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1:01

around for expert advice on

1:03

how to embrace AI with

1:05

confidence. Welcome

1:13

back to Working Overtime, the advice

1:15

forward best editing Oscar to working's

1:17

best director. I'm your host, Isaac

1:19

Butler. And I'm your other host,

1:21

June Thomas. June, this is

1:23

normally the time when I ask you how you

1:25

are doing, but we just recorded a regular episode

1:28

of working two hours ago. So have there been

1:30

any major life changes in the last two hours?

1:32

No, I went outside for a walk,

1:34

but I did not have a massive

1:37

artistic epiphany or any other kind of

1:39

epiphany. So no, that's too bad.

1:42

So what are we talking about today?

1:45

Well, over the holidays, we got some messages from our

1:47

listeners and I thought we'd sift through the old mailbag

1:49

and take a couple of them out for a spin.

1:52

What do you think? Oh, that sounds amazing.

1:54

Let's do it. The first comes

1:56

from a longtime listener, Mark, who has a

1:58

really good question based on one

2:00

of our recent episodes. Dear Working, I'm at

2:02

the stage of my career that you've described

2:05

a few times. I have

2:07

so much work to do related to

2:09

many creative projects. My wife

2:11

and I also manage a busy family

2:13

life and together this long list of

2:15

tasks is not doable by two people.

2:18

As you suggest, I've been trying to

2:20

hire help for a while and

2:23

it's turned out to be much harder than just finding

2:25

the money to do it. My question is,

2:28

once a person decides to hire help,

2:31

what then? We have some

2:33

funds to dedicate to this purpose, but

2:35

they're not unlimited and they need to

2:37

cover a lot of ground. In any

2:40

given moment, I need help with scheduling,

2:42

corresponding, running random errands,

2:44

etc. I don't

2:46

lack for candidates. I teach part-time and

2:49

work with early career people in my

2:51

field and have many people interested in

2:53

assisting me with projects, but the needs

2:55

for a variety of skills, knowledge,

2:58

availability, and how much I can

3:00

actually oversee them has resulted in

3:02

several short-term work arrangements that fizzle

3:05

out. What's your advice for

3:07

someone who has bought your pitch for why they

3:09

need help but can't stick the landing? How

3:12

can I choose the right person

3:14

to hire, engage them in an

3:16

ongoing way, and provide the appropriate

3:18

amount of direction so that over

3:20

time my projects become easier to

3:22

manage and my workload becomes

3:24

lighter? All right, that is

3:26

a lot, June. First of all, I just

3:28

want to say thanks to Mark for writing

3:30

in, and also, although I'm sure things feel

3:32

overwhelming, congratulations on getting to

3:35

the place where you need this

3:37

help, and even more importantly, recognizing

3:39

that you need help. I

3:41

struggle so much in asking for help, I

3:43

am really impressed by your even starting to

3:45

figure all of this out. So June, let

3:48

me ask you first, have you

3:50

ever been in a position like

3:52

Mark's? Not so much in

3:54

my creative life, or I guess I should say that

3:56

I may have been in that position, but I didn't

3:59

have the same. The of emotional intelligence that

4:01

Mark is. Displaying to realize that will

4:03

you know what I can get

4:05

myself. I have this feeling of

4:07

overwhelmed but I have been. Involved with

4:09

hiring in kind of work. Context. So

4:12

I guess I have some insight on

4:14

this topic. What about you? Yeah.

4:16

I mean I've had paid research assistants our

4:18

mutual friend re been stored as actually a

4:21

joining me for this my third book the

4:23

hell out of one as well and occasionally

4:25

of had someone do a few hours of

4:27

personal system stuff for me what and my

4:30

wife when things just really get to on

4:32

manageable but you definitely have a lot more

4:34

experience of hiring than I do. I

4:39

have some experience in the

4:41

hiring them for the ways

4:43

Mark is asking about, so

4:45

hopefully our Wonder Twin powers

4:47

will activate and take the

4:49

form of a gorilla and.buckets

4:51

And some good advice after

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out. Welcome to Dear Rt and

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advice column From has a place

5:43

where we tackles a tricky questions

5:45

at the intersection of Ai and

5:47

business. Let's meet our expert. On.

5:50

The and consummate technology futurists be

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current offer and I love to

5:55

help organizations measured current state of

5:57

readiness for an ai driven world.

6:00

I'm excited to dive into today's question

6:02

of. Gear

6:05

Rt. Are financing is top

6:07

notch but small and how can

6:09

a I support them? Signed: Financially

6:11

drained. Well. Financially drained

6:14

a lot is happening in finance

6:16

and Ai and the possibilities are

6:18

endless. First of all, the I

6:20

can help your finance analyzed massive

6:23

amounts of financial. The Death faster.

6:25

Than any human. Or a

6:27

team of people could do. Second,

6:29

it can help the performed functions

6:31

on deed us to algorithms, ziskin,

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the next different systems together. it's

6:36

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6:38

your finances. And last but not

6:40

least the I can help reduce

6:42

the time needed for. Data to

6:45

provide insights so that your

6:47

leaders can make bastard decisions.

6:49

Embrace a I confess as

6:52

sat.com A high to learn

6:54

more. Hey

6:58

listeners as you have any tips or

7:00

questions about the creative process get in

7:02

touch so your advice and while also

7:05

we'd love to hear your questions what

7:07

you need help with you can email

7:09

us at working at slate.com or even

7:11

best you can call us and leave

7:13

a message at three or four nine

7:15

three three nine six. Seven size

7:17

sets Three or four, Nine three

7:20

three till the you of art

7:22

say okay now that to working

7:25

overtime. And.

7:30

We're back! My first thought here is

7:32

part of the problem. the Marcus facing

7:34

is like many people and creative fields

7:36

years, a busy personal life and a

7:38

busy professional life. and sometimes those things

7:40

are totally merged and sometimes they just

7:42

look like they are birds that he

7:44

could just be difficult to separate. All

7:46

that. So my first advice is to

7:49

actually just sit down and list which

7:51

tasks have to do with work and

7:53

which ones have to do with home,

7:55

to draw a line down the middle

7:57

of a piece of paper, and to

7:59

start with. things. Some things are

8:02

going to overlap, right?

8:04

But to the extent that you can

8:06

avoid putting something in both columns, try

8:08

to avoid it. Is it 80% personal?

8:10

Great, put it in the personal

8:13

column, you know? And then once

8:15

you have that list, start

8:18

trying to figure out how much time

8:20

in an average week or two, or

8:22

even months since your schedule changes a

8:24

lot, is taken up by these tasks.

8:26

Just get as firm a picture possible

8:28

of what you really need. And

8:30

related to this, just to see what's really going

8:32

on, there's a tip I read about and I

8:34

started using it, it really works. Get a planner

8:37

and at the end of the day, try

8:40

to fill it out with what you

8:42

actually did hour to hour throughout the

8:44

day. This is not an appointment calendar,

8:46

this is actually a record keeping exercise

8:48

of your day-to-day work. And you will

8:50

actually get a really accurate

8:52

picture of what the problems are. You'll

8:54

look at it and you'll be like,

8:56

three hours a day answering email? What

8:58

the fuck is going on? I know

9:01

that that sounds like I'm actually giving

9:03

our listener more work, which I

9:05

guess I am, but it won't take that

9:07

much time and it will actually make solving

9:09

the rest of this much easier. I think, what do

9:11

you think, June? Is this good advice or am I

9:14

full of baloney? Baloney, never.

9:16

First, I have to say, Isaac, I

9:18

think you've hit on the most important

9:20

and in many ways the trickiest aspect

9:23

of any hiring conundrum, which is figuring

9:25

out what and how much help is

9:27

needed. And of course, how much you

9:29

can afford. I think, yes, it does

9:32

take time to do

9:34

that. It's an effort, but it

9:36

can really pay off down the line. And

9:38

I also think the steps you suggest

9:41

are absolutely essential. So, Mark, really take

9:43

this project seriously. And also, notice things

9:45

like, where's the pain? Where's the stuff

9:47

you just hate to do and therefore

9:50

spend too much or too little time doing?

9:53

What have you identified as essential and still

9:55

not gotten to? Is it really essential? It

9:57

is? Okay, put that high on the line.

10:00

list. Then you need to

10:02

figure out how many hours you can

10:04

afford to hire someone for in a given

10:06

period. Here, I want to call

10:08

it something you mentioned as a problem you've

10:10

encountered in the past. Make

10:12

sure you buy yourself enough

10:14

time to supervise their work. You

10:17

mentioned having had problems where your

10:19

inability to oversee the people you

10:21

hired meant you couldn't make productive

10:24

use of the time and skills

10:26

you were purchasing. You just

10:28

can't overlook or ignore that part of this

10:30

project. Make sure you know exactly what it

10:32

is you want this person to do for you

10:35

and then make time in your schedule to

10:37

make sure that it's getting done. Otherwise,

10:40

you're wasting your money and everyone's

10:42

time. This isn't something you'll need to

10:44

do forever, but it is really important

10:46

to dedicate time to it when you're

10:48

working with a new person or this

10:50

is a new task you're getting help with.

10:53

I also think you may need to

10:55

hire more than one person. The

10:58

tasks you outline are pretty disparate. Running

11:00

errands and performing housework don't require

11:03

the same skill set as correspondence

11:05

and submitting grant reports. You'll

11:07

probably get those tasks done more

11:09

efficiently by dividing them and I

11:12

promise I'm not just saying

11:14

that because I could absolutely

11:16

smash correspondence and grant reports

11:18

but would be absolutely useless

11:20

at errands and housekeeping. But

11:22

of course, you still have to

11:24

find the right person to take

11:26

care of the tasks you've identified and

11:29

there is no doubt that that is

11:31

a really tough job. Isaac, do

11:33

you have any advice for hiring

11:35

the right person? You

11:37

know, sometimes I have done a

11:39

great job at that and sometimes

11:41

I've done a really terrible job.

11:43

I think the good news is

11:46

that since Mark teaches part-time, he

11:48

not only has candidates but people

11:50

he can easily contact for reliable

11:52

references on those candidates. Also,

11:54

if it's possible or maybe he's already doing this,

11:56

I don't know, to make assisting him in his

11:58

creative work and official work. internship, so that

12:00

way the student would get credit as well

12:03

as pay. It's helping them build their resume

12:05

that probably will get greater buy-in

12:07

because you're not really, they're not doing

12:09

glamorous work, right? And so the buy-in

12:11

part of it can be really helpful.

12:13

But beyond that, I defer to you

12:15

because you have way more management

12:17

and hiring experience than I do. Well,

12:19

you're kind, Isaac, but I do want to note that

12:21

there is obviously a lot of difference between

12:24

hiring for a job that is a recognizable

12:26

step on a career ladder and one that

12:28

is basically assisting someone with their work on

12:30

a part-time basis. And I don't say that

12:32

to be harsh or to drag our lovely

12:34

listener. I just think it's important to recognize

12:37

that. You will keep a housekeeper because you

12:39

are paying them appropriately and treating them well.

12:41

You will not keep them because they're ambitious

12:43

and they're keen to break into the creative

12:45

field you happen to work in, which

12:48

might be so if you had a

12:50

sort of vocationally related job. Things

12:53

are different when we're talking about tests that

12:55

involve your creative work. They will hopefully be

12:57

picking up useful skills that will serve them

12:59

in their own creative work. That

13:02

said, I think ultimately

13:04

clarity is key, clarity about what the work

13:06

will be, what it will entail, and what

13:08

the person doing it will learn from it.

13:10

That not only helps the person you're going

13:12

to hire decide if it's a job they're

13:14

interested in and will want to keep doing

13:16

for more than a couple of weeks, you

13:18

will know what to ask them

13:21

when you're interviewing them. You will be

13:23

able to figure out if they're performing

13:25

the job adequately and you will be

13:27

able to assign appropriate tests. The more

13:30

general and amorphous a job description

13:32

is, the less likely you are

13:34

to find someone appropriate and ultimately

13:36

for either party to be happy.

13:39

Yes. Then of course there is the

13:41

third wrinkle that Mark discusses, which I

13:43

think is really the $6 million

13:46

question or whatever, training and

13:48

management. This is where I

13:50

really think keeping the personal and professional jobs

13:53

separate can help. The personal stuff, at least

13:55

in my experience, tends to be less skill

13:57

based if it's dropping off. packages,

14:00

getting your dry cleaning, and

14:03

you know going over the calendar or whatever

14:05

like that doesn't take a lot of training.

14:07

So it may be you actually just want

14:09

to start there because once the pressure is

14:11

off one area it will make managing all

14:13

the rest of the areas a lot easier,

14:16

you'll be less exhausted, and then you can

14:18

start working on on getting someone to do

14:20

the professional stuff. Either way what I have

14:22

found works best is to have a checklist

14:24

of things you need the person to do,

14:26

a deadline you need them done by,

14:28

and then orient them on the tasks.

14:31

You know if you're working with students you may need

14:33

to do the extra step and literally be like here

14:35

is how you keep track of what I'm telling you,

14:37

write down notes, and here is how you meet that

14:39

deadline, put the tasks in your calendar, you

14:41

know because you're kind of training them and how to

14:43

have a job, but there's only so much you can

14:45

do in terms of making sure people do their jobs.

14:47

At the end of the day they're gonna do it

14:49

or they're not, you're gonna keep working with them or

14:51

you won't, and that is why very clear deadlines help.

14:54

Look someone either gets the work done on time or

14:56

you need to move on, right? Absolutely,

14:59

you have hired this person because you

15:01

need help if they're not helping, the

15:03

whole project is pointless. I

15:06

guess I want to tell Mark, I can

15:08

tell from your email that you are feeling

15:10

overwhelmed, as Isaac said doing the work of

15:12

breaking in the tasks in the way we've

15:14

been describing it's work and it will take

15:17

some time, but I really

15:19

do think it will help address

15:21

that overwhelm that's surely getting in

15:23

the way of your creativity, probably

15:25

not helping your home life, so

15:28

just make the time and I

15:30

think it actually will allow you to get

15:32

the help you need and ultimately be happier.

15:35

Yes, let me just add on to that, yes

15:37

and it to say that's one of the reasons

15:39

why I was thinking you know whatever the low-hanging

15:42

fruit is, if you can get someone in to

15:44

do that quickly who doesn't need a lot of

15:46

training, you know that'll help you feel less overwhelmed

15:48

and then you're spending less mental

15:50

energy on feeling bad, which

15:52

frees up more mental energy to actually solve the

15:54

problem. The other thing that I would say is

15:57

that if you're in a place where you need

15:59

this help, that That probably means you're

16:01

doing well and you're doing well

16:03

in your field and you're someone

16:05

that people will know and know

16:08

that they want to work for. That

16:10

will actually be helpful. You're

16:12

not at the beginning of your career

16:14

needing a bunch of extra help. You've

16:16

arrived. You have a certain establishment and

16:18

reputation and you can use that to

16:20

help you find people. I

16:23

really hope that this has been helpful, Mark. Please

16:25

keep in touch and let us know how it's

16:27

going. For

16:30

the rest of you, we will be

16:32

back shortly with a listener email that

16:34

is, shall we say, displeased with something

16:36

I said in an earlier episode. This

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21:13

us. Welcome back.

21:16

In a recent working overtime episode,

21:18

June asked me about authors hiring

21:20

their own editors, copy editors, publicists,

21:22

things of that nature to help

21:25

them with getting their books done.

21:27

And I kind of went

21:30

a bit on an off the cuff rant,

21:32

shall we say. Let's roll the tape, Kevin.

21:34

I will admit I have a little bit

21:36

of mixed feelings about what you just said,

21:38

not about Harper Bliss hiring editors. Like if

21:41

you're self-publishing, protect yourself, get a copy editor,

21:43

for example. But I do think there's this

21:45

growing trend in the publishing industry of

21:47

people not really doing their jobs and

21:50

expecting authors to pay consultants or freelancers

21:52

or whatever to do them. If

21:54

you have an agent and you are a

21:56

nonfiction writer and your agent is not good

21:58

at giving you feedback, or they

22:00

are giving you service about, you

22:03

know, how much work they're doing

22:05

on the book proposal, fire them.

22:07

Like, hands down, find another agent.

22:09

It's completely absurd. I had

22:11

friends who read The Method and gave me notes

22:13

as it was written. They were incredibly important to

22:16

the making of that book. I

22:19

also though have a brilliant editor in Bennett

22:21

Hyman at Bloomsbury who was very involved, gave

22:23

great notes. Sometimes those notes were just us

22:25

having lunch together and talking about things. Sometimes

22:27

those notes were lying at us, but you

22:29

know, he was really important

22:31

to that process. I am very lucky.

22:33

I have had friends at other houses

22:35

who got essentially ghosted from their editors.

22:37

Basically had no notes at all and

22:40

had to figure it out on their

22:42

own. It's a serious abrogation of their

22:44

duty. And don't even get me started

22:47

on all the problems various authors I

22:49

know have had with their in-house publicists.

22:51

I love my publicist. I

22:53

also am friends with publicists for hire

22:55

that I know, but in a just

22:57

world there would not be publicists for

22:59

hire because the people at the publishing

23:01

house would again do their jobs. And

23:03

frankly, there would be enough of them

23:05

hired and on salary that they could

23:07

do their jobs, right? It's not necessarily,

23:10

in a lot of cases, people are doing the best

23:12

they can with the limited resources they have. Yeah. And

23:14

the publishing industry is a business is in all kinds

23:17

of trouble and I recognize that, but it still

23:19

just makes me crazy. So

23:21

one of our listeners wrote in to complain about

23:23

what I said, and I wanted to make sure

23:25

that their concerns, which are very valid, get a

23:27

hearing. So here we go. Dear working,

23:30

I was glad to see this week's topic

23:32

because I'm beyond burnt out and

23:34

was looking for ideas to start

23:37

2024 fresh. This

23:39

year has left no time for

23:41

creative work given the nonstop demands

23:43

of my full time and freelance

23:45

jobs in publishing. So

23:47

I had to laugh when I heard Isaac

23:49

Butler rant about publishing people, not

23:52

doing their jobs in a

23:54

way he's not wrong, but it

23:56

applies to everyone in publishing, including

23:58

the authors and it's. down to

24:00

pay and people. I work

24:02

for one of the big three and there's

24:04

not enough staff and definitely not enough salary

24:06

to allow people the time and focus to

24:09

do their work their job title indicates.

24:12

More than half of my department freelances

24:14

as a necessity, which isn't

24:16

at all unusual. The on sales

24:18

date rules everything and the pressure

24:20

to get volume out or hit

24:22

a certain pub date can mean

24:24

people working overtime to do quality

24:26

work on unbelievably tight

24:29

schedules, often filling in the gaps

24:31

left by the stages before them. Corporate

24:34

capitalism has made the scenario pretty much

24:36

the norm now, but that's down to

24:38

the business interests, not the people who

24:40

are working so hard to get the

24:43

best product out into the world. Usually

24:46

just because they love books and

24:48

writing and stories so very much.

24:51

So June, I guess I

24:53

should just say I totally get why

24:55

someone working for one of the big

24:57

publishers would hear what I said and

24:59

feel this way in response. It is

25:01

really hard out there for everyone. It's

25:04

only gotten more so since we've gone,

25:06

you know, back to in person work

25:08

and inflation and wages haven't kept up

25:10

and you know, things things are hard

25:12

out there. I really was

25:14

not intending to just pay lip service

25:16

to that difficulty at the end of

25:18

my little ad lib speech, but rather

25:20

to acknowledge that everyone is trying

25:23

to make miracles happen. Very

25:25

few resources at

25:27

the same time. I do

25:29

stand by the larger point of what I

25:31

said, if not the tone I used in

25:34

saying it. You asked me about a specific

25:36

thing that connected to a problem. A friend

25:38

of mine was having like that. I had

25:40

just been consulting with them about like the

25:42

day before I was pretty pissed. You know,

25:44

those two things kind of swirled together, but

25:47

the underlying point I stand

25:49

by advances are getting smaller and

25:51

smaller and more and more often

25:53

authors are being pressured into or

25:55

expected to spend What

25:57

little they make hiring other people.

26:00

to do jobs the traditionally were

26:02

handled fully and capably by their

26:04

publishers in the house. That's just

26:06

true, and I think we would

26:08

all agree, but whatever the reasons

26:10

for that, Are it's a shame.

26:12

authors of the ones whose labor provides

26:14

the material for which the entire industry

26:17

exists. the do not get steady salaries

26:19

and they do not get benefits. They

26:21

are in an extremely precarious position, and

26:24

that per carat. He only made worse

26:26

by not having the kind of emotional

26:28

security of knowing that that work will

26:30

be adequately shepherded and shaped and sixteen

26:33

pruned and everything else during the editing

26:35

and producing process. I've heard many horror

26:37

stories from authors about this sort of

26:39

thing, You know, turning in manuscripts. And

26:42

having them go into production with Zero at

26:44

us for example Which you know like if

26:46

you're an author and you're hearing this is

26:48

your you're feeling ill or receiving the first

26:50

past hates proofs and saying that the person

26:52

can make any changes other than proofreading you

26:55

know it's like it's very, very difficult stuff.

26:57

A And that was what was motivating me

26:59

to speak up about it. I think our

27:01

listener does a great job of explaining why

27:03

this is the case, and I think we

27:05

are both in agreement that the state of

27:07

affairs is bad for everyone. I wish I

27:10

knew how to fix it. I feel extremely

27:12

lucky to be a Bloomsbury where the it's

27:14

higher editing and production team has always been.

27:16

All in all my work They did incredible,

27:18

incredible stuff with the methods and they could

27:20

not have been more helpful every step of

27:22

the way. But I also know from talking

27:25

to my compatriots in the writing feel that

27:27

this is rarer than anyone would really like.

27:29

June do have anything to add. Oh mans,

27:31

Civil Rights on eyes at least once

27:33

a person in publishing that I hear

27:35

you just about Everyone except perhaps the

27:38

people at the very very Tough for

27:40

the Are chart. just have to the

27:42

time to do too many tasks and

27:44

it goes without saying unfortunately for to

27:46

little money it's here isn't so many

27:49

places the system is just broken but

27:51

isaac i agree with your fundamental point

27:53

here's the more things the author is

27:55

expected to pay for the harder it

27:57

is for people who don't have family

28:00

or any other access to

28:02

funds to access opportunities and get

28:04

their ideas out there and that

28:06

is antithetical to the very purpose

28:09

of publishing and it just sucks.

28:12

Yeah and I don't think anyone goes into

28:14

publishing wanting that. No authors don't

28:16

go into that you know people don't go into

28:18

editing being like I know what I'll do I

28:20

always not edit manuscripts to come across my desk

28:22

like no one feels good about this right it's

28:25

just like none of us know exactly how to

28:28

fix it you know I don't mean to

28:30

be hopeless about it I think there is

28:32

a fix we just don't really know what

28:34

it is. I do want to say thank

28:36

you so much to our letter writers both

28:38

of them Mark and Person in Publishing for

28:40

writing us with your questions and

28:42

concerns I really really appreciate

28:44

it. That's

28:47

all the time we have for this episode but

28:49

let me leave you with one last piece of

28:52

advice. I think you should

28:54

subscribe to Working Wherever You Get Your

28:56

Podcasts and if you have ideas for

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we will be back on Sunday with a

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brand new episode of Working and in two

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weeks we'll have another Working

29:46

Over Time until then get back

29:48

to work. You

30:19

still thinking job change in the new year? Yeah, I

30:21

need something that's in high demand and more stable in

30:23

this economy. IT? Yeah, cyber security,

30:26

maybe even AI. That's what I did. Really?

30:29

You're a career. You don't need any prior experience and you could

30:31

start your new career in a matter of months. A

30:34

lot of IT pros go to school there too to

30:36

level up. Sweet. Are classes online

30:38

or on campus? Both. Well, I'll check it

30:40

out. Thanks. Make this

30:42

your year. Take the free career evaluation

30:44

now at mycomputercareer.edu. Financial

30:47

aid is available for qualified students, including the GI Bill.

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