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savings and more inspiring flavors. I.

1:09

Think other people are a good love songs

1:11

and I always think that I get it

1:14

wrong because I don't In my about the

1:16

positive in love is my mission to write.

1:19

A real love song which is

1:21

one that's not the oh it's

1:23

all gone tax up and it's

1:25

yeah no it's it's is a

1:27

disaster movie. Welcome

1:30

back to working! I'm your Host

1:32

June Thomas. And I'm your other host,

1:35

Isaac Butler. Isaac It is always so

1:37

nice to chat with you but tell me

1:39

who's voice did we here at the top

1:41

of the show? That was the

1:43

Belief Louis voice of Tracy and

1:45

Campbell, the lead singer and mean

1:48

songwriter of storied indie rock band

1:50

Camera Obscura. And. Why did you

1:52

want to speak with Tracy? I'm right. know. what

1:54

i would talk to treaty and campbell any

1:56

time to remember obscure as breakthrough album let's

1:58

get out of the country, extremely important to

2:01

me. It kind of soundtrack to the

2:03

first few years of my relationship with

2:05

my wife. And you know, that's,

2:07

that's one of those albums that you put on

2:09

just kind of any day and you're like, ah,

2:11

so satisfying. But I'm fairly sure she wanted to

2:14

talk to me because the band

2:16

has a new album out called look to the

2:18

east, look to the west. They've been on hiatus

2:20

for a long time. One of the original band

2:22

members died and the band kind of disbanded afterwards.

2:24

And as we discussed in the course of the

2:27

episode, they, they reformed, they have a new member,

2:29

uh, they're, they're reinvigorated in

2:31

the album kind of reflects that. Wow.

2:34

I cannot wait to hear this conversation, but

2:36

first I need you to tell me, is

2:38

there going to be something extra for slate

2:40

plus members? If so, what will they hear?

2:43

So if you are a fan of camera obscure

2:45

or you read their reviews ever or anything like

2:47

that, you will notice this word come up a

2:49

lot. Twee, twee this, twee

2:51

that, twee, twee, twee, twee, twee, twee,

2:53

twee, twee. And so I thought, why

2:55

not just ask her what she thinks

2:58

of this word that people always use

3:00

when describing her band. Oh

3:02

my goodness. That is one for the ages.

3:04

And if you're a member of slate plus,

3:06

you will hear that at the end of

3:08

the episode. If you aren't,

3:10

it is just incredibly easy to join

3:13

as a slate plus member. You'll get

3:15

to hear extra segments on this show

3:17

and others such as the culture gab

3:19

fest. You will get bonus episodes of

3:21

podcasts like slow burn and amicus,

3:23

which is just on an

3:26

amazing tear right now. And

3:28

of course you'll never hit a

3:30

paywall on slate.com the mothership

3:33

site to learn more. Go to

3:35

slate.com/ working plus. Okay.

3:40

Let's hear Isis conversation with Tracy

3:42

and Kendall. This

3:55

episode of working is brought to you

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by progressive insurance. Hey listeners,

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4:01

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limited by state law. Tracy

5:02

and Campbell, thank you for joining us this

5:04

week on working. You're welcome. Thanks for having

5:06

me. We're all very excited to

5:09

have you and I should just say in advance a

5:11

couple of our questions were written by our producer Kevin

5:13

Bendis because he just loves the band as I do.

5:15

And I was like, Hey, I'm sure you have some

5:17

questions. You play music, so I need to share credit

5:19

with him for some of these. Well, I hope I've

5:21

got the answers. I'm sure you

5:23

do. Let's let's just start

5:26

with the like really

5:28

basic question of, you

5:30

know, where are you in your creative process right

5:32

now? Are you writing songs? Are you practicing with

5:34

the band? Are you taking time off? What's going

5:36

on with you right now? I'm not

5:39

actually writing songs at the minute. I mean,

5:41

it's an ongoing process for me. I've got

5:43

a lot of stuff on at the minute, so personal

5:46

stuff, you know, and and

5:48

I'm practicing with the band for the

5:51

tours. So I think once I

5:53

start going on tour and, you know, I

5:55

start getting into the mindset of

5:57

working again, it'll pick up. have

6:01

lots of songs sitting about that I've worked

6:03

on the past few years that need finishing.

6:06

It's just like kids and things get

6:08

in the road. Do

6:11

you find during these busy times that

6:14

those sorts of creative ideas just don't come or that

6:16

when they come you have to just write a note

6:18

to yourself and be like, I'll get to that later.

6:20

I don't know, a song about a great sandwich I

6:22

had, I'll write that some other time? I

6:25

would say that I sort of consistently

6:28

think about writing songs and if an

6:30

idea comes I'll record or write down

6:32

a lyric but that's not really

6:34

been happening lately which I think is fine because

6:37

I had quite a good creative period there that

6:39

made the record and continue to write songs

6:43

for quite a while and I've got a load,

6:45

I've just got to get some space

6:47

to get back to them. During

6:50

those periods of time when you do have

6:52

the space to write songs, are you someone

6:55

who like dedicates specific time to

6:57

songwriting or does it sort of

6:59

happen more impulsively when an idea

7:01

comes to you? Well, I

7:04

would say the usual

7:06

would be that I would just wait for something

7:08

to come to me impulsively and

7:10

spontaneously, you know, sort of wait

7:12

for them to fly in through

7:14

the window kind of thing but

7:17

having said that, I think like sometimes

7:19

when your life's a bit busy with other

7:21

things like kids or whatever, you

7:23

do sometimes have to sign specific time

7:26

so the past few

7:28

years I was dedicating specific

7:31

time to, I was going to a

7:33

studio in the borders,

7:36

the Scottish borders, not a music studio,

7:38

just a studio, a place where this

7:40

great couple, he's an

7:42

artist and he's an architect and they've built

7:44

this wonderful space at the

7:46

back of their house for creatives

7:48

to go and listen

7:50

to the grouse making a racket at night

7:53

time and look at the hills and the

7:55

sheep and the space has

7:57

just really, it's just got enough stuff in it,

7:59

you know. to clear your head and

8:02

I was going there

8:04

with Donna to place keyboards and

8:06

networks. We were going there

8:09

to dedicate writing time,

8:11

get away from families

8:14

and I did not

8:16

expect that to work but it did work for me and

8:19

it's so satisfying when you go

8:21

there thinking oh I really

8:23

don't really feel like it you know we're not really in

8:25

the mood or whatever and the woman

8:28

Pat who I was telling you runs it or who

8:30

owns it she's an artist and she's

8:33

always got great advice you know she's always just

8:35

like well just sit down and make yourself a

8:37

cup of tea and just look out the window

8:39

for a few hours you know if it comes

8:41

it comes and we've done

8:44

that and we might have nothing in the morning then

8:46

go out for a walk and

8:48

then come back and you know something

8:50

will just trigger it and we've worked that

8:52

quite well together I would say and that's

8:55

so satisfying you

8:58

know. Yeah totally totally.

9:01

Donna is also a relatively new member

9:03

of the band if I recall correctly.

9:05

What would it like to kind of

9:07

open up your songwriting process to a

9:09

new person? I mean I think

9:11

it's the sort of thing if you told me I was going

9:13

to do that I would have said that's not going to

9:16

happen you know before she joined

9:18

but I think and her

9:20

and I we just hit it

9:22

off creatively and on

9:25

a personal level as

9:27

well and I think that pretty soon you realize

9:29

that you're with somebody who

9:32

could sort of match your

9:34

songwriting and your creativity

9:36

and I think maybe

9:39

when I was younger I was less open

9:41

to that and a bit more precious about

9:43

you know doing everything myself and I

9:46

just don't really feel like that anymore I feel if

9:48

you can learn something from somebody or

9:52

you could admit that they sometimes have a better

9:54

idea than you that's alright kind

9:57

of good kind of liberating in the way. Yeah

9:59

it's The I get older, I do find

10:01

it easier to admit that other people are better ideas.

10:04

In a way that's not true, and I was in my twenties.

10:07

I know, I just think the as efficient

10:09

system and you're still going. Now it's a

10:11

i wanted to be my idea, then something's.

10:13

Not quite as ss I just got said

10:15

senior sell at That is not good. Yes,

10:18

once you have it, once you have a

10:20

child, you really learn. My God. just because

10:22

something was your idea does not mean you're

10:24

gonna. You're gonna get it. Only

10:27

lived on the good ideas now anyway. An

10:29

adult men telling? yeah. Yeah. No,

10:31

that's definitely true. when a song first

10:33

kind of comes to you out of

10:35

the ether I don't know how you

10:37

conceptualize it, does it come to you

10:39

Generally melodic we first or as a

10:41

scrap of lyrics are in idea your

10:43

we're weird as attend to begin. says.

10:45

The tens of is talking about less.

10:48

Specific. The saw my

10:50

experience left him with some the I was

10:52

in an interview us and we talked about

10:55

at that this on the pursuing high times

10:57

on in a minute and I was you

10:59

know I wrote that. On. The plane

11:01

and the way back from the both weekend

11:03

that. Centers. On the plane

11:05

I was just reflects and and think

11:07

about what has happened. In

11:09

okay weekend with had are still unclear.

11:12

Emotional. Thing that helps with me

11:14

anyway if I'm feeling a bit. Officers.

11:34

With. A mimosa phase. Of

11:36

gags was ten a long. Time and

11:38

was lots going on in the ball.

11:40

in the new worlds if they were

11:43

than Santa and I just had a

11:45

melody and some linux. Amazing and the

11:47

booty weekender for a listeners who who

11:49

are aware that that is the Belle

11:51

and Sebastian, a cruise that I think

11:54

was a lot of glaswegian bans and

11:56

teenage fanclub and yo la Tengo, right?

11:58

But and. Let's

12:00

encrypt. Just for him up as you

12:02

have for a new all reunited for

12:05

that cancer right? The band had sort

12:07

of been on their said a hiatus

12:09

yeah and with. As we we

12:11

hadn't played source with had not

12:13

been planted. Still, Anniston Ala. Them.

12:16

And they asked us to do the I was playing.

12:19

I don't know if you know but I made a

12:21

record with study Call Clint. Right? John? Cry.

12:23

Baby and they had us done and I to

12:25

do this and it was a plane. Oh sam.

12:28

Slates. Lee or Courts.

12:30

A suggestion that may be without

12:33

the. Up for did some time obscure

12:35

songs which I was no off for,

12:37

didn't. Earn a thing I

12:39

saw said well if you want the

12:41

been to play in a savant play

12:43

Hill and I. Wasn't. expects

12:46

hundred foot. we're

12:48

with decided to do than way.

12:50

We. Started to has and that's really that was

12:53

really the catalyst for us All of us for

12:55

this album, right? All the songs. Pretty.

12:57

Much. Or a

12:59

Baby Huey joins a sort

13:01

of a subgroup of your

13:03

songs like Dory Previn or

13:05

Voice Ready To Be Heartbroken

13:07

that are referencing other musical

13:09

acts. Other song writers on

13:11

what is it about that

13:13

kind of move into the

13:15

song writing that so appealing

13:17

to you. Have. To say

13:19

and an adult really mind admitting that

13:22

by Kenneth though that have some right

13:24

and. Style some

13:26

like cool to see presences,

13:28

six and films and actresses

13:30

and all sorts of things

13:32

and I always was suffering

13:34

fast but out when I

13:36

was younger than the center

13:38

has flex. Around

13:41

the. Regional.

13:47

Of get a little. And

13:49

in the guess I thought, well. You

13:52

know me as well. As

13:54

some think of these things and inspired

13:56

by these people are. They're They're

13:58

making me think of a tree. The thing to

14:00

say, Or of have a beautiful for

14:02

or whatever. And I'm is. well.

14:05

Writer: Wrote. It.

14:08

And in your lyrics you know Schumer is

14:10

also I think really a thing that that

14:12

sets your lyrics apart from a lot of

14:14

other other lyricists. You even on the new

14:16

album song like we're going to make it

14:18

in a man's world you're You're for some

14:20

is called under Achievers Please Try Harder which

14:22

has a you know. There's

14:25

a real sense of humor to it. How

14:27

conscious of that kind of tone of voice

14:29

are you in writing lyrics as it is

14:31

a just you know you have a sense

14:33

of humor in it. Comes on, you're running,

14:35

you think like I'm running a Camera Obscura

14:37

song where the jokes. As an assist

14:39

I don't think about making jokes

14:41

are funny or I think it's

14:44

probably the most. I mean,

14:46

I'm I'm a Scottish. For and prayers says

14:48

well and it's probably more spreads

14:50

thing. About him you know

14:52

we do have a tendency

14:54

to make fun of ourselves

14:57

and players earn at the

14:59

and you know see this,

15:01

the Humor in Dark or

15:03

Sad or. Difficult.

15:06

Things. But. At the when

15:08

I don't consciously try to write in

15:10

any well as the things I'm surprised

15:12

some sense into the sea sign on

15:14

that know alex are quite funny or

15:16

something like oh. Okay, Sir.

15:20

Right? right? Once it comes time to like

15:22

share the song with the ban like what

15:25

state is the songs in at that point

15:27

in what form does it exist or you'd

15:29

kind of singing a to them? Is there

15:31

a demo? You know, some. Well usually

15:33

I mean vicinity I may be. Just

15:36

come in and. Desist you.

15:40

To time. In front of

15:42

them in cook that the. Lawsuit

15:45

with sale of it as records

15:47

and any of them was on

15:49

the I Foods. Such. As

15:51

sat. on my own i

15:53

mean i think the thing as some of his

15:56

sons not many of them some of the let

15:58

it's and stuff for written already aura have

16:00

I had a melody even there and I think

16:02

I thought I'll put them all on. I'll just

16:04

record all of them. Some

16:07

might not have had every lyric written

16:09

or you know the structure certainly was

16:11

never set in stone because that's something

16:13

that the band does

16:16

generally with me for most of

16:18

the songs and generally

16:20

the demos, all my demos tend to be

16:22

just me and an acoustic guitar and an

16:25

electric guitar and they all sound quite miserable

16:27

and slow to be honest with you, even

16:29

the ones that end up fast and

16:32

they're not fancy and sometimes my guitar is out of

16:34

tune or I've pressed some weird

16:36

button on the iPad and it makes it sound

16:38

kind of wonky. In fact there

16:40

was a sort of natural kind of wonkiness

16:42

that on some of those demos that

16:44

I really liked but I would never be able to recreate it. I

16:47

don't know what I was doing, I'm

16:49

not very technical. So the

16:51

kind of arrangement of the song happens within

16:53

the band, you're not coming in and being

16:55

like the bass line should be this and

16:57

the organ should be this. No no no

16:59

no not at all, I mean certainly not this. Maybe

17:01

back in the day I would be definitely a bit

17:03

more controlling or naturally

17:05

felt like I was feeling very

17:07

creative and I would wake up

17:10

in the night with guitar lines

17:12

and you know try to

17:14

sing it into my phone and if I

17:16

have those ideas I'll always tell

17:19

people could you do something like this or

17:21

would you do something like that. But this

17:23

time very much

17:25

less of that actually and

17:28

much less of me specifying

17:31

or asking for specific

17:35

melodies to be played just maybe the

17:37

odd thing here and there but I

17:40

actually didn't play anything

17:42

much on the record at all. I think

17:44

I maybe played guitar in like one or

17:46

two songs so I didn't really,

17:49

it's a strange thing but it's actually

17:51

only my voice that's on

17:54

that record. I'm not really playing with

17:56

a band. How did that feel? I didn't like it. be

18:00

honest. I'll be honest, I did not really

18:02

like it but Yara,

18:05

the producer, wanted me to just

18:08

to sing. Maybe

18:11

he thinks I'm a rubbish guitar player, I'm not sure. It's

18:14

interesting because you know one thing that's

18:16

sort of underlying all of this is

18:18

collaboration which we talk about a lot

18:21

on this show. You've collaborated with a

18:23

lot of different artists and producers and

18:25

things like that. What to you makes

18:27

for a good collaboration

18:29

even beyond the skill sets of the

18:31

people you're working with? I

18:34

think it's just being open and honest

18:36

and trusting people, being able

18:38

to trust them and not feeling inferior.

18:40

I think I would have talked myself out of

18:43

a lot of things in the past that I

18:45

would not do now. I still

18:48

do get the fear

18:50

when I'm asked to do a thing with somebody

18:52

whether it's sing on a record or you

18:55

know whatever, write a song with them or I

18:57

still think oh I get that sort of

18:59

imposter syndrome thing but when I'm

19:02

feeling sort of lucid and confident

19:05

enough you know at the end of the day

19:07

we're all just creating

19:09

something. It's just a song, there's no

19:11

writing, there's no wrong really. Nobody's really

19:13

better at doing it than anybody else

19:16

so I think it's just getting

19:19

the sense that the person

19:21

you're working with is your

19:24

equal or something and that they treat

19:26

you in that way as well. It's

19:28

funny you mentioned imposter syndrome because I

19:30

think you know most people would think

19:33

you know by the time you're at the

19:35

level you're at you've released several critically beloved

19:37

albums that have charted, you've toured all over

19:39

the world, you're in your 40s now, etc

19:41

etc etc that at some point it would

19:46

go away but it's sort of like you just have to

19:48

learn how to deal with that as opposed to get rid

19:50

of it. Yeah you just learn how

19:52

to deal with it, it doesn't really go away. Even

19:56

when I was writing these songs I

19:58

was thinking is this just a song? a load

20:00

of crap, like what is this, is this, what

20:03

are people going to think about this? I think it

20:05

was the time as well and also I've been sort

20:07

of out of the game a little bit, you

20:09

know, and I think that's what a lot

20:11

of the record is about, it is about me sort of

20:13

going, are you any good, are you

20:15

good enough, you know, what

20:17

is it you do again, who are

20:19

you, what are you doing here on this planet,

20:22

what is it you're doing, you know? So there's

20:25

always that kind of feeling, oh

20:27

god, I've got the right songs, how do

20:29

you do that again? It's easy once you

20:32

get started. We'll

20:36

be back with more of Ice's conversation with

20:38

Tracy Ann Campbell. We've

20:51

all been there. You have a question

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23:10

let's return to Isaac's conversation

23:12

with Tracy-Ann Campbell. You

23:15

have written I think literally dozens

23:17

of love songs and maybe it's because

23:20

I just saw Magnetic Fields

23:22

perform 69 love songs but

23:24

I'm wondering from a craft perspective

23:27

like to you what makes for a

23:29

really good love song like what are

23:31

the ingredients in a great love song?

23:34

See I think other people write

23:36

good love songs I think Carole King writes

23:38

good love songs and I always think that

23:41

I get it wrong because I don't

23:43

write about the positive in love you

23:45

know it's my mission to write

23:48

a real love song which is a

23:50

is one that's optimistic

23:52

about the optimism of love

23:54

and not the oh it's

23:56

all gone tits up and it's you know it's

24:00

is a disaster movie. So

24:05

I don't know that I've actually done that. You

24:07

know, I've written about love, I've written about

24:09

being in love, I've written about the pain

24:12

of being in love, I've written about falling

24:15

out of love. I

24:17

do have a personal sort of

24:19

bet with myself to

24:22

write an actual love

24:24

song. Scotland,

24:29

and especially Glasgow of course have

24:31

a very storied music scene. You

24:33

know, everyone from you

24:36

to Belle and Sebastian, Orange Juice, you

24:38

know Maguire, you know etc. Do

24:41

you think of yourself as being

24:44

like part of a lineage? Is that something

24:46

that's important to you or to thinking about

24:48

the band and the sound? I

24:50

think it's a great, we've got a great music

24:52

scene and it's one to be proud of and

24:54

it's an inspiring one and I think that I

24:58

might not have been able to see it in

25:00

the past but I can see now that, you

25:02

know, without all those groups, without the grassroots

25:06

venues and promoters and the

25:08

love for music in

25:11

the city, we wouldn't really

25:13

have stood a

25:15

chance. We

25:17

wanted to be like Peering's

25:19

Fan Club and the Vaseline's and the

25:22

Pastel's and we wanted to be like

25:25

the Bells and the Cocktail Twins

25:27

and Orange Juice and

25:30

Jesus and Mary Jane, all

25:33

those bands, you know. Do

25:36

you experience the thing where like younger bands

25:38

in that scene now look up to you

25:40

in some way in the same way that

25:42

you used to look up to, I don't know,

25:44

Edwin Collins or whatever? I

25:46

mean, I'm always amazed when somebody says, oh I

25:48

love your band. I'm just like, really?

25:53

You know, so I'm always

25:56

flattered that that could be

25:58

the case. And then I

26:00

feel old. The

26:03

downside to being admired, you're like, oh wait, I'm

26:05

now old enough to be admired. I'm

26:08

old enough to be admired. You

26:11

know, one thing that I

26:13

really love about your body of work is

26:15

the way the sound on each of the

26:17

albums has kind of transformed a bit. You

26:20

know, I think about like the

26:22

opening of Lloyd I'm Ready to Be Heartbroken

26:24

with that organ coming in, you know,

26:26

and the strings on that song. They're announcing

26:28

this is a really different sound from Under

26:30

Achievers or maybe a development of that song.

26:37

And then by the time we get

26:39

to Desire Lines with the mixing of

26:42

the drums and the kind of soft

26:44

horn on that first track and then

26:46

the new one there's even synthesizer and

26:48

Nashville sound and your husband Tim Davidson

26:50

plays pedal steel and all this great

26:52

stuff. I'm

27:01

curious how you thought about each of

27:03

those evolutions and what kind of made

27:06

them develop in that way. I mean,

27:08

I think that, you know, all

27:10

along we were just kind

27:13

of getting in a room together and trying

27:15

to make music we like the sound of. I

27:17

was always just trying to sort of

27:20

take influence from music that I

27:22

loved. Nothing really

27:24

much has changed except I

27:27

think we're just a bit better at it now. And

27:29

I think like definitely the first

27:31

two albums were very self produced and we

27:33

didn't have a clue what we're doing. You

27:35

know, that first record, that's the first

27:38

bunch of songs I ever wrote in my life. And we

27:40

just didn't know what we're

27:42

doing. You know, we're super

27:44

naive about it. We weren't cocky. We weren't

27:47

the kind of band that were

27:49

trying to invent the wheel or,

27:52

you know, I mean, I'm not putting

27:54

this down, but it was nothing. We weren't creating a

27:56

new sound, you know, we weren't paving the way, you

27:58

know, we were doing. We

28:00

were just playing in a

28:02

very sort of unpretentious way,

28:05

but trying to make the songs the best

28:08

that they could be. And I think when

28:11

Yana came on the scene and

28:13

we made Let's Get Out of

28:15

This Country, we surprised ourselves. I

28:17

think we were probably lacking a bit

28:19

of confidence and

28:21

we knew we wanted something, we were searching for something

28:23

but we didn't know what it was. I

28:26

think he just managed to tap into something

28:29

that was there already that we had, we

28:31

had something. I can't sort

28:33

of say on air some of the

28:35

things that he described us, but you

28:37

would say we were stripey

28:40

t-shirted, Bill and Sebastian

28:42

Monabees, that kind of thing. And I was

28:44

going, no, we're not, that is not what

28:46

we're trying to be like. We might be

28:49

doing that, but we're trying to sound like,

28:51

I don't know, you know, Kiss

28:53

Montes or I'm trying to

28:56

write songs that are songs that Pichola

28:58

Clark would sing or you know whatever. Yes,

29:01

I think what I'm saying is Yari's

29:04

production on that record and in

29:06

my modern career was so

29:08

crucial to us developing

29:12

and maturing as a group and

29:14

creating our sound. You

29:16

know, that sound was the sound that we made

29:18

in that studio, all

29:20

playing live and I

29:22

couldn't believe when it was played

29:25

back to me that that's what we sounded like.

29:27

And I think for this record,

29:30

I think it sounds different again, like you say with

29:32

the synthesizers and

29:34

keyboards and that's having another

29:36

member who knows how

29:39

to use a keyboard in

29:41

a certain way and who's

29:44

not scared to be creative with it.

29:47

Live, do you still play songs from

29:50

those first two albums from Under Achievers

29:52

or Hi-Fi? I think there's

29:54

a couple of songs in there, yeah,

29:56

not many, but there's a

29:58

few. I was actually just sitting before

30:01

this trying to do some set lists

30:03

for rehearsing because we're just we're trying

30:05

to rehearse too many songs at the

30:07

minute and it's a bit confusing for

30:09

everybody and I'm trying to

30:11

you know it's difficult to know what to play

30:13

but there's a little spring kind of one

30:16

or two songs but it's mainly you

30:18

know mainly let's get this country my modern

30:21

career I suppose. Got it.

30:23

Yeah yeah yeah of course of course I

30:26

mean what's it like to revisit as

30:28

you said the first few songs you ever

30:30

wrote or did what? Absolute cringe

30:32

it's cringy it's like it's

30:35

torturous sometimes when

30:37

I'm singing some of the lyrics I'm like oh

30:39

my god kill me now you know but

30:42

right you can't have that attitude

30:44

to it I do hear

30:46

the sort of innocence in them you know I

30:49

am sort of singing about a different

30:52

person or a different person's perspective so

30:55

sometimes it's I

30:57

don't love it but I can't afford

30:59

to let my ego get in the way of

31:02

it I don't I'm not gonna go get

31:04

on a stage and say we're just going to

31:06

play songs from the new album and stuff

31:08

you lot it's not really about us when you get

31:11

when you get on a stage you're playing for an

31:13

audience you're playing for a crowd to have bought a

31:15

ticket to come and see you and you know that

31:17

we want certain songs it's not about what you want

31:19

really well for us anyway you

31:21

know we're always trying to please what

31:24

do they want to the point

31:26

where we obsessively like sort

31:28

of counted all the sort

31:30

of requests for songs and

31:32

we actually ordered them to see what was

31:34

coming up number one and right so we've

31:36

got to play that like one to seven

31:38

or something like we must play those songs

31:41

because you mean like that people shout out from the

31:43

audience and like we asked on we

31:45

asked on like facebook or something oh

31:47

got it yeah and actually generally

31:49

when we play it again somebody's shouting

31:51

out for a song and we can busk it we'll

31:53

do it and we'll try to

31:55

do that you know and they as

31:58

well right You

32:00

know, one of the things that Kevin

32:02

and I were talking about this earlier is,

32:04

you know, these incredible kind of arrangements,

32:08

often a kind of early 60s wall of sound

32:10

orchestra, string instruments, organs, guitars, you

32:12

know, you don't bring all that with

32:14

you, I assume. I don't think on the road you

32:16

have like a four piece string section playing with you

32:18

and stuff. So what's it

32:20

like to re-approach those songs and kind

32:23

of rejigger them for the live context?

32:25

I think you just have to be sort of take it

32:27

easy on yourself. I think that I

32:30

can see the beauty in seeing a band playing

32:32

live and them sounding

32:34

completely different from what the record does.

32:36

I have to say that actually, you

32:38

know, we're not looking for perfection. You

32:41

can only use what you've got. So we've never done that.

32:44

I mean, we do have comfort and

32:47

we do have percussion. I

32:49

could never really feel comfortable

32:51

doing without those things. But

32:54

in terms of strings, and we've maybe

32:56

played the odd gig where we've

32:58

had players. I

33:01

don't know, you just pick out what the important

33:04

melodies are and you just make it

33:06

a bit more rock and

33:08

roll or something. I don't know. My

33:10

kid would cringe at me saying that. He'd be like, don't say

33:13

that. You're so un-cool. You

33:16

know, it's interesting because, you know, like living in New

33:18

York City, I do sometimes get to see the band

33:20

actually, you know, they'll hire a string section for that

33:22

gig or whatever, you know, like I saw, I don't

33:25

know, like Janelle Monae at the Apollo and she

33:27

had three horn players and four string players or

33:29

Belin Sebastian at Prospect Park Vanshell and they had

33:31

a string section. We can't

33:33

afford that to be frank with you.

33:36

Right. It does drive the, it does

33:38

make the price of putting on the concert insane, it

33:40

seems to me. It's already insane.

33:42

So I don't want to start moaning about that.

33:44

You know, it's, I

33:47

think keeping things simple, especially for us because

33:49

we're not constantly on the road, you

33:51

know, we're, we're doing this for the

33:53

first time properly and a long

33:55

time, you know, eight years

33:58

Or something. Someone

34:00

are. Not really as a

34:02

band aid on turf in a long time

34:05

with played. Ever. Police.

34:07

Shows in the last nine years or something, you

34:09

know, Right right? So. I

34:12

think that was a lie the with Us

34:14

record as well. that's that's why we didn't

34:16

go for big production and not in that

34:19

sense. I think they wanted something and summer

34:21

and something that was just about us for

34:23

us and about us and and not. And

34:25

the also, well what can we do just

34:27

ourselves. Let. Myself a session. You.

34:31

Are obviously the the reason why the

34:33

band went on hiatus is because of

34:35

the passing away of of Carry Land

34:37

Or we're one of the members. the

34:39

Pan Am one of your closest friends.

34:41

Oh yeah, so it sounds too sir

34:43

you can. Would you almost need to

34:45

learn how to do the band again?

34:48

As saying by because cause do one person is is

34:50

missing or as you know like who it is a

34:52

change in everything I got a how did you all

34:55

figure out how to do that because it just seems

34:57

that just seems like a real challenge to to me.

34:59

But I'm not a bad so I don't know. I

35:02

think if I see no. A

35:05

kind of kim a bad as a

35:07

sad whereas play The Bills. staying in

35:09

the Side to Harrison The Dawn on

35:11

click click click think we realized that

35:13

there was a new lease of lies.

35:16

With. And as ill with my is the

35:18

same the right person. Which

35:21

is a stock a lot. Click us. He

35:23

could have just hired. A. Session

35:25

Tacit or something. A bit of plate

35:27

spot on. But. Would

35:29

never been that kind of group

35:31

of Ospina group the lowest been

35:33

a bands and I think we

35:35

were not looking to replace Kibbutz.

35:37

Listen to have somebody who could

35:39

say n and. Be.

35:42

Clear out and join and and Mccain and

35:44

and I think we just looked out without

35:46

in the thing. Because. Of

35:48

that. We. Actually sounds of

35:50

have not a really good time and in

35:52

some ways a better time than with had

35:55

for years. You know the bad at a

35:57

new lease of life. And

35:59

new. energy. So it was actually

36:01

quite easy in a way because

36:04

it was just enjoyable. And

36:06

when you've lost a thing as well and you've

36:09

taken away and you can't take it

36:11

for granted anymore, it's

36:13

like anything isn't it? You

36:16

really appreciate it. You're

36:18

humbled by it or something. Right.

36:21

I'm also curious because there

36:25

is this kind of nostalgia

36:27

industry that is cropped up of

36:29

bands that were popular in the lot. Bands I

36:31

loved in the lots. It's all bands I loved

36:34

in the lots. They're all bad. And while

36:37

it's been fun to see Stereo Lab and Concert

36:39

again and stuff like that, I'm

36:41

just curious about you

36:43

all are putting out new music. You're not

36:45

just reissuing old music. You're not doing the

36:47

concert where you're playing an album start to

36:49

finish or anything like that. And

36:51

I'm curious how you, maybe it was

36:54

never a question for you, but certainly

36:56

you've seen your peers do that and

36:58

I'm interested in why you decided to

37:00

go this other route instead of producing

37:02

new music, going on tour with those

37:05

songs. Yeah. I don't know.

37:07

Because we could have done that, I guess. We

37:09

did have to sit down and think about that.

37:11

If we want to play some

37:13

shows, what kind of band do we

37:16

want to be? Do we want to be a band that turns

37:19

up and flies to Spain

37:22

and just plays the greatest

37:24

hits or something? I

37:26

think it just didn't appeal to

37:28

me. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think

37:30

it's great that bands can, I love,

37:33

I haven't managed to catch Stereo

37:35

Lab. I love them and I'd

37:37

love to have seen Pavement again

37:39

and lots of groups that I loved.

37:42

But I think I had something

37:44

to say. I had a lot to

37:46

say. And I think if

37:48

I didn't have anything to say then we might have

37:50

done that. But I had something

37:53

to say and I still had, I

37:56

felt like my songwriting could have been a bit of

37:59

a problem. improve, I think it's,

38:02

I was trying to improve it. I think when

38:04

you've got nothing to say and you don't want

38:06

to improve or you've got nothing to

38:08

express then that's fine but I

38:10

felt like, and I still feel

38:13

like I do. So

38:16

making new music was, you

38:19

know, it's a logistical nightmare for us at

38:21

the minute to do it because people have

38:23

got jobs and kids and all sorts of

38:25

things but there's a will there and it

38:28

was hard thought to make the record and

38:31

it's hard thought to go on

38:33

tour and leave for six

38:35

weeks and try and do it

38:37

and then for people to come back and slot into

38:40

their ordinary lives for their jobs

38:42

and their lives and their kids and the

38:45

school run and all that but, you know,

38:48

we're not on the plane yet but we're nearly

38:50

there and we're nearly doing it. I can't believe we're doing

38:52

it. I still almost can't believe

38:54

we managed to make the record. You

38:57

know, it's a big deal for us. Tracey

39:03

and Campbell, thank you so much for joining us this week

39:05

on Working to Talk about Your Process. Cheers,

39:08

thank you. Up

39:13

next, Isaac and I will talk

39:15

about imposter syndrome, getting back

39:17

to creative work after a break and

39:20

the tricky question of comparison. Isaac,

39:28

that was such a fascinating

39:31

conversation and as a proud resident

39:33

of Scotland, I cannot tell you

39:35

how much I love hearing Scottish

39:38

accents on our show. One

39:40

thing I'm curious about, Tracey

39:42

Ann's ouija accent was noticeable

39:45

but I wonder, does she

39:47

sing with a Scottish accent? I

39:50

remember a Slate article from 2012 which

39:53

we will link to in the

39:55

show notes that explained why most

39:57

British singers and others sound American

39:59

when they sing. But does Tracy

40:01

Anne, do camera obscura sound Scottish?

40:04

I do think they sound Scottish. I think

40:07

they sound specifically Glaswegian. We talked about that

40:09

interview about the Glasgow sound, the Glasgow scene

40:11

that they came out of and of course

40:13

the band has long had a close relationship

40:16

with Belin Sebastian. Stuart Murdoch, who's

40:18

the front man for Belin Sebastian, produced their first two

40:20

albums. He and Campbell were in a relationship for a

40:22

while, etc. So I'm going

40:24

to say there's a spectrum of Scottishness

40:26

in vocals. So on

40:28

the very Scottish side of the spectrum,

40:30

you have Edwin Collins, particularly when he

40:33

was singing with the band Orange Juice.

40:35

I mean that is a very Scottish accent. On

40:40

the other

40:47

side of it, you've got Teenage Man Club, where the

40:49

vocals don't sound Scottish at all. In

40:52

fact, I took a long time to realize that he's in firm. In

41:07

the middle, you have Stuart Murdoch

41:09

and Tracy Anne Campbell, I think.

41:12

Tracy Anne, it's very clearly a Scottish

41:14

person, even if she doesn't do the

41:16

full R on the vocals, right? I

41:19

would also say she's really influenced

41:21

by Wall of Sound era, you

41:24

know, Phil Spector-produced American music and

41:26

also singers from the more psychedelic

41:28

end of country like Lee Hazelwood.

41:30

She has this just wonderful melancholy,

41:32

slightly breathy voice that she's one

41:34

of the great singers recording right

41:36

now. It

41:50

was fascinating to hear Tracy Anne, someone

41:52

who has had a successful

41:55

indie music career for 20 years, talking

41:57

about impostor syndrome in such a way that she's a

41:59

very talented a down-to-earth way. I

42:01

really appreciated hearing how she deals

42:04

with it, but I wonder if

42:06

you have developed any strategies to

42:08

overcome the kind of unnecessary self-doubt

42:10

that so many of us are

42:12

prone to. Yeah, you know,

42:14

that's interesting. There's

42:17

been a lot of imposter syndrome kind of

42:19

discourse out there, you know, and a lot

42:21

of questions about whether it's gendered or not

42:23

and, you know, things like that. And I

42:26

don't know that I experience it as gendered because I

42:29

feel and have felt imposter syndrome all the

42:31

time. I don't feel it as

42:33

much anymore simply because like, look, I've been

42:35

doing this for a long time now, right?

42:37

I graduated from graduate school over a decade

42:40

ago. I've published two books. I've had a

42:42

couple podcasts. I work very hard

42:44

at what I do. I know a lot of

42:46

people in the field. I have a certain understanding

42:49

of the world and culture that's somewhat hard won.

42:51

And if I don't know something, I actually know

42:53

someone I can call up and ask. And so

42:55

I do think that when I look at my

42:58

life, I go, okay, in a lot of situations,

43:00

I actually shouldn't be experiencing imposter syndrome, except this

43:02

is when I get it. When

43:05

I interview people, that's when I experience it.

43:07

Not because I feel like I don't know how

43:09

to interview. I've done hundreds of interviews at this

43:11

point. I think I'm okay at it.

43:13

You know what I mean? But because I'm

43:16

almost never interviewing someone about something that I am

43:18

an expert on because otherwise, why would I talk

43:20

to them? Do you know what I mean? It's

43:22

like, usually when I'm interviewing someone, it's because they

43:24

are a master or an expert at something and

43:26

I want to learn from them, whether

43:28

it's for research or for this show or

43:31

whatever. So what I have to keep

43:33

telling myself in those moments is like, actually, you shouldn't

43:35

be the expert. It's wrong to be

43:37

the expert. If you were the

43:39

expert, you would be being interviewed. Because otherwise,

43:41

what happens is you get, and

43:43

I've talked to other people who do interviews about

43:45

this, you get self-conscious and you start wanting to

43:48

prove yourself to the subject. And

43:50

then the interview becomes about your insecurity,

43:52

not about them. And if

43:54

there's one thing an interview needs to be

43:56

about, it's about the person being interviewed, not

43:59

the person doing the interview. Amen,

44:01

no. I know exactly what you're talking

44:03

about, yes. It was really

44:05

interesting to hear about all that's involved

44:08

in getting back on the road when

44:10

a band hasn't toured in eight years. And

44:13

I was really happy to hear that they're

44:15

enjoying it all the more for having been

44:17

away for so long. That

44:19

felt very positive. Now,

44:21

obviously, there are lots of things about

44:23

pop and rock music that are

44:26

different from nonfiction writing or painting,

44:28

for example. But the idea of

44:30

having to prepare to return to a

44:32

key part of your artistic practice, in

44:34

this case, playing live in front of

44:36

an audience, that felt very relatable

44:38

to me. My book comes out

44:41

in, oh my goodness, less than three weeks. And

44:43

what is it called? Oh, yes.

44:45

It's called A Place of Our Own, Six

44:48

Spaces That Shaped Queer Women's Culture. And can

44:50

you pre-order it? Can you pre-order it? Oh

44:52

gosh, you can pre-order it in so many

44:54

places. Do you think our listeners know that

44:56

pre-orders are actually incredibly important to a book's

44:58

sales because they indicate to a bookstore that

45:00

customers are interested in the book, which then

45:03

causes the bookstore to stock more copies of

45:05

the book, which causes the book to sell

45:07

more copies? They do now.

45:09

Very well. Yeah. All

45:12

right. Sorry. Go on. Well,

45:15

preparing for that publication date means I haven't

45:17

been doing the research and writing that I

45:19

consider my job now. And I've

45:21

been away from it for so long, even though

45:23

it's not literally been that long, but it feels

45:25

like it's been a long time, that I'm kind

45:27

of wondering if I'll know how to get back

45:29

to it. And I'm suspecting that

45:31

you must have gone through something like that

45:33

when your book, The Method, How the Twentieth

45:36

Century Learned to Act, came out. And

45:39

now you're deep into your next book, of course, but

45:41

do you have any tips for

45:43

getting back to a core

45:45

part, maybe the core part of

45:47

the creative process after a break?

45:50

Well, yeah, after my book, which is

45:52

now in paperback, wherever books are sold,

45:54

came out, this

45:56

is actually, I'm going to learn from my mistake here,

45:58

June. I got too

46:01

anxious about the juice coming

46:03

back. I loved the

46:05

part in the interview where Tracy Ann said, you

46:08

know, I've been songwriting for a while and I

46:10

know that when I need to be creative, I

46:12

can be and I'm not that worried about it.

46:14

I wish I had had that confidence after the

46:16

method came out. I was in a constant tizzy

46:18

about, am I ever gonna write another book? Am

46:20

I still creative? Why can't I think straight? You

46:22

know, why do I only wanna read murder mysteries?

46:24

You know, is my brain broken? Is it ever

46:26

coming back? And there's been two other times

46:28

in my life where that's happened to me. One was after

46:30

my kid was born because your brain stops working. And

46:32

the other was after I had COVID, you

46:35

know, because I was sort of, it took a while for me

46:37

to sort of come back fully online, shall we say. That

46:40

anxiety is not helpful. It doesn't do

46:42

anything. Nothing comes of that. Artists

46:44

actually need fallow periods. They need to put

46:46

something into the world. They need to learn

46:48

from how the world responds to it. And

46:50

they also need to like have

46:53

this kind of, I'm becoming the next stage

46:55

of whoever I am of

46:57

their lives and experience art,

46:59

experience their social life, you know,

47:02

and grow as a person and then

47:04

use all of that for the next

47:06

work of art. I

47:08

wish I had done more of that, honestly. I

47:10

mean, I don't think my next book is gonna

47:12

be bad or anything, but there's part of me

47:14

that's like, you know, I think I would be

47:16

in a little bit of a better place just

47:18

creatively and with my gestalt as a human being.

47:20

If I had made my piece with the fact

47:22

that I was gonna be fallow for

47:25

a while and it was time to just go to museums

47:27

or read a book for pleasure or walk around for a

47:29

day and just not worry

47:31

about running out of ideas. They

47:33

will always come back unless

47:36

you're Fran Leibowitz. Ha

47:38

ha ha. Yeah,

47:40

all right. I appreciated how

47:42

you and Tracy Ann talked

47:45

about how camera obscura have been

47:47

compared to other groups and artists

47:49

over the years. I loved

47:51

her line, stripey t-shirted, Bell and

47:53

Sebastian wannabes. Yeah, classic. Well, they are

47:55

wearing stripey t-shirts on the cover of their

47:58

first two albums. So like. What

48:00

are you going to do? Striped T-shirts are

48:02

super cool. You

48:04

mentioned the lineage of Glasgow

48:06

indie bands, which is

48:08

a great reminder that linking bands together is

48:11

not inherently negative, but

48:13

I feel like music is particularly prone

48:16

to this kind of, I guess you

48:18

could call it contextualizing, where somebody might

48:20

say, what's this new band like? And

48:22

the answer might be, well, their camera

48:24

obscura meets Yolatango if they

48:26

once rode in an elevator with the best. Maybe

48:29

that's changed a bit in the age of streaming,

48:31

where there's not so much money on the line.

48:34

If you want to check out a new band, you can just actually

48:36

listen to them. But I

48:38

am curious if you find that kind

48:40

of comparison or contextualization useful

48:43

when you hear about a new TU

48:45

group. And if you think that that

48:47

is unique to music criticism,

48:49

I don't know that boot critics

48:51

do that very much, for example. Yeah,

48:54

I think this can be a really

48:56

double edged sword. I should say I'm

48:58

very suspicious of it in general. My

49:00

gut instinct is negative because this really

49:03

comes out of marketing language. This does

49:05

not come out of sincere

49:07

creative interaction with the work of

49:09

art. You know, it particularly

49:11

comes out of trying to pitch movies

49:13

in Hollywood. The old adage was you

49:15

wanted to be able to say, it's

49:18

like X meets Y. And there was

49:20

all this news coverage of that being

49:22

how Hollywood pitches worked. And then I

49:24

remember that's really vividly. All of a sudden,

49:26

all discussion of movies that lay

49:28

people were having put it in those terms. Yeah,

49:31

it's die hard on a boat, you know. And

49:33

I just remember that very vividly happening. And

49:36

I feel like it's that marketing driven corporate

49:38

shit has taken over everything. Like I love

49:40

my local indie bookstore. But when I go

49:43

there now, you know, the little cards that

49:45

say that they like the shelf readers,

49:47

I think shelf talkers. It's a found

49:49

family locked room cozy mystery for people

49:51

who love Gideon the Ninth and Murder

49:53

on the Orient Express. They all fucking

49:55

read like that. And my soul dies

49:58

every time. It's like a. Book is

50:00

not just tropes. A work of art

50:02

is not just the checklist you can

50:04

reduce it to. And it is ultimately

50:07

anti-art to do that because all you're

50:09

looking for is, you know, what boxes

50:11

you can tick. Now, that being said,

50:15

the other side of it is, it

50:18

is also true that more and more

50:20

art comes out just all the time.

50:22

It's all being made all over the

50:24

place. And thanks to streaming and social

50:26

media and everything, we have never been

50:28

able to access more in our lives.

50:30

And so we are always looking for

50:32

people to curate that fire hose for

50:34

us and to describe it in

50:36

ways that we can very quickly make a

50:38

decision about whether we are gonna like it

50:40

or not, whether it's worth our time. And

50:42

that's what that shorthand does. I

50:45

think that is valuable. At

50:47

the same time, if we go

50:49

too far into the shorthand, we

50:52

never get to experience anything unfamiliar. We're

50:55

just getting the same stuff recombined and

50:57

launched back at us. And I think

50:59

it's important as human beings to try

51:01

the unfamiliar and to stretch ourselves and

51:03

to see what we discover. Oh,

51:06

right on. Isaac Butler, yes. We

51:11

hope you have enjoyed the show. If

51:13

you have, remember to subscribe wherever you

51:16

get your podcasts. Then you will never miss

51:18

an episode. And just a reminder

51:20

that by joining Slate Plus, you'll get

51:22

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51:29

learn more, go to slate.com/working plus.

51:33

Thank you to Tracy Ann Campbell and to

51:35

our wonderful producer, Cameron Drews, who makes sure

51:37

our career is never maudlin. We'll

51:40

be back next week with Ronald's conversation with

51:42

a writer you may have heard of. Her

51:44

name is June Thomas. Until

51:46

then, get back to work. you