0:01

What do you think about my general presence

0:04

on email? I

0:06

would say you're not the best of email. I

0:09

just think you missed things. Sometimes. The problem

0:11

with you and sending emails is that it's

0:14

very unpredictable when

0:16

you will read, if you will read,

0:19

and when you will reply. First time

0:21

I met you, I was introduced to you. You gave

0:23

me your business card and said here, this is my

0:25

email if you need to get in touch, and

0:28

so literally like that night,

0:30

I emailed you and said, hey, it

0:33

was nice to meet you. Here are some things that

0:35

would be helpful, and I

0:37

never heard back. Once I

0:39

sent an email saying, hey, I really want to

0:41

go to this conference. I need to sign up

0:43

for it by Friday

0:46

and it's Wednesday. Do you think I can do it?

0:48

And I kind of forgot about it,

0:50

and then I didn't hear back from

0:52

you. So by the time that we did

0:54

get around and discussing it, it was the next week I

0:57

didn't get to go. So more often

0:59

than not, I just wander over and talk to

1:01

you. Definitely no to harass

1:04

you on chat, and

1:07

if all else fails to engage

1:09

with you in person, and

1:11

then I guess if that if if you're still

1:13

am I, I might go to to your

1:15

boss, where

1:18

would you say I rank and like among all the people

1:20

you work with? Am I like the worst about email? Or

1:23

am I? Am I in the middle? Or am I close

1:25

to the bottom. I don't think

1:27

you're at the very bottom, but you're near

1:29

the bottom

1:31

if we're being honest. So

1:41

what you just heard was a

1:43

bunch of my colleagues totally

1:46

dissing my email habits. I

1:48

knew I wasn't great an email, but

1:51

I didn't realize I was making everyone else's

1:53

lives that much harder. This

1:56

week on Works for Me, I try to

1:58

fix it. Um. Welcome

2:09

to Works for Me, the show where we improve

2:11

ourselves using productivity hats

2:13

to see if they'll work for you. I'm

2:16

back at Greenfield, and I'm Francesca leaving.

2:18

This week it is Francesca's turn to

2:21

change something about the way she works.

2:23

Francesca, what's bothering you about

2:25

your productivity? This week? I'm

2:29

bad at email, Like,

2:32

very, very very bad at email. My

2:35

work inbox is so overwhelming that

2:37

I'm drowning in it. I actually miss

2:40

emails that are pretty important. I

2:42

just won't see them because of all the other stuff that comes

2:44

in and when I do spot a relevant

2:47

email and open it and read it, I

2:49

don't actually have a good system for handling

2:51

and dispatching each email quickly.

2:54

So I'm hearing two problems. One is that your

2:56

inbox is overwhelming, which is a problem a lot

2:58

of us have. My work

3:00

email is certainly like that. My personal

3:02

email is definitely more under control. Congratulations,

3:05

thank you. But then the other problem

3:07

I'm hearing is that you haven't figured out how to thrive

3:09

in this chaos. I basically

3:12

avoid it. I see the sheer number of

3:14

emails and it scares me and I go burrow

3:16

under a rock, which is a problem

3:18

since email is a main form of communication

3:21

for a better worse in our world. To

3:24

be fair, I didn't get into

3:26

this situational by myself. The modern

3:28

workplace is in an email crisis.

3:30

We're drowning in a deluge of email

3:33

and jargon. The average corporate

3:35

employee in this two thousand mind

3:37

you received anywhere from fifty

3:40

emails per day, and it's growing at

3:42

about fifteen per year. So if you

3:44

do the math, it would double every four and a half to five

3:46

years. That's Phil Simon, a professor

3:49

at Arizona State University. He

3:51

wrote a book called Message Not Received,

3:53

all about how the corporate world is crippled

3:56

by too much email. He's

3:58

not wrong. I live that problem. Um. I

4:01

decided to sit down at home with my husband Mike

4:03

and diagnose just how bad the problem

4:05

had gotten. All right,

4:07

so I'm gonna show you one day. One

4:10

day is worth of email. Okay, So

4:12

this is like there's

4:16

twenty emails per page, So

4:19

six pages, six times twenty

4:23

unread well total emails? Is

4:28

that something like all that that

4:31

you haven't read? Yes? Or

4:34

does this include spam email? I

4:37

get a lot of pr um

4:39

like public relations firms put you on mailing

4:41

lists, So I have a lot

4:43

of unwanted mailing list emails. So

4:46

then why don't you just delete them if you know you're

4:48

not going to read them?

4:51

A good question? I

4:53

mean, I mean I think I get

4:55

overwhelmed because it's so much.

4:57

Look how close these emails came in together,

5:00

like to seven to one,

5:05

so they just like they just come

5:07

in like an avalianche checking your email.

5:09

Right, I know, But I to make this workout

5:12

have to be constantly deleting these exactly.

5:14

That's how it works. If you go to lunch and come

5:16

back to your desk and you haven't looked

5:18

at it for thirty minutes, forty minutes, Um,

5:22

how many new emails would it have, say,

5:26

I would have like new

5:29

emails. Yeah, I

5:31

mean that's so that's why it's hard for me to

5:34

delete. Yeah,

5:36

but it sounds like there's also a lot of things that you're subscribed

5:39

to that you should just unsubscribe

5:41

because that's the

5:43

same effect as deleting emails to

5:47

these pr email spam.

5:50

These are really insidious, Like these are the ones. I

5:52

think that this is going to be the biggest challenge. This is

5:54

the thing that I'm is going to be my um golies.

6:00

Is that the right metaphor going

6:03

to be my I don't feel

6:05

like that's what I'm looking for, But it's gonna be my

6:07

dragon to slay. It

6:10

sounds like my custom hausom good advice for

6:12

you, But my inbox definitely

6:14

looks a lot like yours. That's a lot

6:16

of unwanted things that I

6:18

just don't deal with. That's actually

6:21

kind of refreshing to hear, because I feel like you often

6:24

have good hygiene about these things. Mike just too.

6:26

I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who

6:29

just doesn't do anything about

6:31

these emails. Okay,

6:42

so everybody is sending too many emails,

6:44

it's not just you, but you sound

6:46

like you have a pretty big problem here. You're

6:50

getting a lot of emails, but you're also not

6:52

responding to them quickly or at

6:55

all. So how are you going to do that? I

6:58

really wanted a solution that didn't require to use

7:00

any new tech or install any apps system

7:03

that anybody could use on any email software.

7:06

So I'm going classic. I'm

7:08

doing inbox zero. Well,

7:10

in box zero, so that's like no emails

7:12

in your inbox ever, right, It's actually

7:14

pretty straightforward philosophy. It was developed

7:17

all the way back in two thousand seven by Merlin

7:19

Man. He's a writer, podcaster and

7:21

productivity guy. And yeah, it's

7:23

basically a filing system for your electronic

7:26

mail. And just like it sounds, inbox

7:28

zero dictates that you should end every

7:31

day with an empty inbox, either deleted

7:33

or filed into folders every single email

7:35

you've gotten. That sounds like a lot

7:37

of time spent on your email. And I think that's

7:40

some of the criticism to inbox zero and

7:42

systems like it, that's that it sets those really high

7:44

expectation and bar for people that

7:46

they have to do this really intense email

7:48

maintenance every single day. Yeah, I think

7:50

that in all of the years that inbox zero has

7:52

been around as an idea, there's definitely

7:54

been something about backlash to it, and that's

7:56

part of it that it takes so much time, And people also

7:59

say it's kind of a way of feeling

8:01

productive without being productive, because you're just you're

8:03

spending lots of time doing something, but what you're

8:05

doing is just your email. So I

8:08

get all those criticisms, and

8:10

I do think there's a danger that I'll spend a lot of time on it,

8:12

But I'm also I have to do something like I'm

8:14

in an email emergency right now, so

8:17

I think I've got to try the most extreme

8:19

thing I know of. Okay, so you're

8:21

going to become an inbox zero person. I'm

8:24

excited for you and your transformation, But

8:26

what's the exact system that you're going to follow

8:28

to get to invox zero? First,

8:31

I need to set up rules, including

8:34

folders and filters

8:36

on my email and even just telling

8:38

people in various ways

8:40

not to email me so much so I

8:43

don't get as many emails in the future that step

8:45

one. Next, I need

8:47

to get rid of everything sitting in my

8:49

inbox right now, which

8:51

is a lot, and I don't know how long that will

8:53

take. Finally, every day

8:55

after that, I'm going to assign three twenty

8:58

minute dashes where I can dedicate my self

9:00

to allotting emails to their proper place.

9:03

It seems like you have it all figured out.

9:05

How will you know whether your experiment is

9:08

a success. If

9:10

I can spend one week and finish every

9:12

day with an empty inbox, I've one. I've

9:14

conquered my email problem.

9:17

Good luck. Step

9:28

one of inbox zero, make

9:31

some rules. I was going to set up

9:33

folders and filters and

9:35

send a message to my colleagues that I am

9:37

not an email person anymore. This

9:40

was to try to lower the sheer number of emails

9:42

that I was getting. First,

9:44

I was going to set up some folders. I

9:46

got the idea from a Fast Company article

9:49

to make folders based on time,

9:52

not by subject. So the folders I set

9:54

up are called today,

9:58

this week, this month, M, and

10:01

F Y I. F Y I is where

10:03

everything goes that you might need to reference later,

10:05

but it doesn't require a response. I

10:08

did other things to limit how many new emails.

10:10

I got Phil, our email expert,

10:13

had given me a tip if an email chain goes

10:15

longer than three emails, it should

10:17

move to another medium. So I

10:20

put that rule in my email

10:22

signature. This turned

10:24

out to be harder than I expected. This

10:28

feels crazy to put this in my even

10:31

this to put this in my I

10:37

for email chains

10:40

longer than three

10:44

emails, please

10:50

call instead call

10:56

her message instead. Oh

11:02

this feels weird. All

11:05

right, I'm going to save it.

11:09

So it sounds like you're having a problem

11:12

where you're thinking about

11:14

other people more than yourself.

11:18

Yeah, because you're scared that you're going to find

11:20

someone with your email signature, when really

11:22

you're doing it in service of being a better

11:24

emailer and not because you're a mean person

11:27

who hates everybody. No, that's true. I should

11:29

have thought about it that way. And also, like, I'm

11:32

making other people's lives harder right now with my emails.

11:34

So even if I

11:36

make their life momentarily more annoying because

11:38

they have to read my somebody,

11:43

Yeah, and that's okay, but not as

11:45

much as I would upset somebody by not responding

11:47

to their true I did

11:49

a little more prep to set myself up for success.

11:51

Once my inbox is clear, I signed

11:54

emails from important people a special color

11:56

in my inbox, so they showed up above the noise, and

11:59

I saved tem blitz for the common emails

12:01

I send out all the time. Okay,

12:03

now it was time for step two, purging

12:06

my inbox. I had done everything

12:08

I could think of to slow down the barrage of

12:10

emails I was getting, But now

12:12

I had to tackle my real demon, my

12:14

ridiculously over stuffed inbox.

12:17

I had a year's worth of unread

12:20

or undealt with or just irrelevant

12:22

emails, thousands and thousands

12:24

of them. So

12:27

I did something radical and kind of controversial

12:29

here, something that inbox zero recommends

12:32

for some people called the email

12:34

d m Z. What is

12:36

the email d MZ? This

12:39

is where you basically take a bomb to your inbox.

12:41

I decided to wipe every

12:44

email older than two months, just zap

12:46

it gone. If it was

12:48

important and I didn't respond, it was probably too

12:50

late. Becca. Do you think you could do this?

12:52

Delete hundreds of emails in one shot without even

12:54

like checking on what they were. Yes, I am so

12:57

on board for this. I've actually wrote an article

12:59

about this one. I wrote an article about after

13:01

you come back from a vacation to

13:03

delete all the emails from before vacation. Just

13:05

do it. There's no Yeah, like you said, if it's important,

13:08

and I'll come back up again. And if you missed

13:10

it two months ago, you've probably missed your window.

13:12

Yeah. I think there's also a nagging fear that

13:15

there's just something important in there, like not

13:17

necessarily something I needed to respond to, but some crucial

13:19

piece of information that

13:22

I was going to delete and never find again. And I haven't

13:25

tested whether that's actually true, but

13:27

I suspect we I think

13:29

we think that's true more than it actually is,

13:31

Like we're not storing as much valuable

13:34

gems of info in our email as we

13:36

think we are. I wouldn't even know how to find

13:38

it. I

13:49

was ready to lift the weight of these

13:51

thousands of emails off me. It

13:54

was kind of scary, to be honest, just get

13:56

rid of them all in one big

13:58

select all swoop, you

14:00

know what. I'm just I just gotta do it. This is

14:02

crazy. I have thousands of

14:04

emails in here, so

14:07

I'm going to expand this window. Oh

14:09

my god, this is nerve racking. Okay, am

14:12

I really doing this? And

14:15

I'm just gonna do. Oh

14:18

my god, I have so many emails. I can't even understand.

14:21

Oh I got here, Okay,

14:24

here we go, shift

14:27

click delete, delete,

14:31

delete. But

14:34

I immediately ran into a problem.

14:37

Deleting the emails was not going to be a

14:39

one click deal. Our email system

14:41

doesn't actually have a select all function,

14:44

so I could only select about twenty emails

14:46

at a time. I was going to have to

14:48

go through these screen by

14:50

excruciating screen. This

14:52

would take hours. Delete

14:56

delete, shift

14:58

click delete. I've

15:04

been deleting, responding to

15:07

an archiving emails

15:09

for the last twenty minutes and I haven't even

15:11

gotten past today. So I'm going

15:13

to have to go home and pick it

15:15

up again from home because

15:18

this has to get done. This is a

15:20

shocking amount of time. While

15:29

I cleared the backlog, I also started

15:31

in on the emails I had decided to save from

15:33

the past two months, responding

15:36

to archiving or deleting every single

15:38

one. It took forever. I

15:40

was at the office two hours late and I still wasn't

15:42

done. To be honest, I was getting exhausted.

15:45

I went home, kissed my sleeping kid,

15:48

and got right back to my laptop. At

15:51

around ten thirty that night, I was finally

15:53

done, which is to say it took me around

15:55

six hours just to delete old emails

15:57

and respond to her file the ones that had

15:59

come in the past a couple of months. I'm

16:03

finally done. I'm

16:07

done sorting through emails,

16:10

deleting emails, categorizing

16:12

emails, responding in to emails, and

16:15

my inbox is empty. I

16:18

feel tired. That took

16:21

way way longer than I expected,

16:24

even the deleting part, but

16:27

I'm so glad I did. I feel

16:31

I feel like more

16:33

competent as a person

16:35

and a worker and a manager just

16:38

for doing that. It's

16:40

an amazing way to go to bed, which

16:42

I'm going to do right now because I'm really tired. And

16:46

then my inbox was empty.

16:49

I went to sleep, ready to start

16:51

my new life as an empty inbox

16:54

person. The question is

16:57

what would happen when new emails started coming

16:59

in find out after the

17:01

break. The

17:18

next day, I woke up feeling like

17:21

a new person. I

17:27

was free from all of those emails that

17:29

had been dragging me down. I had

17:31

spent the night before making sure

17:33

my inbox was Christine. I

17:37

walked over to my desk, opened

17:39

up my laptop, and

17:43

there they were dozens

17:46

of new emails. I

17:48

already had twenty two new pr

17:51

spam emails alone. This

17:55

was not going to be easy. It

17:57

was time to solve the next big email

17:59

problem. I had no system

18:02

for dealing with emails quickly when they came in. I

18:05

was done with steps one and two, make

18:08

rules and purge my inbox. Now

18:11

I needed to start on step three, keep

18:13

it up. I decided on a simplified

18:15

version of the steps. In Box zero lays out

18:18

scheduling email dashes throughout the day,

18:21

where you decide quickly whether to file, respond

18:23

to, or delete every email. Since

18:25

my folders would help me decide how quickly to

18:27

respond to things, I'd go through my inbox

18:29

three times a day for twenty minutes, and

18:31

then check my folders daily, weekly, and

18:33

monthly. My first email

18:36

dash of the day was at ten am,

18:38

and I had to deal with these mailing lists.

18:41

I think every profession probably has their own

18:43

special spam, and this is the kind

18:45

journalists get. Becca. Let me read you

18:47

some lines from these emails. I

18:50

know you cover advertising business news, so I

18:52

wanted to send this over to you right away so you have

18:54

the full scoop. I don't cover advertising, and it

18:56

wasn't a scoop? Or February

18:59

is International Boost Self Esteem

19:01

Month? Or is

19:03

a nose job? A no note for your kid? Parental

19:05

tips on team plastic surgery. I

19:08

know you must get these two. How

19:10

do you deal with them? Yeah? I think I even got some

19:12

of those exact same emails. How

19:14

do I deal with them? Ignore? I

19:16

just let them glaze like I

19:19

let my eyes glance over them and

19:21

decide they're unimportant. It's the

19:23

same way like when you have a mess in your

19:26

house for long enough, you stop seeing it. Yeah.

19:29

The reality of the situation is that itomb

19:31

is important things, usually not from

19:34

people I know, But I'll get pitched

19:36

things that I probably should cover. But because I

19:38

have my system involves me ignoring

19:41

most emails, things fall through

19:43

the trucks. Yeah. The worst thing about

19:45

these types of emails is that sometimes even when

19:47

you unsubscribe, it does nothing. Because

19:49

I did try that at first. I spent

19:51

about a day going and clicking on the little

19:54

four point font way way way at

19:56

the bottom of every email. But then

19:58

I realized it wasn't working. I

20:00

kept getting emails from the same senders,

20:03

so I tried something more extreme. Our company

20:05

software lets us block every email

20:07

from a certain domain, so when i'd get an

20:09

email from a list I knew I had already n subscribed

20:12

from, they got blocked. It

20:15

finally started to work, and the new

20:17

emails I was getting slowed down. I

20:20

also gingerly started

20:22

trying to train people to send me fewer

20:25

emails that email signature

20:27

I had added about not sending chains longer than

20:30

three emails. A colleague saw it and

20:32

called me a hero. And

20:34

one email threat that involved around twenty

20:36

people and had gone on for more than twenty

20:38

emails, I replied to

20:40

it with a helpful link, explained

20:43

that I couldn't add anything more to the conversation,

20:45

and asked to be taken off the chain, and

20:48

it worked. Meanwhile,

20:50

I was responding to the relevant emails like a

20:52

machine. I couldn't stand

20:55

seeing my beautiful, pristine, empty

20:57

email get cluttered, so

20:59

when more than two or three emails built up, I

21:01

panic and start responding. So

21:05

I'm looking at around twelve new

21:07

emails. I'm just gonna

21:10

zip right through them. Okay,

21:14

I am supposed to submit a podcast

21:17

for an award. Why

21:20

not let's submit,

21:23

send it done, and I'm going to delete

21:28

delete great, okay,

21:31

An email to someone

21:33

who reports to me, which I'm copied

21:35

on, so I'm

21:37

going to apply

21:41

to that person. So

21:44

I'm saying, Hi, please

21:46

do this so I don't get

21:49

any more emails about

21:51

it. Send

21:56

delete. I

21:58

was getting really good at sponding

22:00

and people were noticing. Listen to

22:02

all my haters who were in the studio before,

22:05

eat their words. Have

22:07

you noticed any changes since I started

22:10

doing endbox zero? I have

22:12

It's like night and day. Um,

22:15

I would say, now, I you get

22:17

an email and you reply instantly in a

22:19

way that I would never have expected you to do.

22:22

You are on it like I have. There's some stuff

22:24

where I haven't even gotten a chance to like open

22:27

up the email until I see your replies.

22:29

I feel as that you send out more emails

22:31

now, and when

22:34

you are a part of a group email that

22:36

I'm also I've also been on, you

22:39

respond with a little

22:41

more gusto than you have

22:43

in the past, just maybe

22:46

an exclamation point here there,

22:49

definitely faster within

22:51

the day a few hours tops.

22:54

Um, I've noticed that you have been

22:58

replying to emails in a more

23:00

consistent way. I even

23:02

tested you. I saw

23:04

you were heading to the students to record and I send you an

23:06

email and

23:09

it took twenty minutes to get back to me. So

23:12

I'm great at email now, everybody agrees.

23:15

But it turned out that there were downsides

23:17

to my new email obsession. I

23:19

was cheating on my dashes instead of sticking

23:22

to my prescribed three twenty

23:24

minute inbox sessions a day. I was

23:26

glued to my inbox, dealing

23:28

with emails constantly as they came in. If

23:30

I stepped away from a meeting, I was itching

23:32

to get back to my desk to clean up whatever new

23:34

litter was coming in or worse, I

23:36

sat in the meeting clearing emails on my phone.

23:39

Keeping my inbox clear had become something of

23:41

an addiction, and my co workers

23:43

were noticing. One thing that's

23:46

happened is that your zealous

23:49

emailing has kind of been

23:52

eating its way into the rest of your responsibilities

23:56

on those In a meeting, we were talking

23:58

and someone wanted your attention, and you were all, oh,

24:01

I'm sorry, I just had to answer this email.

24:04

That's true. I was answering an email and

24:06

I wasn't listening to what she was saying in the

24:08

meeting. He was right, I

24:10

was getting distracted in meetings by

24:13

my email and that's because by

24:15

the end of the week, I had become

24:17

an inbox zero person. I

24:20

was totally transformed. That

24:22

email flake my colleagues had been complaining

24:24

about she was gone. I

24:27

just love the look of that shiny,

24:29

empty digital space, and I became addicted

24:32

to keeping it that way. I confess

24:34

I even started sneaking in sessions while I was at home

24:36

with my family to do some quick email

24:39

filing and deleting. The

24:41

new me loves email.

24:52

You sound like you really went through a transformation

24:55

to someone who avoided emails to someone who was

24:57

addicted to emails. Would you call

25:00

all the experiment a success? Though, Yeah,

25:03

I would. I did what I set out to do. I

25:05

wiped my inbox constantly, and

25:07

I never left the office with an unaddressed email.

25:10

Would you recommend in box zero to

25:12

other hopeless email cases like yourself.

25:16

I can't unreservedly recommend it.

25:18

It's true that being on top of your email workload

25:20

feels great, and honestly, before

25:23

I took stock of how bad my email habits where

25:25

I didn't realize how much it was making other people's lives

25:27

harder. That I wasn't being responsive. But

25:30

there was no way I could stay on top of

25:32

my emails without looking at my inbox virtually

25:35

all the time, and that took time away

25:37

from doing my real job, which it turns out

25:39

is not professional email checker. With

25:42

so many emails coming in, keeping your inbox

25:44

empty is an uphill battle. And

25:47

it did help to set lots of filters and block

25:49

emails and keep some of that stuff from ever

25:51

making it to my inbox, but it didn't eliminate

25:54

the problem. Yeah,

25:56

so we're back to the original problem of the

25:58

workplace being in dated

26:00

with emails and having this email

26:02

problem. So what's the solution

26:04

to that? Becca? I

26:06

think you and I have to use our platform

26:09

to make a plea to the corporate world. CEOs,

26:13

managers, frontline workers. Please

26:16

please let's all work together to stop sending

26:18

so many emails. Just stop emailing

26:21

when you know a call or chat message or in person

26:23

talk would do the trick. Stop emailing

26:25

just to make it look like you've gotten some work done. And please

26:28

please stop spanning people with mailing lists. It's

26:30

the only way we can manage our workloads.

26:33

And I at least can stop passing

26:35

my coworkers off. That

26:40

is quite the impassioned to

26:43

please, as somebody who also

26:45

has an inundated inbox.

26:47

I would much rather people stop

26:50

emailing me than go on

26:52

the inbox zero journey that you just experienced.

26:55

But seriously, I am. I'm proud of you. You've

26:57

gotten your work email under control. You

27:00

must really feel like a new person. But I'm

27:02

also wondering what about your personal

27:04

email? Have you mastered that too?

27:07

Not even close? Currently on my personal

27:09

Gmail, I have let

27:12

me check stand

27:16

two hundred and forty four unready

27:19

emails. That number

27:21

is stressing me out. You look like you're about

27:24

to die.

27:35

Next week on Works for Me, it's our final

27:37

episode of the season, we're going

27:39

to update you on all of our experiments we've

27:42

done so far and see if we've become productivity

27:44

machines. Thanks for listening to

27:46

the show. If you've tried any of our productivity

27:49

experiments or have unresolved work problems

27:51

you want to talk to us about, leave us a

27:53

voicemail at two and to six one seven

27:56

zero one and we might

27:58

use your voice on the show, or you can tweeted

28:00

us. I'm at Francisca today and I'm

28:03

at RS Greenfield. If you

28:05

like our show, please head on over to Apple podcasts,

28:07

or wherever you listen to rate, review and

28:09

subscribe. This show was produced by two for

28:11

Foreheads and written and reported by me Francisca

28:14

Leavie and me Rebecca Greenfield.

28:17

Find more great Works for Me stuff, including

28:20

illustrations by Jordan Spear, on our show

28:22

page bloomberg dot com slash Works

28:24

for Me and Francesca Levy

28:26

is Bloomberg's head of podcast. We'll

28:28

see you next week. Bye,