0:00

Welcome to Worst Year Ever, A production

0:02

of I Heart Radio Together

0:13

Everything, so don't don't.

0:20

Oh boy, what a great year it

0:22

is. It's the best year that was

0:24

ever a terrible year. Let's add

0:26

more months, show more months for

0:28

the year, four months

0:30

for the year. I'm almost

0:34

over. We're still remember

0:38

um. Guys, guys, Hello,

0:41

welcome back to worst year ever. As we just said, and that

0:43

cute, nice, smart, brilliant

0:45

voice that you just heard was our

0:47

guest dark Come

0:50

on, Hallia,

0:53

Jane, Hi, Hi,

0:56

Hello, gorgeous is how

0:59

are you doing today? Talia? How are your

1:01

injuries? They are

1:04

bruising, but the swelling has gone

1:06

down. Call that progress.

1:09

That progress, listeners.

1:11

If you're not aware, there was a rally

1:14

in d c Um

1:16

that was supportive of both the president and

1:18

the concept of the coronavirus spreading

1:20

unchecked. Um. It was very,

1:22

very big on both of those things. A

1:25

lot of proud boys showed up, a lot

1:27

of members of white supremacist

1:29

militias like American Guard showed

1:31

up, UM and they

1:34

beat the ship out of a bunch of people in the streets. And

1:36

one of the people that they assaulted was

1:38

our friend and uh, courageous

1:41

freelance reporter Talia Jane.

1:44

Yeah, and I'm good. I

1:46

was actually I originally was thinking

1:48

that he must have not hit me very

1:50

hard because I didn't go down. But

1:52

then I was actually like looking at the injuries

1:55

and like, I have some stuff on my nose

1:57

and like beside my nose and all this stuff

2:00

was really fucked up for a couple of days, and I realized

2:02

he really did hit me hard. I just know

2:04

how to take a punch apparently. Well,

2:06

also, there's so much going on in that moment, I would

2:09

imagine, and the shock of it too.

2:12

I can guarantee your adrenaline was flowing

2:14

kind of crazy there. I was honestly

2:16

chilling. Like if you if

2:18

you look at the footage of me, I'm literally I'm

2:21

surrounded by people brawling and I'm just

2:23

kind of like dupeid like just standing

2:26

and filming everything a chilling

2:29

and then this guy comes out of nowhere and

2:32

nails me like right below

2:34

the jaw, right below my ear, which

2:36

is like one of the three like Chao spots.

2:40

And you see me like go down

2:43

and then I come back up, and I'm

2:45

immediately just like yo, girl,

2:51

good job taking that. But also, as you're

2:53

describing this and we're laughing. That just sickened

2:56

me to hear that happened to you, Like, yeah,

2:59

honestly, I didn't think that he had

3:01

targeted me until I saw footage and was

3:03

like, oh, that's cool. Do

3:06

you know what they struck you with? Because it, I

3:08

mean, he had to have at least head. I'm not sure if there was something

3:10

in his hands. The video is unclear, but he had to

3:12

have at least had like a ring or something on to

3:14

slash your face like that. Yeah, there

3:16

had to have been something either in

3:18

his hands or on his fingers,

3:21

because there's there's a still

3:23

that I saw with his hand open as

3:25

he's like swatting my phone down. So

3:28

I don't know that he had anything in his hand,

3:30

but I couldn't clearly see if he had anything

3:32

on his fingers. But yeah, I had,

3:35

Like I have, um

3:37

some puncture wounds and

3:40

scratches and gashes like behind

3:42

my ear and on my neck, as

3:44

well as the gash on my ear, which contributed

3:47

to the most amount of, uh,

3:50

the injury. I'm trying not to be too graphics.

3:53

I don't want to squee out like anybody.

3:55

Yeah, no, it's fine, but yeah,

3:58

it seems like he either

4:00

had something on his fingers

4:02

or in his hand, no idea.

4:05

Yeah, and I feel pretty confident saying

4:08

it seems like that dude was likely

4:11

proud boy, shall we say? Yeah,

4:13

so I have I have a pretty m

4:15

I have a pretty solid idea on him. And the

4:17

person that I did is a proud boy

4:20

and he's a member of the American Guard. He's a president

4:22

of the Ohio chapter of the American Good.

4:25

Oh, you got hit by a real

4:27

solid one, lucky,

4:31

and I still didn't fall. So yeah,

4:36

I think you think you're so fucking hot.

4:38

Fascists can't even knock down tally.

4:40

I mean, they're absolutely I'm five by

4:43

the way, I'm five ft tall. This

4:45

guy had clear space to

4:48

just wail on me. And

4:51

I didn't go down, like my feet stayed where

4:53

they were, yeh. And my

4:55

phone didn't even get sucked up. They got thrown out of

4:57

my hand and it was fine.

5:00

Yeah, that's why they tend to go when they commit

5:02

assault. Most of them tend to go like five

5:05

or so to one. Um,

5:07

because they're all they're all actually a bunch

5:09

of big babies. That's uh,

5:11

that's a tactic that I noticed reviewing

5:14

the footage, it was one

5:16

person would start wailing on someone and

5:18

then multiple people would come and surround

5:20

them, and so

5:23

when he punched me, um,

5:26

you see people start to surround me and

5:28

that's when I started getting like jostled around and

5:30

they started like pulling and pushing me, and I

5:33

was just like, yo, I'm pressed. Like

5:35

I wasn't fighting back. I was just like, what is

5:38

happening? And then that's when

5:40

place came through and they sort of backed off.

5:43

Um. But it was definitely it

5:46

was bizarre because in the moment, I thought I had just

5:48

gotten elbowed in the head really hard

5:51

as people were moving past me, and

5:53

that's why I was getting pushed around and shoved.

5:56

And then looking at the footage, it's clear

5:58

that he went after or me and

6:00

then they followed suit and then

6:02

they saw I was pressed and went oh shit. Um.

6:07

So uh, If anyone's interested

6:10

in learning how the Proud Boys fight, I guess

6:12

that's a pretty basic summary. They

6:15

also, once they got someone down,

6:18

they might have kicked them a little bit, but for the

6:20

most part they would kind of back off and move on to someone

6:22

else, like their their goal was

6:24

evidently to um

6:27

get people down. And then once they were down,

6:30

they move on. See that's a

6:32

bit different, you know. And when we had our the

6:34

big street fight in Portland where I got injured,

6:36

the ratio was the same where they would

6:38

only really charge out if they felt like they

6:40

could get four or five people you know on

6:42

each person. Um, But they

6:44

did a lot of beating people on the ground.

6:47

Um that was like the the overwhelming

6:49

tactic is once they got someone on the ground, try to

6:51

injure them as badly as they could before being

6:54

forced back. But like, the thing

6:56

that is the same, I guess is that in

6:58

both cases they they

7:01

really didn't want to get into fair fights. They

7:03

did not want to um

7:05

do a one on one sort of thing like

7:07

they and as soon as the numbers, as soon

7:10

as like the people opposing them out numbered

7:12

them, um, they all huddled together

7:14

in a shield line and they broke and ran. As soon

7:16

as you know, things got scary for them because

7:18

again they're not like the thing

7:20

that's scary about them is when they're

7:22

unopposed, Like that's what actually makes

7:25

them dangerous. That's why it was so frustrating

7:27

to see, you know, George de Kay and

7:29

other liberals be like, don't come

7:31

out to counter protest, you know, the MAGA

7:33

march, because that's the thing that actually

7:36

makes them less dangerous is having anything

7:38

close to number of parody or being outnumbered.

7:41

Then they backed the hell off because they don't want

7:43

to actually have a real fight. Yeah,

7:46

that was that was what was probably

7:48

the most discouraging

7:51

is when I showed up in the afternoon, Um,

7:54

there were obviously

7:56

thousands of maga's on one

7:58

side and maybe three hundred anti

8:01

fascists on the other. And then

8:03

when they marched over to BLM Plaza. By

8:05

the time, uh,

8:08

like the police had split

8:13

the groups up, and like the

8:15

anti fascist groups, they had kettled

8:17

and split people up, they had done a couple of rests,

8:19

they pepper sprayed the crowd, So the

8:21

numbers had then significantly. By

8:23

the time the Proud Boys turned that corner

8:26

and saw the anti

8:29

fascists, there were only ever

8:31

eight shields. Um

8:35

there was by that time. I

8:38

don't believe there was any bike support. Um.

8:41

There were you know, medics and press and everything,

8:43

but I would say that probably we

8:46

were outnumbered. It was

8:48

it had to have been something like two Proud

8:50

Boys too, like eight

8:54

anti fascists. And when

8:57

I was and and to your point

8:59

about like go and counter protest. When

9:02

I made the decision to go, I

9:04

connected with um, some comrades

9:07

who are who were interested, and we

9:10

originally we're going to have something like two carful

9:13

two cars full of people, and

9:16

um by the time it all shook

9:18

out and people get really scared about you

9:20

know, the potential for extreme violence.

9:23

Uh, it was me and two other people. Wow.

9:26

Um And apparently

9:30

that had been the case Uh

9:33

in d C. Like the people

9:35

on the ground there were saying we need people to come

9:37

through, we need people from other cities to

9:39

show up and support and

9:42

stand with us, and people didn't.

9:45

And it's the lesson

9:47

is obviously, like when they say we need

9:49

everybody out, that is not the time

9:52

to be like, oh, don't fight them, just ignore

9:54

them. They'll go away, Like it's some kid

9:56

at school who's bullying you or whatever.

9:59

Like these are ashists who are emboldened

10:02

by a lack of counter

10:05

protesting, who when

10:07

there's no one else on the ground, they're like,

10:09

hell, yeah, we have the right to do

10:11

whatever we want because this is our space.

10:15

Yeah. There are a lot of

10:18

valid critiques of of you

10:20

know, quote unquote Antifa, of anti fascists

10:22

of individual things that have been done by different anti

10:24

fascists, collectives and individuals

10:26

over the couple of years. But the

10:28

thing that there absolutely

10:31

objectively right about is

10:33

that if you don't confront

10:35

these people physically, they

10:38

they just hurt folks because that's what

10:40

they're there to do. Like, if

10:42

you actually want there to be less violence,

10:44

overwhelmed them in the streets and they will stop

10:47

coming out and people will stop getting hurt. Even

10:49

if it was just a bunch of liberals with

10:52

like Biden Harris flags and hats

10:55

and stuff, if they had shown up, and if

10:57

they had held the space at BLM Plaza

10:59

when the Proud Boys and the Magas

11:01

rolled through in their drunken like

11:04

rampage um,

11:06

they it would not have gotten

11:09

to the point that it was at because they would have seen

11:11

a huge amount of people,

11:14

and instead they saw a very small

11:16

smattering of people and they were like, all right, let's

11:18

fucking go. So

11:20

I'm curious you said that. You know, the police

11:23

started kettling the anti fascists,

11:25

and you know, all the stuff led to dwindling numbers,

11:27

but they didn't need tear guessing they

11:29

weren't doing anything or

11:31

the other side. No. Um.

11:34

There were multiple instances in the afternoon

11:37

when anti fascists were on one side of the barricade.

11:40

Um, they had a police line of

11:43

Capitol Hill police and then

11:45

they had a second police line of

11:48

Metropolitan police with

11:50

riot shields facing the

11:53

anti fascists and not the

11:55

fifty thousand maga's

11:58

leaning on the barricade and

12:01

screaming over it. And then um,

12:04

later that night, when the Proud Boys

12:06

rolled up on BLM

12:08

Plaza UM, there were

12:10

no cops except for maybe two white

12:12

shirts just kind of standing by.

12:15

UM. And it wasn't until the brawl had been

12:17

going for a couple of minutes that bike police

12:20

rolled through and established a barricade. How

12:23

this happens, Yeah, at which point when

12:25

they established a barricade, they

12:27

used the bike police to to push

12:30

the Proud Boys back, and then they

12:32

had riot cops come and form a line on the

12:34

other side, facing the

12:37

smattering of anti fascists

12:39

who were on the other side, and like I saw them

12:41

like expanding, expanding

12:44

their batons, like ready to crack

12:46

some heads. Um.

12:49

But it was it was very weird, like watching

12:51

how the police moved that night. It

12:53

was they were splitting up anti fascists

12:56

and for being in the street allegedly

12:59

for potentially slashing

13:01

tires on a car that was parked on the street. And

13:04

that's when they started pepper spraying and kettling.

13:06

Um. They kept on barricading people

13:09

on different sides of the

13:11

streets from like just the anti fascists,

13:14

UM. And then once

13:18

the anti fascists met with the

13:20

Proud Boys, they were nowhere to be found,

13:23

but they had followed earlier

13:25

in the night. They were following the anti fascists

13:28

on bikes. They had flash bangs, which

13:30

I also fully just thought was fireworks,

13:33

Like nobody nobody even noticed.

13:35

They were just like, oh, it must be fireworks. Yeah,

13:38

they're only startling when

13:40

they're new to you, and they're not new

13:43

to anybody at this point. So

13:45

so it was like they had eyes

13:48

on the group the whole night. They were they

13:50

were steadily breaking up the group

13:53

and sinning the numbers they had

13:55

pepper sprayed into the crowd. They arrested

13:57

people, um,

13:59

and so the anti fascist numbers had dwindled

14:02

significantly. And then

14:05

when the Proud Boys rolled through, the anti fascists

14:07

weren't moving. We were everyone was positioned

14:10

and just kind of like hanging out at

14:12

BLM plaza. Um,

14:15

So it's bizarre that the cops weren't there and

14:17

that Um

14:20

basically it's it's it's almost like they

14:22

just let this happen, um,

14:25

knowing that on

14:27

one side was a

14:29

horde of drunken um

14:35

like fr yeah,

14:38

with like glass bottles which they like

14:40

through um

14:44

uh and you know, potentially

14:47

apparently armed and just

14:49

looking to fight and brawl. Um.

14:54

It's just it if

14:56

ever, you were of

14:58

the mindset that the pests are

15:00

neutral and that they

15:06

you know, we'll will defend people against

15:09

things on either side or whatever, you

15:11

know, being in a situation like that where

15:13

there are no cops around and they've

15:15

spent the previous like the earlier

15:17

parts of the day just assaulting

15:21

and arresting one side

15:23

while leaving the other side to do whatever

15:26

the funk they wanted like that, that's

15:28

something like that makes it so clear where

15:30

the biases and how and

15:34

how evident it is that, Uh,

15:37

the alt right has leaned really

15:40

hard into back the blue um

15:43

almost on the expectation

15:46

that if they applaud and

15:48

thank cops, then those

15:51

cops won't do anything

15:53

when they brutalize people who are

15:55

counter protesting their bigotry.

15:58

Yeah, yeah, it is what it

16:00

is. I wrote an article for Bellancat

16:03

three years ago, like the first thing I ever

16:05

wrote for them was was was tracing

16:08

the efforts of these groups to make inroads

16:10

with the police and how it had functioned and how

16:12

based on some like foyed information,

16:14

we know that police talk about these folks and

16:17

they do see them as as

16:19

friendlies. In fact, they were called in Kenosha

16:22

armed friendlies, like the armed ashman

16:24

who showed up um or sorry,

16:26

no that was that was Albuquerque, Albuquerque when

16:28

that guy got shot um by a right

16:30

wing demonstrator and um, you

16:32

know that There's been similar things said by

16:35

the police of them in Portland. I think the phrasing was that

16:37

they were more mainstream than the anti fascist

16:39

demonstrators and like it's this

16:41

thing. One of the things that's really interesting about the d c

16:44

rally is that some Proud Boys did get arrested. There

16:46

were twenty one I think arrests, five

16:48

for gun possession, and I think four of

16:50

those were right wing demonstrators. There was at least

16:52

one counter protester who

16:55

was arrested with an illegal gun, but

16:57

a number of folks from Georgia who were arrested

16:59

with like both guns on their person and in the hotel

17:01

room anyway, And there's a whole

17:03

thread that I've got archived um

17:06

on jeez, I think it

17:08

was four chan um. That's

17:10

just like them being or no start,

17:13

it was the donald of them just enraged

17:15

that cops had arrested some of them

17:17

and like, yeah, So it's funny

17:19

because they have spent so much time

17:23

like going after like

17:25

police support and signaling police

17:27

support and backing the Blue um,

17:30

and it has gained them obvious sympathy

17:32

and obvious advantage. But whenever

17:35

they get arrested for just blatantly

17:37

like breaking the law in such a way that the

17:39

cops have to arrest them even though they clearly

17:41

don't want to. Like what happened with that guy Alan

17:44

Swinney who waved a gun at a crowd up here in Portland,

17:46

like what happened with some of the folks illegally carrying guns

17:48

in d C. Whatever that happens, they still

17:51

get so angry because they

17:53

just they don't think that they should be accountable

17:55

like that. That's why they back the Blue is

17:57

because they they fundamentally think

18:00

that the law is a weapon they get to use

18:02

on other people. Um,

18:04

and usually they're right in that,

18:06

but they get very angry whenever it

18:09

gets enforced against them.

18:11

Yeah, I think, Um,

18:14

it's it's useful when we look at

18:16

back the blue that we recognize

18:18

that it's not them supporting cops,

18:20

it's them currying favor.

18:24

They don't care about cops. They care

18:26

about getting to do whatever they want

18:29

and hoping that because they baked

18:32

a cop a cake that they're not going to get

18:34

held accountable for it. You know, that's

18:36

exactly right. So

18:39

that's fun, everything's great. Um,

18:43

you want to talk with us a little bit about

18:46

how that rally started, like before

18:48

before the fighting and stuff got started. I'm interesting

18:50

that in kind of what you saw from the

18:53

pro Trump scheff, Like, first off, I'm wondering,

18:55

like what what you'd characterize the sort

18:57

of the ratio of you know,

18:59

the extreme street brawlers set to

19:02

the folks who were just kind of like just

19:04

trumpy as fuck, if that makes sense.

19:07

So I was at

19:09

the Supreme Court um

19:11

where anti fascists had shown up to stage

19:14

to block to block up

19:16

and kind of meet together while the

19:19

maga's were over at Freedom Plaza um

19:23

and so we were there

19:26

and it was not that many people

19:29

at first, and then um,

19:31

a couple of maga's rolled through, and then it was

19:33

like, oh, like apparently they were coming to

19:35

the Supreme Court to hear people

19:38

speak at that location. Um.

19:42

And that's when police started

19:45

bringing out a barricade to

19:47

block off the street. But they didn't have enough

19:51

of the metal barricades too

19:54

fully do it, um,

19:58

which seems like a major oversight. Police

20:03

have at least more experience dealing

20:05

with this kind of ship than any other police department

20:07

in the country, Like they're supposed to be the best protests.

20:10

So they just like didn't have enough barricades

20:13

and they had to do a physical

20:15

wall of just playing like regular foot

20:17

cops. Um. And then

20:19

that's when more maggas came through, and I have

20:21

I have footage of just seeing them

20:24

turning the corners just like this endless stream,

20:26

just packing in further and further um,

20:29

into this half a block

20:31

or block space. UM.

20:35

And you can't I couldn't really

20:37

tell the difference between just

20:40

regular trumpsters and

20:43

like virulent racists because

20:46

every so thin you

20:48

know, talking, Yeah,

20:51

it's all they were. They were

20:54

screaming over the barricade. Um,

20:57

just like hurling insults of

20:59

all sorts of crazy ship they were. The

21:02

worst part was probably when these like

21:05

thousands of maga's who have come

21:07

from all over the country to attend this

21:09

thing start chanting at the three

21:11

hundred local anti fascists

21:14

on a Saturday afternoon get

21:16

a job. It's

21:18

like, well, why are you here? I

21:25

feel like you guys are the ones that should probably

21:27

be getting a job because you

21:30

know, and then um, also it's Saturday.

21:32

Also it's a fucking Saturday. Um,

21:35

And and it was. It

21:38

was a lot of people hurling

21:40

insults about George Sorrows. Cowboys

21:44

showed up. They were the ones chanting fucking

21:46

Antifa. They love,

21:49

They love yelling that. That's their favorite thing

21:51

in the world. They think it's It really

21:53

makes people angry. I

21:56

just can't get over just

21:59

in apparently the name anti fascists set

22:02

so many people off. The anti

22:04

fascist you hate the anti

22:06

fascist, like I can't. I can't

22:08

get over that, I know. Anyway,

22:11

that's the trucks of all of this, isn't it. But um,

22:15

it's all branding, is what it is.

22:17

It's all advertising and

22:20

marketing. Can you tell how like drained

22:25

I am dealing with this. I'm like, you're

22:29

wonderful, but yes, of course, this is

22:31

like a mentally, physically, emotionally

22:33

exhausting experience that you just went through and you're

22:36

recapping for us. Yeah. Um

22:39

yeah, So the like I couldn't

22:41

tell I couldn't tell the

22:44

hardline like virulent racist,

22:46

bigoted, violent people apart from

22:48

the regular magaz because they were all angry

22:52

and yelling the same things. Um.

22:55

They were all cheering when speakers

22:57

would say the same hateful rhetoric, um,

23:01

and they were all it was just like

23:03

this total group

23:06

think. I think the thing that was most alarming

23:10

was the fact that there were so many people who

23:12

are so thoroughly

23:14

convinced that Trump won the election.

23:17

Yeah, Like, that's what's

23:20

baffling, is that so many

23:22

people showed up. It's what's

23:25

terrifying. I mean those

23:27

people all also like, there's just that.

23:29

I'm sure everybody caught the story of the e R

23:31

nurse from South Dakota who's been talking about

23:34

dealing with dying people who are saying

23:36

that the COVID nineteen is

23:38

a hoax as it is killing them.

23:41

Um like yeah,

23:43

there's no such thing as reality anymore.

23:46

Um, or or truth. There's

23:49

just there's just arguments which

23:52

have to end in violence because there is

23:54

no way to actually arrive at a consensus

23:57

of reality. M hmm, yeah,

24:00

yeah, I was. I was talking to a mega who thought I

24:02

was a friendly outside of the hotel

24:04

the next day. Because

24:06

I I can pass as white trash.

24:09

Um, because I am. I

24:12

can call myself white trash. I'm with you

24:14

because I am. Baby. There's

24:18

like a certain smell that you get after you've

24:20

lived in a trailer. It just

24:22

it just stays with you. You get like a look

24:24

in your eyes of just remembering field

24:26

mice coming up through your floor all

24:29

winter, stepping into the shower

24:31

and feeling the floor buckle under you. Yeah,

24:34

the best. Um.

24:38

So yeah, I'm saying white trash

24:40

as like a derogatory

24:42

term on myself. Um,

24:45

But she was. She was telling me that quote

24:49

the true people. We're

24:51

saying that the number

24:53

of people who showed up for that rally was

24:56

one point five million from

25:00

covering from covering

25:02

enough actions. I'm pretty good at counting

25:05

crowd sizes, and I would estimate

25:08

maybe thirty to fifty

25:10

thousand everywhere,

25:15

but in that one space, Um,

25:20

I would I couldn't guess more than ten

25:22

k at Scots, but

25:24

so you know, she was insisting this. She also said

25:27

that Florida isn't humid because

25:29

the ocean is there, and the ocean has salt,

25:31

and salt drives things out, So

25:35

she's a flat earth person too. He

25:38

didn't get us the moisture,

25:43

so that was definitely a conversation

25:45

I had. Yeah. Yeah, so I

25:47

don't know if you've ever been to Florida, but it is

25:51

uh, it's you could slice the air with

25:53

a knife. No, it's

25:56

horrible. Don't ever go to Florida. Wallet

25:58

off is my atto? Build

26:01

that wall only around Florida.

26:04

Um yeah, I mean,

26:06

like, this is the type of mentality

26:09

that we're looking at, is people who have

26:12

been fed so much bullshit that they

26:14

that their baseline ability

26:17

to process information has

26:20

been so thoroughly distorted

26:23

that it is no longer about critical

26:25

thinking. It is about um

26:28

like that the function has changed

26:31

to rationalizing

26:34

opinions and feelings

26:37

however necessary. Like that's

26:39

where we're at, and that's

26:41

why we're in like a post truth era.

26:45

Well where I'm I clearly

26:47

said on video and in

26:49

my own tweets about like me getting

26:51

attacked that I was hit and

26:53

that I was bashed, and I originally

26:56

said I don't think I was targeted, and

26:58

then I looked at the footage and I was like, oh, I was

27:00

targeted. And I got flooded

27:03

with with people calling

27:05

me a liar and a fake news and all this

27:07

stuff, and I'm like, I'm

27:09

on record never saying that I

27:11

was stabbed. Um,

27:13

yeah, and I I said stabbed

27:16

at some point because it looked like you've gotten slashed

27:18

in the ear with something and understandable

27:21

and people were stabbed. Somebody

27:27

struck you in the face and slashed your

27:29

face open, like I'm sorry that yeah,

27:32

yeah, I actively beating all

27:34

over my respirator and my hand

27:37

and my tech vest like you

27:39

would assume given that information

27:42

in the moment, there's a possibility

27:45

that a stab occurred, because

27:48

a sharp object is usually

27:50

the thing that causes blood to come

27:52

out of a person's body, and

27:54

it's you know, if they

27:56

quibble over what precisely

27:58

happened, then they don't have to deal with what

28:00

absolutely happened, which is that

28:03

you were assaulted for filming

28:05

somebody, because they don't care it

28:08

doesn't fit the narrative. Is why my finger

28:10

and knuckles hurt and it's raining

28:12

outside. Yeah, as

28:15

you're you're talking about this in this disconnect.

28:17

Yeah, we don't have truth. We have people

28:20

that believe I

28:22

can't even say that they believe a different set of facts they utilized.

28:26

But yeah,

28:29

we do have one truth? What is that? And

28:31

only one truth? The products

28:33

and services that support this podcast together

28:43

everything, We're

28:47

back, And I'm so sorry for interrupting you, Katie.

28:50

I made a sacred vow on the

28:53

top of Mount Corek that I would never

28:55

let a perfect opportunity for an ad plug

28:58

pass me by, and and so my

29:00

promise to the God. I understand.

29:04

There's a lot that I don't understand, but I understand

29:07

a sacred bow. Um. I was just

29:09

uh thinking about

29:12

this conversation about the lack

29:14

of of truth and consensus

29:16

of what's real and what isn't and so

29:18

much of it, I mean, Obama

29:21

wrote about this recently too, But so

29:23

much of it has to do with the changing

29:26

media landscape, with the fact

29:28

that small newspapers that places

29:30

that had you know, independent

29:33

journalists or just small newspapers that don't

29:35

exist anymore more more and more anyway,

29:37

you know, and and Fox News or o n.

29:40

Those are the places that people get their information.

29:42

I mean, I'm pretty yeah.

29:45

I mean it's it's face like little blogs

29:47

called like truth Serum Dot

29:50

read It, you know, like yeah, I

29:52

mean that's definitely like one of the most frustrating

29:55

things about reporting on the

29:57

ground is that I will have documentation

30:00

of uh, you

30:02

know, a process, like a

30:05

sequence of events. I have that documentation,

30:08

and a lot of larger media hubs

30:11

they will just come in and get

30:13

whatever information is most concise, and

30:16

oftentimes that's what the

30:18

police claim happened. So,

30:20

for example, there was UM

30:22

in New York City. There's a weekly Stone Wall

30:25

march UM and it's hosted

30:27

by two trans women um

30:30

uh miss Queen Jean

30:33

and Joel Rivera, and

30:36

they hold this It's a peaceful march,

30:39

but for whatever reason UM

30:41

s RG, which is Strategic Response

30:43

Group. They are the ones who

30:45

handle terrorism and also

30:48

for some reason protests UM.

30:50

They came in full of their turtle gear

30:53

UM on their bikes and at

30:56

one a cop in

31:00

ahead of the march, he like starts

31:03

falling off his bike, reaches out, falls

31:05

over and it prompts all the other

31:08

s RG cops just around and start

31:10

going move back, moved back,

31:12

like freaking the funk out, they just start

31:14

arresting random people. And

31:17

then there's footage of a

31:20

cop holding a chain against

31:22

a man's neck, and the

31:24

police released a claim that

31:27

the arrest that occurred that night were

31:29

because a man attempted

31:31

to strangle an officer with a

31:34

metal chain, and all of the

31:36

information surrounding it is clearly the

31:38

first arrest that happened is because a cop fell

31:40

off his bike on his own

31:44

and none of these

31:46

like major networks bothered

31:49

to look into that, um

31:52

and you know, it's it's stuff like that where

31:54

it's like the information is there, I

31:56

posted it, It is publicly

31:59

available. That's reason why I use Twitter

32:01

to report, because it's so much

32:03

more accessible than if

32:05

you go on Instagram or stick to Facebook or

32:08

whatever. It is, like, it's so much more accessible.

32:10

That information was right there, and

32:12

they instead went with the police claim of

32:16

something that we don't have any

32:18

proof is true. Right,

32:20

Well, that's part of the other part of

32:22

the problem, right where the institutions

32:24

that we're supposed to trust, uh don't

32:27

do a good job. So

32:29

it's been never have exactly

32:31

exactly, and so this sort of deterioration

32:34

of trust in those institutions, um

32:36

has led people to these other outlets

32:39

and factions and and and ways

32:41

to get information that is even worse.

32:44

Um, but like it's not good

32:47

all around, and uh, it's

32:49

it's led us to here where um you

32:51

have to like end up defending like garbage

32:54

CNN just because uh

32:56

they're not fucking or

32:59

whatever, like yeah, but they still

33:01

I mean, this is the thing you saw people. I think

33:03

there is actually some evidence of people of

33:06

people in legacy media is starting to realize

33:08

this because there's been a couple of articles in

33:11

some larger outlets that have been like, hey,

33:13

we can't trust the police at face

33:15

value. But it still has not sunk through

33:17

in the way that it needs to yet. Um

33:20

that's why it's going to sound

33:22

horrible. But every time a legacy media

33:24

person gets assaulted by the cops, there's

33:27

a part of me that's like good, Like, now

33:31

now you'll understand what like what

33:34

the rest of us have been going through, Like this is

33:36

what they do. Yeah, I've

33:38

noticed. I've noticed that media

33:40

has started showing up to actions because

33:43

they've routinely asked for my footage

33:45

for free, and I've been like, uh,

33:47

no, I actually had as someone at The

33:49

New York Times message me and

33:51

say like, asked to use my footage

33:54

and said, I understand if you're a professional

33:56

journalist. Just thought i'd ask

33:59

and I was like if if

34:04

excuse me, and then I was like, yeah, no, I I

34:06

can license the footage for a fee,

34:09

and she goes, okay, never mind, yep,

34:12

yeah, of course. And

34:14

so they've started showing up to these

34:16

actions, and because

34:19

they haven't spent any time developing

34:21

any sort of awareness on the environment that

34:23

they're reporting on, they just

34:25

go with what they think is correct

34:28

and the easiest uh

34:31

place to get information is from the cops

34:34

um. And it's it's troubling

34:37

because it's like I've been doing

34:39

this work and now you're coming in to

34:42

do the work I've been doing worse

34:45

by a lot. They There's an

34:47

article in the l A Times that

34:49

just dropped like two days ago that was based

34:52

on there. I think they're Seattle bureauhead

34:55

going to Portland for like two days and attending

34:57

one rally and talking to four black people

35:00

and then saying the black community has

35:02

issues with the anarchists, and it was

35:04

like, you talked to four black people. You

35:06

talk to the four black people who you type

35:08

in black Portland activists were the

35:10

first ones to come up. That's what you

35:13

did. You didn't actually try to meet

35:15

any like, which is like not to

35:17

say that they're in a bunch of black people who have issues with

35:19

like what did like you know,

35:21

far left protesters have done in Portland, but

35:23

like claiming their don't mean

35:26

that you because you googled for

35:28

black people. It's like, it's

35:30

like that that guy that got interviewed, he

35:32

was like the basis for that article about

35:35

embedding with ANTIFA and

35:38

how they're they're insurgent

35:41

whatever insurgent anarchists

35:43

is like any good anti fascists,

35:46

any good anarchist would not have let

35:48

you roll with them because

35:50

they have good they have way better opset

35:52

than that You were rolling with a bunch of twelve

35:55

year olds wearing black hoodies like yeah,

35:57

yeah, and you you decided that everyone

35:59

breaking a window was an insurgent anarchist,

36:02

which there's a lot of anarchists who will break

36:04

windows. But you didn't do the leg where

36:06

it's it's this, it's this eternally

36:08

frustrating thing about the

36:11

legacy media, where number it's

36:13

the Jake Tapper problem. That's what I call it

36:15

where you are required

36:17

to have a take on everything, but

36:19

also you can't possibly be

36:22

competent on more than one or two of the

36:24

forty to fifty things you have a take on every

36:26

week, and so most of your takes

36:28

are ship because there's a you're

36:31

just going to be bad And everyone does

36:33

this to some extent, But if you're not

36:36

the headlining CNN dude or

36:39

like you know, someone who has a a

36:41

weekly piece for The New York Times, the

36:43

damage you can do is minimal. And I'm not shooting on the

36:45

New York Times because Charlie Warzel, one

36:48

of their opinion art writers at large, is actually one

36:50

of like seven reasonable people

36:52

left in the United States. But as a

36:54

rule, one of the problems is

36:57

you have to have a take, and you

36:59

you're it is not going to have good ones most of the time. You're

37:01

going to be like Jake Tapper getting tracked, like tricked

37:04

by Andy No because you

37:06

watched a thirty second video and assume

37:08

you understand a four year long running

37:10

street battle, right

37:12

and it it legitimizes all

37:15

those terrible opinions and uninformed opinions

37:17

because he's the man in the suit

37:19

on the TV he's the he's the serious

37:21

guy. Uh so you

37:24

have to trust what he says. I

37:27

hate it. I hate you know. I hate

37:29

Obama too because of you know, a

37:32

number of things. But I love the

37:34

phrase he's going full grandpa.

37:38

Let me tell you why I don't like the first

37:42

off, Ken yet. Now, in

37:44

that interview that you cited earlier, when he talks

37:47

about kind of like the truth christ he the phrase

37:49

he uses to describe our problems with

37:52

the lack of any sort of accepted understanding

37:54

of realities an epistemological crisis.

37:57

Um And I love that phrasing because that's what

37:59

it is. You have, this you

38:02

you have like the collapse of

38:04

truth in our society is not

38:06

all that different from the foundation

38:08

of a building falling in and

38:10

it has the same impact on

38:14

everything. Um. And.

38:16

There are a lot of people who think that they

38:18

can fix the crisis of truth

38:21

by talking to the liars and getting their

38:23

perspective. Um.

38:25

Yeah, it's the people who believe

38:27

in a marketplace of ideas which has never

38:29

existed and never will existed. It's the dumbest

38:31

concept anyone ever came up with. There's no marketplace

38:34

of ideas. There's people who are lying.

38:36

There's people who know that they're lying and are lying.

38:38

There's people who don't know that they're lying and are lying.

38:41

And then there's the truth. It's people who pay

38:43

other people to lie for these people

38:45

who make money from lying. It's

38:48

I feel like the what we're concluding on

38:50

here is that Evans,

38:53

you and I are the only frontline journalists

38:55

out there who are

38:59

doing anything good and we should

39:01

get millions of dollars. But

39:04

instead, uh,

39:06

the Jake Tappers of the world are

39:09

the ones taking our money to say stupid

39:11

shit, and we should

39:14

riot against them. You should host the lead

39:19

yeah with the name with all

39:22

check out your Patreon is what they should

39:24

also do. Oh yeah, you know, I

39:26

just think that that's such a cool thing. That's so I

39:29

mean, Patreon has been transformative

39:31

for Cody and I, uh in doing

39:34

our our business outside of this show,

39:37

um, and for so many

39:39

people, you know, like crowdsourcing

39:43

of money that to support the people that

39:45

you believe in, that's doing work that you you care. Yeah,

39:47

I mean, there's so much, especially in media,

39:49

but in a lot of industries, there's so much

39:52

gate keeping. Um,

39:54

where if I am trying

39:56

to cover something or write

39:59

about something, I either need

40:01

to do it at a loss um,

40:04

with like a lot of um

40:07

energy and time and money spent on my end

40:09

knowing that all I'm getting is exposure, or

40:13

um, I

40:15

am getting overwhelmed with like the amount

40:17

of work that I have to do to justify

40:20

like a semi reasonable amount of income.

40:23

Um. And so something like Patreon allows

40:26

for Like people call me, they say that

40:28

I'm not a real journalist because

40:30

I have a Patreon, and I'm like, no, I am,

40:33

like you google me, um,

40:36

but it's because I'm crowdfunding

40:40

to do the work. UM.

40:42

So that way then I can do the work that I

40:45

feel needs to be done. Like I trust my

40:47

intuition and my

40:49

ability to recognize

40:52

where the story is and what the

40:54

story is and my ability to vet

40:56

out information. UM.

40:58

Like I trust myself in that respect

41:01

as a journalist, and

41:03

UM, you know the evidence

41:06

bears that out. Like I'm actually kind

41:08

of good at this UM.

41:10

And it's like I'm not going to be wasting my time

41:12

trying to suck up to editors

41:16

or you know, applying for jobs

41:18

and doing really intensive edit tests

41:20

that don't pan out, um,

41:23

when I could be on the ground doing the fucking

41:25

work and uh,

41:28

you know, getting that done

41:30

as it's happening. Like, it just

41:33

doesn't make sense to me to to be

41:35

prevented from the work because of the

41:39

barriers created by the industry

41:41

when I can just skip all that people,

41:45

I I'm gonna probably piss

41:47

off some of like my legacy journalist listeners

41:49

who say is but like, I've never understood giving a

41:51

funk about a CV or a resume for a journalist.

41:54

The only thing you need is a resume is a list of

41:56

here's ship that I wrote, Here's things that I

41:58

did, your stories that I like. That's

42:01

like I've hired journalists before and I'm

42:03

currently in the process of hiring journalists,

42:05

and the only thing that I look at is like, well, what did you do? Would

42:08

you do? And that's not really what a resume

42:10

is. A resume is like how you frame your

42:13

education and history and background,

42:15

and like doing that matters in terms of

42:17

like whether or not a journalist is a real journalist

42:20

is have they done real fucking journalism?

42:22

Right? What's the work? Not what's the mass? Head?

42:24

Yeah,

42:27

no, give give Talia

42:29

money, tell

42:32

us where, Yeah, people can find your Patreon

42:35

and find you online and all that. Uh,

42:37

Patreon dot com slash Talia

42:40

Jane and then um

42:43

twitter in it's an underscore

42:45

Talia. You can also just search

42:47

the words Talia and the word Jane

42:51

and I will probably come up in that. UM

42:54

got some good. You guys got some

42:56

good. I still haven't gotten fleets, tweets

42:59

on fleets, tweets on look,

43:01

I want to I have something something I

43:03

want to read, y'all, and then get people's thoughts on That

43:05

kind of goes back to the what

43:07

we've been talking about visa vi uh

43:11

Nazis and fascists

43:13

and confronting them or not confronting them, and

43:15

why it was such a bad thing for certain

43:18

people to have said, like, hey, don't

43:20

don't go after these folks, Um,

43:22

don't march and confront them. But

43:24

before we do that, you know who loves

43:26

confronting Nazis?

43:30

Uh, Blue apron,

43:34

Yes, Blue Apron cannot

43:36

be stopped from crushing Nazi skulls.

43:38

Um to the fact that it's actually caused

43:41

something of a problem for them, and they're they're

43:43

buried. Also a lot

43:45

of a lot of legal issues, they're a lot of legal

43:49

Um. Yeah, it's a complicated

43:51

matter. Um, So

43:53

if he can we say that

44:00

we can we can Yeah? Can we say the

44:02

truth good, the truth

44:04

about Blue Apron cracking the

44:06

skulls of skinheads, rolling

44:10

up on some bone heads and exposing the

44:12

bone in their heads using a

44:14

length of pipe. Blue Apron,

44:17

fuck the Nazis

44:23

together everything.

44:30

We're back, and we're really hoping Blue

44:32

Apron gives us some money.

44:34

Yeah, because

44:36

they're gonna win all their losses. Fingers

44:40

crossed, fingers

44:43

crossed. Um. So this is actually

44:45

something I came across in January

44:47

of two thousand seventeen. I almost I was planning

44:49

on including in an article I was writing for Cracked,

44:52

but it never never quite shook out the way

44:54

I wanted it to, uh, and then we all got fired.

44:57

But it's a quote from a guy who's a friend of mine on

44:59

Twitter. Pucket one zero one

45:01

is the name on Twitter, and he's an old

45:03

punk dude. I've actually chatted with him a couple of

45:05

times over the phone too, and um

45:08

his he tells a story here about his

45:10

youth in the punk hardcore scene that

45:13

I think is very

45:16

emblematic of a truth about Nazis

45:19

uh and important for people to hear. Uh.

45:22

Yeah, if you were here's Pucket. If you were part

45:24

of any punk hardcore scene in the eighties

45:26

and nineties, you probably laid hands on a Nazi skin

45:28

head at least once. If you were in

45:30

punk hardcore at the time, you probably saw Nazi

45:33

skins show up and push people around. You may

45:35

have seen a show or even if then you get shut down

45:37

because of it. One of my favorite bars refrained

45:39

from telling a Nazi skin to leave because he

45:41

said he just wanted one beer and would be on his

45:43

way. That ended with hiring active

45:45

duty and retired servicemen a security specifically

45:48

to sit in them on their way. It culminated

45:50

with about twenty Nazi skins attacking the bar

45:52

in a massive brawl. There were numerous

45:54

fights along the way. There was a good chunk of my life when

45:56

I think everyone I knew had put hands on a Nazi

45:58

And here's why it was never just one

46:01

Nazi skin. One became six,

46:03

became twenty Nazi skin showed

46:05

up, pushed people around, took over the venue, and

46:07

turned everything to ship with bullying, abuse

46:09

and their sig higling. And that's

46:13

kind of the kind

46:15

of the story he's pointing out. And there's actually a few people

46:17

in his comments who came up with similar stories of the punk

46:19

scene that like, if you had a punk bar,

46:22

it would start with one guy with some Nazi

46:24

patches showing up and he would just

46:26

want to drink and be a reasonable guy and say,

46:29

look, you know, like can I not drink here? Is

46:31

this bar or not for everybody?

46:33

Yeah, And then he comes back with a friend, and

46:35

then he comes back with four friends, and then they're

46:38

beating the ship out of everyone at the bar who's not a

46:40

Nazi. And that's how Nazis work,

46:42

and it does. It's not just confined to the punk

46:44

hard core scene. It's confined to

46:46

say downtown Washington,

46:48

d C. Yeah,

46:51

I mean that's what we've seen. That's what we've

46:53

seen at protests, you

46:55

know, whether it's whether it's Proud Boys or the police.

46:59

Um. The police use have cracked down harder

47:01

on small um

47:05

like peaceful uh

47:07

marches in the city where it's

47:09

you know, maybe twenty or thirty people. Then

47:12

they did, you know, So we had this massive

47:14

action for Brianna Taylor that

47:17

had something like two or three thousand people, and

47:19

the cops just let it happen. They did not

47:21

bother anybody because they recognized

47:24

that they were actually outnumbered. UM.

47:26

But then more recently there

47:29

was an action UM

47:32

to discuss like femicide

47:35

and UM

47:38

a lot of things. It was after it was the day after

47:41

it doesn't matter UM,

47:44

Like we had a ton of people who showed up to Washington Square

47:46

Park to party. UM.

47:48

This was the day after cops had

47:51

rushed the park when there was a smattering of people

47:53

in it after midnight and brutally arrested

47:55

to people. UM. And then

47:57

the day after that it was like, all right, let's see if they

48:00

try it, Like if they try and close the

48:02

park again with all these people here and they

48:04

didn't do it. It's when you're

48:06

not showing up, Like you don't need

48:08

to be frontline to show up. You

48:11

just need to have your physical body taking

48:13

up space to protect

48:17

the other people who are frontline,

48:19

who are ready to get their ship rocked. It's

48:22

just it's incredibly frustrating that

48:24

time and again we see this same

48:27

thing play out and the same conclusion

48:29

made, and people still find

48:32

ways to rationalize staying

48:34

home and donating

48:36

to act Blue Links as

48:38

a justifiable alternative

48:42

when it's not. It's

48:46

a situation where like

48:49

the way it actually works is if you have

48:51

enough people showing up. If you have thousands

48:54

of people showing up, you only need

48:57

a hundred to two hundred front liners if

48:59

you've three thousand people showing up to

49:01

back them up, because all the

49:03

front liners need to do is present a

49:06

visible deterrent while the crowd presents

49:08

evidence that like, these people

49:10

can't be pushed around, and the

49:12

cops will stay away and the fash will

49:15

run away. And that's how

49:17

it works. You need the numbers and part

49:19

of living in a society. People are scared about

49:21

fascism now right. They're scared because of the ship the president

49:23

saying Lindsey Graham saying about

49:26

throwing out votes, and like, yes, that is that is

49:28

fascy as hell, that's fascism. It's scary.

49:31

The way to fight it, like voting,

49:34

is the tenius tenius, tenious chunk

49:36

of fighting it. The way to fight it is to show up

49:38

in the street and let those people know they

49:40

aren't welcome. And if enough of you show up,

49:42

you don't even have to beat them to death. But

49:44

if not enough people show up, then you might have

49:47

to beat them to death. Well it's hard because

49:49

I've heard people say, like, well, if you

49:51

don't if nobody's there, then there's not going

49:53

to be a fight. Just let them get it out of their system. They

49:56

do their day. But then you're not

49:58

showing up and saying no, that I do support

50:00

this. You're not saying this will not stand. It

50:03

becomes something that is more normalized,

50:05

and that if

50:07

you don't show up, if there's no one

50:10

showing up, they will just attack someone

50:12

walking their dog down the street, like

50:14

what happened in New York when those five Proud Boys

50:16

got arrested. They're they're they're

50:19

they're showing up with the intent of committing

50:21

violence and like

50:24

feeling powerful. So whether

50:26

or not you as a person who knows how

50:28

to throw a punch and has a shield and is ready

50:30

to go, whether or not you were there, they

50:33

will still do that. It's a matter whether they're

50:35

going to do it with someone ready to fight back or

50:38

someone who's just walking down the street.

50:41

That's the point. Plus it also the

50:43

the idea of UM

50:46

people showing up to show that like this

50:49

ship won't be tolerated. That also

50:51

blends into why UM

50:54

anarchists go around and smash windows.

50:57

It's not because they hate window.

51:01

UM windows was incredible.

51:03

We love windows. UM

51:05

it's because it's it's vocalizing

51:09

frustration and also showing

51:12

that the people will lash

51:14

out when things are bad,

51:17

we will not take it lying down. And

51:19

that goes towards fascists, That

51:21

goes towards the police state, that goes towards

51:23

capitalism um, capitalist

51:25

white supremacy, like the system at

51:28

large, like all. Like you

51:30

know, if you if you're going to put down looting

51:33

and burning things down um

51:35

and also refusing to show up for peaceful

51:38

protests, you are not for the

51:40

movement. You're not in the movement, and you have no interest

51:43

in helping to defend against the fascist

51:45

terrorist threat that we are very much

51:48

in the middle of. Patreon,

51:51

do Jane your

51:55

money, please

52:00

your shoot your cash after your your PayPal

52:02

in here too, Talia. Sometimes

52:04

people just want to throw your bucks. But I

52:06

don't like use Patreon because

52:08

they're an arm of the CIA. That's

52:11

my conspiracy theory. Patreon is the c I'm

52:14

pretty sure PayPal is just PayPal dot

52:16

me slash Talia Jane cash

52:18

up and venmo or just Talia Jane um.

52:22

Pretty pretty easy. I got I

52:24

got all those handles early on MHM.

52:28

Talia money and show up to

52:31

yell at Nazis and also cops

52:33

in the street. Um, you don't have to

52:35

break any laws. All you have to do is be

52:37

there and be angry. And we're

52:40

all angry right where A jacket,

52:42

it's fine, And a mask

52:45

A mask? A mask? Yeah, actually

52:47

maybe two masks. Things are getting very bad,

52:50

double dot shut up. I'd recommend some

52:52

gloves, maybe in like um safety

52:54

shield of some sort to fish and

52:57

a mask. We're

53:00

gonna go bio hazard block on

53:02

the hive x baby tive x block hell

53:04

yeah, or

53:07

just like a big garbage bag. I don't know. Thank

53:09

you so much for joining us today, and thank

53:11

you guys. Having you

53:14

guys do this is awesome and I love

53:16

all of you, and I'm glad that we got to have this cute

53:19

little baby. Yeah,

53:21

it was nice, alright.

53:23

We all used to work together at a website you might

53:25

have heard of. Yes,

53:28

that's it, that's where it was. They

53:32

times together and folks

53:35

dot net failing New York

53:37

times. I

53:39

can have cheeseburger dot com. Yeah,

53:43

I used to make so much simpler

53:46

times I've

53:48

done it by everything

53:56

so great.

54:00

I tread Dan Worst

54:03

Year Ever is a production of I Heart Radio. For

54:05

more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the

54:07

i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

54:10

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.