it, and you you encourage

1:15:46

everyone around you when

1:15:48

making decisions, to make

1:15:50

those decisions from their integrity.

1:15:53

And I'm I'm curious now that

1:15:55

we see the integrity of the Court of

1:15:58

of the Judiciary being compromised

1:16:02

how do you think, I

1:16:04

mean, where do you think we are in

1:16:07

terms of integrity and how do you think we get back

1:16:09

to more of it? Boy,

1:16:12

that is such an important

1:16:14

question because the answer

1:16:17

to the question could quote

1:16:19

save the Republic end quote. I mean it's

1:16:22

that important. When you

1:16:24

mentioned Justice Kennedy,

1:16:26

I mean that that's the fact that was reported

1:16:28

that his son had

1:16:30

some connection whereby

1:16:33

when he or I should say Justice

1:16:35

Kennedy through his son had some connection that it

1:16:38

made it questionable

1:16:40

when he suddenly retired because he wasn't ill

1:16:43

why he did that at the time. So

1:16:47

I don't even need to make comment on it. It's been reported,

1:16:49

so that means that something other

1:16:52

than pure integrity, pure

1:16:55

justice, pure fairness was at

1:16:57

play. And so are we

1:16:59

all perfect people, know, but we are

1:17:01

too far from perfect these days.

1:17:03

So we need to get closer back to

1:17:06

that. We need to strive to get back toward

1:17:08

it, so we don't have to set a bar that

1:17:10

says we all must be pure and perfect, but

1:17:12

we're way too far from it right now.

1:17:15

And so my feeling

1:17:17

is that and this is why I again

1:17:21

with the Kabiner hearings, I kind of left out of

1:17:23

my seat and said Okay, I'm going to do something about

1:17:25

this in the judiciary. Is

1:17:27

because even though I'm running

1:17:30

for Superior Court,

1:17:32

which is a trial court, and people say, well, Tom,

1:17:34

that's that's the trial court. It's not the Supreme

1:17:36

Court. But you can't run for the Supreme

1:17:39

Court. But um, but it's the

1:17:41

first step. And the reason I'm doing it is

1:17:43

because I'm not just going to sit on the bench and

1:17:46

and just stop there. I want

1:17:48

to be an active judge. And what I

1:17:50

mean by that is I want to be able to

1:17:52

represent the judiciary

1:17:54

as being the person who

1:17:56

is defending the judiciary

1:17:59

and it's pure sense in its truest form,

1:18:02

and taking that defense wherever

1:18:05

it has to go, whether it's in Sacramento

1:18:08

in the state of California, and

1:18:10

and doing whatever I need to do to

1:18:12

improve the laws so that we improve

1:18:15

the judiciary, whether it's through

1:18:17

passing laws, working with state

1:18:20

legislators. I've already had discussions with

1:18:22

some and they've said, I'd love to sponsor that bill. And

1:18:24

this is great thinking. But the idea there

1:18:27

is to maybe improve the law so that those

1:18:29

who end up on the bench are

1:18:31

the kinds of people you want on the bench, those

1:18:33

with deep integrity. Those were the experience

1:18:37

and the background that end up there. So there

1:18:39

are things that can be done to improve

1:18:41

the judiciary, to get better people on the bench.

1:18:44

I really want to be that kind of person where

1:18:46

people say, Jesus, I've never

1:18:48

seen a judge out there talking about

1:18:51

the judiciary and and

1:18:54

kind of inspiring us too as

1:18:56

a as a people to try to find ways

1:18:58

to improve it, and really carrying

1:19:00

the torch of fairness, you

1:19:04

know, as she is drawn,

1:19:07

you know, our our lady judgment, she's

1:19:10

blindfolded, holding the scales. You know,

1:19:12

they're meant to truly be unbiased

1:19:14

and fair. And I think getting back

1:19:17

to that would be very exciting.

1:19:20

And if you notice on Lady Justices,

1:19:22

not relegacy of blindfolds, but those scales are

1:19:25

even, Yeah, they're even.

1:19:27

And I you know, I keep telling people that. Um

1:19:30

sometimes when I go out to talk to

1:19:32

clubs and organizations and whatnot, you

1:19:35

know, on this campaign trail, and they say,

1:19:37

well, you know, how would you rule this way? How

1:19:39

would you rule that way? While the Code of Judicial

1:19:41

Ethics, which applies to candidates as well for

1:19:43

judge, you know, we're not allowed to make

1:19:46

comment on things that are presently

1:19:49

before the court or could come before the

1:19:51

court, and I understand that. So what I tell people

1:19:53

is remember that Lady Justice is blind,

1:19:56

and she also is holding scales that are equal,

1:19:59

so that if it's true justice,

1:20:02

both parties come in and the judge

1:20:04

should be absolutely equal.

1:20:06

There should be no tipping

1:20:09

of that scale either way. And you have

1:20:11

to have that facility as a judge. You

1:20:14

have to have it. So I would

1:20:16

love to attract I would first of all,

1:20:18

love to win this campaign so I can begin to

1:20:20

become the change. But I would

1:20:23

love to attract people to the bench, and

1:20:25

I may if I win and become

1:20:27

a judge, I may go out there and

1:20:29

start looking for those

1:20:32

people who are like minded and encourage

1:20:34

them to run, you

1:20:36

know, to be a judge because they're they're

1:20:38

they're the good people. You know, they're the kind

1:20:40

of people you want to see there to commit to

1:20:43

that kind of to commit service, to do it. So

1:20:46

this episode is coming out right before your election,

1:20:48

which I'm very excited about. So if you're

1:20:50

in l A and you are listening to this, please

1:20:52

go and vote Tom Parsigian

1:20:55

for seat one fifty. But

1:20:57

as we talked about earlier, a lot of people don't

1:20:59

really know how to

1:21:02

do this kind of local research.

1:21:04

Maybe maybe don't pay as much attention to the smaller

1:21:07

elections. Do you have a

1:21:10

message for any of those people who maybe

1:21:12

weren't planning on showing up on March three?

1:21:15

You know about the impact of these things,

1:21:17

well, the impact is tremendous.

1:21:20

First of all, everyone.

1:21:22

I think I mentioned way earlier on about

1:21:24

this sense of despair, that sometimes people have

1:21:27

a loss of hope or or whatnot.

1:21:29

And I tell people, don't despair, don't lose

1:21:31

hope, because the way

1:21:33

that you feel better about

1:21:35

it is to use the power

1:21:37

of your vote. That the voting

1:21:40

power is the most important,

1:21:43

treasured protected power

1:21:45

that you have. You have to

1:21:47

exercise it. Don't think

1:21:50

I have something else to do or it's too

1:21:53

difficult to look into this. You've

1:21:55

got to exercise your vote because

1:21:57

it's the only way we can make this change. So as

1:21:59

far as judges go, there are

1:22:02

ways you can do that. I know there's not

1:22:04

much time. Certainly, I'm I would love

1:22:06

for you to come vote for me and see one fifty,

1:22:08

but there are also you'll see other judges on the

1:22:11

ballot. So how do you find out about that? Go

1:22:14

to the websites of these people,

1:22:16

see what they stand for. And it's very easy

1:22:18

because if you just take their name and you

1:22:20

can go online and find out who's running for Judge. You can

1:22:23

look at it any sample ballot and you

1:22:25

can put their name in a Google search and

1:22:27

you'll see, let's say their name is Smith.

1:22:29

I guarantee you it'll be Smith for Judge

1:22:31

dot com or something, you know, and Google

1:22:34

will get you there and you can find out, you know, who

1:22:36

are these people, what are their backgrounds,

1:22:38

you know, what do they think? And

1:22:40

by the way, who are they supported by? You

1:22:42

know, I mean, I'm so proud to

1:22:45

be supported by so many great organizations

1:22:47

you know around this county, like you know, Stonewall

1:22:50

Democratic Club is you know, has

1:22:53

endorsed me, you know, I mean that's you know, a

1:22:55

particular group, a particular organization

1:22:57

that represents a certain group of people who

1:23:00

really have the needs for

1:23:03

people to have empathy and

1:23:05

and and and have you know, understand

1:23:07

people's trials and tribulations in day day

1:23:09

to day life, you know, or you know, here

1:23:11

in in l A, I'm you know, endorsed by the l A Democratic

1:23:14

Party. Well, I also got

1:23:16

a qualified rating from the l A County Bar

1:23:19

Association. Why is that important?

1:23:21

And why is that some people something the voters to look

1:23:23

into, you know, go to the

1:23:25

l A County Bar website and find out how people

1:23:27

were rated by them. Why is that important?

1:23:30

Because the way you get a rating

1:23:32

is so hard, it's so deep. You

1:23:35

have to submit seventy five references

1:23:38

of judges that you've worked with, have been

1:23:40

in court with, of opposing counsel,

1:23:42

of co council, of clients that you've

1:23:44

represented, of maybe experts that you've used,

1:23:47

people that you've used or come

1:23:49

in front of in your work as a lawyer,

1:23:51

not seven seventy five. And

1:23:54

they follow up by surveying

1:23:56

every one of these seventy five people, and

1:23:58

they call them on the phone, they

1:24:01

interview them. So it's really a deep,

1:24:03

deep vanning process. So one

1:24:05

of the things that simple things that people can

1:24:08

do is if you see a list of candidates

1:24:10

for judge and you want to find out go to

1:24:12

the l A County Bar Association. See how

1:24:14

they rated them as qualified or well

1:24:16

qualified or possibly not qualified.

1:24:19

There are some candidates you know who'll get that rating

1:24:21

and and then you can take that into account.

1:24:23

Yeah, and something I think is so amazing is

1:24:26

that Los Angeles County is actually larger

1:24:29

in population than forty two

1:24:31

entire states. Are amazing.

1:24:34

So the judges here in l A County need to be able to

1:24:36

handle a lot. Yes. L

1:24:39

A County Superior Court is the

1:24:41

largest and most complex trial

1:24:43

court in the United States of America.

1:24:46

Our county, as you said, is bigger than forty two

1:24:48

whole states. So being a judge

1:24:51

in this court is critically important.

1:24:53

Um, you want good people on the bench. And by the

1:24:55

way, California leads the way in terms

1:24:58

of its law. State follow

1:25:01

our decisions. So when we set

1:25:03

president here in California, yes, it's

1:25:05

president here in California, but it's

1:25:07

also followed by other states. So yeah,

1:25:10

it's a big, important county. And can

1:25:12

you kind of walk us through the role

1:25:15

the role of a judge where you

1:25:17

have the role of a judge here in in l A County?

1:25:20

What what what will that look like for you? Yeah?

1:25:22

So for me the way it works.

1:25:24

And I'm really proud, by the way, talking

1:25:26

about endorsements, this is kind of a proud one. It's non

1:25:29

political. I've been endorsed by the presiding

1:25:31

Judge, Kevin Brazil, who is the chief

1:25:34

runs the whole court system. That's so cool,

1:25:36

I know, and and and the assistant

1:25:38

presiding judge who's going to become the

1:25:40

presiding judge because there's two year terms next

1:25:43

January. So I've gotten the endorsement of both

1:25:45

the Chief and assistant Chief. Um.

1:25:47

And the reason I bring that up is because Kevin

1:25:50

Brazil, who is the present presiding judge,

1:25:52

is the first African American presiding

1:25:55

judge in the history of Los Angeles County Superior

1:25:57

Court. And he's a wonderful, brilliant

1:26:01

judge. You know, educated U c l A. Law.

1:26:03

But he's more than that. He's my kind of guy. He's

1:26:06

he's one of those people that has that deep

1:26:09

empathy for people. He's a real

1:26:11

if you met him, he just is a just

1:26:14

one of the people you meet and you just know he has character,

1:26:17

integrity, and empathy. So he's

1:26:19

he's endorsed me. And the reason I bring him up is

1:26:21

to answer your question. They're the

1:26:23

people who make the decision as to where

1:26:25

you're put. So when if you

1:26:27

win and you're now going to be a judge of the

1:26:30

entire county, you have the jurisdiction

1:26:32

of this whole county of eleven million people

1:26:34

and all these courtrooms. Where does the

1:26:36

judge, chief judge here, the presiding

1:26:39

judge place you. Well, they

1:26:41

take a lot of things into account. Of course, it's going

1:26:43

to be your years of experience. You know, how

1:26:45

long have you been doing this, fifteen

1:26:47

years or thirty years? What is your background?

1:26:49

You know, is your background a complex litigation or

1:26:52

some other kind, or is your background

1:26:54

as a prosecutor. You know you've been doing only

1:26:56

prosecuting. You know, is this district attorney

1:26:59

and that's your area. So they take all

1:27:01

those things into account, and hopefully,

1:27:03

as I crossed my fingers, they take into account where

1:27:05

you physically live, because how how easy

1:27:08

is it in l A traffic to get to the court house you're

1:27:10

going to be assigned to. Yeah,

1:27:12

the commute. So for me, I crossed

1:27:14

my fingers and pray that I get assigned to the Central,

1:27:17

which is downtown what's called the Mosque

1:27:19

Stanley Moss Courthouse, because I could

1:27:21

actually take the subway from

1:27:23

my house to court. And as I've told

1:27:25

people, I'm going to be quote judge on the train

1:27:29

right it's a court. I want

1:27:31

to be able to take public transportation

1:27:33

to court every day and I would be

1:27:35

so thrilled to do that, you know, and

1:27:38

it's wonderful because most people in

1:27:40

l A don't even know that we have subways,

1:27:42

but we do, and I take them whenever

1:27:45

I can, So you know, there

1:27:48

he would assign to the courts, and then my

1:27:50

role would be as a trial judge

1:27:52

making decisions, uh, you know,

1:27:55

whether it's in front of a jury

1:27:57

or myself alone, which is

1:27:59

a bench trial or a jury trial, for whatever

1:28:01

comes into court. And I can tell you that

1:28:04

they can assign you to do anything.

1:28:06

It's up to the presiding judge. You can be doing

1:28:09

you know, criminal courts, civil

1:28:11

courts, family courts. Yeah,

1:28:14

they can put you anywhere, so you could be handling

1:28:17

anything. And now that's true

1:28:20

for judges around the country. Correct, anyone

1:28:22

who's running for a superior

1:28:26

trial court, trial court. Okay,

1:28:28

so when when we're talking about these different judge

1:28:31

ships, and you know, you mentioned to where to go

1:28:33

and what to look at here in l A County,

1:28:35

but likewise, anyone

1:28:37

in any state or county should be able

1:28:39

to look up who's running for judge in

1:28:42

this next election, and then you

1:28:44

would just recommend that they go on Google their

1:28:47

records and and look

1:28:49

for who in their court system already

1:28:51

has endorsed them. Those would be the questions

1:28:53

they should Yes, I think they should

1:28:55

go to their local county, that county's

1:28:58

bar association, the bar associate. Right

1:29:01

now, it's not you know, there's so many counties in

1:29:03

the United States. Not every county may

1:29:05

follow this system, but if they most should.

1:29:08

If it's not the county bar, it could be the state

1:29:10

bar. They could have a similar thing to start

1:29:13

at the county and then check the state, yes,

1:29:15

to see if they've done a rating of those judges.

1:29:17

Have they have they brought them in for a deep vetting

1:29:19

process and then determined what they think

1:29:22

about that particular candidate. That's one

1:29:24

way to go. And then the next way to go is to look

1:29:26

on Google their name. Find

1:29:28

out because everyone sets up a website, find

1:29:30

out what they're thinking is, because they're

1:29:32

going to have on that website, what their

1:29:34

view of the world is, how they view things. You're

1:29:37

going to get a quick sense of what kind

1:29:39

of person this is that wants to be on the bench

1:29:41

making these critical decisions. And then

1:29:43

the third level is look at who's endorsing

1:29:45

them, who's backing them up, what, what kind

1:29:48

of people are they who are supporting them,

1:29:50

because that's going to give you another sense. So

1:29:52

that's my recommendation to voters across

1:29:54

the country. Go to your Google

1:29:57

this person, go to the local, the county

1:29:59

bar or the state or find out if they've been rated,

1:30:01

find out what that rating is, and then look

1:30:03

at who's endorsing them, and then look on their

1:30:05

website to find out what kind of people these

1:30:08

are. And please do that because

1:30:10

these people are going to end up making decisions

1:30:13

in this courtroom that you might end up standing in.

1:30:16

And you want these people to be fair minded

1:30:18

people who render and

1:30:20

administer equal and fair justice

1:30:23

to everybody, no matter their circumstance

1:30:25

or background. And thank

1:30:27

you. Those action items are so hopefully. I love

1:30:30

being able to give listeners specifics and I think

1:30:32

it's important too to your point, this

1:30:34

could just take a little a couple of minutes

1:30:36

on an afternoon. You could spend ten

1:30:38

twenty thirty minutes if you got really

1:30:40

fascinated about something somebody may have, you

1:30:43

know, put up. It's not going to take days,

1:30:46

but a little bit will really go a

1:30:48

long way here and

1:30:50

and for anyone listening here in l

1:30:52

A County, your website is Parsekian

1:30:54

for Judge dot Com. Really simple, and

1:30:57

we'll put it in our stories. Guys, you'll be able to swear

1:31:00

it up and get it on on the work

1:31:02

in Progress Instagram, which

1:31:04

brings me, tom My dear

1:31:06

to my last question for you, which I ask everyone

1:31:09

the podcast is called work in progress.

1:31:12

And when you hear that phrase, I'm curious what

1:31:15

comes to mind is a work in progress in your

1:31:17

life? Right now? Wow? That

1:31:19

is that. You just brought us full circle, because

1:31:22

that is what I am trying to

1:31:24

do. We are we are a work in progress

1:31:26

first of all, and work in progress.

1:31:28

What that means to me is

1:31:31

it's it's it's a teachable

1:31:34

uh phrase in a sense that

1:31:36

we need to get to work to

1:31:38

create progress for me

1:31:41

in the courts system. Yes, we

1:31:43

need to get to work to create progress.

1:31:46

Tom No one has answered that question

1:31:48

that way. That's what it is. I

1:31:50

love that and that's what I

1:31:52

really really want to do. And you know, you

1:31:55

know people sometimes say, well, you're running for election,

1:31:58

and you know you'll say this or that. No,

1:32:00

no, no, no, I really mean this in the

1:32:02

deepest, deepest part of my heart and soul that

1:32:05

we need to do that. And that's why

1:32:07

I'm here and doing this. We're

1:32:09

going to get to work to create that

1:32:11

progress in the judiciary because

1:32:13

it's so important in our

1:32:16

country. I love that. I'm

1:32:18

just so inspired by you. Thank you so much.

1:32:20

I can't wait to vote for you on Tuesday.

1:32:23

Good So what's really

1:32:25

important to know is that people are voting on Tuesday,

1:32:27

March three, and

1:32:31

you've got to get out there to vote on March. So

1:32:33

on Tuesday, make sure your exercise your power

1:32:36

to vote. Indeed, Thanks

1:32:38

Tom.

1:32:44

This show is executive produced by me, Sophia

1:32:46

Bush, and sim Sarna. Our

1:32:48

supervising producer is Alison Bresnick.

1:32:51

Our associate producer is Kate Linlee.

1:32:53

This episode was edited by Matt Sasaki

1:32:56

and our music was written by Jack Garrett and

1:32:58

produced by Mark Foster. This show is brought

1:33:00

to you by Krillion Anatomy