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in all states and situations. It

1:31

was actually my boss who's a ENT

1:33

doctor that sat me down one day

1:36

and he was like, you know, you and I think you would

1:38

be a great physician, but have you ever

1:40

thought about pursuing the culinary field

1:42

professionally. He was like, I really

1:44

want you to go home and ask yourself, like,

1:46

what makes you happy? What drives you?

1:51

Welcome back to working. I'm your host,

1:53

Isaac Butler.

1:54

And I'm your other host, Karen Hahn.

1:56

Karen, how are things out there in lovely

1:59

Los Angeles? List. Good. I love

2:01

winter or, like, I guess, quote unquote, winter

2:03

in LA because it feels like fall on the East

2:05

Coast. Like, mornings and evenings are really nice.

2:07

I still don't like love going out in the middle

2:09

of the day, but that's because I'm I'm like a

2:11

little

2:12

worm. I hate being in the sun. Would

2:14

you say they call you doctor worm? I'm

2:17

not a real doctor, but I am

2:19

a real worm.

2:20

Amazing. And speaking of doctors, whose

2:22

voice is that we heard? I'm

2:25

the segue

2:25

king. Whose voices that we heard at the top of

2:27

the show? So that was Yun Zhong, who

2:30

is currently the pastry chef for Han Jiek

2:32

as well as a practicing physician.

2:34

Not to, you know, sound like a ganta, but

2:36

he's a doctor and a chef.

2:39

That's that's wild. Can't

2:41

wait to hear about that. But in the meantime,

2:43

gotta know. Do our slate plus

2:45

members get a little something extra

2:47

this

2:47

week? Oh, you know they So

2:50

this week, this slight plus extra bit is I talked

2:52

to Yun about his experience, starting

2:54

his culinary journey in Baltimore, and

2:57

how, like, what was available to

2:59

him at that time, his

3:01

path as a chef and how he

3:03

really became interested in this

3:05

field, like, while starting out

3:07

in medical school. That sounds

3:09

amazing and our slate plus members.

3:11

You'll have that little bit waiting for you

3:13

at the end of this week's episode. And

3:16

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3:18

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3:20

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sign up for slate plus today? Go to slate dot

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com slash working plus.

3:39

Thank you in advance.

3:44

Alright. Now, let's listen in to Karen Han's

3:46

conversation with chef and doctor Yun

3:48

Song.

4:00

Hello, Eun. Thank you so much for coming

4:02

on and working. Thank

4:03

you so much for having me. I'm

4:05

so excited to talk with you because I

4:07

was lucky enough to attend a

4:09

pop up event that you did with the restaurant

4:11

hunt take a few months ago. And I was

4:13

really stunned to learn that in addition

4:16

to being a chef, You're also

4:18

working as a doctor or a physician.

4:20

And I believe now you're also working

4:23

as the pastry chef for the hunchik folks

4:25

And I wanted to start by asking,

4:28

I think the question that everyone will

4:30

have as soon as they hear that you're juggling two

4:32

jobs, how do you currently balance

4:34

your time for both things?

4:36

Yeah. So right now, I'm working

4:38

part time in urgent care. So shifts

4:40

are usually about ten and a half to

4:42

twelve hours, which can be a little bit long.

4:44

Yeah. Yeah. So right

4:46

now, I'm able to kind of pick up shifts

4:48

whenever I want. So doing

4:50

urgent care shifts couple times a week.

4:52

And then right now, with the Henrik

4:54

team, we're actually also in a transition

4:57

period where They're not doing dine

4:59

in right now. At the current brick and mortar,

5:01

they're looking for a new building. And so

5:03

we're doing this really exciting thing where we're

5:05

doing pop ups like you know,

5:07

several times a month. So -- Mhmm.

5:09

-- yeah, I think my typical week

5:11

involves, you know, working

5:14

under skincare a couple times a week and then the rest

5:16

of the week sort of menu

5:18

planning and recipe testing and

5:20

then meeting up with Justin

5:22

and trying things out and then doing the

5:24

pop

5:24

up. So sort of, you

5:26

know, half and half right now. Mhmm.

5:28

That's incredible. And now to backtrack

5:30

a little bit, so you had have these

5:32

two sort of pursuits. Was

5:35

there one that came first, or were

5:37

they always both fields that you were interested

5:39

in? I think, you

5:41

know, my parents are kind of

5:43

in the health care field. So I grew up

5:45

with, you know, the typical conservative

5:47

Asian parents who are like, you must be a

5:49

doctor Yeah. You know, I

5:52

grew up I went to college, I

5:54

was premed, and I

5:56

was a pretty, I guess,

5:58

stubborn teenager, like, very

6:01

much about, like, I need to do what

6:03

makes you happy, like, from the get go. And

6:05

I think it's paid off. But back

6:07

then, you know, it's kind of rocky with my parents.

6:10

But first week of orientation,

6:12

I was an undecided

6:14

major, and I was looking at different majors

6:16

and discovered public

6:18

health, which, you know, it's a really amazing

6:21

concept of kind of like

6:24

thinking about like social economic factors

6:26

and how, you know,

6:29

we should serve, like, the underserved communities,

6:31

whether that's local or global. So that

6:33

really appealed to me. So I was like, okay. If I

6:35

have to choose health, I think this

6:37

is the right route I wanna pursue

6:39

because at that time international studies

6:41

was the other major I was considering. So

6:44

In a way, I was kind of like, okay. If I

6:46

have to piece my parents, this is the main chunk of

6:48

the route that I wanna go to. In

6:50

cooking, I think even in college, I was

6:52

kind of always the one amongst my friends

6:54

to really be interested in

6:56

cooking and trying new restaurants. But

6:58

you know back then it was more of a hobby

7:00

and then I think

7:03

as, you

7:03

know, I finished college and had more time

7:05

to cook for myself is when I really discovered.

7:08

I think this is actually more than

7:10

just a hobby

7:11

for me? Yeah.

7:12

Yeah. That's how it started. I'm

7:15

surprised to hear you say that the medical

7:17

truck was something that you did to appease

7:19

your parents partially because now

7:21

I feel like a lot of the people that I've

7:23

talked to in creative fields or even on

7:25

this show the concept of a day

7:27

job is something that comes up a lot, where it's

7:29

like a job that you have that you're not necessarily

7:31

passionate about, but we'll keep the lights on

7:34

for long enough for you to be

7:36

able to kinda grow and develop your creative process.

7:38

But on the other hand, you still

7:40

wanna do this. It's not that you wanna give

7:42

one up for the other. It's both of them

7:44

are passions for you. At what

7:46

point did I guess that particular

7:49

track become something that wasn't just

7:51

about making sure your parents were

7:52

happy, but something that you personally were

7:55

passionate about? Sure.

7:57

In college, so being a public

7:59

health major, I started working

8:01

at ball hearing at a free clinic and

8:03

in their city, Baltimore. And it

8:05

was just amazing to see. That's when I really

8:08

discovered, you know, primary care and family

8:10

medicine where it's about building

8:12

this long term relationship with patients.

8:14

So that's why when I was,

8:16

you know, in medical school and residency, I

8:19

decided I wanted to do family medicine,

8:21

which, you know, you see patients of all ages.

8:24

And to me, I was like, if I wanna

8:26

really serve underserved communities

8:28

and even be involved in

8:30

global

8:30

health, that that is what makes me

8:32

the most skill and kind of

8:34

all

8:34

aspects. So that's

8:37

kind of what I think those experiences

8:39

in college sort of may be

8:41

passionate about primary care and

8:43

then in medical school, I,

8:45

you know, you go through different rotations

8:47

and family medicine

8:49

isn't the most prestigious field,

8:51

I would say, especially in Asia, like my parents

8:53

were like, why don't you do plastic

8:55

surgery, you know, for dermatology, something

8:57

higher pain, but to me,

8:59

I went through other rotations and I really

9:01

did enjoy all of

9:02

them, but I was like, family medicine

9:04

is where my passion is and

9:06

-- Yeah. -- it is about underserved

9:08

communities. And through that, I was able

9:10

to also combine the

9:13

culinary side by doing cooking demos and

9:15

residency and making recipes for patients

9:17

that are affordable but

9:18

healthy. So, you

9:19

know. Do you remember

9:20

any of the recipes that you developed that you

9:23

were talking about? Yeah.

9:26

I think the challenge is,

9:28

you know, I've lived in kind

9:30

of inner city Baltimore before

9:32

and where there weren't really fresh

9:34

grocery stores near me. And so you

9:36

know, if you have a dollar, it's,

9:38

you know, and you have to provide for a

9:39

family, like,

9:41

who wouldn't wanna just pick up a bag of

9:43

chips, which offers more

9:45

calories and in a way can be more

9:47

filling than buying an apple for instance.

9:49

So for me, I was really passionate

9:51

about developing recipes that

9:53

are you know, healthy, but also

9:55

easy to make and cost effective.

9:57

So I think oats are really

9:59

great source of, you know, protein

10:01

and carbs and alcohol. And fiber.

10:04

So kind of doing like a savory

10:06

take on oats so that patients

10:08

are more willing to try them. So

10:10

instead of like, you know, cinnamon sugar

10:12

kind of, like, the typical oats, doing,

10:14

like, sort of, like, a vegetable, cheddar,

10:17

butternut squash kind of oats,

10:19

just using canned vegetables

10:21

and patients really enjoyed that.

10:23

Yeah. Has there been

10:25

much other crossover between the two?

10:27

Because I feel like if someone told

10:29

me, like, find the intersection of the Venn

10:31

diagram between healthcare

10:33

and cooking. I wouldn't be entirely sure

10:35

where to

10:35

start. Howard Bauchner: Yeah, and a lot of

10:38

people ask me that a lot of people

10:40

are like, what do

10:42

medicine and, like, you know,

10:44

culinary have been common? Like, how are you gonna try

10:46

to do both? But to me,

10:48

actually, they actually have a lot in common. I

10:50

think, you know, for

10:52

centuries, I feel that food

10:54

has been of medicine, you know, that

10:56

have sustained our ancestors for

10:58

centuries. And I think

11:00

further to go into deeper, I think

11:02

at their core, they're both industries

11:05

of hospitality and service.

11:07

So I think it's really about the

11:09

patient in front of you, the guests in

11:11

front of you and kind of

11:13

being able to be of service to

11:14

them. So both fields have

11:17

been very gratifying to me in that sense.

11:19

Mhmm. I love what you're saying

11:21

about hospitality, the sort of

11:23

being the cross section between these two fields that

11:25

you're pursuing. And I'm curious, like, what

11:27

else you think of as an

11:29

overlap? Like, for instance, I would say they're both fairly

11:31

scientific fields. Like, cooking, I think

11:33

more often, is described as an art, but there

11:35

still is a certain amount of science to it. Like,

11:37

how much of each ingredient's going and how long it

11:39

goes in the oven, etcetera? Are there

11:41

any other ways in which you

11:44

feel like these two

11:46

fields meld in your head?

11:48

Or is there anything else that you like, really

11:50

overlaps and ties these two fields

11:52

together.

11:52

Yeah. And I love what you said

11:55

about both fields kind of

11:57

having, you know, science

11:59

but also art as well. Mhmm.

12:01

Because I feel like,

12:03

you know, when I kind of pursued the

12:05

past two fields over the last

12:07

decade, there has been a lot of kind

12:09

of, you know, rolling with the punches and you

12:11

kind of have to improvise

12:13

in a way. So -- Mhmm. -- a lot of

12:15

people think in medicine, it's like a black

12:17

and white answer where there's one

12:19

diagnosed and then one cure, but

12:21

that is simply not true. I think

12:23

especially in the hospital

12:25

setting when, let's say, like, your

12:27

kidneys are shutting down, but so is your heart and

12:29

your lungs? It's like, which is

12:31

kind of like the one that's gonna

12:33

if we focus on kinda help? Or

12:35

should we try to balance all three. So there is

12:37

an art to medicine as well. And I think

12:40

also in terms of like how you

12:42

convey that to the patient and their families when

12:44

they're in this really vulnerable

12:46

time. And I think similarly

12:48

in cooking where

12:50

we think we should follow this

12:52

recipe to a tea, but I think depending

12:54

on kind of like how

12:56

the ingredient tastes at that time or the

12:58

oven's temperature, there is kind of

13:00

like an improvisation or art, like

13:02

even when you're plating like Maybe I'll do it

13:04

a little bit differently

13:05

today. So I think

13:07

there's a lot of really similarities

13:10

between

13:10

the two. Yeah. I wanted to talk

13:12

about the way that you I guess

13:14

experiment is not quite the right word, but

13:16

experiment with Korean cuisine as well because that was

13:18

one of the things that really me as remarkable

13:20

about the menu that you developed for the

13:22

pop up with lunch. I wanted to ask a

13:24

little bit about what kinds of things you

13:26

personally like to cook and what sort of things

13:28

you think about while developing recipes?

13:31

Yeah. You know, I feel like these

13:33

days, thankfully, a lot of people

13:35

know about Korean barbecue, kimchi,

13:37

and things like that. But I believe

13:39

that Korean food is so much richer and

13:41

so much deeper than that. So my

13:44

kind of challenge to myself

13:47

and my type of cuisine as I guess.

13:49

How can I make more traditional

13:51

ingredients, more approachable and

13:53

appealing to the average

13:55

American? So things

13:57

like Tianjang or soybean

14:00

paste, that, you know, a lot of people are

14:02

familiar with miso, but Tien tsin is a little

14:04

bit funkier and more assertive in taste

14:06

or like perilla, which is similar to

14:08

Xi So And so how can

14:10

I take those ingredients and really,

14:13

you know, make them more

14:15

contemporary? And so for the pop

14:17

up, Perla is one of my favorite

14:19

ingredients. I was like, let's do an ice

14:21

cream with that and I prepared it

14:23

with a brown butter cake and

14:25

you know, parallel is in the mint and

14:28

basil family. So I was

14:30

like, I think strawberry can be kind

14:32

of like a bridge to tie, like, the cake

14:34

and the ice cream together. Mhmm.

14:36

So sort of like that, I tried to

14:38

think about flavors that would go together

14:40

in a true personal sense and try to

14:42

put a Korean spin on it.

14:44

What was your personal journey with Korean

14:46

cuisine as well? I did you grow up eating a lot

14:48

of it? Or was it something that you discovered

14:50

more as you're going up? Or

14:52

Yeah. So my mom is actually a

14:55

really great cook, but she never

14:57

really taught me any cooking

14:59

because I think she has a traditional

15:01

sense of, like, you know, men,

15:03

children, cook, and everything. So

15:05

even though when I was younger, I would wanna, like,

15:07

I would always hear over her shoulder. Be like, oh,

15:09

what are you making? How do you make sure? She would

15:11

always, like, be like, oh, just go

15:13

play with your toys. But

15:16

so I think that's when I really

15:19

discovered, like, good Korean food and good

15:21

Korean flavors growing up and --

15:23

Mhmm.

15:24

The restaurant I worked at before was more of

15:26

a farm to table, new American

15:28

restaurant. So --

15:29

Yeah. -- we would have some Asian dishes but

15:31

not too much Korean food. But

15:33

that's when I kind of learned techniques and, you

15:36

know, being formed to table, like incorporating

15:38

more fresh vegetables. And

15:41

but at home, I would always usually

15:44

cook Korean food or kind of

15:46

Korean

15:46

fusion, quote unquote dishes. And

15:49

that's sort of how I develop my style, I

15:51

guess, of -- Mhmm. -- a

15:52

lot of Asian food. I think some things can

15:55

be heavy, especially fusion, but I

15:57

like to kind of balance it out.

16:01

We'll

16:02

be back with more

16:04

of Karen's conversation with chef and physician

16:06

Yun Sun after this.

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19:11

Okay. Now back to Karen's

19:14

conversation with Yun Song.

19:16

But as you've sort of

19:18

kept balancing these two different

19:20

career paths, I'm curious if there was ever a point where

19:22

you thought you might have to choose

19:24

one or the

19:24

other. And if there was how you decided that

19:26

you could keep going with

19:29

both. Yeah. So it's

19:31

interesting actually because so I moved to

19:33

LA just about six months ago -- Mhmm.

19:35

-- and I moved to LA

19:37

from the Bay Area to open a

19:40

restaurant. I did a Kickstarter this past

19:42

year. Thankfully, I was able to

19:44

hit the goal, but In my mind, I was kinda like

19:46

if I open the restaurant, I'm gonna have

19:48

to leave medicine for the first at

19:50

least year or two while I'm the

19:52

one being in the kitchen full

19:54

time. And, you know, I

19:56

was like, I should start by doing pop

19:58

ups. And in the meantime, you

20:00

know, I was lucky to be able to

20:03

find this part time emerging career

20:05

position. Mhmm. And then now as

20:07

of couple weeks ago, the model has

20:09

changed where I had

20:11

this fixed school, but then I

20:13

met this really great group of people

20:15

at Henshig and in Hospitality

20:17

Group that, you know, have been really

20:19

supportive of me like even my first pop

20:21

up, I did it with them. And they were like, you know,

20:23

when we were starting out, we had so many

20:26

people who really helped us

20:28

out. And so we wanna be able

20:30

to uplift others in the

20:30

industry, and we wanna help you as well. And

20:33

it went really well. And so

20:35

this opportunity came where

20:38

we both mutually really

20:40

liked working with each other and they kind of have

20:42

a similar philosophy on Korean

20:44

food. So, I mean, it was so

20:46

different from the goal that I imagined four,

20:48

but I was like, is it crazy

20:50

to actually just join this team who

20:52

is clearly very talented, passionate,

20:55

hardworking, and So I

20:57

think, you know, I think everything

20:59

happens for a reason and so this

21:01

opportunity came and so Now

21:03

I'm having this hybrid model where they're willing

21:05

to work with me on both the healthcare

21:08

side and culinary side to support

21:10

my goals and passion. So who's

21:12

to say what's gonna happen down the road? And

21:14

there may be a point where I may

21:17

have to at least temporarily go one

21:19

hundred percent one field or the

21:20

other, but I would like to keep up

21:23

with both if that means being super

21:25

part time in one of them.

21:26

Mhmm. And I I wanted to

21:29

ask about your ambition to open a restaurant as well. Can you

21:31

tell me a little bit about when you started

21:33

thinking about opening up your own

21:35

place? And coming to the

21:37

central philosophy that you wanted to have

21:39

behind your restaurant? You

21:40

know, I think it's every

21:43

Everyone in the field and every chefs

21:45

dream to have their own concept and have their

21:47

own dream, you know. Mhmm. Actually,

21:50

I guess I should mention The

21:53

reason I was able to have the courage to

21:55

even enter the field

21:57

is because, you know, when I started

21:59

cooking, I was doing clinical research, and

22:02

I would bring stuff into the office for

22:04

people to try out. And it was

22:06

actually my boss who's an ENT

22:08

doctor that sent me down one day and

22:10

he was like, you know, you and I think you would be

22:12

a great physician, but have you ever

22:14

thought about pursuing the

22:16

culinary field professionally. He's

22:18

eaten at a lot of restaurants and

22:20

he was like, you

22:22

know, I was always on this

22:24

path since high school with horse binders on. I

22:26

was always premed. And second year

22:28

of residency, I realized this is

22:30

not what I wanna do with my life, but it

22:32

was too late. So he

22:34

was I really you to go home and ask yourself, like, what

22:37

makes you happy, what drives you. And

22:39

-- Wow. -- yeah. And so I

22:41

really owe him a lot. I think

22:43

if he hadn't challenged me, I never would have really dug

22:45

into that part of me to ask myself

22:47

those challenging questions. Mhmm. So

22:51

Then I was applied to medical school, and I

22:53

applied for a job at my favorite

22:56

restaurant with berry kitchen in

22:58

Baltimore. And

23:00

the chef email me back

23:02

and he sat me down for an

23:04

interview and he was like, I know you don't

23:06

have formal training, but -- Mhmm. -- I've

23:08

seen your work and you seem

23:10

like you have a lot of talent and passion.

23:12

So -- Mhmm. -- we'll have you come in for

23:14

skills assessment interview. So

23:16

it's an open kitchen, work

23:18

Friday night, Saturday night, the busiest night.

23:21

At the end of the second shift, the chef

23:23

called all the cooks at the bar.

23:25

He poured everyone a shot of

23:27

bourbon and you as like you and you're hired. Oh. So

23:29

that's

23:29

yeah. It was one of the happiest days of my

23:32

life. And Yeah.

23:34

So working with Barry Kitchen is when

23:37

I started to, like I said,

23:39

like learn more about the power of,

23:41

you know, really fresh

23:43

seasonal local vegetables. And when

23:45

you have quality ingredients, you really don't

23:47

need to do much. The ingredients speak

23:50

for themselves. But you know,

23:52

long story short, then I

23:54

worked there, and then I went on

23:56

to med school interviews and

23:58

decided I am gonna try to pursue

24:00

both. So

24:00

Yeah. I guess I've been after I left

24:02

the kitchen professionally. I've

24:05

still been working on my style

24:07

and still despite the rigorous of

24:09

medical school and residency, like,

24:11

working on my style and my,

24:13

you know, like, my cuisine,

24:15

like, what really defines me and what makes

24:16

me have be. And so

24:19

that's how I developed my style over

24:21

time. And I

24:23

realized that similarly,

24:26

like, of when I first delve into the industry.

24:28

Obviously, in this day and age, it's

24:30

such a risk to open up a place of your

24:32

own financially and

24:34

also professionally and so a lot of people

24:36

were like, you know, you've

24:38

been in school for twelve years. Now you

24:40

can finally reap the benefits of being

24:42

a doctor. Why would you go back

24:45

to the hospitality industry and to this yourself.

24:48

And it is true. Right? But

24:50

I think for me, again,

24:52

like life is short, and I think

24:55

I've always been to, you know, and, like,

24:57

I don't wanna have regrets or ask what

24:59

if. So -- Mhmm. -- despite how daunting it

25:01

was, I was, like, I'm gonna do this

25:04

Kickstarter gonna try to open my

25:06

restaurants. And I think that really

25:08

spoke to people like that I

25:10

was very earnest and honest

25:13

about you

25:13

know, and being vulnerable. And

25:14

that's kind of what led me to be

25:17

like open up my own place

25:19

because I'm

25:20

like, this is what makes me

25:22

and I don't wanna live with regrets. Yeah.

25:24

So you mentioned that you worked in pastry

25:27

at Woodbury. And also, again, you are now the

25:29

pastry chef for a handshake how

25:31

did you come to pursue that particular

25:33

culinary field? Because it is a little

25:35

bit different or it's a slightly separate field

25:37

from, like, general cooking, I would

25:39

say. Yeah. At Woodberry, I was able

25:41

to kind of work on both the savory and

25:44

the pastry side, which again was kind of

25:46

unique to my position, which I really

25:48

think the chef that flexibility. Mhmm.

25:50

But, you know, right

25:53

now for handshake, Justin is,

25:55

you know, the head chef. And

25:57

so and they already have a sous chef. So for

25:58

me, naturally, like, this was

26:01

when we were brainstorming about,

26:03

like, how to kind of

26:05

increased audience for Hanxican. I was like, well, I do have

26:08

background and pastry, and so I think

26:10

I have a lot of ideas on how we

26:12

can do kind of like Korean inspired

26:14

dessert. So that's what I would bring

26:16

to the table. And they were like,

26:18

yeah, we're thinking about doing pop ups where so

26:20

then you and Justin as a deal

26:22

can do all these pop up. So naturally,

26:24

it was kind of like a position where I

26:26

thought I could contribute to and they were

26:28

looking for. And, you know,

26:30

I think a lot of people in

26:32

culinary kind of delineate, like,

26:35

pastry versus savory, like one or the other.

26:37

But I wanted to be able to

26:39

keep up with and do both if I

26:41

were to open up my own place.

26:43

But There are different skill sets. One thing I

26:45

do, blah blah blah blah about pastry though,

26:47

is that I think there's something magical about.

26:49

I think a lot of savory dishes

26:51

you can kind of see the ingredients, and a lot of

26:54

times, it translates to the dish in front of

26:56

you. But for a pastry, it's like you

26:58

have butter, eggs, flour,

27:00

milk, and out of that you create

27:02

something totally new and

27:04

unexpected. And to me, that is

27:06

just amazing. And so I've always been

27:08

fascinated with the PC world.

27:09

Mhmm. So ultimately, it seems like

27:12

you would want to be able

27:14

to have your restaurant while also

27:16

continuing practicing as a

27:17

physician. Is is that

27:19

correct? Yeah. I think that's the ultimate goal. But, you know,

27:21

I'm always open to new opportunities

27:23

and change and -- Yeah. -- you know, that's

27:25

what I've learned over the years. So

27:28

I don't really know where this current model is gonna

27:30

lead, but, you know, the handshake team man,

27:32

I I have talked about, like,

27:35

you know, I mean, just theoretical, but

27:37

maybe you can open your

27:39

restaurant, like, under our

27:41

hospitality group in the

27:41

future, things like

27:44

that and I don't really know, you know,

27:46

what's gonna happen, but I'm keeping an

27:48

open mind. That said,

27:50

if you suddenly came across a Genie's

27:52

lamp, and it said, I will grant you

27:54

your ideal career model right

27:55

now. What would you say that looks like? Or

27:58

do you not have a clear idea of

28:00

that? I think I would like to again,

28:02

this has changed, right, where I was like,

28:04

oh, maybe medicine will be more of a,

28:06

you know, kind of, like, on the

28:08

side, like, couple times a month

28:10

thing, but I am realizing,

28:12

like, in an ideal world, I would love

28:14

to be able to do both. So,

28:16

yeah, I think being both

28:18

either restaurant like owner chef and being

28:20

a physician would be amazing. And

28:23

like I think basically like

28:26

it would be amazing if I could have some work

28:28

life balance where if I can eventually

28:31

build a team that I can be a

28:33

little bit more the kitchen

28:35

and have a team that's running and just kind of

28:37

check-in that would be amazing to be

28:39

able to kind of keep up with both

28:41

because I think I'm so used to, like, hustling

28:43

and grinding and -- Yeah. -- definitely,

28:45

I'm still willing to do that, and I

28:47

do think both fields do require

28:50

hard work. But I do think

28:52

eventually, at some point, I would like to be

28:54

able to enjoy a little bit and

28:56

take a

28:56

breather. So Oh, right now.

28:59

So you mentioned that you didn't have any

29:02

formal training in

29:04

cooking like before you plunged into the

29:06

culinary world where I where as

29:08

I guess, with your practice as a physician,

29:10

like, you went through all the expected steps, like,

29:12

went to school, went to pre med, went

29:14

through all this training to

29:16

become a physician. On

29:18

the other hand, like, on the culinary side

29:20

of things, like, do you ever find yourself

29:22

I don't know. Like, wishing you had a little

29:24

more formal training or kind of finding that

29:26

being able to do

29:26

things, like through experience is kind of enough.

29:29

You know, this

29:29

is something I've definitely thought about a

29:32

lot, like -- Mhmm.

29:34

I always knew that by not having this like one

29:36

on one like formal culinary school

29:38

training that there may be certain

29:40

aspects I'm kind of a little bit

29:42

lacking in. So But, you know,

29:44

I think when I've kind of tried to teach

29:47

myself over the years, I

29:49

tried to have a systematic approach where

29:51

I was Is there an ingredient or

29:53

technique that I'm not as familiar with,

29:55

like and let's try

29:57

to, you know, explore that or teach myself

29:59

that. So despite not having

30:01

to do

30:01

that, I kind of have put that on myself.

30:03

And --

30:04

Mhmm. -- for sure, there is still a lot to learn

30:07

too, but I have found that in the culinary field like I

30:09

mean, I think really an e field like

30:11

your strengths and your skill sets are

30:13

based on the experiences you've

30:15

had and you

30:17

know, who you've worked with.

30:19

So I think in the kitchen, like,

30:21

you always find that you're lacking in

30:23

something, but someone else does it a

30:25

certain way that's easier than what you've done.

30:27

So I think as long as I keep

30:29

an open mind and you

30:31

know, like, obviously, like, be humble, but --

30:33

Mhmm. -- also, you

30:35

know, be confident in that I

30:37

have tried to push myself and teach

30:39

myself. And so I there's things that I

30:41

can bring to the table too. I

30:43

think I'll continue to evolve

30:45

and grow stronger. Mhmm.

30:50

Thank you so so

30:51

much for coming on the show. It has been so

30:53

wonderful speaking with you. Thank you

30:55

so much. It's been an honor

30:58

and thank you for coming to the pop up again

31:00

and stay tuned for more pop

31:01

ups. Oh, of

31:02

course, I can't wait to see what

31:04

you do next. When

31:07

we come back, Karen and I will talk about the balancing act

31:09

of food and medicine, art as a

31:11

form of service and living a life that

31:13

makes you happy. All that

31:16

after this. Hey, everybody.

31:18

It's

31:20

Tim Heidecker. You know me, Tim and Eric,

31:23

Bridesmaids, and the Fantastic Four.

31:25

I'd like to personally invite you to listen to office hours

31:27

live with me and my cohost,

31:29

DJ Doug Pound -- Hello. -- and

31:32

Vic Berger. Paddy. Every week, we bring you

31:34

laughs

31:34

fun, games, and lots of other surprises.

31:36

It's live. We take your Zoom calls. We

31:38

love having fun, excuse me, song

31:40

Vicks said something. Song, music. I

31:42

like having fun. I

31:45

like to love. I like to

31:47

meet people who can make

31:49

me

31:49

laugh. He's subscribe. No.

31:52

Alright.

31:53

Karen, you and I are freelancers.

31:56

You and I have a bunch of different jobs,

31:58

including this podcast. But I

32:00

cannot ethelred imagine being

32:02

an urgent care doctor

32:04

and

32:05

a chef like, what?

32:07

I know. And as I mentioned, I went to a

32:10

handshake pop up that he developed the

32:12

menu for. And when he presented the meal and

32:14

talked about his story, I was just

32:16

totally stunned. Like both of these professions

32:18

are so time consuming and labor

32:19

intensive. It is so impressive

32:22

to me that he's able to balance both.

32:24

Yeah. I mean, it is just rare.

32:26

We we should just think about it for a moment.

32:28

How rare it is when someone is faced

32:30

with the kind of creative crossroad that

32:32

he described in his life, they choose

32:35

both and instead of

32:37

either or even though, you

32:39

know, both medicine and the

32:41

restaurant in I mean, those are jobs that

32:43

normally demand the totality of

32:45

your being twenty four seven. So

32:47

how did he make it

32:47

work? And what can we learn from how he did it? Do

32:50

you think?

32:50

I think part of it has to do with what Ian

32:52

said. We're fortunately both of the places that he's

32:55

working for are willing to afford him a little

32:57

flexibility, and that sorta comes down

32:59

to luck. Like, when I quit working full time at SLAIT, it was because

33:01

I knew I needed to devote more time to my

33:03

book if I ever wanted to finish it,

33:05

and SLAIT wasn't willing at that point to

33:07

offer me leaves, so I had to choose

33:09

one or the other. It was I didn't have that

33:11

kind of flexibility. More

33:13

generally speaking, I think it's

33:15

creatively possible for you to do

33:17

both these things because I think his mindset

33:19

of wanting to cater to his community

33:21

and his mindfulness about health and

33:23

what goes into your body of these things

33:25

are things you consider in medicine and

33:27

in food. So he has a healthy, I

33:30

guess, or well developed attitude, like,

33:32

towards a crossover between the two

33:34

yields. It's interesting to think

33:37

about how those practices are bound

33:39

together by the

33:41

idea of service. I

33:43

always find personally to

33:45

think of creativity in the

33:47

creative act as a gift as a form of

33:49

service to a community as a way

33:51

-- Mhmm. -- of, you know, putting something

33:53

out into the world that maybe makes it a bit better.

33:55

Do you think of your creative practice as a form

33:57

of

33:57

service? Is that a necessary prerequisite

33:59

to making good art?

34:02

At the very least, I think it's difficult

34:04

to create art in a vacuum, which I think

34:06

I've said this before, but I don't think service should

34:09

necessarily be the end goal,

34:11

like you should be creating because the act of

34:13

creation gives you joy and because you feel

34:15

passionate about what kind of story you're telling.

34:17

The difficulty is finding the

34:20

balance between how much you wanna

34:22

consider your audience as opposed to

34:24

solely what you wanna do with your

34:26

art. Sometimes the two things what you like and what an audience will

34:28

like will align, but sometimes they

34:30

won't. And sometimes you have to choose

34:32

one over

34:34

the other, especially if you're not in a position where ignoring your

34:36

audience is possible, whether

34:38

because you're not financially secure enough and

34:40

depend on

34:42

the come your art generates to live or for whatever other reason.

34:44

So there are a lot of factors out there, but I think,

34:46

like, ideally, you have a sort of balance

34:50

between the two things, what your audience

34:52

will think, and what you think of what you're

34:54

making that makes you

34:55

happy. Yeah. It's really interesting thinking

34:57

about, you know, all the various guests

34:59

we've had on here and what the norms are

35:01

in the various fields about how much you're

35:03

supposed to think about your audience or not or care about

35:05

what to think or not. Right? Like it's like Like,

35:07

the the food service folks we've had, it's like, actually, the

35:10

audience is what matters. You know? It's

35:12

like -- Mhmm. -- because you're making food, someone's

35:14

gonna eat it. What they, you know,

35:16

they they you're not making, like, a modernist masterpiece that's

35:18

gonna be controversial or whatever.

35:20

And and yeah. So I just find I

35:22

find the way we think about

35:24

navigating all of

35:26

those questions. Really, really fascinating. Mhmm. I

35:28

also loved that question

35:30

his mentor asked him about

35:32

what made him happy. And

35:36

one thing I loved about his

35:38

story about that is that that

35:40

question was a challenging one to

35:42

him. Yeah. Because it's hard to kind

35:44

of admit this sometimes, but I

35:46

agree it is fraught and

35:48

scary to ask yourself, well, what

35:50

actually makes me happy? Because then you might

35:52

have to go out and change your life to try to do

35:54

that thing. You know, is that a

35:56

question you've asked yourself? Did

35:58

you find it scary to do

35:59

so? How do you navigate

36:01

that? Yeah. It is scary. And it's why I'm

36:03

in LA right now, I would say. And it's

36:05

again, it's a scary question to ask yourself, especially

36:07

if you aren't already in feel

36:09

that you ultimately wanna pursue or think will make you

36:12

happy, which is not, I think, an

36:14

uncommon situation to be in. And it's

36:16

easier to feel discouraged

36:18

and find excuses not to pursue the thing that you think will make you happy

36:20

because it is ultimately a risk. And it

36:22

sort of comes down to something that we've

36:24

discussed a lot on this show, which is whether

36:26

or not you have

36:28

this, like, financial safety net to be able to

36:30

fall back on. Like, if you have a lot

36:32

of wealth, then changing career paths or

36:34

trying something new

36:36

is not really as much of a risk to your livelihood or like

36:38

life in general as it might be for

36:40

someone who doesn't have that safety net and

36:42

for whom quitting a secure

36:44

job that doesn't necessarily make them

36:46

happy would still have like a hugely

36:48

detrimental effect on their life

36:50

and mean that pursuing something else

36:52

would be a gigantic

36:53

gamble. Yeah, totally. I

36:56

mean, the the risk factors and whatever

36:58

vary from person to person. Right? And there

37:00

are

37:01

certainly people who the place where they are in their life, they

37:03

can't even really ask themselves that question. You

37:05

know, because they

37:06

don't have space to it. Like, I had a friend who worked

37:08

and this is someone who had money So

37:10

it's not it's not even about money. Right? They they worked a corporate

37:12

job that was very remunerative. And

37:14

they were like, you know, I

37:17

think my time here is running out. Like, I

37:20

I don't I'm finding the word kind of

37:22

drudgery. I don't really like my manager. You know,

37:24

whatever it is. It's time to

37:26

move on. But work took up so

37:28

much of their consciousness, all the space

37:30

in their life. But they couldn't

37:32

actually figure out, well, what is the next

37:34

thing I wanna do? The only way

37:36

they could figure that out actually was to quit

37:38

their job to give themselves the space,

37:40

which you're not really supposed to do. You're usually supposed to

37:42

leave a job for another

37:44

job. Right? And so it was a really

37:46

tricky thing for them to kind of brace

37:48

themselves to go

37:49

do. It's complicated. Yeah.

37:52

It's

37:52

just never easy to do to risk

37:54

whatever security you have. You

37:57

know, we've had a

38:00

few guests not in a row, but recently that are in the

38:02

culinary world in various places

38:04

over the last few months. And I think we've

38:06

usually been

38:08

each other's co hosts for those episodes. So I'm wondering,

38:10

like, what have you learned

38:12

about cooking as a creative practice?

38:15

From these

38:15

guests. I think the main thing I've learned is

38:18

that I have to be cooking more or I should

38:20

try cooking more because I like, it

38:22

usually makes me nervous that I'm gonna mess up. Like,

38:24

I'm a very instruction oriented person. Like, I love being

38:26

told what to do. Like, I love recipes or,

38:28

like, use exactly like three

38:30

tablespoons of

38:32

this. Or, like, one pinch of this. Like, those are I love doing that.

38:34

But then, like, sometimes I get worried, we're,

38:36

like, our oven isn't quite as hot as, like,

38:39

of what we had in our last apartment, so I need to

38:41

adjust temperature for that or like how much time I put it

38:43

in there

38:44

for. And like what is the best method

38:47

of reheating x? I get worried a lot. I need

38:49

to worry less

38:49

and embrace more. I mean, what's the worst that

38:51

could happen? You could poison yourself in your fiance.

38:53

Right? I mean, like, that's

38:55

not that big

38:56

mean, that seems pretty bad. Yeah. You know what? Now that you mentioned it,

38:58

it's it's pretty bad.

39:03

Well, that's our show for this week. Thank

39:06

you so much for listening, and don't forget

39:08

to subscribe wherever you get

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39:16

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But Flo just like dot com slash working

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39:34

guest, you and tongue. And as always,

39:36

thank you to our scrumptious producer, Cameron Drews. We'll be

39:38

back next week with Isis' conversation with

39:40

novelist V. V. Donation on

39:42

time. Until then, get back

39:44

to work.