0:00

Oh man,

0:02

it's already noon. I

0:04

gotta get going on my story. Hello,

0:07

blank page, All right,

0:09

I can do this. Here we go

0:12

typing a sentence. This

0:18

is hard. I

0:21

wonder what's happening on Twitter. I'll

0:23

just click over for a quick minute breaking

0:28

news. Everything is horrible. No, your

0:30

horror. This is a distraction. Distraction

0:33

gate stop.

0:41

Here's a photo of a panda. Oh

0:43

god, it's three thirty. Why do I

0:45

ever read Twitter? I feel like garbage. I really

0:47

need to get to work. Okay,

0:51

writing some words, this

0:54

isn't so bad. Oh

0:57

a chat message? I want a gossip.

1:00

You know you want to gossip. I

1:02

don't know. I heard the salacious

1:04

thing about this person we talk about all the time.

1:07

Let's dissect it together for the next twenty

1:09

five minutes. It's gonna be juicy and fun.

1:12

And we'll also talk about work a little bit, so you can justify

1:15

spending your time chatting with me. Okay,

1:19

that was fun. That comes is work? Right. While

1:21

I'm here, I might as well click over to

1:24

my team's group chat. We're working

1:26

on a big project. I bet there are important

1:28

updates for me in there, dancing.

1:39

I feel like I'm forgetting something,

1:43

something important. Oh

1:46

god, my story and it's almost

1:48

four I just need to focus. I'm

1:50

so bad at concentrating on one task,

1:53

even when I know it needs to get done as soon

1:55

as possible. But I'm gonna get serious

1:57

now. I'm gonna sit down and

2:00

write. But I wonder what's

2:02

happening on Facebook.

2:15

Welcome to Works for Me, the show where

2:17

we try to fix our workplace problems

2:19

to find out what strategies will work for

2:21

you. I'm Francesco Levi and I'm

2:23

Rebecca Greenfield. This

2:26

week, it's Beca's turn to take us

2:28

on a productivity journey. Becca,

2:31

what is the problem you're trying to solve

2:33

this week? As you heard in that dramatic

2:35

reenactment at the top of the show,

2:38

I cannot focus on my work.

2:40

I get distracted by Twitter or the Internet

2:43

or my email or chat very

2:45

easily. And it feels like I can never

2:48

sit down and complete a task without

2:50

an interruption. How is that possible?

2:53

I know that you can. You're capable of getting things done.

2:55

You get things done all the time. In fact,

2:57

I think you're like a particularly productive

3:00

person. Like I know people who

3:02

can't focus, and you're nowhere

3:05

on that list. Okay, yeah, that

3:07

is, this is what people say to me. So

3:09

when I told Danny, my boyfriend, that I wanted

3:11

to work on my focus for our next experiment,

3:14

he had the exact same reaction as you did.

3:16

But as I explained to him, getting

3:18

things done is different than

3:20

being focused on the things you're doing.

3:24

I don't really understand why

3:27

you think you need to focus better, because

3:32

you are way more efficient than anyone

3:35

I know. You'll be like, all

3:38

I did was chat all day and then I wrote these

3:40

four stories. I'm

3:42

like, what, I've

3:45

never written four stars in one day. And also,

3:47

I don't think we can play this from my employer

3:49

because I'm not g chatting all day.

3:54

You're not. You are

3:57

working while chatting me. Okay,

4:01

well, I would like to not

4:03

have that habit. I would like to work

4:07

really focused and then when I'm done, reward

4:09

myself with a G chat and then

4:12

be the best version of myself. Okay,

4:15

So you're not liking the experience you're

4:17

having while you're getting stuff done. I do

4:19

not like the experience, and this is a

4:21

common problem that I guess you have. Also,

4:24

um, I'm far from the only person who can't

4:26

focus. British Telecom found that

4:28

people check their phones every twelve

4:30

minutes, so yeah,

4:32

this is something a lot of people can relate to. Yeah,

4:35

I definitely. I mean, my

4:37

phone just flashed. There's like a new feature where it

4:39

shows you how much screen time, and

4:41

my just was like an unwelcome

4:44

push notification about my screen

4:46

time. And I was shocked and horrified

4:49

at just like the amount of time staring at my phone, because I

4:51

know I'm not most of the time, I'm not working when

4:53

I'm staring at my phone. So I've done

4:55

on a phone. Yeah, okay,

4:58

so your focus is a problem apparently,

5:01

and you wanted to fix it. How so

5:04

I didn't really know how. I looked some

5:06

stuff up online, and there are all of

5:08

these brain training websites, but they didn't

5:10

really get at what I wanted. Like,

5:12

I didn't want to get better brain games. I wanted

5:14

to get better at focusing on my work. So

5:17

I went out and found a super

5:20

concentrator, the simone

5:22

Biles of Concentrating. If you will,

5:24

it's not unusual for me to do. I can do a five

5:27

six hour, seven hour day where

5:29

I'm just working on one thing. That's Cal

5:31

Newport. He's a computer scientist at

5:33

Georgetown university. He also happens

5:35

to be very good at concentrating. He

5:38

even wrote a book about it. It's called Deep

5:40

Work Rules for Focused Success

5:42

in a Distracted World. Cal

5:44

got interested in concentrating when he started

5:46

looking into how people do their jobs.

5:49

He quickly realized that the answer to that

5:51

was not very well. He

5:53

found that the workplace is a very distracting

5:56

place, and people like us have convinced

5:58

ourselves that engaging in the distractions

6:00

like answering emails and slack messages

6:03

is part of our jobs. But he

6:06

says, it's just not. I

6:08

don't think we're properly valuing uh,

6:11

concentration, because it's easy to say,

6:13

you know what, I'm busy, I'm communicating, a

6:15

lot of messages are moving, I'm on messenger,

6:17

I'm on my phone, I'm active a lot. So I

6:20

must be productive. I must be doing something

6:22

something right. I must be producing value. But I

6:24

think when you look a little bit closer, you realize

6:27

actually it's the undistracted, concentrated

6:29

work that is more valuable to the bottom

6:31

line in many different positions, in

6:33

many different fields. Kel

6:36

on the other hand, doesn't operate like this

6:38

at all. In his work life. He

6:41

gets all of his work done during the hours of nine

6:43

to five. He doesn't use social media,

6:45

he ignores his inbox. He's disciplined,

6:48

so he realized that he had a lot to teach

6:50

sad distracted sacks like me. The

6:53

good news is that, according to cal

6:55

most people don't even know how much

6:58

they can really focus because

7:00

as they're not even trying well.

7:02

I think physical fitness is a

7:04

good analogy for thinking about this. A

7:07

lot of people incorrectly think

7:09

about the ability to focus as something like

7:11

a habit, like flossing their teeth, something they know how

7:13

to do. It's just a matter of doing it more often. That's

7:16

not actually the case. If you're not actually

7:18

training your mind to be good at sustained

7:20

concentration, you're actually not going to get nearly

7:23

as much value out of your concentration

7:25

sessions. So this is not about small tweaks around

7:27

the edges. Really embracing

7:29

focus as a core skill in your job and

7:31

something that you practice and protect can have

7:33

massive changes to the amount

7:35

of things you're able to produce in the quality level of those

7:38

things. Cow says that you have

7:40

to work out the concentration

7:42

muscles in your brain, and

7:44

by working them out you'll get better

7:46

at using them. So

7:49

everyone's trying to multitask because they feel

7:51

obligated to. But multitasking is

7:54

the destruction of your work, and

7:56

you really need to concentrate. And apparently

7:59

concentrating is something

8:01

that you have to

8:03

use it or lose it, right, Yeah, I find

8:05

this very encouraging. Well,

8:17

so what are you going to do to

8:19

improve your concentration? I

8:22

Am going to work out my brain in an

8:24

attempt to learn how to concentrate better. Cal

8:27

told me about this interval training exercise

8:30

where you sit down with a timer and do twenty

8:32

minutes of work focusing on a single

8:34

difficult task. If I can get

8:37

through twenty minutes a few times without distraction,

8:39

I can increase the time by ten minutes. And

8:41

if I get through that, increase it another ten minutes,

8:44

and so on. Cal also talked

8:46

about how it helps to have a ritual before

8:48

you start doing focused work, like

8:51

he always takes a walk to get coffee

8:53

before getting down to work. So

8:55

I'm going to walk around the news room and put on music

8:57

without words to get in the zone. I'll

8:59

do all of this for a week. Like

9:02

this, you have like a little workout

9:04

plan from your personal trainer, except

9:06

it's for your brain, not your body muscles.

9:09

But how will you know if you have succeeded. So

9:12

I am not very confident

9:15

in my focus ability really

9:18

at all. Like twenty minutes of doing

9:20

one thing uninterrupted sounds

9:22

completely impossible to me. Like

9:25

when I'm writing a story, I cannot not

9:28

click over to something or

9:30

some other tab, Like I'm writing

9:32

one sentence and I need to distract myself.

9:35

So I think I'm going to suck at this. But that

9:37

said, I want to be able to do thirty

9:39

minutes of uninterrupted focused

9:42

time by the end of my experiment. I'm

9:58

starting off the experiment by

10:00

doing the ritual, which is walking

10:02

around the newsroom once before

10:05

I get started. So that's what I'm doing. Look,

10:08

I'm like a crazy person talking to this microphone.

10:11

This was me on my first day, completing

10:13

my first ritual lap around the office.

10:16

Okay, back at my desk, going

10:19

to find

10:23

my playlist. I found. I found this playlist

10:25

called Concentrate at work on

10:27

Spotify. Going

10:30

to set a timer or

10:32

queue up a timer twenty minutes

10:36

and I have a story that I'm working on. I'm gonna

10:38

work on that and

10:41

ready set good

10:46

the playlist had a lot of technobis.

10:51

I sat down to work on my story and it

10:54

wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I

10:56

was trying really hard to not

10:58

look at distracting things, and it

11:00

was working. But soon enough

11:03

I realized that I wasn't exactly

11:05

concentrating on my work either. I

11:09

have five minutes left. I

11:12

think I'm basically

11:14

sitting here staring at the page and not concentrating

11:17

thinking about other things. I'm

11:20

gonna call this I

11:22

fail. Well, this gets into like

11:24

a a tricky area, right,

11:27

because you thought you'd have to just

11:29

eliminate your distractions, but then you

11:31

find ways to distract yourself with your own mind,

11:34

even if you're not actually like looking at Twitter

11:36

or doing whatever else would take you away from

11:39

being in your word document. Yeah, my brain was

11:41

distracting itself fine enough on its own.

11:43

Did not need the two meets. But

11:45

I did decide to try it again that day.

11:48

Okay, take two.

11:51

Gotta in my ritual again. So

11:53

I did my ritual again and walked around the news

11:56

room. Then I sat down to do my work,

11:58

and again my brain was fighting

12:01

the concentration. I was reading

12:03

a story and my eyes were jumping all over

12:05

the page, just looking for something else

12:07

to do. But if that weren't bad enough,

12:10

then something out of my control happened.

12:14

Becca if Ellen

12:16

was a woman, yeah, is

12:19

that the subjects lite? What if he was O?

12:21

Great technicallymatically,

12:27

but it's a subject time,

12:29

so I think stuff.

12:33

Okay. So, as you saw, I got interrupted by

12:36

my boss asking me a question. That's I

12:38

can't X out her window. She

12:40

just talked to me. Okay, that's over.

12:44

Timer is up. Okay, I'm done with this experiment

12:47

right now. Too much to do. Well,

12:49

there's a wrench that got thrown into your plan. Yeah,

12:52

you we work in an open office, like not

12:55

every interruption is a self imposed

12:57

interruption like the internet. It's

13:00

I'm also, this was your boss talking

13:02

to you, right, so it was hardly somebody you

13:04

could ignore or just be like, excuse me,

13:06

I'm concentrating right now doing an experiment

13:08

for a podcast to improve myself. Yeah. No,

13:11

I couldn't do that. And cal

13:13

had warned me about the stuff about my brain

13:15

fighting it, but he didn't really warn me about

13:18

the realities of working in a modern open

13:20

office and how that could interfere with my experience.

13:24

So I tried one more time on that first day,

13:26

and I failed yet again.

13:29

Fifty seconds left and I clicked away

13:34

man. So

13:38

that not a

13:40

very successful first day

13:42

of focusing. Huh. No, my

13:45

first day was a bust. It sucked.

13:48

I failed like hard every

13:50

single time, and I was really

13:52

feeling bad, really

13:54

bad about myself. But I had to keep

13:57

going with the experiment. So on

13:59

day two I soldiered

14:01

on and after the break, we'll

14:03

see how I did. After

14:15

my day of failures, on day

14:17

two, I decided that the playlist was

14:19

the reason for my failed first day. I

14:22

really hated the music. I am just really

14:24

not into techno. It felt like being

14:26

inside and urban outfitters or a

14:29

Burning Man themed co working space.

14:32

It was not for me. I don't alienate

14:35

our techno loving listeners. Sorry,

14:37

it's just awesome for me. But I found

14:39

something I liked better called chill

14:42

lo fi steady beats. I

14:45

don't have to play for you, but I can if you want, I can imagine

14:47

what it sounds like. I'll ever every one

14:49

second. That's

14:55

how a creepy Okay,

14:58

well that's that sounds like haunted music

15:01

box in the haunted house. But whatever

15:04

works for you, sleepy

15:10

wow, right, well,

15:13

to me, it's neither sleepy nor

15:16

creepy. I like it. And

15:19

with this new playlist in hand, I did

15:21

my walk around the newsroom ritual again.

15:24

Can I just point out that, like, it's

15:27

kind of funny that every single time you

15:29

decide you're going to get ready to focus in a given

15:31

day, you now have to get up

15:33

and walk around. It's so much

15:35

walk. I guess you're getting your

15:38

steps in, that's right. So

15:40

I walked around the newsroom again, and

15:42

then I settled into another focus

15:44

session. Need to close

15:50

tab? Wasn't my email? Was

15:53

that? Twitter? Minimized

15:55

chat, setting my timer, and

15:59

here we go. That day, I was

16:01

working on preparing for a big interview

16:03

I had coming up. I was researching the

16:05

people I was interviewing and then writing a list

16:08

of questions to ask them. It

16:10

was feeling pretty good, and then before

16:12

I knew it, time was up. I

16:15

did it. I successfully focus

16:18

for twenty minutes straight, no interruptions.

16:21

Wait, already on your second day?

16:23

Yeah that's awesome, considering you

16:26

felt like you could

16:28

never achieve focusing for more

16:30

than one sentence of writing at a time. Yeah,

16:32

it was. If I dare say, I'm

16:34

miraculous, I felt I felt great, and

16:37

so I thought maybe the playlist was

16:39

the problem. But then came

16:42

my next try and I

16:44

failed. So wait, the playlist wasn't

16:46

the problem. No, I mean I think

16:48

it helped. I think you have to make your environment

16:51

as optimal as you possibly can, Like

16:53

I can't escape from our open office, but at least I don't

16:55

have to torture my ears with techno music.

16:58

But after control for that, I

17:01

realized that the culprit the reason

17:03

I was still struggling was the type of work

17:05

I was doing. So cal talked

17:08

about two kinds of work. There's

17:10

deep work and there's shallow work. Shallow

17:13

work has to happen in order for just an organization

17:15

to function, but deep work has to happen if you actually

17:17

want to advance your organization or advance your

17:19

career. Shallow work is necessary. Deep

17:21

work pays to bills. Shallow work

17:24

is the stuff we have to do to function in the workplace,

17:26

like checking emails, attending meanings,

17:29

making lists. And deep work

17:31

is the meat of your job, which in my world

17:34

is reporting and writing. And the deeper

17:36

the work, the harder it is to focus on.

17:39

Yeah, deep and shallow is a really apt analogy

17:41

for that because I look at like the

17:44

shallow work, the stuff that you can take

17:46

off your list, and it's just basically easy, but it

17:48

makes you happy when you actually get around to getting

17:51

it done, like that feels so good, But it's not. It's

17:53

not hard. So if you just set aside the time for it and commit

17:55

to doing it, you can do it. But the deep work,

17:57

it is like staring into an

18:00

abyss, Like you're just like, I

18:02

have to make something out of nothing. I have to write

18:04

a story, or I have to write a script for a podcast.

18:07

I just got shells. It's it's so hard to just

18:09

stare into the abyss and it's just the ugly

18:12

depths. But I also

18:14

think that there's the spectrum of work

18:16

in between, stuff that contributes

18:19

to deep work, but isn't actually that deep.

18:21

It's like deep adjacent. So for

18:23

me, that's researching and writing up questions

18:26

for an interview, right, you actually have to think about

18:28

that, right, it's not like writing an email. But

18:30

it's not like writing a story either, And that's

18:32

why I think I got through that focus session because

18:35

it was this medium

18:37

work adjacent that's right,

18:39

So it's not as hard as writing a story. So

18:42

I zoomed right through it. But

18:44

so the deep work. Does CAL have any

18:46

suggestions for how to get through the deep work? Yes,

18:49

but it's not a satisfying answer. It's

18:51

not just change your playlist, he said. I

18:53

had to keep practicing. So I just

18:56

kept trying and failing and trying

18:58

and failing again. But then eventually,

19:01

on day four, sorry

19:06

if you did it, I

19:09

got through twenty minutes and it wasn't a fluke. I'd

19:11

broken through some wall and kept succeeding, and

19:14

by day five I was comfortably getting

19:16

through twenty minutes. So I decided

19:18

to go for the holy grail thirty

19:21

minutes. I've

19:25

been training for this moment all week. I

19:28

get up from my desk to walk around the room

19:30

to get in the optimal mindset.

19:32

After a brisk clock I'm feeling good. I

19:35

sit down, put in my earbuds and switch

19:38

on chillow by study beats.

19:40

My brain feels primed. I

19:43

set my timer and then I

19:45

get to work on a story. I'm

19:47

in the zone, writing complete sentences

19:49

about taking a break. I think about

19:51

checking Twitter, but I tell myself, no, stay

19:54

strong, and before I know it, okay,

20:00

I didn't the thirty minutes. It was torture and they did it.

20:04

There you're okay, and I

20:06

can procrastinate throw Wow,

20:11

wow, thirty minutes the holy

20:13

grill, you hit your gold,

20:16

I know. And it really

20:19

felt amazing. And

20:21

I feel so freaking

20:24

good, like it's just

20:27

doing thirty minutes of writing where

20:30

you just get through it, you

20:32

focus. I feel like a

20:34

queen. I know. I know this sounds

20:37

like I'm over

20:39

exaggerating, but it really felt good. I

20:43

mean, usually it's so hard

20:45

for me to get stuff done, like three pm on

20:49

any day, and wow,

20:52

this is crazy. I feel so good, Like

20:55

my brain felt different, I swear,

20:58

and from then on I was untouchable.

21:01

I did thirty minute blocks of focus work

21:03

for the rest of the week, no problem.

21:06

I was getting so good at thirty minutes that

21:08

on my last day, day seven,

21:11

I decided to try for forty

21:14

minutes. WHOA, we

21:17

didn't. Honestly,

21:19

it was hard, um, but

21:24

I kind of what done. Finished

21:27

one task, started another. Honestly,

21:30

feel like I could do more time. Oh

21:36

from zero a zero congratulations,

21:42

Becca, thank you you really

21:46

triumphed. Yeah, it

21:49

felt amazing, as not to restate

21:51

the point, but it felt amazing. It feels

21:54

amazing. I had been worried

21:56

that it would be harder for me to get through the time when

21:58

I had hard work like writing to do, But it wasn't.

22:01

I not only wrote my story, but

22:04

I liked it. It got addictive. I

22:06

wanted more and more. Cal are

22:08

focus afficionado predicted

22:11

that that would happen if you do this pretty

22:13

aggressively for a week. By the end of the week, you'll feel

22:16

you know, this is not only a little bit easier, but my

22:18

work feels a little bit different. I feel like I'm achieving

22:20

a new level of concentration on producing sharper

22:23

words or more words per minute or whatever the metric

22:25

is, but that I'm better

22:27

at concentrating than I was. The

22:29

other feeling you should be looking for is also the

22:32

sort of an emergent attraction to concentration

22:35

is something that you start to crave more. So

22:38

many parallels with exercise, right like

22:41

you, It takes discipline, you have to work

22:43

out your muscles, and then when you do it, you feel really

22:45

good, and then you get kind of predicted to it. I'm

22:48

curious, do you think your work were sharper like did

22:50

the writing you did during those concentrated

22:52

times actually turn out better. So it's

22:54

very hard to measure this, but it was during a time

22:56

of intense productivity for me. It was like

22:58

a crazy couple of weeks I had there.

23:01

Also, the story I wrote one of those

23:03

times was a story that this

23:06

does not happen often. But my editor was

23:08

like, oh, this is really good, and

23:11

so I don't know, you know, you can't really

23:13

measure it, but yes,

23:17

I guess. Well,

23:29

it definitely sounds like you succeeded at your experiment,

23:32

right, you sailed past that thirty minute

23:34

goal. Yeah,

23:36

I did. I did it. After

23:39

my week long experiment. I was an enthusiastic

23:41

focus supporter. I am

23:43

so into this and I hope

23:46

I can keep doing it. It feels so good

23:48

to just sit down and do work. And I

23:51

also was really scared that when I got to

23:53

writing stories, because writing it's so hard

23:56

and torturous, and you want to just like write a

23:58

sentence, look at Twitter, write a sentence,

24:01

check your email. That that would be so hard. But when

24:04

I was doing the concentrating thing, it just wasn't

24:06

it. Just I think you

24:08

psych yourself out, but you can sit

24:10

down and write a story and yeah, it's not perfect, but you

24:13

can do it, So that was awesome. The downsides

24:16

I think are when you come back, you

24:18

feel like you can just go

24:21

crazy not focusing.

24:24

Yeah, I wonder if if you don't

24:26

keep this up, it goes

24:28

back to being just as hard. If the exercise

24:30

analogy holds, then it would, right.

24:33

Yeah, I read somewhere about exercise like if you don't

24:35

do it for two days, you're back to your

24:37

base. So maybe it's the same for brain,

24:39

Like I can't I got to

24:41

go back to twenty minutes and not being able to do it.

24:44

But you're addicted to it at this point, so

24:46

it shouldn't be a problem. Let's just keep doing these sessions

24:48

focusing forever um.

24:51

But yeah, I think there are a couple of caveats, Like

24:53

I said you

24:55

do, there's like still a lot of procrastination evolved,

24:57

like those does not have anything to be procrastinate,

25:00

and like it took me a long time sometimes to get

25:02

to the focus session. And I think you in a

25:04

way procrastinate more before and after

25:06

because you are anticipating

25:09

all of your focus. You're like, I gotta get into my internet

25:11

time now like a crazy person. And

25:14

then I also think like not everyone can

25:17

do this if you have a type of job where you can't

25:19

shut the world out for chunks of time at the day. But

25:21

I think a lot of people think their job is like that,

25:24

but it's not. They think that they can't

25:27

shut the world up if they can, like

25:29

I think a lot of people can take twenty minutes and

25:31

not answer emails. Yeah,

25:34

and presumably if your job really is one

25:36

of those jobs that you can't shut out the world,

25:38

like like

25:40

you're an air traffic controller, then

25:43

don't do that. By not shutting out the world, you're

25:45

actually doing your job, So you would still feel

25:47

accomplished even if you're just like listening

25:49

to all the inputs and you know,

25:51

taking in lots of outside feedback, because

25:53

that's still good work. Like you

25:56

never would need to check Twitter. You

25:58

might need to respond to an but you're right, probably

26:01

not as quickly as you think. So I

26:03

really strongly suggest people try this. UM.

26:07

And the big lesson that I'm taking from

26:09

this is I thought of myself as somebody who thrived

26:11

in the chaos, like I'd optimized

26:13

working with distractions, and

26:16

now I know that they're I don't have to do that, Like

26:18

there's a better way, and it not only helps

26:21

me get work done, but it really made me feel

26:23

a lot better. It's like, I don't

26:25

want to say there's a simple trick that

26:27

will turn you into some superhuman

26:29

worker, but sometimes you just have

26:31

to like try something different and

26:34

you'll feel less stuck. Um.

26:46

Next time on Works for Me, Francesca

26:48

takes on the dreaded team meeting.

26:52

Oh, did anyone have any general announcements?

26:55

Um ered.

26:58

Thanks for listening to another episode of Works

27:00

for Me. If you like this show, please

27:03

go over to Apple Podcasts and

27:06

take a second to rate review, and of

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course subscribe to our show and

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tell your friends, Tell all your

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friends or your best friend at

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least. You can also find all

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of our shows and are very cool illustrations

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on Bloomberg dot com slash quirks

27:22

for Me. Are there any problems

27:24

in your work life that you're dying to fix?

27:27

We would love to hear about them. Call us

27:29

and leave us a voicemail at two one to six

27:32

one seven zero and

27:34

we might use it on the air, Or you can

27:36

tweet at us I'm at Francesca

27:38

today and I'm at RZ Greenfield.

27:41

This show was hosted and recorded by me Becca

27:44

Greenfield and me Francesca Leavie.

27:47

This show was produced by Tobrah Foreheads. Jordan's

27:50

Spear did the illustrations on our show page,

27:52

and we want to give us special things to Ebban

27:54

Noby Williams, Liz Smith and Erica

27:57

Parpinello. Francesca Leavy is Bloomberg's

27:59

head of Hot. How see you next week. Bye,