0:01

Before we get into this episode,

0:03

I have some breaking news to share with you. Rodney

0:06

Reid has been granted a stay of execution, and

0:08

I want to thank every one of you who

0:11

took action, who signed a petition, who

0:13

made phone calls, who wrote letters.

0:16

Your actions matter, and

0:19

this is a good day. At least

0:21

we have a chance now to reopen

0:24

this case and prove his actual

0:26

innocence once and for all. The

0:32

year was Stacy

0:34

States and police officer Jimmy Finnell were

0:36

engaged to be married, but Stacy was having an

0:38

affair with a man named Rodney Reid. On

0:41

April, Stacy's

0:43

body was discovered strangled on

0:45

the side of a dirt road near Bastrop, Texas.

0:48

Her fiance, Jimmy Finnelle, was a prime

0:50

suspect until three of Rodney Reid's

0:52

intacts bermative z OA were found inside

0:55

her body. During trial,

0:57

the state alleged that Rodney intercepted

0:59

Missty on her three am drive to work

1:01

and proceeded to rape and murder her, with

1:04

no other physical evidence of Rodney

1:06

in a car or at the scene. The

1:08

forensic science of the time incorrectly

1:10

asserting that intact spermatis zoa could not survive

1:13

past twenty four hours, and Stacy's whereabouts

1:15

being known within the twenty four hours prior to

1:18

her death, Rodney Reid was sentenced

1:20

to death. It

1:23

is now common knowledge that intax

1:25

spermative zoa can be found at least seventy two

1:27

hours after release, and all of the state's

1:29

forensic expert witnesses have since disavowed

1:32

their testimonies. Reid continues

1:34

to maintain that the spermative zoa that

1:37

the investigation discovered was the result of

1:39

consensual intercourse that transpired well

1:41

over twenty four hours prior to her death.

1:44

On this episode of Rawful Conviction with Jason

1:46

Flom, we go to death Row to speak with

1:48

Rodney Reid. Will also speak with his attorney,

1:50

Bryce ben Jet, his brother Roderick

1:53

Reid, Dr Phil and the world

1:55

renowned forensic expert Dr Michael

1:57

Boden. Will retell his compelling

1:59

sworn testimony that rules out

2:02

Rodney as the potential perpetrator and disputes

2:04

the time of death. This is

2:07

Wrongful Conviction. Senior

2:16

staff attorney for the Innocence Project and Rodney's

2:18

legal counsel, Bryce ben Jet, came

2:20

by to tell us about Rodney's case, and

2:23

we know that on April Stacy

2:26

States was found strangled and killed

2:29

in Bastrop, Texas. She was last seen, of course,

2:31

with her fiancee, Jimmy Finel,

2:34

and the search for Stacy

2:37

started when she failed to report for her

2:39

three thirty am shift at the grocery store

2:41

where she worked. Jimmy's truck,

2:43

of course, which he testified that

2:45

she used to drive herself to work that morning,

2:48

was found in a high school parking lot at five am,

2:51

and Stacy's body was discovered later

2:53

that afternoon that same day, lying

2:55

face up near an unpaved road. So

2:58

the state argued that Rodney didn't know her,

3:00

but rather that he intercepted her on her way

3:03

to work, gained entry somehow to

3:05

her truck, sexually assaulted and strangled

3:07

her, and transported her to the remote unpaved

3:09

road where her body was discovered. All

3:11

the while and this is key not leaving any

3:14

other evidence behind other than the sperm

3:16

in her body. And this

3:19

theory was built importantly on three

3:21

pillars, the three spermitive is zoa that were

3:23

found right the testimony

3:25

for three forensic experts who maintained

3:28

that sperm does not stay intact for longer than twenty

3:30

four hours after intercourse, which of course we know that it

3:32

does, and that states whereabouts

3:34

were accounted for most of the day before she was murdered,

3:37

thereby ruling out the consensual

3:39

sex with Reid as an explanation

3:41

for the presence of his sperm, And of course

3:44

the testimony from

3:46

Jimmy Finnell who said

3:48

that she left at three am for work

3:50

in his truck. But take

3:52

us back and explain some of these circumstances

3:55

and how the state developed this narrative

3:57

that we now know not only isn't true, but couldn't

4:00

possibly be true. Yeah, it's interesting

4:02

because when you go back and you look at

4:04

how crimes ought to be investigated,

4:08

there were many sort of obvious

4:11

errors that were done. Initially,

4:13

nobody looked at the apartment

4:15

that Stacy Stites shared with Jimmy

4:17

Finnell, even though that was the last

4:20

place she was seen. That is sort of

4:22

police work one oh one. There were

4:24

not adequate notes taken

4:27

of interviews of Jimmy Finnell, who

4:29

was later the key source

4:31

of the timeline of the state's case. But

4:34

as the investigation actually progressed,

4:37

Jimmy Finnell soon emerged as

4:39

the prime suspect in the case and

4:42

was investigated. He was aggressively

4:44

interrogated, he was subjected to polygraphs

4:47

failed which he failed. And this

4:50

took place even after the police

4:52

knew that it was not his semen

4:55

that was collected from Stacy's body,

4:57

and so the notion that the

5:00

person who semen is in that

5:02

body must be a rapist and a murderer

5:05

was not the operating theory

5:08

of the investigation until

5:10

they matched that semen to Rodney,

5:13

a person of color. And so

5:15

there is where you have

5:17

an investigation of the person who

5:20

looks like he had opportunity

5:23

motive, um had a record

5:25

consistent with this kind of behavior.

5:27

And as soon as Rodney was

5:30

identified as the source

5:32

of that semen, this suddenly

5:34

turned around to a sexual assault murder

5:36

that had to be committed by him. So

5:38

now Rodney becomes the suspect. The state

5:41

argued that Rodney didn't know

5:43

the victim. He did, in fact, he was having a relationship.

5:45

And we now have numerous witnesses that have come forth

5:47

who had no connection to Rodney right, not

5:49

just the ones that did have a connection to Rodney, his relatives

5:52

wh knew he was seeing her, but now others stranger

5:54

strangers to him. Yeah, and this was a

5:56

big issue at the trial. Just to back

5:58

up, I mean, this ale was rushed

6:02

to say at the best. At

6:04

the trial, the defense lawyers

6:07

were presenting what

6:09

Rodney had told him, which he could back

6:11

up with witnesses. He said, I was

6:13

seeing Stacy. It was an occasional

6:15

thing. It was casual. We were with each other

6:18

the night before her

6:20

death, so not the night of April.

6:23

The night of April. So

6:27

that was the theory that was presented

6:29

at the trial. But unfortunately, the

6:31

defense lawyers did not do

6:34

the work or have the time to do the work to

6:36

actually present that evidence to

6:39

the jury. Even what

6:41

little evidence that Rodney's defense

6:43

lawyers were able to present about

6:46

this relationship about the explanation

6:49

was completely negated by the prosecution's

6:51

experts, who said that it was

6:54

impossible for Rodney's

6:57

seemen to be there based on consensual

6:59

sex because of this twenty

7:01

four hour time frame. At that point, right, any

7:03

jury is going to go, well, that's I mean, you

7:06

can't explain that a way. And it was clearly

7:08

important to the jury because they asked about

7:10

it during their deliberations and

7:13

the judge actually read that invalid

7:16

testimony back to them while

7:18

they were deciding whether or not to convict

7:20

Rodney read But now we know from

7:22

the top experts in the field, including

7:25

Dr boden Um, that

7:27

in fact, the actual amount of

7:29

time that the spermative

7:32

zoa can survive or

7:34

that can be detected, I guess up

7:36

to seventy two hours. And all you

7:38

need to do is open a forensic pathology

7:40

textbook, and they don't expert.

7:43

And so we've gone back now

7:45

to the States forensic pathologist,

7:47

the person who did the autopsy,

7:50

who has disclaimed the testimony

7:52

that was offered at the trial. We've

7:54

gone back to the Texas Department

7:56

of Public Safety, who has clarified

7:59

that although their analysts said twenty four

8:01

hours, the science says seventy two.

8:04

And we've gone back to the private DNA lab,

8:06

who their expert also testified about

8:09

this twenty four hour time frame, and

8:11

that private DNA lab has likewise

8:13

recanted that opinion said

8:15

it was in error um. And

8:18

so the foundation of

8:20

the state's case, which

8:22

completely negated Rodney's

8:25

ability to defend himself, is

8:27

gone. And then in its place,

8:29

we've consulted with the leading

8:32

forensic pathologists in the country,

8:34

U Michael boden Werner, spitz Leroy

8:38

Riddick, and uniformly

8:40

they have said that when you look at this body,

8:44

she had been killed hours before the state

8:46

alleged that she was killed, which is

8:48

a time that she, according to

8:50

Jimmy Finnell, was at home with him in her

8:53

apartment. My

8:57

production crew and I flew to Houston, Texas,

9:00

drove about an hour outside the city to the Polunsky

9:02

Unit, where Texas Department of Criminal Justice

9:04

houses death row inmates. We were instructed

9:07

to leave everything but are inspected and approved.

9:09

Production equipment in the car, went through security

9:12

and finally reached Rodney Read for

9:14

our non contact interview through bulletproof

9:17

plexiglass on death row. Right,

9:22

good afternoon. Are you doing. I'm

9:25

doing okay. I mean my heart is happy, honestly, but

9:27

I want to talk about you and thank

9:30

you for talking with me. First

9:32

of all, how are you doing now?

9:35

I mean, you've been through this before. You had an

9:37

execution data two thousand fifteen,

9:40

so this is the second time around well

9:44

as well as to be expected. I mean, you know, I

9:46

have my days, but I'm

9:49

good, you know, with meditation,

9:51

reading, I tried to stay upon

9:53

current events. I tried to distract myself

9:56

from what's going on, you know, with

9:59

other thing. You know, it's for stimulating my mind.

10:02

I'll read magazine, read newspapers.

10:06

I really like reading the comments with

10:08

my supporters. You know, they have comments

10:11

that that I read there. They're inspiring

10:14

to me. Well, you're inspiring

10:16

to them. I mean they're writing to the government's signing

10:18

petitions that I'm putting out that the instance projects

10:20

putting out on it's extraordinary. It's

10:22

someone encouraging to see that, you know,

10:24

and I think it's going to make a difference. I

10:26

hope so and so I

10:29

want to go back, if it's okay with you, back

10:31

to the

10:33

um, you're a young man, good

10:35

looking guy. Um, I'll

10:38

young man. Yeah, you're still a good

10:40

looking guy. But um, but you're a

10:42

young guy and you you meet this woman Stacy

10:44

Stie. It's a romantic situation. We

10:47

know it was a consensual situation. And

10:49

you met her uh at a at a doman

10:53

was it was a convenient story gas

10:55

station like type, but they had a game room

10:57

and all that, And was

10:59

it loving her sight? Was it like a lightning

11:01

bolt? Would I

11:04

wouldn't say it like that. You

11:06

know. I was just there. We were just hanging out. I'm

11:08

at a jukebox selecting

11:10

songs and she walks in, you know. And

11:13

I wouldn't say it was no love at first sight,

11:15

you know, because we ended up playing pool, you

11:17

know, striking up conversation and it was just

11:20

good. And then some

11:22

time after that, you obviously there was chemistry

11:24

there, and you started seeing each other discreet,

11:28

you know, and then at

11:30

some point she started seeing

11:33

Jimmy Finnell. No, she

11:35

was already seeing him, you know. I was

11:37

already seeing someone else. You know. That's

11:39

what's part of the reason why we kind

11:41

of kept the screet. Do you think you were in love with her

11:43

or was it more just just young people

11:46

having fun. We were having fun. There was chemistry

11:48

there, but I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I was in

11:50

love with it because I

11:53

think if I would have been in love with her, how to cut everything

11:55

else off, you know. And I don't really

11:57

think that she was in love with me, because she would have

11:59

been the same way. She would cut everything off on that end.

12:01

You know, how long had you been seeing

12:04

Stacy when when she was murdered

12:07

but I met her late October,

12:09

early in November. Of her

12:13

death was in April, so I will take able

12:15

six months, six six months. And how

12:17

did you find out about on the news? Yeah?

12:20

Yeah, when I heard

12:22

it on the news and talented

12:25

athlete, I didn't want to believe it. This

12:27

is not the stacy, So yeah, I was.

12:29

I was. I was quite shocked when

12:33

they when they flashed her picture. I

12:37

didn't want to believe it because

12:40

I was just with her. I didn't want

12:42

to believe it. It was just with her, like

12:44

late night Sunday, everday morning Monday, and

12:46

she was murdered on a Tuesday.

12:51

All I can do is tell you that I mentioned I had nothing

12:54

to do with that three sperms.

12:56

I was with her the night before. I

12:59

mean, you learned that seybiology that

13:01

in a pen hit drop, you're looking at millions.

13:03

That's just just a pin drop. I

13:05

mean, for the state's on experts

13:08

to come back in, we can't

13:11

you know all three of them. And then

13:14

we know that Jimmy was the original suspect.

13:17

We know they kind of circled up the

13:19

wagons and you know protected

13:21

him. He failed to polygraphs.

13:24

We know all the facts. What

13:26

what would you most want people to know about

13:29

the evidence. If you were to say to a stranger

13:32

or somebody who's watching this right now, go, well, I don't

13:34

know he's in there. It must be something that well,

13:36

the time of death. Dr

13:41

Michael Boden is about as decorated a forensic

13:44

expert as you can get, including

13:46

having served as chairman of the Forensic Pathology

13:49

Panel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations,

13:52

investigating the assassinations of no

13:54

less than President John F. Kennedy

13:56

and Martin Luther King Jr. He studied

13:59

the evidence in Stacy Styke's murder case and

14:01

gave testimony at a hearing back on October

14:03

eleventh, two seventeen, when

14:06

Rodney receiving a new trial. I

14:08

think that my opinion is solid in

14:11

this matter and disagrees with

14:13

the prosecutor's opinion. It

14:15

disagrees on almost every important

14:18

point that the prosecution used to convict

14:20

d Well. It disagrees

14:23

on the time of death, the place

14:25

of death, and whether or not

14:28

a sexual assault that occurred. Right,

14:30

well, those are pretty much it. And then there's the issue

14:33

of vividity, which plays into all of these

14:35

things. Lividity is

14:37

a measure of time of death. When

14:39

we die, certain processes

14:42

in our bodies stop. The heart stops

14:44

functioning, blood stops

14:46

moving around, and the

14:48

blood itself. Similar to

14:50

when you give blood at a blood bank. The

14:53

blood is about solid

14:56

material red cells, white cells,

14:58

and platelets and plasma

15:00

on top of the yellow tinge clear fluid.

15:03

From the time of our birth to Tommy Dye, the

15:05

heart not only pumps blood around but also

15:08

churns it up. So when blood

15:10

comes out, one sees red blood and you don't see

15:12

the separation. When blood

15:14

goes into a bag in a blood

15:16

bank, after a few minutes, one sees

15:18

the solid materials settling

15:21

down, so you have all the red cells and

15:23

the majority of the slaw material coming

15:25

to the bottom of

15:27

the volume. That's

15:29

what happens after death. After we

15:31

die, the blood, instead

15:33

of being well churned up, starts settling out,

15:36

with the red blood cells, white

15:38

blood cells, and platelets settling to

15:40

the bottom by

15:42

gravity. So whatever part

15:44

of the body is downward

15:47

against the ground, we'll get

15:49

a bluish purple

15:51

color of the settled

15:54

red blood cells. That's called lividity.

15:57

And why is this so important in

15:59

the case of stacy states because

16:01

it tells two things to the medical

16:03

examine the coroner coming to the scene.

16:07

The first thing we look for always

16:09

is did the person die here?

16:12

Was the body moved after death? Just an

16:14

automatic initial impression. When

16:16

we see inappropriate lividity

16:19

that is lying on the back, as

16:22

occurred here, but the discoloration

16:25

is in the front, it means

16:27

that that individual the decesions

16:30

here was laying face down for

16:33

at least four or five hours

16:35

for the blood to settle, causing the

16:38

bluish discoloration of lividity.

16:41

She could not have died in that position.

16:43

If she had died in that position, all

16:45

the lividity would be near the ground.

16:48

And that's a certainty. That's that's a certain This

16:51

is a change in the body that

16:54

happens to everybody after death. But just

16:56

the laws of gravity. But for the lividity

16:58

to settle and not turn. If

17:01

a body is moved within an hour after

17:03

death, it's like when the snow

17:05

blow that you let the snow settle

17:07

the bottom and you turn it over, and that settles in the

17:09

other direction. If in an

17:11

hour or two one turns the body

17:14

over, then all the blood goes in

17:16

the other direction. But after

17:18

four or five hours, the lividity

17:20

becomes fixed because

17:23

the red blood cells started going out of the blood

17:25

vessels and well, so that if you turn it over

17:27

after four or five hours, the inappropriate

17:30

lividity will remain,

17:33

it won't disappear. So

17:35

in order for us to see the

17:37

lividity on the front, not only

17:40

was she laying face down, but she was laying

17:42

face down in these circumstances at least four or

17:44

five hours, So we could tell

17:46

from that that she was moved

17:49

from a place that she was laying face down, and

17:52

that she had to be in one position for at least

17:54

four or five hours before she was moved.

17:57

Another thing that happens when we die is that

17:59

the tissues start to decompose

18:01

because it's not getting usual oxygen supply.

18:04

So the first tissues

18:06

that decompose are the lining cells

18:08

of the mouth, the nose, and also the intestinal

18:11

track. They just start dying

18:14

in the nose and mouth. The dying tissues

18:17

mix up with whatever fluids

18:19

are present and a thick

18:22

maroon type discharge

18:24

will occur. She had to

18:26

be laying face forward and nose

18:29

a mouth free for fluids to leak

18:31

out, and this would happen in

18:33

a car. The purge fluids

18:36

were in the passenger

18:38

side, and that would

18:40

be coming out of her nose and mouth, and

18:42

the lividity would be developing

18:45

to some extent on the fact that she's leaning forward.

18:48

In this case, since the prosecution

18:52

argument is that the defendant

18:54

met her at three am and

18:56

she died after three am, laying

18:59

in one position for at least four

19:01

or five hours until eight am,

19:04

and there's evidence that she was dead in the car

19:06

before because in the car one has

19:08

purge fluids, so she's

19:11

dead for at least four hours before

19:13

she's taken out of the car. And of course we

19:15

know that the car was found at five am,

19:17

so it actually is not possible. This scenario

19:20

cannot have happened. You can't have five hours

19:22

and two hours, that's right. The lividity

19:26

and the purge fluids of the car

19:29

would establish that she was dead

19:31

laying face down closer to midnight,

19:34

but definitely before three o'clock in the morning. The

19:36

fiance, Jimmy Finel, and his own words

19:38

under oath a trial. He stated

19:40

that he was home with her from eight pm the night

19:42

before until she

19:45

left for work around three in the

19:47

morning the next day. And

19:49

I think you've made it very clear that it is your

19:52

expert opinion, um to

19:54

a degree of a very high degree of certainty,

19:56

that that was the time that she was murdered.

19:58

It is my opinion that she

20:01

was murdered and strangled well

20:04

before three am, closer to midnight,

20:07

ah, and that

20:10

Mr Finel was there. Maybe

20:13

somebody else came in and did it. I can't say

20:15

that he did it, except that he was the only one there.

20:18

How certain are you that

20:20

Rodney could not have committed this crime? I

20:23

am certain beyond

20:26

all reasonable doubts that

20:29

she was dead before she

20:32

could possibly have met with Rodney,

20:35

that he could not possibly have strangled

20:37

Stacy after three o'clock

20:40

in the morning to a reasonable

20:42

certainly. Maybe we're up from that.

20:46

As far as any testimony

20:48

in any trial, in the standards

20:50

used, he could not have committed the crime.

20:54

If this execution goes forward,

20:57

how are you going to process that information?

21:00

It would be terrible number of ways.

21:02

Number One, there are people when executed

21:05

who turned out to be innocent. Clearly,

21:08

even if he's exonerated, it's horrible that he's

21:10

been in prison for so long, during

21:13

which time, whoever the real murderer

21:15

is free to go about harming

21:18

other people. I

21:31

want to talk about the fact that this officer

21:34

had a

21:37

very troubling history of misconduct,

21:40

and that, in fact, sometime

21:42

after Rodney's arrest

21:44

and conviction, Jimmy himself

21:46

was arrested and convicted. Yeah,

21:49

and I think we need to go back and just look at who

21:52

Jimmy Finel was at the time

21:54

and who he continues to be. Even

21:57

before the time of the murder, there

21:59

were lines that things weren't right with Jimmy.

22:02

Um in February

22:04

of this is two

22:07

months a little more before the murder,

22:09

there's an incident in which he chases

22:12

down a young Hispanic man in the small

22:14

town that they he's a patrol officer. He's

22:16

alleged to have beat him and

22:19

put a gun to this kid's

22:21

head. He was sued for that,

22:23

alleging police misconduct and

22:25

police brutality. That suit was settled.

22:28

So he had a record of misconduct.

22:31

And that's just not even be half of it. Just

22:33

looking from the time around the

22:35

murder, a woman that Jimmy Finnell

22:37

was dating in Gettings described

22:40

him as emotionally abusive,

22:43

possessive, virulent

22:45

ly racist, and when she broke

22:47

off with him, the relationship. He stalked

22:49

her. You know, I remember one

22:52

day, you know, opened up the newspaper

22:54

and reading about Finelle's rest

22:56

for a alleged

22:58

sexual assault while on patrol,

23:01

and he ultimately pled guilty too

23:04

related charges that arose from

23:06

an incident in which he was called out to assist

23:09

a young woman and instead of helping

23:12

her, drove her out, kidnapped

23:14

her, raped her, and

23:16

then dropped her back off in the situation

23:19

that he was supposed to protect her from.

23:21

She with just incredible

23:23

bravery, calls nine one

23:25

and one and reports it. And

23:28

what happens. Jimmy Finnell comes back out,

23:31

intercepts her, arrests

23:33

her, and thankfully of the police ultimately

23:35

took this seriously and Finell

23:38

was prosecuted and convicted,

23:40

fled guilty to charges, served essentially

23:44

every day of a ten year since he

23:50

was quote unquote one

23:52

of the state's finest a police officer. You

23:55

know, and these things happen. You know, you

23:57

have police killings here, killing innocent

24:00

people, you know, unto people, and the first thing

24:02

they say, they put in fear for their lives.

24:04

But then here you have this police officer that's

24:06

that's uh, it

24:09

wasn't a fear for his life, didn't give a damn

24:11

about life, and up

24:14

until the time he got convicted of the crime, he just

24:16

got released from Uh. I

24:20

feel like the state enabled him that. I mean, they

24:22

should have been keeping an eye on it. When did you learn

24:24

about Jimmy being arrested and charged

24:27

with kidnapping and rape, which happened

24:29

about ten years after you were convicted?

24:31

Yeah, because it's on TV. No.

24:34

I was listening to the radio. We don't have television

24:36

here, you know, I listened to an

24:38

hour on the hour, you know, and just

24:41

so happened. I was and I heard

24:43

them talking about an officer being arrested

24:45

for sexual assault Williamson

24:48

County. And it was getting close in club, and

24:51

it would said Jimmy for Neil. I tried to kick

24:53

the door off the engines. I was like, I was elated,

24:56

you know, I was kind of amped

24:58

up. Really did you think they were at him? Uh?

25:04

Yeah. I It

25:07

wasn't until later on my attorneys

25:10

within this project really start

25:12

digging into that and

25:14

pulling up the information, and I was like, well,

25:18

okay, he's charged with this, But then they

25:21

found out that he was under investigation

25:23

in it they found out about these

25:25

other cases that he had been charged with,

25:28

that his fellow officers pushed on the rug

25:30

for him. You know, like, there's

25:32

no way this, this can't be happening. So

25:35

even the law enforcement day to see that he worked

25:38

for was protecting him. Yeah, in your case,

25:40

we know that it was his best friend on the forest who

25:43

was one of the lead investigators.

25:49

When you look at the police investigation,

25:52

this was not a one offensive. Police

25:55

reports indicate that he had uh

25:58

credible allegations of raping

26:01

at least one other woman in his custody

26:04

and a pattern of abuse

26:06

and sexual misconduct that

26:09

went back years. One

26:11

of the police reports talking about

26:13

the rape allegations, where he was on patrol,

26:16

he rapes a woman and then gives her

26:18

his card, saying, you know, you want to

26:20

go out on another date. And

26:23

so this is not somebody who's at

26:25

least the evidence shows, is tied to reality

26:28

and somebody that we should be concerned

26:31

about. I read somewhere that

26:34

Officer Finelle, then Officer Finelle

26:37

had been overheard by a fellow

26:39

officer bragging

26:41

or exclaiming that

26:44

if he ever found Stacy

26:46

cheating on him, he would strangle her with a belt.

26:48

Is that true? Yeah, So he was

26:50

in a police training class. Um

26:53

he was a rookie cop when all this went down, and

26:56

a classmate of his was

26:58

sort of in some sort of an argument with him,

27:00

and he said, well, you know, if I ever catch

27:03

my girlfriend cheating on me, um

27:05

me, I'd kill her. And she made

27:07

some response about how he would be you

27:09

know, identified or something. He said, no, they'll

27:12

never give my fingerprints. I'll strangler with

27:14

a belt, um which

27:16

you know obviously, where you have Stacy strangled

27:18

with a belt is just, you

27:21

know, hard to understand. But then you've

27:23

got to put that in the context of everything

27:26

that the police reports indicated about Jimmy

27:28

and everything we subsequently know when

27:31

he talked to the police about this

27:34

case early on, his

27:36

statement was riddled with inconsistencies.

27:39

The morning she disappeared, but

27:42

before her body was found, took

27:44

out all the money in his bank account. Then

27:47

the fact that two eyewitnesses

27:49

have recently come forward and

27:52

submitted signed affid David's an

27:55

insurance salesperson who said that Vanelle

27:57

threatened to kill Stacy while

28:00

ing for life insurance. A deputy in

28:02

the Lee County Sheriff's Office at the time of the murder,

28:04

who fenilimated a criminating statement

28:06

too at Stacy's funeral, and

28:10

Vanelle's best friend at the time of the murder,

28:12

Bass Trip. Sheriff's deputy Curtis

28:15

Davis, has now revealed that Finnelle gave

28:17

an inconsistent account of where he was on

28:19

the night of the murder. He claimed

28:22

to Officer Davis that he was out laid drinking,

28:24

and he later testified at trial that he had spent a quiet

28:26

evening at home with Stites at

28:28

their apartment during what we now know to be the

28:30

time of her death, based on no

28:33

less than Dr Michael Boden's testimony.

28:36

When asked to explain this discrepancy,

28:39

Finelle invoked his Fifth Amendment rights declined

28:42

to testify to a void possible self acrimination.

28:44

So all of this adds

28:47

up to a mountain of ship.

28:57

Also, um, the breaking news

28:59

is that there's a confession right that someone

29:02

who was in prison with him has now come forward and signed

29:04

it up for David, saying that Jimmy confessed to

29:06

this fellow that he was in prison with that

29:08

he had actually strangled her. Many

29:17

of you know Dr Phil for his accomplishments,

29:20

his legendary career in TV

29:22

and entertainment. But what you may not know

29:25

is that he was the founder of Courtroom

29:27

Sciences, the first organization

29:30

that made a science out of

29:32

jury selection and other courtroom

29:35

practices that lead to the type

29:37

of outcomes that we all want, which is the

29:39

right person getting convicted. You

29:42

have made a very conscious decision to

29:44

use your personal capital, your

29:46

name value, your own financial resources,

29:49

and most of all, your time to fly around the

29:51

country to spend hours and hours

29:54

helping someone who a few weeks

29:56

ago was a total stranger to you. What's

29:59

going on here? Why are you so passionately

30:01

devoted to trying to save Rodney

30:04

Reid's life? And I don't and that's not hyperbole.

30:06

Well, I went down and

30:08

spoke to the man, and

30:12

I did not go in there presuming he

30:15

was innocent or guilty.

30:17

I went down to talk to him, and I looked

30:19

the man in the eye and asked

30:22

him a lot of in depth questions, asked

30:24

him some questions that there were right or wrong answers

30:27

to in terms of whether he was telling the truth

30:29

or not. I came away feeling

30:31

like he was

30:34

definitely a man of

30:36

integrity and was

30:38

clearly being victimized here, and

30:42

I really tried to be empathetic

30:45

and thought, if

30:47

I was in that situation, or

30:50

one of my sons, which

30:52

I have to we're in that situation,

30:56

what would I hope and pray

30:58

someone would do. And

31:01

so I came back and

31:03

really dove into the science

31:05

and the evidence here, and I was appalled

31:09

at what I found. This man has

31:11

not had due process. I mean, he's not

31:13

had a fair trial yet, and they've

31:15

taken twenty two and a half years of this

31:17

man's life. And who knows what he would have done in those

31:19

twenty two years. You know, maybe

31:22

he would have saved some people's lives.

31:24

Maybe he would have gone to a rack, Maybe

31:27

he would have been a paramedic and save

31:29

lives. Maybe he would have been a thief and

31:31

gotten shot. Who know, You don't know what

31:33

somebody would have done. But he had the right

31:35

to find out, He had

31:37

the right to make those choices

31:39

and know, and that was taken from him.

31:42

And I frankly

31:44

don't think this was a close call. I

31:47

don't know whether he did it or didn't do it.

31:49

I don't think it was a close call. And if you

31:52

watched the two hours that we

31:54

devoted this on the air. I

31:56

brought on the defense lawyer for

32:00

or her fiance. I

32:02

brought him on, and I gave him a platform

32:05

to speak from. I spoke to him after the show, away

32:07

from the cameras, and he does believe Rodney

32:09

Reed is guilty. And I let him

32:12

speak and he said every

32:14

every reason that he thought I gave people

32:16

that I did not bury

32:19

the negatives. I looked at both

32:21

sides of this, and then I looked at the

32:23

science and it was very clear

32:25

to me he couldn't have

32:27

done this. Even if

32:29

he was the kind of character that would

32:31

have done this, he couldn't have

32:33

done this. And I don't believe

32:35

he's a kind of character that would have done this. I

32:39

didn't know him at the time, but I

32:41

know him now and I believe

32:43

he is a good man that would be a good addition

32:45

to this world, in this community. And

32:49

I just felt like, you know, I can't look this man

32:51

in the eye, know what I know in

32:53

my heart from the training that I have,

32:56

and go home and go to dinner. How

33:00

do you do that? How do you know what

33:02

you know and don't

33:05

do something about it. You can't.

33:07

I know it, that's for sure. First

33:09

they sighted some DNA evidence. They said

33:12

there was Rodney sperm

33:14

found inside her body.

33:17

And to me, that's a lie biomission

33:20

because supposedly a rape

33:22

took place at three am

33:25

the morning that she died. Now

33:27

they found her body at approximately

33:30

three in the afternoon, about twelve hours later.

33:33

At that time, had he raped her,

33:35

there would have been million of spermatozoa

33:38

still viable inside her body. There

33:41

were three sperm heads,

33:44

which means they had deteriorated to the point

33:46

that the bodies had fallen off the heads, and

33:50

there were the three little microscopic

33:52

heads in there. So that's

33:54

about, you know, anywhere between

33:56

three and and ten million off

34:00

of the count of what it would

34:02

be if he had had sex

34:04

with her at the time that she was

34:06

supposedly raped and killed. But

34:08

they had been seeing each other and and

34:10

he said he had sex with her before, And

34:13

was that relationship real or did he just

34:15

make that up? Well, people

34:17

he knows knew about it, people she knows

34:19

knew about it, People that he didn't

34:21

know knew about it. So people from

34:24

both of their lives. They lived in two different worlds,

34:26

and people in both worlds that didn't know each

34:28

other both knew about their relationship.

34:31

So the fact that they had a relationship to

34:33

me is confirmed by people

34:35

who don't know each other telling the same story.

34:38

That explains to me the sperm

34:40

in her body. Then when

34:42

they found their body, the science

34:44

of deterioration, lividity,

34:47

the deterioration of the skin, what they

34:49

found in the truck, in terms of

34:51

bodily fluids that had had

34:53

come up, all the things that you know

34:56

are on a timeline from death. This

34:59

simply didn't match that

35:01

she had been dead for twelve hours

35:03

when they found the body. It suggested she had

35:05

been dead a whole lot longer than that. And

35:08

she wasn't with Rodney

35:10

during those earlier hours. She was with someone

35:12

else. That is not contested. So

35:16

if she was killed hours

35:18

before they say she was killed,

35:21

which the science says is true, he

35:24

didn't do it. He wasn't

35:26

with her, nobody says

35:28

he was with her, then she was with somebody else,

35:32

and that is uncontested. There

35:34

were no fingerprints in the truck. They

35:36

didn't test for d N A. Of course

35:38

we now contest for contact DNA, etcetera,

35:41

etcetera. But there they didn't find any

35:43

evidence of him being in that truck whatsoever. And

35:47

there's just no evidence that connects

35:49

him with that crime, and there is

35:52

evidence that connects other people to that crime.

35:54

So if you believe these

35:57

world class, world

35:59

renewed round experts

36:01

that have done thousands and thousands

36:04

of autopsies, they

36:06

say it's not possible that needed it. So given

36:09

the science, he was not

36:11

with her when she was killed. Game

36:14

over. Roderick

36:33

Read and his wife Juanna have put

36:35

everything careers, social

36:37

lives, personal matters on

36:40

hold to advocate for Rodney and

36:42

found time to sit down with me. Roderick,

36:46

welcome to law conviction.

36:48

I'm sorry you're here, but hopefully

36:50

we'll be able to help make a difference together

36:52

and get the justice that we all want

36:55

for Rodney. I wanted to ask you

36:57

about growing up with

36:59

your older brother. What was your childhood

37:02

like with it a happy childhood? Oh yeah, we

37:04

had a good childhood. A

37:06

matter of fact, I come from a large family. I

37:08

got five brothers, five

37:10

brothers. Rodney is the fourth and nine I'm

37:13

the fifth. You always want a little

37:15

brother, and when I came along, he had one and he

37:17

doated over me. He's been there every

37:19

part of my life, he says. I

37:21

can remember up until when

37:26

they convicted this crime. So, and

37:30

when did you find out about Stacy's

37:32

murder? We found about it out about

37:35

it over the news, and uh Me

37:37

and Rodney talked about it, and and

37:39

his assumption was, I bet you I know

37:42

that Jimmy Vanille did this, you

37:44

know. And that's when I said, Mancy,

37:46

I told you, you know, That's when I told

37:48

you sold Star. But at that

37:51

time we had no idea.

37:54

We never dreamed Rodney would

37:56

be charged for Stacy's murder. What was

37:58

that saying that your cousin had that that,

38:01

you know, almost portends this horrible

38:03

scenario. It's never good

38:06

to know adair white woman. Something to

38:08

that effect. It's profound and

38:11

chilling when you think about how

38:13

it actually played out in real

38:15

life. UM, knowing

38:18

the history of how

38:20

many black men were lynched

38:23

for allegedly having sex,

38:25

whether they did or didn't, with a white

38:27

woman, and those weren't even cases

38:29

in which an officer of the law was imposed,

38:31

as if fiance or anything else. Um

38:34

And in fact, I can't help saying

38:36

this. It feels like we're

38:38

doing everything we can to prevent it. But if

38:40

this, if the State of Texas

38:43

goes forward. This execution, it's hard to

38:45

call it anything other than a modern day lynching.

38:48

It's exactly what it is. It's murder.

38:51

In my eyes, they committed

38:54

crimes when they convicted my brother,

38:57

by withholding evidence, by not giving

38:59

them fair trial, by not testing

39:02

all the dinner, and now they said

39:04

the site taking his life. And

39:07

that is something that I cannot just sit

39:09

back and say nothing or do nothing

39:11

about. That's something that I have

39:14

to with every

39:16

fiber in my body, stand

39:18

up against and just get

39:20

his story out here, to do all that I can do.

39:23

You know, That's what me and my family,

39:25

that's what we're striving to do all that we

39:28

can do. And you are doing all that you can do. And

39:30

it's become a major national

39:33

news story and a major cause as

39:36

more and more people have become aware

39:38

that this is such a only

39:41

tragic mischaracter justice, but also such

39:43

an obvious mischaracter justice. You've

39:45

been out there, you've been meeting with everybody,

39:48

You've been on TV shows,

39:50

you've been with sister Helen, You've been criss

39:52

crossing the country dropping everything else

39:55

that that's important to you to to

39:57

fight this fight. Yeah, and my hats off to you.

40:00

How much hope do you have that justice

40:02

will be delayed

40:05

but not denied in this case. I'm

40:08

very confident that after

40:12

the world sees this because

40:15

I'm a back up my mom.

40:19

Quote my mom,

40:21

when they convicted my brother on that day,

40:25

she said, y'all

40:27

may do whatever you're gonna try to do to my

40:29

baby, but I guarantee you the

40:32

whole world will know about it. And

40:37

when she said that, I

40:40

didn't realize that

40:42

that's what really what it was going to take.

40:45

So I have great hope and

40:48

in faith and confidence

40:51

that my brother will be vindicated

40:54

and he is going to come home alive and well.

40:57

I believe that. I have to believe that. I can't

40:59

put nothing negati him in my mind. I

41:01

can't use

41:03

my energy in that way. I

41:06

believe it too. And we're you know, there's there's

41:08

so many good people involved in this

41:10

fight now, and it's growing every day.

41:12

It's growing every day, every day and any

41:15

day. And credit to you for for driving

41:18

that that forward. So Roger,

41:21

people are listening. Now. What can

41:23

somebody's sitting home here? What can I do? First

41:25

off, I tell everybody contact

41:28

Governor Greg Abbott, Okay,

41:31

call his office, writer's

41:33

office, do the same with

41:35

Ken Paxton, the Board of Pardons

41:38

and Paroles. Contact them, Contact

41:41

even Brian Gertz Bastop

41:43

County District Attorney's Office. Pass

41:45

the word. Tell everybody, Tag

41:48

everybody on your social media sites. Help

41:50

us get this word out, tell the story.

41:53

Tell the story. Refer people to

41:55

our website. Facebook Forward,

41:58

slash read just as initiative. That's

42:00

the Famine's website. My mom Sandraw

42:03

read is a president. Get with

42:05

us so once again, that's Facebook

42:07

dot com. Slash read Justice Initiative

42:10

at Facebook dot com. Slash

42:12

read Justice Initiative for the Innocence

42:14

Project dot org. Follow at Innocence

42:16

Project. On Instagram posting about

42:19

Rodney every day. I'm posting

42:21

about him just about every day on

42:23

my Instagram at It's Jason

42:25

Flam. I appreciate you being

42:27

here too, you know, to shed

42:30

light on this terrible injustice

42:32

and to try to, you know, raise more

42:34

awareness. Maybe there's someone listening who

42:36

who knows the governor or who has outreach,

42:40

someone who's listening who can write an article

42:42

or blog or do whatever it is,

42:45

or raise attention, raise

42:47

hell, because if not, it's

42:49

going to be a very bad day in Texas

42:52

and in America at

42:55

this point, we have a feature

42:57

in this show. It's my favorite

43:00

part of the show, and this is the part of the

43:02

show that I call closing arguments. It's where,

43:04

first of all, I thank you Roger for coming

43:07

to New York, being here in the studio with us,

43:09

doing everything that you're doing, and now

43:12

I get to kick back and

43:15

turn my microphone off and leave it

43:17

up to you for what I call closing

43:19

arguments. What I want

43:21

everybody to know is that read

43:24

just as initiative, it's not

43:26

just about Rotteney. It's about

43:28

other people that find themselves

43:30

in a similar situation. We're about

43:33

getting justice for not

43:35

just for Rotting, but for Stacy, and

43:37

we want to help anybody out there that we can

43:39

help along the way. But just know

43:41

that right now, after we get riding

43:43

at home, we're gonna be there to help anybody

43:45

that needs help in the capacity that

43:48

we can. When we first started

43:50

this thing, it was all about Rotteney. Now we see

43:52

that, hey, there's a million of the Rodney

43:54

reads out there, and with the firing tenacity

43:57

that we haven't bringing Rodney home, we're gonna

43:59

have the same tenacity as

44:01

seeking justice and abolishing the

44:03

death PI, that's what we want to do. Amen.

44:07

Once again closing arguments with Price

44:09

Benjet, We at the Innocence Project

44:11

are continuing to work on this case. Literally,

44:14

we will be filing

44:16

appeals in every court available,

44:19

and we will investigate

44:21

leads. So if there are folks out there who

44:24

may know something who have

44:26

not come forward, please reach

44:28

out that the Innocence Project dot

44:31

org and there is a

44:33

petition that you can sign up for, but

44:35

you can also send an email generally

44:37

which will ultimately get to me about any

44:39

information that you have. Again, we

44:42

this is an active investigation. Www.

44:45

Dot Innocence Project dot org. Put Rodney

44:47

read in the subject line Bryce

44:49

ben Jet as our guest and as Rodney's

44:52

lead attorney. We will investigate

44:54

information that we get. And and obviously

44:57

this is a concern for everybody in

44:59

our society because when

45:01

we enforce a judgment

45:03

like this, it is in the name of

45:05

the people. UM. And so

45:08

if this is something that

45:10

you are not comfortable with, and I don't think you

45:12

should be, UM, you should

45:14

make your voice hurt and uh

45:17

stand up for what's right in a case like this.

45:20

Dr Phil, you know we're

45:22

sitting here in November and Thanksgivings

45:29

and two Christmases have

45:31

gone by with Rodney

45:33

Reid not

45:35

being able to touch a

45:38

member of his family. And

45:42

twenty two Thanksgivings and twenty two Christmases

45:45

have gone by with him thinking that

45:48

all the people that he does see are

45:51

there to kill him.

45:53

They're just waiting for a green light to

45:55

take his life. And

45:58

I am convinced that

46:00

he's there with the full knowledge that he

46:02

did not do the crime that

46:05

he's in there for. And

46:07

we have an opportunity to mark

46:10

this holiday season by

46:12

giving him the gift of his life back.

46:15

And you know, sometimes we

46:18

think that in this world we're

46:20

born, live and die and never

46:22

make a difference. This

46:25

is one of those times that you can make a difference.

46:27

It doesn't take money, it doesn't take

46:29

time. It distakes your

46:32

presence and you

46:34

stepping up and saying I stand

46:36

with Rodney Reid and all the

46:38

other people that want him out

46:41

of prison. And that includes

46:43

law enforcement officers,

46:46

state and federal legislators,

46:49

people from all walks of life.

46:51

Let's do a good thing. The governor

46:54

of Texas is a former judge, and

46:57

I think he's a fair man, and I think

47:00

he hears enough of us speak in a respectful

47:02

way. I haven't gone to Austin

47:04

and made a big grandstand show, running

47:07

up the steps of the capital with my hair on fire,

47:10

trying to embarrass the governor and all that. I haven't

47:12

done that. I've been very respectful in the way that

47:14

we've gone about this, and

47:16

I intend to continue to do so if

47:21

we keep making progress here and

47:24

now is the time to step up and

47:27

make a difference. We're coming up

47:29

on three million signatures for

47:31

this petition for clemency. I

47:33

would sure like to see that at ten million, there's

47:35

a point at which they simply cannot

47:38

ignore the outcry.

47:41

Let's take this time to give him the

47:43

gift of his life back. And

47:45

now, with a heavy heart,

47:48

but with optimism, I

47:50

am going to introduce our

47:52

featured guest, Rodney

47:54

Read. One thing that

47:56

I really missed was really being a father to

47:59

my kids, you

48:01

know, and

48:04

and really they have an opportunity to be the grandfather

48:06

to my grandchildren, you know. I

48:10

just look forward to being out

48:13

there with my family, with

48:15

my friends, with my loved one, with my supporters.

48:18

I would really love to meet all my supporters because

48:23

I feel that the support that has

48:25

been generated behind me, and that's

48:27

been a real push to keep me going. You

48:29

know when I when I read

48:32

their mail, read their letters. A

48:34

lot of them I don't respond to, you

48:36

know, but then there's

48:39

there's so much mail. I really don't have time to respond

48:41

to all them because then I have to I do have to get

48:43

sleep, trying to get some sleep.

48:45

But knowing

48:49

that the people that are behind

48:51

me, that are advocating

48:53

for me, you know, I can name

48:55

them all. Julie, Judy,

48:58

Tiffany very bad. Uh. Yeah,

49:02

they're on my real push. And my mom,

49:04

my brothers uh and

49:09

my my daughter. My granddaughter's a beautiful

49:11

smile. You know that that that that

49:13

keeps me, that inspires me. When I see

49:15

a beautiful smile, I

49:19

look forward to holding him before

49:21

they get too damn big. Uh.

49:25

There's just so much, so much State

49:29

of tex Is trying to take

49:32

my life, trying to execute me. Just drive me to a table

49:34

and in jack my body with

49:36

with poisons. Don't sit

49:39

back and just let this happen. Just stay

49:42

up, stay involved, don't

49:49

forget to give us a fantastic review wherever

49:51

you get your podcasts. It really helps.

49:54

And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence

49:56

Project, and I really hope you'll join me in

49:58

supporting this very importan and cause

50:00

and helping to prevent future wrongful

50:02

convictions. Go to Innocence Project

50:04

dot org to learn how to donate and get

50:07

involved. I'd like to thank our production

50:09

team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis.

50:11

The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

50:14

nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

50:16

sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful

50:18

Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful

50:20

Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction

50:23

with Jason Flam is a production of Lava

50:25

for Good Podcasts in association with

50:27

Signal Company Number one