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now. Everyone,

1:27

it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to rethinking

1:29

my podcast on the science of what

1:31

makes us tick with the Ted Audio

1:34

Collective. I'm an organizational psychology and I'm

1:36

taking you inside the minds of fascinating

1:38

people to explore new thoughts and new

1:40

ways of thinking. My

1:45

guess today's Thera Edmonson who hosts

1:47

the podcast a Little Bit Coffee.

1:50

She was a key whistle blower

1:52

on the next to him called

1:54

a racketeering enterprise involving sex trafficking,

1:57

sexual abuse, forced labor, and fraud.

1:59

So. Sarah described her experiences with

2:01

Nexium in her memoir, Scard, and

2:03

in the docuseries, The Vow. I

2:06

was originally talking with Sarah for an

2:08

upcoming work-life episode on charisma, but

2:10

she had so much insight to offer that

2:12

I ended up rethinking that and decided to

2:15

feature our full conversation here instead. She

2:17

has a lot to teach us about questioning

2:19

leadership and how to tell the difference between

2:21

a strong culture and a cult. Before

2:26

we get started, I just have to say that I've just

2:28

finished a two-month break from all

2:30

podcasts, so I'm feeling a little rusty.

2:33

It was a very cathartic, a

2:36

very much-needed break of not

2:38

talking about cult stuff for two months, although

2:40

it does come up in conversation. Got

2:43

it. So you think you're rusty on

2:45

content as opposed to on conversation. That

2:47

makes more sense. If you

2:49

went on a two-month silent meditation retreat or something,

2:51

I'm like, yeah, talking could be a little bit

2:53

weird. Yeah, and I wouldn't do that

2:56

anyway. A, because I wouldn't be able to sit still,

2:58

and B, because I find that

3:00

stuff a little bit culty, so I'm adverse

3:02

to it. Oh,

3:04

shots fired. Yeah, sorry. They

3:07

can be. I have so many questions.

3:09

I bet. I

3:12

was in a cult for 12 years. I've

3:14

been out for six, and apparently I

3:16

love talking about it. Tell me

3:18

about the cult you were in. So I joined

3:21

in 2005 what I thought was a personal

3:23

and professional development program. I

3:26

had a community of like-minded

3:28

individuals. Ironically, a

3:30

lot of things that I've learned that you

3:32

talk about in your podcast are things that

3:34

we talked about in our cult. Leadership, communication,

3:37

productivity, overcoming limitations, all of

3:39

those things were great in

3:41

terms of what we did in the personal and

3:44

professional development side of things. There was a community

3:46

of people who were all striving to be

3:48

the best versions of ourselves and build

3:51

humanity and all these wonderful things. And

3:53

truly, it was an incredible community at

3:55

a time. But there was always so

3:58

Many red flags, so many. the things that

4:00

I didn't know what I was looking at

4:02

that's were indications of something else going on

4:04

that I couldn't see. Intel. It

4:07

was too late but I eventually woke up

4:09

as that of what we call it recognizing

4:11

what we were a part of was actually.

4:14

A cover for something much more

4:17

nefarious and that was incredibly challenging

4:19

and traumatizing. Hello my life. When

4:21

I realized that not only was

4:24

this community the opposite of what

4:26

I was. Telling people at was

4:28

and. Note: That I was

4:30

a recruiter for this group. I was going

4:32

around telling people that the leader who's now.

4:35

In jail for many different crime

4:37

for hundred and twenty years plus

4:39

five years probation. That he was

4:41

the most noble, humanitarian, ethical man

4:43

and the whole world. And damn.

4:46

Turns. Out that was just a cover for

4:48

him to. Sex.

4:51

Traffic, manipulate worse, and eventually

4:53

brand women with his initials,

4:55

which is actually how I

4:57

ended up waking up. So

4:59

that was. Six. Years

5:01

ago that has been on. I in

5:03

a group of others went to the

5:05

authorities that led to investigation, was led

5:07

to the trial and the imprisonment of

5:10

Keith Remarry and the last six years

5:12

have been about healing, trying to share

5:14

this knowledge that I've learned and trying

5:16

to help other people avoid the same

5:18

pitfalls. Obviously terribly sorry that

5:20

you went through that, but. Us

5:23

be half as many Many people grateful

5:25

that. You. Came out of it

5:27

ends his shirt so openly. Thanks.

5:29

Adam. One. of the things i've

5:31

since learned is that in any

5:33

groups can become coffee any organization

5:35

can become called the any family

5:37

religion government institution anything with a

5:39

hierarchy has the potential to have

5:41

an abuse of power which is

5:43

ultimately what the structure of a

5:45

call his submit that and said

5:47

top abusing power i think that

5:50

most people who are abusing power

5:52

aren't to be worried about it

5:54

it was a continue abusing pets

5:56

so it's good the question i

5:58

have to ask myself on time

6:00

even as a parent, like am I being manipulative?

6:02

Is this the best way to achieve results with

6:04

my kids? It's a good question to ask yourself.

6:07

When organizational culture researchers distinguish

6:09

between strong cultures and cults,

6:12

they usually say the big difference is tolerance

6:14

for dissent. Are you allowed to

6:17

challenge authority? Are you allowed to disagree with

6:19

decisions? Are you allowed to ask questions? Sounds

6:21

like that's a key distinction for you as well. Absolutely.

6:24

I actually recently did a TEDx talk

6:26

and I tried to give the five

6:28

most important red flags and then five

6:30

green flags and one of the green

6:32

flags was can you ask questions and

6:35

also can you leave? You can leave

6:38

the group without being shunned or

6:40

excommunicated. Almost every high control

6:42

group or cult has

6:45

that built-in mechanism.

6:48

Do you remember the first meeting you had with

6:50

Keith? My instinct was who

6:52

is this guy? It just looks like

6:55

a normal kind of nerdy volleyball playing.

6:57

He's not the typical charismatic leader that

6:59

I've since studied in other

7:01

cult leaders but I think what he did do

7:03

really well was he's really good

7:05

at building rapport with people and

7:08

when you were with him when he was

7:10

focused on you and especially because he'd been

7:12

built up by the what we

7:15

call the Greek chorus like all the people around him.

7:17

By the time I'd met him I'd met many other

7:19

people in the ranks of

7:21

Nexium all of whom put him

7:23

on this pedestal and talked about him as being

7:25

like the smartest man in the world and the

7:28

genius that created this tech which is the terms

7:31

that he used to describe the methodology that we

7:33

did in Nexium. The curriculum would be a more

7:35

normal way of describing it. It's not technology it's

7:37

just a curriculum so we'd learn

7:39

this curriculum and I had had a great respect for him

7:41

believing that he'd created this. I sense know that he

7:43

stole it from probably your podcast

7:45

and you know pretty round and a bunch of

7:47

other people. I hope not. But like

7:50

the things they're really the truly the

7:52

thing a lot so many of the

7:55

things that we learned were like directly

7:57

plagiarized from major thought

7:59

leaders including like Eckert Tolle

8:01

and Buddhism and just like the

8:03

tenets of how to be a good person. I

8:05

just didn't know. I was, you know,

8:08

27. I wasn't educated enough to

8:10

know that he'd stolen from like cognitive

8:12

behavioral therapy and neuro linguistic programming and

8:14

all these things. Anyways, I

8:16

respected him. I personally didn't find him charismatic. There

8:18

were a lot of other people around him. I

8:20

found way more charismatic that I was drawn into.

8:23

But a lot of people, you know, were drawn

8:25

into his little web. And I think the way

8:27

that he used charisma was more

8:29

about like connecting with you as a person and

8:31

figuring out what it is that you wanted.

8:33

And you just would feel kind of special in

8:36

the glow of his attention would

8:39

be the best way I would describe it. How did

8:41

you do that? I remember once towards the end,

8:43

he was asking me about when I was moving to

8:45

Albany because I lived in Vancouver, which

8:47

by the way, is what kept me at a distance

8:49

enough to be able to wake up when I did

8:52

and not double down and remain devoted when everybody else

8:54

did. He was holding my hand.

8:56

So one of the things is there's a physical

8:58

contact and it was eye gazing. So

9:01

he was looking very deeply into my eyes.

9:03

I felt in that moment, for the first

9:05

time comfortable with him. One of the

9:08

things that he would do is, and he

9:10

was very strategic about this, he never directly said, Hey,

9:12

do you want to come for a walk

9:14

with me or do this or that with me? He would

9:16

have people around him say, Oh, you're in town.

9:18

Are you going to reach out to Keith? So

9:21

then it would be coming from me to be

9:23

like, I'm in town. You want to go for a walk,

9:25

which is usually how he would have one on one time.

9:28

And I only did that a few times. And

9:30

I remember he couldn't

9:33

find his way in like he was trying to

9:35

like figure out what to relate with me on

9:37

and it just didn't work. It was uncomfortable. And

9:39

I thought that was my problem. But

9:42

rapport was something that was actually taught in

9:45

our curriculum. There was a module on how to

9:47

be in rapport, how to build rapport with somebody,

9:49

how to meet them in their model and connect

9:52

with them so that you could lead them somewhere

9:54

else. That was the whole point as a coach,

9:56

but some people just have it naturally. Like it's

9:58

not something you think about. and then we'd

10:00

have other coaches come in and they'd be like so

10:02

awkward and really turn off the

10:05

new students. So we'd have to

10:07

teach them how to do it. And so

10:09

some people have it, some people don't. And I think that's

10:11

an element of charisma, but it's just

10:14

a tool. It's like a knife in the

10:16

hand of a surgeon or the knife in the hand

10:18

of a murderer. It's who's wielding

10:20

it and what's their

10:22

goal. Charisma is not inherently good

10:24

or bad. No. It's

10:26

a tool that can be used for good or evil. Basically,

10:30

that is a line that I learned in

10:32

Nexium. It was when we talked about the

10:34

concept of manipulation. We talked about manipulating in

10:37

Nexium and I think this is something that

10:39

sociopaths love to do. They

10:41

love to put it all out there so you'd

10:43

never consider them to

10:45

do the thing that they're talking about. And

10:47

he was referring to manipulation, which is the same

10:50

thing. It's also a tool just like charisma. Like

10:52

you have to manipulate your kids to

10:54

get them to brush their teeth. You're

10:57

going, hey guys, we're going to listen to Elmo and

10:59

it's going to be so fun. Like brush, brushy, brush.

11:01

Do you know the brushing song for Elmo? Oh

11:03

yes. So good. Technically,

11:06

that's a manipulation. It's

11:08

not bad because you're getting them to brush your

11:10

teeth. The bad part

11:12

of it is when you get someone to be branded

11:14

because they think they're part of a sorority and it

11:16

turns out you're trying to put their initials on you

11:18

like they're cattle so you can own them for the

11:20

rest of your life. It's like the flip

11:23

side. I have to make light of it.

11:25

Otherwise it's just too dark and awful. So

11:28

we can joke. So see you

11:30

now. I appreciate that. The

11:32

colleague, Jochen Mengiz, who did some research

11:34

showing that basically when a

11:36

leader is up in front of a

11:39

crowd or an audience and is exuding

11:41

charisma, that people often become

11:43

awestruck and they end up

11:45

sort of turning off their cognitive

11:48

processing skills. They might even be

11:50

more muted in the emotions they express. And

11:52

he described this as, well, they're an awe. He

11:55

labeled it the awestruck effect. I read the research

11:57

and thought, sounds more like the

11:59

dumbstruck effect. You're under a spell

12:01

that literally interferes with your ability

12:03

to reason. And

12:06

I wonder if that describes some of what happened.

12:09

I think so. It's the same thing that happens

12:11

in like a concert, a music concert, or even

12:13

I've seen it in like a Tony Robbins in

12:15

The Break where they're playing the

12:17

rah-rah music. There's a group

12:20

adrenaline cortisol.

12:22

People have like an incredible euphoric

12:24

experience. And then they link that

12:27

to the leader. They

12:29

have an overwhelming

12:31

body sensation and then they think they got

12:33

that from the guru or whoever is standing

12:35

in front of the stage. They start to

12:37

feel dependency and they start to feel enthralled.

12:40

Yes. I

12:42

think what you're describing is

12:45

what Emil Durkheim, the founding father

12:47

of sociology, called collective effervescence. Oh,

12:49

yes. Where a group aligns around

12:51

a purpose and they have a

12:53

shared energy. What

12:55

you're highlighting is the nefarious side of

12:57

this is feeling grateful to you and

12:59

dependent on the leader for creating that

13:01

transcendent experience. I found it even

13:03

before I was in Nextium in my

13:06

brief rave days. I was a raver

13:08

for like all of 10 minutes and

13:10

the music and the drugs

13:12

and the euphoria of that collective

13:14

experience. We're humans and we're

13:17

tribal and we're looking for belonging. We're

13:19

trying to find our place and some people have

13:21

that more than others. I'm certainly guilty of that.

13:23

I was a camp counselor and I started an

13:25

acting support group. I love groups. I love to

13:28

be a part of things and we're looking for

13:30

that. Then we're having

13:32

this collective effervescent experience

13:35

and then attributing it to the person who's in the front of

13:37

the stage. Then we have

13:39

somebody like Keith who's like, oh, I'm not a

13:41

guru. I'm just a guy and like, no, no,

13:43

this sort of like faux humble thing, which also

13:45

made him more appealing because his

13:48

whole thing was that we shouldn't be

13:50

dependent on anything in the external world

13:52

to be happy, which is

13:54

also this basic Buddhist

13:56

tenant that happiness comes from

13:58

within. We're like, oh, I'm not a guru. right, of

14:00

course, we don't want to have any dependencies except

14:02

on the rest of our lives. You're

14:05

surfacing a couple other things that show

14:07

up in the evidence on charismatic leadership.

14:10

When you talk about this attribution that people

14:12

make and the credit that they gave to

14:14

Keith or to other leaders for

14:16

creating that experience, we see

14:19

that the same is actually true of charisma.

14:21

There's a classic paper on the romance of

14:23

leadership, which basically argued that charisma

14:25

is not always a cause of

14:28

group success. It's often a consequence.

14:30

So you come into a group,

14:32

you perceive them as magical or

14:35

excellent or successful in some way, and

14:37

then you assume, well, the leader must

14:39

be charismatic. Right. Yeah. And

14:41

it sounds like that's a version of what

14:43

happened where you came in and people were

14:46

sort of painting the picture of like, wow,

14:48

you know, Keith built all this stuff that

14:50

made Nexium great, therefore, he must be great.

14:53

Yes. And then you have a bunch of

14:55

people that you trust. Like before I even

14:57

met Keith, I was brought in by Mark

14:59

Vicente, who had made this film called What

15:01

the Bleep Do We Know? Right. It was

15:03

just really big in the early 2000s. It

15:05

was like spirituality meets quantum

15:07

physics meets human

15:10

potential in a film. And I met him and I

15:12

was like, I was, you know, I was an actress

15:14

and I wanted to do more meaningful work. And here's

15:16

this film that did that. And he's like,

15:19

Oh, if you like my film, then you may like this program I

15:21

just did, the seminar that I

15:23

just did. And it helps you to actually

15:25

do the things I talk about in my

15:27

film. So that was like, it hit all

15:29

my values. I wanted to make conscious shifting

15:32

media. I wanted to be aligned

15:34

with people who were doing more meaningful work. I

15:36

was drawn into him. If I had met Keith

15:38

Ranieri at like on the street, I don't think

15:41

I would have batted an eye. And he's like,

15:43

you can take my program for $2,000. I'd be

15:45

like, go fuck yourself. You're an idiot. That was

15:47

the selling point. It was somebody else who I

15:49

trusted. Your story about being drawn

15:51

to wanting to join a group, having

15:54

a thirst for belonging really

15:56

tracks closely with the research on two different

15:58

kinds of charismatic relationships. They're

16:01

usually called personalized and socialized. And

16:04

the personalized charismatic relationships are

16:06

basically about being attached

16:09

to the leader to fill a gap in

16:11

your own identity. So you see it among

16:13

people who lack clarity about who am I,

16:15

what are my values, and then

16:17

they sort of identify with the leader and

16:20

in many cases are vulnerable

16:22

to blind faith and unquestioning

16:24

obedience to provide that sense

16:26

of this is where I fit in, this is where

16:28

I belong, that's who I am. And

16:31

then the more socialized charismatic relationships are not

16:33

about the leader, they're about the mission. I'm

16:36

attached to this group for what it's

16:38

accomplishing, for what it stands for. I

16:41

think your story complicates this distinction a little

16:44

bit because it sounds like there

16:46

were a lot of people who were drawn in

16:48

for personalized reasons. You were sort of

16:50

brought in for more socialized reasons and that's part

16:52

of what kept you at a distance. And

16:55

I wondered what your reactions were to that. If

16:57

you were to put me in one or the other, I'd say

16:59

it's the belonging one, although the mission part was definitely

17:01

a highlight for me and whereas my husband was like

17:03

mission only, he really didn't care about the community or

17:05

belonging and he's definitely more of like a lone wolf

17:08

in that way. There's another component

17:10

called, and just give me a second.

17:12

Oh, I remember now, situational

17:15

vulnerability. So you have

17:17

another aspect which is that depending

17:20

on what's happening in the person's life, which

17:22

is often a crossroads, it's like more like

17:24

what's happening currently for them. For me, I

17:26

was like, am I going

17:28

to be an actor? Am I not going to be an actor? Like

17:30

what's my mission? What's my purpose? I know I have

17:32

a purpose and I don't know what it is. And

17:34

when then I met Mark and I did

17:36

the five, you're like, oh, this is my purpose. I meant

17:38

to be a coach. I meant to help people, to help

17:41

bring this mission to the world. And

17:44

I had the belonging and I had

17:46

a sense of community and I could make a living.

17:48

It was like, this is amazing. I

17:50

felt so lucky. I felt like I was

17:53

a part of the bestest, secretest, luckiest club

17:55

in the world at the time. But

17:59

Most people hit. Something. Like that

18:01

in their lives have a divorce or they're like out of

18:03

school, the that move into a nice city or they

18:05

get sick and they're at a particular a low point isn't

18:07

a silly mean. They're. Like a

18:09

loser other week or they have low

18:11

self esteem as a situational vulnerability and it's

18:13

not always like hey, take this seminar and

18:16

get branded with the leaders initials. It's come

18:18

to a dinner party. Check.

18:20

Out our book club. Have you ever

18:22

campaign for this political party to a cold

18:24

plunging? No, no and know if. I

18:28

unfortunately. Love called pledging and I'm worried

18:30

I'm gonna get into another cops. Most

18:32

people think. They're. Not susceptible

18:34

which makes them I think more susceptible. It's better

18:36

to understand where you're levels of sept ability are

18:39

so that you can spot the red flags and

18:41

know what you're looking at with via have education

18:43

I have now I wouldn't have even signed up

18:45

let alone gone my first five day because I

18:47

don't like your pressuring me you're using scarcity mentality

18:50

and preying on my soul mode to make me

18:52

feel like I might miss a strain that seeking

18:54

off. Sir Yes sir, you don't have objections

18:56

that causes. He built my mom's

18:58

a therapist, my dad's of psychotherapy, psychotherapist,

19:00

former school counsellor with married to a

19:02

psychologist or it's partners a psychologist So

19:04

I have a lot of influence in

19:06

my life. and also what I learned

19:09

a next to him was basically plagiarize

19:11

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paycom.com/soundrise. Okay,

20:52

so I want to turn the lens a

20:55

little bit and ask you about your

20:57

role as a recruiter in Nexium. I

20:59

think it's probably safe to assume

21:02

that you use charisma to draw people in.

21:04

Tell me how. I mean, in retrospect,

21:07

yes. I was never like

21:10

thinking about that when I did it. I was

21:12

never like, let me turn on my charisma so

21:14

I can recruit you. But I'm outgoing. I like

21:16

to connect with people. I've

21:18

heard that I make people feel comfortable. I

21:21

like people. I'm a kind person. So

21:24

that package together made me a good recruiter

21:26

because I also really believed in what we

21:28

were doing. I'm a gatherer. It's what I

21:31

do when I was meeting with somebody and

21:33

I either did it in a group session

21:35

like I was doing in front of 30

21:37

people that other people would bring to an

21:40

information night, or I was sitting with you.

21:42

Like if somebody introduced me to you, Adam, I'd

21:44

be like, Adam, tell me

21:46

about yourself. How can I help?

21:48

What's going on for you? I would just

21:50

try to elicit what you wanted, what

21:53

was stopping you from getting what you wanted,

21:55

and showing you how the five day or

21:57

the tools would help you get that. I'd.

22:00

Have to do that in a way that made

22:03

you feel comfortable, not judged. By.

22:05

His er tie him up vulnerable

22:07

stuff and I think of my

22:09

charisma either drew people in. And

22:11

made them feel comfortable or didn't. For whatever reason,

22:13

I didn't recruit everybody that I tried to, but

22:15

I did have a very high success rate. Is.

22:18

It streams now promoting your podcasts and

22:20

some here com drink my Kool aid

22:22

about how should never drink any ones

22:24

who is. "It's been

22:27

a very, very challenging road, actually,

22:29

especially the beginning when we're doing

22:31

like sponsorships and like host read"

22:35

And I'm like him. Sarah and I

22:37

love this product and usually like of

22:39

like sales is just so. Town

22:42

Square see product.

22:47

We go to this incredible resort in Canada.

22:49

Than one cabin was available and I was

22:52

telling people about trying to sell the cabins.

22:54

I can have more friends there and somebody

22:56

said. I can afford it and my.

22:59

Instinct would answer like my recruiting sales technique which

23:01

is to isolate and overcome local. If you had

23:03

the money would you still wanna go And then

23:05

the goal is to likes to help them find

23:07

the money and as soon as I start to

23:10

do that I can't I can't do that like

23:12

I don't want to try to convince anybody to

23:14

do anything that they don't want to do ever

23:16

again. A because us that

23:18

I was basically trying to do and then

23:21

be I just had to drop it or

23:23

as it to stop rate that about okay

23:25

cool no problem you know to mean it

23:27

was like this just as a t feeling

23:30

of bringing people on to anywhere so yeah

23:32

with with the podcasts and very like he

23:34

were on pitcher on if you want to

23:36

com great if you don't. Know

23:38

problems I can, I do a hard sell

23:40

I can't Post is a very challenging position

23:43

to be and actually and almost didn't do

23:45

it at all for that reason. I'm

23:47

glad you did. Think that I love it

23:49

titled a little because he's such a great

23:52

perks. sakes it's fun to there's there's

23:54

lots of things that aren't forecasts but

23:56

they're definitely little bit called the and

23:58

i can now pinpoints what's specifically on

24:00

that checklist we talked about earlier, makes it culty

24:02

and then people can just decide, is

24:05

it healthy? Do I want to continue? So

24:08

I'm curious about whether

24:10

you've seen harmful

24:13

charisma outside of Nexium. Oh yeah.

24:16

Did you ever have a boss, for

24:18

example, who exercised it? Yeah, well

24:20

you know what's crazy is that I was part of

24:22

an acting group also in the early 2000s that

24:25

I left just

24:27

before Nexium because I found

24:29

it culty. I had

24:31

experiences with people before, I've had experiences

24:34

with people after. I can

24:36

spot it way more clearly now, but

24:39

I still am a trusting person

24:41

and I'm constantly kind

24:43

of like trying to check in on myself, it's like,

24:46

is this my gut saying, you know,

24:48

run for the hills because it has a trigger for

24:50

me or is there truth in it? Take me back

24:52

to your acting group. What was it

24:54

that made this charismatic teacher a terror?

24:57

Oh, she is a nightmare. I mean, she

25:00

really, she created this atmosphere where you'd like

25:02

walk up these stairs and look at this

25:04

old brick in this little black room, a

25:06

black box and light was on you. And

25:09

you're like going there to grow, you're

25:11

going there to be vulnerable and open up. And if

25:13

somebody is teaching you who has good intentions and wants

25:15

to lead you to the next level, you have to

25:18

do that as an actor. You have to like open

25:20

up that Pandora's box and dig in, it's like therapy,

25:23

right? You have to be willing to

25:25

be open. So there's something

25:27

sort of exhilarating about that. And then

25:29

she would make you do things

25:31

that like went way out of your comfort zone.

25:33

It's just really crossing people's boundaries. And if

25:35

you weren't willing to do it, you

25:38

weren't doing the work, you were in

25:40

resistance. And so there was a

25:42

level of using her

25:45

authority to get people to

25:47

be incredibly

25:49

uncomfortable to the point where they would

25:51

like break down emotionally. And if they

25:53

didn't do that, then they weren't like

25:55

real actors. And she

25:57

would say something to me like, you know, I

25:59

see your, angry or something like that. I don't feel

26:01

like I'm angry. She'd be like, everybody,

26:03

do you see the Sarah's? She turned

26:06

the group against you. You

26:08

kind of would have to just admit that you were

26:10

angry to get through the exercise. Either

26:13

that or she's really pissing you off by accusing you

26:15

of an approach and you're not even feeling it. Right.

26:17

Well, now I'm angry. Yeah. And

26:19

you know what? Ironically, I had the same

26:21

kind of pattern in Nexium where it's like, and now

26:23

I understand about gaslighting and all these different terms that

26:26

I didn't know at the time, but she

26:28

used people to be her minions, to

26:31

do things for her. And you were in the

26:33

group and then became not about acting, but like,

26:35

am I in her favor or not in her

26:37

favor? And she didn't abuse

26:39

everybody. A lot of people got great treatment.

26:41

And I do think she was a

26:43

skilled acting teacher in terms of getting people to the next

26:46

level and was able to coach people. But then

26:48

other people, she was like abused severely and they

26:50

thought that there was something wrong with them because

26:52

these people can't be total dicks to everybody. Because then if

26:55

you walk in and see everybody treated poorly, you're like,

26:57

well, I'm not going to be a part of this.

26:59

You have to see some people being

27:01

respected and being taught properly. And so that

27:04

when it comes to you and you get

27:06

shit, you're like, oh man, I really screwed

27:08

up. There's something wrong with me.

27:10

I got to work on that. Right. There

27:13

has to be a balance. What is it that concerns you about charismatic leaders?

27:16

It's a currency that it's the value is

27:18

disproportionate to what it is. I do think

27:20

that unfortunately to be a leader or thought

27:23

leader or to be in

27:25

the public space and to inspire and move

27:28

people, you have to have a certain amount

27:30

of it. Otherwise people

27:32

don't tune in. I think

27:34

a lot of charismatic leaders, I guess

27:38

there's some telltale signs for me. One

27:40

is that they're preaching instead of teaching. Another

27:44

is that they're promoting themselves instead of

27:46

their ideas. Yes. One of the

27:48

things I always tell people is, is

27:51

Google them. If you see a leader or

27:53

a group and you're not sure, if you

27:55

type in like is blank a cult and

27:58

anything negative comes up, if

28:01

there's a lawsuit or there's allegations or

28:03

bad press, where there's smoke, there's

28:05

usually fire. And if you

28:07

ask that person about that

28:09

and they say, oh, that's just a jilted

28:12

ex-lover, she's crazy, red

28:14

flag. How they

28:17

treat their opponents is

28:19

a real telltale sign for me. And also

28:21

like, is it consistent? How

28:23

are they with the people around them? How are

28:25

they with the waitstaff at a restaurant? Are

28:28

they totally kind and with you

28:30

and present? And then they're like, hey, I need

28:32

some water, you know, and they can turn it

28:34

off and they're being flippant. I don't like that.

28:37

Kind people, good people are consistent. They

28:39

don't use it as a tool. What were they

28:42

doing before this thing? What's

28:44

their background? What's their training? It's okay to

28:46

obviously make money off a product. That's not

28:48

a problem. Did

28:50

they create it? Are there people involved? Where's the money

28:52

going? Ask the questions. And if you

28:54

ask the questions and you get shot down with any

28:57

kind of gaslighting or made to feel ashamed,

29:00

that's a major problem. Well,

29:02

thank you. Sarah, this has been incredibly

29:04

insightful. If you decide you want to go

29:06

down the PhD route, let me know.

29:08

I think you could contribute a lot to

29:10

the field, but you're already adding a lot

29:13

of value in the public discourse regardless. I

29:15

appreciate that. It may not be necessary, but

29:17

one day. Maybe one day. Yeah, when maybe the

29:19

kids are a little bit older. What

29:25

Sarah drove home for me is that we need

29:27

to think more carefully about the attachments we form.

29:30

Our highest loyalty belongs to principles,

29:32

not to people or places. The

29:35

most important form of integrity is

29:38

fidelity to our value. Rethinking

29:43

is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This show

29:46

is part of the TED Audio Collective, and

29:48

this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic

29:50

Standard. Our producers are Hannah

29:52

Kingsley Ma and Asia Simpson. Our editor

29:55

is Alejandro Salazar. Our fact checker is

29:57

Paul Durbin. Original music by Hans-Gel Stu

29:59

and and Alison Leighton Brown. Our

30:02

team includes Elijah Smith, Jacob

30:04

Winnick, Tamiah Adams, Michelle Quinn,

30:06

Banh Banh Chang, Julia Dickerson,

30:08

and Whitney Pennington-Rodgers. You

30:16

are gonna be shit, oh, can I swear on this?

30:18

You're gonna be trash-tacked? Definitely. Okay.

30:20

Great, I have very bad potty mouth

30:23

at something I'm working on, as we

30:25

speak. Still striving to be the

30:27

best version of myself. Okay.

31:00

That's better, help.com.

31:30

Brx.