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of AI. Uncover the Unseen

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Upside, available now. Hey

1:52

everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking,

1:54

my podcast on the science of what makes

1:56

us tick. I'm an organizational

1:59

psychologist and I'm making you inside the minds

2:01

of fascinating people to explore new thoughts

2:03

and new ways of thinking. My

2:07

guest today is Robin Arson. She's

2:09

the beloved head instructor at Peloton and

2:12

an endurance athlete. She's run

2:14

five marathons in five days and a 100-mile

2:16

ultra-marathon. Robin's

2:19

also the author of Shut Up and

2:21

Run, a former lawyer, a new contributor

2:23

to Good Morning America, and a survivor

2:25

of a near-death experience. I

2:28

have multiple friends who are devoted members of

2:30

Robin's Peloton Wolfpack, and they

2:32

tell me that sometimes she's the only reason they

2:34

make it through and through a workout. So

2:37

I was excited to talk with

2:39

her about finding motivation, maintaining energy,

2:41

and rethinking technology. Robin,

2:52

anything you want to make sure we do or don't

2:54

talk about? Oh, I'm open. Let's

2:57

just rock. I want to know,

2:59

how do you go from lawyer to

3:02

chief fitness instructor, head

3:04

trainer? This is a massive career

3:06

pivot. How did that happen, Robin? I

3:08

mean, I think like most change, it

3:10

was slow and iterative. It

3:13

was not a very dramatic, singular moment. I

3:16

ran myself out of a law career. I was

3:18

a corporate litigator in New York City, and I

3:21

fell in love with running. So I started to really

3:23

think about how I would be able to monetize this

3:25

new passion, knowing that I would never be

3:27

a professional athlete in a traditional

3:29

sense. So yeah, that's

3:31

kind of how that pivot came to be.

3:34

It's so surprising that running was a late discovery

3:36

for you, given how central it is to your

3:38

life now. Did you

3:40

not run at all as a kid?

3:42

Not at all. I had anxiety in

3:44

PE, in gym class. The

3:47

whole idea of being picked

3:49

last for kickball, or I used

3:51

to get made fun of for the way

3:53

I ran. I

3:55

am the daughter of a Cuban

3:57

refugee and a voriqua from the Bronx.

4:00

Franks and Sports didn't happen like maybe on

4:02

your I will assume but it was an

4:04

organized T ball from when you're three and

4:06

soccer practice at six so I felt like

4:08

I was late to the game by the

4:11

time I was even exposed to this doesn't

4:13

school and it was really intimidating to think

4:15

some of kids had been doing it are

4:17

ready for six eight, ten years So I

4:20

just told myself I was okay with that

4:22

until I started to get an appetite for

4:24

running and I realized oh my gosh, like

4:26

I can become my own source of confidence

4:28

through movement and I. Never looked back. How

4:31

did that happen? Or. Really happen in this

4:33

way through the trauma. Actually, I was

4:35

held at gunpoint when I was in

4:37

college and I really used movement to

4:39

help heal from that. I. Was

4:41

in law school the time of the one

4:43

else and I had a pair of death

4:45

see like heads or something in my closet

4:47

and one day I decided to not. Drive.

4:50

To campus the mile and a quarter to campus

4:52

and I walked and then the day after that

4:54

I was like what if I just job this

4:56

one block and that's really how it started. It

4:58

was truly and I had like law books and

5:00

my bag or is it was messy Probably did

5:03

not. Look pretty by former. probably horrendous,

5:05

but that was really how it started.

5:07

Very nice beginnings. Very, very very very

5:09

humble beginnings. Wow. And looking

5:11

back where their early signs that you

5:13

missed bird breeder somebody who's always bouncing

5:15

off the walls with energy. Internal

5:17

energy? Yes, But I'm incredibly focus

5:20

when I'm in deep work. I

5:22

can sit at my computer, at

5:24

my journal, at my desk for

5:27

hours on end, right? So I

5:29

think that focus allowed me send.

5:31

To. Be okay actually done to not bounce

5:34

off the walls but now that I

5:36

have this in embodied Sets Sets literally

5:38

embodied practice of expression actually look at

5:40

movement as from a very creative same

5:42

points I a paint in sweat like

5:44

that for me as or the streets

5:46

but it never called to me until

5:49

dulcet. You. Get held at gunpoint.

5:51

And. That becomes a catalyst to start

5:53

running. And then one day you're

5:56

running five marathons and five days.

5:58

You're. Running a hundred mile. Ultra Marathon.

6:01

Still, doesn't that seem a little bit

6:03

less? Ah yes! I mean I like

6:06

extremes. I think every endurance athlete his

6:08

listening as I I get it. you

6:10

know I mean there's just something and

6:12

you're a runner to the you probably

6:14

use to get it is this is

6:16

this class since it is constantly asked

6:18

every time you lace up. every time

6:20

you sign up for a race is

6:22

just as little quiet com that it's

6:25

like. What? What

6:27

else can you do And I just continued

6:29

ask myself that question especially when I first

6:31

discovered running stuff like oh my gosh sake,

6:33

I can move my body from here to

6:36

there until like a total bad ass like

6:38

I'm in charge of the story than I'm

6:40

selling and. You. Never regret.

6:43

A. Run or a workout. So

6:45

that became. Really like rocket

6:48

fuel for my hustle in every

6:50

area. Never. Never. You've

6:52

never had a workout you regretted know? Wow.

6:55

That's impressive. Know. How.

6:58

Let's. Unpack this regret. what aspect of it?

7:00

if he wants you hard? If you were

7:02

wrong shoes or yes. There pieces of at

7:04

the you're like okay I learned x y

7:06

z but the experience as a whole. absolutely

7:08

not because I put it in my back

7:10

pocket and I'm like. Or a cool like

7:12

of that. More fuel for tomorrow. I.

7:15

Was thinking of times when I force myself to work out

7:17

when I was sick and push myself. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, but

7:19

then you learn and then now you have more

7:21

information, more data points and know you love a

7:24

data points. From

7:26

way around here it's really mad some

7:28

a snake. The next best decision I

7:30

believe. One of the biggest challenges particularly

7:32

and endurance is feeling like you're stuck.

7:35

Tell me about when you get stuck

7:37

and what you do about. Ah, I'm

7:39

okay so one of my favorite mom

7:41

says is a plateau as a launching

7:43

pad. Motivation I think is

7:45

the biggest lie we've been ever told

7:48

you ever been told is it doesn't

7:50

matter when you speak, whether you feel

7:52

like it's like we are not. Promise

7:55

this song and dance of being. Distracted.

7:58

And entertained all day every day like. The.

8:01

Great however you inform greatness

8:03

you in leadership. In Business and

8:05

Sports. They did a

8:07

ton of boring south, thousands of hours

8:09

of boring things that nobody ever saw

8:11

to get to where they are. Success

8:14

is tedious. A lot of times we

8:16

just don't talk about it. When

8:18

it's have let the T M. If it's just

8:20

like us, today is another day that a put

8:22

in the miles like yeah and. And.

8:26

So is so that that Attorney General conversation

8:28

is like a and go girl like nobody.

8:30

Promise you that this is gonna be. To.

8:33

And actually now as a parent like I'd say

8:36

they may have been of them and like we

8:38

not clowns like I did not sign up to

8:40

them were a red nose and entertain this kid

8:42

or that like she'll figure it out. And

8:45

that's how I have been successful. A full. Of.

8:49

I love the attitude and ability to

8:51

absorb a little bit of it so

8:53

the sake of personal example for me

8:55

yes, I'm taking this moment as like,

8:57

okay, Robbins my personal Curtis said what

8:59

I believe me Elias had been just

9:02

like playing Ultimate Frisbee in tennis for

9:04

cardio And then I'd started during the

9:06

elliptical. I like challenging myself and I

9:08

decided as is your four mile run

9:10

four days a week and within about

9:12

three months has had two minutes off.

9:14

My four mile time is super exciting.

9:16

I was down to under twenty. Amazing.

9:18

But then. I got sick. And

9:21

to me, couple weeks to recover and I've

9:23

never been able to get back to. It's

9:25

been over a year now and the progress

9:27

was extremely motivating, but now I'm frustrated. I'm

9:29

training just as hard as I did a

9:31

year ago and yet. Thirty.

9:33

Or so a second. Sloan. What are you

9:35

say to yourself in those moments? So.

9:38

First of all, those are what we call beginner games. So.

9:41

It's when you're new to some saying. Are you

9:43

calling me a Be Dollars for anything? As if

9:45

I wanted to start. Something Today I will,

9:47

you know and I consistently did it

9:49

for you said a year and that

9:51

year you're gonna see progress. And. You

9:53

can see those adaptations more quickly once you get

9:55

to the upper. Edge of your

9:58

natural and trained. The

10:00

dude and capabilities. It's gonna become harder

10:02

and harder to get that extra one

10:04

percent right. And the folks at the

10:06

top of their game This fight for

10:09

half a second. you know when you're

10:11

really talking about like Olympians assess So.

10:14

That's a totally natural bell curve

10:16

and the frustration that you're feeling.

10:19

You need to get enchanted with

10:21

something else along the way. Like

10:24

there has to be something else that

10:26

is your care it. it's gotta be

10:28

something else about the process. You

10:31

just have the can sleep. Super

10:33

consistent consistency. Is the infinite game? I'm

10:35

hundred percent with you there and this is what

10:37

I find frustrating. Lifting weights,

10:39

I don't always get stronger, but I can

10:41

always maintained my strongest like when once I

10:43

reached a certain Pete, I didn't know if

10:45

I was going to exceed it, but I

10:47

could always get back to that level. and

10:49

I think it's a feeling of getting worse

10:52

as opposed to stagnating that really bugs. Okay,

10:54

okay, so what would you do about that?

10:56

right? The what? if you change the game? This

10:58

is what I'm saying like it's like fall in love

11:00

with something about the process of your heaviest lift.

11:02

I'm kind of reading the ceiling on. My one

11:04

rep max for this last. What

11:06

can I do for five? for what? what can I

11:09

do for twenty nine seasons? Into the volume, he conceded

11:11

consistency. So you know there's a lot of things that

11:13

you can play with. That's how I choose to look

11:15

at the. Movement Okay so this is this

11:17

is your i guess or capturing a

11:19

a challenge that I have from personality

11:21

standpoint which is I don't want to

11:23

mix it up. As I found

11:25

my goal. I'm attached to it and I

11:27

don't really want to take on a new

11:29

challenge and you're saying get over it Yes,

11:32

Of Allah Me real Do you creating your

11:34

own plateau my not changing up the stimuli?

11:36

Yes. I'll. Have your own. That's

11:38

about as a lot of my life other.

11:40

That's the thing I mean what?

11:43

So you try you try and

11:45

different variables. You. Get supercharged and

11:47

you know a little bit of achievement. Different

11:49

carrots and you're gonna have new goals is

11:51

it's gonna be great. You have what most

11:54

people are are able to the chiefs which

11:56

is did the consistency is showing up That's

11:58

most people's. Are. You.

12:01

Talking about finding something you enjoy in

12:03

the process and I think this this

12:05

goes to some of what I've been

12:07

writing about her and deliberate play and

12:09

transforming the grant. I.

12:11

Find it's really challenging and and activity

12:13

like running, running is probably the most

12:15

boring thing is not a lot of

12:17

variety and it it doesn't feel creative

12:19

to me. I keep myself entertained by

12:21

watching Tv or movies or listening to

12:23

music or podcasts, but it compare to

12:26

every other sport I've done or every

12:28

other goal I pursued. It's the hardest

12:30

thing for me to turn into deliberate

12:32

place. So what's your secret? How do

12:34

you do it? For me? Running

12:36

in. A city and an

12:38

environment has always been part of

12:40

my my running narrative. A joke

12:43

that near city was like my

12:45

first boyfriend before I got married

12:47

with his ice has such a

12:49

deep relationship and running in New

12:51

York at high heeled from trauma

12:53

is how I celebrated. That's how

12:55

I metabolize. Like. Stuff.

12:58

Energetically are mostly so for me.

13:00

The him changing up the environment,

13:03

even taking the same route backwards

13:05

goes a long legs a yacht

13:07

is him different visual cues. I

13:09

force myself to sign up for

13:12

sixty mile or two marathons. So.

13:15

I can leave my think of as

13:17

I can I pod shuffle or whatever

13:19

at the time at home like that

13:21

was my cross to bear was like

13:23

I'm going to train for this ultra

13:26

with out. These. Tools. And.

13:30

Your. Mind just a click in a different

13:32

way. like it's really hard for me. I'm

13:34

sure there are scientists since and doctors who

13:37

could explain that from from like a biological

13:39

level or a brain health level. but. That.

13:43

that is what happened to me like i

13:45

started also training and i was just able

13:47

to get this immense slow say that was

13:49

earned it was not like this first run

13:52

was a joy and a runner's high some

13:54

of it was very much a grind physically

13:56

of course it was but i would say

13:59

mentally i was able to focus on different things.

14:01

I would be at a light and just focus

14:03

on like the architecture in New York which I never even

14:05

look at but I live here you know so those are

14:07

the little things. Oh but I will say

14:10

when I did those five marathons in five days across Utah

14:12

it was harder for me to use

14:15

the landscape as

14:17

fuel. For me there's

14:19

something about an urban environment but obviously

14:21

that's super subjective. It's not very prescriptive advice.

14:24

No I think that makes sense. It's another

14:26

sort of prompt to look for more variety

14:29

not just in the goals but in the process. Yeah but

14:31

I think you're being so hard. So then

14:33

what if running isn't your deliberate play? What

14:36

if running is just your is your cardio?

14:39

Like we don't have to make it more than it is all

14:41

the time. I agree with that and that's that's how I've

14:43

been looking at it actually is just to say look this

14:46

is the thing I do because it's good

14:48

for me and I like the way I feel afterward and

14:50

I guess I'm curious to

14:52

hear your take on the timing of it all

14:54

too. So I read some research recently that if

14:57

you work out in the morning before work you're

14:59

actually more engaged and less exhausted in your job.

15:02

More confident. Exactly yeah that you get that early

15:04

win and it not only boosts your energy but

15:06

your efficacy too. You're like okay

15:08

whatever challenge is in front of me it's it's

15:10

one that I can conquer as opposed to a

15:13

threat that I've got to run away from. And

15:15

that that led me to think okay there's

15:17

a case to be made that we should

15:19

aim for morning workouts whenever possible. But

15:22

sometimes like a today is a good example.

15:24

I just felt like crap. I

15:27

did my morning workout anyway it didn't go well and then I

15:29

felt like I had to do another one to make up for

15:31

it. I'm like I should have just waited till I felt that

15:33

early. How do you think about that kind of dilemma? Do

15:36

you always do morning workouts? Do you mix

15:38

it up depending on how you feel? Hmm

15:40

that's a really great question. Like when do you

15:42

call it? Like when is it pivoting and

15:44

when is it failing? So

15:46

99% of the time my schedule

15:50

and my process and

15:52

my discipline trump how I'm

15:55

feeling. The exceptions would be Fever

15:58

you know COVID like stuff that I. right?

16:00

Yeah, Well, you aren't. You and stay

16:02

in bed today but didn't The guys

16:04

are injury is your yes? super to

16:07

injury but those are outliers. I almost

16:09

always feel better after a workout, but

16:11

this is what you have to modulate.

16:13

is the effort right? And I think

16:15

that actually takes a greater amount of

16:18

self love and discipline. And.

16:20

A greater amount of confidence to know when

16:22

to pull back in those instances so it's

16:24

less about do I show up or not,

16:26

but it's having the confidence in the discipline

16:28

to say I'm going to sell up and

16:30

I'm not going to put extra weight on

16:32

the bar. I am not going to go

16:34

that literal extra mile because. Right now

16:36

today, this is my hundred percent and

16:38

that's okay. I like that it

16:40

reminds me of a mean I saw not

16:42

too long ago where it was an image

16:44

of your best looking different everyday. This. Was.

16:47

Such a good reminder. There's. So much

16:49

freedom in that framework, because then

16:51

it doesn't feel like failure. It

16:53

feels like. You are owning.

16:57

How you're showing up. Has. A

16:59

beard feeling less than one hundred percent. but you

17:01

still give. Up. To what you

17:03

have that day that still. A

17:05

success of reason is of your energy system that

17:07

very real you percent some here couple minutes ago

17:10

that I want to come back to you which

17:12

is the question Do you have to get better.

17:15

Why do I have to be obsessed with

17:17

my personal best? Are my personal record? Is

17:19

it good just to work out. It.

17:22

It seems to me that your of two

17:24

minds about this and the one had you

17:27

really like to push yourself to keep improving.

17:29

And ah, the other hand, you're telling other

17:31

people to be content. That. Today.

17:33

Was okay. I got through it. It wasn't Grace.

17:35

How do you navigate their tents and live in

17:38

that tens in every moment? Everyday I. A

17:40

president seasons to for me right now

17:42

and I'm in a season of. Really?

17:45

Focusing. On power enlisting and and

17:47

then like strength seasons of my

17:49

life and so running silly cycling,

17:51

but I'm getting a little bit

17:53

more granular and specific on. The.

17:56

weights that i'm putting on the bar the

17:58

barbell are are that are in the dumbbells.

18:01

I went through a period of time for almost 10

18:03

years where it was signing up for race trying to

18:05

get faster, always trying to get faster, like the

18:08

track and the splits and in the watch

18:10

and the Garmin and the shoes and like

18:12

how can I move the needle 1% and

18:14

I understand that hunger but

18:16

I burnt out. It was like my 25th marathon

18:19

I think and I was just like I hate

18:21

every second of this and part of it then

18:23

also it was my job and there was like

18:25

a recognizable aspect of it on the course and

18:28

I was really resenting the training and I thought oh

18:30

my gosh no I don't want to give this up

18:32

I love it too much so I have to pull

18:34

back. So I actually pulled back and

18:36

that's when I really started focusing on lifting and

18:38

then my last New York City Marathon two years

18:40

ago I loved it

18:43

and it wasn't a personal record but it was a

18:45

time that I was proud of and

18:47

it was also pretty noodly postpartum but so

18:49

there are a lot of factors there but

18:52

zooming out allowed me to fall

18:54

in love with it again in a different way and

18:57

now I have a more

18:59

nuanced relationship with the

19:02

run that will serve me much

19:04

longer than this binary win

19:07

or lose either I PR or I fail

19:09

and I wanted to hold on to the run like I want

19:11

to maintain this love affair for a lot longer. You

19:14

mentioned that motivation is a myth or a

19:16

lie in some ways and I think you

19:18

prefer momentum. Talk to me about the difference

19:20

between the two. So motivation

19:23

hinges on whether

19:26

or not we feel like it whether we

19:28

saw something on Instagram like who cares it's

19:31

about taking action and

19:34

being a self-generated

19:37

momentum factory. I

19:39

think when we can marry a

19:41

process that works with a

19:44

purpose that gets us out of bed it doesn't

19:47

matter whether we're motivated to do it.

19:49

It is the momentum that is going

19:51

to create future motivation. Motivation

19:53

is like the nicely dressed

19:55

person who shows up at the party two hours late.

19:57

It's like girl we've been here. Nice

20:00

of you to show up. That's such an

20:02

interesting reversal of the way we normally

20:04

think about motivation in psychology I've been

20:06

studying the psychology motivation for a

20:09

quarter century now and It's

20:11

always defined as a set

20:13

of psychological processes that focus

20:15

and energize and maintain effort

20:18

And so it sounds like motivation has

20:20

to precede action But I think

20:22

you're spot-on and there are a couple bodies of evidence

20:24

that speak to this They'd say yeah, if

20:26

you have zero motivation, you're not gonna act But

20:29

all you need is a tiny bit to say, okay

20:31

I'm gonna go to the gym or I'm gonna

20:34

I'm gonna go to bed in my workout clothes

20:36

So I wake up feeling like I already took

20:38

a I just what about this? I just

20:40

talked about this on Good Morning

20:42

America It's making one small decision

20:44

today that is gonna make

20:47

tomorrow a little bit easier So

20:49

you need a little motivation to act and then

20:51

you're right the action as it creates momentum as

20:53

you have a sense of Advocacy

20:55

and progress then your motivation

20:57

rises with him. Mm-hmm That's

21:01

such a cool reorientation of everything we

21:03

think we know about motivation Well,

21:06

please well, I'm honored to hear that

21:08

from you Adam. Thank you. I think it's really compelling

21:10

it I think we're

21:12

actually teaching a lot of motivation theory wrong. Mmm

21:15

based on that I think it does

21:17

more harm than it does good for people

21:19

to expect this

21:21

avalanche of motivation to come or

21:23

this Consistent trickle of

21:26

motivation to appear and

21:28

that's just not the way it works. Like if you

21:30

aren't Taking action.

21:33

It's an illusion. I don't wait for

21:35

motivation. I just act and That's

21:38

what you need to taking any element

21:40

of action quells my anxiety

21:44

establishing one point of focus quells

21:48

my fear and It

21:51

really has helped me with my relationship with

21:53

these concepts of fear

21:56

and anxiety and motivation because

22:00

As long as I can make one

22:02

choice, literally put one thing on my

22:04

calendar, send one email, put my shoes

22:06

by the door, I know that

22:08

I'm just going to iteratively get there. It will

22:10

ladder up to something, even if that something looks

22:13

different than I imagined. I'm thinking about a

22:15

Hauser-Marco and Sheldon paper on seeing

22:17

yourself as a doer. When

22:19

you get an identity as an exerciser,

22:22

or more specifically, a cyclist, or

22:25

a runner, or

22:27

a healthy eater, that that

22:29

becomes something that you want to keep

22:31

doing. One of the things

22:33

you do in your day job now is

22:35

you motivate people to take on those identities.

22:39

I've heard from people, Robin, who their

22:41

identity is, I'm a member of the Wolfpack.

22:44

I'm honored. Which is

22:46

a really strong statement that you become part

22:48

of who they are. How

22:50

do you think about embracing these kinds of identities

22:52

yourself? And then also, how

22:54

do you help other people see themselves

22:56

in these doer terms? Well, I

22:59

mean, it helps that I'm physically doing

23:01

workouts on the Peloton platform with these

23:03

folks, right? I'm not just sitting

23:05

in an office talking into a microphone in

23:07

their ear, right? So there's that shared experience. Robin's

23:10

Wolfpack was really established as like, you

23:13

can be a lone wolf, but we're going

23:15

to navigate this together. We're going

23:17

to sharpen our teeth on these workouts. And

23:20

I'm not afraid of that hunger. I

23:23

want to see more of it. So

23:26

that's kind of the premise or the value system that

23:28

it sits atop. But the method

23:30

is really doing the workout with someone and

23:32

the things that I'm infusing in the workouts,

23:34

the storytelling, the mantras, it's stuff that I've

23:36

journaled that probably that morning. It's stuff that

23:38

I've told myself. I always do my own

23:40

workout before I teach at Peloton. And

23:43

that has been consistent for over

23:45

10 years because I need to kind of get

23:48

and maintain my own energy before I'm

23:50

now doing it in a shared

23:52

space. Wait, I'm sorry, Robin, you're doing a

23:55

pre-workout before your workout. This

23:57

is like a cool down. What other

23:59

people think is... I mean it depends. It

24:01

depends. Like the other day I taught a

24:03

really tough 45-minute intervals ride called a

24:05

hit and hills ride. I knew that

24:07

ride was going to be really challenging, so

24:10

I did an hour of pilates prior.

24:12

I'm trying to balance it. And so

24:14

if I know it's going to be a

24:16

little bit more of a strength-focused workout,

24:18

maybe that morning I'll do my running

24:20

intervals. Right? I'm being smart and prescriptive with

24:22

my own movement. My workout proceeds the

24:24

peloton workout. That's not my workout. Well, a

24:26

lot of people self-esteem just took a hit. It's

24:30

my job. It's my job to do that.

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May apply. right,

25:46

let's go to a lightning round. Are you ready?

25:48

Ready. Worst advice you've

25:50

ever gotten. Stay in your lane.

25:53

Favorite workout mantras. Um,

25:56

this morning I was doing a workout.

26:00

out and I mean I

26:03

just kept telling myself you are that bitch. What

26:05

does that mean? You

26:10

know how some artists have like

26:12

alter egos like Deontay, Sasha, Fierce. I

26:14

don't have a name for her but there

26:17

is something that switches in

26:20

my workouts that it's like I

26:22

am banging on my chest and like

26:24

speaking in the third person. That's

26:28

so funny. If you

26:30

haven't read Ethan Cross's book Chatter. Oh okay I'll

26:33

add that to my list. There's a whole psychology

26:35

of that. Self distance,

26:37

self talk is more motivating. It feels like it's

26:39

coming from someone else. It does. It's

26:42

like this disembodied voice that is actually not

26:44

disembodied at all. Quite

26:46

the opposite. What

26:49

about the worst workout advice you've ever

26:51

heard or gotten? Everybody

26:54

needs to prepare in order to workout. Like

26:57

just start. Start where you are,

26:59

meet yourself where you are and do something. Your

27:02

least obvious workout tip. Sleep

27:04

is the unlock for all of it. If

27:07

you're getting less than six hours of sleep any

27:09

kind of consistent movement practice is going to become so

27:11

much harder. What's something you've rethought

27:13

lately? Recently postpartum I

27:16

had to rethink achievement. I

27:18

had to rethink what

27:20

felt like success in my workouts. Because

27:24

slowing down and taking weight off and

27:26

doing body weight and just starting from

27:28

what felt like zero was incredibly humbling.

27:31

So I had to reestablish what success

27:33

felt like in that period. Is

27:35

there a favorite non-workout form of movement

27:37

you have as a person who likes

27:39

creative movement? Dancing with my kids. We

27:42

have kitchen dance parties. They're awesome. Why

27:45

does that not surprise me? And

27:49

what's the question you have for me? Oh gosh. What

27:52

has been the hardest lesson

27:54

that you've learned? Like recently? The

27:57

one that took you longest to kind of digest? Honestly,

28:00

right now it's the one that I'm trying

28:02

to learn, which is. That

28:05

once. I like and on a goal. I

28:08

need to be willing to be flexible and

28:10

both the and I'm working toward and also

28:13

the means that I used to achieve it.

28:15

It's. Incredibly productive but is often

28:17

and creative and too many air

28:20

and sometimes leads right to

28:22

a brick wall. And

28:25

what Are you most excited? About right now. Right

28:27

now I'm I'm excited that I have

28:29

the space to figure out what I'm

28:31

excited about. Yes, that to mete. Know

28:33

it's amazing. I don't have your like a

28:35

vision board die but I do this and

28:38

boards and at it for me they allow

28:40

made some just dream and then I take

28:42

that vision board and I create action items

28:44

and then I put those action items in

28:46

my town. it's that gives me a sense

28:48

of control even if where I end up

28:50

in the creative process looks nothing like that.

28:52

I need something to. Plants.

28:54

And sees. That. So funny. Had

28:56

our producer says i imagine you are

28:58

not a vision bird does Russia are

29:01

have as much as a my idea

29:03

of a visit Word is a word

29:05

Doc says. Hey I can see that

29:07

us to each their own spin on

29:09

how do you go back to the

29:11

well, especially when you're prior successes behind

29:13

you. How do you navigate that feeling

29:15

of like. Is wrong

29:17

on? like to have any more ideas left.

29:20

I think that feeling is irrational. Because

29:22

I do is come from within. They come

29:25

from the outside world for the most as

29:27

yes. Or from the the friction

29:29

between. My. Perspective and

29:31

values and what I see and experience.

29:33

and so if I feel like I

29:35

don't have any ideas. Haven't

29:37

read anything outside my wheelhouse. I

29:39

haven't had interesting interactions or conversations

29:41

are gone to events center with

29:44

people that are different from the

29:46

backgrounds I usually see. So to

29:48

me not having ideas is a

29:50

sign that I'm making a mistake

29:52

in the way that I structure

29:55

my done. Not. That

29:57

Ives regress. But the. Friction that's

29:59

needed for. expansion also

30:02

lives in widening the aperture of

30:04

your runs and your movement practice. Oh,

30:07

you're twisting the

30:09

knife Robin. You're

30:11

gonna make sure I internalize this lesson. But

30:15

you're right, it's true. Okay,

30:17

so I want to talk about motivating

30:19

other people. You didn't go and study

30:21

to become a trainer, a

30:23

coach, an icon. You have this this

30:26

status in other people's minds.

30:29

There are people who rely on you for

30:31

encouragement, for confidence. Yes, even

30:33

sometimes for, let's say, momentum,

30:35

if not motivation. What

30:37

have you learned through playing that role for other

30:40

people? I don't believe in practicing

30:42

what you preach. It's preaching what I

30:44

already practice. And what I myself as

30:46

a guinea pig, as my own personal

30:48

science experiments have done back

30:51

when I was in this healing period from trauma, I

30:53

was like, I can be a victim or a victor.

30:55

And I'm going to start

30:57

writing a new story. And I love superhero. I

30:59

grew up with like Shira in the 80s. And

31:01

I love the whole superhero ride. The

31:03

power of grace. Exactly.

31:06

And, you know, I was like,

31:09

I'm just gonna create myself into this

31:13

person that I respect into a badass, and

31:15

I'm going to create a superhero toolkit. And

31:17

in that toolkit, I put breath

31:19

work, and therapy, and movement,

31:22

and healthy eating, and all the

31:24

things that we all know, right? It's one

31:27

Google search away from this information. But

31:29

it's consistently going back to that toolkit

31:31

at different chapters of our lives and

31:33

saying, this is what I need right

31:35

now. And so I guess

31:37

the motivation piece is consistently doing that

31:40

and consistently revealing aspects of that

31:42

toolkit, hopefully in a helpful way.

31:44

But I'm

31:47

just a small part of the

31:49

story. It's people consistently showing up

31:51

and meeting that version of themselves

31:53

that they like people say,

31:56

be your best self. I

31:58

Think people have an opportunity when they. The are

32:00

consistently moving in and working out. To.

32:03

Become their favorite selves And

32:05

that is. A. Bigger revelation? What's

32:07

the difference in the To for. You

32:09

Best includes. Other

32:12

people's definitions of success. And.

32:15

I. Think savor it. Requires.

32:18

Befriending ourselves in our heads, I

32:21

think there's something very, very crucial that

32:23

happens when you are consistently moving in

32:26

that you had the opportunity to speak

32:28

to your since like you would have

32:30

friends. And even better when you have

32:32

what somebody on the other side of

32:34

the screen like myself who you perceive

32:36

as as appear as bad as a

32:38

leader as a friend. Great. Your.

32:41

Part of the Wolfpack. less rock, And

32:43

really curious about the spill over into

32:45

the rest your life. Do you do

32:47

you say to your toddler or your

32:49

husband you are that bit of us.

32:52

Now I saw my last. Not yet. Who knows

32:54

where do I don't have read? This is will

32:56

look like and in twenty years do you. Motivate

32:59

them differently as a result of the work

33:01

you do. It's hard to turn

33:03

it off. I'm not as prescriptive with every

33:05

single person in my life that would be

33:07

sick too much. but yeah, like you know,

33:10

Sometimes. It's allowing my daughter to feel

33:12

frustrated is giving her. Mom says that we

33:14

can do hard things that she is brave

33:16

even when she scared she sees me do

33:19

sprints on the pulse on said she came

33:21

up to the of the mornings was a

33:23

good dell of hard that look like Canada

33:25

does he have added there at three years

33:27

old but yeah I'm allowing her to see

33:30

me struggling the that's really important. I'm

33:32

curious about why we have such different reactions

33:34

to Montrose in different parts of our life.

33:37

So. We love them for

33:39

workouts. We. Think they're really cheesy

33:41

when they show up on a poster

33:43

in the office. Part of that is.

33:46

They're always more compelling when they come from

33:48

Somebody that you I can trust isn't Oh,

33:51

absolutely. And point. There aren't ulterior motives behind

33:53

them like a boss trying to trick you

33:55

into working harder. Doubt I would. I wonder

33:57

if it's more complicated than that? How

34:00

do you think about the application of mantras to

34:02

different spheres of life beyond exercise? I

34:05

actually don't have that cynical reaction

34:07

to those. Not every single

34:09

one would necessarily speak to me, but

34:11

if it doesn't speak to me, I just keep it

34:13

moving. And if it does, I will often literally write

34:15

it down in my journal or notes in my phone.

34:18

I want to live in that ecosystem

34:20

where everywhere I look, there's

34:22

material for me to build myself

34:24

up. And because

34:26

you never know what's going to resonate in any

34:28

given day. So I actually

34:30

love it. And I love it all, even if

34:33

it's not individually for me in that moment in

34:35

time. I was struck when

34:37

you said that a plateau is a launching pad

34:39

as a good example of a mantra that I

34:41

find compelling. How do you think about launching

34:44

to what? Like, let's

34:46

go back, for example, to your career transition.

34:50

There are a lot of different directions you could have taken

34:52

that. How did you decide? I initially

34:54

took a leave of absence from my

34:56

law firm and I had a Tumblr

34:58

at the time, a blog, and I

35:00

just told myself that I was going

35:02

to start documenting my story and see

35:05

who I could connect

35:07

with. And it was really from a

35:09

naive place. I had no idea.

35:12

I did have my billable hours model

35:14

from law. And I was like, okay,

35:16

if folks find this

35:18

interesting, I'm a consultant now. And there

35:20

wasn't some north star of somebody's career

35:22

that I could exactly model because a

35:25

lot of this stuff didn't even exist

35:27

yet. Influencer marketing, Peloton didn't exist. There

35:29

was a lot that was just being

35:31

built. And I wrote down my skill

35:33

set. And then I wrote another list of things that

35:36

I probably should know. My running

35:38

coach certification, my personal stuff that I

35:40

could control and educate myself on. It

35:43

was quitting my law firm job, going to the 2012 Olympic

35:45

Games with a cracked iPhone and

35:47

just quote reporting from the games, whatever

35:50

the hell that meant for me, as

35:52

with no journalist background. But I knew

35:54

I could write. I left London with

35:57

a job actually working for an

35:59

agency. where Nike women was

36:01

my client. And I got this

36:03

job by playing

36:06

around in London, interviewing athletes, completely

36:08

hustling, reaching out and DMing. I

36:10

mean, it was a complete crapshoot,

36:13

but I slept on my friend's couch for three weeks

36:15

and I figured it out, so I left there with

36:17

a job. But I thought it was my dream job,

36:19

because I thought, okay, this is social media, it's storytelling,

36:21

it's sport, it's women in sport, it's one of the

36:23

biggest brands in the world. And

36:25

I didn't like it because I was hiding

36:27

behind other people's stories.

36:30

And I knew that I had a specific point

36:32

of view and mantras and a burgeoning body of

36:34

work that I wanted to get out there. And

36:37

I was also working on my first book at the time, I

36:39

shot up and run, it was like a running manual. And

36:42

then quitting that job truly felt like

36:44

jumping off the cliff. And

36:47

that is when I just went back into the

36:49

toolkit. I was like, okay, girl, what you got?

36:51

And then I started reading a little bit about

36:53

Peloton and I sent them a cold email and

36:55

I just said, hey, what's up, we should be

36:57

working together. And I auditioned two

37:00

days later and I had a contract at the end of that week. Wow,

37:02

wait, you actually said we should

37:04

be working together? Correct, info at

37:07

pelotoncycle.com. That email alias doesn't

37:09

exist anymore. Wow, that's

37:12

bold. Very, very, that was over

37:14

10 years ago. What

37:18

do you think they responded to in that? And why

37:20

was it such a quick audition to job

37:22

process? This is a very traditional

37:25

audition, right? So it's like camera on, you

37:27

play your music. I was showing what I

37:29

could offer. I think energy speaks

37:32

volumes. Energy is absolutely a currency. And

37:34

in that email, I just threw everything in

37:37

there, how impassioned I was, how I had

37:39

thought I had my dream career, but I

37:41

knew it wasn't. And I wanted to be

37:44

disruptive in technology and storytelling and go global.

37:46

I believed in the dream. Like I believed

37:48

that it would go beyond a small cycling

37:50

studio on 23rd street. I really

37:53

believed that we could create a community to change

37:55

people's lives. And I knew, because I was teaching

37:57

at a small cycling studio in New York City.

38:00

with 15, 20 bikes. And

38:02

I would just sit there and think, this has to

38:04

be able to scale bigger than this. I just didn't

38:06

know what that meant until I read the article about

38:08

Peloton. I love this point that

38:10

energy is a form of currency. It's

38:13

exactly what I came away with when I met you

38:15

last year. I must've been talking

38:17

to two or three different people who are super fans of

38:19

yours. What is it about

38:21

Robin? Why are you so attached

38:23

to this one person? Because I'm

38:26

like, you're not a cult leader. No,

38:28

no, no. That is not on my

38:30

2024 vision board. I

38:33

hope not, but you have that kind of

38:35

passionate following. And I wanted to know

38:37

why. I'm guessing that's just something that

38:40

comes naturally, but I wonder if it's something you've

38:42

actually thought about, how you project it as a

38:44

currency. I don't necessarily think about how

38:46

I project it, but I do think about

38:48

how I protect it. I

38:51

protect my energy, like

38:54

with a shield and a sword. And by

38:57

that, I mean, I say no to

38:59

most things. My home is a cocoon

39:01

and it's really protected. Like nobody enters

39:04

my home unless they're in my personal

39:06

life and really understand that energetic vibration

39:09

that I wanna keep. I've

39:11

long understood energy to be a currency, my own

39:13

energy to be a currency. And I think about

39:16

how I'm spending it or saving it very much

39:18

as somebody might think about their finances. And

39:21

that's why sleep and fuel and

39:25

all these hydration, all the basics, I

39:28

actually consider like my full-time job. Because

39:30

nobody, none of my partners make

39:33

money if I don't protect that. This

39:35

captures something that I think so many

39:37

people get wrong when they contrast hustle

39:40

culture with self-care. There's a difference between

39:42

intensity and volume. Yes. And that you

39:44

can choose something extremely challenging and push

39:46

yourself extremely hard to try

39:49

to achieve it. But that doesn't mean you

39:51

have to beat yourself up or burn yourself out.

39:54

Hustle requires the confidence

39:58

to define what

40:01

the latter looks like, what the

40:03

definition of success looks like. And

40:05

my definition of success includes my

40:07

own self-care practices. I'm redefining hustle.

40:09

Yes. So how would you define hustle then? I

40:12

would define hustle as work

40:14

ethic that is gritty but

40:16

also gracious and

40:18

I want to create a sustainable hum. And

40:22

to me that means being

40:25

so proud when my head hits the pillow with

40:27

a willingness and freedom to go to bed at night. That's

40:30

a hell of a vision. It's what I think about.

40:33

I could draw that. It's not going to be on a vision

40:35

book. I could draw it. I'll

40:37

take it. Gritty but also gracious. A

40:40

sustainable hum. Love it. Well

40:43

I don't want to keep you any longer. You

40:45

have people to motivate and

40:47

PRs to smash. That's right. Or

40:49

naps to take. And

40:52

I'm going to inflict some of your mantras on my

40:54

colleagues. Spread the

40:56

good word. Energy

41:00

is currency. That might

41:02

be my new favorite mantra. What

41:04

am I talking about? I'm not supposed to have any favorite

41:07

mantras. I am definitely

41:09

a mantra skeptic. And

41:11

my impulse was when I

41:13

heard a mantra that I thought was silly

41:15

or oversimplified to either dismiss

41:17

it or debunk it. Now

41:19

I'm thinking that even if a mantra doesn't

41:21

motivate me today, it could be a source

41:24

of momentum to mine. Rethinking

41:28

is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and produced

41:30

by Ted with Cosmic Standards. Our team includes

41:32

Colin Helm, Eliza Smith, Jacob Winnick,

41:35

Asia Simpson, Tamiah Adams, Michelle Quinn,

41:37

Fan-Ben Cheng, Hannah Kingsley-Mauch, Julia Dickerson,

41:39

and Whitney Pennington-Rogers. This episode was

41:41

produced and mixed by Cosmic Standards.

41:43

Our fact checker is Paul Durbin.

41:46

Original music by Hans DelSue and

41:48

Alison Leighton-Brown. My

41:51

next step is going to be any day I

41:54

don't hit it, I'm just gonna punish myself by running longer.

41:58

Great, that's not what I said, but let me know how that goes. I

42:00

love it. It actually sounds

42:02

fun. I

42:30

love it.