0:00

It's time to reboot your credit card

0:02

with Apple card. Apple card is

0:04

designed to help you pay less interest

0:07

Unlike other cards, it estimates how

0:09

much interest you'll owe and suggests

0:11

moves to help you pay off your balance faster.

0:14

Also, you can keep more of your

0:17

money. Apply now in the wallet

0:19

app on iPhone and start using it

0:21

right away. Subject to credit approval,

0:24

interest estimates on the payment wheel are

0:26

illustrative only and may not fully

0:28

reflect actual interest charges

0:30

on your account. Estimates are

0:32

based on your posted account balance at the

0:34

time of the estimate and do not include

0:37

pending transactions or any other purchase

0:39

says you may make before the end of the billing

0:41

period. Hello,

0:50

and welcome to another episode of

0:52

Working Overtime. Working's biweekly

0:55

advice focused Lady Gaga two

0:57

workings, Madonna. I'm your

0:59

host, June Thomas, and I'm

1:01

your other host, Karen Hahn. Karen,

1:04

it's been a couple of months now since

1:06

your book came out. How are you feeling now

1:08

that it's out in the world? It still

1:10

feels very strange. I think

1:13

the fact that I had like all my New York book

1:15

events, which thank you so much to everyone who

1:17

came, that has taken

1:19

the edge off a little bit where I'm like, I feels

1:21

more tangible to me that it has happened.

1:24

Yeah. But I'm still playing on couple of

1:26

LA events that are coming up. So

1:28

it's still sort of in my mind,

1:31

I guess. I'm still thinking about it

1:33

maybe more than you think you would after you finish

1:35

a big project. So I'm

1:37

I'm hoping to, like, as

1:39

the aforementioned lady Gaga, move into

1:41

my next phase soon

1:43

properly. Well, I

1:46

wanna talk about something kinda

1:48

related this week. Mhmm. We're relatively

1:50

early in the New Year. And so the thing

1:53

I wanna talk about is something that

1:55

people can do at any time, but

1:57

it seems to be especially popular when

1:59

the calendar changes or when you

2:02

finish a huge project like you just did.

2:04

That is undertake a

2:06

creative refresh. It's

2:09

a perfect time to declare email

2:11

bankruptcy. Scratch out

2:13

a bunch of tasks from your rolling to do

2:15

list, and just generally reassess

2:17

your priorities and projects. Are

2:20

you the kind of person who likes

2:22

to hit the restart button? I'm

2:24

the kind of person who wishes that they

2:26

were. Or at least I definitely try

2:29

to do things that'll make it feel like I'm making

2:31

a fresh start for instance. This year,

2:33

I'm trying to plan a little working getaway

2:35

with my partner so we can make some headwinds and

2:37

projects. But granted, some of those

2:39

projects are carrying over from last year,

2:41

so it's not a total refresh in

2:43

that sense. That is to say I'm very

2:45

eager to get more into the idea

2:48

of a refresh. Yeah. Well,

2:50

let's explore it. So The

2:52

topic this time around was inspired

2:54

by an issue if if that's the

2:56

appropriate noun of Mason

2:58

Curry's sub stack newsletter,

3:01

which is called subtle maneuvers.

3:03

And Mason is one of America's

3:05

foremost scholars of creative

3:08

habits. He has a couple of great books

3:10

one is called daily rituals and

3:12

one is called daily rituals women

3:15

at work. Mhmm. And he

3:17

also shares some great insights in his BI

3:19

Weekly NEWSLATURE. AND RECENTLY

3:22

HE SHARED A QUOTE FROM THE SCulptURE

3:24

CLICE Uldenburg WHO DIED

3:27

IN twenty twenty two AT the age of ninety

3:29

three, by the way. And oldenburg

3:32

used to undergo a regular process

3:34

that he called self priming. Our

3:37

producer Kevin Bendesk is going to now

3:39

read something that oldenburg wrote

3:42

somewhere in the mid

3:43

sixties. Last summer, I

3:45

went through two months what you might call

3:47

inspiring myself or myself

3:49

by reading and buying magazines

3:52

and walking the streets of New York, and

3:54

I even took off forty pounds. I

3:56

give up smoking. I did all kinds

3:58

of things to myself to get myself stimulated

4:00

or started in some direction.

4:03

And then I went through my notes, which

4:05

is always a good stimulation, the notes

4:07

from the past. There are many

4:09

pieces that I've been intending to make,

4:11

but I never get around to making.

4:13

And finally, I sat down and made a

4:15

list of about fifty things I'd like to

4:18

make. Just what came into

4:20

my mind has resulted in self framing.

4:22

Some of these things were actually made, but

4:24

there's such a gap between thinking of a

4:26

thing and actually making it.

4:28

There's so much labor involved and

4:30

carrying a thing from the original

4:32

idea to the finished object. And

4:35

a lot of these things were a lovely

4:37

idea. And I think I went around and told

4:39

people I was going to do it, And it

4:41

sounded great, but I wasn't able to

4:43

do it. And it sounded great, but I

4:45

wasn't able to make them happen in the short time

4:47

that I had. But

4:49

they may happen, say, next

4:51

year, two years from now, or three

4:53

years from now. There

4:55

were a lot of ideas in that short

4:58

slightly rambling paragraph. So

5:00

let's work through them bit by

5:02

bit. First, he talked

5:05

about reading and buying magazines

5:07

and walking the streets of New York as a way

5:09

to expose himself to

5:11

fresh ideas. I think those are

5:13

great ways to self stimulate, so

5:15

to speak, Are there things that you have

5:17

done? Are there any other ways you've

5:19

sort of blown away the cobwebs and

5:21

tried to take in new

5:22

content? Yeah, absolutely. I

5:25

think that's also a favorite method of

5:27

gathering inspiration for us here on this

5:29

show. It's good to get out and about and

5:31

there'll always be something that you get out of

5:33

it whether it's actually the inspiration

5:35

that you're looking for or just the opportunity

5:37

to clear your head and kind of organize your

5:39

thoughts. Yeah. As for other ways

5:41

to take in new things, I think it's good

5:43

to keep a price of what your friends are up

5:45

to, whether or not they have similar

5:47

interests. Maybe someone just

5:49

went to a new museum exhibit or is getting

5:51

really into a band you've never heard of.

5:53

There's no harm in investigating a little

5:55

bit. It really is shocking

5:57

how effective taking a walk

5:59

can be to clear your head. Though

6:01

it sounds like oldenburg spent two

6:03

solid months flanering, which

6:05

is something I can't quite imagine doing. You

6:07

know? Yeah. It's like, I wish. Yeah.

6:09

Right. Exactly. Let's just leave it at that

6:11

it would be wonderful, but not very practical.

6:14

I really love magazines, but the

6:16

market is very different in twenty twenty

6:19

two than it was in the sixties when

6:21

he wrote that I think for

6:23

me, the modern equivalent would be

6:25

buying hard copy newspapers and

6:27

flipping through them. I'm embarrassed

6:30

to say that I rarely I

6:32

won't say I can't remember when I last,

6:34

but it's a very rare occurrence that

6:36

I actually hold

6:38

actual newspapers in my

6:40

hands, but I really am aware

6:42

that when I do, I'm much more likely

6:45

to clip things out or make notes about

6:47

stories that I come across it. It feels

6:49

more idea generating to

6:51

have an actual newspaper. Mhmm. The

6:53

other thing that really

6:55

struck me was when oldenburg

6:58

talked about going through notes

7:00

that he'd made in the past. Are

7:02

you much of a notetaker or

7:05

journal? Do you think that

7:07

trawling through old notebooks would help

7:09

you generate new ideas? I

7:11

don't journal, but sometimes I do

7:13

think about it because some of the books that

7:15

I've really enjoyed, like Michael Palin's

7:17

journals from his time with Monty python to

7:19

his travel logs are just really, really

7:21

wonderful and probably really

7:23

nice to be able to look back on and say like, oh,

7:25

that's what I was doing at a given time in

7:27

the past. And I do think they'd be

7:29

good to look back on for inspiration. The

7:31

closest that I come probably is just I'm a I'm

7:33

a really bad hoarder. Like, I love to

7:35

keep tokens from things that I've done and I'm

7:37

very bad at throwing them away even if they're

7:39

not very useful to me. That

7:41

said, I generally feel like if something is

7:43

important enough to you for you

7:45

to remember it, then

7:48

you will remember it and drop on

7:50

it without having to write it down necessarily,

7:52

although that'll definitely make the task

7:54

easier. What about you?

7:56

You know, it's funny. Something you just said reminded

7:58

me of the slogan

8:01

or tagline or whatever you wanna say from

8:03

the notebook manufacturer's field

8:05

notes, their slogan is I'm not writing it

8:07

down to remember it later. I'm

8:09

writing it down to remember it.

8:11

No. It's all that good.

8:14

Yeah. It's it's it's good. There's something about

8:16

writing it down that actually pins it

8:18

somewhere in your brain. Yeah. I journal

8:20

a little bit in quite specific

8:22

situations when I just need to

8:24

get something out of my head because

8:26

something is bugging me -- Mhmm. -- and it just

8:28

feels like it's lodged right at the

8:30

front of my brain and it's kind of blocking

8:32

out other stuff. I find

8:34

that writing about it and just stop telling

8:36

myself, okay. That's it

8:38

now. Let it go. That can

8:40

actually achieve

8:42

that. And the other time is when I feel

8:44

really stuck, then

8:46

I'll just get an notebook out

8:48

and try to like,

8:50

journal, some ideas for how

8:52

I can get unstuck. But

8:55

even though I'm not a kind of assiduous

8:57

journaler, I -- Mhmm. -- I'm

8:59

a notetaker. And I think of those two things as

9:01

being different. You know, I keep

9:03

pretty good track of what I'm

9:05

doing, you know, in my work. What

9:07

problems I run up against, resources that I

9:09

find. And I I do like to loop

9:11

back on those notes. Mhmm. Though I

9:13

don't necessarily do so on a particular

9:16

schedule. And I I don't

9:18

think that all notes need to be

9:20

returned to. Again, sometimes

9:22

writing it down once is enough that,

9:24

like, that achieves what needs to be

9:26

achieved. But when I do go

9:28

back to old notes, it again, it

9:30

often is quite generative. So

9:32

listeners, if you have any old logbooks or

9:34

scratch pads or notebooks,

9:36

I guess, sitting on shelves or in

9:39

drawers, flip back through them

9:41

and See if that triggers

9:43

any new ideas. I think that might be

9:45

worth your time.

9:50

We are going to take a short break, but

9:52

we'll be back with more

9:54

ways to re prime one's

9:56

creative pump. It's

9:58

time to reboot your credit card

10:00

with Apple card. Apple card is

10:02

designed to help you pay less

10:04

interest Unlike other cards, it

10:06

estimates how much interest you'll owe

10:08

and suggests moves to help you pay off

10:10

your balance faster. Also,

10:12

you can keep more of your money.

10:15

Apply now in the wallet app on

10:17

iPhone and start using it right

10:19

away. Subject to credit approval,

10:21

interest estimates on the payment will

10:23

are illustrative only and may not

10:25

fully reflect actual interest

10:27

charges on your account. Estimates

10:29

are based on your posted account balance

10:32

at the time of the estimate and do

10:34

not include pending transactions or

10:36

any other purchase you may make before

10:38

the end of the billing period. It's

10:41

time to reboot your credit card

10:43

with Apple card Apple card is

10:45

designed to help you pay less

10:47

interest. Unlike other cards, it

10:49

estimates how much interest you'll

10:51

owe and suggests moves to help you pay off

10:53

your balance faster. Also,

10:56

you can keep more of your

10:58

money. Apply now in the

11:00

wallet app on iPhone and start

11:02

using it right away. Subject

11:04

to credit approval, interest estimates on

11:06

the payment wheel are illustrative only

11:08

and may not fully reflect actual

11:10

interest charges on your account. Estimates

11:12

are based on your posted account balance

11:15

at the time of the estimate and do

11:17

not include pending transactions or

11:19

any other purchases you may make

11:21

before the end of the billing period.

11:25

Hello

11:25

listeners, is there a particular creative

11:28

struggle you'd like to hear us tackle? Let

11:30

us know by emailing us at workingslate

11:32

dot com or even better you

11:34

can call us and leave a message

11:36

at 3049339675.

11:40

That's 304933W0RK.

11:45

And we're back. Another

11:49

thing that oldenburg mentioned was

11:51

making a list. After he

11:53

did his walking, and this

11:55

magazine flipping and he fixed

11:57

his bad habits. He wrote

11:59

down fifty things that he would

12:01

like to make. You know, he

12:03

was a sculptor and I am always

12:06

especially interested in the way that sculptors

12:09

develop their design ideas because it's very hard for

12:11

them to just you know, make one

12:13

quickly. It it just doesn't work that way

12:15

with three d objects. And I'm

12:17

not familiar with oldenburg sketches,

12:19

but I really like sketches

12:21

that Barbara hit with and Henry

12:23

Moore made when they were thinking

12:25

about upcoming projects. And

12:27

so definitely that kind

12:30

of writing things down,

12:32

coming up with ideas, processes

12:34

easier for writers. But I

12:36

wonder, to what extent you do that, you

12:38

know, when people are staff writers,

12:40

often part of the job is

12:42

to have to come up with certain number

12:44

of ideas for pieces every

12:46

week. Is that something that you've

12:49

continued to do since you went back to

12:51

freelancing? To be honest with you, I think I

12:53

actually kept those kinds of

12:55

lists more when I was a freelancer --

12:57

Yeah. -- because then I

12:59

also needed keep better track of what

13:01

I was writing for which publication --

13:03

Mhmm. -- what I had pitched to which

13:05

editors who I still had to invoice and

13:07

stuff like that. There are just a lot more

13:09

moving parts. Since going back to

13:11

basically being a freelancer, I haven't made

13:13

as many lists as I used to

13:15

previously, but that's partially a function of the

13:17

fact that the kind of freelancing

13:19

I'm doing is a little different, and I also

13:21

have a little more financial security than I

13:23

did back then. I don't have to be

13:25

juggling dozens of pieces at once.

13:28

But I guess to further answer your

13:30

question, there are kind of ups and downs

13:32

because as a freelancer, you

13:34

definitely have a lot more freedom

13:36

but you have to keep track of a lot more too.

13:39

Yeah. Yeah. And I I do think that it's

13:41

just a really good practice just to come

13:43

up with ideas. I have

13:45

friends who will

13:47

just make it a practice to come up with ten

13:49

ideas every day. Now, that's not

13:51

necessarily ideas for stories. It could be

13:53

ideas for, you know, animal

13:55

communication devices. You know?

13:57

But if you set yourself that goal of, I

13:59

will write down. It's not even I will have, but

14:01

I will write down ten ideas every

14:03

single day. Some of them are

14:05

crazy. Some of them are bonkers. But,

14:07

you know, you've written down ten ideas every day.

14:09

One of them, you know, once

14:11

every month might be brilliant. And

14:14

it's very practical. Then when

14:16

oldenburg was talking about his re priming

14:18

method, he mentioned

14:20

something that strikes me as

14:22

maybe less universally productive,

14:26

and that was telling his friends

14:28

what he was going to make.

14:31

So he went through this self priming

14:33

project. It generated ideas,

14:35

he wrote them down, and then he

14:37

told people that he was gonna make

14:39

those things. I think

14:41

in current self help speak, we'd say

14:43

that he was using his friends to keep

14:45

him accountable And

14:47

I guess the reason I said this strikes me as

14:49

a bit more questionable is that when I

14:51

asked myself if I could do this

14:54

or if I would do this,

14:56

I don't think I would. And I don't know why

14:58

exactly because maybe it's just, oh god,

15:00

that's a lot of pressure. I mean, you

15:02

know, when when you do your annual review

15:04

at work or you tell your

15:07

friends and colleagues you're gonna do something. That

15:09

really oops the commitment level.

15:11

And, you know, I don't necessarily

15:13

want to have a million commitments.

15:15

What do you think about

15:18

announcing future projects before

15:20

you've sold them or figured out

15:22

how are you gonna be able to make them? It's

15:25

a really good question. And I think

15:27

my answer comes

15:29

specifically from being in industries

15:31

where the announcement timing isn't

15:33

always up to you. Yeah.

15:35

Yeah. For instance, like, movie reviews, like,

15:37

usually, you'll have to deal with a studio

15:39

embargo of, like, this is when it gets to

15:41

go up. Or even, like, with interviews around those

15:43

movies. And then also in the movie and

15:45

TV industry, it's just better not to,

15:47

most of the time, shoot yourself in the

15:49

foot like until, like, some sort of deal has been made

15:51

and there's something to show for it. Yeah. So

15:53

with that in mind, I think my general take on

15:55

this is that I prefer not to announce a

15:57

future project until there's something

15:59

that I can show people or

16:01

in some cases until a contract has been

16:03

signed or your production company or

16:05

publisher has told you that you can talk about

16:07

it publicly. Which even then means

16:09

you've made the step of like having someone

16:11

backing you for it. So I guess it's sort

16:13

of similar to sending an editor a

16:15

pitch in that way, like, I've at least

16:17

thought a little about my idea a little

16:19

and have a nugget to present. That'll

16:21

make it easier for both them

16:23

to commit to making me accountable

16:25

and also for me to commit to being like,

16:27

this is this feels pretty real now and I

16:29

should work on it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

16:31

The last stage in oldenburg's

16:34

process was doing it,

16:36

you know, sitting down making

16:39

the things you said you would make. Mhmm. And

16:41

in in his case, that was sculpture

16:43

or installations. In our

16:45

case, books or profiles or scripts,

16:48

I'm I'm very aware

16:50

that those were the most garbled

16:52

sentences in that kind

16:54

of chunk of Copy. You

16:56

know? And I I say that because

16:58

I think it can be a lot

17:00

of fun to talk about

17:02

exercises and processes and

17:04

interventions and how you're gonna you know, what

17:06

you're gonna do, how you're you know, how you're gonna

17:08

tackle this problem. And in

17:10

fact, talking about those things can

17:12

be much more fun than you know,

17:14

just actually doing the thing

17:16

or to put it another way, people would rather

17:18

pay to get an MFA than to actually

17:20

write. Have I gone too

17:22

far? No. I think that's

17:24

a perfectly justified academia

17:26

burn. Mostly because I think for a lot of

17:28

us, the idea of making something is still daunting even

17:30

if you've been in your particular

17:32

field for years because that means

17:35

you have something that says like this

17:37

is how well I can

17:39

do or like this is what

17:42

I can show for all the time that I've already sunk into

17:44

this, which is really a scary

17:46

idea. But having something

17:48

terrible and being able to fix it is still

17:50

a step down the road than having

17:52

nothing at all. And it is ultimately what

17:54

you have to do in order to

17:56

have something to show for all of that

17:58

time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

18:03

We'll be back with our final thoughts

18:05

on the art of self priming

18:08

after

18:08

this. This

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I just want to remind you that if you are

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find us And if overcast is your

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app of choice, please hit the star to

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recommend the episode to others. I

19:50

found Kliceholdenburg's discussion of how

19:52

he got in the mood to do new work,

19:54

really interesting. But there are

19:56

lots of other places to get

19:58

ideas like that. Are

20:00

there places you like to go when

20:02

you are wanting to get a fresh

20:04

start when your boot was done? And

20:06

you knew it was time to move on to another

20:09

project? Did you do any rituals

20:11

or processes to kind of let

20:13

go of that big project

20:16

and find the next

20:18

big thing?

20:18

I was really lucky in that what

20:20

I've been working on since finishing the

20:22

act of writing the book was kind of

20:24

already in process. So in that sense, there

20:26

wasn't a really a period to be able to

20:28

get over it as it were and move on because I

20:30

was already swimming in that pool. Yeah.

20:33

But I like to mark the ends

20:35

of projects some way, whether for a smaller

20:37

thing, it's buying myself a little treat, like a

20:39

croissant or a milk tea,

20:41

or making it bigger deal and going out

20:43

to dinner or something like that because it

20:45

helps you commemorate the moment and it

20:47

also helps you feel like you're recharging

20:49

a little at the same time by being able

20:51

to do or have something fun for

20:53

yourself. Yeah. Do you have any

20:55

rituals? Not really.

20:57

I do like to go out to dinner and I

20:59

do like to buy myself treats but

21:01

I do those things all the time. Like,

21:03

I don't not go out to dinner if

21:05

I didn't meet my writing target,

21:08

you know. That's hard. That would

21:10

be too harsh, I think. Yeah.

21:12

Yeah. No. No Jennifer Eugene. You you

21:14

only got three thousand words.

21:16

You just I don't have thirty five hundred. Oh my god.

21:18

No. I do wanna put in

21:20

a word for podcasts

21:22

and YouTube videos as a way of

21:24

just kind of getting

21:26

new ideas or just kind

21:28

of finding new techniques. I

21:30

spend what is honestly a silly

21:32

amount of time listening to

21:35

productivity podcasts and watching YouTube

21:37

videos with personal knowledge

21:39

management tools or, you know,

21:41

watching people update their planners.

21:43

I'm not really sure can justify that, but I do spend a lot

21:45

of time doing that. And part of it

21:47

is that I find that calming

21:51

but I have also gotten

21:54

actionable ideas from those things,

21:56

you know. For example, I

21:58

was listening to an episode of the podcast

22:01

focused, where they talked about

22:03

mind maps in a pretty interesting way,

22:05

and then I noticed that a

22:07

guy on YouTube called Shenkwaang had a bunch of videos

22:09

about mind maps, which I

22:11

watched. And listening and

22:13

watching those things didn't cause

22:15

me to immediately start mind mapping.

22:18

Mhmm. And I'm not

22:20

a particularly visual thinker, so I

22:22

really didn't think it would be for me.

22:24

But now there was interest enough that I spent a few

22:26

hours, you know, checking

22:28

it out. But then a couple

22:30

of weeks ago, I was feeling

22:33

really stuck with a chapter of my book.

22:35

I just -- Mhmm. -- I could tell that the structure

22:37

was wrong, but I couldn't figure out how to

22:39

fix it. So I tried

22:41

mind mapping. And it really

22:43

helps. Oh. And, you know, it's really hard to make

22:45

the connection from, you know, thing

22:47

one, listening to a podcast to

22:50

thing two, you know,

22:52

solving a bit of being stuck.

22:54

But you know, if I hadn't listened to those

22:56

podcasts and watched those videos,

22:58

Well, I don't think I

23:00

would have come up with that. That's

23:03

really good to know. And I think ties into

23:05

kind of the bigger themes that we've been talking

23:07

about so far this episode. Where it's like

23:09

that inspiration or that help can really come

23:11

from anywhere. Like, even if you think you're

23:13

wasting your time watching those YouTube videos or those

23:16

other podcasts, like they did and can

23:18

ultimately help you. Yeah. I

23:20

think, you know, maybe because I feel like I

23:22

am the kind of person who can get

23:24

very stuck in a I

23:26

find them very soothing. I find them very

23:28

you know, they just make makes me happy to

23:30

to think, okay, I did this yesterday. I'll do

23:32

it again tomorrow. Yeah. And

23:35

it's really good to try new things and sometimes

23:37

some of us need

23:39

to call it a re priming process.

23:42

Yeah. But, yeah, just try something new. Do

23:44

it when you can. It's really good for you.

23:46

Alright.

23:49

That's all with time we have for this episode.

23:52

We thank you so much for listening.

23:54

And if you like the show, don't forget to

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subscribe wherever you get your

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podcasts. And if you have any questions you'd like us

24:00

to address on working overtime, we'd

24:02

love to hear from you. You can send us an email

24:04

at workingslate dot com

24:06

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producer, Kevin Bendis, and two are a

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series producer, Cameron

24:31

Drews. We'll be back on Sunday with a

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Working and in two weeks we'll have another

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working overtime. Until

24:39

then, get back to work.

25:02

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