0:02

In the summer of nineteen ninety five, twenty

0:04

one year old single mom Christine Bunch

0:06

was living in a trailer in Greensburg, Indiana,

0:09

with her three year old son Tony. In

0:11

the early morning hours of July thirtieth,

0:14

an electrical fire began between the roof

0:16

and the ceiling tiles. When the fire

0:18

caused one of the ceiling tiles to fall in

0:20

Tony's bedroom, a cloud of carbon

0:23

monoxide gas killed the little

0:25

boy before the fire even could.

0:27

Christine awoke in a carbon monoxide

0:29

haze, desperately trying to save Tony.

0:32

After failed attempts at extinguishing the

0:34

fire, she ran for help. Then

0:37

she smashed Tony's bedroom window, but

0:39

it was too late. She was barefoot,

0:42

homeless, and deep in despair.

0:45

Arson investigator Brian Frank

0:48

used what is widely now known as

0:50

junk science to point the blame

0:52

for Tony's death squarely at Christine.

0:55

So six days after losing her

0:57

three year old boy and nearly everything

1:00

she ever had, Christine lost

1:02

her freedom as well. With no

1:04

potential alibi or eyewitnesses,

1:06

the state easily sealed Christine's

1:09

fate with the testimony of Brian

1:11

Frank and ATF forensic analyst

1:13

William Kinnard. Christine gave

1:15

birth to her son, Trent, just a few months

1:17

after being sent to prison and a decade

1:20

passed before her attorney and a team

1:22

from the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern

1:24

University uncovered an egregious Brady

1:27

violation and blatantly false testimony,

1:30

freeing Christine after seventeen

1:32

years, one month and sixteen days

1:35

behind bars. This it's

1:37

Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom.

1:54

Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason

1:57

Flom. That's me, of course, and today

1:59

you're going to hear a story that's as heartbreaking

2:01

and tragic as it was preventable,

2:04

and it's a remarkable look inside

2:06

the systemic flaws as well as human errors

2:08

that lead to wrongful convictions. And

2:11

in this particular case, we're going

2:13

to be telling the story and hearing

2:16

the story of one of my absolute

2:19

favorite human beings, a personal hero

2:21

of mine, who is doing amazing,

2:23

amazing things in the world right

2:25

now, today and every day. And so

2:28

I am thrilled and honored to

2:30

have with us on the show today, Christine

2:33

Bunch, Thank you so much. I'm happy to be

2:35

here and with Christine as someone whose

2:37

name you'll probably recognize, Ron Safe

2:40

for Ron is a former US

2:42

attorney turned corporate lawyer turned

2:44

justice fighter, and you'll recognize

2:46

him because he was a huge part

2:48

of the exoneration of Julie

2:51

Ray, an episode that I'll never

2:53

forget, and I hope, if I haven't heard it,

2:55

that you'll go back and take a listen. Anyway, Ron,

2:58

welcome back to

3:00

be here. Thank you, Jason. So let's

3:02

get right into it. Christine, you grew

3:04

up in Indiana, right, I did.

3:07

Things took a crazy turn

3:09

one my parents divorced, but for

3:11

the most part I was happy and it

3:14

was good. Now, at the time

3:16

of this unimaginable tragedy,

3:19

you were just a young

3:21

mother living in a trailer, working

3:23

hard, going to school, just starting your life,

3:26

just twenty one years old, right, that's correct.

3:28

I was working and going to school, and

3:31

I had a beautiful three year old son named Tony.

3:34

And then the worst nightmare that any

3:37

parent can possibly have or wake up

3:39

to in a cold sweat,

3:41

and some of us probably have had that experience, but

3:43

it actually happened to you. And

3:46

Ron, can you tell us about that awful

3:48

morning of June thirtieth, nineteen ninety

3:50

five. What happened was Christine

3:54

and Tony had gone to sleep

3:56

together on a couch in the

3:59

living room area of the trailer.

4:02

Before Christine woke up,

4:04

Tony had moved to the front room,

4:06

which was a separate room from the living room.

4:10

Christine awoke to

4:13

a sound and a

4:16

small fire. She

4:18

was disoriented,

4:21

but she saw the small fire and

4:24

she tried to put it out with a

4:26

pillow and couldn't do

4:29

that, so she tried

4:31

to smother the fire with a blanket,

4:34

and that didn't work either. Carbon

4:37

monoxide is intoxicating.

4:40

Christine was undoubtedly affected

4:43

by this carbon monoxide. She's trying to

4:45

put out the fire. She can't

4:47

find the fire extinguisher.

4:50

She knows where the fire extinguisher is,

4:52

she can't find it. So by

4:55

that time, the fire had

4:57

grown into a wall between

5:00

wean her and Tony, and she could not get

5:02

to him. So she frantically

5:04

went out of the trailer, tried to

5:06

get help, and then tried to break

5:08

the window into the front room

5:11

so that she could get to Tony, but

5:13

it was too late, and

5:16

Tony had perished. It's

5:19

impossible to even conceive of

5:21

the horror and the panic in

5:24

a time like that, even if you didn't have kids, like

5:26

waking up to a fire. Christine,

5:29

what are your memories of that awful

5:31

night now twenty five years ago. I

5:34

think the thing that sits with me the most is it

5:37

was just normal. I

5:39

came home from school, and I

5:42

got Tony from the babysitter, and we

5:44

went home and we cooked, and I

5:48

think we watched some TV

5:50

and did some laundry, and we fell

5:52

asleep. I'd read him a story and he

5:54

wasn't feeling really well, and we fell

5:56

asleep on the couch under the air conditioner,

6:00

and everything just seemed normal.

6:03

You didn't realize that you were going

6:05

to wake up in your whole world would

6:08

be turned upside down. Yeah.

6:11

I mean, your whole world was really

6:14

destroyed at

6:16

a time when the community

6:18

and the system should have been

6:20

coming to help you in

6:23

every conceivable way. Instead,

6:26

you were exposed to and victimized

6:29

by the worst that the system

6:31

and our society has to offer. And it's so

6:33

important that you're here now because

6:35

this arson quote

6:38

unquote science that they used in order

6:40

to frame you and wrongfully convict

6:42

you for a crime that never even

6:45

happened is something that we need

6:47

to focus on because we need awareness

6:49

among everyone, because someday,

6:52

you, the listener, may find yourself on a jury

6:55

and you may be presented with this same

6:57

sort of junk science. So

7:00

fire investigation was

7:02

an apprentice art. They

7:05

were what was regarded

7:07

as common knowledge and industry

7:10

standards that were passed down from

7:13

generation to generation. Virtually

7:16

none of those conventional

7:19

wisdom were true, and

7:21

when tested by scientific

7:24

principles, they were all debunked.

7:26

Unfortunately that came too

7:28

late for Christine. And

7:31

this starts with a fire investigator

7:34

named Brian Frank. So what

7:36

Frank did was the day of

7:38

this fire, and keep in mind

7:41

this trailer was completely incinerated.

7:44

He comes into the trailer

7:46

and just plucks things

7:49

out of thin air. He

7:51

says, oh,

7:52

this, this is a

7:55

burn pattern on the floor.

7:57

That's evidence of a liquid

8:00

with the accelerant, like gasoline.

8:02

Oh, there's a V pattern

8:05

on the wall. That is fire

8:08

burns up in a V pattern.

8:11

And therefore, because there

8:13

were two of these, there were two

8:16

points of origin. A

8:18

normal accidental fire will

8:20

have one point of origin. Sometimes

8:23

if a fire is intentionally set, it

8:25

will have two points of origin. Says

8:28

oops, here the fire

8:30

burned down. That

8:33

is a sign of a liquid accelerant.

8:36

For all of these reasons, I conclude

8:39

this was not an accidental

8:41

fire. This was intentionally

8:43

set because, as you said at the beginning,

8:46

Jason, unlike many crimes

8:48

like a robbery or a

8:51

fraud or a murder, the

8:53

question in an arson is was

8:56

a crime even committed? And

8:58

upon that threshold question

9:01

rests the lives of hundreds

9:03

of people, including Christine.

9:06

Here's what's absolutely nuts

9:09

is that to become a licensed arson

9:11

investigator, one who can testify in court, you

9:15

can take a forty hour

9:17

correspondence course. It takes

9:19

fifteen hundred hours in some places

9:21

to become a manicurist. You can't

9:24

get a barber's license in less than six

9:26

months. It's the idea that they've been

9:28

relying on these Charlottean's

9:31

you'd be better off consulting with psychics or even

9:33

just guessing. And in Christine's

9:36

case, there are so many other problems,

9:38

right. There's tunnel vision with holding

9:40

of a sculptory evidence, there's multiple

9:43

incompetent investigators who pass

9:45

themselves off as experts, and

9:47

then it goes downhill from there. So

9:49

there you are outside the house and

9:52

in minutes, in moments, your

9:54

life has gone from a good life

9:56

full of love and hope to

9:59

the worst imaginable scenario.

10:02

You're just in shock, and

10:04

you don't really believe what people are

10:06

telling you because they kept

10:08

telling me, no, you can't go in, and

10:10

no we couldn't get hit him and know

10:13

he's got alive. And of

10:16

course, as apparent, you don't want

10:18

to believe that. People

10:21

on the outside want to look at it and say,

10:23

well, if this was done differently, or

10:25

if you had acted this way.

10:29

And I mean, for myself,

10:31

I have played

10:34

it over and over and over and

10:36

over again in my mind. I still

10:38

every day that I wake up play

10:40

it over in my mind, and

10:43

I don't know how to come up with a different

10:45

scenario. When

10:48

you're in that moment and the

10:50

terror paralyizes you, you

10:54

don't know what you would do. So it's

10:56

easy to stand outside and say this

10:59

should have never happened, and somebody

11:01

has to be blamed, right,

11:04

because the alternative is incomprehensible

11:06

to most people why an innocent

11:08

baby would be taken from

11:10

us. Christine, six

11:13

days in hell, right, six

11:16

days for you between

11:18

the fire and the loss

11:20

of your child and the time that you're arrested what

11:23

were those six days? Like? What were you doing?

11:26

I went with my parents to

11:29

plan a funeral, and

11:33

my mom and dad really went

11:35

through how the service was going

11:37

to be, and I just

11:40

remember sitting there and crying, and

11:42

then I told him that I wanted a song

11:44

played something that I, you

11:47

know, sang with Tony, and

11:50

he said, we can play whatever you want, and

11:54

then I had to go get clothes to

11:56

where to a funeral. At

11:58

that time, I was still walking around

12:00

barefoot because I'd literally

12:02

lost everything, and everybody

12:05

was trying to comfort

12:07

you and give you advice, and it

12:11

just doesn't comfort you. So

12:15

you feel more alone than ever because

12:18

you don't want to hurt their feelings, but everything

12:21

they're saying to you doesn't penetrate.

12:27

The police didn't help because

12:29

they followed me everywhere I

12:31

went and talked

12:33

to everybody after I left,

12:36

and they even showed up and my

12:38

son's funeral

12:40

and burial. They

12:43

came to me before I even got out of the hospital

12:45

and told me that it was an arson. They

12:48

literally wanted a list of all my

12:50

family and friends, anybody that could have possibly

12:52

done it. Then they come back

12:54

to me and saying, no, you're you're the person

12:57

you're under arrest for this, and

13:00

in a small town, once they make or

13:02

arrest and put a headline

13:04

on the paper in a small community,

13:08

in that community's mind, you're guilty.

13:13

So now you're arrested.

13:15

How long were you held before the trial? Were

13:17

you able to bail out? I was in

13:20

there from July sixth

13:22

to October mid October,

13:24

I bonded out on a fifty thousand

13:27

dollars cash bond. I tell

13:30

my son Trent all the time that he's

13:33

the miracle that saved me. But

13:35

when I got out, I

13:38

certainly didn't care if I lived or

13:40

died, and so I was drinking

13:42

and doing a lot of self

13:45

medicating because I just

13:47

didn't want to feel anymore.

13:51

And in the midst of that, I started

13:54

getting sick and that's when I

13:56

discovered I was pregnant. Yeah,

14:01

and that's the worst possible scenario.

14:03

Although now, as you said, it turns out

14:05

to be the thing that saved you.

14:08

And we'll get into more

14:10

of that later. But Ron,

14:12

this trial is full of I

14:15

mean again, it's horseshit. The stuff that they were

14:17

spewing from the stand. It

14:20

began with the prosecutors standing in front

14:22

of the jury and saying motive

14:25

is not an element of the crime.

14:27

We don't have to prove motive.

14:30

People tend not to commit

14:33

crimes for no reason.

14:35

And of course they investigated

14:38

Christine and her motive

14:40

for this crime, and they found that

14:42

she was a

14:45

good, loving, caring,

14:48

wonderful mother, and that she and

14:50

Tony had a beautiful relationship.

14:54

Everybody said that universally,

14:57

And so they're left with telling

14:59

the jury, Okay, Christine

15:02

committed this horrific

15:04

crime for no reason, but

15:06

we don't have to prove motive. Then

15:10

their case depended one

15:12

hundred percent on this quote

15:15

unquote expert testimony, because

15:18

Christine didn't set this fire, so

15:21

of course nobody saw

15:23

her set the fire, nobody saw

15:25

her prepare to set the fire, nobody heard

15:27

her talk about setting the fire, nobody

15:30

afterwards. There was no physical

15:32

evidence, no forensic evidence, nothing.

15:36

Of course, the trailer wasn't insured,

15:39

she lost all of her possession,

15:41

she lost, of course, the person who meant

15:43

most to her in the world. So

15:45

they were left with this

15:47

expert testimony, these

15:50

absurd fire investigation

15:53

myths, which should have and could

15:56

have been dispelled

15:58

by a defense attorney or

16:00

competent defense expert.

16:03

But there was something else that was critical

16:05

in this trial that

16:07

would have been difficult for a defense attorney

16:10

to combat. And I have to tell the audience

16:12

that this critical evidence becomes

16:14

just as important later to proving Christine's

16:16

innocence as it was in getting

16:19

her convicted. But go ahead, Ron. They

16:21

took ten samples

16:24

from the trailer, from

16:26

the floor of the trailer, from the carpet

16:28

of the trailer, from Christine's nightgown,

16:31

and they tested it for various

16:34

accelerants. There was no

16:37

gasoline. There was no inflammatory

16:40

substance of any kind on

16:43

Christine's nightgown, even though

16:45

they said that she would splash this

16:47

accelerant all around. But there were

16:50

two positive samples.

16:53

And those samples, by the way, we're given

16:55

to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and

16:57

Firearms atf who

17:00

federally investigates arson crimes,

17:03

and they have special laboratories, and they

17:05

did gas chromatography

17:08

on these samples, and

17:11

they presented evidence at

17:13

trial that there were two

17:16

positive tests for

17:19

what they called a heavy petroleum

17:21

distolate like jet

17:24

fuel or something else specifically

17:28

not kerosene, and

17:30

that was found in the living

17:33

room area and critically

17:37

in the front room, the room where

17:39

Tony was found.

17:41

Now, there is reason for

17:43

there to be kerosene in the living

17:45

room because the prior owners of this

17:48

trailer testified that

17:50

they had a kerosene heater and that they

17:53

overfilled it from time to time. Kerosene

17:55

does not evaporate, and so

17:58

even from years before, there

18:00

would be kerosene in the wood. But

18:02

there's no explanation for a heavy

18:04

petroleum distillate like jet fuel. And

18:08

there is absolutely no

18:10

innocent explanation for

18:13

there to be a heavy petroleum distillate

18:15

in the front room Tony's bedroom.

18:18

And that was critical

18:20

evidence that was not

18:23

refuted by the defense attorney.

18:26

And on the strength of that expert

18:28

testimony of end these

18:31

critical lab determinations, Christine

18:34

was convicted March fourth,

18:36

nineteen ninety six, twenty

18:39

two years old. Pregnant,

18:41

Christine is convicted of arson

18:44

and murder. Less than a month

18:46

later, she's sentenced

18:48

to two concurrent terms, sixty

18:50

years for murder and fifty years for

18:52

arson. So how pregnant were you Christine

18:55

at the time of this wrongful conviction And what

18:57

the hell was it like giving birth behind

18:59

bars? I

19:02

was almost six months pregnant.

19:06

The only thing they don't do to pregnant women

19:08

is make them wearing the belly chain and

19:10

the box because the baby's

19:13

not a prisoner. But

19:16

with so many pregnant women in there, you don't

19:18

always get soft cuffs for your

19:20

feet. So I've

19:22

got deep scars

19:24

on the back of my ankles from

19:27

wearing those metal shackles.

19:31

And then when

19:33

I finally went into labor, I

19:36

didn't really know that I was in labor because

19:38

I was just having a backache. So

19:41

they took me to the infirmary and couldn't

19:43

find a heartbeat. I lost

19:46

it. I started, you know, screaming

19:48

at them, and so I was handcuffed

19:50

and shackle then taken out into an ambulance.

19:53

And when I got to the hospital, a

19:55

doctor come in and explained that I was

19:58

having contractions and that's why they could here

20:00

the heartbeat. They

20:02

determined that I was going to have an emergency

20:04

c section, so they handcuffs

20:06

and shackles. Came home, and I got

20:08

a metal cuff on my angle

20:10

in the log chain. I

20:13

got about thirty six hours with

20:16

Trent, and then I was transferred

20:18

back to the facility and my

20:20

family took him home. The

20:29

Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of

20:31

this episode of Rawful Conviction and of

20:33

the Last Mile organization, which provides

20:36

business and tech training to help incarcerated

20:38

individuals successfully and permanently

20:40

re enter the workforce. The Pacers

20:42

Foundation is committed to improving the lives

20:44

of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting

20:47

organizations that are dedicated primarily

20:49

to helping young people and students. For

20:51

more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation

20:54

or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers

20:56

Foundation dot org or the Last Mile dot

20:58

org. This

21:03

episode is sponsored by AIG, a

21:05

leading global insurance company, and Paul

21:07

Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison,

21:10

a leading international law firm. The

21:12

AIG pro Bono Program provides free

21:14

legal services and other support to

21:16

many nonprofit organizations and individuals

21:19

most in need, and recently they announced

21:22

that working to reform the criminal justice system

21:24

will become a key pillar of the program's

21:26

mission. Paul Weiss has long

21:28

had an unwavering commitment to providing

21:30

impactful pro bono legal assistance

21:33

to the most vulnerable members of our society

21:35

and in support of the public interest, including

21:38

extensive or in the criminal justice

21:40

area. So

21:47

the good news is that there is actually

21:49

an equal or greater number of heroes

21:52

in this story than villains Betsy

21:54

Marks, Hillary po Ricks, Jamie

21:56

McAllister, and the other two actual

21:59

fire science John Dahan and

22:01

John Mululey, plus the electrical

22:03

engineer Richard Hansen. Then

22:06

Karen Daniel and Jane Raley, legends

22:09

in the field were on your side.

22:12

And of course Ron himself, Ron

22:14

Safer, I mean, the fucking cavalry

22:17

came in on this one, right. Can you talk

22:19

now about the process that led seventeen

22:22

years later to Christine finally coming

22:24

home. Yes, Christine

22:27

pursued this tirelessly

22:30

against all odds. Found

22:33

a wonderful local attorney,

22:35

Hilary bow Ricks, who believed

22:38

in Christine but really did

22:40

not have the resources to take

22:42

on the awesome power of the state, and

22:45

a supporter of Christine. Wrote a letter

22:47

to Northwestern Center on Wrongful

22:50

Convictions, and Jane Raleigh,

22:52

along with Karen Daniel, took

22:55

Christine's case and they

22:57

disassembled every

23:00

piece of evidence the state put forward.

23:03

Karen and Jane assembled the

23:05

world's experts on

23:07

fire science, not

23:10

the myths of arson investigation,

23:12

but on fire science, to prove

23:15

first that everything the state

23:17

said was wrong and then second

23:20

that Christine was innocent.

23:23

Not beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond any

23:25

doubt. So first they

23:28

got a former ATF agent

23:31

and he testified that every

23:33

one of the myths that was

23:36

used by the so called arson

23:38

investigator Brian Frank was

23:41

wrong. A V pattern does

23:43

not indicate a point of origin. It indicates

23:45

a point where something burned

23:48

against a wall. Fire burns

23:50

down not because of a liquid accelerant,

23:52

but because it's seeking oxygen

23:55

and there was a hole in the trailer. So

23:57

the burn patterns that Frank

24:00

says indicated that there was a liquid

24:02

accelerant had been disproved.

24:05

Brian Franks said that the fire was hotter

24:08

because a liquid accelerant was used.

24:10

That is a myth. Controlled

24:12

experiments prove that

24:15

fire is no hotter. Indeed,

24:17

the heat depends on what is being

24:20

burnt. So chemistry

24:23

physics disproved

24:25

every one of the pieces of evidence. But

24:28

there was one more critical thing

24:30

that Karen Daniel did that

24:32

was pivotal. She subpoenaed the

24:35

underlying test data

24:38

that had been used by the ATF lab

24:41

and all of the documents

24:43

related to those tests, and

24:46

what that bound was

24:48

stunning. First, she

24:50

got the actual gas chromatographs,

24:53

so the actual tests

24:56

and contrary to his testimony,

24:58

he did test against the standard

25:00

of kerosene, not a heavy but

25:03

kerosene. Then when

25:05

you look at those actual test

25:07

data, you find that, yes, there

25:10

was kerosene in the living room

25:12

where the kerosene heater had

25:14

been years before. But

25:17

then you look at the sample from

25:19

Tony's bedroom, the sample that

25:21

convicted Christine, and the

25:23

test was negative

25:26

for any liquid accelerate,

25:30

kerosene, heavy petroleum distillate,

25:33

nothing. What's more,

25:36

in that file, there was a

25:38

draft report that

25:40

reflected accurately

25:43

the test results, that is, that

25:45

there had been kerosene in the living room

25:47

and that the sample in Tony's

25:49

bedroom was negative. And then

25:53

there was a report that in

25:55

handwriting that crossed

25:57

that out and made that

25:59

test result positive. How

26:01

that happened, unfortunately, we'll

26:03

never know because by the time

26:06

we got to the hearing, the ATF

26:08

agent, who is now deceased,

26:10

was incompetent in an

26:12

assisted living home and

26:15

could not testify about

26:17

what happened. But what was clear

26:19

was Christine was

26:22

convicted based

26:25

on not only faulty

26:27

but false evidence.

26:30

So that takes care of the state's

26:33

case. So Christine's team exposed

26:35

the junk science and the outright falsification

26:38

of the real scientific data that led to our conviction.

26:40

And by the way, these are your tax dollars at work.

26:43

And if you don't think this could happen to you,

26:45

well, don't even get me started that

26:48

there's more to this, and I'm talking about what

26:50

the defenses expert Jamie McCallister testified

26:53

to about how the fire really

26:55

started. Jamie McCallister, who

26:58

is expert in examining

27:01

the victim's chemistry and

27:03

reverse engineering how a fire must

27:05

have started, testified about how

27:08

this fire started. Tony died

27:11

before the fire got hot. He

27:13

died of carbon monoxide

27:16

poisoning. There was no burning

27:18

in his trachea, no burning in

27:21

his lungs, and so he

27:23

had stopped breathing before

27:25

the fire got hot. His

27:28

carboxy hemoglobin rate, which

27:30

is what we referred to as carbon monoxide

27:32

poisoning. It's when the carbon monoxide

27:35

bonds with your blood. The hemoglobin

27:38

was eighty percent. Fifty

27:41

percent is lethal. So

27:43

how did it get that high?

27:46

Well, Jamie McCallister testifies

27:48

that controlled experiment show that

27:50

if the fire had started out

27:53

in the open air of the living room

27:55

or the bedroom, it would have produced

27:58

a lot of carbon diet oxide

28:01

two oxygen molecules. Because

28:03

there's a lot of air floating around

28:06

and very little carbon monoxide

28:09

one oxygen molecule. It

28:11

would have taken ninety

28:14

minutes for the fire to have

28:16

produced enough carbon monoxide

28:19

for Tony to have gotten to a carboxyhemoglobin

28:22

rate approaching eighty percent.

28:25

He would have burned to death

28:27

long before that, and of course

28:29

his lungs and everything else would have burned.

28:32

That didn't happen. So how

28:35

did this fire happen? Well,

28:37

as an electrician testified,

28:40

they were electrical wires that were

28:42

overloaded that ran between

28:45

the roof and the drop

28:47

down ceiling tiles. There

28:50

was an electrical fire that started

28:52

that morning. But because there's

28:54

limited oxygen there, what

28:56

happens is the fire smolders

28:59

and produces a lot of carbon

29:02

monoxide up in the

29:04

ceiling. Now, eventually

29:07

the fire gets hot enough

29:09

so that one of the ceiling tiles burns

29:12

and drops to the floor. That

29:15

undoubtedly is what Christine

29:17

awakens to. Now,

29:19

when that happens, the carbon monoxide

29:22

fills the Tony's room like a

29:24

balloon that is letting out

29:26

its air. Physical tests

29:29

and chemical tests prove within

29:31

minutes he dies of

29:33

carbon monoxide poisoning. That's

29:36

how this fire had

29:38

to have happened. And thus,

29:41

not only was there no evidence

29:44

that Christine was guilty of

29:46

an arson, there was conclusive

29:48

evidence that the fire was

29:50

an accidental fire that

29:52

took place in the confined area

29:55

of the ceiling, and that Tony died

29:58

as everybody knew, of carbon

30:00

monoxide poisoning. But

30:03

in spite of all of this, on June eighth

30:05

of twenty ten, now over fourteen

30:07

years after your conviction, Judge Westhofer

30:10

denied you a new trial. He said,

30:13

quote, while and this is a quote,

30:15

while miss Bunch had new resources

30:18

available to her at the post conviction

30:20

hearing, new experts

30:22

do not create new evidence. The

30:24

issues raised and the conclusions reached,

30:26

while package differently, remained

30:29

basically the same as they were at trial in

30:31

nineteen ninety six end quote.

30:34

He went on to add that he did not

30:36

believe the ATF documents would have changed the outcome

30:39

of the trial. And I mean it

30:41

was exposed that they falsified the findings

30:44

and said the samples were positive when

30:46

they weren't. What the actual

30:49

fuck like And this again, if you don't

30:51

think this can happen to you, and of talking to the

30:53

audience. Now, of course you're wrong.

30:55

A very large percentage of judges

30:58

are elected and others

31:00

are appointed by elected officials. Either

31:03

way, your decisions in the voting

31:05

booth are going to determine who

31:07

ends up on the bench. So and

31:10

my rant back to the story. Meanwhile,

31:13

another Indianapolis lawyer joins the

31:15

team, John Larimore, And

31:17

then we get to the good stuff. Right on

31:19

July thirteenth, twenty eleven,

31:22

Ron who's here with us now, argued

31:25

in front of a three member panel

31:27

of the Court of Appeals of Indiana.

31:29

At the argument itself, it was very

31:32

clear from the questioning of the judges

31:34

that one judge was dead

31:36

set against us. There was nothing

31:38

I was going to be able to say to change

31:41

his mind. One judge

31:43

was for us, and no matter how

31:45

incoherently I babbled, he

31:48

was going to vote for us. And so

31:50

the middle judge, the chief

31:52

judge, held Christine's

31:55

fate in her hand. Our working

31:57

theory, and it made sense, said,

32:00

if the court was going to reverse this

32:02

conviction, they would have done it right

32:05

away because they know she's

32:07

sitting in jail. So we're sitting

32:09

there understanding that the longer

32:11

this goes on, the more likely it is

32:14

we lost. As time

32:16

wore on, despair

32:18

grew, and eight

32:20

of what must have been truly

32:23

agonizing. Months later, Christine,

32:26

on March twenty first of twenty

32:28

twelve, in a two to one

32:31

decision, the panel reversed the

32:33

conviction and granted you a new trial, citing

32:35

the evolution of fire science, as

32:37

well as the fact that the sculptory evidence was

32:39

withheld that quote unquote

32:42

directly contradicted atf

32:44

forensic analyst William Kinnard's trial

32:46

testimony. Christine,

32:48

how did you find out about this momentous

32:51

decision. I got a call to come

32:53

to the counselor's office and

32:56

my lawyers were on the phone to tell me that they

32:58

had reversed my conviction and remanded

33:00

for a new trial. I started

33:02

crying, and I asked them if they called

33:05

my son. I wanted him

33:08

to go that I won and

33:10

I was going to come home. So

33:15

they assured me that yes, they were, they

33:17

were calling him, and I ended

33:20

up I stayed in the counselor's office for like an

33:22

hour and a half because I had back to back calls,

33:25

and she said, you know, she said, we're just gonna

33:28

make this your day, so everybody can

33:30

call and congratulate you and tell you

33:32

the news, and they were just so

33:34

happy for me. Ron. What about

33:36

you, what's your recollection of that phone call?

33:39

I cared beyond measure about

33:42

Christine in this case and getting

33:45

her out of jail, and when it ultimately

33:47

happened, it was as if it was happening

33:50

to my sister. Just

33:52

the most moving experience.

33:55

Although the reality

33:57

comes home of Okay, she's

34:00

not at a jail, she gets

34:02

a new trial, she's

34:05

still sitting in jail. We got to get her

34:07

out of jail. So almost

34:09

five months go by after

34:11

March twenty first, twenty twelve and the amazing

34:13

phone call, all the way to August eighth,

34:16

when the Indiana Supreme Court left

34:18

the Appellate Court's decision undisturbed.

34:20

And then finally about a month after

34:23

that, September first, twenty twelve, seventeen

34:26

years, one month and sixteen days

34:28

after you were arrested, Christine,

34:31

you were finally released into the arms of

34:33

your family. What was that like, Well,

34:35

I mean, when you first walk out, I

34:38

think all you're looking at is the

34:41

dream finally happened, and

34:43

I have so many possibilities. After

34:47

that initial who

34:50

wears off, then

34:52

you're left with all of these fears and

34:54

insecurities. It

34:57

was great walking out and seeing

34:59

everyone, but

35:01

then you know, I'm facing

35:04

another murder trial, so we have

35:06

to start preparing for that. And

35:09

I have, you know, my son, who

35:12

I have to provide a home for, and

35:15

I have to make sure that he has everything

35:17

he needs. He's just sixteen,

35:20

so I don't have a driver's

35:22

license, I don't have any kind of ID, I don't

35:25

have Wrinter's history credits for

35:27

all of these things. I don't even know where I'm going

35:29

to get a job after seventeen years.

35:32

So fear starts to take

35:34

you over, and

35:36

I think that at first I

35:38

was just like, I'm not going to make it. There's

35:41

no way I'm going to be able to make it. And

35:44

that first night, my son

35:46

was showing me on his laptop

35:48

how to set up a Facebook account.

35:52

And while I'm looking at it, I

35:54

see that he has the Appellate Court site

35:56

bookmarked, and

35:59

I said, why do you have that? And he

36:01

looked at me and he said, because I checked every

36:04

day to see if they made a decision, and

36:06

you were coming home and

36:10

I started crying and I

36:12

said, you know, I said, I've been so worried

36:15

and so unsure, but

36:19

hearing that you believed in me and we're just waiting

36:21

for me to come home. I

36:23

can make it through anything. Then

36:34

another and a long line of

36:36

amazing developments in your case happened

36:38

just before Christmas, which must have made that

36:41

time of year even sweeter. The

36:43

prosecution finally came around

36:45

to their senses and dropped the charges,

36:48

which brings us to your next struggle,

36:51

compensation for all that lost time.

36:53

And of course no amount of money could

36:55

be enough to repay what you lost, but you had an

36:57

uphill battle and a unique struggle just

37:00

to even get compensation. Can you

37:02

fill us in on that. Yes, So,

37:05

like everyone, I filed a civil suit.

37:07

Clearly people are protected, so

37:11

you have to break through immunity

37:13

to try to sue. The issue is

37:15

the ATF chemist is deceased,

37:18

so I didn't have a leg to stand on,

37:20

and that was ultimately dismissed.

37:23

Compensation. I have been working since

37:25

I've been out, and while I've helped pass

37:28

new legislation in three different states

37:30

working with the Innocence Project, this

37:32

past year we passed compensation

37:36

in Indiana, and then

37:38

when my civil suit was dismissed,

37:41

I applied for the compensation.

37:44

You know, it was I think, very

37:47

surreal to receive a letter from them

37:49

saying that just because my

37:51

conviction was reversed and

37:53

I wasn't retried did not mean that I

37:56

was actually innocent. And

37:58

it really, I mean it hurt my feeling because

38:00

I testified before these

38:02

legislators three separate occasions. The

38:06

senators and representatives that pass

38:08

this bill used my case to

38:10

pass this compensation bill, and

38:13

then you're going to basically

38:16

retry me all over again. So

38:18

are they really trying to relitigate

38:20

this case? No, they are not. But

38:23

as you go through the process, you

38:25

fill out a compensation application

38:28

and then they review it. So

38:31

for them, they

38:33

reached out to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor

38:35

said, you know, no, we didn't have evidence

38:38

at the time to retry this, but you

38:40

know, we aren't going to say we made

38:42

a mistake. They never want to say they

38:44

made a mistake. So I

38:47

had to reach out to everyone I knew, the

38:49

Center on Wrongful Convictions with

38:52

you know, the amazing Laura and I writer and Steve

38:54

Drisen, Ron Safer

38:57

and all of them wrote letters

38:59

and admitted the evidence that was

39:01

used to exonerate me in

39:04

order to show them that I am innocent

39:06

and worthy of this compensation. Twenty

39:09

five years after the fact, they

39:12

are reviewing the application. They've been

39:14

reviewing it since November. Yeah,

39:17

well, let's hope they come to their senses

39:19

and come to the right decision, because I think the right

39:21

thing to do is clear to everyone

39:23

who's listening and to anyone with

39:26

a heart and a soul. So let's

39:28

get to what you're doing now. You

39:30

started an organization called just Is

39:33

for just Us. Just is just

39:36

like it sounds because the situation just

39:38

is, and then it's for just

39:41

us, which means all of us exoners.

39:44

Justice for just Us was started

39:47

by myself and another exonrere that

39:49

came from the Center on Wrongful Convictions and

39:52

one and I just basically wanted to address

39:55

what it was like because when people walk out,

39:57

you don't have a toothbrush, you don't have

39:59

the basic necessities. So

40:02

J for J for short. You know, we're

40:04

helping with boxes. If somebody reaches

40:06

out and says, hey, I need an outfit, I

40:09

need basic hygienes, we put

40:11

that together We've helped take some

40:13

exonorees to the Innocence conference,

40:15

sent out gas cards, cash

40:18

cards, and we've paid rents, we've

40:20

paid bills, and our organization

40:22

allows healthcare providers

40:25

to donate services so they can

40:27

get a dental visit or some counseling

40:29

sessions or a physical

40:32

things that are desperately needed

40:34

when you return. It's such

40:36

an important thing, you know. I've tried

40:39

to devote myself to doing as much as

40:41

I can to help people coming out of the system,

40:43

because it's exactly as you described.

40:45

It's like I call it the second punishment.

40:47

And what I mean by that is most people

40:50

coming out have no support whatsoever. They

40:52

may get forty dollars in a bus ticket and

40:55

then you know, not even a good luck.

40:57

So there are a number of wonderful

40:59

organist stations doing this work, and

41:02

I encourage everyone to support

41:04

just is for just Us. So

41:06

please everyone scroll down on the episode description

41:09

and get involved with Justice for

41:12

just Us. And now this is a part of

41:14

the show, of course that we call closing Arguments.

41:17

So first of all, thank you to our phenomenal

41:19

guests today. The closing argument segment

41:22

works like this, I turn off my microphone,

41:24

kick back in my chair, leave my headphones

41:26

on. Sometimes I close my eyes, and

41:28

we're going to let each of you have the final

41:30

word on whatever you want to talk about. So

41:33

let's go to run first, and then Christine,

41:36

you can just take us out. Well,

41:38

first of all, thanks so much Jason for

41:40

telling this story, for telling the

41:43

other stories. It is so

41:45

critically important to raise public

41:48

awareness of these wrongful

41:50

convictions. We

41:52

have the best criminal justice

41:54

system in the world, but it

41:58

is run by human being, and

42:00

human beings are flawed. They

42:03

make mistakes, they

42:05

at times act intentionally

42:08

maliciously. When

42:10

that happens, it takes enormous

42:13

resources to get the system back on

42:15

track, and so few people

42:18

are able to afford

42:20

those resources or are given

42:22

those resources. So

42:25

what has to happen is

42:27

everybody involved in the

42:30

system. Prosecutors,

42:32

judges, jurors

42:35

have to have an open

42:38

mind. They have to be

42:40

persons of goodwill.

42:43

We as citizens have to

42:45

hold them accountable that

42:48

their jobs are not to get convictions,

42:52

their jobs are to do justice,

42:55

and we have to insist on that.

42:58

We have to enter that jury box

43:00

as citizens, giving credence

43:03

to the presumption of innocence,

43:05

that our constitution requires.

43:08

They're not words. They

43:10

are a critical concept. But if

43:12

we don't pay attention

43:14

to it, if we don't honor it, then

43:17

wonderful people like Christine

43:20

will have their lives robbed

43:23

from them, losing decades

43:26

that nobody can give back

43:28

to them. And so this

43:31

is a call to action. We

43:34

have to be more active, we

43:36

have to be more responsible.

43:39

We have to be accountable

43:43

and make sure that everybody in the

43:45

system is accountable. Christine,

43:50

when I go speak to the community and tell

43:52

them how they can help with

43:54

JAY or Jay, or how they can help

43:56

the Innocence Project, or how they can

43:59

step up and make changes

44:01

within our system. Because it is

44:04

a great system. It is designed

44:07

to work, and we have

44:09

to take responsibility and make sure it

44:12

works. So I know

44:14

that everybody is sitting there saying I don't

44:16

have money to donate, but

44:18

everybody does have to step

44:20

up and say I have something to give here,

44:23

I can vote. I get

44:25

to educate myself so that when I'm sitting

44:27

on a jury, I know

44:30

what I'm listening to because

44:32

the CSI you watch on TV that's

44:35

not always accurate. So really

44:38

learning about these issues, really raising

44:40

your voice and saying you know,

44:42

we need to change some things. That's

44:45

how we make the world better. And

44:48

I encourage all of you to learn about

44:50

this and figure out if you can

44:52

help by voting, by sharing

44:54

our stories, by talking to an

44:56

axonary, by just being

44:59

there. Don't

45:05

forget to give us a fantastic review wherever

45:08

you get your podcasts, it really helps.

45:10

And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence

45:13

Project, and I really hope you'll join me in

45:15

supporting this very important cause

45:17

and helping to prevent future wrongful

45:19

convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

45:21

org to learn how to donate and get involved.

45:24

I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

45:26

Hall and Kevin Words. The music

45:28

in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated

45:31

composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

45:33

us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

45:35

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45:37

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